the "locker room" and other reason to Circ.

[sha_lyn]

My almost 14 DS is noncirc. and I just wanted to point out that he has never suffered some of the "reason's to circ." that are thrown at parents. I just read many threads here and instead of posting this answer to each one, I thought it would be wiser to post it as a separate topic.


He was in a private preschool for a yr, public school for 7 and has played many sports over the years. Not once has his foreskin been a subject of conversation in the bathroom or locker room

We are pretty open around our home (having one bathroom helps that LOL) and DS never (even when little) commented on his looking different than his dad's

He doe not have an odor

He has never had an infection

At his 13 yr check up the new Ped commented on his good hygine "down there"


BTW.... DS knows I talk about this and it is ok with him. He thinks circ. is horrible and mean (I never told him my feelings about it until after he expressed his feelings) and he is glad that my talking about it might help to keep circ. from happenening.

[hahamommy]

Thanks for posting your son's experience, sha_lyn :love This is very reassuring to moms who may have this concern ~ and your son is exactly at the age in which we wonder if this will be an issue. I've often thought about asking my own 15 year old cousin about his experiences in the locker room, but would hate to embarrass him ~ so I ask my 21 year old cousin instead :LOL He too, never, never suffered consequence to his ego, self-esteem, nor friendships because of his foreskin (his dad AND two older brothers are circ'd).
Just a suggestion about your vocabulary, you should say your son is *intact* instead of *not circ'd* because this term implies he *missed* something ~ just my opinion, of course, but I want to turn the tide, one phrase at a time :thumb

~diana :hippie

[menudo]

When I was in HS I do remember one thing. For a week, the girls kept discussing a certain boy who was uncut. They were quite intrigued and amazed by it. They were eager to see it. Not what we want for our young sons, but it didn't sound like a negative, although he sparked curiosity...lol

[sha_lyn]

hahamommy... I see what your saying about the words, but I guess to me it is more like saying uncut vs cut but less crudely. I do see though how "un" tends to have a negative effect, such as the misinformation that intact=unclean.


I wanted to add too that the only adult circ. I know of was on my grandfather when he has surgery for prostate cancer. The reason given was that it would be easier on the nurses when caring for his catheter. I was about 20 at the time and pregnant with DS. I was horrified that the Dr would suggest Circ. a 71 yr man just to make it easy on a couple of nurses.

[Frankly Speaking]

There is a man in New Jersey that has a case going right now for something similar.

This man is in his late 50's and had gone into the hospital for abdominal surgery. While he was in the operating room, he was also circumcised. The doctor had not discussed this with him and when he woke, he was very upset. The doctor told him it had to be done so he could be catherterized.

Of course, that was bull! Millions of intact men have been catheterized with no problem. You just stick it into the urethra the required distance and tape it to the outside of the penile shaft. There is also an external male catheter that is similar to a condom with a tube and does not require entering the urethra. It is simply slipped on and taped around the base.

The lawsuit hasn't gotten to court yet but it will be interesting to see how it turns out.



Frank

[BreJean]

Well, the other point too is that so many boys these days aren't be circ-ed. So, when boy babies today are in high school 15 years from now, I think it will be a total non-issue.

I have heard that not being circ-ed makes for better sex later on in life ;) LOL!

[gurumama]

Oh my God, Frank, that's so horrible!

I've read that if my son who is intact ever needs any sort of procedure/surgery to write on the chart DO NOT CIRCUMCISE in large letters and get a copy, to prevent this sort of thing from happening. I've even told DH that if I die or am out of town and DS needs surgery, to remember this!

That poor man! I hope he wins and wins BIG.

Mel

[Frankly Speaking]

Yeah, Mel. I first heard about that one about two years ago and still haven't figured out if the doctor was some kind of pervert or monumentally stupid.


Frank

[Christy1980]

I remember hearing about a man who went in for open heart surgery and came out circ'd....b/c of complications, they couldn't do the open heart, so they closed him up. The man was obviously scared to death of going back for more surgery for fear of waking up missing something else. I think in his lawsuit, he only won court costs and lawyer fees...meaning that yes, he had been violated, but that his foreskin was not worth anything!!:angry


Now, if my boyfriend is reading this thread, just stop NOW!!!:nono You know who you are!!!!!!!


As for the high school teasing, when i was in school, (not soooo long ago c/o 98), i dated a somoan (chumaran? from guam) intact guy, (my 1st, uh, "encounter" ever), and i thought it was cool and was curious about uh, "it" and what "it" was like, uh, ya know, "in motion".....:innocent He was a jerk..."put out or get out" kinda guy, but at 15y/o, you think you're in love....:rolleyes:

ANYWAY~~~all my girl friends wanted to know what it was like, and how it was, and all that, and being my 1st experience, i had nothing to compare to.....but i told them it was really cool, and really big, kinda scary, :eek but not like gross scary, like nervous scary....They wanted to know if it was gross or ugly, and i told them no, to which they all went, (intregued) "oooh...." and anyway, he ended up being really popular with the girls once they all started talking...:rolleyes: so he dumped me for some hot cheerleader type girl, and so on...then he moved back to guam....:D

Then i dated a long list of circ'd guys who were also jerks, but also had tiny weenies with ugly scars on them. If i had a tiny weenie, i'd be a jerk too. :eek

Just a suggestion about your vocabulary, you should say your son is *intact* instead of *not circ'd* because this term implies he *missed* something ~ just my opinion, of course, but I want to turn the tide, one phrase at a time

how about instead of saying "circumcised," we say "un-intact" or "non-intact"!!!! That definately implies that the un-intact guy IS missing something!!!

PS--sorry my posts have been so long lately :crap I get that way sometimes....:( sorry

[Sustainer]

Originally posted by Christy1980
If i had a tiny weenie, i'd be a jerk too.

I just want you to know I have tears streaming down my face because I am laughing so hard at this!

ROTFLMAO

Omigosh...okay...I'm okay now.

: )

What I originally wanted to say is that my partner is intact and he has never had any kind of a problem from it in the locker room or any where else. He has told me that if anyone in this forum ever has any questions he'll be happy to answer them.

[Evergreen]

None of the men in my family are circ'd and when I saw this thread I called my 20 yo brother and asked him about the locker room thing. Im sure he loved discussing this info. with me, but he said that there was always atleast 1 other intact guy in there and nobody wanted the label of pervert or gay from looking at other guy's penises so nothing was ever said about it! These days I know of very few little boys who are circ'd (but my friends are all "hippies") so I think it will be 50-50 in our sons' future locker rooms and not weird to see an intack penis at all!

