Queer Parents Poll [Archive] - MotheringDotCommunity Forums

bjorker

02-12-2006, 02:55 AM

Wow, these results are very interesting so far.

As of now, there are 9 votes. 8 of which are bisexual, leaning more towards women. Nobody has said equally attracted, suprising! I kind of waver in between equally attracted to both sexes, and leaning [slightly] more towards women. I think it depends on the day I'm asked. Since the word "slightly" wasn't in there, I wasn't too sure which box to check.

I probably should have put that I am in a monogomous relationship... but I didn't choose either options. I don't feel monogomous... so I guess I'm hiding from that question. :p I also have a slight window to not be in a monogomous relationship (meaning, DP hasn't totally written it off). Thus I don't feel that it's 100% true, even though I only have one partner. I think too much thought process just went into that ... did it even make any sense? :lol

:blah

mumm

02-12-2006, 06:27 AM

I voted bi/women, monogomous, satisfied. Which really does sum things up. (Although I might say that I am 100% homo, but still find men attractive, but what the hell does that mean? :lol )

Although I have devolped a wandering eye over the last couple weeks! I think after 8 years of being pg, nursing (or both), and ttc with the help of fertility drugs, my hormones have sorted themselves after a recent miscarriage. All of a sudden my kids swim teacher seems hot. :o :o Or the farmer at the local working farm. :shy OMG, what happened to me! :wink :wink

It is interesting to me to see so many women who are married (to men) who identify as/with 'queer'. I don't have issue with it, but it does make it feel as if someone in my shoes (18 years monogomous with a woman, couple kids, house with picket fence, no drama, etc.) doesn't really belong in this space.

pinkmilk

02-13-2006, 09:02 AM

I voted bi and equally attracted to both.I really had to think if I was happy in my relationship!!!But I just had a baby so there's only love in my eyes for one man right now...the little one I just gave birth to!! :heartbeat

CeraMae

02-13-2006, 09:40 AM

venustx

02-13-2006, 09:58 AM

mamimapster

02-13-2006, 10:04 AM

Well,
I voted 100% girls, monogamous, satisfied. However, I have to say that the 100% was hard, because emotionally I'm def. 100% attracted to the woman I married five years ago, and totally monogamous. Sexually I would say I'm 90% Homosexual. Historically even though I came out in High School (to a group of very artsy-punk-pinko friends :throb ) in a surprisingly safe space for the late 80's, I was still in a few relationships with men early on, this was mosly because the pressure on gay people to be "straight" is very strong. Things have changed so much in 19 years. When I came out even though on some level I knew Gay people existed, I didn't know any IRL. All of my life the one thing I knew was that I wanted to have children, and didn't know how that would happen as a Gay person. I was very fortuante in many ways that the most serious het relationship I was ever in happened at the right time. My boyfriend at the time was a wonderful person who happened to have a Gay mom. Aha! So gay people could have children, this changed the trajectory of my life in so many ways for the better.

chfriend

02-13-2006, 03:19 PM

I'm a boring "married" lesbian, happy with the love of my life and our two perfect children.

Really.

earthmama369

02-13-2006, 03:40 PM

To clarify for your later question, I'm bi leaning more toward women, monogamous, and happily married to a man. Dh is just the right person for me, and would be as a man or a woman. I don't know how else to explain it.

mshollyk

02-13-2006, 06:06 PM

i'm monogamous, but i'm trans (future FtM), and i love men so i'm not exactly hetero. *i* think i'm 100% homo, but others wouldn't agree because i don't have a penis. :shrug

Kincaid

02-13-2006, 08:02 PM

100% partnered happy homo lesbian (lifetime penis-free gurantee), mono relationship, with toddler conc'vd together.

karuna

02-13-2006, 09:19 PM

OT, but mshollyk: I'd love to hear about your (future) transition, decision-making, the whole thing, if you'd care to share... a new thread, maybe?? ;) I seem to remember a trans/gender thread a while back, and there were a few of us who don't feel like "woman" is an accurate identity. I've never felt like a girl/woman, exactly, and while I don't see myself changing my biological sex-- I'm comfortable with female genitalia and breasts, etc.-- I'm really interested in (and supportive of) folks who do decide to go that route.

I voted with the majority in the poll, it seems: bi, more into women, monogamous, (mostly)satisfied.

wemoon

02-14-2006, 05:59 AM

cmb123

02-14-2006, 06:34 AM

100% lesbian here, with 3 kids- in a monogamous relationship, very happily so- but not a coparenting relationship, the kids are from a former relationship. My sweetie and I do not live together.

lunadoula

02-14-2006, 02:38 PM

Happily married to another woman, open relationship, TTC our first. I marked "bi and equally attracted" though I don't identify as bisexual because I date all sorts of genders. :)

mshollyk

02-14-2006, 05:29 PM

Diane B

02-15-2006, 09:38 AM

I voted 100% lesbian, monogamous, satisfied with my partner. I mostly lurk around here, partly because we're not parents, just TTC, and on a break now after unsuccessfully trying a lot of fertility drugs so I don't have much to add. I have noticed that monogamous lesbians seem to be in the minority around here, and I was surprised that would be the case in the "queer parenting" forum.

I didn't vote, because no way am I going to say that I'm "100% homosexual" (just a tip: that word went out of use except by the religious right in about 1970, ok?) but I'm a happy monogomously partnered lesbian with one beautiful adopted child - and we are both her legal mamas.

And I don't check into this forum very often because, frankly, most of my thoughts and concerns around parenting have almost nothing to do with the fact that I'm lesbian. I've been out for 23 years, and it's not really a big deal in my life. My guess is that people who are more likely to post here are dealing with issues around sexuality.

That said, I do like to check in from time to time to see if there are any parenting-related discussions.

chfriend

02-16-2006, 06:51 PM

I'm sure you didn't mean this as snarky as it sounds " (just a tip: that word went out of use except by the religious right in about 1970, ok?)." I came out 29 years ago and for all I know this expression is making a big ol' comeback.

I post in here every now and then and lurk a bit as well. My oldest is only 5 and the queer thing showed up as something to help her playmates with when she was 3. We belong to a local queer parents group as well and it helps her to have friends who also have 2 moms.

Some of the folks here are having issues with their sexuality, but lots of them aren't. Being a lesbian is part of who I am as a person and who I am as a mom.

AdinaL

02-16-2006, 07:30 PM

Hi ladies. :love

So, I am back to take over as mod here in QP...

It concerns me A LOT that those of you who are partnered with women exclusively are feeling pushed out, or out of place here. :( It makes me sad!

I am concerned by the turn the forum has taken, frankly, and the mods and admin are discussing it. It seems to be that the forum has moved into a bi-curious, but married type of thing -which is NOT its function.

So, soon I am going to be opening a thread to discuss this with you all as well.

I would hate for any of our queer mamas feel ousted.

:(

PM me if you have thoughts on this, I would like some feed back on what you feel you need out of the forum, and what it is.

CeraMae

02-16-2006, 07:44 PM

Adina:
I know I could pm you, but as starter of this thread I want to state my intentions. I have also noticed a large "bi-curious, married" population on this board, and I have to express my need to have that available.

Being bisexual is part of being queer. It is a tough place to be because we are oftentimes excluded from gay AND straight communities because we fall in the middle. It is important for me to have this place to come to, because in my normal life-outside of the computer- it is a very hard tribe to find (bisexual mamas and dads that is).

Yes, a lot of us are sexually confused, but I don't see that as a reason to exclude us, and I don't see how that excludes the lesbian mamas in here. If nothing else, I envy the amount of confidence and stability that these women have in their lives and I look to them as examples. My whole reason for starting this poll is out of the need to understand the diversity of lifestyle choices and myriad decisions taking place in people's lives. I based the above poll off of Kinsey's Scale that is has been the most dominantly used scale in psychology since the 50's. I know it is flawed and exclusive, but for the sake of simplicity (and I only have 10 poll options) I decided to condense it. I knew it would offend someone out there for not including the right words and/or definitions... but hey, we are human!

I hope that it has not stirred up too much controversy, and I also feel that bi mamas have a place here, too. The fact that we participate in more discussions is, I think, evidence of how encompassing the sexuality spectrum is.

AdinaL

02-16-2006, 07:54 PM

No worries - I am one of the bi, but married genre as well. :) I am certainly NOT talking about excluding anyone from this board. But that is my main concern - a couple of our mamas who are partenered exclusively with women (old and married as they said :wink) are feeling excluded.

I want this forum to emcompass ALL of our queer mamas. Not to be a place solely for discussing be curious about being with a woman, or a place where you have to be exclusively partnered with the same sex to be able to post.

I think that is a delicate balancing act, and I have seen some threads lately that are leading me to believe that we aren't balancing so well. :)

So fear not, this mod has walked both lines, and wants to make this a good forum for the queer community, while adhering to MDC rules. Make sense?

Edited to Add:
I should also state that we don't host relationship threads as such. The rules in Parents as Partners apply here as well. Nor do we host sex threads, so, some of the bi-curious threads aren't appropriate at all. threads about experimenting with women, aren't really appropriate to the topic of parenting, which is MDCs main focus. Hence, this fine line that we are trying to walk, that is not seeming to fulfill the forum's purpose, nor the needs of what is seeming to be quite a few of our queer mamas.

I greatly apologize for hijacking this thread. :( It wasn't really my intention....:shake

mshollyk

02-16-2006, 08:59 PM

:scratch okay, as far as i know, i'm the only fag here. in fact, i got started on my whole gender quest because i felt that i needed to justify how i am queer to people who think i have hetero privilege because i have breasts, a vagina and am married to a man. so i don't understand this whole feeling excluded thing. i could easily feel that way, but ultimately that would leave me with one less very valuable resource--the mamas of great wisdom who post here, be they lesbian, gay, bisexual, bi-curious, trans, translovers, intersex, or straight allies. i'm grateful to read everyone's experiences, even if i cannot relate personally to them.

dynamicdoula

02-16-2006, 10:51 PM

I share this sentiment:

I voted bi/women, monogomous, satisfied. Which really does sum things up. (Although I might say that I am 100% homo, but still find men attractive, but what the hell does that mean?)

I could have written that. :nod

I am very content in my relationship, and I know that if my relationship were to end I would not be interested in a relationship with a man.

