Go To Your Room

[dingogirl]

Today I told another mother that my daughters (ages 5 and 8) like to fight. She said "My boys never fight because they know they have to get along." I said, "What do you do?" She said "I send them to their room." So now I wonder if I'm a lousy mother because all I do is tell them both to stop fighting. My kids are very spirited, but at least they don't talk back to me, or say they hate me. I notice other kids doing that, but I never tell the parent how to raise their children-to me that seems rude. Every now and then people tell me how to raise my kids. Does anyone else ever get that?

I told my husband and now he thinks we should try sending them to their rooms. How about just seperating them? One site recommended giving them a chore to do to keep their mind off the fighting. I don't know. :(

[gaialice]

Hi Dingogirl,
I really have the same problem and I posted about this a little while ago.
I think the thread is worth reading. Great suggestions.
http://www.mothering.com/discussions/showthread.php?t=383988
Since then, I decreased my interventions in the kids' fight and I have to say I find that things have improved. A bit at least. Good luck to you....

[dingogirl]

Thamks! I really liked Maya 44's advice. I have told the girls to work it out themselves, but I DO need to refrain (more often) from getting involved.

[maya44]

I am glad if I could provide any help.

This weekend I took the girls for a "girls only" weekend of shopping, teas (a chocolate one!) and theater (WICKED, it was awesome!).

They are just so amazing together. They really get along and they really have figured out how to "work it out on their own" when they need to.

We were at one store and all three wanted to buy this cool bracelet. But there was only one. They had some HEAVY discussions about it.

At the end they worked something out. I am not even sure what. But the store clerk told me that she was earning her Masters in Social Work and that "your girls have such amazing and effetive negotiation skills, how did you teach them that" and I said "They taught each other after many years and many fights!" :lol

[aira]

Short on time, but I'm not a fan of "Go to your room."

I'm in favor of intervening in order to advocate for each side, fascilitating discussion about the disagreement. I think it benefits kids to have help in finding the vocabulary they need to express what's going on inside. Sending them away fails to do that, and additionally gives them the notion that they are wrong for having those overwheming feelings. Especially when it snowballs into a fight with another.

You might like the book "Siblings Without Rivalry".

Hope that helps...

[maya44]

Short on time, but I'm not a fan of "Go to your room."

I'm in favor of intervening in order to advocate for each side, fascilitating discussion about the disagreement. I think it benefits kids to have help in finding the vocabulary they need to express what's going on inside. Sending them away fails to do that, and additionally gives them the notion that they are wrong for having those overwheming feelings. Especially when it snowballs into a fight with another.

You might like the book "Siblings Without Rivalry".

Hope that helps...

As I point out in the other thread I have found in more than a decade of dealing with siblings that while "advocating for each side and fascilitating discsussion" sounds wonderful...."that way madness lies" as my mom would say.

As I said in the other thread, but which bears repeating here:

This is not a matter of telling an INDIVIDUAL child to be alone with his feelings. All of my children are welcome to share their feelings. We don't send people away because they are angry or upset. But I do send my children away from me (all together) when they need to work something out with each other.

My presence, I have discovered plays too deeply into the natural rivalry all children have for their parents love and attention. Thus, it fails them miserably in learning how really to resolve a problem with their sibling. Instead they are busy (on some level even subconcious) of trying to figure out "well, if she directed her questions or suggestions to me first, is she siding with my baby sister over me??? Whose side is she REALLY on?)

They may of course have my attention any time they need it. For example, if DD 1 and DD 2 are fighting and I say "guys go upstairs and work it out" about 90 percent of the time they do becuae truthfully they know that this is what works best. And if one does not want to and feels she needs to talk to me about it, they are welcome to do so ALONE (I will also talk to the other one of them about it in private)

What I have found to be a poor idea in practice though, is to act a mediator or problem solver. This they have done a MAGNIFICANT job of on their own with each other.



Moreover sending multiple children together away from you, has NOTHING to do with a time out. It has NOTHING to do with telling a child his feeling are "wrong"

Its saying "you all have a relationship that needs to be worked out and I do not want to be involved with all of you in this relationship. Its yours not mine." That is a simple (though I will admit sometimes shocking) fact. They will G-d willing have this relationship long after I am gone.

Its not telling a person that their feelings are invalid or must be hidden, like a time out is. RATHER, its saying "this realtionship needs to be worked out by you, with the others who are actually part of the relationship."

The book I recomend which has brought joy to my children's relationships with each other is "Mom, Jason's breathin on me" by Anthony Wolf.

