Sad - all my RL friend believe they are broken

[dlm194]

I recently found out that a friend is pg again. We were emailing and I brought up the idea of vbac since she also had a c-s.

Here is what she said:
When you and I were pregnant with our firsts, VBAC's were the new buzz word, but now it is out of favor again, with many doctors saying that the research shows they aren't as good as they sound and there are complications. I would like to try a VBAC but because I had a small uterine tear, 3 doctors have told me that there is no way I should chance a vbac. Honestly, I pushed in labor for 3 hours before I went in for the csection, so I think I know what it feels like. It's more like you say that the recovery part really sucks. So I will go in for a scheduled csection. At least I can notify my family and have everybody there to help out with (ds)

We had out babies in 2004! Where is that idea of "the new buzz word" coming from? I wrote back and quote rupture statistics but she didn't want to budge. It her decision of course :) but I just find it so sad that women really don't know. They just don't know their choices, they don't know the risks and they buy all the bs that all mighty doctors feed them. I even mentioned doctor's fear of liability and how UR can happen without ever having had a c-s. This particular friend had a stop in blood pressure during her c-s so she passed out. According to her dh, the staff had to hold him back while all these extra doctors rushed in to figure out what happened.

*sigh*

I get this attitute from EVERY women IRL that I meet who had a c-s.

I guess this is more of a vent than anything but I hate how women aren't presented with both sides.

[juliema]

Dana - I'm right there with you. In fact, I'm so happy to see someone post this because everyone that's heard about my recent birth says "oh that's so dangerous isn't it?" and then proceeds to flow straight in to their c/s story and why it was so necessary and :blah :blah :blah I just got off the phone with a woman from my church who proceeded to tell me that she had c/s's with both her children because the doctor thought her babies were too big. Didn't give her a chance to labor, nothing. And the sad part is that she truly believes her babies were too big (9.5pds). The even sadder part is that her c/s was a painful experience for her and she told me she's sad she'll never get to birth vaginally. Another woman from my church who brought me a meal also had a c/s (yes we have about a 50% c/s rate here in Dallas so just about everyone and their mother have had one) said that she was not looking forward to another c/s but that her doctor told her that if she'd had one c/s she was required to have another because of how dangerous vbac's are.

It just makes me want to scream. I wish I could educate women, and wish women would take the time to educate themselves and I wish doctors would be up front and honest with women and tell them the actual facts instead of making women feel like they're broken.

[3daughters]

I asked a friend why she was having a planned repeat cesarean and her answer was "my doctor doesn't think I can give birth". How sad is that?

[JanetF]

I find this stuff so tragic. I find it reprehensible that people paid to supposedly "care" for us play fast and loose with the truth, make predictions that can't possibly be justified and get treated like gods for their trouble. I also find it really really sad that women can't seem to hear other women when we talk about this stuff. Not only does research back our experiences, but our experiences should stand alone for what happens in hospitals and how c-secs are usually caused, not bolts from the blue. In the birth group I run I see women come asking for support to VBAC but still making decisions which are really unlikely to end in a happy or safe birth of any kind. This is despite my work being really focussed on evidence, information, support, sharing and acknowledging women's stories. I saw a mama recently go straight to hospy without any support of any kind, despite our whole group having rallied and found all manner of professional and personal support to enable her to labour safely at home without heading straight to the hospital. She had a c-sec she really didn't need. So the experience of many women in the group who've btdt, sometimes twice, meant nothing, she obviously couldn't hear it. We take the word of surgeons that surgery is safe (well duh what else is a surgeon going to say if they want to keep earning a living???) but not the word of millions of women that it's usually not safe and usually really traumatic. I wish I could wave my magic birthing wand and remove all those societal and personal obstacles we face when we birth but it ain't to be. One woman at a time, perhaps ;)

[2Sweeties1Angel]

I hate how ignorant other women are becoming about the birth process these days, but not as much as I hate how OBs are letting them get that way. I chose to have a repeat section with my daughter even though I knew all the risks and benefits of either delivery method. Intuition told me to schedule the c-section even though I was leaning toward a vbac and I really think something bad would have happened if I hadn't. I don't think I'm broken--I'm planning to have a vba2c if I have another baby, possibly an "accidental" home birth.

My appointment before my scheduled sectionk, my OB made me sign this looooooong form stating that I knew the risks of a surgical birth and that a vbac is usually a safer option. The form had all these possible things that could go wrong listed (maternal death, accidently cutting my bladder, etc) and it was scary, as it should be. At the time I thought that was standard procedure but now I realize it isn't:(

[velcromom]

I have been on both sides in a way - I spent the last 14 years believing I was "broken", I even told my sister that I guess I just wasn't meant to birth normally. Here's the crazy thing - I kept up this attitude over all those years as my sister studied midwivery and went on after her c/s to have two VBACs!!! I even attended the birth of my second nephew. It just did not sink in, and I kept believing the drs were right, that they only did what was necessary because of my body not working right.