Kincaid

02-16-2006, 10:55 PM

I'm another who thinks the slam against "100%" lesbian is snarky. My identity is not a trend or a concept based in a generation's way of thinking. Please don't patronize my self-concept, thanks. That sucks.

Adina, I always envisioned the Queer Parenting boards to be about *parenting* issues that relate to a gay family structure. If Mothering was interested in supporting an "Intimacy/Relationships" forum, this would be a natural place for a lot of that stuff you are referring to. How about doing that and directing those topics there? Ah, but you say Mothering does not want to host sexuality/intimacy content so you don't want to open a forum like that? Cool. So don't allow it here either!
It seems to me it gets allowed here in Queer Parenting because mods don't want to step on any toes with a "marginalized" group :) Which is nice. But I personally think it should be treated the same way mods treat hetero sexuality talk...

And we have talked about this before, a group of us... there are a LOT of lesbian moms out there posting on other boards about queer parenting. Even on BabyCenter. There is a reason they aren't here, and I wish we could turn that around. A lesbian mom coming here for parenting support is not going to want to wade thru coming-out or should we open up our relationship to other people questions. Not that those thoughts aren't valid - they are!!! I just don't understand what this forum is supposed to be about, but it doesn't look like too many gay folks talking about parenting issues. JMHO.

Sincere apologies for getting off topic from the OP. I just wanted to respond to Adina publicly so that it's "out" in the open how I feel (as just one lesbian mom, who happens to be so behind the times she considers herself 100% gay). LOL!

Pynki

02-17-2006, 08:21 AM

I'm not bi-curious, or confused about my sexuality. I am simply bisexual. There's no wondering about it. I'm married to my husband and as happy with a monogamous relationship as I am bound to be. Which means I'm a little unsatisfied with it too. I totally don't get the not "queer" enough to post in the queer parenting forums thinking though.

Diane B

02-17-2006, 08:48 AM

I'm sure you didn't mean this as snarky as it sounds " (just a tip: that word went out of use except by the religious right in about 1970, ok?)." I came out 29 years ago and for all I know this expression is making a big ol' comeback.

No, I didn't mean to be that snarky - sorry. Having a rough day, I guess.

What I should have said is, "I do not care for the term 'homosexual' applied to me as a lesbian. I know that the poster did not mean it in a derogatory way, but in my experience, it is most commonly used by the religious right as a put-down. Different folks in the GLBT community prefer different terms; generally, when you are talking about someone who is sexually attracted to and partnered with women, the word 'lesbian' is a better choice, in my opinion."

There. Thanks for the reminder about tone.

Diane B

02-17-2006, 08:50 AM

I'm sure you didn't mean this as snarky as it sounds " (just a tip: that word went out of use except by the religious right in about 1970, ok?)." I came out 29 years ago and for all I know this expression is making a big ol' comeback.

No, I didn't mean to be that snarky - sorry. Having a rough day, I guess.

What I should have said is, "I do not care for the term 'homosexual' applied to me as a lesbian. I know that the poster did not mean it in a derogatory way, but in my experience, it is most commonly used by the religious right as a put-down. Different folks in the GLBT community prefer different terms; generally, when you are talking about someone who is primarily sexually attracted to and partnered with women, the word 'lesbian' is a better choice, in my opinion."

There. Thanks for the reminder about tone.

lunadoula

02-18-2006, 09:33 AM

AdinaL

02-18-2006, 10:32 PM

Adina - I can't speak for any of the other queer parents here, but I don't feel "pushed out" and frankly I don't personally feel like it is a major issue. I think there should be clarity about what this forum is for, and I agree with Kincaid that if Mothering.com doesn't want relationship/intimacy forums (except as related to parenting) than it should apply the same rules in Queer Parenting.

I love that we have our "own" forum, however I have to say one of the benefits of the "finding your tribe" forums is that they can have a more unfocused discussion on their threads that are not directly related to parenting. I'd like to be free to talk about all things related to being Queer parents in our forum - including TTC, etc. I don't want to have to wade through other forums for that. Does that make sense?
.

We are working on the guidelines about the relationship/intimacy threads in here. Some of them are valid QP concerns, and some of them amount to n more than how to get a date threads...which aren't appropriate on any forum here at MDC. It is hard sometimes to draw that line, without offending folks (having put my foot in it a couple times...:innocent)

I also would like to have this be a place to discuss things related to being queer parents. :nod That is my ultimate goal. Though I would also say that the TTC forum benefits from everyone experience, and the more resources we get there the better, so please come visit over there too!! :D But I think that there is a place for things like TTC threads here as well. :nod

I am trying to find guidelines to present to the other mods and admin. Trying to make this a place where all queeer mamas feel comfy, and like they can talk, and like they belong, while also keeping it about parenting, not about folks' dating lives. Does that make sense? I have suggested changing the name of this forum to Queer Parents (vs. parenting) in order to cover more topics that a relevant to queer parents, not just about parenting. That is a suggestion that is being considered.

It is tough. I feel sometimes that it is expected that all the dating/intimacy threads are okay here, which is odd. I would like this forum to be a resource for queer families as the Fertility Board has become.

I dunno -I have preggo brain -so sometimes I ramble, and get worked up, and yet make NO sense. :lol

thismama

02-19-2006, 11:15 AM

This lesbian vs. queer thing is an age old argument in the queer community. Crappy behaviour goes both ways... slamming "100% lesbians" sucks, as do covert declarations that lesbianism is better or more "pure" than bisexuality... the line about "100% penis free guarantee" comes to mind.

I think it would be great to see bisexual-partnered-with-a-man mamas behaving in ways that respectfully acknowledge the privilege inherent in living a het lifestyle, regardless of one's sexual orientation.

And I think it would also be good to see lesbian mamas respect the diversity of sexual orientations, and welcome bisexual mamas as valuable members of the queer/glbt community.

AdinaL

02-19-2006, 11:23 AM

Have I mentioned that I :love you, thismama? :D

thismama

02-19-2006, 11:30 AM

:D Thanks! :shy:

mumm

02-19-2006, 11:49 AM

Oops. I'm afraid my comment that I don't feel like I belong in this space because I've been happily married (to a woman) for 18 years was taken to mean the wrong thing. I don't feel excluded because there are women married to men, or folks who may indeed be questioning here. It is just that I don't have issues directly relating to my being gay. (or lesbian or whatever the current label is!) And there certainly is not the issue of having to "wade" through those posts. It seems pretty quiet to me.

I've actually had my eyes opened a bit by reading posts here. And I think I may look at/treat others around me (irl) differently because of this.

It all seems good to me. I hope I did not offend anyone by my comment. And if I did I'm sorry.

AdinaL

02-19-2006, 12:13 PM

mumm - no worries! :) Thanks for clarifying. This is a tough topic, and one that is being debated on larger levels than just here -so I may be being ambitious in thinking we can solve it for our little corner of the world.

Kincaid

02-19-2006, 03:13 PM

as do covert declarations that lesbianism is better or more "pure" than bisexuality... the line about "100% penis free guarantee" comes to mind.

Ya know, I responded to a POLL asking me how *I* identified. And this is how I identify. I am a lesbian who does not "do" any kind of penetration, if ya wanna know specifics. This was an "identity" poll, and I shared MY identity.
In NO WAY did I declare covertly or otherwise that lesbianism is more "pure" than anything. I have NO problem with bisexuality. My partner identifies as bisexual, by the way - no, she did not come with a 100% penis free status to our relationship. She would have voted different than me in the poll. No better, no worse, just different!. You won't hear me knocking bisexuality.

Much of gay theory does not include poly under "queer". I don't think if you go to most national gay organizations you will find "poly" as part of the focus. While most gay folks are liberal and count poly as our friends (or also i.d. as poly themselves) I think it relates more to relationships/intimacy than to queer parenting.

The conflict I see here is only when this space is used for "cruisy" purposes and some of us who are here to read parenting stuff are made uncomfotable by that. It's not parenting talk. It's "I am unsatisfied by just my husband and I want to explore that". I am just not comfortable reading those threads here. It feels like when a male-female couple go to gay bars to cruise for women. For the lesbian couples sitting around being watched/appraised, it feels yucky.

Sorry, too much OT.

lberk

02-19-2006, 09:08 PM

I have recently started checking in to this group...I am happily married to my dw, we've been together for 17 years. We have a son and are ttc #2. I'm surprised at the results of this poll- I love the fact that its an open-minded accepting group of women...it is, right?

KieranD

02-20-2006, 12:03 AM

Bi/men (I am equally attracted to both male and female bodies, but I mesh better with personality traits that are typically [though certainly not exclusively!] "masculine", so that tipped the balance for this poll's purposes), poly, satisfied.

To lesbian mamas who feel like they don't belong, is there anything we can do to remedy this? To me, anyway, "queer" is a broad and friendly encompassing word, but if it's getting too dilute for you to feel comfortable with, I'd personally like to know if there's anything any of us can do to respect your space here more. :heartbeat

Best,
Kieran

mamimapster

02-20-2006, 12:20 AM

To lesbian mamas who feel like they don't belong, is there anything we can do to remedy this? To me, anyway, "queer" is a broad and friendly encompassing word, but if it's getting too dilute for you to feel comfortable with, I'd personally like to know if there's anything any of us can do to respect your space here more. :heartbeat

Best,
Kieran

Well,
I don't know what would happen to it this time, but I remember someone tried to start a "Lesbian two-mom thread" and it seemed to meet with a cold reception, the discussion got heated, and then the thread kind of died out. Two mama families have some very specific issues that bi/poly with men involved families don't have. Bi women married to men don't usually have the adoption/lack of adoption access issues that we have, the non-bio mom issues, the possibilty of two breastfeeding mamas (boy I WISH I had found mothering and a two-momma breastfeeding thread three years ago!). I don't go to this forum much except to welcome new members and check to see if anything interesting is going on. There was a lesbian TTC thread that I wanted to be a part of, but since we've had to temporarily postpone TTC, It has been hard for me to check it. There are ways in which a two-mama family that does not go by established gender roles, experience AP differently, we have some different strengths and challenges I would love to see this forum discuss these types of issues.

thismama

02-20-2006, 09:30 AM

Well,
I don't know what would happen to it this time, but I remember someone tried to start a "Lesbian two-mom thread" and it seemed to meet with a cold reception, the discussion got heated, and then the thread kind of died out.

