My baby is hellbent on being overtired.

[Hazelnut]

This is driving me crazy. It is impossible, IMPOSSIBLE, to get my 7 month-old baby to go to sleep. I've read NCSS like 50 times, plus the sleep chapters in every book I have. He will not go to sleep on his own. If I rock him, it often takes forever and half the time it doesn't work, and then in the day he sleeps for like 10-20 minutes whether I hold him or put him down. If I say forget it and just carry him around in the sling waiting for him to nod off, he often will be awake for hours and get so fussy that I can't put him down. I have no idea what to do. I mean maybe I'm screwing up, but I'm not uninformed. I'm trying to get quieter and sing and rock him and nurse him (NEVER nurses to sleep for naps) and I'm trying to put him to sleep when he appears tired.

At night time he seems to sleep OK and often only wakes once or twice to nurse (the only time he'll nurse to sleep). I feel really lucky with that and I am rested, just frustrated. It's the getting him to sleep that's hard, day or night, but especially for naps. And I don't get why he'll sleep well at night but nap for such brief periods, and wake still fussy. I have no idea what to do. No matter what I do, he seems tired and I get frustrated. He could be yawning and rubbing his eyes and he won't drop off. Do I just send my toddler to boarding school and rock this baby half the day? Just drag him around in the carrier and let him subsist on two or three short naps all day after just 10-12 hours of sleep? He's not fussy all day, but when it seems obvious to me when he's tired. I don't believe he is getting enough sleep. And it's getting worse.

[nannymom]

I have absolutly no advice just tons and tons of hugs. My 13 month old is the same way. It's frustrateing b/c she is so clearly overtired but she just will not sleep well. :irked:

[Heatherb917]

I don't have any advice either, it sounds like you've tried everything. Does he use a pacifier? Although I wish I had never started using one, it is the one thing that helps my ds get to sleep and get back to sleep when he wakes after a short cycle.

We are in the same boat. :hug

[boongirl]

Have you tried talking to his doc or medical practitioner about this? Perhaps there is something wrong, something minor like an ear imbalance or a reflux problem, that is impeding his ability to go to sleep.

However, if he goes to sleep well at night and stays asleep I would say that he is just needing less sleep and longer stretches of awake time. Rubbing eyes and crankiness can indicate he just needs some restful play but not necessarily sleep. I always had a rule that if it took more than 15 minutes to get my child to sleep then she was not ready for a nap. So, we would play a while and try again later. She was only taking 2 naps a day at 7 months and sleeping a really long stretch at night, with brief wakings for nursing. At 9 mos, it was down to 1 nap and at 18 mos, naps became a thing of the past. She just sleeps a lot at night.

[Caryliz]

Just drag him around in the carrier and let him subsist on two or three short naps all day after just 10-12 hours of sleep? He's not fussy all day, but when it seems obvious to me when he's tired. I don't believe he is getting enough sleep. And it's getting worse.

Our 8-month-old ds sleeps an average of 11 hours per night -- right through, with some waking to nurse, though as we co-sleep I'm not certain he actually wakes UP, he just rolls over and opens his mouth :lol . During the day, he takes nice long naps for the babysitter (and I'd give my right arm to know how she does it, since obviously she can't nurse him to sleep and that's the only way he'll go down for me...), but on the days I have him, he'll sleep 20 - 30 minutes 2 or 3 times a day and that's it. So he sounds a lot like your ds, though mine doesn't strike me as being overtired. Maybe this is just the amount of sleep he needs?

Also, I seem to recall reading (was it in Dr. Sears? now I can't remember) that co-sleeping, BF, sling babies tend to sleep more solidly at night and just catnap during the day. So I although the lack of daytime napping (read: time when mom could actually get something done around the house!) sometimes drives me crazy, I don't really worry about ds from a napping point of view.

You mentioned you think it's getting worse -- how so? Can you be more specific?

And in the meantime: :hug to you and hang in there!

:Peace

[irwinleah]

I can totally relate to you with the naptime thing. My baby also NEVER nurses to sleep, except in the middle of the night when she's already half asleep--like yours. In fact, sometimes (and today was especially bad for this) she actually wants to nurse, but then gets drowsy while nursing and begins fighting it. What that means is that she pulls off and on, fusses, and wiggles and squirms all over. And lately she's started bopping herself on the head with the thumb of the free hand (her arm is flailing around) to keep herself awake. Drives me crazy!!!

