A question...

[Celestial]

I expect to get flamed for this, but I really hope I am not.

I am NOT the perfect parent. I was not raised with gentle discipline. But I am trying very hard to learn new ways to deal with my kids, and I try very hard to practice the techniques I learn.

However, I find it very difficult to come to this board, and other boards or lists like it, because I feel judged by some of the disparaging comments made about other people's parenting. I do not feel like I can ask questions, or talk about the strategies I have used in the past when dealing with my kids, even if I am looking for new strategies, or am trying to change. I guess most would say that is insecurity on my part, and I should just "get over it" because I'm an adult. Sometimes I feel like *I'm* not allowed to have negative feelings because I'm an adult.

But it's hard, because I feel like I am in limbo. I can't talk to my "mainstream" friends and family, because they just reinforce parenting behaviors I DON'T want to be a part of my repertoire, and the advice in books can often be very general, when sometimes I need specific thoughts on a specific behavior or event.

But some of the posts and comments on this board and others like it make me feel inimidated, or like I'm a bad mom. and sometimes I feel like an idiot, because my situation doesn't seem to have an easy solution, or my kids don't respond to the new methods I'm trying.

So my question to those of you on this board is: am I welcome here, warts and all, or am I just setting myself up for heartache and flames?

[LoveBeads]

Actually, I'm glad you wrote this. I have a lot of the same thoughts/feelings as you. I am not comfortable with any type of extreme so I am very much middle of the road with most things, political views, parenting, etc. That doesn't mean I don't lean one way or that I don't have opinions. But I don't tend to feel as passionately about so many things as I see on the boards.

It's almost funny, I went to the big peace rally in DC and it was absolutely freezing (12 below!!). I was standing on a corner, freezing my butt off, and I made the comment "I could really use a Starbucks". Well, this woman overheard me and began to lecture me, in a very snotty way, about the situation with Starbucks which I was not aware of, but the WAY she was explaining it to me didn't make me as sympathetic as I could have been if she had maybe used a less condescending tone. Instead, it just put me on the defensive.

Sometimes it's not the message, it's the presentation.

I hope that you will feel welcome. I come here because I think that I share a lot of the ideologies of the other women here but I do feel that I am probably not too respected because I don't tend to feel very black and white about things.

LoveBeads
Maddy Moo - almost 3!

[mimmy]

I welcome you!

No one is perfect. (Well, maybe my father (at least he thinks he is), but that is a different story!) I have found that there is always at least one person who will respond judgementally to almost any sort of post - you just have to try to ignore the "know-it-alls". I think, for some, it can be too easy to pass judgement on someone far away via a keyboard. So, post away and rest assured that even the "perfect" mamas probably aren't :wink

[gurumama]

I hear ya. I supplement with ABM (10 oz/day) because of a breast reduction surgery and it really chafes my a** when some folks here make blanket, absolutist statements about ABM being horrible and that mothers who supplement are ____ (fill in the blank--lazy, ignorant, not worthy of friendship, etc.)

In my mind I know to discount it, because the vast majority of folks here are very cool and intelligent and introspective enough to realize that real life requires real flexibility, adaptation, and personal growth.

It's tough, though. Most people here are fiercely committed to AP and have a very hard time when someone is doing something that isn't the best thing for a child. It's hard for me to read about a parent who stays with an abusive partner, or tolerates an in-law as a babysitter when the in-law uses corporal punishment, or who goes along with family pressure to circ. Some folks here would say that everyone should cloth diaper, breastfeed 'til the baby is 4 yo+, be a SAHM, etc. There are some strong opinions here, and that's a good thing overall. However...

I don't share a lot of my issues with parenting my 4 yo, for instance, because I've been worried about the judgment. I struggle to be present with him, to actively play with him rather than passively do housework, feed him, and take active care of my 10 mo. I feel like a failure compared to some of the moms who describe, as if in ecstasy, hours of playtime with their preschoolers and toddlers. I haven't been able to find that (yet) in my relationship with my son, but I fear that if I expressed that here (oops, just did :o ) I might get the whole "if you don't like to play with kids, then why did you have them" cr@p.