It got heated because it turned into a discussion of how other ppl who were "less queer" were "taking over" the board. I had made a comment in another thread about loving Pride as a big party. A poster made incorrect assumptions about my sexual orientation and marital status, and talked about how she felt the non-lesbians were not political in the way she felt was proper. She talked about that in the lesbian two-mom thread, I challenged her, and it blew up.

I can't imagine that a simple lesbian two-mom thread that was not used to judge everyone else would get heated.

Two mama families have some very specific issues that bi/poly with men involved families don't have.

That is true. But bi/poly with men mamas have issues that two mama families don't have. (ETA: I agree with Kincaid that poly is not necessarily queer. But if mamas who are poly are also bisexual, they are queer IMO.)

Certainly there are HUGE differences. Women in het relationships absolutely have privilege that two-mama families don't have. But middle-class married lesbians have privilege that single lesbian or bi mamas living in poverty don't have.

I'm a single lesbian (well I identify as semi-bisexual, but all my relationships to date have been with women). I co-parent with a gay man, a friend who I chose to have a baby with. If I decided only ppl in my situation were the right kind of queer, I'd be posting alone.

I don't understand why bi/poly mamas posting about their issues excludes two-mama lesbian families? Or why two-mama families posting about their issues excludes single lesbian or bi mamas?

My strong preference would be to create a forum culture where everyone feels welcome.

AdinaL

02-20-2006, 12:46 PM

I think that the poly threads are what is bothering me most.

Since they tend to be a discussion of how to navigate having a poly relationship - they don't tend to be about navigating a same sex relationship. Does that make sense?

I also think that it tends to fall under the "alternative lifestyles" camp, which too many people lump being queer into - like it is a choice, or an option. Which I REALLY detest and don't want to see here.

thismama

02-20-2006, 12:59 PM

Many, many lesbians feel that it *is* a choice. The choice/genetics thing is an ongoing argument in the queer community.

For me, I see the poly thing as being a relationship style, like Kincaid said. Poly vs monogamous. So maybe that doesn't belong here.

AdinaL

02-20-2006, 01:09 PM

I won't disagree that bi women HAVE a choice in what gender they choose to date. That is obvious - when you are attracted to everyone, it is easier to choose. :lol I don't think anyone has a choice in who they fall in love with - believe me, there are a couple I would have chosen never to meet(men and women)! :lol But that is not what I was talking about...

I was talking about the straight community feeling that being queer (in ANY form) is a choice. That you can choose to be gay or straight. And all of the less attractive forms that argument may take. :irked: Having poly threads here seems to lend credence to this argument- everyone is default straight, and chooses to have alternative relationships. Make sense? (Still drinking my coffee...not sure if I am making sense.) So yeah, exactly what Kincaid said - about it being a relationship related conversation, or relationship style choice. I think we agree. :D

thismama

02-21-2006, 08:52 AM

Well, what I am saying is that many queer people, many lesbians, feel that it *is* a choice. That we chose our sexual orientation, as did straight ppl, and that the emphasis on genetics is a response to homophobia... "well it's not our fault, it's genetics. So you can't blame us." Some of us see this as a sort of play on the whole "sick" thing, reinforcing it.

That's not my view, I tend to think it is at least partly genetics. But I don't get into that with homophobes. Instead I ask why it is necessary to figure out the "why" of my sexual orientation, when nobody sits around trying to figure out the "why" of theirs. So what if it's a choice? Unless they are arguing that it's a bad choice, who cares? And if they think it's a bad choice, I would rather argue about that.

But yeah, I think we do agree. :lol I am with Kincaid about the poly or monogamous stuff belonging somewhere else. Altho I wouldn't want to see queer poly mamas excluded from posting here. I'd like to see that relationship style seen as valid as much as a monogamous relationship style is.

Kincaid

02-21-2006, 09:19 AM

The discussions of the past can be pulled up with a search if anyone wants to form their own opinions. It is a complex thing, take a look and form your own opinions.

What I hear bi with a guy/poly folk saying is "why can't we all just get along? There is room for everyone." Very fair point. I relate it to this.... think of a lesbian bar. My partner and I go to a lesbian bar to step outside the hetero constructs that dominate where we live. We don't "hate" men by a long shot, we don't dislike associating with straight women, but I see a lot of value in going somewhere that the dominant paradigm has been set aside and we are no longer the minority. So what happens when a lesbian bar gets discovered by girl/guy couples who are feeling "alternative"? What happens when lesbians are the minority?

To me, this space is "alternative" as it relates to sex and partnerships. But it's not a gay-parents space talking about issues related to being a gay parent. That's what I was looking for in this forum.

Seeing threads here about being married to a man but wanting to experiment with a woman on the side... it's just so inappropriate to me. Would that be appropriate at a Rainbow Families meeting? Nope! Would a poly conversation be appropriate at a PFLAG meeting? Heck no! I think we should use some of those same "filters" here. People aren't talking about their sex lives at COLAGE or HRC meetings. Threesome talk is totally inappropriate at a PFLAG meeting, not because those people are close minded or think some people are less queer than others, but because some spaces are meant for certain topics and not others .

Adina, I think it goes back to what the board owners envision for this space. If you do a sort of the thread view on this forum (by post count or number of hits), you will see that the majority of the threads are about sexuality/relationship status. I think it's good to look at what the mods want from this forum.

KieranD

02-21-2006, 09:48 AM

I appreciate the clarification, and I completely agree. While I do consider myself a queer parent (despite currently having het privilege), I acknowledge that discussion of sexuality is not the same thing as discussion of parenting.

It must be really frustrating to see, over and over, "how do I initiate a threesome?" put in the same category as "how do I ensure my child receives the same treatment as the child of a heterosexual couple?".

I read this forum because I know eventually my child will become aware of my sexuality, and I like to be prepared for how he and his/our social circle around us may be impacted. Big thanks to the lesbian and bisexual mamas who continue to share their parenting experiences so I can continue to learn. :)

-Kieran

thismama

02-21-2006, 10:10 AM

It must be really frustrating to see, over and over, "how do I initiate a threesome?" put in the same category as "how do I ensure my child receives the same treatment as the child of a heterosexual couple?".

Yeah, good point.

seed

02-21-2006, 11:14 AM

Pynki

02-21-2006, 11:32 AM

I don't want to discredit anyone concerns here, but it appears the polyamory stuff does come up yearly. Searching this forum only for threads containing the term "poly" brings up a total of 6 threads since 2003. And only 2 threads with the word "threesome" in it, and 2 threads with the word "polyamory" in it. And alot of those threads overlap with each other. I don't think given those number you can say it's an all the time occurence.

I really don't mean to push this thread further off topic, but it seems to be a real misconception of what the bisexuals on this forum are posting about.

Warm Squishy Feelings.
Dyan
:heartbeat

Kincaid

02-21-2006, 12:32 PM

All you have to do is look at the last two pages of this forum to see the focus is mainly on women married to men who are looking for places to meet lesbians, or talk about the crushes they have on women. One that made me chuckle last week was "where are there bars like the women on the L word go to?" I read that to my partner and she rolled on the floor laughing. If I went to the main Parenting thread and posted "Where are there moms like on Melrose Place?" people would throw their cloth diapers at me!

I agree that polyamorists are a mistreated group and maligned group of folks. When all you want to do is love it sucks to be discriminated against. I am all for the right of poly folks. But at the same time, when I am seeking "safe" mental space (like a lesbian bar) part of what I want to be free from is folks who are cruising for a relationship in addition to their heterosexual one.

Pynki, I don't think the disrespect and dismissiveness that lesbians say they feel here is a misconception. For a while someone had the signature "I'm a lesbian and my husband is too." When I come to post about being a lesbian parent in a country where you can have your kids taken away, can't get married, worry about the school systems, etc.... it's mentally icky for someone to tout their husband is also a lesbian (presumably this is a HAHA he like tits and ass too kind of joke). Was that your signature, Pynki, I can't remember?

Doesn't matter whose it was, but please don't dismiss another "yearly" group of lesbians coming forward to complain about the Queer Parenting forum.

And how come we always get so many new members in these threads? I never can figure that. LOL

lunadoula

02-21-2006, 12:40 PM

I just want to make sure that we acknowledge that poly doesn't automatically mean sex-crazed, flakey, or straight-but-kinky. For me, being poly doesn't mean that I don't have sexual boundaries. It means I fell in love with more than one person and am working hard to figure out how to be safe and stable within that.

Seed, thank you for your comment. I was feeling the same way but couldn't formulate what to comment. People have a lot of assumptions I think about what it means to be poly. Not everyone who is poly has a two partners, etc. That's not our situation. There are just us two, and that's how it will stay! :lol

I think having a "two mamas" thread would be great! What I didn't like was the "Monogamous committed lesbians parenting or TTC" thread. We will be two mamas, we're TTC, and we're committed. Does it matter that we're nonmonogamous? Yes, it's important to have our own "spaces" but seriously my life is not that much different than other two mamas TTC.

I agree with seed that as long as discussions stay parenting/ttc/etc focused and don't get into discussions about sex lives I don't think there should be a problem.

I am enjoying this disussion and appreciate people's candor and respect too.

Pynki

02-21-2006, 12:43 PM

Kincaid,

Nope that one wasn't mine. I understand why it was offensive to lesbians though. I think part of the great divide on this issue is that in my experience bisexual women seem to come out later. Usually from a desire to not be "different" if they don't have to be. Most of my gay friends come out in their teens. They would ask anyone who they thought were gay where the other gay people were. I think we're seeing alot of the same thing from some of the bisexual parents who are coming out later here. I don't know how coming out was for you, but for alot of my friends it's been hard on them. Many of the same things come up if you do it later in life too.

Because bisexual and married with kids is really invisible to society at large. I only know one other bisexual mom in my area, and she moved to Arizona. So, now I have no one who even really "gets" where it is that I'm at.

I think part of the reason many of the bi parents post here sporatically or just don't is because they don't feel "queer" enough. They know their issues are different that parents who are single and gay, or gay and coupled.