[Christy1980]

what was funny about the "locker room" teasing was that other guy friends who caught a glimpse of the chumaran guy's wang noticed the size and not the foreskin. (he was about 11 inches erect :eek so i don't exactly know what that equates to when flaccid...I never say it flaccid! :innocent) Of course, they thought that was all because he was from guam, like being born on an island in the pacific somehow made his penis larger than a penis grown in the U.S.????:rolleyes:

duh!

sidenote: the clitoris IS kinda like a tiny weenie, and I'm not a jerk! :LOL so i guess i was wrong! :rotflmao

[applejuice]

My Father was not circ'd and when he was in the hospital for prostate cancer, it was not an issue. The nurses were used to it. I guess here in LALA land there are lots of different people.

[elelvee]

>>"...look like the other boys in the locker room."<<


*Why were the other boys circumcised?


The "locker room" statement and the "look like his father" equate to "do it because someone else did."



A change of subject:
People's response to a normal penis (if they are not used to it) is something on the order of "redundant," "excess".
When people react to an exception to other body-deformation fads, the basic idea is exactly the same.
Pearl S Buck's narrator in "The Good Earth," about to marry a peasant woman, feels disgust that she has "big feet". Notice, "big." They're the same size as his.
There was a tribe whose people knocked out their front teeth. They laughed at neighbors who had -- "big teeth". They "looked like zebras."

[Millie Ivy]

:OT
Applejuice, I love your "location"! HP rocks!

[fourlittlebirds]

The reason for circumcising I often hear is "because it looks better." Like the penis is such a thing of beauty to begin with! :rotflmao Well... okay. I guess I can't argue against subjective definitions of beauty, and I do, ahem, think my partner has a rather nice one. :innocent But personally I think a circ'd penis looks uncomfortably, embarrassingly naked, and I have seen some really awful looking ones -- I don't know if they were scarred from the surgery (probably) or what, but IMO a protective covering would have been a visual improvement...

[Xenogenesis]

Totally Off Topic - applejuice - I see you've hit one thousand posts !! Congratulations !! Par-tey !!

:banana

[bxingirl]

I have two son's, both intact. 14 and 2 years old. :love My 14 year old has not had any problems. Actually, the other day he came home and said that his friend is intact too. Yes, I was wondering how in the heck he knew that! He said that his friend told him. My feeling is that almost half of the boys are intact these days. Does anyone know for sure? The reason I came back to this topic is because I am trying to get some facts to tell my son's
science/sex- ed teacher. She said that most boy's are circ'd and there is less chance of getting infection. That pissed me off! I know it did not make my son feel good. She didn't say anything to support the intact males. So if anyone has anything I can intelligently shoot at her, I'd appreciate it!:p Keep up the sense of humor. You all are FUNNY!

[Frankly Speaking]

The average percentage of circumcised newborns west of the Rockies 5 years ago was 38% so when your son was born, it was probably about 50/50. The rate all over the country is dropping rapidly and the west coast states are at the leading edge. Since it has already dropped below 50% there is little momentum left in the circumcision trend there and peer influence among parents will drive the drop in the future. As physicians become more familiar with the intact penis, more and more will actively recommend against circumcision or refuse to perform the procedure altogether. They are getting the support from the parents they need to make it possible.

I don't know if there is a "quick retort" that can get the message across. There are so many myths and so much false information that you just can't "do a quickie." I would print out some information and approach her with it. Let her read and digest it and then make yourself available for questions. I would also give her links to several discussion boards. Almost all of them are populated by very knowledgeable people that can handle any question.




Frank

[Frankly Speaking]

I'll also add from personal experience that educators can be very resistant to education. How strange!



Frank

[Sarah]

You could write to her and tell her that she needs an update on the demographic she is addressing, that many boys are intact, and when she makes comments about circumcision being done to prevent infections, she looks like a moron (can you say that?)- she is spreading a myth to justify circumcision, when infact there is no justification and a large portion of her classroom does not need their circumcision justified for them- because they are intact.

If she would like to do a service to all the boys (and girls) in her class, perhaps she could discuss Meatal Stenosis, Phimosis and Adhesions in a non-judgemental way. Boys only know their own penis, and some have a problem without even knowing it because they have no comparison.


Peeing Problems:

Meatal Stenosis is a narrowing of the pee-hole opening and it ONLY happens to circumcised boys. If they have difficulty peening straight, if it is a thin stream, or if it is really hard to pee- it's possible that he has it. it affects 9-10% of circumcised boys. It is corrected with a outpatient surgery that cuts the opening wider.

Adhesion Problems:

Circumcised and Intact boys can have adhesions, many of these can be relieved with application of some medicated ointment, if that does not work, there are surgical ways to relieve the adhesions. If the adhesion involves the scar line of a circumcision- it might be impossible to relieve without surgery. Some men suffer for many years from adhesions pulling painfully and also being difficult to clean- it is a common enough occurance and there is no shame in goin to a specialist to get assistance in having them seperated. Adhesions are never a reason to be circumcised, and no one should be coreced into a circumcision because of an adhesion.

Sometime intact boys mistake their frenulum for an adhesion- they think that a part of their foreskin is stuck on the underside of their penis. Boys should be instructed that this anatomy has a name, the frenulum or frenum, and that it has a purpose both errogenous and mechanical.

Tightness Problems:

Phimosis means that the tip of the foreskin is tight and the foreskin does not pull behind the glans when erect. Because there are so many stories about people who had to be circumcised because of phimosis, I am sure that there are many people who have phimosis who are afraid to see a doctor about it because they are sure that circumcision is the only thing that will help them- and not wanting to get circumcised- they just try to live with it. There are many treatments for phimosis now that did not exist in the past. About 95% of men with phimosis can have the tightness relieved without having a circumcision- most of them just with some ointment! Boys should be reassured that if they do have a problem with a tight foreskin that they can go to a doctor who understands they do not want to be circumcised, and explore some of the conservative treatments. Circumcision should never be considered lightly as it will change his own sexual feeling, function and the nature of his glans, it will also change the way his partner experiences intercourse. A large portion of people circumcised as adults, even ones who has problem foreskins, are NOT HAPPY about the way that circumcision changed their body.


