Don't Teach Manners/Etiquette???

[faithnj]

Open my eyes--

I've read a few people post that they don't intend to model or teach their DC's etiquette or manners. May I ask-- what's the thinking/theory behind that???? What's the intention??? I've never read about this type of thing. I think I kind of get what people are saying when they say they don't want to use "Magic Words." (Does that smack of coercion, or something?) Whatever the case, if you are familiar with this line of thinking, please help me to "get it.."

Faith

[Fuamami]

This topic has been done to death, I'll see if I can find one of the longest threads on the subject.

[Fuamami]

Here's one: "When to start with manners"

http://www.mothering.com/discussions/showthread.php?t=379910&highlight=manner

[captain crunchy]

It has been totally done to death....

I will say though for clarification, I don't think anyone ever said they don't intend to model manners. The people in the consensual living camp (me included) simply say they are not going to force, coerce, manipulate, shame, embarrass, prompt, remind, give "the look", or otherwise produce a sentiment that is forced.

We are all for modeling, providing information, and showing gratitude and *manners* in our everyday interactions though.

[writermommy]

I can't speak for anyone else, or really to the theory. We don't "teach" our children manners or tell them to "say please, say thank you, what's the magic word" or any of that type of statement. We DO model manners for our children. DH and I say please and thank you to each other in normal daily interactions as well as to others, the waitress, for example. We do it naturally and not in a way that is exaggerated or intended to explicitly teach the girls to do it. They all have very good manners and routinely use these words. Not because they were told to do so, but just began doing it naturally as a result of seeing their parents use manners. I really think kids learn best naturally by observing adults. If mom and dad are polite, they will be too. If mom and dad are rude and abrasive, the kids will do the same. Anyway, just my opinion.

[coloradoalice]

We also just model our manners, I do not require them in my daughter, even though she is 22 months and very articulate. Because we model them and she hears it when we say it to each other and to her (please, thank you, your welcome, excuse me, etc..........) she uses all these phrases as well in her daily life.

I was forced to say those words when I was young, although they were rarely if ever said to me from my parents. As a result I find my self to this day digging in my heels and purposely not saying those words, especially to my mom, who often occused me of being unthankful and said such things in front of others all the time. She usually told me to say "thanks" before I could even get the words out.

Besides, just saying the words doesn't make it true!!! If it's not heartfelt and self-spoken, what's the point?

[faithnj]

Interesting. Thanks for the threads.

RE: Thank you.
My dd has been saying thank you consistantly since 13 months at least. (She may have been saying a garbled version earlier than that.) I never taught her to say it-- she just picked it up. But if she hadn't picked it up on her own, I imagine I would have felt I had to teach her to say it one day. Glad to see so many children pick it up without any effort, whether their parents teach "manners" or simply model them.

Faith

[Niamh]

But if she hadn't picked it up on her own, I imagine I would have felt I had to teach her to say it one day.

We say please, thank you, and you're welcome to each other and to dd constantly. As a result she naturally says them also-and quite frequently. But only when she really feels it.

As a result of my upbringing, societal pressure, etc., I always catch myself prompting her with the 'thank you'. I always feel ridiculous for doing it. And she's never once said it when prompted. Which I'm more than ok with. I'm trying so hard to quit the prompting.

[Dar]

My kid picked it up, and is now more well-mannered than I am. However, as a teacher I've run across kids who didn't know basic etiquette. Some were on the autistic spectrum and needed more explicit instruction, and some lived in homes where it wasn't modeled, or where other things were going on.

I found that the most effective way to address it was to start by having a low-key conversation about good manners, and how doing certain things helps people to feel appreciated and respected... and how not doing them can make people think you're rude or you don't like them, even if that's not really true. And then I tell the child that if no one lets you know about these things, it's understandable that you won't do it... and then I give him some manners tips, usually things I've noticed that he doesn't do.

Some kids are sort of "Oh, yeah", like they had been told this but it didn't "stick". Other kids act as if it's totally new information. All of them generally improved their manners, with no further discussion except perhaps some smiles and nods when they remembered.

Even with Rain, I've talked explicitly about some finer points of etiquette, like which fork to use, or what to do with your silverware to show that you're done with a meal. Those are harder things to just pick up on, and she felt more comfortable in formal social situations when she understood the rules.

So it's not that I would withhold information about manners and etiquette from a child, it's that I think it's important to deliver that information in a respectful and courteous way...

dar

[mistymama]

I don't post much here so I have not seen the "done to death" threads. lol

I can say that I never force my 3 year old to say thank you or please ... but I do model it in everyday speech. Like when he hands me something I say, "thank you" and when I sneeze I say "excuse me" and cover my mouth.