Someone here once said they would never become friends with someone who uses disposables on their child. Others say they would use a human milk bank before they'd ever feed formula to their kids. (At $3 and ounce? I wish I could...) Others consider circ'ing tantamount to child abuse (and condemn those of us who had it done to our sons before we knew better...), while others think the woman who breastfeeds her 7 yo is going too far.

Mostly, I would like for this to be a place where we can all *evolve* as parents. I think that's what you're asking for too, Celestial.

Since I found MDC in October 2002, I've increased cloth diapering to more than 50%, added cloth wipes last week, refused a vax when my kid had a cold (and am delaying vaxes and splitting the MMR), increased my milk supply from various techniques learned here, started going to LLL meetings, met some new friends here who understand AP, broken my previous bfing record (10.5 months), learned to use basic homeopathic remedies, discovered my sons BOTH have dairy allergies (and have experienced much improvement from taking them off dairy), and countless other small things. And that's just in 4 months! Think of the evolutions to come!

I think it's fine to be judgmental about an ISSUE, but it's rough to be judgmental against a PERSON, especially one who is trying to learn and grow. So bring on your issues and let's all help each other.

Mel

[PuppyFluffer]

Gurumama, what a kind post!

I agree with so much of what you said. We are parenting our 8 1/2 month old dd with AP principals mostly because they feel right to us. I have read Mothering for over 10 years but just now had my first child. I think my early association with Mothering has helped me to have the ideas I do. I come here to learn grow in my thoughts. I have not faced too much judgement here but know it can happen. I think we need to all have compassion for each other and assume that we are here trying to grow and learn.

[Celestial]

Wow. I could cry reading these responses. I REALLY appreciate what you all have said.

gurumama: I have to agree about evolutions. Some things about AP/ natural living have come easily to me. I have always cloth diapered. I'm vegetarian. I've always been open to alternative medicine and using nutrition to address physical ailments. I decided to take my son out of a bad public school situation, and homeschool. I knew from the time I was pregnant with my first that I would breastfeed. I advocate natural childbirth. I didn't circ either of my boys.

Other things have been more difficult. I had supply issues with my two oldest, and supplemented (which is why you won't find me on the Breastfeeding Advocacy board, even though I AM an advocate). I had CNM attended hospital births with a lot of interventions with my first two, despite my desire to birth as naturally as possible. MDC lead me to homebirth. I wanted to co-sleep but was terrified to because of the things I'd been told. My oldest two are fully vaxed, because I didn't know that they had contraindications, and I could refuse vaxes. I only recently began learning how to actually *use* alternative medicine.

Gentle discipline is one area that I know I could really use help in, that I really WANT help in, but have been AFRAID to ask for help in. It's nice to know at least some of you won't run me out of town.

Sometimes it's not the message, it's the presentation.

Lovebeads: I totally agree with this. If you want someone to change, and they are asking for help, making them feel like crap, whether you are "right" or not is only going to make them defensive. Change can't happen that way.
No one is perfect. (Well, maybe my father (at least he thinks he is), but that is a different story!)
mimmy: LOL!:rotflmao :rotflmao
Seriously, I have very high standards for myself, so when I fall short of where I WANT to be, I'm hard enough on myself, without needing anyone to help me flagellate myself.

[Pigpen]

I'm with you. There have been things that I hesitate to post b/c I KNOW I'll get some negative feedback. That shouldn't stop me but, it does sometimes.
I think it's fine to be judgmental about an ISSUE, but it's rough to be judgmental against a PERSON, especially one who is trying to learn and grow.
Well said. Sometimes that's hard to do. We are all allowed to have our opinions. Some of us are still working on being tactful! I come from an abusive family. Physical and emotional. Discipline is VERY hard for me. I have way too many books about discipline. That's the area I need the most help in. Not that I'm abusive to my kids, it's more like, lack of discipline because I'm afraid I'll do it wrong. I just wanted to say, your not alone. Post what you want!

[gurumama]

It's tough--discipline issues--if you come from an abusive background. Yes, we're adults and parents now, and should "know better" but *I* don't know better all the time! I was never parented in a remotely appropriate way by my schizophrenic, alcoholic, physically/emotionally/sexually abusive mother. So while I know how I *don't* want to treat my kids, I'm left with this big yawning void about how to *be* a loving, gentle guide for them.

