Natural Consequences - quick help pls!

[lab]

I would love to hear from anyone with suggestions but especially would like to hear from moms with pre-teen or teens.


I have a question about Natural Consequences and school. My ds12 slows me down every morning. Honestly, every morning! He is grumpy and cannot stay on task. My life's mission is to wait on him.

No real biggie except that this morning we were on target (2nd grader and 4th grader and him). I had to ask him several times to brush his teeth but he finally got moving. I needed to go upstairs and brush my teeth, so I reminded him before I went to get his glasses shoes and socks and get in the car. As I went up, he was in the rec room. :nut When I questioned him, he said he was feeding the birds. I told him the birds were fine (I had fed them yesterday) and to get ready. I told him I didn't want to have to wait on him. I spend about 6 minutes in my room and when I get finished, he is still in the rec room! :flipped

I fuss at him to come on, he still doesn't have his shoes and socks on. So he gets downstairs and has to PACK UP HIS BOOKBAG! Then he remembers his review sheet that he left upstairs. UGH!

Anyway, we get in the car and head out and he has forgetten his glasses.

My question is, do I take him his glasses. He will get a headache if I don't. But he does this every morning to me. He made very poor choices this morning so he should have to deal right?

He asked me in the car to bring his glasses to school. I explained to him that while I appreciated him taking care of the birds, he made poor choices in getting ready. I reminded him that I had asked him to not forget his glasses and that I wasn't going to bring them. So then he said he would get a headache.

Now I don't know what to do. I've brought him stuff before when he forgets it. But I told him in the car I wouldn't. What should I do? Natural Consequences dictate that he should do without his glasses today. But I don't want him to have a headache.

[SagMom]

I would bring him his glasses--simply because headaches suck.

Then I'd plan to sit down and talk with him, when you're both calm, about ways to prevent this in the future, and brainstorm some ideas.

But today, I'd bring the glasses. Having the ability to prevent my child from suffering physical pain would trump any "lesson" that might be intended. (Plus, the intended lesson isn't always what they get--rather than, "If I forget my glasses, I'll get a headache, therefore, I'll never forget my glasses again." he might end up with, "Mom doesn't care about me." kwim?)

[Dar]

I agree. I don't think suffering is the best way to learn things. Better for him to learn that his mom cares about his well-being and is willing to go out of her way to prevent his having a headache.

My 13 year old has found that making lists really help her to organize her time. She likes seeing what she needs to take care of and crossing off things she has completed. Maybe the two of you could brainstorm a morning list for your son?

dar

[oldermamato5]

I agree,take him his glasses. *You* would worry about him all day if you don't. And the thought of him sitting there with a raging headache isn't what you want to be thinking of.
Blessings,
Kim

[lab]

Hi Ladies!

Thanks for your help. I went straight to the school after posting my question. I don't know why I even bothered to post. Perhaps writing it down helped me get my thoughts together.

You are right oldermom! I would've worried myself sick. Joan and Dar - good call! He would totally have stuck to the "mom doesn't care about me" line of thinking.

I will have to sit down with him when he gets home. So far this year, I've taken him his glasses about 4 times. I'll just chalk it up to hormones screwing with his thought process for now! :D

It was nice to see him! He knew I would bring them. Little stinker had a smug look when he walked up. :lol

[Bella Babe]

Would it help maybe to (as a family) get everything ready at night as part of your bedtime routine? Each person get there stuff, bag, glasses, etc out and ready to go? I am a morning person, but I know for some, the a.m. is like a foggy cloud until they are up and going for a while.
I am the opposite. The morning is when I clean the kitchen, get stuff ready for the morning and still have time to sit and post on Mothering for and hour. But at night? Forget it, we are lucky if I remember to put away the food from dinner...lol

[mamameg]

My 13 yr old stepson works off a "morning checklist" each day. We made it together on the computer and we just print out clean sheets each week. He can see exactly what has been taken care of, what still needs to be done, etc. It REALLY helped cut out the power struggle that was developing - my reminding, which he always took as me nagging. He feels more in charge of himself and has stepped up accordingly. :thumb

In fact, after working off this checklist for several months, he is now to the point that he doesn't even really need/use it. The habit of getting ready and keeping himself moving along seems to have been set. :thumb :thumb

Oh, and yes, I would take him his glasses. :)

[Maggi315]

mamameg:

What do you do when he ignores his checklist? Or just doesn't do stuff? My girls have checklists too and I find they either ignore the stuff they don't want to do or check it off and flat out lie and say it has been done. I have to run around policing them to be sure it is done and done properly. A constant battle. :irked:

[sporty]

If his headaches are that bad, I would buy an extra pair of glasses to have in his backpack. What if you couldn't have brought them to school? Is he not taking responsibility because he know that if he forgets something at home, mummy will bring it to school?