Without any prompting from me at all, he now routinely says those things because it's all he's seen or known and that's how he thinks you are supposed to respond. I think it's wonderful and it was in no way forced, he just followed what I naturally do.

[LoveBeads]

Just wanted to add that the reasons for doing this are to teach our children the intent of the words and not make it some rote meaningless babble. That's what I tend to think when I hear a mother saying "what do you say?" to their child. If it is demonstrated as a way of truly showing appreciation then kids will learn it that way and not just think of it as a recitation.

[mamasadie]

Dar, I really appreciated your post. The whole idea of sharing vital information with our children without at the same time attaching expectations/directives to act on it is something that I've been learning about from TCS/NCP/CL mamas. :)

[allgirls]

we don't force..we model and it's working great so far.

I have a funny though...we were visiting friends and Sophia asked her for something and she said "sure thing, what's the magic word?" and Sophia said "abracadabra"....we all were :lol :lol :lol :lol for a long time at that one.

[georgia]

Abracadabra! I :love it!!!

:lol

[IncaMama]

a few weeks ago rowan tried to model it for ME. it was pretty funny. my mom handed me something that looked to Rowan like a present. i didn't say thanks. so Rowan turned to me and said "Mommy...thank you, Nanny!"

hehe oops...so i gave him a huge hug and said "thank you for reminding me, honey...it makes Nanny feel good when i thank her for doing something nice for me, doesn't it?" and he said "yeah".

LOL!! ahhh, kids.

[Dar]

a few weeks ago rowan tried to model it for ME. it was pretty funny. my mom handed me something that looked to Rowan like a present. i didn't say thanks. so Rowan turned to me and said "Mommy...thank you, Nanny!"
I consider that prompting, not modeling. When I say modeling, I mean that when someone gives me a present, I say thank you, and my child observed this and then began to do the same when she received presents. When she was a toddler, there was a period when giving presents was a Very Fun Game, so she would give me various things like blocks and spoons and cats and I would say thank you every time...

If she got a present and didn't thank the giver, I might say thank you for her, but the intent would be to ensure that the giver felt appreciated, not to prompt her into saying it herself. Often she would be too enamored with the gift to even notice....

JUst clarifying terminology...

dar

[dace101]

My dc also prompts for me, even though I don't do it. I just explain to dc that Momma had her mouth full/whatever. We show manners by using them every day.

I can't help but roll my eyes and become a little aggrevated toward parents who use the "Now, what do you say?" technique with their child. I think it's too forceful. My dc learns manners by watching US use them, and it becomes a natural way to express respect to other people, not an empty auto-response.

I suppose you could counter-argue that using manners thereby implies an expected response from someone (for example: someone sneezes, you respond with "bless you", they then feel obligated to say "thank you"), which could be considered NOT very good 'manners' and a form of prompting in itself, but that's a whole other issue.

In my experience, the parents who use the "Say thank-you" approach usually DON'T use simple manners themselves in their day-to-day lives, so it is little wonder that their children don't use them either. I feel that their prompts are more for their own social image than anything anyway, and I can see their uncomfortable embarrassment when their children don't understand when given prompts to say "please" or "thankyou".

How can you expect your children to display traits that you don't even exhibit, and then feel embarrassed when they don't "perform" for your friends (or even strangers).

[gaialice]

It's so strange. Dh and I are polite to one another and with the girls (well dh is not always polite, he has a short temper). But DD2 ALWAYS says please and thank you and you're welcome. And DD1 just never does. So I think modelling works, but it's not magic and it's just a bit simplistic to dismiss all parents of young kids with poor manners of having no manners themselves ... I do not say "what do you say?" but I do restate DD1's requests in a more polite tone and expression. Without withholding whatever she was asking for but rather at the same time as I am fetching whatever she was asking for.
In fact the "please" really is an option in everyday life you can totally say "could you pass me the salt" and that would be polite enough without any need to say "please" but of course if you say "Salt!", well, that's different, and I think for some reason these subtleties are obvious to dd2 but not so much to dd1. I also realized that she has a lot of social issues just because of the tone she uses. So, I would be doing her no favor if I were not correcting her, would I?

[TripMom]

I guess its been done to death . . . I'm glad I missed it! Refraining from teaching your child manners is like saying . . . you can exist in a bubble . . .and what you do and how you do it are entirely up to you, regardless of how it affects anyone else? Uggh.:huh

Age-appropriateness seems like a good discussion for this topic - but debating the "merits" of manners alltogether . . . no thank you.:shake

[faithnj]

........ I also realized that she has a lot of social issues just because of the tone she uses. So, I would be doing her no favor if I were not correcting her, would I?