I find myself just withdrawing so that *at least* I do no harm. But a depressed, withdrawn mom does do harm. And, of course, I feel volumes of rage at myself for being less than the mother I want to be, so when I face a discipline issue sometimes, that rage comes through, and I yell, or nitpick, or whatever. So far I've never hit, but I have grabbed an arm a little too tightly and then felt like a miserable wretch for days after...

It's not like this all the time, certainly, but it's so *there*, so much the first response. I CONSTANTLY struggle to react to my kids in the present, as they are--and not blend my past with what I'm going through in the moment. My older son is now the exact age (4) I was when I remembered being first molested by my mom, and the same age my sister was when Mom had her big breakdown and I had to walk sis to daycare every day before walking myself and my kindergarten-aged brother to elementary school--and I was only 8 at the time!

So I do a LOT of projecting, which isn't fair, but it's there. All the time.

I think recognizing that it's an issue, talking about it, and learning to replace bad responses with good ones is important. (That's what I do in therapy, anyway...) And the only way to accomplish this is to TALK ABOUT IT.

Thanks, all!

Mel

[Celestial]

gurumama:
Have you tried posting "cliff notes" around your house? I've done that in the past, with tips from "How To Talk So Kids Will Listen and Listen So Kids Will Talk" It helps to at least have the ideas right there in front of me, even if finding the specific words to use in a given situation is difficult.

What I hate the most is when I can't find the words to use, or the words aren't working, and the kids continue to do something I think is inappropriate, or NOT do something that needs to be done.

[nataliekat]

I was recently thinking about this issue because a friend of mine is about to have her second baby and I don't think will breastfeed. She bf'd her first for four weeks.

I LOVE my bf'ing relationship with my sweet baby and have been feeling judgemental toward my friend. I've been trying very hard not to feel this way.

No one can do the ABSOLUTE TOTAL BEST for their children. We're only human. And everyone's line about what they will or will not do is in a different place. I won't cloth diaper, because I'm not willing to deal with the inconvenience. I actually tried, but it was so messy and inconvenient (laundry is in the basement of our apartment building) that I went with easy disposables. Do I feel guilty about it? Sometimes. But I also know lots of kids who were totally disposable diaper-ed and are fine. (BTW, I HATE when people use this excuse for formula :confused: )

I would encourage everyone not to judge another's decisions. Chances are there's something you do that another would find intolerable and unacceptable. I truly believe MOST of us are doing the best we can.

Try to empathize, try to educate. Beyond that, we cannot do.

[gurumama]

celestial,

that's a great idea. mostly i just mutter "he's only four, he's only four, he's only four" under my breath :) .

I also try to remember "be in this moment". A lot of anger comes from wishing you were somewhere else, or trying to control things that aren't controllable, so being in the moment really helps.

[mimmy]

Originally posted by gurumama

I also try to remember "be in this moment". A lot of anger comes from wishing you were somewhere else, or trying to control things that aren't controllable, so being in the moment really helps.

Oh, that is soo true! I've have found that whenever I lose my temper with my children it is because I am somewhere else and not with them. I try so hard to stay with them and not get invloved in whatever else I "think" I should be doing at the time.

[merpk]

Celestial, there are more of "you" here than you think. We had a fine "reformed spankers" thread on Finding Your Tribe some months back, maybe we can resurrect it ...

Anyway, I've had some of the same issues on this board, but am aware that everyone here is just trying to improve themselves and their parenting, that's why they're here ... so maybe some folks just have to improve their judgmentalism (eliminate it, I mean) ...

