Help me process this

[blessed]

I've posted at various times about baby's preschool environment and how happy we've been.

When kids over 2yo nap at the school, they go down to the basement dance rooms. This is a big open room with hardwood flooring and the kids - ranging from age 2 to about 4 it seems - all nap together on individual cots with their own blankets. There might be about 40 kids and there are usually three teachers overseeing them, who are unknown to me. I don't know if these are regular teachers in other classes or are just parttimers filling in for the 2 hour nap period.

Today I picked up baby at 2:25 and naptime ends at 2:30. I just go get her from the naproom. Today she was still sleeping so I sat on the floor and rubbed her back waiting for her to wake up. The 3 teachers were sitting on the floor nearby talking. As I looked over, I saw a child's legs sticking out from beneath the outstretched legs of one of the teachers. At first I wasn't sure what I was seeing, and thought maybe the little girl was playing.

I then noticed that there were 3 little boys all laying facedown on the hardwood floor next to the teachers (I've never seen this happen before). One of them raised his head and the teacher with her legs on the child said 'Jacob! You're there for a reason. Put your head back down, now!' The little girl beneath her legs then began sobbing outloud.

I was just sickened. I asked incredulously "are you sitting on top of a child? Because that is very, very disturbing to me!"

She said 'no! My legs aren't weighing on her, I'm holding them off her' (as if this matters). She and the other two teachers then started defensively talking about the child not staying on her cot, how this couldn't be allowed, and how children who wouldn't mind had to sit up front.

I grabbed my baby and left, just feeling ill about the entire experience. I can't even imagine what my reaction would have been if I'd walked in and someone was sitting on top of my child pinning her on her face into a hardwood floor.

My hubby says we should talk to the program director. I looked up the laws in our state and they specifically say that no punishment may be administered which is humilating, shaming, or frightening to a child, and I can't think but that this experience was all of those things for this child.

I'm just tearful as I write this, with what? Rage? Sadness? I can't even pinpoint it.

Am I overreacting? Help me figure this out.

[tracilicious]

OMG!!!! You are not overreacting at all. I am so livid just reading that. I don't know what to do. I'd involve authorities outside the daycare that's for sure. I'm pretty sure I would remove my child, regardless of what the director said. I couldn't trust them again. I would make such a huge and public fuss that they would be terrified to treat a child that way again. I would find out who the parents of the children were and let them know. That is just sickening.

[TeaBag]

You are not overreacting. I would be sick, furious and frightened by that sight. I would definitely speak to the program director. Those poor babies. :(

[irinam]

Oh my. I don't see this as overreacting at all. From what I read in your post it sounds scary.

It's great that your DH is going to talk to the director. I wonder what other areas this practice extends to :irked:

Honestly, I'd be rushing to find another school.

[irinam]

The little girl beneath her legs then began sobbing outloud.

:yikes: :bawl

[blessed]

Thanks. Hubby and I are going together to talk to the program director in the morning.

I've picked baby up in the naproom several times in the month that she's been using it, and I've never seen this before.

Honestly, this awful woman's whole attitude was just wrong. There was no kindess or understanding. It was childish and small. Ugly. Like she was in some juvenile battle of wills with these kids. Someone like that just should not work with children.

[PikkuMyy]

Someone like that just should not work with children.

Good luck tomorrow. You are 100% in the right. What they are doing is wrong in every way.

[writermommy]

I have worked as Director of 2 different preschools. If one of my teachers had done this, she would have been immediately fired. I would accept nothing short of her termination. Prior to being promoted to Director, I was a preschool teacher. I can understand the more reluctant nappers being kept up front. I didn't do this as punishment, but so that I could HELP them get to sleep. I'd sit and rub their backs until they drifted off to sleep. The one or two that didn't sleep would be given books to look at quietly while the others slept. There's PLENTY you can do with a reluctant napper other than child abuse! This is disgusting. I'd fire the b@!$h.