I am not sure what brought me around but I remember my first anti-c/s thought was about how my horrible recovery the second time took me completely away from my older child for many months... he was 11 at the time, my second will be 4 or maybe 5 if we have a third when we want to... and there is NO WAY I will purposely do anything that could take my four year old's mom away from him for months. I didn't think about that going into my second section because my first recovery had been so easy. I thought they were all like that.

Unfortunately it took me years and going through a c/s not once but twice before I even would allow myself to look at the hows and whys.. and I never thought I had issues with my c/s, either, I calmly accepted that it was my own failing and never doubted my drs.

I wish there was an answer in there somewhere about how to get through to women before they have to suffer with all that... I honestly can't say what would have made me take notice. Probably it would have had to start when I was a child, with positive stories about birth instead of horror stories.

[ozzyemm]

That's why I like my doc. She advocates for VBAC, because she had one ;). She keeps herself informed, and was interested in the Gaskin maneuver for shoulder dystocia.

As for not doing VBACs, it is a CYA policy. I live in a county where "once a c-sec, always a c-sec). However, I gave birth (and will give birth in the future) in a county that still does VBACs. Supposedly, too many docs were getting sued for performing unsatisfactory VBACs, so the county just banned them :(

[dlm194]

I'm so glad I'm not the only one experiencing this frustration. I hate how my friends *assume* I will have another c-s and if I even mention vbac they come back at me with how their doctors say it's dangerous. The really crazy thing is that many of my friends are scientists so you would think they would research things first. If it's a chemical they have to work with, they can research it til the cows come home but something as major as birth... well, let's just go by what the doctor says. Why don't women think to ask about the risks of repeat c-s??? Of course no doctor is going to offer that info up!!!

I chose to have a repeat section with my daughter even though I knew all the risks and benefits of either delivery method. Intuition told me to schedule the c-section even though I was leaning toward a vbac and I really think something bad would have happened if I hadn't. I don't think I'm broken--I'm planning to have a vba2c if I have another baby, possibly an "accidental" home birth.

I TRULY believe in a woman's intuition and if you believe a c-s was what you needed to do, I am totally behind you! If just 1 of my friends said she felt that way, I'd be with her 100%. But it's not their intuition. it's their doctors talking. Kudos to you on your vba2c plans! :)

[saritabeth]

Okay, I will preface this with the fact that I am feeling extremely sensitive about this whole topic. dlm194, did you ever have a surgical birth? It just wasn't clear from your post that you have had a VBAC yourself.

I am frustrated with the climate of childbirth right now. I think it is wrong that there is no real informed consent when it comes to VBAC. I started this pregnancy completely nieve of what the climate of VBAC is where I am...I had no idea I would have to beg, plea, state my case, and be told that what I want to do is basically 'unsafe'. That being said, I now *completely* understand why women are having repeat elective c-sections. They trust their doctors (who are supposed to have the patients very best medical interest at heart) when they are told whatever crap women are being told about VBAC's.
Honestly, I am a birth doula. I have done extensive reading and happen to love all things childbirth related. This prepared me with how to read medical literature and how to advocate for myself. I have been so broken down by this frustrating process. I even thought to myself (for about a milisecond) that it would be emotionally easier to schedule the surgery so that I didn't have to do all this emotional work and advocacy for myself....go all the way through labor again to have things either go wrong, or have the md's hijack my birth from me too soon.
Being repeatedly told that 'you and your baby could die' additionally does a number on your psyche.

I know its a bunch of garbage, but I just think we need to be mindful of what individual women are up against. The vast majority of people around here have repeat c sections. I don't know one woman who has had a VBAC. I am probably 'the' VBAC patient in the practice I am presently at. I know all the right info and Im rattled. We some how need to reclaim childbirth but if we are to do that, we need to know what we are really up against. It isn't the women who are choosing the VBAC's when they think they have the best info from the MD's....its a medical establishment that is trying to say it knows better than our bodies.

[saritabeth]

I just also wanted to add that a lot of people get intimidated when in the midst of labor and with the MD's. If someone tells you that you and your baby 'need' surgery and you are having railing contractions every 30 seconds, you are not likely to argue. We all want safe mamas and babies....I totally think there are WAAAAAY too many surgical births, but I also think we can be super hard on mamas who are trying to do the 'right thing'.....uuuugh this all makes me so upset.

[dlm194]

Okay, I will preface this with the fact that I am feeling extremely sensitive about this whole topic. dlm194, did you ever have a surgical birth? It just wasn't clear from your post that you have had a VBAC yourself.

Yes, I have had a c-section (in my OP, I said that my friend "also had a c-s" so I assumed it was obvious that I am a c-s momma). I had a midwife (well, medwife) and still wound up getting cut. I know my friend's doctors; we delivered at the same hospital.