I hope I'm coming across clearly with the intent I mean.

Warm Squishy Feelings.

Dyan

lunadoula

02-21-2006, 12:49 PM

Because bisexual and married with kids is really invisible to society at large. I only know one other bisexual mom in my area, and she moved to Arizona. So, now I have no one who even really "gets" where it is that I'm at.

Pynki, I very much agree with this. I know a couple of mamas who were in a same-sex relationship, and had kids with their same-sex partner, then the relationship ended and they ended up re-partnering with men (they were both bisexual). It seriously saddened me to see not only how the lesbian community treated them (everyone assumed in both of these instances of course that they were lesbian, not bisexual, so of course were surprised when they repartnered with men) but also watching how they became invisible as queer women. I get the other end of it - people assuming things about me because I'm partnered to a woman.

thismama

02-21-2006, 12:53 PM

One that made me chuckle last week was "where are there bars like the women on the L word go to?" I read that to my partner and she rolled on the floor laughing.

I didn't read the thread, but that could well have been a coming out question.

when I am seeking "safe" mental space (like a lesbian bar) part of what I want to be free from is folks who are cruising for a relationship in addition to their heterosexual one.

But that's just it. This forum isn't Married Monogamous Lesbians Only Parenting. It is Queer Parenting. Women who go to lesbian bars, who happen to be poly in a relationship with a man, are queer just like everyone else. What is wrong with them posting about their relationships as they relate to parenting, just like married monogamous lesbians do? Why does one exclude the other?

For a while someone had the signature "I'm a lesbian and my husband is too." When I come to post about being a lesbian parent in a country where you can have your kids taken away, can't get married, worry about the school systems, etc.... it's mentally icky for someone to tout their husband is also a lesbian (presumably this is a HAHA he like tits and ass too kind of joke).

Yeah that was a very offensive signature. I remember whose it was, she was pretty weird and outrageous in a number of ways, and I don't think she is around anymore.

AdinaL

02-21-2006, 07:13 PM

I feel very uncomfortable with the above comment. A poly relationship has same-sex dymanics within it. For what it's worth, I was in a lesbian relationship for five years before we brought our male partner into it. I hardly think I should lose my queer credentials because of that.

I think perhaps you misunderstand me. :) I am not saying that you should "lose your queer credentials" because you are in a poly relationship. I am saying that those threads have different needs than the QP forum. While there is overlap, they are different things. Navigating a relationship with more than two people with children involved is different than, though just as challenging as, having kids in a monogamous queer relationship. I am not saying that it isn't, I am questioning whether the chit-chat threads belong in THIS particular forum, or whether the belong in Finding Your Tribe, with specific issues threads regarding the queer pairings in those poly relationships housed in QP.

We are looking at what we want for this forum, and it has been brought up more than once that all of these things fit into the general Parenting Issues forum, and that we shouldn't be segregating our Queer Mamas by forcing them to post in QP. Talk of doing away with the forum all together has occurred.

I am NOT comfortable with that idea. And I would imagine that you all aren't either -or maybe you are. Maybe this forum HAS outlived it's purpose, and it is time to move on, and then these issues won't be present - because everyone will be parents on this board, period. (Present company excluded...still. :lol She's cooking as fast as she can! :lol)

But I need to know WHAT people want out of this forum?

I will be undertaking pruning of relationship threads as set down by the rules we applied to Parents as Partners, and the no sex talk rules.

So, removing those....what is left? What do YOU as members need from this forum?

I envision this as a place to discuss the challenges, issues and joys that are unique to being queer with kids. With the definition of queer (for the purposes of this forum ONLY): parents who are involved in a same sex relationship, or parenting in a way in which being queer will present these challenges. (Cause, frankly, until my baby is MUCH MUCH older, being queer is NOT gonna be an issue for me in my parenting - as it isn't with many bi-women monogamously married to men, and I recognize that.)

Does that make sense?

I am trying to nail down a definition, which will be posted as a sticky at the top of this forum. This forum is tough to moderate and has pretty nebulous guidelines...I want those firmed up and be able to give people a "here, this is what belongs in this forum, here is what it is about." Which I can't do right now.

And I am trying to do this without offending anyone, without excluding anyone, and maintaining a safe queer space on MDC.

I know many of you don't know me from Adam (or Eve), but let me give you a little bit of background. I moderated this forum after indiegirl decided she couldn't do it, and only recently handed it over to Raven, as I was feeling a bit overwhelmed. (I also moderate all of Fertility, News & Current Events, Activism and Yarn Crafts.) Raven has had some things come up and I have taken this forum back, as I have personal ties to this subject, and feel like this forum, and sometimes the people in it need an advocate. I am pretty loud about this forum when discussing it with the otehr mods and admin, and very vocal in supporting our queer members. Please don't misunderstand these questions as being non-supportive, or trying to force anyone out. That is certainly not my intent.

I focus on the poly threads (which I know are not numerous) because that is one issue that has been brought up to me, and because it illustrates the problem I am having with the moderation of this forum. It is by no means the only issue, nor the most prevalent. Just the clearest example of a thread that doesn't quite belong here.

Anyway, I am sure I am just pissing folks off now by trying to explain. Suffice it to say that I am truly trying to work for the best interests of everyone here. I just need a bit more input from folks as to what they need.

My apologies if I sound like a giant asshole.

mshollyk

02-21-2006, 07:41 PM

With the definition of queer (for the purposes of this forum ONLY): parents who are involved in a same sex relationship, or parenting in a way in which being queer will present these challenges.

Does that make sense?

not really... :confused:

AdinaL

02-21-2006, 08:02 PM

Okay - in example form:

I ID as queer. I am bisexual, equally attracted to both men and women. I am married to a man, expecting a baby. Any parenting issues that I have are not going to involve my being queer. I don't have to have the discussion with my kids about why they have two mommies, or two daddies and a mommy, or that mommy feel like she should be a daddy, etc. My parenting issues can easily be answered by the hetero populace.

Therefore for the sake of the forum entitled Queer PARENTING - I have very little to post about. Granted that may change, but currently, me posting about my parenting issues, is pretty irrelevant? Whereas someone who has those issues impact their day to day - like you! :) - will likely have more threads to post that are relevant to this forum.

I was not trying to define queer for society as a whole - but for what queer PARENTING issues would encompass. Going to a gay bar to pick up a poential third for a relationship would not be a queer PARENTING issue - it would be an adult relationship issue. Telling your child that there will be another adult moving in to be a part of the relationship that the parents have - would be. Just like discussing The L Word is not a QP issue - it is a Television forum thread. Or how to go about TTC in a same sex couple would go here, but advice on TTV supplements would go in TTC. :blah

CeraMae

02-21-2006, 08:31 PM

AdinaL

02-21-2006, 08:34 PM

For example, two women were going back and forth once on a thread about possibly hooking up and that certainly could have been reserved for pm'ing!

That needs to be reported. That is not appropriate in any forum on MDC. :shake

Pynki

02-21-2006, 08:40 PM

I dunno Adina. My kids are in school and I am openly bisexual. We discuss my bisexuality in front of the kids because it's who I am. I'm not ashamed of who I am. I do worry about what will happen one day when they tell some one at school. :shrug As with most things, it doesn't do me much good to worry about it until it happens. I won't stop being proud of who I am, or stop being vocal in my very small rural area with my children that there isn't anything wrong with who I am, or anyone else who ID's as queer.

I don't face the challenges that lesbian moms face. I don't claim to, but I have issues that are wrapped in same sex identifying that the straight women around me don't.

I'd hate to feel left out of this forum because who I am is bisexual, but what I am is married to a man.

Warm Squishy Feelings...
Dyan
:heartbeat

Kaitnbugsmom

02-21-2006, 09:54 PM

so if I'm reading this right, since I am bi-sexual but haven't been with a woman in over a year, and my current poly fidelitious {sp?} relationship is with two amazing MEN who know and accept and encourage the full range of my sexuality, I am going to be excluded from this forum because in the eyes of admin poly isn't queer enough or even queer at all? is that right?

thismama

02-21-2006, 10:11 PM

mamajama

02-21-2006, 10:14 PM

I couldn't answer the poll accurately. I'm single. I'm neither heterosexual nor bisexual because I see more than two genders. I'm attracted to people's hearts and brains (ok, that sounds gross---I'm not literally attracted to internal organs).

When I'm with my FTM partner, I appear straight because he completely passes. When I'm with a man, I may appear straight but noone knows what we do in the sack---which would NOT seem very "straight" at all. I'm attracted to men who like men. I'm attracted to women. I'm attracted to intersex people. Etc etc etc. Is there a box for me? Please point it out so I can run the other way.

AdinaL

02-21-2006, 10:27 PM

Okay y'all...you can get offended and decide that I am trying to shove people out, or you can HELP ME. please. :(

That was my first thought. It is as inclusive as I can get without moving this forum into a non-parenting forum.

Pynki - your thread about being open about being bi with your kids would most certainly go here. As would any questions about bisexuality and parenting.

Kaitnbugsmom -not what I said. You have a situation in your life in which being queer directly impacts your parenting - does it not? threads regading that would go here.

This forum is called Queer PARENTING. Not Queer Relationships. That is where I am drawing the line for now...because no one has offered a better suggestion - and since I am having a hard time moderating this forum, as did Raven, as did indiegirl, I need to find the purpose and use of this forum. Because MDC doesn't host relationship threads.

I am not devaluing ANY relationship. I am NOT saying that anyone isn't queer enough to post here.

I am saying this is about parenting. This is about being queer and parenting.

So, again, I am throwing out ideas, thoughts, ways to make this forum continue to exist - as I said - it has been brought up that it be removed. So, please, don't get offended, help me out. Give me suggestions, read what I am writing, don't assume that I am saying "You there - you forgot your rainbow pin - GET OUT!" I am not saying anyone can't post here - I am not saying you aren't queer. I am saying the posts may not apply to the forum.

I used myself as an example...I don't have any threads to post about parenting that would belong here. Regardless of how I ID, nothing about parenting in my life at current moment would include being queer. I am not saying that anyone else who is bi and married to a man doesn't have something to post here. Just using that example - that I PERSONALLY, do not have something to post that would belong in this forum.