I'm with you Gaia. I get that people are trying to preserve the child's dignity and soverignity. But if you don't pick it up naturally? Well, life isn't so great for children who find themselves ostracized because they don't have good manners. So it's kind of 50/50. One parent says I don't make my kid say things they don't want to say. But the kid encounters public rejection and humiliation for not conforming. Will they feel out of place? Like misfits? And can they understand why??? Can they figure out what they need to change if they decide they want people to like them? Will it ever feel natural to say please and thank you for the purposes of oiling the social wheel? Another kid says please and thank you as expected. But feels put upon by mom for having been forced to say it. Will they feel violated for going against their natural inclinations? Will they ever get over the anger they felt for being forced to do a few things??? Will the resentment ever go away?


I've seen both sides of that story. I sure as heck don't resent my grandparents for making me say please and thank you. In fact, I'm thankful for it. But my B-I-L seems resentful to this day. His thank you's never seem sincere. If he resented saying thank you, you wish he just hadn't said it. (You also wish you hadn't given him anything. Cause now you feel uncomfortable about the whol interaction. ) And he's gone out of his way to raise a child who does not have to say pleae or thank you for anything. In fact, when my nephew flauts convention, and leaves adults flusterd by not saying please or thank you-- my B-I-L seems to get a lot of joy. It's a real "ha ha, you can't make him do what you want, and you can't make me make him..." type of moment. It's kind of interesting.

But here's the downside-- nobody in the family has ever liked this poor child since he was small. And personally, it breaks my heart that nobody finds him likable. I think every child deserves better than that. And in my way of thinking, it's okay if my B-I-L doesn't care that people don't like him-- he's an adult. He wants to annoy people by doing away with politeness? He can make that decision. At least his mom taught him. But since my nephew wasn't taught to be polite, but rather to act based on what he feels, he doesn't have a choice. He can't form comfortable relationships with people. He's socially inept, and now that he's 17, he still can't see for himself how his lack of manners creates problems for him. What's the big deal? he wonders. Please, thank you...they are just words, right? He must feel that the world is a very mean place, because it only takes exchanging a few sentences with him before he's on a person's bad side. And imagine always being yelled at by adults for opening doors and taking things without asking. Asking for things without saying please, and then receiving things from people who feel begrudged. Taking things without saying thank you, and then finding people are on their guard against giving him anything the next time. Feeling like dinner time is always tense because other people are silently disaproving of your behavior. I hope he at least feels "right' within himself for following his own, inner direction. But sheesh. It all looks so.....unnecessarily painful to live bumping heads with everyone.

I dunno. Some people seem so resentful of the fact that adults tried to make them do things they didn't want to do as a child-- and it looks like they have been emotionally scared by it all. But I'm not sure you're always helping children when you leave them to do what comes naturally, either. I just have to thank goodness my DD is a little mimic, and she's already picked up on this stuff before most children even learn to speak, because I woudn't want to have to tackle this subject for real. And I don't know how I'd feel if I had a child who was less grateful. Probably more than a little annoyed.

Faith

[lerlerler]

I think there's a great deal of difference between: "say thank you" and "what's the magic word" when your child is asking for something or offered a treat

and

taking a child aside at a quiet, calm moment and explaining that if people are not thanked or are treated rudely they can get upset.... and that is what may have happened at the park today

the first examples are coercive... the latter, is important IMO

[tracilicious]

I'm a bit in between here. At home we do model manners, but my three year old doesn't always use them. I'm ok with that, but sometimes we encounter situations where strangers seem to expect him to say it. I feel really uncomfortable with them thinking my child is rude or something, so I do prompt.

I don't say, "Say thank you" or "What's the magic word?" I say, "Wasn't it nice for her to give you this balloon? When someone does something nice for us, it is nice to tell them thank you." Or something like that. If he still doesn't say thank you, I just say it for him. At home if he demands something of me instead of asking me, I say, "I would feel nicer if you said please and asked me in a nice voice."

I don't know if those are good things to do or not, but pleasantries are part of getting along in the world, and I do want him to learn to use them, even if they aren't always 100% genuine. I will model all the time, but if I prompt once in a while, I don't really think I'm harming him. Just reminding.

[maya44]

First I don't think there is anything wrong with telling a child what the rules of society are. Some kids really need this, they don't pick up on it naturally.

This does NOT mean you need to punish or humiliate. A simple statement "You need to say please or thank you" is sufficient. I do not do this in front of others but will discuss it later.

And modeling is always a good idea and often works.

I have to say that one thing that drives me crazy is when I say "thank you so much" and the other person just say "uh, huh" (hey, MIL THIS MEANS YOU!:lol ). My DH does this too based on poor teaching.

I was determined that my kids were more gracious. So I have told them that this bothers me and have modeled better behavior.

Just yesterday my 9 y.o. dd was thanked by a friend for bringing her her homework and a little present while she was out of school sick.