Some boys are circumcised very tightly, when a baby is circumcised his penis is very tiny and circumcision removes 30- 50% of the skin of the penis. It is impossible for a doctor to know how much skin a boy will need by the time his penis is full sized. Sometimes circumcised men have painfully tight erections. Sometimes the pubic hair is pulled up onto the penis shaft. Sometimes the penis is pulled or bent by the tight skin. If a circumcised boy is experiencing any of these problems, he should understand that this is not just the way that his penis is, but it is the result of losing a large portion of his penis skin (what would amount to 15 sq inches on average) as an infant. These boys should be told that it is possible to file a lawsuit for damages. they should also be made aware of the techniques for foreskin restoration which will help him to stretch his remaining skin so that he can have an erection without pain.

I think that by simply addressing the various problems that some of the boys in the class may be dealing with without anyone's knowledge, she can help them, as well as teach valueable information about the risks of circumcision and the value of genital integrity.

I also recomend the book by David Gollaher for her to read.

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/stores/offering/list/-/0465026532/all/r
ef=dp_bb_a/104-8659881-0282337

Love Sarah

[bxingirl]

Thank you Frank and Sarah for replying so quickly! I had wanted to run over to the school and give the teacher a piece of my mind. I'm still pissed but I am glad that I waited. I will print out some of this information and give it to her. Hopefully she doesn't have a problem with being educated!

Take care!:thumb

[Xenogenesis]

Two nicely summarized articles :

http://mothering.com/10-0-0/html/10-1-0/10-1-protectuncircson103.shtml

http://mothering.com/10-0-0/html/10-1-0/10-1-circumcision85.shtml

[bxingirl]

Thank you. I'm copying it all!:D

[Xenogenesis]

It certainly seems to me you have the right approach, bxingirl.

[Teresa]

Wow, where to begin?

There can be no financial compensation large enough for having a part of your genitals removed without your consent. If someone said to you, I'll give you money to have this part amputated, how much would you want?

The use of the terms Whole, Intact and/or Natural refer to the human body as it is intended to be. 'Uncircumcised' implies that something is missing, when in fact, the reverse is true. Using Whole, Intact & Natural re-frames the whole issue.

Dealing with the science teacher will be a waste of time. It may help you feel better, though, to try to educate her. Chances are her husband/sons are not 'whole, intact, or natural' and she's unable, as so many are, to admit that it was a mistake. Better to talk to a social studies/world civ. teacher and do a study of circumcision rituals (& rationales) around the world. Female circumcision is illegal in the US even though people that promote it (here & abroad) do so on the same grounds that Americans promote male circumcision. Teens can and do 'get it' especially when they are able to see beyond just the cultural practices of the US. (There's no more reason to circumcise a baby boy than there is a baby girl.) If you're in CA, it's very likely that most of the kids--female and male--are whole and natural.

I never understood the locker-room thing. Girls obviously have drastically different breasts--there's probably more natural variation among female breasts than male penises. Teens are very self-conscious, but I don't think most teens sit around comparing their bodies quite so minutely as that, but I could be wrong. DH is intact and had no problems in HS--a non-issue. I'd be more concerned about the kids that aren't intact being self-conscious. It must be awful for them. I also don't get the inter-generational thing. How many families have father & son comparing penises? The adult penis looks entirely different from the child's. Even if you do the brazilian bikini wax thing, adult women's bodies are quite different from little girls. Of course some families are very comfortable with nudity, but I'd be willing to bet, they're more likely to all be intact & natural as well.

Anyhow, future generations will look back on the North American circumcision fetish as another strange social aberration much like foot-binding, neck-elongating, lip-discs and other forms of ritualized scarification, etc. Already, I can say that all of my children's friends are whole & intact, though I suspect a neighbor's child might not be. But then, maybe I'm just sheltered!

[SheBear]

Something occurred to me when I read the title of this thread....

If the only difference that is evident between our children and the majority of their peers is the shape/appearance of their genitals, then we, as parents, are doing something very wrong!

What say ye?

Blessings,

Sarah

[Frankly Speaking]

Sarah:

I have this picture of a 19th Century America as a people who were stalwart, independent and free thinking. people who were willing and able to go against the grain and challenge conventional thinking. These were people who made America great. I see circumcision as a part of this. The doctors, with their limited knowledge and scientific resources were confronted with diseases and maladies that were deadly or deforming and were desperately searching for a cure. By happenstance, a boy recovered from one of these at the same time he was circumcised and with the limited diagnostic abilities they had at the time, it appeared that circumcision was the cure. The people who lived then saw this as new technology and embraced it. It just made sense. Now that it has been proven false, the modern day sheeple of America are not independent and free thinking enough to boot it out with blood letting and skull drilling.

We have become a nation of followers and my neighborhood is clear proof of that. It is an upscale area of successful people but the follow the heard mentality is apparent. Luxury German and Japanese cars are more common than Fords and Chevys. Women with no children drive behemoth SUVs and empty nesters live in 5 and 6 bedroom houses. People walk around in designer label plastered clothes like a billboard to their success whether they have it or not. Everybody tries to dress, look, work and live alike as if they have no mind or desires of their own. If circumcision were a status symbol, all of the children would be circumcised.

This is exactly what has and is happening all over America. Those who are doing it are doing it because they think everybody else is doing it. Just like the woman down the street that drives the SUV as big as a motor home doesn't really like driving something that big and parking it and paying the enormous gas bill does it because all of her neighbors are doing it, there are parents that are causing their children gut wrenching pain, deadly risk and permanent disfigurement simply because the neighbors are doing it and they MUST conform to the neighbors.

Where did the independent spirit that made this country so great go? How did we become such conformists that we will do this to our children?






Frank

[somemama]

Amen, Frank.

[SheBear]

Originally posted by Frankly Speaking
Where did the independent spirit that made this country so great go? How did we become such conformists that we will do this to our children?

My point exactly. Your whole post was beautiful and eloquent (having browsed thru most of this forum, exactly what I'd have expected from you! :))

That notion of comformity impacts more than just our decisions as parents, though. Our children see us caving to such social pressures--things that are shallow and meaningless--and in the face of our example, what words can we speak to them about honesty, integrity, and thoughtful stewardship of this lovely planet? Such lessons sound hollow to children when the parents are struggling daily to keep up with the Joneses.

I hope--I pray--that my children are obviously "different" from their peers. I hope they are more thoughtful, more compassionate, more merciful (to all creatures) and more far-sighted in seeing how their actions affect future generations.

However, I know it is hard to be different. I've dealt with it most of my life (thank you, Mom and Dad!). Thus, I also hope and pray that I am able to impart to my children the courage and conviction necessary to stand true and tall in the face of whatever ostracism, opposition, and oppression they might face.

