I moved to my new community about 3 weeks after Evan was born. I have been searching for a new church, and just got a flyer in the mail for one that seems to be everything I have been looking for. I emailed the pastor this: "Hi! I received your flyer in the email about *** and would like to know if you are doing your Easter service at a special time or just at regular time. Also, I see that you use contemporary praise and worship; is the atmosphere more casual than a regular worship service? I ask because I have a 5 month old son who would be coming with me, and many people in more "classic" churches tend to disapprove of having an infant in service, but most especially nursing an infant in service. Thank you for any information you can help me with, I really appreciate it! I hope to meet you on Sunday!"

The pastor emailed me back stating that if I come, I am welcome to have Evan in service but that I should nurse in the nursery, so as not to be a source of lust to the men in the congregation.

:jaw :dropjaw :crying :hopmad :hopmad :hopmad :hopmad :bang :splat

Okay I think that's about how I feel. ANyways, I replied back to him with: "I'm sorry that you feel that way about nursing a baby in service. I would remind you of Joel 2:16, which reads "Gather the people; sanctify the congregation; asemble the aged; gather the children, even those nursing at the breast. Let the bridegroom leave the bedroom, and the bride her honeymoon chamber." I also take from your comments the assumption that I would be immodestly exposed, which because of my own comfort, I would not, as I would cover myself with a blanket. I understand that in today's society the breast is viewed as a sexual object when it is not, but the only way to correct this way of thinking is to portray its true purpose: the nourishment of babes."

GRRR! I'm so upset and discouraged!! I was really looking forward to attending this church! What would you all do: not go, or go and nurse in service?

**Edited to adhere to MDC copyright policy**

**UPDATED, PAGE 2**

Good for you for your reply. It sounds great.

I'm not sure I have any advice for you - if it were me, I probably wouldn't have asked in the first place and just gone and nursed when babe wanted to. Hmmm. Now that you've asked, and gotten a "no," you're in a tough place. If the response you get back is still negative, then I would probably just not go at all. Sorry. Good luck!

I think you handled that very, very well. Let us know what he replies. I, on the other hand, may not have been so diplomatic.

Sorry this is happening to you mama, but nursing mamas in church is the only thing that's going to help people's deranged views of nursing mamas in church.

:) :hug

I say go and if you baby is hungry nurse. You won't offend The Lord, the only person that matters anyway.

I am glad you stood up for yourself. I also hope you can find a more supportive less freaked out church where caring for your children are concerned.

Wow - I'd be shocked too.

I agree, I prolly wouldn't have asked. I'd have just done it - it's a lot easier for them to poopoo it on email than in person.

But, I don't know now. For me, I probably wouldn't go. But, I don't like church anyway. :lol

As far as nursing in service I would have to ask that you nurse in the nursery because I don't want you to be the source of lust from any of the men in the congregation. Sorry, that's just being real!"


Ugh...my DH uses this same argument against me....he thinks I should go out to the CAR to nurse....I'm like yeeeaaaah with two nursing babies(that nurse ALL THE TIME :lol ) in the 90+ degree heat? Needless to say, we haven't been to church in years. :lol

That is truly horrible. I'd be shocked, too.

What I want to know is, lets say a man just happens to maybe catch a glimpse of the side or top of a breast, with a little baby firmly latched on--- would ANY man ACTUALLY get all hot & lusty over THAT?? I mean really!!! "Oooh, I saw a square inch of breast skin for all of 0.8 seconds, with a baby slurping it's lunch down...oooooo I'm feeling all tingly!" :rolleyes

Go and nurse. Easter services tend to be fuller than normal ones, right? You won't stand out as new cause there'll be lots of people who don't regularly attend services.

Although.... If that church is filled with men who get lustful over breastfeeding, maybe you don't want to go there.

:mischief "Dear Pastor, I am saddened to hear that so many of your congregation are so corrupted by our modern world that even in a time of prayer they cannot turn their minds from sinful thoughts, even to the breaking of the ten commandments. I will pray for them and for you as you try to lead them closer to G-d."

If it had been me, I think I would have said "If the men at your church become aroused by the sight of a child eating, then they are perverts and should probably get some counselling." I say go, and nurse anyway! I hope you can avoid the bad vibes and just enjoy your service.