And my dd said said "Oh Laurel, its my pleasure. Let me know if you need anything else". I was very proud.

[IncaMama]

I consider that prompting, not modeling. When I say modeling, I mean that when someone gives me a present, I say thank you, and my child observed this and then began to do the same when she received presents. When she was a toddler, there was a period when giving presents was a Very Fun Game, so she would give me various things like blocks and spoons and cats and I would say thank you every time...

If she got a present and didn't thank the giver, I might say thank you for her, but the intent would be to ensure that the giver felt appreciated, not to prompt her into saying it herself. Often she would be too enamored with the gift to even notice....

JUst clarifying terminology...

dar

LOL yeah you're right...it was the wrong word. and what he did to me was not actually anything we've ever done with him. we've been purely modeling, no nudging or prompting or anything like he did to me. i was just sharing a funny story...no larger intent behind it.

[IncaMama]

I guess its been done to death . . . I'm glad I missed it! Refraining from teaching your child manners is like saying . . . you can exist in a bubble . . .and what you do and how you do it are entirely up to you, regardless of how it affects anyone else? Uggh.:huh

Age-appropriateness seems like a good discussion for this topic - but debating the "merits" of manners alltogether . . . no thank you.:shake

hm...i didn't think anybody was trying to argue the merits of manners altogether...and i don't think anybody was suggesting that they don't want their children to have good manners...i'm pretty sure the debate was about how to go about teaching them or helping them pick them up on their own (modeling, prompting, withholding, etc)

[faithnj]

On Age Appropriateness:

Even so....if we switched the discussion to age appropriateness, I think we'd still disagree, based on whenever our own DC's learned manners, and based on our own expectations about the abilities of children. I know that now that my DC has learned to say Thank You at 13 months, I'd expect that to be among the first statements I heard from any child of mine who could speak. I might not expect that from other children, because I don't know how often other kids have heard "Thank You" said in their house, or in what context. But I'd say that until I heard from some of you guys on this board, I surely would have been one of those mother's who told other childern 5 and up to say thank you-- because I would have assumed everybody expected and wanted their 5 year olds to say thank you. (Thanks for setting me straight about that! LOL!) Now, I also realize that many of you don't expect to hear this until a child is 2, 3 4 or 5 or even 7 or 8 or 15!!! I find it interesting that our expectations of what children can do at what ages is soooo different.

So should we expect politeness when a child is first capable? Or when we consider them "old enough" to take responsibility for their actions??? I'm a fan of first capable, myself.

Faith
(Who's 14 month old just said "I love you," for the first time today!!! But still won't say "mama!" LOL!)

[TripMom]

hm...i didn't think anybody was trying to argue the merits of manners altogether...and i don't think anybody was suggesting that they don't want their children to have good manners...i'm pretty sure the debate was about how to go about teaching them or helping them pick them up on their own (modeling, prompting, withholding, etc)

That's good. I may be sensitive, as I've seen a fair amount of discussion in these parts that seems to place the exhaulted "child" above everyone else in society (let alone the family!) . . . and I do disagree with that approach.

[georgia]

From MDC's Statement of Purpose:

Mothering is both a fierce advocate of the needs and rights of the child and a gentle supporter of the parents, and we encourage decision-making that considers the needs of all family members.

So, that's probably why one finds a lot of emphasis on the rights of children around here :)

We explore the reality of human relationships in the family setting, recognizing that raising the heirs of our civilization well is the prerequisite for a healthy society.

In an effort to stay true to the OP's concern, the topic of child/family/society would probably be an excellent discussion--it's just a little OT for this thread :) Anyone want to start a new thread???

[TripMom]

I absolutely agree. Especially the part about "decision-making that considers the needs of all family members"

And if I thought that MDC was a forum to discuss how our children and their unique needs come before those of every other living creature on the planet regardless . . . I would no longer participate here. I am just saying that I have seen, on occasion, postings that take the ideal you mention - and apply it in a way I do not believe was intended.

[writermommy]

I don't think it's a matter of the children being "exhaulted". For me, it's treating them as I would any other human being. Since I would never tell an adult to "say please", I wouldn't really do it to my kids either. When my DH doesn't discipline as I would like, I try to model the GD approach. That's how he's learned, not by me preaching to him or telling him what to say. We are very polite to each other and to others. Therefore, they have learned to be polite. I've had so many compliments from teachers over the years about their manners and have been told things like, "she has the best manners in the whole class." "She's the best behaved kid on the bus." So they have learned their manners, just in what I consider to be a better, more respectful way.