:hug

- Amy

[Nanner]

Well, I am even a member of my local API group, but I am a bit mainstream compared to some of the folks here.
I did all vax right on schedule,
I am currently nursing my 2.5 yr old but would really love her to cut back to just a couple times a day (she nurses a whole lot still!) and my personal comfort level is that I want her weaned by 3, but will suck it up if she still nurses only 2 times a day or so (she will be, she loves her nursies, I just try to pretend like she might wean by 3!)after that.
I am a single mom
I use gentle discipline but I can be pretty firm, I don't like spending a lot of time trying to justify why I said no- I explain, but if I ask her to do something specific, I want her to do it and then I'll explain.
I yell sometimes but am working hard to stop that.
We eat pretty healthy, but dd knows and loves french fries, hot dogs, and ice cream (ACK- I should be reported!)
She starts the night in her bed and comes to mine when she wakes.
If I had a boy I would circ.
I don't like spanking at all, but I practice tolerance for other parenting styles and don't think spanking in itself means a kid will turn out horrible or that his parents are monsters OR that *I* am a better parent than them! There are a lot of other factors to consider.
I don't spend nearly as much time doing really cool toddler activities as I would like to
I go to school 16 hours a week while her beloved uncle keeps her, and I will have to work this summer, about the same nuber of hours
I cloth diapered from 6 mths on, until the last few mths before PTing.
Ok, I could go on, but I won't!
I just wanted you to know that not everyone here is like you have seen- there do seem to be a few around, but the large majority are pretty open-minded, I think.
We can *all* learn from each other, open-mindedness is a great thing, IMO.
Sara

[RasJane]

Thank you so much for starting this thread Celestial.
I too feel afraid to come here for some of the things I really need the most help with. I don't want to get totally flamed for some of the things I have done, or am doing. I really want to improve though. I think that is what being human is all about. We are that we may become.
I too am a "convert" to AP. I always knew I would cd, mostly for cost and environmental reasons. I never imagined there were so many benefits beyond that. Ds if fully vaxed thru 18mos. And circ'd. And I feel bad about that, but if I live in the past, I can't improve the future.
My biggest discipline struggle is yelling. I lose my patience way to quickly.
I really like the "cliff notes" idea. I will have to try that! My mind loses info in the moment. :rolleyes:
So, hugs to all of you kind and understanding people. May we all find the strength we need to be the parents our children need.:heartbeat :grouphug

[Foobar]

Thanks for starting this thread. I am a mix of AP and mainstream. I work 3 days a week and stay home the other 4. I formula feed, I use Pampers, I use the swing (when I am with her), but I respect her needs as much as possible. I am terrified sometimes to post, but then again I try to express myself.

I believe strongly in western medicine and am against too many natural rememdies. In many ways, I don't fit in here.

However, I like to learn new things and to try to expand my horizons without compromising my principles.

Anyway, I think it is OK to mot fit the model Aper and still post and interact here!

[mamaduck]

Ack. If I've every been judgemental of a person looking for help, I'm so sorry. I definately have no right to be! Just because I have strong opinions and clear cut ideas about how I want to parent does NOT mean that I am 100% successful at it. I have as many "bad mommy" moments as the next person. Maybe more. In fact, just this morning I was reflecting on the time at the end of my 2nd pregnancy when I had absolutely no tolerance for my 3 year old's typical 3-year old behavior, and really feeling regretful and remoresefull over how I treated him.

I think I can honestly say that we all of fall short of the marks we set for ourselves from time to time. The beauty of this forum is that we can learn more strategies for avoiding those times, and we can support each other in our growth.

I also enjoy the disscussions here that focus on the theory and the idealism behind the strategies. I like to disscuss the philosophy of GD. That doesn't mean I always get it right in practise though.



I feel like a failure compared to some of the moms who describe, as if in ecstasy, hours of playtime with their preschoolers and toddlers. I haven't been able to find that (yet) in my relationship with my son, but I fear that if I expressed that here (oops, just did ) I might get the whole "if you don't like to play with kids, then why did you have them" cr@p.

Whew. Yes -- there are those sorts of responses now and then. I hate them, and if I ever say anything remotely close to that, I hope you will challenge me and give me the chance to change my tune. There is no excuse for it. And for the record, I have reported comments like that to mods. and they have been edited.

If you want to start a new thread about not spending hours playing with your toddler -- and feeling guilty about it or whatever, then I promise that I will respond in comisseration and not judgement.

[chellemarie]

I'd pm all of you but that would take forever and I KNOW ds's naptime is almost over. (My boobs say so.)