[DoulaClara]

Oh blessed! Oh my gosh. No, it's not right, and you are absolutely not overreacting.

I worked my way through college in a daycare/ preschool, and the things I saw... let's just say that the low pay of childcare workers does not attract the best of the bunch, most of the time. This is sick. I know that when I worked at the daycare (in NY) we were absolutely not allowed technically to even make them nap if they didn't want to, and had to offer an alternate, quiet activity (coloring, soft toys away from nappers, etc.)

Talk to the director, and to be pretty blunt- if that woman is as childish and petty as she sounds, and she will still be around your daughter, I'd make a habit of dropping by unannounced quite often (or, as hard and time consuming as it is, change providers). Good luck to you.

[lisac77]

Wow. You are not overreacting at all! That is horrible.

I'm so glad that you and your DH are going to talk to the program director. Something has to be done. When I interviewed at schools for DS when we were considering putting him in one, I specifically asked about naps and I was told they didn't have to take one if they didn't want to! This was at several different schools, so that just makes that teacher that much more in the wrong!

[sweetpea333]

i cant believe that!!! my god, what gives them the right...(im in a rage right now):scared that is sooooo scary, to think that all of these teachers would agree with this.

[allgirls]

:nak

Wow..I don't even know a single mainstream parent that would think this is ok at a childcare :dropjaw

:hug to you for witnessing it

:( for those poor children

[georgia]

Please, please, go with your instincts. It was someone's dd!!! What if it was your dd? What if your dd was next? This treatment violates ALL of the circumstances the law mentioned. I am honestly sick to my stomach thinking about this. Even when you take EMOTION out of the situation, it is wrong on all levels. And the two other workers are just as wrong to have sat by and watched, then defended! Arg! I wouldn't hesitate to start looking for another situation if you don't get an immediately satisfactory resolution tomorrow---I would be very concerned that with all three of the workers thinking this was appropriate, there might be an even bigger problem :( Hope this isn't the case...Good luck in the morning, blessed!

[SJLove]

Hi there! My views don't necessarily fit into the Gentle Discipline category :) which is why I wanted to pop in and say that this is atrocious behavior for any preschool teacher, and I think any parent would be livid if they found this out. I used to be a preschool teacher, and at naptime we would rub backs until they fell asleep. If they stayed awake for long enough, we eventually just let them get up and join another class. So, you're doing the right thing by making a fuss, and I recommend finding a new school.

[IncaMama]

that's disgusting. go in there and kick some butt. thank god it wasn't your little girl but my goodness...the poor children who were subjected to that...how atrocious. :(

[bellona]

I wouldn't stay there...and I'd give EVERYONE an earful on the way out. But I can be a little hot headed sometimes :hopmad :censored :cuss

I'd also probably sit outside and wait for that child's mother to come pick her up and fill her in :bag:

But, if I did end up staying there, I'd drop in unannounced at different times...with a camera:demon

I might also call the state and see what I could do about making a complaint about those employees, or the whole daycare - depending on how my complaints about the incident were handled.

Good luck today...let us know :)

[blessed]

I called the state daycare licensing bureau this morning just to run the scenario by them anonomously and see what they're take on it was. They were outraged and insistent that I give them the name of the facility so they could do an investigation, which I declined to do. This made them quite angry, in fact.

The director said that the teacher had come to her yesterday explaining what I'd seen and my reaction, knowing that I was upset enough that it was probable that I wouldn't just let it go.

Here's what she said:

She said that they had experienced a difficult nap session in which several kids who are normally no trouble kept acting up. The little girl in question has a long history of difficult and defiant behavior and has been an ongoing source of frustration for them.

The child kept going over to other children's cots and waking them up. They had her come up front and lie on the floor (like the boys I saw). She kept trying to get up, so the teacher held her down to try to "practice how she was going to lay still tomorrow. I don't know why she chose her legs to hold her down instead of her arm."

She said that I had walked in when things were chaotic and the teacher was doing the best she could to manage the children. She said the teacher admitted that she probably should have called for help instead of trying to deal with things herself.