[TripMom]

I don't think it's a matter of the children being "exhaulted". For me, it's treating them as I would any other human being. Since I would never tell an adult to "say please", I wouldn't really do it to my kids either. When my DH doesn't discipline as I would like, I try to model the GD approach. That's how he's learned, not by me preaching to him or telling him what to say. We are very polite to each other and to others. Therefore, they have learned to be polite. I've had so many compliments from teachers over the years about their manners and have been told things like, "she has the best manners in the whole class." "She's the best behaved kid on the bus." So they have learned their manners, just in what I consider to be a better, more respectful way.

I :clap you for "teaching" your kids by example. Its probably the most effective way to teach any life skill -- and obviously working well as others have noticed the positive results with your kids! And I agree . . . it would be odd for you to do the same for other adults . . .after all, you are not their parent? Its not your job to teach them anything? That . . . was someone elses job.

[Dar]

That's good. I may be sensitive, as I've seen a fair amount of discussion in these parts that seems to place the exhaulted "child" above everyone else in society (let alone the family!) . . . and I do disagree with that approach.
I see posts like this every once in a while, but somehow I never see the posts they're referring to, the ones that "place the exhaulted "child" above everyone else in society". Do you have a link for any?

dar

[TripMom]

I see posts like this every once in a while, but somehow I never see the posts they're referring to, the ones that "place the exhaulted "child" above everyone else in society". Do you have a link for any?

dar

I don't have a link for anything? How would I do that - try to go back thread by thread and find posts where I thought the poster was being inconsiderate of others in her interactions with DC?

[Dar]

Well, "inconsiderate of others in her interactions with DC" is a few steps below "place the exhaulted "child" above everyone else in society", in my book... I mean, if I decide to let my tired, cranky 2 yr old push her own stroller out the door because she really wants to and I want to avert a meltdown, and while she's doing it some people waiting to exit the same door are delayed by 30 seconds because it takes her longer... some people might construe that as being inconsiderate of others. Is that the kind of thing you mean? Because "place the exhaulted "child" above everyone else in society" sounds like a parent thinks the child's rights are the only ones that ever matter, while what I think, and what my example demonstrates, is that sometimes other people will be inconvenienced by my child's needs.

I should add that when an older person requires 30 extra seconds to make it out the door, I don't complain.

I guess I think the entire "exalted child" thing is a straw man... no one here thinks her child is above everyone else in society, although it makes a good argument to knock down. Some people do think a child's needs are as important as an adult's, and sometimes a world with children in it (and elderly people, and people with disabilities, and anyone else who isn't always quick and quiet) may not be as efficient as a world without these kinds of people, and it may not run as smoothly... but it's the world we live in, and it's not fair to expect people to act like what they're not.

dar

[Kontessa]

If she got a present and didn't thank the giver, I might say thank you for her, but the intent would be to ensure that the giver felt appreciated, not to prompt her into saying it herself. Often she would be too enamored with the gift to even notice....



dar


The above really helped me!

One thing I think we Mamas need to remember is that not everyone thinks like us and might not even know there is another option to how manners are normally looked at in our society. I really had not even given it much thought till reading this. I know it has been beated to death says some, but I am happy it was posted as not all of us have been here forever and with new people bring new experiences I think.

Blessings,
Kontessa

[faithnj]

I agree with you Kontessa. Dar brought up a very nice way to handle it wen a child does not say thank you. However, I disagree with those who say they wouldn't tell their child to "say thank you" because they don't say that to other adults. The way I see it-- children are not adults, and I'm not being disrespectful to children because I don't treat them the exact same way I treat adults. On the contrary, I think it's disrespectul not to recognize each person for who they are, and meet each person where they are in their life, regardless of age. I have a friend who speaks to her infant as if he were a 7 year old, instructing him to "use his words" and whatnot. I don't think that's respectful. And not because she wouldn't say that to an adult. I don't think she's respecting him for who he is as a 4 month old.

Faith

[TripMom]

Well, "inconsiderate of others in her interactions with DC" is a few steps below "place the exhaulted "child" above everyone else in society", in my book... I mean, if I decide to let my tired, cranky 2 yr old push her own stroller out the door because she really wants to and I want to avert a meltdown, and while she's doing it some people waiting to exit the same door are delayed by 30 seconds because it takes her longer... some people might construe that as being inconsiderate of others. Is that the kind of thing you mean? Because "place the exhaulted "child" above everyone else in society" sounds like a parent thinks the child's rights are the only ones that ever matter, while what I think, and what my example demonstrates, is that sometimes other people will be inconvenienced by my child's needs.

I should add that when an older person requires 30 extra seconds to make it out the door, I don't complain.