I would have taken the glasses to school, but not if I had other plans (work, meetings, whatever).

[sporty]

mamameg:

What do you do when he ignores his checklist? Or just doesn't do stuff? My girls have checklists too and I find they either ignore the stuff they don't want to do or check it off and flat out lie and say it has been done. I have to run around policing them to be sure it is done and done properly. A constant battle. :irked:

I've tried the checklist thing, hasn't really worked for us either. I feel that I also have to police my dd.

[ikesmom]

We had this problem and we fixed it. It may sound extreme and harsh but if you keep on nagging they will just keep lingering. I said ok I am going to set a timer and that means you have 10 minutes left to get your little butts in the car or you will go to school as is ex; messy hair, smelly breath, ect. I get up and make sure their uniforms are clean and pressed and make a simple breakfast. The rest is up to them. There were a few times I pulled out of the drive way with them running out of the house mad, but it doesn t happen anymore. I am also making them shower before bed to save AM time. Just beware because now that I have a newer baby they are often waiting on me...LOL

[lab]

Great suggestions! Sounds like morning is a real pain for everyone!

Bella Babe - his glasses were on his dresser. He usually puts them on when he gets dressed. When I noticed he didn't have them, I asked him to go back and he didn't. Like sporty said, he probably knows I'll bail him out and doesn't place a tremendous amount of importance on it. Although he has gotten better. Good point about getting ready the night before. I should make their lunches the night before to save time.....

mamameg, how do you do the checklist?!? Maggi is on the money on this. I would have to police. One thing I have done Maggi is to ask the kids to come to me for the next chore when they are finished with the one I give them. This obviously wouldn't work in the morning, rushing around. But when I do need to get things done, sending them off with a list just begs for chaos with three kids, three years apart. Having them come to me when they are finished cuts down on the madness. It enables me to talk to them and ask them specific questions, instead of assuming they have completed the task and then finding it either is completely undone or wrong. When that happens, they are usually gone and I have to go get them or yell for them, etc etc etc......

Something that does help with morning routine (which is different for every kid) is to feed the kids first. Well, my first born anyway. My third child gets up, makes his bed, gets dressed and brushes his teeth all in 10 minutes without any discussion or reminding. He's awesome. The first born needs to wake up and is usually starving. His frustration simply mounts even with easy things like getting a shirt. It's better if he comes down in his underwear and just eats first. My middle child is somewhere in between. They are all so different. OH! Lists do help. My kids thrive on lists. They enjoy checking off the things they have accomplished. They also enjoy making lists. They argue over who gets to check off the grocery list when we go :love (this of course if assuming the list is something they enjoy!)

[calicokatt]

My kids know what time they have to leave to catch the bus. They may not leave the house until everything is done (hair brushing is our sticking point here) we fought and argued and cried and generally had miserable mornings for years. Until the day that I told them that it wasn't my job to nag and argue. I will remind them once to brush their hair, and do their other things. They will not leave the house until they are ready, but they will not miss school. If they miss the bus, they will WALK there, while I follow with the littler kids in the car. It is 5 miles to school. A VERY long walk, and I probably would only have let them walk about a mile before I picked them up and took them the rest of the way. But do you know, they figured out I was serious and everything is done on time now, usually 15 minutes early, in fact. I never once have had to follow them to school. I don't have to yell, beg, plead, or really do anything. They bring me the brush and I brush their hair, because they figure I'm faster.

[utahandy]

I'd take them to him.

Then for the next week I'd have him go put them in the car before he went to bed.

[mamameg]

A couple of you asked how I get my dss to comply with the checklist.

We made it together and had a converstaion about how he doesn't like me nagging him in the morning and that the checklist was a way for us to put a stop to that, but it would require him fulfilling his responsibilities. In turn, I don't nag him and let him get ready at his own pace.

Also, he understands that we will not go to school untll he is ready and if he is late due to his own slowness, I will not excuse his tardy. Three tardies = detention and he HATES detention. In fact, he likes to get to school early to hang out with his friends before the bell, so he actually gets ready to go pretty quickly and usually has to wait on me. :blush

[CherylAnn]

Hi! I've been a member here for a while, but haven't been here in ages. This is a pet issue of mine. With my kids, it was their lunch. I'm a love and logic mom, but I really don't think my kids ever question whether or not I care for them. If they forget their lunch, it's really unfortunate, but I'm not going out of my way to bring it to them. They won't starve, but they'll be uncomfortable. It only happened a couple times with each dd. They are really careful now to make sure they have what what they need. Especially my oldest dd who has dance 3x a week a needs a good snack and sometimes dinner. One headache is going to be rough, but he probably won't forget again. And if he questions your love now, he'll get over it as you prove to him how much you trust his competence and sense of responsibility and he'll know that you care for him. BTW, both of my dd's were under 8 when they learned their lunch lessons. They go to a tiny private school, so there were no public school rules or lunch rooms to mess with their little lesson. I talked to their teachers so that everyone was on the same page. A funny thing happened recently that may make me a hypocrit. My 8yo dd forgot her lunch, but it had been such a crazy morning, that I did go out of my way to provide her with lunch just in time. She was so sweet and amazingly grateful because in her mind, she had made a mistake and was okay waiting a few extra hours to eat because she understands it's her responsibility. So, not only did she realize how much I care about her, but it was the icing on top of her knowledge that I know how capable she is which really is cake.