I, like you, have tried many things. Usually she will go to sleep with her pacifier (which I also hate, but it works for her) and a blanket while I'm holding her, walking, etc. I sing sometimes and that helps distract her--sometimes I sing very LOUD! I know what you mean about putting the baby in the sling and just thinking they'll nod off. When I do that, she ends up way overtired and then it's even harder to get her to sleep. Today she cried a lot when she was tired for a nap--she'll do that in my arms or in the crib. It's aggravating that I don't have a sure way to get her to sleep without a lot of fussing. I will say that she goes through spurts--it seems like a few weeks will be big battles for naptime sleep and then for a while it's not so bad. She also wakes a lot at night, so hubby and I are pretty tired a lot of the time.

I definitely don't think you're screwing up--you're trying your best. My baby takes very short naps as well, she's 6 months old. Naps are generally 30-40 minutes, 3 times/day. The third one is usually the worst battle.

Someone mentioned if going to sleep for naps took longer than 15 minutes, to wait and try again later. I do that sometimes, but only if she's happy during that waiting time. In that case, I figure she wasn't tired enough. If she's fussy, I just continue with the routine. I guess I want her to learn to sleep when she's tired, but I also don't want going to sleep to be a major ordeal. Argh!

I am very sympathetic to you--I know just how you feel. Hang in there, it has to get better.

[Hazelnut]

Thanks for the input. I'm sort of glad I'm not the only one. I mean I know the whole forum is filled with tired parents, but it just seemed weird to me that he's otherwise not a tough sleeper and doesn't nurse every hour all night long, but getting him down is SO hard. He doesn't sleep alone super long, and that's frustrating, but I think that's even more normal and isn't as bad or as frustrating. Yesterday I did start to think that something was wrong, but he does sleep well for long stretches as night, and certainly has his fine, happy periods while awake, so it's not like he's chronically fussing or never sleeps well.

I didn't know that about Sears or someone saying that co-sleeping babies can sleep better and so need fewer naps. It could be that he doesn't need quite as much sleep as I think and he's not always tired- I know that reading that Healthy Sleep Habits book made me totaly paranoid about getting enough sleep and avoiding the overtired state. It was a good point, but he's kind of a lunatic and really goes on about avoiding it.

I meant that it seems like it's getting worse in that it's getting harder and harder to get him to sleep. I don't always trust my instinct about when he's tired, but sometimes it's been a long time and it just seems obvious. I know some babies just fight sleep, but sometimes this is just crazy. And I've tried setting him down while still awake to see if he just wants to be out of arms, but he just wails. If I vent about it everyone acts like I'm a moron for not doing cio. I don't have issues with babies fussing (fussing, not crying) for a few minutes alone when you've tried everything and feel like dying, but he just wails with no sign of abating, so that's a no go.

Last night we had a breakthrough in that I rocked him, and then laid down with him still awake, and he actually sat still and let me rub his back and fell asleep in 30 minutes. That's never happened before, falling asleep while just lying down with me (except for middle of night). Though yesteday was a nightmare before that, so it didn't feel all that victorious. I do use a pacifier. It helps some.

[Caryliz]

I know some babies just fight sleep, but sometimes this is just crazy. And I've tried setting him down while still awake to see if he just wants to be out of arms, but he just wails. If I vent about it everyone acts like I'm a moron for not doing cio.

I SO hear you on that one! I've totally learned that there are some people I can vent to, and some where I just keep mum and let them believe my child is perfect at all times :lol ('cuz we all know there are times when you've had it up to here with your kid, and you don't need useless parenting advice on top of all that :bang)

And despite my ds being a great sleeper, there are times he fights sleep, too. I've heard other mamas say this often comes at a time when they are developing new skills / hitting a new stage developmentally...it's like their brains are still running and they're having a hard time letting go and relaxing. I've definitely noticed a correlation, but also definitely noticed that it passes -- sometimes it takes a week or so, but it does pass! ;)

In the meantime, when he's doing the fight-sleep thing, I'll sit him up in bed (after we've already tried the laying-down thing) with a few toys and hang out with him until he gets wobbly, then try again. Sometimes it takes a few tries, (which of course drives me nuts!), but at least we avoid the outright crying jags.

Lastly -- new discovery -- ds' favorite new bedtime toy is a flashlight! DH picked up a small plastic flashlight with black rubber grip handle at the hardware store, and we give it to ds to play with in the evening. He can't turn it on and off by himself, but it is light enough for him to pick up and handle solo. He loves to follow the light beam along the walls, to put his hand over the light and observe how his palm glows red, put it under his chin and light his face from below a la Bela Lugosi (LOL). Somehow the intellectual stimulation this produces seems to tire him quickly -- plus it has the benefit of being quiet, and something that really only works well when the lights are low. Maybe give it a try?