Blessings,

Sarah

[Christy1980]

how did this turn into a non-conformist discussion? LOL!!

I'm 26 weeks with #1, (not finding out gender, btw), and my friend who is a Jehova's Witness asked me if I was going to circ. I said no, of course not, (he knows how anti-circ i am).

He said, "well what if your son wants to be circ'd like everybody else?"

I said, "Well, what if your kids want to celebrate Christmas like everybody else?"

I went on to explain that just like he and his family had chosen to be J.W.'s, alot of ppl choose not to circ. Both ideals seem so strange to alot of ppl, but there are alot of support systems out there for J.W.'s and intactivists. And as he well knows, his religeon is gaining more acceptance, slowly but surely, and so is the intactivist movement. (Ah, if only *we* could go door-to-door!)

Anyway, he got the point, and he doesn't tease me for being so anti-circ anymore. (but he still plans to circ any kids he has in the future :rolleyes: I'm still working on him :thumb)

[acystay]

On a mainstream board (moms expecting board) I post to, I posted the dangers and how circing was preformed. I mentioned that I wanted to inform moms and dads of what really goes on.

Well, you can only imagine the back lash that happened. I was told all these reasons you have mentioned.

One mom even told me that my son on his wedding night would be embrassed b/c his new wife would freak out at the look of him! Dh got a good laugh at that one and said that he hoped it was long before his wedding night that it came to that...meaning getting some not embrassed. I replied it was my duty as a mother to make my son proud of his body. She felt that circing would save him from this torture and she wanted to prevent it. I so wanted to reply that she's already teaching him that there is soemthing wrong w/ him.

And the locker room issue came up too and I was surprised some other moms mentioned that well, it's actually more embrassing to be caught looking at another boy at that age!

And of course the bible issue came up. This mom was telling me that God gave this as a rule of cleanilness. Good thing I know my Catholic history! She was saying it was Christian rite. HELLO! the OT was Jewish text. It was kinda interesting to have reply back again w/ OT texts.

Again the infection issue came up. I replied that I would teach him just like my dd how to care for his body. I was then told that I couldn't possibly know how well he was washing and that at 8 he wouldn't let me check him over. HELLO isn't our jobs as parents to teach proper hygeine to ALL our children? Of course I realize that I won't be in the shower w/ him at 8 cleaning his penis, but man, the times that dh and I do it before and clean him and brush his teeth teach him so that when he is older he'll know how to keep his body clean!

And then I was told I was using scare tactics on hormonal pg women. That I had no right to inform moms what was going on in a circing. And also I was told that I was un-informed that I needed to check out other sites (AAP, CDC, AMA) for information as well and post those stats too. So I did! And funny how the AAP doesn't recommend routine infant circing now. The AMA info was interesting too. It showed that many of the reasons given to circ. weren't true. But still I was "bad" for doing this!

Sorry this was long, but it does amaze me how many people will flame you just for your choice. I hate it when the post that I don't know what I'm doing or that infection will most likely happen b/c I didn't circ. my son. Why do people do this!?

Anyway, I thought I add some interesting reasons for circing and the roit I caused in cyber space :)

[SheBear]

Originally posted by Christy1980
how did this turn into a non-conformist discussion? LOL!!


I guess my original post was a bit off topic! Sorry! :blush

[Frankly Speaking]

Christy:

Welcome back! We miss you here.

Your story of the J.W. friend surprises me. In my area, they are very strict interpretationists of the Bible and neither of the two J.W. boys I grew up with are circumcised. It surprises me to hear of a J.W. who supports it. You may want to mention the facts spelled out in the Bible. Apparently, it will come as a great suprise to him.




Frank

[Frankly Speaking]

Stacey:

Oday ouay eakspay igpay atinlay? :D (Sorry, I couldn't resist!)


You must realize you have committed the cardinal sin by challenging the status quo. Simply by mentioning that circumcision is not necessary, you have disturbed the peace. You are an infidel! The mere fact that you have not or will not circumcise your child threatens these women. That is especially true if they have already circumcised a child. The mere existence of your child's foreskin and the fact that he is not having terrible health problems tells these women that they have/will do something to their sons that is not necessary or beneficial. You are a threat! They do not want to hear this because they are comfortable with the status quo.

Keep up the good work you rabble rouser!




Frank

[Frankly Speaking]

Originally posted by SheBear
However, I know it is hard to be different. I've dealt with it most of my life (thank you, Mom and Dad!). Thus, I also hope and pray that I am able to impart to my children the courage and conviction necessary to stand true and tall in the face of whatever ostracism, opposition, and oppression they might face.




Sarah:

If you will teach your children to pass everything through the filter of reason and logic, they will follow their own course in the journey of life and eschew the ways of the crowd. In doing this, they will not be the odd-balls or three eyed geeks. Their calm rationality and reasonable acts will garner the admiration of their peers.

There is a common misconception that to be a non-conformist and independent thinker, you have to be obviously different. Nothing could be further from the truth. Those that are falsely trying to be non-conformists and free thinkers exactly conform to that preconcieved notion. The true independent thinkers and non-conformists fit in well with their group, succeed in their life endeavors and are held in high esteem by their peers. They are the leaders in business, government and science or any other endeavor they choose. They lead because they color outside the lines where others dare not go. They are respected for their level headed thinking abilities. Those abilities come from practice and application, not from their forefathers or from libraries. The most important source of this ability is a parent who sparks the desire.





Frank

[SheBear]

Hey Frank!

Very true and well-written, however, I think you may have misunderstood my meaning. Or perhaps I did not make it clear.

The "obvious differences" I am speaking of are not ones that force a young person to be on the fringe (though there's certainly nothing wrong with the fringe! :)) or friendless. Rather, the differences I mean are ones of values--as I mentioned, thoughtfullness, compassion, mercy, global stewardship.

These things alone will not generally cause one to be ostracized; however, speaking up against what is popular (because it is not compassionate or thoughtful, for example) does often result in some form of opposition. That is what requires courage--not possessing the value itself, but the willingness to wield it in a forceful, positive manner.

For example, there was a time in high school where I was asked to "help" a friend pass a test. He had the same class a couple hours after me, and all he wanted was for me to give him a list of the questions that were on the test, so he could make a cheat sheet ahead of time. I refused; he was irritated. My lack of cooperation was not intended to hurt him or cause him to fail the test. I had a conviction that it would be wrong, and I stuck with that conviction. It would have been much easier, and more popular, to have gone along. Many I know would have. I didn't, and I was never asked to again...it got around that I was "different" and that it was pointless to ask me to cheat (I was, however, always willing to study with someone, to increase both of our chances at passing!).