As much as we try, we can't be all things to all people. We are primarily a parenting board - and as such, there are things we don't host. Mothering has decided that relationship and sex threads are not something they want to host. So, now how do we define the QP board so that people feel comfy posting here and we maintain the integrity of the parenting topic?

I am not the final arbiter - I am not going to radically change the forum in any way. I am getting ideas to take back to the mods and admin.

Please help me out, or I am making decision arbitrarily and the forum may not be what you need/want it to be in regards to queer parenting.

AdinaL

02-21-2006, 10:30 PM

Well, I don't favour restricting posting at all in this forum, but of course restricting seems to be an MDC specialty.

If it must occur, I would prefer to see restriction based on topic (like any queer issue as it relates to parenting) vs. identity (like married monogamous lesbians can do no wrong but the polyamorous bisexuals better STFU coz they're making us look bad).

thismama - please, don't make this into another discussion about censorship. Some things MDC doesn't host - I don't make those rules. I can't change them.

:bawl

I am trying so hard. I have gone rounds with the other mods about this, I have been very vocal about needing this board. Now I need some help.

I am certainly not trying to restrict based on identity - I didn't mean to make it sound that way. If I am then it is because I am a stupid twit - not because that is what I mean.

Okay I give...you all discuss...I am hormonal, pregnant and this depresses me that I am the bad guy. :bawl

mamajama

02-21-2006, 10:34 PM

Adina. it is a tricky situation. I mean, it almost seems impossible to have a designated section for queer parents and not allow members to talk about their reltionship issues. Same as in Parents as Partners, Single Parents etc. What can you do, really other than simply erase every thread that isn't specifically about parenting. I mean, if that's the rule, that's the rule.

thismama

02-21-2006, 10:38 PM

Don't freak out, Adina! :lol I think you're being more defensive than you need to be. I for one write with a bitchy tone and will never turn down an opportunity to criticize MDC censorship. I don't think you're an arsehole, and I don't see anyone else saying that either. Much of it is arguing amongst ourselves about what is "queer" enough.

It did concern me when you said you don't have anything to write about in QP, coz I thought you were extending that to all bi-with-a-guy mamas. So thank you for clarifying.

I think there are some good suggestions here, offered by and for you. Maybe come back with fresh eyes tomorrow and have another look?

:hug

thismama

02-21-2006, 10:46 PM

mamajama

02-21-2006, 10:47 PM

This forum is valuable. Thank you for fighting for it.
:yeah:

Kaitnbugsmom

02-21-2006, 10:50 PM

Adina, this is what bothered me:

I think that the poly threads are what is bothering me most.

Since they tend to be a discussion of how to navigate having a poly relationship - they don't tend to be about navigating a same sex relationship. Does that make sense?

I also think that it tends to fall under the "alternative lifestyles" camp, which too many people lump being queer into - like it is a choice, or an option. Which I REALLY detest and don't want to see here.
{bolding/italics mine}

it seemed by the parts I bolded & italicized that you were bothered by poly relationships and felt they were a choice and thereby something you DETEST and don't want here...

AdinaL

02-21-2006, 10:53 PM

Another thought on the "why we need this forum" - there are many issues specific to queer families. Yes those issues are diverse, as our community is diverse, but they are queer specific issues and there are a lot of them.

Also, many ppl don't feel comfortable posting in PaP or TAO or other forums, because there is a lot of overt homophobia at MDC, and beyond those folks many others just wouldn't "get it." I have also had pm's from queer mamas who only post things that out them here, coz they know ppl IRL and don't want to be outed. This place feels more secluded, safer.

This forum is valuable. Thank you for fighting for it.

This is one of the very reasons I feel this forum is so neccessary - you know I mod N&CE - and that every so often we get some less that openminded person in there, and I have to pull some very homophobic post.

Another idea - how about changing the name and focus to Queer Families? More inclusive - less likely to include dating threads? :scratch This was another idea I threw out to the other mods and admin.

Because really that is what we are shooting for?

I guess I am having trouble pinning down what the forum should be. If we don't host relationship threads, then finding a partner, or dating, or going to gay bars is pretty much out for discussion here - which does limit the scope of conversation.

I dunno - it is a fine line. I am having trouble finding it and know that in order to moderate - I have to have some guidelines...my past practice was to let it all fly under the radar and not really do anything - but that isn't gonna work anymore. :shake

thismama

02-21-2006, 10:55 PM

I like the Queer Families idea a lot.

AdinaL

02-21-2006, 10:58 PM

Adina, this is what bothered me:

{bolding/italics mine}

it seemed by the parts I bolded & italicized that you were bothered by poly relationships and felt they were a choice and thereby something you DETEST and don't want here...

Sorry - I was again - unclear.

I detest the idea that many non-tolerant people have that being queer is a choice. I detest that the argument they use is "alternative lifestyles" and they lump into it everything including poly and gay - in addition to marrying one's dog. :lol

Who you fall in love with is not a choice. That is what I believe.

I don't want to see this forum turned into an "alternative lifestyles" forum, a phrase which I detest. That was a suggestion at one point....:shake

I think all relationships are choices to some extent. :shrug We all choose to be open, or monogamous, or celibate. We don't choose who we fall in love with.

I think faster than I type what can I say?:(

I certainly have no negative feelings toward poly families, I have issues with how to moderate this board, and where poly threads fall.

mamajama

02-21-2006, 11:00 PM

or celibate. (
Well, I'm not exactly choosing celibacy at the moment:lol . Sorry, couldn't resist.

Kincaid

02-21-2006, 11:01 PM

Adina,
I see you as doing a good, but hard, job. A much needed job. A thankless job.

I don't understand why some people have to be so darned confrontational and rude.

I am tired of my "Monogomous committed lesbian parents" thread title being used as an insult. Beth, I have apologized to you publicly and in PM till I was blue in the face. I did not mean for anyone to feel slighted when I created one measley thread. I am so tired of that thread being dogged - there is nothing wrong with a committed lesbian working hard for marriage rights and equal parenting rights to post a thread... is there? Yeah, I left out bisexuals and women parenting with men in that one particular thread that I created. Your circumstance is different than mine. Heck, I could have left out women TTC, not because I don't love them (I dealt with infertilty heartache, let me tell you) but because I was aiming for a support group of lesbian partnered parents.

Thismama, your tone is so confrontational when we talk about this. It's hard for me not to feel attacked when I read your posts. If I hurt you in some way by wanting to pair-up with other committed lesbian moms, I again apologize. I offered to move that thread into Tribal areas and out of the QUEER board just to make people happy. *I* felt shut down in creating that thread. Am I exclusionary? Do I think I am more queer than others? Do I think you have to be monogomous to have value? No, no, no, no! I think it's crummy that I have to keep hearing digs about that thread when all I wanted was to get support from others in a like circumstance. I mean, honestly, I wanted to basically talk to people in that thread who were already parenting... but then I went back and opened it up to TTC folks because I didn't want people feeling left out. And then people who were "getting ready to TTC in the next year" joined, LOL. Then before I knew it, I was the queer police.

Every time I post on this forum, I regret spending mental energy here. Now my stomach hurts and I need to go to bed, it's midnight.

Adina, I don't envy you this work at all. I apprecaite the MDC community, and I respect the decisions that I have seen implemented across the board. I think people are working for a collective good. I trust the mods and owners to do what's best for the overall health of the site because this is THEIR baby.

AdinaL

02-21-2006, 11:03 PM

Well, I'm not exactly choosing celibacy at the moment:lol . Sorry, couldn't resist.

I KNEW someone was gonna be a smart ass about that! :lol :p

thismama

02-21-2006, 11:22 PM

Kincaid - I find your tone to be very confrontational with me too. I have refrained from responding directly to you, and have instead responded to similar ideas from someone else, to avoid a flamefest. I am trying to be respectful (if somewhat distant) with you coz we tend to get really argumentative really fast. And when I do speak to you I am making a conscious effort to be respectful in tone.

I hope you can hear me on this thing about the "married monogamous lesbians thread" - it was not as simple as other ppl feeling threatened by mamas wanting to connect with each other.

I am the one who initially responded and ended up derailing it. I posted because in the thread you mentioned something I said in another thread, that I love Pride for the big party it is. You said it was an example of how this forum is being taken over by women who come out to party and then go home to "their husbands and their tax cuts," if I recall correctly, while others like yourself have to stay to really fight the fight coz it affects their real lives.

I go home to no husband and no tax cut. I am a single mama and I live in poverty. I came out at 16 as a lesbian, and altho I ID as somewhat bisexual, I have only had relationships with women. I also have a different political perspective on queerness than you do - for me I don't think that assimilating and seeking approval and acceptance from straight people is the best ultimate goal. I fear that goal encourages us to silence the more "out there" elements amongst us, and erases much of what queer folk have to contribute to this culture.

So I don't really support gay marriage, I don't go to Pride to show the straights that we are normal too, etc.

But that is not *less* queer than your perspective, made possible coz I must have a het relationship to go back to. Which is what you were using that "lesbian monogamous" thread to say.

I will repeat that I cannot imagine a thread for monogamous committed lesbians that was not used to judge other people would be disrespected in this forum. I cannot fathom it.

KieranD

02-21-2006, 11:24 PM

I know I'm new here, but for what it's worth I think that this forum should be for discussions about parenting experiences directly related to being in a same sex relationship. :shrug

Just because I identify as queer doesn't mean that *all* my parenting concerns have to do with being queer -- and if they don't, they probably don't belong here. Just a thought. :)

-Kieran

thismama

02-21-2006, 11:44 PM

I know I'm new here, but for what it's worth I think that this forum should be for discussions about parenting experiences directly related to being in a same sex relationship. :shrug

I would amend that to "discussions about parenting experiences related to being queer." I am not in a same sex relationship right now, or any relationship at all, but I still have issues concerning parenting and being queer (ie. mshollyk's thread about having queer paraphernalia in the house).

Kaitnbugsmom

02-21-2006, 11:46 PM

I was not trying to be confrontational or rude. I was hurt and upset by the things I bolded and the way they came across to me, as well as some of the other posts about non-lesbians not being queer enough...

In my ideal world, we would be able to have established {stickied perhaps} ongoing threads for each sub-group as well as just 'regular' threads for all to comment in. That would let up on some of the animosity between posters...