Please don't be afraid to ask questions and to post. I'm not 100% AP (though I AM attached to my kids - I hate these labels) and would really like to see more posts from other moms like me. Keep in mind that this is a place for exchange of ideas, and it's an excellent resource for so many different things. Don't be afraid to ask or to voice your opinion. We can all benefit from each other's experiences.

If you feel intimidated by someone or something they say, remember, this is an INTERNET community. I don't mind so much if people really far away judge me. LOL (I do, however, feel bad if they're being judgemental of people like me who live near them. I"m pretty neat. They might be missing out AND making someone pretty neat feel pretty crappy. That's not good and it's why I speak up.)

I sort of feel that through this thread, some of us have found our "tribe". :) Doncha think?

Foobar - this is EXACTLY why I pm'ed you. I'm in 100% agreement with what you said in this thread.
:thumb

[Openskyheart]

This thread reminds me of the time when my ds was (just turned) 2 y.o. and my dd was about 3 months old. I hadn't slept more than 2 consecutive hours on any night for three months and was woken repeatedly by each child. I was so exhausted that I fell asleep at the wheel once, and caught my sweater on fire while cooking not once, not twice, but three times in two weeks!

I had faithfully read my Mothering magazines for three years, and was a total in-arms, family bed mom, but at this point I had had it! I was reading Mothering while nursing the baby and Peggy's article that month was about taking care of oneself - including making sure, as a mom, we get enough sleep! I literally threw the magazine across the room and yelled "How the *-(& am I supposed to get enough sleep AND respond to my toddler's and infant's needs all night every bleeping night???!!!

Then I had a good cry.

I've still never bought another copy of Mothering (and this happened more than six years ago!)...but I do enjoy these forums, (even though both of my kids are fully vaccinated :wink )

Thanks for the thread - I'm not a "perfect" AP mom, and it's nice to know I'm not alone here!

Laura :)

[PM]

Hey Celestial - I was having a really difficult time making the adjustment to our new life here in Central Asia. Everything had changed, not just our surroundings, not just the language, but our whole family life! I had some "bad mommy" moments of yelling and impatience, etc. I preferred to share them with a trusted friend rather than come here. Unfortunately, you read threads and watch people here call certain things "child abuse" and, boy, does it make you scared to come share your experiences! I understand your feelings on this issue. Perhaps you can find a PM buddy from this thread? Someone with whom you can share your worst moments in private?

[RasJane]

That's a great idea, ParisMaman! Having someone you can admit some of the less than shinging moments things to without feeling like someone is going to scream "child abuse."
I had a bad day on Friday. Maybe if I had talked to someone earlier in the day it wouldn't have continued as long as it did.
I just keep trying, hoping I am at least good enough.
As for levels of AP, we are a relatively "natural" family, but my gentle discipline needs a lot of work.
Thank you all for the encouragement. I will try to be more couragious about seeking help here as I know there a many who have much wisdom to offer.

[Celestial]

Thanks for the idea Parismaman. I have a friend IRL that I talk to, but her kids are younger, and don't do the kinds of things my kids do, so she is often at a loss.

I'm really glad I posted this thread. At least now I and others know we aren't alone.

[asherah]

I have learned so much here.. but every now and then I get so fed up with the judgementalism..
the rants about mothers who.. (fill in the blank).

So I too hesitate to post about certain issues because I don't need those comments.

For me, the most important thing is balance. I tend not to buy into too many extremes.. like X is always awful and Y is always good/ap.

I guess thats why I selectively vax! LOL

I also am not into labels... so I am not concerned about whether I live up to ap in the minds of folks here. I am concerned about doing what I think is best for my ds. Sometimes that's ap.. sometimes "mainstream." Again.. its about balance and my own intuition.

So you won't get any flames from me!
:wave

[Stylishned]

I am a step dad and My heat is off to moms and dads who know we need to discipline our children yet not a child abuser. Believe me as a step dad I found a lot of booby traps a long the way. I have three kids Two boys and one girl, and I love them with all my heart and soul.

I was in church when I learn the true about my self! Where I was going wrong and why.
1. Never spank or disciplne while you are mad.
When I am in a good mood my kids could do anything and get away with it. If I was in a bad mood whatch out! This is where I found my bigest mistake. It brought me to tears.