In my work with children and young adults, (I used to work with juvenile delinquents in an intervention facility, and until my son was born I was a substitute teacher at about 10 schools, K-12) I have come to the conclusion that such values as I mentioned do indeed set them apart from their peers. Sometimes they are called Teacher's Pets, or Goody-goodies, or whathaveyou. Usually they are generally liked (as I was) but not "popular". And always, in some way or other, they are swimming upstream.

It is a very visible difference. I applaud them for their strength of character--that's exactly the kind of role models I want my children to look up to!

I hope this serves to clarify my earlier thoughts.

Blessings,

Sarah

Edited to add: I'm not sure I quite agree with the "logic and reason" part of your post....what is right is not always logical or reasonable. KWIM?

[Frankly Speaking]

Sarah:

Carefully consider the difference between popularity and respect. They are not the same and they are not mutually exclusive either.

RE: "however, speaking up against what is popular (because it is not compassionate or thoughtful, for example) does often result in some form of opposition. That is what requires courage--not possessing the value itself, but the willingness to wield it in a forceful, positive manner."

If you speak up in a reasonable and logical manner, it does not have to be done with a forceful and positive manner. It can be wielded as a velvet hammer and that is a positive manner. A well thought out and presented position is always presented in a positive manner because the speaker is confident of their position. This comes with practice and application.

Your example of not helping a cheat built the respect of your peers whether you realized it or not and it did not hurt your popularity as long as you gave a reasonable and logical reason without condescention as to why you were refusing. If you weren't popular, it had little if anything to do with that.

RE: "Sometimes they are called Teacher's Pets, or Goody-goodies, or whathaveyou. Usually they are generally liked (as I was) but not "popular".

Yes, and I also knew those like that. If you will think back though, there were others who did exactly the same general things, only presented themselves in a different way and they were not called these names. These were the kids who were both liked and respected. Liked for the confidence they exuded and respected for what they stood for.

Anybody with average intelligence is a candidate for respect. They just have to know how to earn it. Popularity has more to do with physical attractiveness. However, a very physically attractive person can be very unpopular because their associates do not respect them. Respect and confidence can greatly enhance a person's perceived attractiveness and in turn their popularity. Any amount of physical attractiveness will only enhance respect for a short time.

I believe what is right is always reasonable and logical. Please give me one example of something that is right that is also unreasonable and illogical. I can't think of a single example.



Frank

[Christy1980]

it's so interesting that i got dirty looks from someone today at the same time this discussion is going on. ok, it's a bit more OT, but that's ok...it kinda goes with being flamed....

Some girls that i work with were asking me ?'s about shaving, (i don't shave btw) and this other woman came up and started talking about how madonna was skanky and scummy for not shaving in the early 80's. I asked her if she thought i was either of the 2 because i don't shave. She asked if i flaunted it, and i said, what if i did? mind you i did not show her anything. we were just talking. she looked disgusted with me, then rolled her eyes at me. I asked her what had offended her and she had no answer, she just said that her daddy was a marine and she was the baddest b*tch in the block and she knows how to make a bomb. I said so do i but i don't use my pit hair. LOL She just walked off muttering something about me, but i couldn't hear what. :rolleyes: I've been stewing about this ever since we left work. what a jerk!

So was she threatening me or what? I'm thinking about calling the manager and complaining about it. I asked her what offended her and she starts talking about her fighting abilities and how she can make bombs???

Frank~~my JW friend was born catholic originally, and his family was catholic until he was a year old and the JW's knocked on their door. he said his parents circ'd cuz their dr thought it was best~~as they often do. But he listens to me better than most ppl. I guess if you are going to go door to door and want ppl to listen to you, in turn that must make you an understanding listener as well, LOL! but i don't think he quite gets it yet.

[Sustainer]

I don't shave, either.

Originally posted by Christy1980
she just said that her daddy was a marine and she was the baddest b*tch in the block and she knows how to make a bomb.

WTF?? :confused:

[Christy1980]

Devrock~~~that's what i'm saying!!!

was it a threat or what? I'm complaining to the evil boss about it, but i doubt anything will be done about it. I have *got* to quit this job!

[Xenogenesis]

I don't shave either. I find it interesting many myn find the prepubescent look attractive. Personally I don't find appeal in that thought.

Christy - Is your buddy baptised or is he just now working his way to becoming one of Jehovah's Witnesses? He sounds misinformed to me.

:love

[SheBear]

Originally posted by Frankly Speaking
I believe what is right is always reasonable and logical. Please give me one example of something that is right that is also unreasonable and illogical. I can't think of a single example.
Frank:

Well, one example that springs to mind is the biblical story of Abraham. He and his family had lived in Ur for years, were happy, comfortable, and prosperous, when all of a sudden, God (a God Abram had never heard of before!) spoke to him, essentially telling him to pack up everything and leave. Didn't even give him a map....just said "start walking, I'll show you where to go."

There wasn't a lot of logic or reason in deciding to just pick up and leave what was a good life. Only faith.

Later on, Abraham is commanded to sacrifice his son--his only heir. And he went the distance....again, not logical or reasonable, but listening to God and obeying, even without full understanding? IMO, definitely the right thing to do.

Even more remarkable was Issac....here he was, a strong, young man, in his early 20's, full of strength and with a bright future ahead of him...and here comes Dad with a knife! Now, obviously Issac could have physically overpowered the old man Abraham, and yet, he willingly submitted to his father. There was no logic or reason....only doing what was right, which was obeying his father and trusting in God.

A more modern example: I had a great job just out of college. I worked with abused children (birth to age 12) in a crisis shelter. The pay was adequate, the job was emotionally very fulfilling, the location was good, I liked my co-workers, and had a good chance for advancement. Most of all, it was a job that felt worthwhile, like I was making a difference in the greater scheme of things. However. The schedule interfered with my ability to go to church and worship regularly. I had to quit. Quitting a job I loved, that met my financial needs while also helping society...most would consider that an illlogical and unreasonable decision. But I had to do what was right, which meant honoring my commitment to my church.

Another (IMO obvious) example: Love. Love rarely follows any rules of logic or reason, and yet, choosing to love someone is nearly always right....I'd even go so far as to say that it is always right.