I guess I think the entire "exalted child" thing is a straw man... no one here thinks her child is above everyone else in society, although it makes a good argument to knock down. Some people do think a child's needs are as important as an adult's, and sometimes a world with children in it (and elderly people, and people with disabilities, and anyone else who isn't always quick and quiet) may not be as efficient as a world without these kinds of people, and it may not run as smoothly... but it's the world we live in, and it's not fair to expect people to act like what they're not.

dar

You were obviously offended by my use of the term "exaulted child". Apologeis for that. I guess I used the term to illustrate an extreme - that does exist here on MDC - but likely not the majority. By same token, can be a vocal minority. If you feel that extreme does not exist - I definitely disagree with you. The examples that you have given are NOT the type of things I was referring to. And to your point, I guess if I'm not armed with concrete examples . .. . perhaps I should refrain from making my "negative" comment. I suppose its the whole title of this thread "Don't Teach Manners/Etiquettes?" that got me? What the? Who is saying that . . . that's all.

[Dar]

No, I wasn't offended. I just think it's hyperbole, at very least...

I think the point is that there are ways to create an environment where a child will learn something without actually "teaching" it... I feel that the more active a child is in the process of learning and growing, the happier and stronger he is and the more he feels in control of his own life... so I would prefer to do things that enable him to be in that active role as much as possible. If it's not working - if the child is unhappy or I am unhappy living with him because he doesn't understand certain social rules, for example - then I will step in and offer him some of my knowledge on the subject. Otherwise, though, I won't. I think that's an important boundary to keep - my child makes his decisions, and I make mine, and we're only responsible for our own choices.

dar

[IncaMama]

tripmom - just occurred to me now that you're the mother of triplets!!! OMG! wow! :) :) :)

ok now i'm doubting myself...you are, right? :lol

[TripMom]

No, I wasn't offended. I just think it's hyperbole, at very least...

I think the point is that there are ways to create an environment where a child will learn something without actually "teaching" it... I feel that the more active a child is in the process of learning and growing, the happier and stronger he is and the more he feels in control of his own life... so I would prefer to do things that enable him to be in that active role as much as possible. If it's not working - if the child is unhappy or I am unhappy living with him because he doesn't understand certain social rules, for example - then I will step in and offer him some of my knowledge on the subject. Otherwise, though, I won't. I think that's an important boundary to keep - my child makes his decisions, and I make mine, and we're only responsible for our own choices.

dar

Hi Dar -

I'm not debating any of that . . .the "how" the DC learn manners is not my issue .. . my issue is the "should" they learn manners. None of my posts are criticizing "how" anybody choses to teach manners? I just am on record: Manners are important. Its on my list of "parental to-dos"!

[TripMom]

tripmom - just occurred to me now that you're the mother of triplets!!! OMG! wow! :) :) :)

ok now i'm doubting myself...you are, right? :lol

:wave

And FYI - I'm not posting on this thread to criticize "how" people handle manners with their kids . . . .my only point is "manners are important" -- that's all!

[Yooper]

We model manners. Dd forgets sometimes or is too excited to get herself together and in those cases I say the expected thing if necessary. Same thing for dh. Just last night he was in a really cranky/pre-occupied mood when he checked out a few groceries and forgot to say thank you to the cashier as we rolled the cart away. I simply stepped back and thanked the cashier. This was not to teach dh a "lesson", it was to make sure the cashier felt appreciated.

[Dar]

And FYI - I'm not posting on this thread to criticize "how" people handle manners with their kids . . . .my only point is "manners are important" -- that's all!
Ah, okay - I do agree with you there. :) Manners are an important social lubricant, and not helping a child see this would be doing her a disservice.

I think it was this quote that confused me:
Refraining from teaching your child manners is like saying . . . you can exist in a bubble . . .and what you do and how you do it are entirely up to you, regardless of how it affects anyone else? Uggh
I do refrain from "teaching" manners, because I think teaching is the wrong way to go about it... but I do expect that she will learn them (and she has).

My daughter just called from NYC to tell me that her flight was delayed, so that I wouldn't head out to the airport early and have to wait around. It was very thoughtful of her, because I probably would have forgotten to check the flight status before leaving. This is the 13-year-old version of good manners... and I don't think you can explicitly teach something like this. I am actually quite impressed...

dar

[Meli65]

So yesterday we went to a nature class at a local park for 4- and 5-year-olds and as the naturalist was telling the kids a story, she asked them to sit on their own carpet squares so that every one could see. It was a participatory kind of story in which each of the kids was asked to put something into a basket.
Some of those kids just would not keep still, would not sit on their squares and pushed forward ahead of the other kids which made it difficult for the more shy and/or better-behaved children to see and participate. My own spirited ds did "follow the rules" and was rewarded by being forgotten and was the last kid to participate.
The whole thing really sucked, I thought. The children's parents were there and did not intervene. I think children of this age are old enough to sit still for five minutes -- and if not, their parents could take them outside to run around or whatever.
So, my point is that I thought this was an example of very bad manners that unfairly infringed on the rights of others. Am I wrong here?