Okay. I said that is NOT a correct depiction of what happened.

There were three teachers sitting on the floor together, calmly having a conversation. I sat with my child for several minutes before confronting the teacher (because I mistakenly thought af first that she was a visiting mom like myself, trying to deal with her own child - I couldn't comprehend that a teacher would be doing that to a child. Parents you can't control unless they are actively hurting the child; teachers have a higher standard to adhere to). During the time I sat there everything was calm and quiet. THe child was not struggling or fighting. The two other teachers were not occupied and were free to provide any assistance that this woman needed.

I said that this experience was obviously very humiliating and shaming to this child. It was clear that this teacher was purposefully and thoughtfully choosing this method of discipline in dealing with this situation.

I explained what the licensing bureau had asked of me and my decision to initially handle this internally. I assured her that if I had seen my child pinned facedown to the floor like that, there would be no anonomous reports. They would be held professionally and legally liable. Furthermore, any parent witnessing that action against their child would feel that way. I said that in retrospect I was only sorry that I had not told the woman to get the hell off of the child and comforted her myself.

At the end she agreed with me that this was NOT an appropriate use of discipline, that she would reinforce this with her staff and with the teacher in particular, and that she was confident that nothing like this would happen again. She asked me to continue to deal directly with her regarding any concerns that I had (I'll bet - instead of the licensing bureau, eh?), and she thanked me for coming forward.

Ugh. I'm exhausted. I hope that was enough. I definitely got their attention, I know that.

[mama_b]

I'm glad you said something, but WHY didn't you give their name to the daycare licensing bureau??? They need to be investigated. There is no way of guaranteeing that this will never happen again. And the parents of the children that this happened to need to be informed so that they can make the decision as to whether or not they will pull their children out. Their behavior is inexcusable. Are the people who did this going to be fired?

[dace101]

So, in the end, it sounds to me that they got their way and nothing will be done to this "teacher" regarding her definate lack of judgement in this matter.

As a parent it is your responsibility to take this further, whether it was your child or not. Not only would I have given names to the licensing bureau, but I would have made it known to the other parents. As a parent, I would definately want to know about this kind of behaviour ESPECIALLY had it been my child who was being treated in this manner (I imagine the daycare will not be quick to reveal what happened to the girl's mother OR to the boys who were also up front - they may never find out).

If this little girl was a "constant source of frustration" for the teachers, I would assume that they have expressed this to the childs parents and would have alternative activities in place (quiet reading, colouring, etc NOT being forcefully made to lay FACE-DOWN on the hard floor). I am outraged just hearing of this treatment, and shocked that you are, in a sense, protecting the daycare by not reporting names to both the outside authorities (licensing bureau for starters) and to the other parents concerned.

I'm certainly NOT trying to attack you, but if my dc went to that daycare/preschool I would most definately want to know so that I could make the choice for myself whether I wanted and trusted my child to be in their care, especially considering that it sounds like these teachers will see no consequences for their bad actions (whether the main instigator was having a "bad day" or not).

[blessed]

I do feel very conflicted, obviously.

My hubby was at the meeting with us. When we got home he commented 'great job! You really scared the crap out of them.' We talked about whether I should push this further and he felt there wouldn't be anything gained by it. He felt that the threat of action against them was very real in their minds, and that if that's what it took to make them re-examine their methods, then this was going to accomplish that.

With the director, I brought up that there should be an alternative to napping in this age group that didn't involve being pinned to the floor (my exact words). She said they have an 'awake room' next door, and that this little girl frequently went there. She said there'd been a number of kids acting up that day and she wasn't sure why the girl hadn't been placed there, but maybe it was because there were already too many kids in that room. She said "I told the teacher yesterday that she should bring the child up here to my office and that I will personally sit with her as long as she needs, before she should use that tactic again."