:Hug

Hmmm. The spiteful side of me :innocent would want to gather a bunch of women together and have them all come "casually" dressed -- fairly revealingly (many casual styles that are popular today are pretty revealing) while I was dressed modestly and nursed my babe. Just to make a point.

But what I would actually do is just show up and nurse as normal. If you meet and he realizes that you are the Tiffany from the email and he saw you nursing and he confronts you about it, I would just tell him you appreciate his concerns but you were prepared to be discrete and modest and you just knew there wouldn't be the kind of problem he was worried about. I would also prepare myself with references to any applicable laws about bfing moms in public places.

And I agree with sapphire chan and lazykate!

I would just go and nurse if you need to. Really, you're just talking about the comfort of the pastor because everybody else will be looking at him preaching, he is the only one that will be looking back at you (assuming he's the only one on stage). I can kind of understand where he might be coming from (that sounds bad but I'll explain). Most people don't know what a nursing mom looks like because they've never seen one or known what they're seeing if they do see one. He may very well think that you'll have your breasts hanging out and I wouldn't think that would be okay during a church service. Go. Nurse. Enjoy Easter. If questions arise, quote that verse and tell them you find your spiritual health to be so important that you decided to nurse there so you didn't miss anything.

I think your reply is amazing. Very well composed! If you are further questioned, you might also want to inform him of your legal rights as a nursing mother.

I nurse in church - and my son is a toddler. If anyone has an issue with it, I just smile at them and kiss my babe's head.

Good for you for standing up for yourself!

I would go right ahead & nurse and if anyone - especially the ignorant pastor - confronts you, simply tell him, "Jesus was breastfed!"

:mischief

Fantastic response to his ignorance! :clap
Find a different church...and this time, don't ask about nursing, just do it.

:clap: great response and find a diffrent church to go to

WOW. I think I'd print off a few hundred copies of that email and hand them out at the Easter service.

Tiffany, your response was perfect. Good for you for standing up for yourself.

:mischief "Dear Pastor, I am saddened to hear that so many of your congregation are so corrupted by our modern world that even in a time of prayer they cannot turn their minds from sinful thoughts, even to the breaking of the ten commandments. I will pray for them and for you as you try to lead them closer to G-d."

sapphire_chan, you've got me splitting at the seams :laugh: (much to the dislike of my nursing babe in arms! :lol Poor guy!)

It's always better to ask forgivness than permission....

(not that you would be needing forgivness in this situation but ykwim :wink }

I would go, sit in the middle or back, and nurse as needed. On the off chance I was confronted by anyone I would just be totally matter of fact. "WHAT are you doing?"
"Oh I'm feeding my baby?'
"Shouldn't you do that in the nursery?"
"No I don't think so, thanks though"

What I want to know is, lets say a man just happens to maybe catch a glimpse of the side or top of a breast, with a little baby firmly latched on--- would ANY man ACTUALLY get all hot & lusty over THAT?? I mean really!!! "Oooh, I saw a square inch of breast skin for all of 0.8 seconds, with a baby slurping it's lunch down...oooooo I'm feeling all tingly!" :rolleyes

Ha ha--this post made me think of "The Church Lady" character from Saturday Night Live and I started imagining her talking about people getting "their bulbous naughty parts all engorged and tingly" from seeing someone breastfeed in church!:rotflmao :laugh:

That said, as far as going--I probably wouldn't have asked either but now that you asked I guess I would either 1) write and argue the policy/request to nurse in the nursery, or explain why you cannot attend their service b/c you disagree with the policy. At this point my own personal thing is that I'm not interested in going anywhere that my baby can't go (unless it's absolutely necessary) and if it's somewhere that she can go it's somewhere she can nurse. And if someone has a problem with it too bad--would anyone ask permission to give a baby a bottle in church or in front of someone else? No! This is how MY kid eats, and other people's negative reactions and boob hangups are their own problems.

Have you just moved out of Central Florida, or have you just moved in? I'm an expatriate Gainesvillian, me.