In the meantime, hang in there, and :Hug !

[blessed]

I know you've probably tried everything already, so my words won't sound like much help. But I'll toss it out there just in case.

There's only been a handful of times that my baby's been in that 'overtired' state, where she was practically manic with fatigue and crankiness, yet seemed unable to drop off to sleep. Mostly this seemed to occur early on, when she was adjusting after we brought her home from the orphange. On those occasions, it seemed like everything I tried to do to help - rocking, walking, soothing - just seemed to make it worse. It seemed like, in her exhausted state, the stimulation just made her more awake and upset.

I found that if I put her down and then stood over her singing softly, that seemed to work better than anything. (She likes Over the Rainbow and Can You Feel the Love Tonight, for some reason. In fact, at the doctor's office when she was sick with fever and pain from an ear infection, she instantly quieted down and snuggled into my chest when I started singing Over the Rainbow :heartbeat .)

She would cry and protest in that sort of 'momma, I'm miserable!' voice, but not in the urgent tone that makes you aware that something's wrong that needs to be attended to right away. As I sang and gently rubbed her back or belly (if this seemed okay. Sometimes touching seemed to irritate her more, in which case I'd hold off), her little wails would get softer and more spread out until replaced by deep breathing, and she'd be asleep.

At first when she was irritable and thrashing about, I'd repeat 'oh no, it's sleepy time. Time for sleeping' in a quiet, soothing voice in between the singing. Now she recognizes those words, and if she's fussy at bedtime I can say them and she seems to understand and soothe down.

I don't think this would be considered CIO, since you're right there comforting baby the entire time ( I guess just edit this out if there's disagreement about that). I certainly didn't consider it that. It just seemed as though she responded best to my presence, but with a minimum of stimulation when she was that worn out.

Normally she falls asleep snuggled up against me, with my arm around her. But in that agitated state, normal stuff didn't seem to comfort her like the soft singing and light touch did.

[danaan]

This thread is very reassuring. Today is the first day I've been with dd by myself with both of us sick with a cold, and I was back to no patience around naps and bed time. In the last week she's started screaming at every bed time. I've read the article on letting them cry in arms twice. Like OP I've read all the sleep books, and I think they've just confused me. At the same time, I don't trust my dd's ability to let me know when it's time to sleep and then go to sleep when I put her down. So I'm stuck between letting her drive and following the "experts." Right now it's worse cuz she's sick (and I'm sick), so I'm at my wits end, but it's been a struggle all along. I even bought an Amby bed in the hopes that would help. It helps in that the bed bounces her to sleep instead of me (for naps), but that's about it.

I think what I need is a way to let go of yearning for me time. Then I wouldn't care so much if she only took a 20 minute nap. THough I worry about her getting enough sleep....... oh, the circles in which I go. :nut

Anyway, I'm convinced that disposition and neurology give a kid her sleep patterns, but I'm really tired of the crying at every nap and bed time (in arms or in the Amby). I'm pretty sure she cries in protest, not cuz anything is wrong.

I guess this is just one huge part of the test that motherhood is.

[Hazelnut]

Yes! Totally- with so many things, but especially this, I feel like I have to constantly lower or alter my expectations. With work or grown up relationships this might not be a healthy thing, but with kids I think it is, because they do change and they change fast. It's still totally frustrating, but when I can actually let go of the idea that I'm going to get free time or things done like I did with just a toddler, then I'm not in the kitchen dripping my Bach's Rescue Remedy into some water with gritted teeth. It's just hard to often remind myself to let go.

We've had some easier nap times since then, so I'm holding on to hope that maybe it's getting a little easier and is just going to get that way sloooowly. Maybe he is in a growth spurt or about to hit a milestone too; I hadn't even thought of that.

I definitely have to take breaks sometimes if it isn't working, even if he's overtired, or I just go crazy. I don't quite trust him to sleep when he's tired either- because he just seems to fight sleep sometimes. And I definitely go in circles sometimes- I'm trying too hard to get him to sleep, not trying early enough, bla bla bla. :nut It's easy to doubt yourself when things don't just fall into place easily.