2. Spankings are to be done when you are not MAD OR UPSET. I didnot say beatings. Spanking on the butt with my hand, just hard enoght to get the point acrossed. Here agian I failed, If a rule that is broke is a spanking afence when you are mad; then it is a spanking afence when you are not. Back to rule 1, never spank or discipline when mad or angrey.

I literly broke down and weeped, I was so a shame of my self. Two days later was my brithday and my daughter called to wish me a happy brithday. I told her what I found out about my self and I am very sorry, please foregive me? And she fore gave her daddy; now the two of us are crying over the phone and again when I seen her. This happened three times once with my little girl and once with each of my boys and they too foregave their daddy. I am proud to say all three of my kids love me more than any man or father deserves and I love them even more now than I did before!

A thankfull father:love

[mamaduck]

Hi Stylishned! Welcome to MDC. I think this thread is for parents who need a safe place to admit disscuss their doubts and their shortcomings, which you have done and I'm sure we can all relate.

But I really don't think it is the place to advocate for spankings of any kind. This is a gentle discipline forum -- the purpose here is to find creative and alternative solutions to traditional methods of punishment. Most of us feel that spanking is NEVER appropriate under any circumstances. While many of us will admit to slipping up, yelling, and making mistakes with our kids -- you won't find that many of us advocate intentionally spanking or hitting our kids in any way. This is just not a solution, to at least my way of thinking.

Spankings are to be done when you are not MAD OR UPSET. I didnot say beatings. Spanking on the butt with my hand, just hard enoght to get the point acrossed.

If you believe this -- you will find yourself in the minority in this forum. This is not what gentle discipline is about. Hitting a person -- especially a small defenseless person who relies on you for care -- is not appropriate. Its not appropriate when done in anger, and some would argue it is even less appropriate when done intentionally and with premeditation

I hope you will stick around, and read some past threads on the topic. This very issue has been disscussed a number of times, and there are some great explanations and stories available. The threads in this forum are a rich source of information and creative solutions.

And once again, welcome!!!

[Stylishned]

Mamaduck I am sorry I did not mean to afend you or any one on Gentle Discipline, I respect your rights as a parents in deciding not to spack you children but use other mean and less violent.

[mamaduck]

No offense taken Stylishned! I'm not a moderator either, so I'm really speaking for myself here anyway.

I just thought you should know what this forum is about, thats all.


I hope you will stick around so we can learn from each other.

[saturnine25]

Celestial, I can definitely relate to you (and everyone else who has echoed the same sentiment)- I tend to hold back a bit sometimes, too. There are some things which I feel very passionately about, but I get concerned about coming on too strong/sounding judgemental, and about being harshly judged myself. I lean toward shyness IRL as well, though. Overall, I really love these boards- I have learned a lot from MDC and try to contribute/share info which might be valuable to someone. Anyway, I'm right there with you. :)

[Stylishned]

I now understand this is a no spanking zone, right? Okay in my surfing the inter net I have come across a site that is against spanking too. Problem is I do not like their alternative either, why? I will tell you why. They believe the petticoating of unrulily boys is fair better than spanking. If I was the young boy I would say, " give me the spanking please ma'am or sir!"

Petticoating is making a young wear girls cloths from the skin out!

[mamaduck]

Stylishned -- perhaps it would best for you to start a new thread on that topic. I'm sure you'll get some interesting responses.

[Stylishned]

Mamaduck: SORRY! I was not sure if that would be a legal thread. As you can see I have deleted my post, I think it would be better for the sake of friend ships here oo gentle discipline.

Have a great day!

[Piglet68]

Originally posted by gurumama
...the vast majority of folks here are very cool and intelligent and introspective enough to realize that real life requires real flexibility, adaptation, and personal growth.


Exactly. Anybody who makes you feel bad or rotten about something you did or do. when you are genuinely looking for help and support. is NOT WORTH GETTING UPSET OVER.

We mods (and the members) try very hard to make sure that all discussions here are done in a respectful manner, no matter how much we all may disagree with one another. Don't let a few bad apples spoil your opinion of this place.

There's a big difference between advocating something (BFing, CDing, non-circ'ing) and being judgemental and nasty to anyone who doesn't do those things. There's no place for the latter here.