No, I have not had a vbac (I only have 1 child). I am very well aware of the vbac climate. I hang out in this forum for the encouragement and empowerment. I live in a state where the c-s rate is the highest in the nation, there are no birthing centers and hbacs are illegal. That's why I was quoting stats to my friend. Nothing is going to change with vbacs as long as women dutifully go along with their doctors. The hospital we delivered at does do vbacs but my friend was told that she is not a candidate for one. *I* was told that I am not a candidate for one - by my midwife!!!! If we decide to have another child, I am getting a new midwife.

How do we change the vbac climate? OBs will NOT get the word out. They WANT women to have c-s and will tell them that their bodies are broken. This has to change. I had an annual with another midwife at my practice and asked her about vbacs. She is supportive (even though the other midwife wasn't) but gave me all kinds of "conditions" the practice has for vbacs. I challenged every one of them with stats and medical studies.... only to stump my midwife who finally said, "In the end, you just have to go with it..." I guess she meant that, in the end, if I don't meet the "conditions," I just have to have another c-s.

I am venting b/c I can't effect change in real life, though I sincerely want to. I am trying to get the word out but too many women simply go along with their doctors rather than contemplating another way. I can't tell women how to birth. But most women don't want c-s; they just think that's how it has to be for them. The points you brought up are the essence of my post - a vent (with like-minded women).

[saritabeth]

Well...if it makes you feel any better I refered an aquaintance to my practice because I got an extremely supportive vibe from my midwives (who it turns out are overseen and directed by the OB's who are less than supportive). She really wanted a VBAC but the OB's (because vbac patients have to meet with the ob) scared the bajesus out of her and her husband with lines like "well you can *try* for a VBAC but you probably will end up with a c-section any way....and your uterus could rupture and you and the baby could die bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla".

I still feel badly however I have yet to find the provider within any distance of my home that actually supports VBAC. In the end she probably would have ended up with the surgery because she was more apt to trust the MD's than her own research and intuition...and everyone around here gives you the same stupid bad info.

I didn't mean to sound defensive or critical, I just think pregnant women are vulunerable to a point because it seems that the medical community always pulls the trump card of you and your baby's well being. I know for a fact that if I decide to have this baby in the hospital and they tell me that my baby is in distress and that a csection will save him I will consent. Its easy for me to have my ideals and thoughts now but I know I wont argue while in labor If I think my baby could die.

They all know that and it pisses me off. When strips are read conservatively and they already think you are doing something inherently 'unsafe' then I think more sections will keep happening that are unnecessary.

personally, I think the route to change is through policy. I think insurers need to stop paying for needless surgery. I think there need to be real public policy solutions that stop the bs that is going on in obstetrics. Medical schools need to start teaching students about the wonder of the human body when left alone to do what it needs to do....sometimes the best treatment is NOTHING...and that isn't just in childbirth.


Okay...quietly stepping off my soap box now...

[3daughters]

I have not had a c-section so I hope you don't mind me posting here.

It just amazes me that with all other medical conditions, MDs use surgery as a last resort. A bad knee gets treated with therapy and cortosone shots for pain before a knee replacement. Children get treated with prophylactic antibiotics for repeat ear infections before surgery for tubes. Ovarian cysts are attempted to be shrunk with birth control pills before surgery for removal. Etc etc, and there ARE real risks to putting off the surgeries such as hearing loss and burst cysts causing ovary damage.

BUT, with birth, surgery becomes the first route because of the risks.

WHY?

[lizziejackie]

I think an OB's stance is more like this:

They mess with you, intervene with your labor, tie you to a bed, monitor you endlessly, drug you, watch you, pressure you, check you, time you, induce you before your baby/body is ready, make you push on your back. All b/c they feel "that's the best way" and they can control things better than mother nature. And then when all that fails, they say you can't give birth b/c you are broken. No wonder why most women are broken...it doesn't take Einstein to figure that out. And then if they will actually "let" you VBAC, they do it all again -- but worse -- and somehow expect what failed everyone in the first place will for some reason, by a miracle, work this time.

Of course, docs (typically) won't support VBAC b/c they know they will fail. I think the first thing any woman should do, before they have their FIRST babies, is run like he11 when they hear a doc say anything about how you "might not" be able to give birth. Because actually what they are saying is, they don't have the necessary to skills to optimally help you birth your baby. Don't give them a chance in the first place and this country would be a lot better off.

[aprilushka]

VBAC ruptures are a doctor's worse nightmare liability wise (and a hospital's also) b/c they never win in a lawsuit after that, so that's why they are like this. Some also I think genuinely believe that if you are diagnosed with CPD you are truly incapable of having a baby. There are other factors too, put them altogether and bam..what we've got now.

It will only change with consumer demand, but as we see, there is too little of it. The problem is it's really hard to get women who are not inclined to question authority to question it. I don't have the energy to work on those who are not going to listen, so I try to start with those who will. Usually you can tell when you have an in on someone.

I was changed by ICAN and I know many women are-- there probably will be a limit to how many women want a change (a lot really like c/s actually) but at least more who are inclined to want something different could be helped, it's just a question of figuring out who they are. That's the hard part, there is no "profile" of the woman who ultimately will want to do what it takes to give herself a good chance at a VBAC.