[aira]

Well, Maya, I just disagree with you. Perhaps there is an age factor in our different understanding. But I think that young children are not idea role models for each other. Peers raising peers. I think that having a competent caregiver set the direction of negotiation is a more secure way.

I'm sure that older kids are more practiced and can be left to their own to handle conflicts, and that they will ask for help or support when it's needed - if they have been taught that help is available to them in those times.

[ambdkf]

deleting duplicate - sorry!

[ambdkf]

Just agreeing with Aira - which isn't surprising if you read the other thread - LOL!

My girls have the joyful relationship that Maya describes and have for years. We never went through years of fighting to get there. We used the tools of reflective listening, validation and finding a common preference. They are great at it and have a super relationship. So there are many ways out there together you all can find something that works for your family. I'd read both books though and see what makes sense to you and your kids.

[maya44]

So there are many ways out there together you all can find something that works for your family. I'd read both books though and see what makes sense to you and your kids.


I agree. Try to find a way that works for your family. We did "Siblings Without Rivalry" stuff the first few years (unti my oldest was maybe 5 or 6) and it was a DISASTER for us.

I saw the resentments that some of its ideas built in my girls from the what I considered "punishment" of comforting the "victim" in front of the "perpetrator" to the unconcious feelings that I was somehow, someway on the other persons side.


When we started using Anthony Wolf's methods I felt a "change in the air" fairly quickly. While there were "louder' arguments for a while (since I was not telling them they had to calmly work it out), the number actually quickly decreased.

They are so wonderful together now. As they hit the tween and teen years I can see their adult relationship with each other emerging. It is a beautiful thing to watch.

[4evermom]

I'm in favor of intervening in order to advocate for each side, fascilitating discussion about the disagreement. I think it benefits kids to have help in finding the vocabulary they need to express what's going on inside. Sending them away fails to do that, and additionally gives them the notion that they are wrong for having those overwheming feelings. Especially when it snowballs into a fight with another.
Mother of an only speaking here :wink . I think the above is neccessary for younger kids. Now that ds is 4.5, I'm finding he and playmates are doing a much better job of communicating. Since the OP is talking about a 3 and 5 yo, I think some facilitating is neccessary with an eye towards doing less as they mature.

[dingogirl]

we have gotten involved, but i can see that my oldest thinks we're always siding with the youngest (even though we point out to the youngest that she instigated it.) last night they fought and i just let them be. the fight didn't last long. we'll try this approach and see what happens. thanks all!

[maya44]

Mother of an only speaking here :wink . I think the above is neccessary for younger kids. Now that ds is 4.5, I'm finding he and playmates are doing a much better job of communicating. Since the OP is talking about a 3 and 5 yo, I think some facilitating is neccessary with an eye towards doing less as they mature.


I want to make clear that what I am talking about has NOTHING to do with "playmates". With playmates you do not have the issues of feeling like rivals for parental attention and love. Fascilitating with playmates in my mind does not raise the same questions.

But with siblings ages 3 and 5 is prob old ennough to try letting them work it out on their own.

[4evermom]

Oops, got the ages wrong I see. 5 and 8 should be able to work things out usually. 3 and 5, sometimes. I do understand siblings are different (having 6 of them). I just mentioned the playmates because it helps me see my ds's development level. I've seen unhealthy patterns develop in my friend's children because the rule was they must share or get a time-out so the older would just give in to the younger. I've also seen bully situations. I like to think those advocating letting kids work things out on their own discretely monitor the situation from time to time.

[dingogirl]

I like to think those advocating letting kids work things out on their own discretely monitor the situation from time to time.

I think that's a good idea. It seems my eldest child always gives in to the younger one, and then adds "You always get your way."

[ambdkf]

we have gotten involved, but i can see that my oldest thinks we're always siding with the youngest (even though we point out to the youngest that she instigated it.)

Just to clarify, I wouldn't say one or the other instigated something. That would be passing a judgment and would not work for us. My involvement, if needed, is to facilitate communication – helping them use I messages, reflective listening and validating. My involvement is rarely requested now, they have taken the skills and apply them in all sorts of situations. It may be possible for some kids can learn this on their own, I just know plenty of adults that don't have the skills so it is something I'm comfortable sharing and modeling.

[dingogirl]

Just to clarify, I wouldn't say one or the other instigated something.

Yes, I agree. It's what we've done in the past, but not the present.

