Have you ever noticed.....

[Alana]

Dh and I have talked about this before. When we look at our dc's eyes, and other dc who are AP's their eyes are lively, and engaging...and just look alive. But when we interact with children who we know are'nt AP'd their eyes are different....kinda lost looking. Has anyone else noticed this, or know what Im trying to say???

[elmh23]

I've noticed it in my nephews. Very depressing.

[boomingranny]

contrary to the myth of superior parenting...I've met wonderful, happy "mainstream" kids with twinkles in their eye.

Cheers

[trini]

No. I've never noticed that.

[mamawanabe]

No, my non-ap'd nieces sparkle and shimmer with joy and life.

[Yooper]

No I have not noticed that.

But what I have noticed is that some babies and small children seem very surprised when I greet them by looking in their eyes. I was reading in "Hold on to Your Kids" that part of helping to create adult orientation is to make a point to greet small children just as you do adults. So I started making a conscious effort to do this with the other children in my life and they seem shocked almost.

[Storm Bride]

I've noticed that ds1 has kept that...don't know how to describe it. DS1 is 13 in March, and I noticed about four or five years ago that many of his classmates were losing their childlike qualities already. They just didn't seem to have that alert, engaged, interested twinkle that little kids have. DS1 still hasn't lost it.

But, I don't know anything about how most of those kids were/are raised. So, I have no idea what factors may have contributed to ds1 keeping his sense of wonder longer than most of his friends. (I'm pleased that he has, though - his father is an absentee crack addict, so I wouldn't have been surprised if ds1 had become jaded at an early age.)

[annakiss]

I tend to attribute that to breastfeeding, actually. I'm sure it's not an absolute correlation, but it does seem to be there. People have always noticed the alertness of my children even since birth. Part of it is temperment too, though I think. DS2 was born completely calm and wide-eyed and has pretty much stayed that way. DS1 was not nursed, but received EBM. Having him in a sling in a kangaroo position helped a lot as well for people to notice how interested and attentive he was because he was up where they could see him. :)

[LovemyBoo]

No.

[Britishmum]

Nope. :)

[Suzetta]

I think that each child has a unique and wonderful look in their eye...regardless of how they are parented. I don't like judging other parents for how they raise their kids-any such attempt will just backfire. Nor will I attempt to make judgements on a childs personality, as no parent or child is perfect no matter how hard we try.

[zinemama]

No indeed.

[Alana]

Perhaps I should clarify, I dont judge children I meet randomly. Im talking about family members and families of young dc that I am aware of how they parent. THey use Ezzo or are highly scheduled and bottle fed...and not fed on hunger cues. Im not all that far away from mainstream either...I co sleep for the first year, and breastfeed, and practice gentle discipline...but that is it. I have just noticed a nearly flat, lost, confused look in the eyes of little children,I have met, that are Ezzo'd. Thats all....its a look that makes me sad....because I remember being little and feeling all unattached and lost.

[oyemicanto]

I know exactly what you mean, but I mostly attribute to what an earlier poster talked about in terms of how adults interact with them.

[TinkerBelle]

Perhaps I should clarify, I dont judge children I meet randomly. Im talking about family members and families of young dc that I am aware of how they parent. THey use Ezzo or are highly scheduled and bottle fed...and not fed on hunger cues. Im not all that far away from mainstream either...I co sleep for the first year, and breastfeed, and practice gentle discipline...but that is it. I have just noticed a nearly flat, lost, confused look in the eyes of little children,I have met, that are Ezzo'd. Thats all....its a look that makes me sad....because I remember being little and feeling all unattached and lost.


I respectfully disagree. I have known people who completely, all-out AP and their children are no happier than those of people who are more mainstream.

Perhaps you are prejudiced because you feel your way is superior? I do not mean that in a rude way. But sometimes people tend to read more into things if they have a prejudice against something.

[Storm Bride]

It sounds to me as though the OP is talking more about kids who are being completely denied real responses from the adults around them, not so much about mainstream parents in general. I wouldn't be surprised to find that children who are made to sleep when not tired, get up when still tired, not fed when they're hungry, fed when they're not hungry, told "that didn't hurt" when it did, etc. have less "spark" than children who aren't experiencing these things. I don't think that's so much "AP vs. mainstream" as "acknowledging that children have needs vs. ignoring children's needs".

[2Sweeties1Angel]

I've been totally AP with DS for the past 2 years--he's 5. He doesn't look happy no matter what I do. He has a deep sadness that I don't think he'll ever lose:(

I guess that's what happens when you're severely traumatized by "Family Services" as an infant. When his twin brother died at 2 mos, 29 days in large part from a DTP reaction, DS was taken away from me (they were trying to charge me with murder) and placed in foster care with strangers for 3 days, then with my grandparents until he was 10 mos old, then with my parents until he was 3. In one day his whole world was ripped apart--he lost his brother, his parents, everything. I'm suprised he isn't more screwed up than he is.