I feel the need to point out that in Florida (and most of the rest of the country) the pastor's attitude is not only idiocy, but also illegal discrimination. You should point this out to him. I mean, not that *you* would sue him, but you wouldn't want him to risk his church if he pulled this stunt on a less forgiving person, y'know? ;)

Julia

Good heavens, that man and his Creator are seeing each other across a huge chasm...I'd sooner sit here holding my three year old embodiment of Life and prayer fully feeding her...I have problems with church as an institution, this sort of thing just reinforces them.

I don't ask... I just nurse my hungry baby. Really, if they have issues, it's their issue. If my nursing my baby in their house bothers them, then I'll just leave. :shrug I nurse in church, with my pastor's support BTW. Someone in the church is/was uncomfortable with it, so I wrote a letter to that anonymous person and had pastor pass it along. :mischief Maybe they got an education!

Jesus was breastfed. :)

Thank you ladies for all of your support! But I do want to point out, I didn't ask for permission, I just stated that I would be nursing my son in service. Anyways he replied back to my response and said that that verse is taken out of context, and then reiterated the whole "lusty men" thing. Although to his credit, he did apologize for offending me, but right before he accused me of being an obstacle to them coming to Christ. GRRRR! So I emailed him back....

"Pastor,

I can understand where you are coming from, but if I sit in the back of the church, which I would do anyways, and cover the baby and my breast with a blanket, I should not be exposed to anyone, nor be an obstacle to them coming to Christ. I do still plan to come Sunday, but I won't be going to the nursery to nurse. And I am quite shocked and offended at your request, but I don't believe in letting any one man in keeping me from attending a church which I feel the Lord is calling me too. And I would like to let you know that Florida law 383.015 which states "The breastfeeding of a baby is an important and basic act of nurture which must be encouraged in the interests of maternal and child health and family values, and in furtherance of this goal: (1) A mother may breastfeed her baby in any location, public or private, where the mother is otherwise authorized to be, irrespective of whether the nipple of the mother's breast is uncovered during or incidental to the breastfeeding. (2) A facility lawfully providing maternity services or newborn infant care may use the designation "baby-friendly" if it establishes a breastfeeding policy in accordance with s. 383.016."As God commands us to follow all secular laws which we live under, I am sure you would like to be aware of this one. I am not the kind of person who would take this to the secular legal system (as God commands us that Christians should not do this to one another), but I would hate to see something happen should a more sue-happy family come into the church and view this as gross discrimination. And as I am sure you are aware, Jesus was breastfed, and I am only following in God's perfect plan to give my son the perfect nutrition that He designed. I'll see you on Sunday."

And I can't take all the credit for these letters, I've just followed all of your wonderful examples to your problems with NIP harassment.

That's an awesome letter...

I wonder how he will react to the term 'nipple' used in the law text! (Sorry, bad me, but I can't help but feeling that he is probably project his issues on others).

Jessica

What a great letter!

Both of them, actually!

I can't wait to see what happens next :love

Subscribing because I can't wait to hear how Easter went <g>.

Can I just say I love the calm, confident, Christian manner in which you've approached this discussion. It would be awfully easy to just say "Well! I'm never going to go to THAT church!" I don't know that you'll be able to change this pastor's mind (thought miracles HAVE been known to happen at Easter LOL), but at least you won't be leaving a bad impression of nursing mothers behind you.

Good luck on Sunday!

Beautiful letters!

Yes, keep us updated!:thumb

I just read this thread, and I would like to commend you on your tactful, yet firm approach with this pastor. Both of your letters were wonderfully written. I agree 100% with you that nothing should come between you and the Lord's calling, and if He is calling you to attend this church, I highly doubt He would want you to be seperated from your baby or leave the service to go to the nursery should the baby get hungry! After all, like you said, Jesus Himself was breastfed, and I doubt the Wise Men or shepards, or anyone else in His presence during His infancy or toddlerhood was aroused when He nursed! :wink Anyway - keep us posted....and :thumb to you!

Happy Easter!

wow...what an eloquent response. You go mama!

I think you are handeling this BEAUTIFULY! I cannot wait to see your next update!