My point is that Logic and Reason are fine, but must always be tempered by our values and priorities. In this sense, there can be no such thing as truly imperial logic.


As for the rest of my post, I have to admit that I'm a bit confused. Having reread my posts and your replies, I still am unable to tell what I've said that you disagree with. I find myself agreeing with most of what you've written; I don't see how your thoughts have conflicted with mine.

Quite frankly, I think that you are arguing merely syntax. I think that we are saying the same things, but that you prefer your choice of words to mine. Fine; I can grant you that, as I have obviously been unable to adequately frame my thoughts in a way that you can understand.

To try to get this slightly back on topic, I will reiterate my original post. When I have been questioned about my decision to not circumcise my son(s), and the "locker-room" argument comes up, my response has been "If the shape of his penis is the only way my son is different from his peers, then I am probably doing something very wrong!"

(Actually, the only time I have used that was while talking to my SIL at a Christmas party where we were watching a half-dozen small children fight over who got the most toys.....it did make her think! :))

Blessings,

Sarah

[Nathan1097]

Originally posted by Last Minute
I don't shave either. I find it interesting many myn find the prepubescent look attractive. Personally I don't find appeal in that thought.

Its not about looking prepubescent. I could explain it here, but I don't think I will. lol Not really the topic for the board.......

[Sustainer]

For some people, I think there IS a subconscious desire for a prepubescent look. For some other people, it's about looking as un-manlike as possible (men have more body hair than women, so we accentuate the difference).

[Frankly Speaking]

Sarah: (Shebear)

What got all of this started is the discussion about can you be non-conforming and be popular and respected among your peers. As it applies to circumcision; can you be non-conforming (intact) and be popular and respected by your peers.

I won't go into the Biblical example because religious discussion is not permitted here. While it could probably be discussed between the two of us, there would be others who would possibly take it over the line so we'll just avoid that.

In the job situation, you made a reasonable and logical decision. You weighed the positives of the job situation and weighed the positives of the spiritual situation and the positives of the spiritual outweighed the positives of the job situation. You also weighed the negatives of those situations and found the negatives of the job situation outweighed the negatives of the spiritual situation. You knew that you would be happier and more fulfilled by changing your situation. You made a reasonable and logical evaluation of the situation and made a change. That change was the right thing to do and as a result, your peers have respect and admiration for you.

In your example of love, you do not choose to love someone, it just happens. It is the result of a mutual attraction and reason and logic has little, if anything, to do with it. That probably explains the 50% divorce rate and high rate of single parent children. That is clearly not right and it is also clearly not reasonable and logical and it will not gain the respect and admiration of your peers. I, myself have fallen in love and by using reason and logic, have seen that they were relationships that had fatal flaws. I used the results of reason and logic to determine that these relationships should be ended. The reasonable and logical decision was right because it avoided making someone I cared about very unhappy, avoided children from a broken marriage and avoided my inevitable unhappiness. This was a reasonable and logical decision. It was morally and ethically right. While my friends and former lovers may not understand this, I think they respect me for it and I think I have their admiration. I have yet to severely impact anyones life in a detrimental way. It was reasonable and logical and right.

My whole point is that by teaching children to evaluate things from a reasonable and logical perspective, they will always make the right decision if their thinking is correct. This will gain them the respect and admiration of their peers and they will be accepted and popular regardless of what their penis looks like. You used reason and logic to come to the right decision about helping your classmate cheat. As a result, you possibly raised the ire of this particular classmate but you gained the respect and admiration of all of the others.

Cutting off part of the sexual organ of a child to make him popular is not a reasonable and logical decision and will not win him the respect and admiration of his peers and will not make him popular. The reasonable and logical decision to leave that part there is the right decision and will not affect his popularity if he has been taught to use reason and logic to make the right decisions. Any possible teasing that may happen once or twice will be handled with aplomb and the child will be able to evaluate the presence of that part with reason and logic and will be able to understand he is far better off with it than he would be without it. He will have admiration and appreciation for the reasonable and logical thinking processes his parents used to come to the right decision.

By applying some reason and logic, I believe I have come to the correct conclusion that my assertion that what is reasonable and logical is always right is correct . . . . . Your counterpoint!





Frank

[muldey]

Oh wow,there are other non shavers out there!!!!!I am the only one I know.(Hey,everyone already thinks I'm crazy,my son is intact,we don't vax,we had a homebirth,etc)My dh has no problem with it,he thinks hair is natural, not gross.


Sorry for being OT,it just surprised me to hear that other women don't shave!

[Sustainer]

Yes, my dp doesn't have a problem with it either, as I tried to tell Ann Landers:

http://devrock.5u.com/custom2.html

--Scroll down to "Natural Beauty"

I'm going to start a new thread for this in Talk Amongst Ourselves.

Edited to add link to thread:

http://mothering.com/discussions/showthread.php?s=&threadid=85589

[SheBear]

Frank:

There's way too much for me to respond to in your post for me to keep quoting, so I'm just putting your words in red. To everyone else, please forgive the length.

What got all of this started is the discussion about can you be non-conforming and be popular and respected among your peers. As it applies to circumcision; can you be non-conforming (intact) and be popular and respected by your peers.

Well, that may explain the trouble right there. See, IMO, this was never a discussion (at least on my part) about whether one can be non-conforming and still be popular and/or respected by one's peers. My point was that it is quite likely that my son will be teased or made to feel different in some regard long before penis shape were to ever become an issue. That by the time my son is old enough to be in a locker room situation (and since we will homeschool, that should be quite awhile away), he will have long since learned how to hold himself with pride and assurance, knowing that such differences are superficial and unimportant when compared to character traits.

Understand that I am not saying that a foreskin is superficial and unimportant. Merely that if someone chooses to think less of my son because of a perceived physical difference, then he would do well to not give that person's shallow opinion a second thought.

I won't go into the Biblical example because religious discussion is not permitted here. While it could probably be discussed between the two of us, there would be others who would possibly take it over the line so we'll just avoid that.

I carefully read the sticky about religion before posting what I did, and I am confident that I did not abuse the rules of posting on this board. I mentioned a familar story from a religious text, but I dealt with it in a historical context only, not in a religious or doctrinal sense. I neither promoted one religion above any other, nor disparaged any religion. However, if a moderator of this discussion thinks that I overstepped the boundaries of this forum, I will be more than willing to apologise, and to edit or delete any offensive material from my post.