Really, in my world at least, my family is discriminated against just as much as my best friend's, she is a lesbian in an established relationship, seeking invitro since all the adoption agencies they can afford either turn them down outright or tell them they'll never pass the homestudy because of their sexuality... this is po-dunk, after all.. or even another friend who is actively tri-sexual and pagan.. {has had almost everything done to her from tracts forced on her on the job in an automotive plant to slurs written on her windsheild in vagisil and other fun ways, to comments made to her kids about them going to hell and so on... }.

we all face alot of stereotypes and critisism {pardon spelling, it's almost one a.m. and I've been up since four a.m. Tuesday} from the 'outside world' just by being non-mainstream in our child rearing techniques, let alone our sexuality. Beating each other over the head with our individual views of who does and doesn't qualify as 'queer' or who is or isn't having the right kind of issues or whatever.... isn't going to help anyone. I know this sounds so sixties corny that it's not funny, but we do need to band together, or at least agree to disagree on some things and get along.... for the sake of the greater good and all that..

Kaitnbugsmom

02-21-2006, 11:48 PM

AdinaL

02-22-2006, 12:13 AM

This I like:

"discussions about parenting experiences related to being queer" I would add the word "directly" in there.

So a purpose statement being....

The Queer Families forum is for discussions about parenting experiences directly related to being queer.

Kincaid - threads such as the one you started - "married monogamous lesbian mamas" are just fine. :) Just like a "poly parents" thread would be fine, or other "tribal" queer threads. However, as we have had happen in the past, those kind of threads are not just an exempt zone in which you can say whatever you like. We had a big problem with other tribal threads being used to bash other groups...liberals vs. conservatives, catholics vs. pagans. We had to seriously crack down on it. So discussing other members in these threads would be a :nono. But group threads are a good and fine idea...:) It gives more specific focus to the conversation - we have a ton of them on the TTC board (TTC over a year, TTC over 40, The One Thread). :)

Kaitnbugsmom

02-22-2006, 12:19 AM

I like that statement, but I do have a question:

I know trolling for a date is a no no, as is direct or indirect sexual comment. But what about questions in the 'grey' as it were, such as handling being queer in a backwoods society, let alone being a queer parent, or how to tell DCS to keep their nose out of your bedroom without losing your kids, etc...

thismama

02-22-2006, 12:27 AM

I like the statement too. And I vote for including the "grey" areas, and erring on the side of inclusion of queer parenting stuff like Kaitnbugsmom describes.

AdinaL

02-22-2006, 12:28 AM

This is where the line gets REEEEAAAAALLLY fine. :lol And where I have the most problems.

The DCS thread would fit - no question. :nod

The other one - I think would fit under the auspices of a Queer Families forum, though not so well under Queer Parenting....though I would leave it here because it is relevant to how one parent's when the society around them dissapproves as best, and is hostile at worst. And at some point you are going to have to discuss it with your child.

I think those are both fine - I certainly wouldn't move them. :)

Forgive my thinking out loud. :)

The threads that would go away, or to another forum most likely, are ones like how to find a third person to add to the relationship, or about Queer as Folk, or that are just general threads that fit in the general forums. A thread talking about having a crush on someone would go, a thread about how to introduce a new partner to your child would stay. Clear as mud?:lol

thismama

02-22-2006, 12:35 AM

Makes perfect sense to me, Adina. I can't believe I'm saying that to a m- m- m- mod, but I totally agree.

AdinaL

02-22-2006, 05:07 AM

:lol See, we can be okay! :lol

Pynki

02-22-2006, 07:33 AM

That's it. TM's MDC rebel card is being revoked. She just agreed with a mod. (A cool mod, but still! We can't be having that!) Hand it over TM...:giggle

KieranD

02-22-2006, 07:43 AM

Thismama, good amendment. :) That is the spirit I was trying to express, it just got lost in my choice of words.

-Kieran

lunadoula

02-22-2006, 07:44 AM

Kincaid - I'm sorry what I posted upset you. That was not my intention - I was just trying to share an example of why I felt a certain way in the past. I wasn't trying to "dig it up," and I appreciated your past apology, but it doesn't erase how I felt. I also want to say that IMO there is no need to get so defensive. Even if people are confrontational with you. Obviously that is what you are choosing, so it's ok too. I will say that I appreciated when you clarified your first post on this thread. I am another person who misinterpreted what you were saying about your identity, and it's not the first time. You can take or leave that feedback - that people often interpret your posts to be saying something different - but there it is.

Which brings me to my next point...

One thing I notice reading a lot of things at MDC, is people often forget that communication online has it's own special challenges. I forget too - I'm not leaving myself out! :lol We have to check our assumptions about what people are saying and what we assume their tone to be. I don't always succeed, but I try to come at it from a place of assuming the best about people and their intentions, and then ask for clarification "when you said ___ that seemed really snarky to me. Did you really mean _____?" I know it sounds like blah blah social worker speak :lol but I really think it can be helpful. I swear a TON of the disagreements I see around here on MDC are for these reasons.

Which brings me to my second-to-last-point:

Why the heck do people get so worked up on an online message board? :lol Maybe it's because I'm a newbie, but um, my life is not online on MDC. My life is offline, with my family and friends. If I read/see something I don't like, I don't sit up all night stewing about it or let it get to me. Just my personal opinion of course, but I just don't get it.

Last point:
Adina - I agree with your last post as to what content should be ok/not ok. As a person who identifies as poly, I feel that discussion around being poly not related to being a queer parent could go in a designated thread in the tribal areas "Poly Parents/Mamas" or something like that.

Kincaid

02-22-2006, 08:07 AM

Kincaid - threads such as the one you started - "married monogamous lesbian mamas" are just fine. :) Just like a "poly parents" thread would be fine, or other "tribal" queer threads. However, as we have had happen in the past, those kind of threads are not just an exempt zone in which you can say whatever you like. We had a big problem with other tribal threads being used to bash other groups...liberals vs. conservatives, catholics vs. pagans. We had to seriously crack down on it. So discussing other members in these threads would be a :nono. But group threads are a good and fine idea...:) It gives more specific focus to the conversation - we have a ton of them on the TTC board (TTC over a year, TTC over 40, The One Thread). :)

Adina, I have a 100% different "take" on what transpired than Thismama. I understand and support the charter (I don't see it as "censorship" or take pot shots against MDC. I respect this place and am glad for it). I would not want to "diss" other posters.
Within that buddy group, several of us were discussing our feelings related to Pride events. It related to parenting - in that stated I am dismayed that Pride is a big booze-fest when we would like it to be empowering and child friendly (rather than something I am sometimes embarassed to watch, much less expose a child to). I said IMO that folks often use it as a big Mardi Gras and then go home and go back to very straight lives. What I want for Pride events is something that my child and I can be "proud" of, more MLK day than Mardi Gras. That's just my opinion and I thought I was entitled to it. I certainly did not have anyone at MDC in mind when I said this - as a partnered lesbian with a child that was what I was working through and I think it valid and relevent. It was not about judgment.

Adina, I like the way you see threads fitting and not being "ok". But I think there's still an issue with people being quick to come in and shoot down conversations that drives some groups (like same-sex couples) away from posting. If we can't make the atmposphere a supportive one for everybody, then what's the point of the forum? I think MDC has been at this point before where it resolves to work better to "prune" OT threads better from this forum and we come back to this same point again and again.
I'm up for looking at deeper changes - dunno what they'd be, but I'm up for them :) Sorry to chime in with that when everyone seems to be happy with just saying we will "do better about pruning OT threads", but it seems like as soon as the pruning commences there will be cries of censorship and then the line moves back and back farther.

thismama

02-22-2006, 09:56 AM

That's it. TM's MDC rebel card is being revoked. She just agreed with a mod. (A cool mod, but still! We can't be having that!) Hand it over TM...:giggle

*hides under chair clutching tattered rebel card to chest*

Pynki

02-22-2006, 10:01 AM

Fine! DO you PROMISE to stop agreeing with the establishment??? Regardless of how wonderful they are??? *eyes TM warily*

Kaitnbugsmom

02-22-2006, 03:24 PM

Adina- Got it. :) and I like it :)

Lunadoula- Mothering is far from my whole life, but it is what helps me cope with my life. Where I live, AP is considered psycho in the polite circles, and those in our income bracket have less PC terms for it than that. So I come here to be with like-minded people. And I come to queer parenting because the people in this forum for the most part understand the complexities of being different and less than accepted by popular society...

FTR- I never thought of the tribal areas as an appropriate place for queer parenting issues, let alone poly parenting. I guess I misunderstood what queer parenting was about. I for one don't seperate my polyfidelity from my parenting because they are one, each is a vital part of me, and both 'parts' figure in to each decision I make regarding it's counterpart. My decision to stay with my {legal} ex and my beloved has had a huge effect on my parenting life. And my parenting life influenced that decision, and it also influences the way my poly relationship operates... So for me, there really isn't a "parenting as a poly" side and a "just poly" side, kwim....

AdinaL

02-22-2006, 04:27 PM

Well, I can promise that I will do my best. :) I tend to keep a tight rein on N&CE...and the posters there continually tell me I am biased, or censoring or evil, or whatever they come with. :lol

What I am looking for right now is feedback from you all to take back and say "here - this is the best solution the folks who post here and I could come up with. This would meet the needs of the board, and members and me, as mod." At which point I will wait for the inevitable discussion (we aren't free of red tape here either!:lol) and then I will begin implementing changes. And from there on out - we will stick to whatever the final purpose statement is. Which guarantees that not only will I stick to that, but anyone who mods in my place (like when I pop this kid out! :lol) will have the exact same guideline.

Right now this isn't so much about pruning OT threads, it is more about defining what it of topic. You know??