[Piglet68]

maya, you know I have a great deal of respect for you. :) I have some questions about letting them work it out themselves...

first, where did they get the skills to do this? When they were much younger, did you model stuff like that? Such as what to do when you want a toy and someone else is playing with it? I mean, it doesn't seem to me like very young kids just naturally pick this stuff up. But I do know that after working on this with DD for about a year now (at home with her younger brother, and at school with the other kids) she is getting more savvy at figuring out how to resolve things. I have seen her offer her brother a toy in exchange for something he has that she wants, and doing so without any input from us (the parents). However, most of the time her impulse is to just take it, and use her power over him to get what she wants. She is very open to being guided, but she definitely needs to be taught the skills (she's 3.5).

But I *think* what you are saying is (and correct me if I'm wrong) that once you've taught the girls the skills they need, it's better for them, empowering even, to work things out amongst themselves. I can see that. I mean, I can see it making sense to me. But I can't see that without the idea that, somewhere along the way, they learned the skills to do this from you. Because otherwise what is the motivation for them to not just let the weakest one lose out, and the strongest one win? How do you know that this isn't happening?

[maya44]

maya, you know I have a great deal of respect for you. :) I have some questions about letting them work it out themselves...

first, where did they get the skills to do this? When they were much younger, did you model stuff like that? Such as what to do when you want a toy and someone else is playing with it? I mean, it doesn't seem to me like very young kids just naturally pick this stuff up. But I do know that after working on this with DD for about a year now (at home with her younger brother, and at school with the other kids) she is getting more savvy at figuring out how to resolve things. I have seen her offer her brother a toy in exchange for something he has that she wants, and doing so without any input from us (the parents). However, most of the time her impulse is to just take it, and use her power over him to get what she wants. She is very open to being guided, but she definitely needs to be taught the skills (she's 3.5).

But I *think* what you are saying is (and correct me if I'm wrong) that once you've taught the girls the skills they need, it's better for them, empowering even, to work things out amongst themselves. I can see that. I mean, I can see it making sense to me. But I can't see that without the idea that, somewhere along the way, they learned the skills to do this from you. Because otherwise what is the motivation for them to not just let the weakest one lose out, and the strongest one win? How do you know that this isn't happening?

Well now I really never taught them these skills with each other. We discussed it in the realm of peers, but I tried to keep all teaching out of the sibling arena. But I did not see a baby as someone with whom one could "work it out" and I don't think I started letting them work it out until the youngest was about three.

That being said the oldest DID sometimes exert her "power" over the younger and grab things. But even then I found that the youngest, if not "protected" by me (except to be seperated from her sibling when necessary) had an amazing ability to figure out how to deal with the situation. Get in her "licks" (NOT in a physical sense, but maybe by grabbing the toy at an unsuspecting moment)

My kids NEVER would try to do the kind of things they did with their siblings with their peers. They seemed to quickly catch on that their really is a higher standard with friends than with your sister. Yell at a friend too much and they dont' want to be your friend, but your sister its just different KWIM??

In many cases the negotiations were "rough". For example:

Ellie: "Maya can I have your pink crayon"

Maya: No you smelly baby"

Ellie: I am NOT smelly, you are smelly. [notice no "MOM MAYA CALLED ME SMELLY] Grabs pink crayon

MayA: GIVE IT BACK. I need to color my princesses dress. [Bigger and stronger she wrestles the crayon from Ellie] [But notice no one is informing me about the crayon grabbing. I am listening to this whole thing on a monitor]

Ellie: Well when you are though I am taking it back!

Maya: WHATEVER

a few minutes later

EllIe: Your princess looks pretty

Maya; Thanks Elle Belle, here, take the pink crayon

(this is an approximation of a conversation I remember from a few years back)

Now maybe if I modeled more "polite" conversation and "helped them problem solve" they would have worked out the same arrangment or a better one, but I am not sure they, especially Maya would have felt the same way about things that she clearly did in the end. Nor I think would Ellie.

Its not perfect but it works for us.

[gaialice]

Maya,
I have not yet received the Wolf's book from Amazon (I live in Europe) but I have tried (ever since my post of a month ago) to put your ideas into practice with my siblings' fights. I have to say I find they play a lot more now than they used to and surprisingly the little one now that I protect her less cries a lot less. Hahaaaa....
I now have a couple questions:
1) as you said, when the fighting is getting out of hand, I need to separate them. So, say if they did not work things out by themselves in the crayon example and start to pull each other's hair. I go in and say stop this now. Not working. So, I have to separate them. But the key question is. Who gets to keep the damn crayon? Sorry if it is a stupid question....
2) Do you think it is ever OK that an act of aggression goes unrecorded? When listening from the other room, I sometimes hear an isolated act of meanness (like one takes a crayon from the other and gets a smack) and then if I just do nothing to my surprise they often find a solution for the crayon. However I feel guilty that I let hitting pass by without doing anything. I do try to say later to the victim that it is tough to be the younger sibling and I know because I was a younger sibling ....However I am not cmfortable with doing nothing....