Barring that, the examples I used were quite relevant to your question....my purpose was to illustrate that logic and reason will always be slanted by a person's cultural, religious, and personal values and belief structures--by what one sees as "right". Whether you agree with Abraham and Issac or you do not, they made judgements based on their understanding of right and wrong. Just as we all do. All the rules of logic and reason have no bearing, except in relation to our individually-held values and beliefs.

Thus, it is not possible to merely "teach your children to pass everything through the filter of reason and logic" without first giving them a framework of understanding about right and wrong. And the framework of beliefs and values that they are given will undeniably shape their processes of logic and reason.

In the job situation, you made a reasonable and logical decision. You weighed the positives of the job situation and weighed the positives of the spiritual situation and the positives of the spiritual outweighed the positives of the job situation. You also weighed the negatives of those situations and found the negatives of the job situation outweighed the negatives of the spiritual situation. You knew that you would be happier and more fulfilled by changing your situation. You made a reasonable and logical evaluation of the situation and made a change. That change was the right thing to do and as a result, your peers have respect and admiration for you.

Yes, I used logic and reason, but only as they pertained to my perception of what is right. As far as my peers having respect or admiration for me, that is not always true, nor is it relevant. It would be nice to think so, but not necessary for me to continue doing what I know is right. Just as I hope that my children will learn that popularity/respect/admiration from peers should not be factors when deciding what is the right thing to do. Nor can they be justification for taking the easier course. In the end, it is self-respect (which only comes from doing what you know is right) that keeps one's shoulders straight.

In your example of love, you do not choose to love someone, it just happens.

I hope you don't honestly believe that! I disagree strongly. Lust "just happens." Sexual desire "just happens." Love is a choice every single day. Chemistry or mutual attraction can trigger interest in a person, but from that initial interest, one must make the choice to love the person and to manifest love toward that person. It is the very attitude that you mentioned--that love "just happens" and can therefore just as easily unhappen that has led to the high divorce rate. Too many people believe that love should just always be there, and they make no commitment to continue loving a person after the lust and desire fades...so when it does, the relationship fades, too. That sort of relationship has nothing to do with love. Like those failed relationships you mentioned, those kinds of connections are based on lust, desire, selfishness (what can I get from this person), and possibly some affection, but not love. True love--the only kind worthy of the name--always goes the distance.

It is the result of a mutual attraction and reason and logic has little, if anything, to do with it. That probably explains the 50% divorce rate and high rate of single parent children. That is clearly not right and it is also clearly not reasonable and logical and it will not gain the respect and admiration of your peers.

Again, I fail to understand why it is so important to "gain the respect and admiration of your peers." Should this be the standard by which we judge if our decisions are right ones?

I, myself have fallen in love and by using reason and logic, have seen that they were relationships that had fatal flaws. I used the results of reason and logic to determine that these relationships should be ended. The reasonable and logical decision was right because it avoided making someone I cared about very unhappy, avoided children from a broken marriage and avoided my inevitable unhappiness. This was a reasonable and logical decision. It was morally and ethically right. While my friends and former lovers may not understand this, I think they respect me for it and I think I have their admiration. I have yet to severely impact anyones life in a detrimental way. It was reasonable and logical and right.

Again, your reason and logic is slanted by your set of values and beliefs. Certainly I agree that there are relationships that cannot continue, and it is most compassionate to end them as soon and as kindly as possible. At some point during these relationships, you came to the realization that the connection was not important enough to continue the effort of loving the other person. So you stopped. It was a choice, and I don't doubt that it was the best choice. But please don't tell me that "the love just faded away" like so much pixie-dust. That is a fallacy we learn from watching too many Disney movies.

My whole point is that by teaching children to evaluate things from a reasonable and logical perspective, they will always make the right decision if their thinking is correct.

"if their thinking is correct." Exactly what I've been trying to say. Logic and reason only work if your thinking is correct. That is, if you keep logic and reason within the framework of your belief structure.

This will gain them the respect and admiration of their peers and they will be accepted and popular regardless of what their penis looks like. You used reason and logic to come to the right decision about helping your classmate cheat. As a result, you possibly raised the ire of this particular classmate but you gained the respect and admiration of all of the others.

Again, the all-important respect and admiration of others...why not do what is right--and teach your children to do what is right--for it's own sake, without thought of any external reward? Because the truth is, while you may indeed occasionally find that someone admires and respects you, that is not always--and I daresay not even usually--the case. Just ask all the moms who are trying so hard to do what is right by not caving to the pressure to circumsize their sons. Ask them if their peers, their husbands, their inlaws, their doctors, show them admiration and respect for sticking with what they see is right. Ask them if, in the end, the admiration and respect is what they really crave. Or do they just want to protect their little boys, regardless of what others might think?

Personally, I don't care if anyone ever shows respect for my decision. Perhaps someday my son will grow up and say "gee, thanks for not letting them circ me, Mom." But truthfully, I don't even need his thanks. I'd rather that it be so normal and natural and expected in his mind that the alternative--that his parents would have allowed him to be mutilated--would never even occur to him as a possibility.

Cutting off part of the sexual organ of a child to make him popular is not a reasonable and logical decision and will not win him the respect and admiration of his peers and will not make him popular. The reasonable and logical decision to leave that part there is the right decision and will not affect his popularity if he has been taught to use reason and logic to make the right decisions. Any possible teasing that may happen once or twice will be handled with aplomb and the child will be able to evaluate the presence of that part with reason and logic and will be able to understand he is far better off with it than he would be without it. He will have admiration and appreciation for the reasonable and logical thinking processes his parents used to come to the right decision.

I agree with every word in this section, though again I don't feel that the "reward" of respect/popularity/admiration from others is relevant.

By applying some reason and logic, I believe I have come to the correct conclusion that my assertion that what is reasonable and logical is always right is correct . . . . . Your counterpoint!

I have no "counterpoint", because I had thought that we were trying to reach a mutual understanding, not that we were involved in some forensic competition. IMO, argument merely for it's own sake is not a profitable use of my time. I do hope that I have finally been able to clarify my thoughts.

Blessings,

Sarah

[Sustainer]

I agree with Frank that you cannot help who you love or don't love. It's not a switch that you can turn on or off at will. It's something you either feel for a person, or you don't. You cannot MAKE yourself love someone, and THAT is why there is such a high divorce rate.

[Frankly Speaking]

Sarah, I think we are mostly in agreement but I will make some comments.