Take this with a grain of salt since you all don't know me. Lunch is an easy example. With ds who is 4yo I'm at a constant loss for logical consequences and I'm going to be needing some advice! :-)

[SagMom]

lab, I was glad to see you went back. :)

I was saying on another thread, recently, that forgetfulness seems to be a male teen thing. I'm not sure if I'm joking or not--the more moms I talk with about this, the more agree with me! Ds is about to turn 15 and I've noticed that he's gotten MUCH better recently about remembering things.

He really needed help getting organized. For instance, he'd go into his room to get dressed and a 1/2 hour later would come out in the same clothes. I'd ask about it and he'd go :duh "I got sidetracked." Things like this were happening every day. He wasn't too crazy about my suggesting a list at first. He insisted he'd remember what he needed to, but after a while, he realized that it just wasn't working for him. He asked me for help, so I make a list with him so he can see what's going on each week. We include regularly scheduled things and appointments as well as things he wants to do, phone calls he needs to return, whatever. He likes being able to check items off and feel more organized.

I should point out though, that this is not a chore chart--it's a list of things that HE has identified that he needs to do or remember. I think that's where the motivation comes from.

A basic tenet of my parenting is to treat my kids the way I'd want someone to treat me, so letting them hang when I'm able to help them just doesn't fit with that.

[moonbeam7627]

No, these behaviors are not gender spacific. My 11 yo daughter does them all, and has since about the age of 3 or 4...It was easy to stay calm and take her by the hand and deal with it gently at that time. My question is how do you keep yourself calm when your preteen pushes you this way every morning? I did use gentle disapline and I still want to, but I feel like she is beginning to walk on me and has for a while. I go at the situation with every gentle angle I can come up with, then she will continue to push until I yell...and I am sad to say, latley it has been worse than yelling a few times. Its scaring me because I then get angry at myself, and we have talked about this, and it carrys on. Then she pushes agian later that day until I begin yelling. Its an ongoing cycle and I need some sugjestions to stop it.
Just as an example of whats going on, every night I have to tell her 5 or 6 times that she is to start getting ready for bed. She has a set time to do this every night and still will not even begin until I tell her to then walks around lost. She "forgets" to bring homework home almost everyday, and I have sat in on her class to find out that her teacher goes over EVERYTHING they need about 3 times every day. Its almost like she doesn't care about consequences. Sorry if this sounds like venting. I just figured since the rest of you have teens and preteens you could offer some help.

[lab]

No, these behaviors are not gender spacific. My 11 yo daughter does them all, and has since about the age of 3 or 4...It was easy to stay calm and take her by the hand and deal with it gently at that time. My question is how do you keep yourself calm when your preteen pushes you this way every morning? I did use gentle disapline and I still want to, but I feel like she is beginning to walk on me and has for a while. I go at the situation with every gentle angle I can come up with, then she will continue to push until I yell...and I am sad to say, latley it has been worse than yelling a few times. Its scaring me because I then get angry at myself, and we have talked about this, and it carrys on. Then she pushes agian later that day until I begin yelling. Its an ongoing cycle and I need some sugjestions to stop it.
Just as an example of whats going on, every night I have to tell her 5 or 6 times that she is to start getting ready for bed. She has a set time to do this every night and still will not even begin until I tell her to then walks around lost. She "forgets" to bring homework home almost everyday, and I have sat in on her class to find out that her teacher goes over EVERYTHING they need about 3 times every day. Its almost like she doesn't care about consequences. Sorry if this sounds like venting. I just figured since the rest of you have teens and preteens you could offer some help.

I am not trying to derail your question. But it seems as if this is a recurring problem. It does make me feel more 'normal' to know that I'm not the only one.

My problem is that I have two other children that are 8.5 and 10.5. It is next to impossible to remain calm sometimes.

Moonbeam, it does seem like they don't even care doesn't it! What has helped with my ds was to sit down with him and have a heart to heart. I also sent notes/scheduled conferences with his teachers (looks like you have done this as well). This was important for to get a handle on what was going on. I felt so out of the loop that it actually made things 'feel' more chaotic.