[StephandOwen]

I've been totally AP with DS for the past 2 years--he's 5. He doesn't look happy no matter what I do. He has a deep sadness that I don't think he'll ever lose:(

I guess that's what happens when you're severely traumatized by "Family Services" as an infant. When his twin brother died at 2 mos, 29 days in large part from a DTP reaction, DS was taken away from me (they were trying to charge me with murder) and placed in foster care with strangers for 3 days, then with my grandparents until he was 10 mos old, then with my parents until he was 3. In one day his whole world was ripped apart--he lost his brother, his parents, everything. I'm suprised he isn't more screwed up than he is.

:Hug I am so sorry for everything you and your DS have been through. :Hug

[Alana]

It sounds to me as though the OP is talking more about kids who are being completely denied real responses from the adults around them, not so much about mainstream parents in general. I wouldn't be surprised to find that children who are made to sleep when not tired, get up when still tired, not fed when they're hungry, fed when they're not hungry, told "that didn't hurt" when it did, etc. have less "spark" than children who aren't experiencing these things. I don't think that's so much "AP vs. mainstream" as "acknowledging that children have needs vs. ignoring children's needs".

Yes....that is what Im attempting to say for the most part. I dont feel my way is superior at all. :scratch Im not really talking about happy vs. unhappy. Ive met dc who were raised according the Pearl's methods who were happy. Im talking about young dc...4 at the oldest....who I guess....just look defeated. Children who are on a strict schedule...where if they are hungry and its not time to eat for 45 minutes, are allowed to scream until its time. Im thinking of my poor niece as an example. She was fed on a VERY strict schedule. I remember my mil babysitting her, I was there, and she started fussing, sucking her hands...and was obviously hungry...she was just a few months old. My mil said...its not time for her to eat yet, I was told not to feed her till 4...she still has 30 minutes. Now, my niece is 2, and if food is there she will eat and eat until she vomits. She is happy and outgoing and very sweet, but I just see a lost look in her eyes.

Im sorry if anyone took offense to what I was trying to say...that as usual...did not come out right. Im talking about extreme examples. Not ap vs. what would be considered mainstream. Im talking more about the ability or desire of children to want to connect on a healthy level, with the expectation their need will be met. I guess I have had a lot of exposure to Ezzo'd children or something. I just see a real detachment there. Maybe Im hypersensitive or something....the whole reason I AP my dc, is because if I didnt I wouldnt be able to attach TO THEM. I have a hard time forming attachments myself, because of my upbringing.

So...anyway....forgive me if I caused offense...it wasnt my intention to discuss superior parenting...or inferior parenting. Im just a mom who stumbles along day by day, learning as I go, just like anyone else. i doubt my parenting all the time.

[Alana]

I've been totally AP with DS for the past 2 years--he's 5. He doesn't look happy no matter what I do. He has a deep sadness that I don't think he'll ever lose:(

I guess that's what happens when you're severely traumatized by "Family Services" as an infant. When his twin brother died at 2 mos, 29 days in large part from a DTP reaction, DS was taken away from me (they were trying to charge me with murder) and placed in foster care with strangers for 3 days, then with my grandparents until he was 10 mos old, then with my parents until he was 3. In one day his whole world was ripped apart--he lost his brother, his parents, everything. I'm suprised he isn't more screwed up than he is.
I am very very very sorry that you went through this.

[momto l&a]

I have only seen the dead lifeless look in kids who's parents are overly strick. You know the type who really arent allowed to play, must be seen and not heard type.

[Kristine233]

I guess I cant relate either. I AP and my 2nd child often looks so sad, or at least thats what people think when they see him. He wont make eye contact and if you do get him to look you in the face he starts grabbing his eyes and covering his face. It breaks my heart when all I want to do is see his beautiful eyes and he cant look at me. Am I a bad parent? Is he depressed? Thats what I think other people are thinking when they see him. Truth is he's on the autism spectrum and its a common characteristic of many of these kiddos. Faces are sensory overload for him so he avoids looking at you directly if he can. So I just want to point out that there may be more than meets the eye when you look at a kiddo. :)

[kirei]

I've been totally AP with DS for the past 2 years--he's 5. He doesn't look happy no matter what I do. He has a deep sadness that I don't think he'll ever lose:(

I guess that's what happens when you're severely traumatized by "Family Services" as an infant. When his twin brother died at 2 mos, 29 days in large part from a DTP reaction, DS was taken away from me (they were trying to charge me with murder) and placed in foster care with strangers for 3 days, then with my grandparents until he was 10 mos old, then with my parents until he was 3. In one day his whole world was ripped apart--he lost his brother, his parents, everything. I'm suprised he isn't more screwed up than he is.


I am SO sorry!!!!!!!! :( :bawl: :( This makes me so sad. I HATE that this happened to you. *sigh* It should never happen to anyone. :(

[Stephanie L.]

I notice children and some certainly do seem to "shine" more than others. Sorry if that seems so superficial. I don't always know if it's attributed to AP. (But I'd like to think that helps!! ;) )

[boomingranny]

2sweeties...