[4Marmalade]

I am of absolutely no help but thought I would at least chime in and join the club of frustrated parents trying to help their overtired babies get to sleep :wave . Up until about 1 week ago my dd was a dream to put to sleep. I would lay down with her, nurse her and 5 minutes later :zzz . Now I struggle all day long to get her to sleep. I've tried nursing, rocking, walking, slinging, laying down. Unfortunately, the only thing working right now is a car ride. But with a 3 year old ds at home I don't have the luxury of being able to go out for 3 car rides a day. Nor do I want to do that. It's so frustrating....she is so tired, I nurse her and it seems like she almost drifts off and then it's like a big energy buzz. She goes wild for about 10-15 minutes, seems content and then starts fussing again. Poor ds is suffering a bit because when I'm not trying to get dd to sleep I'm holding a cranky baby in my arms. And the saying about good daytime naps = good nighttime sleep is definitely true in this case. I'm soooooo tired. All I can do is tell myself that it's probably just a phase due to either teeth or the start of crawling - she's sooooo close.

But on a positive note....both dd and ds are napping right now. They both fell asleep on the car ride home today and I had successful transfers to bed!! Does it matter if dd is still in her snowsuit and ds is in his winter coat?? :lol. It's a big deal considering ds stopped napping at least 6 months ago.

[sophiekat]

oh I'm so glad I found this thread!
my 5 month old dd is a NIGHTMARE to get to sleep during the day. if she nurses off, she'll nap for about 20 minutes (2 or 3 times during the day), but more often than not she only does that once and then gets SO fussy because she's just so tired. our paediatrician recommended "healthy sleep habits healthy child" but i've not had a chance to get it yet.
She also won't sleep at all unless she's being held or snuggled right next to me (as we co-sleep at night). I would love to be able to have her nap for longer or at least be able to be put down so I could do something as exotic as brushing my teeth, showering, the dishes . . . . :blah
Is that book worth reading? or is there another that has given some more ideas? I'd appreciate any input!

[MBA]

My baby would cry and cry, and required at least 30 minutes of vigorous bouncing for a long phase she had like this one....I gradually let her get used to falling asleep without the bouncing as she became less upset at sleeptimes. Now she'll fall asleep in my arms in the rocker. Good luck :Hug

[Hazelnut]

oooh that transfer can be so tough! It should be an olympic event.

[Hazelnut]

Oh okay, I had it on reply for about six hours, then hit send and whaddya know there were more replies. I'm sure Healthy Sleep Habits is not a favorite around here. He's pretty extreme in his cry it out program, and pretty crazy in everything actually. I didn't much care for his language which was even harsh (calling kids fussy brats, etc.) I read it b/c everyone and their brother, sister, and pediatrician recommends it. What I did get out of it was the importance of sleep, and how it's important to try and put babies to sleep before they get too overtired, etc. So there's some pointers in it, but even that gets extreme. I think he went so far to blame lifelong sleep problems and behavioral disorders on lack of sleep as a child, so it totally made me paranoid about avoiding the dreaded overtired state. A lot of people like Pantley's No Cry Sleep Solution. I thought it was OK. The sleep chapters in some basic books like Penelope Leach's and Dr. Sear's books drive me nuts. They're like "oh just pat your baby and hush and rock, and maybe you'll have to put them down two or three times and that's that." If there's another good sleep book out there I'd like to know too, but nowadays I'm not sure I'd have time to read past the intro.

I'm glad I'm not the only one doing some repetitive wiggly, shushing dance around the living room for ages to get my baby to sleep.

[freyja23]

[QUOTE=Hazelnut] The sleep chapters in some basic books like Penelope Leach's and Dr. Sear's books drive me nuts. They're like "oh just pat your baby and hush and rock, and maybe you'll have to put them down two or three times and that's that."

I hear that!
Sometimes my 9-month old dd just can't let go of her engagement with the world- she'll fight sleep she and I are miserable, both in the daytime and at bedtime. All that advice about soothing sounds, lights, songs, stories, etc. has been laughable. If I try to rock her or hold her to my chest while walking the floor or put her in the sling she'll wail, arch her back and push me away. I can't even hold her unless she's facing out, but she won't tolerate being put down. She just wants to see and do everything, from the comfort of my hip or lap. Patience, humor and strong arms are all that are helping.

Oh and one other thing has helped daytime napping- I stopped trying for the morning nap. For a couple days we've gone out in the morning and done active stuff. She's been more than ready for her afternoon nap by noonish and has slept well. I just hope it's enough sleep. My friend's 6-month old takes no daytime naps at all, sleeps 12 hrs at night and seems very happy.