This daycare has been very good with my baby, who comes with a unique set of circumstances by way of being a post-institutionalized child. Her teachers have been wonderful and have really gone above and beyond the call of duty in helping her to adjust. I really feel that they genuinely care for her. I'm curious to talk to them and see what their take is on this situation, though I know that they'll likely have to be very guarded and not say what they really think.

I'm just not sure that taking official action against the center would facilitate change better than what we've done already.

Very difficult for me :( .

[blessed]

...if my ds went to that daycare/preschool I would most definately want to know so that I could make the choice for myself whether I wanted and trusted my son to be in their care...I appreciate what you're saying here, and it makes sense to me.

Maybe I'll ask (demand) that the director file an incident report and share this with the parents of the girl. I don't know this little girl and wouldn't even know her if she stood in front of me, because I never saw her face (under the teachers legs :irked: ), so I can't talk to her parents directly.

[writermommy]

As a former preschool director, I have several problems with her response. The most glaring being that she suggested the teacher use her ARM to hold the child down, rather than her leg. I mean, WTF!!!!!!! What a stupid thing to say! As if holding her down with her arms is any better. Sounds to me like she's defending the teacher when she should be firing her. I'm sorry, but if your daughter had been at my place and you had come to me with this, I would have been shocked, apologized profusely and fired the teacher.

Also, I wonder what, if anything will happen to this teacher. IME, when they say "I talked to her" nothing happens. If anything, she probably told her to watch herself when you are around. I'm sorry to seem so cynical, but I worked in that industry for many years and I've seen the good and bad sides of day care.

I'm so sorry you have to go through this! It makes me wonder what other "discipline" methods they employ behind the backs of the parents. Do you have access to the owner? Is he/she ever on site? I would try to get to the owner and report the incident. I'm sure she wouldn't like to hear what's going on in her business. Maybe the director needs to go too.

[BlueStateMama]

Blessed, I'm saying this with a gentle and respectful tone, but I really really think you have an absolute obligation to give the name of the center to the licensing bureau. It is their job to investigate and to make sure this type of incident never occurs again...and they will either ensure that the center is compliant by keeping close tabs on them, or shut them down. The licensing bureaus are there for this reason. What if (God forbid) a child was physically hurt?? (beyond the emotional damage that was caused to the poor girl already, can you imagine what that must feel like? To be pinned down by a bigger person while you sob?) You'd never forgive yourself knowing you could have somehow tried to prevent it...

Trust your initial insiticts - you SAW what happened, and either the Director or the teacher lied - and I can't decide which is worse. The Director may be wonderful, but part of being a responsible (and licensed) facility is being accountable for your employees - the fact that that woman isn't out on her a** for physically restraining a child to discipline them should be immediate grounds for termination.

I can only imagine how hard this must be on you. I understand it can be very difficult to find childcare you trust and that is a good fit for your child, and this must be a tough situation to encounter :hug

[mamaduck]

Blessed, I think you handled it beautifully.

[nic]

Blessed,

Clearly you are a loving, caring parent who acted decisively and bravely upon witnessing something abusive. I commend you for that. However, I feel strongly that you should provide the information to the licensing board so a formal investigation can happen. The director and teacher need to be held accountable, and the school personnel (including the director) need training and education to help prevent something like this happening again.

I also don't understand why you said you would have reported them if it was your child. Doesn't your reaction upon imagining your response if it had been your own child, indicate the need to report it on behalf of the other parent's children?

My heart breaks for those children, and I would hope and pray that if it was my child who was mistreated, I was told so as to be able to make a decision about how to best support and comfort my child and to ensure their safety. These parents most likely have no idea their children were mistreated! They have a right to know.

I do not trust that this director is handling this well at all. It was a serious allegation that needs an independent investigation to ensure the safety of all the children in the school.

I'm really sorry you are dealing with this. I do understand how conflicted you are. But, please, please report this.

Warmly,

Nicole

[Mamma Mia]

I seriously felt like throwing up as I read this. I hope you told them about this in your report you recently filed!

Sorry to dredge up an old thread!