:o You SAID "nipple" Oh How embarrassing. Nipple :o nipple :o nipple :o


I am proud of you for getting back to him with actual laws that can't be disputed. If it were me I'd NOT cover up and still sit in the back. He doesn't know what you look like and you could be ANYBODY. How is he going to know that you aren't just another common Easter attender that wanted to come by for a visit? I have been know to be a rabble rouser at my current church so sorry for this. I nured DS in my ring sling in service ALL the time. Only one time did somebody know because they peeked at him without asking my permission.

Nipple :o nipple :o nipple :o Nipple :o nipple :o nipple :o Nipple :o nipple :o nipple :o Nipple :o nipple :o nipple :o

Well, after all this, I certainly hope he's a better preacher than pastor.

Well, after all this, I certainly hope he's a better preacher than pastor.

I agree

Wow, that is soo....I just don't know! I can't believe you feeding your child in the way God intended is considered lustful. I just don't know how I'd feel in receiving any type of instruction from this man, who apparently has some hang ups on the human body and thinks there must be something wrong or dirty with it! Why not celebrate the perfection of God's creation, and how beautiful it is that he planned for us to be able to provide for our babies?

afish you are killing me over here

SHE SAID NIPPLE :laugh:

great response, and I cant wait to hear how sunday goes

I admire your assertiveness! Your responses are terrific, and I'm hoping this pastor sees past his own biases and misconceptions about nursing as a result. I feel that I've been pretty lucky with church in general as ours is very breastfeeding and child friendly as a rule; however, we will be moving out of state with the military within the next two months, so I suppose I should be prepared with chapter and verse on nursing laws should I come against any type of resistance to my nursing in church in our new locale.

Can't wait to hear the next update - good going mama!

Also subbing because I want to hear how it goes on Sunday. AWESOME letter, mama!

Signing on because your letters rocked and I am absolutely appalled by this pastor's behavior.

Good for you, keep us updated on Sunday!

Great response!! Let us know how Sunday goes!!

You go, mama!!:thumb

And, btw, as surely as God meant us to nurse our babies, he gave us the ability to be aroused...ha ha ha. I admire your moxy, and await your post-church update.

sapphire_chan has the best response ever! Off to read the rest of the replies!

Way to go mama!
Subbing to get the Sunday update.
Janice

:mischief "Dear Pastor, I am saddened to hear that so many of your congregation are so corrupted by our modern world that even in a time of prayer they cannot turn their minds from sinful thoughts, even to the breaking of the ten commandments. I will pray for them and for you as you try to lead them closer to G-d."

:lol Dh and I THOROUGHLY enjoyed this!!!

Good luck on Easter! I'm eager to see how things work out.

Wow, that is soo....I just don't know! I can't believe you feeding your child in the way God intended is considered lustful. I just don't know how I'd feel in receiving any type of instruction from this man, who apparently has some hang ups on the human body and thinks there must be something wrong or dirty with it! Why not celebrate the perfection of God's creation, and how beautiful it is that he planned for us to be able to provide for our babies?
:truedat:

Subbing & :thumb

You could also remind him that some cultures regard women's hair and faces as inciting of lust in men, and ask him if in fact he thinks that men should be responsible for their own lust and treat women with respect rather than as sexual objects - most especially in a church!

I'm not christian, but I thought you were supposed to think of god at church, not the cleavage or buttocks or hair or crotch of the person across from you!

:thumb You rock! Wonderfully composed letters! I pray that your level-headed determination makes a positive impression and makes way for other mamas and nurslings to be received with joy into worship at this church. :hug hugs for you and your courage. Anxiously awaiting the update!

good for you!!! I love your response. Unfortunately, the pastor has a canned response - my DS got that and now pumps when there are people over at *her own house*

I hope I can find this thread again tomorrow. I'm curious about things will go.

Honestly, if I were a Christian and were church-shopping, I'd've had to politely point out something along the lines of SaphireChan's post. If nursing is such a problem for the men there, Nursing is not the problem!

Tiffany, I just read your posts to my DH, who is a pastor. He said, and I quote:
This woman is good. I like her. You should get to know her better.

I'm proud of you and will be praying for you when I am at tomorrow's Easter service.

:shrug Why is it always my snarky responses that people like?