Hopefully - this change will allow more freedom to include everyone. I don't plan on going mushy - even if people get grouchy about the changes. This isn't the first forum that I have had to uphold a reworking on...Activism changed, N&CE from War & Politics, even Fertility changed to include Infertility and Family Planning...:lol

As for the rebel card...:lol Please don't call me "the establishment"!!!! :shake It makes me feel old, and sad.:( :lol I won't tell anyone you agreed with me....:wink

Pynki

02-22-2006, 04:42 PM

Sorry Adina. I love you even if you are establishment. :LOL

thismama

02-22-2006, 04:55 PM

:rotflmao at Pynki and Adina.

thismama

02-22-2006, 04:57 PM

What I am looking for right now is feedback from you all to take back and say "here - this is the best solution the folks who post here and I could come up with. This would meet the needs of the board, and members and me, as mod." At which point I will wait for the inevitable discussion (we aren't free of red tape here either!:lol) and then I will begin implementing changes. And from there on out - we will stick to whatever the final purpose statement is.

Well I like the purpose statement you came up with last night. Maybe do a poll? Do you need more details in the purpose statement? Or do you need to know if folks are in agreement?

AdinaL

02-22-2006, 05:09 PM

I would like to add some more to it - maybe the generic "this space respects all people regardless of...." Just to make it even MORE clear?

Kaitnbugsmom

02-22-2006, 05:12 PM

Kaitnbugsmom

02-22-2006, 05:13 PM

FTR- Adina seems about as non establishment as the rest of us...

tara

02-22-2006, 08:05 PM

I just read this thread. I actually voted in the poll way back when the thread was on page 1 and forgot to come back. I don't come to mdc as much as I used too...

Adina, I think you've done just fine here. I appreciate you clearing up the concerns about your feelings re: bisexual parents (based upon how you feel about your own bisexual parenting, and not thinking you have anything to contribute here, etc). I don't get the vibe that you're trying to exclude anyone. Seems to me that you're doing your best to muddle through this fairly and advocate for this forum. I do get an exclusionary vibe from some of the other posts here, though.

Am I exclusionary? Do I think I am more queer than others? Do I think you have to be monogomous to have value? No, no, no, no! With all due respect, Kincaid, you are the one who used the analogy of a lesbian bar to illustrate your feelings on this topic. Which implies that the bisexual/poly/not lesbian-identified people in this forum are like straight people who hang out in your bar because it's cool.

This forum is not, cannot be, should not be lesbian only while it's called 'Queer'. imnsho. Queer is an inclusive term, which is one of the main reasons I like it and identify as such. I understand the need for exclusive space, really I do. There have been various times in my life that I have sought out space with people who identified just like me because I wanted the comfort and support that comes from not having to defend or explain myself. That space can be found or created elsewhere if need be (or even in a thread or tribe here, as long as it isn't created at anyone's expense). Again, imnsho.

FWIW, I identified as lesbian for ten years. Then my partner changed genders on me and I had to figure out how I wanted to identify. I look straight, but I'm not. I have het privilege I have to take responsibility for, but I'm not heterosexual. Where do I fall when boundaries around queer spaces are being drawn? Am I in or out? All I can tell you is that I am queer as the day is long.

tara

02-22-2006, 08:12 PM

Oh, and I like the 'Queer Families' potential name change and the statement you came up with, Adina. And, it would seem from this discussion that some definition of 'queer' might be useful (I know we're treading on quicksand there, but...) And, while I don't agree with it, I understand mdc's stance on discussion of relationships and sexuality, and that should hold true across the board.

mamimapster

02-22-2006, 08:36 PM

How would people feel about a thread called " the two mama family thread?"

bjorker

02-22-2006, 09:10 PM

I've been reading this thread as it formed, but not saying anything because I think a few buttons of mine were pushed, and I was afraid I'd overstep my bounds a bit. I'm still sorting this out in my head, but for now all I can say is...

With all due respect, Kincaid, you are the one who used the analogy of a lesbian bar to illustrate your feelings on this topic. Which implies that the bisexual/poly/not lesbian-identified people in this forum are like straight people who hang out in your bar because it's cool.

This forum is not, cannot be, should not be lesbian only while it's called 'Queer'. imnsho. Queer is an inclusive term, which is one of the main reasons I like it and identify as such. I understand the need for exclusive space, really I do. There have been various times in my life that I have sought out space with people who identified just like me because I wanted the comfort and support that comes from not having to defend or explain myself. That space can be found or created elsewhere if need be (or even in a thread or tribe here, as long as it isn't created at anyone's expense). Again, imnsho.

:yeah:

thismama

02-22-2006, 09:14 PM

I'd be totally thrilled to see a thread like that, Mami.

Kaitnbugsmom

02-22-2006, 09:18 PM

I made a poly families thread in finding your tribe since it was suggested, though I stand by my belief that I am just as queer as the next person..

mamajama

02-22-2006, 09:19 PM

How would people feel about a thread called " the two mama family thread?"

I would be supportive and welcoming of a thread like that even though I'm a queer, single mama. I'd read with interest, add if I thought I could, or just smile and move on if I didn't feel it was righht for me at the time.

thismama

02-22-2006, 09:19 PM

Wait a minute, why not have that thread here Kaitnbugsmama?

mamajama

02-22-2006, 09:20 PM

Oh and Yeah That to Tara's post. Thank you for the energy and brain-power you put into it...those are two things I'm sorely lacking in lately :o .

mamajama

02-22-2006, 09:21 PM

I made a poly families thread in finding your tribe since it was suggested, though I stand by my belief that I am just as queer as the next person..

That sucks. I'd feel way more comfortable posting about that topic in the queer parents forum for sure.

Kaitnbugsmom

02-22-2006, 09:26 PM

Wait a minute, why not have that thread here Kaitnbugsmama?

cause it was suggested that it would be more appropriate in the tribal areas... so I thought I'd give it a shot.

Kaitnbugsmom

02-22-2006, 09:27 PM

That sucks. I'd feel way more comfortable posting about that topic in the queer parents forum for sure.

so would I... see my last post

thismama

02-22-2006, 09:30 PM

I'd check with Adina, and see if it can be moved, personally. If a two mama tribal thread can be here, why not a poly families thread?

Kaitnbugsmom

02-22-2006, 09:42 PM

since I know she'll be back before the night's done... Adina, please?

mamimapster

02-22-2006, 09:46 PM

Oh yeah, I was proposing that the two mama thread go here (like the trans thread). I would like to see "Queer Parenting" as a kind of safe space (like the Mothering version of GLBT support groups). I would like the two mamas thread to be geared towards mama's who are/or intend to be parenting with other mamas (which would include single Lesbian Mamas). I think if it is too vaguely worded the intention might not be clear. I think it's already been established that Lesbian moms sometimes have different issues than bi-with a guy, trans or poly people and I would like to see a gentle, amiable thread for us to chat in.
Not sure if I being clear enough:scratch but it's really important to me that when two mama/single lesbian parent come here they can easily find safe space. This forumn is the first one I read on mothering. I almost didn't stay because I had a hard time finding a thread here that could help some of my family's specific issues.

mamimapster

02-22-2006, 09:49 PM

Oh yeah, and having once (years ago) been in a semi-poly relationship I believe that thread belongs here too. It's totally not my cup of tea, but it definitely is QP!

AdinaL

02-22-2006, 09:57 PM

I just PMed you about that.

I think we are fine to keep it here for now. A poly families thread fits here just fine.

:)

YOu want me to move it?

Kaitnbugsmom

02-22-2006, 10:25 PM

I just PMed you about that.

I think we are fine to keep it here for now. A poly families thread fits here just fine.

:)

YOu want me to move it?

yes please. I have no idea how to do that here. sad considering I used to mod another board and move stuff all the time

thismama

02-22-2006, 10:26 PM

Yay! Wow, it all seems to be coming together.

AdinaL

02-22-2006, 10:49 PM

Off to move it:)

lunadoula

02-23-2006, 07:21 AM

A re-wording of the mission statement of a board for a queer board, tailored to our non-mainstream views here at mothering... merely a suggestion of course...

A safe, welcoming place that exists to facilitate discussion of the aspects of parenting that are particular to attatchment parenting in a non-traditional lifestyle.

I would like it if it could not use the words "non-traditional lifestyle." I hate anything that remotely sounds like "the gay lifestyle." KWIM?

Kincaid

02-23-2006, 07:25 AM

With all due respect, Kincaid, you are the one who used the analogy of a lesbian bar to illustrate your feelings on this topic. Which implies that the bisexual/poly/not lesbian-identified people in this forum are like straight people who hang out in your bar because it's cool.

Tara, I did not explain myself fully, or you didn't understand my meaning. I absolutely did not say or mean to imply that people "hang out in my bar because they think it's cool." I'm not even thinking about the I kissed a girl, hey hunky guys look at me and get excited coolness factor.
I said that women seek lesbian space because there is a suspension of the dominant paradigm. And that when hetero partnered folks start coming into the space, it reintroduces that paradigm. It's not about being an exclusive club or more "queer" than someone else. I am just pointing out the way the space is constructed and what that does to the minority folk who are within it.

There is a lot of mention on this forum of husbands and what would one's husband think/say/allow (as in, my husband and I have agreed I can do such and so). In the analogy of the lesbian bar, I was just saying that this space is not a suspension of those paradigms. I think some lesbians must be turned off when reading the threads here. Surely there's a reason why same-sex parenting couples aren't posting on this board in general.

lunadoula

02-23-2006, 07:26 AM

I in no way meant to say I didn't think poly family threads didn't belong here, putting them in the tribal area was just a suggestion - it sounds like a lot of people wouldn't be comfortable with that, so obviously not a good idea.

I know a lot of the poly parents on here have shared that they also id as queer. In the community where I live, a lot (if not most) of the poly families I know do NOT id as queer. When I say poly families I am talking about where there is more than a two person partnership (for the purposes of this post) b/c while I consider myself poly (or "consenually nonmonogamous" really, if you want to be specific) I don't consider dw and I a "poly family" b/c there are just two of us.

Is poly necessarily queer? I guess that's why I thought that a thread could be in the tribal area, NOT because I would want anyone to feel excluded, but just because of my own experience with poly families where I live.

tara

02-23-2006, 09:30 AM

Tara, I did not explain myself fully, or you didn't understand my meaning. I absolutely did not say or mean to imply that people "hang out in my bar because they think it's cool." I'm not even thinking about the I kissed a girl, hey hunky guys look at me and get excited coolness factor.
I said that women seek lesbian space because there is a suspension of the dominant paradigm. And that when hetero partnered folks start coming into the space, it reintroduces that paradigm. It's not about being an exclusive club or more "queer" than someone else. I am just pointing out the way the space is constructed and what that does to the minority folk who are within it.