Several of my sons teachers send emails when major events, such as tests, come up. This helps because I am aware of what is going on. Also, I purchased several office products that really help him stay organized. He is basically an organized individual, so this binder really appeals to him and helps him stay on top of things. I also have 'study time' each evening. He will get distracted and lose focus very easily, so he sits at the table and does homework from 4 - 6 or 5-7 each night. In the beginning, I had to be a dictator about it. Just because he was trying to trick me or bully me, but now he knows what to expect and he does it. He is also more honest with me, because he realizes that he is going to have to spend time on homework. Now he is more willing to do it rather than lie about it and insist he doesn't have homework.

The main thing I found was that he needed to feel like he was being heard. I believe he felt so out of control of his life and his decisions that it was bleeding through into other areas. So he stays up later. He has more down time when he comes home. I don't know, little things seemed to make a big difference to him and he was more willing to listen to me when I listened to him.

Cherylann! Welcome to MDC! I know that we are all working our way through parenting in our own way, and I agree that natural consequences are great. I did take from your post that ultimately, my son does realize I love him and I should trust that more. That is a confidence thing for me I guess. I should trust my instincts more, and my instinct that morning was to take his glasses to him. But did I understand you correctly that you allowed your dd to go without lunch? Wow! Perhaps I missed something in your post. I apologize if I'm jumping to conclusions.

Oh moonbeam! About the bedtime thing. I noticed that it helps if I go up with my kids. Of course, I'm going up with three kids so it makes sense for me to do that, but they do tend to get off track easily. So if I'm up there, folding laundry or straightening up the rec room, they tend to get things done quicker and stay focused. Plus, I enjoy hanging back and listening to their conversations. It's fun! Now if we have a weekend or a night where they have plenty of time, it's a stinkin' free for all! :nut

[moonbeam7627]

Thank You for that Lab. I have calmed WAY down since thismorning. She gave me a big hug and kiss when I dropped off the cupcakes to her at school. I also took some time to see that we are both frusterated, see I also became the primary caregiver to my soon-to-be stepson who is now 8 less than a year ago. And I know its hard for her because even though I do all the care and direction, I do not feel comfortable with correcting him more than I would if I were just a babysitter. Although, I can make house rules that take care of problems he creates, like that they are not allowed to be in the bathroom to brush teeth or do any of that at the same time. But she sees that he will do things right before he goes to his mom's house and has a free-for-all and never has to pay any consequences(she is a non-parent). So, I recognized that there are outside stressors and I have some things to change with myself because I can not make her change. But, what we did do was talk about how sometimes we do things because we feel like we don't have any control so we made a deal that as long as she is bringing home all of her homework and getting it done, and we see her working to her full potential, she is aloud to wear anything she wants(she does already for the most part), and do anything to her hair that she wants (not that I would have stopped her before eather). So now she sees what she is in control of and I hope that because these are things that have to do with her personal being, she will start doing better and not try to see how long it takes to hit that funny nerve in the back of my neck. :innocent . Thank you agian for some of your suggestions...and maybe this can help you too.

[CherylAnn]

But did I understand you correctly that you allowed your dd to go without lunch? Wow! Perhaps I missed something in your post. I apologize if I'm jumping to conclusions.

First of all, yes, I did mean for you to understand that your son probably feels confident that you love him. But, no. You didn't misunderstand me. I definitely let her go a few hours without eating. It didn't hurt her. It didn't make her feel unloved. She just had to wait until 3 to eat instead of eating at noon. I don't think we do our kids any favors by reminding them over and over or nagging them to get something done. As other people have mentioned on this board, when we do start nagging, it upsets us and them. I'd rather let her suffer (not that she suffered) through for a few hours than spend day after day nagging her to take it. Or worse, carrying it for her. She's an intelligent, capable, responsible kid and when I start nagging her to do something, she starts to feel like maybe she's not really so capable or responsible. This isn't really as harsh as it seems to sound. I'm still a mom who slinged all of my babies, breastfed them for 2+ years each, STILL have them in my bed almost every night in the wee hours, help them with homework, cuddle them, sing to them, answer their unending questions...but, yes...I let her go without lunch. Both daughters have done it, actually. Don't get me wrong! I get grumpy and yell just like most parents. But after reading the Love and Logic books and really working to replace my behaviors that actually encourage "forgetfulness" with behaviors that help my kids take responsibility for their lives, we're all happier. Just this morning I realized that I have been nagging my middle dd constantly about the state of her bedroom. I'm not helping her self-esteem at all by constantly pointing out her shortcomings. We've had plenty of heart to heart talks about it. I've spent lots of time helping her. She wants it to be clean, too. But, the pattern we've set up isn't working. I've got to figure out a way to help along the natural consequences so that she feels empowered and takes responsibility for keeping her room more clean. Anway...Love and Logic works in our house when we remember to use it and I think it helps us avoid a lot of frustrating confrontations. I wish I could use it on my husband who has traveled 2 weeks of every month for work for the last 2.5 years and STILL "forgets" to tell me what day or even which weeks he is going to be leaving.