[Lillianna]

Hello all!
Children are capable of using manners and etiquette and they are totally interested in behaving well and learning all kinds of specific behaviors for different cicumstances. I totally agree that modeling is the key ingredient, that and the expectation of using these words/behaviors at the appropriate time. I am trained in Montessori (Education for Peace), here is what I was taught to do, in 8 + years of working with children, this has been extremely effective: very similar to many of the posts already mention
Grace and Courtesy lessons:
Maria Montessori intended for all the lessons to be given with grace and courtesy: an efficiency of movement, coordination, elegance. The adult that models grace and courtesy is displaying their own integration of mind and body. A child needs opportunities for practicing movement (this is a central Montessori theory). It begins with the most elementary steps first, such as how to sit in a chair, walking and carrying objects, how to say "good morning". Courtesy is extending your own grace to another being. It is an interaction based on harmony. Words that are polite, welcoming and forgiving help the child to adapt and to interact easily in society.
We must never forget that all of our actions are being modeled to the children.
These are the characteristics of G&C lessons:
1 given at a neutral moment - these lessons are not given to make a person feel obvious or inadequate. Ideally, it is anticipatory, given before the need for this knowledge arises. This is determined by daily observations.
2 given within a positive framework
3 address one skill at a time
4 a small group of children take turns using the skill
5 it is not repeated over and over, everyone gets a few turns, then we choose something else to do and practice again later.
6 it should be fun and entertaining! children love to role play
7 once this or any "lesson" is given, we don't expect mastery (compliance if you will) immediately...we hope for more repetition and give time to practice.
8 these lessons are given daily.
we practice all kinds of things: how to knock on the bathroom door. the children love to say "is the bathroom occupied?" and practice over and again how to say excuse me, how to serve a guest, how to introduce someone ETC. (I have a rather long list if anyone is interested.) I know this is a long post already but it's hard to explain without giving a lot of the details so you can get the whole picture.
:rainbow

[gaialice]

Lilianna,
thanks for your very useful post. I would love to have more details or perhaps a book reference this seems a very good method

[Kontessa]

I However, I disagree with those who say they wouldn't tell their child to "say thank you" because they don't say that to other adults.
Faith

Faith I am not saying your wrong but I know how I feel when someone corrects me in public, Even when needed! Example: There are things about hubbys job I am not supposed to talk about in public and yet we stopped to chat a sec with friends at walmart and some dates came up and my hubby was the one who in front of friends reminded me to not talk about such things there. It stung some, and then the other hubby said he was going to wait till they got to the car to remind his own wife. And it stung less. LOL

Am I way off here?

Would it be better to gently remind the child when you go to the car. "Sweety it would have been very nice if you had remembered to say your sorry as I know you love your new...."

Blessings,
Kontessa

[bellona]

I find with my own kids that they sometimes forget in their excitement to say thank you. If they do, rather than correct them right there I do thank the person for them. About 99% of the time this kick starts their memory and they say it as well. If they don't...I bring it up later. I don't tell my kids that they HAVE to, because ultimately I feel it is there choice, but I do explain that people value it. My grandmother is in her 80's and she is very proper. My dh's family is very relaxed and probably wouldn't notice if a thank you was forgotten. We talk about how its always nice, but some people value it alot more than others.

It all comes back to being respectful. We talk about treating others respectfully which I define to my children as treating them how they want to be treated. When we go over to grammy and grampy's house its ok to run around and be wound up and have fun because they like that. When we go to great grammy's house we should be a little more quiet and calm and use our best manners because she likes that.

We talk about how they want to be treated. We talk about how they would feel and what they would do if they were not treated this way.

Its a pretty low key thing, but it gets the point across without being coersive.

For example, tonight at dinner my ds said "Mom, can I have more?" I replied, "Of course. I'll get you more because I love you and I don't want you to be hungry. But it would make me feel much happier and more appreciated if I was asked politely." I had already gotten up to get him more, so it isn't like he had to ask nicely to get it. He said "Oh, sorry, I was thinking about something else and forgot. May I please have some more to eat?".

They think its really funny when we're talking about it and I really play it up and say "would you rather I say 'go clean your room! go brush your teeth! go make your bed! go scrub the toilet!' :) or when I say 'ds, would you please go pick up your room? we're having company'".

So, I guess I do teach it and I do model it...I just don't force it :)

[Lillianna]

Lilianna,
thanks for your very useful post. I would love to have more details or perhaps a book reference this seems a very good method
Here is one: Pg. 215, "Lessons of Grace and Courtesy", EM Standing's Maria Montessori: Her Life and Work.
I will post more as I find it.