Just to let you know that I have friends, we're all old ladies now in our 40's whose childhoods were as difficult if not harder than your son's and they are happy and content. I know it was very hard for him and it may take a lot of time and counseling but there is hope, especially if you don't project his future as bleak but as promising.

Cheers

[bobica]

nope

[Moochie Mamma]

I haven't noticed the lack of sparkle- maybe because almost all of my friends are AP. What I have noticed is that both my children were very alert from day one. Strangers constantly point this out- especially when they they were/are infants. Maybe it's because they are in a sling and high enough to get lots of adult eye contact rather than in a stroller looking at the ceiling.

[2Sweeties1Angel]

2sweeties...

Just to let you know that I have friends, we're all old ladies now in our 40's whose childhoods were as difficult if not harder than your son's and they are happy and content. I know it was very hard for him and it may take a lot of time and counseling but there is hope, especially if you don't project his future as bleak but as promising.

Thanks. That makes me feel a little bit better. It just makes me SO mad that he's had to go through so much and he's only 5. Most of the adults I know have never been through that much.

[mamawanabe]

I also want to say (two sweeties one angel) that there are some kids born with serious, sad ("old") souls." My freind's 5 year old boy is an absolute joy. He's been ap'd hie entire life (she is the best mama I've ever seen), but he was always serious and oldmanish. Like he carries the weight of the world. He is a natural worrier.

You son persoanlity may be innate and not the result of truama.

[SomedayMom]

Can't say that I have noticed that. Every baby I know personally is very loved, regardless of parenting style and they all sparkle with that baby joy of life.

[marybethorama]

Can't say that I have noticed that. Every baby I know personally is very loved, regardless of parenting style and they all sparkle with that baby joy of life.

Maybe I'm hanging out in the wrong place but every baby I see is loved, though many are not ap'ed.

I did meet some kids who are from what I've heard going through a rough time but they are lovely children.

I also have met some ap'ed and/or crunchy raised kids with behavior issues.

[because]

No I have not noticed that.

But what I have noticed is that some babies and small children seem very surprised when I greet them by looking in their eyes. I was reading in "Hold on to Your Kids" that part of helping to create adult orientation is to make a point to greet small children just as you do adults. So I started making a conscious effort to do this with the other children in my life and they seem shocked almost.


:yeah:

[chocomoto]

Yes, I have noticed many babies around here with vacant expressions.
As a new parent, I always thought something was wrong with my ds because he wouldn't sit quietly in a stroller. I looked around and all the other babies were sitting quietly in their plastic buckets staring. I guess they are just used to it.
I don't think I'm a better parent. While all the other moms were peacefully doing their grocery shopping I was envious.

[marybethorama]

Yes, I have noticed many babies around here with vacant expressions.
As a new parent, I always thought something was wrong with my ds because he wouldn't sit quietly in a stroller. I looked around and all the other babies were sitting quietly in their plastic buckets staring. I guess they are just used to it.
I don't think I'm a better parent. While all the other moms were peacefully doing their grocery shopping I was envious.


No there was nothing wrong with your ds but because the babies were sitting quietly it doesn't necessarily mean that they were "trained" to do so. My youngest would sit quietly even when he was mobile. It was just the way he was. Now he's much more active :lol

[Raynbow]

Yep. And where I work (children's crisis level psych), I'm seeing more and more kids with utterly dead eyes. Fish-dead eyes. It's more then depressing, it's scary.
I used to read occasionally about kids who hurt or killed other kids and would think about how horrible that was and be glad that it was sooo rare, but now I really worry, because it isn't as rare anymore - I've actually MET one of those kids. This is why I insist on meeting each and every one of my older son's friends - yes, he's 12, almost 13, but these child murderers/murderesses aren't so rare anymore and it's their eyes that tell you - the utter deadness, the utter and complete cold darkness - there is no other way to explain it. They can be sooooo charming and sweet, but if you really look at them, look into their eyes - there is NO one there. There is no heart, no joy, no feeling. It's terrifying.

[Kincaid]

This reminds me of a teacher in sixth grade who told us you can tell girls who have "ruined themselves" because they have lost the sparkle in their eye. I remember there was this one real wild girl in the class, and I tried to look in her eyes and I saw she had something pale lavendar and sparkly all over her eyelids so I decided she must be "good" after all.
I had no idea it was eyeshadow the girl was wearing, or sex that the teacher was talking about!

I am very much in favor of AP parenting and Gentle Discipline... but I am dismayed by the demonization of "mainstream" parents. Seems to me like *most* parents do indeed love their kids. I really don't get the judgments of women who have children in detachable infant car seats in the grocery store. It's just a tool.

[chocomoto]

I think it's shame in their eyes, certainly for girls that age, and it makes me sad.
I really don't agree with demonizing mainstream parents, and like I said I don't think I'm a better parent. However I do think that children who are left alone frequently and not responded to as babies do show outward signs of this.