[maya44]

Maya,
I have not yet received the Wolf's book from Amazon (I live in Europe) but I have tried (ever since my post of a month ago) to put your ideas into practice with my siblings' fights. I have to say I find they play a lot more now than they used to and surprisingly the little one now that I protect her less cries a lot less. Hahaaaa....
I now have a couple questions:
1) as you said, when the fighting is getting out of hand, I need to separate them. So, say if they did not work things out by themselves in the crayon example and start to pull each other's hair. I go in and say stop this now. Not working. So, I have to separate them. But the key question is. Who gets to keep the damn crayon? Sorry if it is a stupid question....
2) Do you think it is ever OK that an act of aggression goes unrecorded? When listening from the other room, I sometimes hear an isolated act of meanness (like one takes a crayon from the other and gets a smack) and then if I just do nothing to my surprise they often find a solution for the crayon. However I feel guilty that I let hitting pass by without doing anything. I do try to say later to the victim that it is tough to be the younger sibling and I know because I was a younger sibling ....However I am not cmfortable with doing nothing....

1)
I will ocassionally take the "damn crayon" and say "When you guys can work out using the crayon, let me know and you can have it back" I guess some would consider this "punishment" but I am a believer in removing the source of a problem, TEMPORARILY while the problem is resolved. As soon as they tell me they have worked it out they can have it back. I don't care what "remedy" they fashioned. [If they have been physcially seperated for some period of time I will take the crayon until they are together again, which generally both are happy about because they would rather me have it at that moment that their sibling. Or if I think one genuinely needs the object at the time (like for a school project) I will give it to them in private. ]

2) Yes, I let the hitting go by. Though like you I comment on it to the other one, that it sucks to be hit by your sister. I think the benefits to their relationship of letting it go to their relationship outweigh anything to be gained by saying something. If it were a repeated problem, with one hitting the other, I would talk to that one at a neutral time (not when it is occuring) about why they are doing this, if the feel provoked etc... and why I think hitting is wrong. But it never was really terribly one-sided at any time in our family.

BTY, Wolf's theory is that if you stop taking sides and "protecting" the younger one, the older one will have less resentment and will indeed be more likely to want to play and get along with the younger one. I have found this to be true also.

[gaialice]

Thanks Maya. This really reassures me. I felt so horrible the first time I let a hitting pass. I just thought about what I had done again and again the whole entire evening.
About the "damn crayon" again, wwyd if the one who was holding it refused to give it up? I mean I do not want to pry their little hands open?! I am sorry for all these questions but siblings rivalry is just not easy to handle for me and I found your posts a real lifesaver.

[maya44]

Thanks Maya. This really reassures me. I felt so horrible the first time I let a hitting pass. I just thought about what I had done again and again the whole entire evening.
About the "damn crayon" again, wwyd if the one who was holding it refused to give it up? I mean I do not want to pry their little hands open?! I am sorry for all these questions but siblings rivalry is just not easy to handle for me and I found your posts a real lifesaver.


I would do what I do in any situation like this. First, I would temporarily seperate so the other sib isnt' there shouting "Mama said you have to giver her the crayon" I would say to the other sibling "Ellie, go into the kitchen and put napkins on the table for me please. I am going to take the crayon from Maya until you can agree on it."

Then I'd say to the remaining sibling "Give me the crayon please" and then just stand there and wait for her to give it to me. Normally (like 99 percent of the time) I find that when I do this the pressure of my expectation that they hand it over means that they comply. If they run away or something, I am not going to engage. I would just say later that next time when I ask for it, I expect it.

[gaialice]

:notes2: :Thanks

[Piglet68]

Thanks for your replies, maya. As usual you've given me a lot to think about. And, as usual, I get the feeling this is going to boil down to my personality and what I'm comfortable with and not. I'm storing this all in memory for the future, yet at the same time wonder if I'll be able to go through with it, lol. I'm just not a "non intervening" type of person. :D

[maya44]

Thanks for your replies, maya. As usual you've given me a lot to think about. And, as usual, I get the feeling this is going to boil down to my personality and what I'm comfortable with and not. I'm storing this all in memory for the future, yet at the same time wonder if I'll be able to go through with it, lol. I'm just not a "non intervening" type of person. :D


Well you have to do what you think will work for you and your dd's. They are still really little.

You can try different things and see what works.

I am sure that for some modeling and teaching problem solving strategies work, they did for us, just not in the arena of the sibling relationship.