There is a lot of mention on this forum of husbands and what would one's husband think/say/allow (as in, my husband and I have agreed I can do such and so). In the analogy of the lesbian bar, I was just saying that this space is not a suspension of those paradigms. I think some lesbians must be turned off when reading the threads here. Surely there's a reason why same-sex parenting couples aren't posting on this board in general.Well, kincaid, all I can tell you is this isn't lesbian space. It is queer space, which means people like me ('hetero-partnered'? Is that what I am?) are welcome if we consider ourselves queer. I completely understand why you would seek lesbian space and there have been times in my life when I have done the same. You have the right to feel frustrated or sad or whatever about the fact that this isn't the lesbian only space you wish it was. Or the 'My husband and I make decisions together about the boundaries of our relationship' free zone (which is how I read most of the 'my husband and I have agreed I can do such and so' threads). But, it isn't intended to be.

I certainly want lesbians to feel welcome posting here. I love lesbians fer crying out loud! I have spent most of my adult life as a lesbian, I value the perspective, the proverbial 'my best friends are lesbians'. But, if the main reason lesbians aren't posting here is because they are turned off by how many bisexual people are here, well... So be it.

lunadoula

02-23-2006, 10:28 AM

I think it could be interesting to actually poll "queer women who are partnered to a woman" mamas and those TTC on here and just ask them "Why don't you post more frequently here?"

My response (and the response I hear most often) is "I just don't feel the need." I don't feel that most of my questions/concerns are specifically related to queer parenting. Plus, I have another message board that is just for queer parents/those ttc where most people are same-sex partnered or queer single women.

I don't believe that tons of women don't post because they are put off by other threads on this board. Obviously some are, but my hunch is that's not the main reason.

Kincaid

02-23-2006, 10:48 AM

Tara, I did not say I wanted this to be a lesbian only space. I tried to clarify that several times in this thread. I was saying... I wanted this to be a Gay Parenting space. Emphasis on the parenting. De-emphasis on the sexuality and relationship. I see lots of talk about "I love my husband but I can't get women off my mind." There are SIXTEEN states in the US right now that are trying to abolish adoption by gay people. Not mentioned here in Queer Parenting anywhere. You never hear mention of gay adoption on this forum. No mention of discrimination in the workplace, in schools, in birthing centers, at playgrounds. No mention of legislation in states like Indiana who are wanting women to have a government certificate before they can do IUI or IVF (with a requirement being that they are married to a man). No talk of how gay couples were allowed to be married in some states for like a week, and then repealed the next week. No talk about how the anti-gay constitutional amendment in many states affect families.

Tara, I am sad. People "loving lesbians" in the sense that lots of people are posting about their crushes on wome, or being sexually attracted to women, is not the same as discussing and supporting the reality of being a gay parent.

I don't think lesbians don't post here because they are turned off by how many bisexuals are here! I think lesbians don't post here because the content is such a far cry from what many same-sex familes are dealing with. In USA Today this week, Kent Markus of the National Center for Adoption Law & Policy says he hasn't seen this much anti-gay activity in 15 years as a researcher. There is some MAJOR stuff going on in the world around us, people. Yeah, I guess I do have my panties in a twist that the queer parenting space is mainly threads with women partnered to a guy who are talking about their attraction. Friends, I have nothing against attraction. But I am mom to a little baby and I am scared shitless by what is going on in my country and I need support. Ok, I am bowing out. I appreciate you guys for talking about this with me. No sense in me sitting here boo-hoo'ing at the computer screen. You all are not the problem, and what you're talking about is not "wrong" by any means. I just feel upset that even on a board like Mothering with such liberal and with-it people, the big struggles of gay parents in our world are not being discussed not even in the queer parents forum. MDC leads the pack in so many things... and this stuff is silent on this forum. I have not meant to make anyone feel exculded or judged. I am dealing with the fear and isolation of same-sex parenting in this Bush-led "democracy" and I am having a hard time. I am a very scared momma.

Luna, that said, I don't think same-sex couple parents don't have anything to talk about. I think people need to wake up and pay attention to what's happening to gay people in the world around us.

*To read more about the anti-gay adoption legislation in the works in 16 US states (in addition to the numerous states that already have anti-gay legislation), here's an article. http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2006-02-20-gay-adoption_x.htm?POE=NEWISVA

BrooklynDoula

02-23-2006, 11:05 AM

I think the answer to wanting a space to change is to be that change yourself. You don't see the threads and topics you want to taalk about, then you should start posting those theards and topics and encouraging others to as well. You can also post them in New and Politics or other forums with a potenitally broader readership.

The answer to creating change is not tightening the boundaries and throwing folks (or topics) overboard. There is certianly plenty of room for all of us and all of these topics here.

BrooklynDoula

02-23-2006, 11:12 AM

Seeing threads here about being married to a man but wanting to experiment with a woman on the side... it's just so inappropriate to me. Would that be appropriate at a Rainbow Families meeting? Nope! Would a poly conversation be appropriate at a PFLAG meeting? Heck no! I think we should use some of those same "filters" here. People aren't talking about their sex lives at COLAGE or HRC meetings. Threesome talk is totally inappropriate at a PFLAG meeting, not because those people are close minded or think some people are less queer than others, but because some spaces are meant for certain topics and not others .

We may have to agree to disagree Kincaid, because I am finding offensive things in nearly all of your points and choosing to let it go, but I do want to clarify for you that because somehting feels 'anapproriate to you does not make it wrong and seeking support in the policies of groups like the HRC, well known for their white, middle class exclusionary politics, suggests to me that some rethinking of your right to feel 'comfortable' is in order. No one promised any of us that we agree with everyone esle's sexual desires or practices and no one said that we would always get to feel like those desires and practices were appropriate. I think this is what we would all like to say to the straight folks to throw the same arguements at us. Mimicing western heteronormative stuructures in same-sex relationships works well for many, the HRC included, but it is certianly not the onl,y way to be queer.

thismama

02-23-2006, 11:13 AM

I agree with AnthroMama. Post!

Kincaid, I had no idea that is the reality where you live. I'm Canadian. Most of my two mama family friends are legally married, unless they oppose marriage. Everyone who is not the bio-mom has adopted their babies. Friends of mine were among the first couples in Toronto to adopt their son, but he is like 9 or something now. Adoption here is almost a non-issue, altho they tend to do stupid stuff like put one of the mamas under "father," or they thought my one friend was adopting their son FROM the bio-mama. Wrinkles, but they apologize and fix it in the end.

Kaitnbugsmom

02-23-2006, 11:19 AM

i have seen threads here on the law, in vitro, and other things mentioned...

honestly, I would love to have an open discussion on the 'fun' of trying to be a poly family in the backwoods without losing your kids. We are going to have to apply for EFT and Medicaid when my ex's unemployment runs out, because there are NO jobs here until at least June when the university lets out, and then there will only be a limited amount of jobs, mostly fast food and laundry at the hotels just south of here.... nothing that will provide us with insurance or the income we will be losing..

mamajama

02-23-2006, 11:24 AM

Kincaid, I think Anthro said it best really I can't elaborate further except to offer my own perspective. The issues you have spoken about are huge in the US. I'm not American. I still feel they're relevent to me because I care, but I wouldn't really know enough about american politics to contribute a huge amount. I participate in threads in N&CE about similar topics. I don't post here in this forum too much because as others have said, my parenting issues have less to do with my relationships and more to do with just plain old parenting. I like that this forum is here and would HATE to see it more strictly regulated or dissappeared altogether. In my opoinion it is one of the saving graces of MDC.
I think you need to be the change you want to see. I would be more than interested to hear what you have to say about your own personal experiences and opinions. Mine are probably very different from yours so I would hope a feeling of INclusion would go both ways.

mamajama

02-23-2006, 11:31 AM

T I see lots of talk about "I love my husband but I can't get women off my mind."

You know I also have to say, that for many women this is a HUGE heartwrenching issue. I feel it is really hurtful to dismiss it as irrelevent. You may have that squared away-- your sexuality, your relationship etc. but imagine the angst of a woman who doesn't. Where is she supposed to talk about those feelings? I imagine most women in those circumstances have not felt safe enough to come out irl and to have their experiences slammed here is just wrong. It's hard to be a GLBT activist when you're still trying to navigate your most basic, personal feelings on your own sexuality. A little compassion is in order.

Jwebbal

02-23-2006, 12:34 PM

Mimicing western heteronormative stuructures in same-sex relationships works well for many, the HRC included, but it is certianly not the onl,y way to be queer

You know some of us are not mimicing anything, we are simply doing what comes to our hearts. I am sick and tired of being made to feel inferior because I happen to be happy with being in a monogamous relationship. My relationship is hardly a heteronormative structure, even though we are legal domestic partners. Of course there are other ways to be queer.

tara

02-23-2006, 12:35 PM

I'm no fan of the HRC, in no small part because of their lack of action and inclusion re: trans issues. I much prefer the work of the NGLTF, and that's where I send my checks and support.

Tara, I did not say I wanted this to be a lesbian only space. I tried to clarify that several times in this thread. I was saying... I wanted this to be a Gay Parenting space. Emphasis on the parenting. De-emphasis on the sexuality and relationship. Well, it's not a 'gay parenting' space, either. It's a Queer Parenting space. And the women partnered with men who feel queer and want to be here are not detracting from the space. Also, if there's not to be any emphasis on sexuality and relationships, I don't want to hear about monogamy anymore.

Kincaid, I appreciate knowing that your sentiments here are rooted in understandable fears and frustrations about the discrimination lesbian mamas face in the US. But, I think you make some assumptions about where others stand on these issues. I am well aware of all the social and political issues you mention and I work daily towards being a better activist and ally. You don't know what I do, what I'm involved in, what battles I fight. I don't expect this space to reflect that stuff unless I put the work into making that happen, and as it is I find better support IRL and in other spaces for my activism. I'm ok with that.

People "loving lesbians" in the sense that lots of people are posting about their crushes on wome, or being sexually attracted to women, is not the same as discussing and supporting the reality of being a gay parent. Are you quoting my statement about loving lesbians? Because, knowing my history, you surely don't think that I'm simply talking about crushes