[momsincmay]

I can't speak for anyone else, or really to the theory. We don't "teach" our children manners or tell them to "say please, say thank you, what's the magic word" or any of that type of statement. We DO model manners for our children. DH and I say please and thank you to each other in normal daily interactions as well as to others, the waitress, for example. We do it naturally and not in a way that is exaggerated or intended to explicitly teach the girls to do it. They all have very good manners and routinely use these words. Not because they were told to do so, but just began doing it naturally as a result of seeing their parents use manners. I really think kids learn best naturally by observing adults. If mom and dad are polite, they will be too. If mom and dad are rude and abrasive, the kids will do the same. Anyway, just my opinion.

...i couldnt have said it better myself!

[slightly crunchy]

I don't think there is anything wrong with a little reminder, as long as it is not forced.

For example, if someone gives something to ds (almost 4) and he forgets to say thank you, I might whisper in his ear that it would be nice to thank the person. If he doesn't, rif there is no opportunity to do remind him unobrtrusively, then I will say "thank you" for him. With please, he is usually pretty polite on his own in public, and I don't worry about it if he forgets at times. We work on this more at home--talking about it at different times, that people prefer to be talked to in a pleasant way, etc.

But there is so much more to manners than please and thank you--such as: the polite way to address some one, introductions, table manners, waiting in line, eye contact, not interrupting, showing interest in others rather than monopolizing conversations. These are things that are learned gradually and not by very young children, but I do think they must be taught as well as modelled. Some people are going to get it more easily than others, but thereare so many people I see out and about that do not show others common courtesy. I think modelling would perhaps be enough if more adults in society (not just parents!) displayed good manners themselves.

[faithnj]

Faith I am not saying your wrong but I know how I feel when someone corrects me in public, Even when needed! Example: There are things about hubbys job I am not supposed to talk about in public and yet we stopped to chat a sec with friends at walmart and some dates came up and my hubby was the one who in front of friends reminded me to not talk about such things there. It stung some, and then the other hubby said he was going to wait till they got to the car to remind his own wife. And it stung less. LOL

Am I way off here?

Would it be better to gently remind the child when you go to the car. "Sweety it would have been very nice if you had remembered to say your sorry as I know you love your new...."

Blessings,
Kontessa

Kontessa, I just guess it depends on the person. I accept that many people feel embarrased by public corrections. After all, I've lived long enough to see the evidence of it. But me personally? I don't have much of a problem with people correcting me in public. In fact, most of the time- I appreciate them setting me straight, because I don't like to go about with the wrong idea in my head, I hate to spread incorrect information, AND I don't view correction as being the same as criticism.

The only time I feel badly about being corrected is if I've made somebody else feels badly because of what I've said....But what I'm really feeling at that moment is not shame over being corrected. What I'm feeling is guilt over having made a mistake at someone else's expense. And if they are nasty about the situation, then I feel even worse because, well...the whole point of being nasty to a person is to make them feel bad about themselves, right??? But a basic correction or a reminder is not a problem for me. I honestly don't expect perfection in myself or others, and I like it when we help each other out so that we can do our best.

When it comes to kids, I say just be sensitive to whatever works for your individual child(ren).

Faith

[Lillianna]

We believe that practicing these skills is showing the child respect because when the need to use the skills occurs, he will have them at his disposal. We want to offer the child the chance to be free in the application however, so that when the skills are used, it is because of an internal motivation, not external.
Another women wrote to me and said that she had practiced a "Grace and Courtesy" game with her children and that she thought it went well as they enjoyed it and are now using the skill.
I responded with this additional list. I thought I would include it here if anyone else is interested.
I am so glad to hear that it's going well for you! Here is another list, but it is far from exclusive. I like your ideas, let me know what else you come up with!

How to greet another person
How to Introduce
Forgetting someone’s name
How to blow your nose
How to ask someone to tie your shoe
How to cough/sneeze (focus may be what to say “Excuse Me.” or “Bless you.”, covering mouth is part of the exercise)
How to walk around another person/saying excuse me
How to get help/waiting spot
How to find a chair and table that fit
What to say when you want to work alone
How to observe someone else unobtrusively
How to comfort someone who is hurt/get a tissue
How to knock on a door before entering
Meals:
Inviting a friend for cocoa/snack
Serving a guest
How to chew with your mouth closed
How to use a napkin
How to serve or pass food
How to set a table
How to carry/hand a knife
How to carry/hand scissors
Telephone:
Getting the person that the phone is for
Asking for someone/giving your name
Leaving a message / answering machine
Answering the phone
Around the school:
Up and Down the Stairs
Crossing the Street
Swings/Balls
Keep in mind that this is intended for about the ages of 2 through 7.