:lol Although that is a good point, the ten commandments don't say "thou shalt not bare thy breast in thy neighbor's presence for that may cause him to be lustful" they say "thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's wife." It's supposed to be their own self control.

For that matter for Christians isn't supposed to just be like "love G-d with all your heart and your neighbor as yourself"? Not exactly neighbor-as-yourself to tell a little baby that they have to hide in a corner or starve just because the G-d-given way to feed them their mother was blessed with happens to also be a source of pleasure for her own husband in the privacy of their own home.

:o You SAID "nipple" Oh How embarrassing. Nipple :o nipple :o nipple :o


I am proud of you for getting back to him with actual laws that can't be disputed. If it were me I'd NOT cover up and still sit in the back. He doesn't know what you look like and you could be ANYBODY. How is he going to know that you aren't just another common Easter attender that wanted to come by for a visit? I have been know to be a rabble rouser at my current church so sorry for this. I nured DS in my ring sling in service ALL the time. Only one time did somebody know because they peeked at him without asking my permission.

Nipple :o nipple :o nipple :o Nipple :o nipple :o nipple :o Nipple :o nipple :o nipple :o Nipple :o nipple :o nipple :o

:lol :lol :lol :rotflmao :rotflmao :rotflmao :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

Too funny!
Can't wait for an update :)

I wouldn't go. You should feel totally comfortable in your home church.

calicokatt I agree. After all, this is the pastor, so how can the church become a relaxed spiritual home if something so fundamental is a problem? I would not attend a church if I felt the leadership had any objection to breastfeeding during the service.

Of course, anyone who suggests that male lust is my responsibility, or that breastfeeding and the lust of onlookers go together is not winning me over, either. Seems an odd view of sexuality. Would I trust this person's advice for me and my family? I couldn't.

Still, I am glad that at least he is hearing about the issue.

:lurk: subbing

Actually what that pastor is suggesting is just a variation on "blame the victim".

Men's feelings are their own responsibility, not nursing moms'.

You know that pastor is going to be scanning the crowd in a panic today for a woman who is baring her breasts. :lol

The response was wonderful! Cant wait to hear an update.

:laugh:

Waiting for an update! :lurk:

Men's feelings are their own responsibility, not nursing moms'.

:nod

Hope everything went well!

:lurk:

:eyes

No update yet? Church must be over by now!!

Okay, I'm curious too.

Personally, I wouldn't have gone to that church. The email response alone would've turned me off. I wouldn't have felt welcomed or respected. I am a Christian and I've nursed 2 1/2 year olds at my church with no one batting an eye. The priests (Episcopalian) have been totally supportive. Samuel was nursed until five years old by Hannah, I believe. Jesus was breastfed. There are lots of references in the Bible to mothers and nursing, and not one has to do with inspiring lust in men. If I were you, I would keep looking for a spiritual home.

You know that pastor is going to be scanning the crowd in a panic today for a woman who is baring her breasts.
That's what I was thinking. :lol

:lurk:

Can't wait to hear!!!

Thanks everyone for your support! I really appreciate it! I went this morning, and the pastor was really nice, told me I could nurse in service or in the nursery, wherever I was more comfortable. Of course, I had about 5 women come up and offer to take him to the nursery for me, but I just smiled and said he was fine, but I might see them in there if he got too fussy. DS was great through the music at the beginning of the service, but started getting fussy as the message was starting, so I tried to nurse him, but you all know 5-6 month olds and their curiosity/short attention spans. So, to prevent any discomfort for myself, I did go to the nursery. (Plus there was a really funky butt among us, and it was sitting on my lap.) But we did try to nurse there. Overall, it went really well, and we throughly enjoyed the service. Can't wait to go back next week!:thumb

I'm so glad you had a positive experience and that it turned out the pastor was just blowing smoke. I prayed for you this morning during prayers!

thanks annettemarie!

:clap good for you

:twothumbs
Please update again next week! :lurk:

Thats good! I've tried and tried to nurse James during the service, but he just won't pay attention ot me. LOL

oops...double post

I'm glad he didn't give you a hard time. I think the thing that swayed him was your proof that the law was on your side. He couldn't really argue with that.
:thumb

Glad you might've found yourself a spiritual home.:)

Go, Mama!