I believe love does “just happen.” I can’t imagine seeing someone and making a conscious decision that I was going to love them. Love is an unconscious thing and is well under way long before we recognize it. Don’t confuse love and lust. They are different things even though lust can become love and they can happily coexist. You just don’t use reason and logic to decide to fall in love. Also, love and commitment are two totally different things. Love is automatic and subconscious until you recognize it. Commitment is conscious and while it is often automatic, sometimes it takes positive action to honor that commitment. Love and commitment can certainly be mutually exclusive, just not ideally.

My point of “gaining the admiration and respect of your peers” is that it comes as a result of doing the right thing. That respect is not the goal but the result. The goal is to live your life right so that you have positive feelings about yourself and a clear conscious. If you try to have the admiration and respect, you probably won’t. People see through that.

RE: “At some point during these relationships, you came to the realization that the connection was not important enough to continue the effort of loving the other person. So you stopped. It was a choice, and I don't doubt that it was the best choice.”

Not exactly. I came to the realization that those traits and actions were destructive to the relationship and that they would eventually destroy the relationship and the love. I still loved those women and still have some love for them although it is no longer a romantic love. I saw destructive (to the relationship) behaviors and made a conscious decision based on what was logical and rational to end the relationship. There was never a decision to stop loving them. I don’t think you can make a decision to just stop loving someone any more than you can make a conscious decision to start loving them. Considering the circumstances, it was the moral and ethical and right thing to do. To have made any other decision would have probably have meant ending the relationship or a divorce somewhere down the road. It would not be the moral or ethical or right thing to do to just wait for that to happen.

RE: "if their thinking is correct." Exactly what I've been trying to say. Logic and reason only work if your thinking is correct. That is, if you keep logic and reason within the framework of your belief structure.”

Well, yes! You can not make logical and reasonable decisions using flawed thinking and false assumptions. Every part of the argument must be passed through the filter to be sure they are all valid. Once they have been validated, then and only then can a logical and reasonable decision be reached.

RE: “Just ask all the moms who are trying so hard to do what is right by not caving to the pressure to circumsize their sons. Ask them if their peers, their husbands, their inlaws, their doctors, show them admiration and respect for sticking with what they see is right.”

You do not get that admiration and respect with every decision you make. You get it by the decisions you make for your every day life. It is the sum of the whole.

RE: “Personally, I don't care if anyone ever shows respect for my decision.”

And you shouldn’t. By always doing what is logical and reasonable and therefore right, you will have it. It is not something you have to strive for. It comes automatically. That is the wonderful part of it.


By teaching your children to make their decisions based on reason and logic and to follow the results, they will make the right decisions in the vast majority of cases. Those decisions will not always be the easy or popular course but your child will have the payoff of knowing that they were the right decisions and that breeds self confidence. That self confidence enables them to easily ward off the bullies that might tease them about being intact (or circumcised in some parts of the country or Canada or Europe) and come out on top. Those right actions and self confidence will gain the respect and admiration of their peers. The respect and admiration is not the payoff but instead the verification that what they are doing is logical, reasonable and right. The verification is not on a per case basis but cumulative. The bullies will go after those who can not perform this process and are therefore not making the right decisions and do not have the self confidence.




Frank



PS: At the moment, I am having a conflict with some neighbors who are acting very irrational and unreasonable. They are trying to do some things that they think will have a negative impact on me. We have discussed it at length and they refuse to consider it reasonably. They are trying to take retaliatory action against me. There is a great temptation to take retaliatory actions against them. I have the ammunition to cause them considerable financial damage at no cost or benefit to me other than sending a warning to “leave me alone!” How do I handle this? I don’t know yet but I am furiously passing it through “the filter of reason and logic.”

[Frankly Speaking]

Exactly, Alice. Imagine you had a friend that had a georgeous face and body, is well mannered and well off financially, dresses well and has all of the social graces. Do you decide to fall in love with them? Do you make a rational, conscious and logical decision to fall in love with them and do it? On the other hand, do you make a conscious decision to fall out of love with someone and do it? Obviously, the answer to both questions is "no."

You may fool yourself into thinking you are in love but it will not last. You can also fool yourself into thinking you no longer love them but you can not control that. With love, you just have to go along with the flow.

Something I've wondered about . . . Is love selfish? Ie. I want you. I want all of you. I don't want anybody else to have any of you. I refuse to share you. You should be committed to me and only me. It doesn't matter that you don't love me but I want you to love me. I want your time. I want your body. I want you for the rest of your life. Is love selfish? Just musing. :D




Frank

[Sustainer]

I think it's possible to love someone unselfishly and just want them to be happy.

[MelissaEvans]

:OT I agree with Frank that you cannot help who you love or don't love. It's not a switch that you can turn on or off at will. It's something you either feel for a person, or you don't. You cannot MAKE yourself love someone, and THAT is why there is such a high divorce rate.
I'm sorry, I just glanced through this thread, but I think there's more to love than this. Yes, there's a very important initial spark, but one of my favorite quotes is "love is a verb." It's something you *do.* The person who said this (and of course I can't remember his name) was talking to a man who had "fallen out of love" with his wife. The person told the husband to love her. The husband was confused as he just admitted he didn't love her any more. The person explained he meant to treat her well, respect her, make her feel special, listen to her, make time for her... There have been times I look at DH and think, "what the heck am I doing with him?" And then I remember the beginning and the promises I made when I married him, and I love him. Sometimes it starts with just the actions, but then the feeling comes back too.

My $0.02... you're more than welcome to disagree. =)

[Frankly Speaking]

But you still love him. You may be angry or frustrated or estranged from him but that love is still there in the background. Those other emotions have pushed the love into the background temporarily but it is still there and you have consciously made an effort to remember why you love him, not to love him.

We all have ideals that we think our perfect mate must have. I have found women that had most of those ideals. They include appearance, temprament, emotional and personality traits, character, political outlook, lifestyle, intelligence, honesty and many other traits. Regardless of how many of these qualities some of these women have and regardless of how physically attracted we are and regardless of how I think they would make a great mate, I can not force myself to fall in love with them. In the exact opposite direction, despite what my ex-wife did to me and despite how angry I was with her and despite the fact that I will have absolutely nothing to do with her, there is still some love there no matter how hard I try not to have that love for her. I can not turn love on or off no matter how hard I want to. I can fool my self for a little while but the truth wiggles itself out eventually.

I am very good at controling my emotions. I can talk myself out of being angry, sad or depressed. Love is the only one I have absolutely no control over and I don't think anyone truly controls that. You can facilitate it and once it is there, you can keep destructive thoughts out but you can not consciously turn it on if it is not there or turn it off if it is there.




Frank