considering living in NL again

[Diane in Corvallis]

Hi mamas. My DH and I lived in the Netherlands for a year in 2000-2001. I worked for a Dutch company and DH worked in European operations for an American company. We left after only one year in part because I got pregnant and felt like I wanted to be back on familiar turf to have our first child. Living in NL did open my eyes and heart to homebirth, so when we returned to the US (to Oregon), we used a midwife and had a sucessful homebirth.:) But, I am getting off track here...

So, five years has gone by. FIVE YEARS - wow, I can hardly believe it. Our DD is 4 now, and we are pretty comfortable in Oregon. But...we have really been missing our Dutch experience. We are politically progressive, and are just disgusted with what has been happening in this country, the US I mean. We also struggle with trying to make environmentally friendly choices, like not using our car very much, but it is so much harder here. I have managed to set up my work at 30 hrs/week so that I can be more involved as a mama. But I definitely get comments about not working hard enough, and choosing not to travel away from my family for my job unless it is absolutely necessary. I know in the Netherlands that it is much more common to work reduced hours, especially if you have young children, and as I remember it everyone seems to understand that this is a good thing.

I guess I'm looking for some feedback and for a little reality check. :innocent I know we probably have our rose-colored glasses on about living in NL. Five years have gone by and we have forgotten all the tough stuff. :lol Here are the things that I remember were really hard.

1. Smoking - it was everywhere! Non-smoking sections at restaurants were a joke, and people would smoke even in the non-smoking cars on the trains. Is this still the case? I have heard that Europe is getting on board with limiting smoking in public places. DH is allergic to smoke, and I just wouldn't want DD to be constantly surrounded by it every time we went out in public.

2. Not making really close friends. I had some work acquaintances, and somewhat friendly neighbors, but I never felt like I really *connected* with people. It was partly our fault, since my husband was travelling constantly and it made it harder to schedule things to do. But, I felt like the Dutch were pretty hard to "get to know".

3. Trouble learning Dutch. I took some VU classes, but didn't get very good at Dutch. Everyone spoke English with me, even when I tried to talk in Dutch. So, when I got pregnant, the language barrier felt like a big deal. I wanted to take pre-natal yoga, for example, but I couldn't expect to find a class in English.

4. Feeling crowded and out of touch with nature. We lived in Amersfoort for 6 months, and then moved to a house just outside of Utrecht, technically in Houten. (I worked in Utrecht.) The second house we lived in was nice, but cost almost $2000 per month in rent. But my DH was going a little stir-crazy living in the city and travelling to cities all the time. We had never been big city people, and we just felt like NL was so crowded. Even "the country" didn't have any truly wild places. Since we have lived in the West of the US for so long, this was a feeling that took us a while to put our finger on.

Now, we are considering either moving out in the country somewhere in British Columbia (Canada), or moving back to NL. The part of us that would love to live in the country knows that that is just not practical in NL. Or is it? I don't know. I only traveled to Friesland once, and never made it to the south of NL.

Do you struggle with these same things? Are there others that would be on the top of your list? I can think of ways that we could have mitigated some of these problems, in retrospect. And of course, I have never had the experience of being a parent in NL! Any feedback on that would be really appreciated.

Thanks for reading. You get a stroopwafel if you made it this far. :lol

~Diane

[beansavi]

We are politically progressive, and are just disgusted with what has been happening in this country, the US I mean. We also struggle with trying to make environmentally friendly choices, like not using our car very much, but it is so much harder here.
~Diane

OMG---We feel exactly the same! We're goin' with ya'!:wink

[gabry]

Diane, I recognize a lot of the things you're describing, although my situation is a bit different. I'm Dutch, and just moved "back" to Belgium a month ago (which is, of course different, but pretty close to Holland) after living in the US for 9 years.
A lot of the disadvantages you mention are true:
The smoking - although less horrid than 5 or 10 years ago - is still everywhere.
It is crowded, although in the North/East/South of Holland you can definitely find much more rural areas to live. Rugges wilderness you won't find though, but you can always travel fairly easily to other countries to get a bit of that. At least you'll have enough vacation time to do that!
Learning Dutch can be difficult - my dh is struggling - , but i think if you can manage to fit in an intensive month long or so class that might make it easier. And be stubborn about speaking Dutch, even if their English might be better.
Making close friends, hard for me to comment on that. It was hard for me in the US, don't know yet how it'll be here. I think in general it's harder to make friends anywhere the older you get and the more everyoneh as their own families etc. Also, having lived elsewhere makes you never feel entirely at home anywhere, in my experience.
Other than that, higher taxes, racial tensions, difficulty and cost of getting childcare (in Holland, much easier in Belgium), cost of living..
But, overall, I think we'll be happy with our move.
I'm delighted about lots of things. People actually recycle here! I can bike to work and to the store and to the park! Public transportation is awesome. It's safe to maneuver the sidewalks with a stroller! I have 39 vacation days a year (+10 national holidays!!) and will have 15 weeks of paid maternity leave :thumb I will have a homebirth (although not common in Belgium, here in Antwerp it's possible unlike in my former home rural Arkansas).
Of course, I moved closer to family and not away from them.
Don't know if I added much to your pro/con list, but wishing you good luck with the decision. And, you may consider Belgium, let me know if you make it here :wink

[simonee]

I'll get back to this soon, I'm Dutch and moved back 3 yrs agao after 12 yrs abroad.

[Lara vanÆsir]

I was born in America, to Dutch parents, and am therefore a duel national. Growing up I spent my summers on my grandparent’s farm in West Friesland, and I later moved to Amsterdam to get my Master's Degree. It has been 15 years since I moved back to the USA. The Netherlands, and to a greater extent, Europe still pulls me. My DB is Norwegian, and often he expresses his wish to someday go back to Europe. We live in the USA, mostly because for a long time we didn't really live here (I know that makes no sense….). We officially resided in the USA, however spent most of our time overseas doing relief work or crazy things like riding elephants through Thailand; our bank accounts, jobs, and residence were in the USA, however I did not live in the USA long enough to rediscover the mono-cultured and backwards society I despise that dominates some American regions. DB did not live long enough in the USA to realize what it is like to live in an actual mono-cultured and backwards society. Then in the span of a year, I unexpectedly got pregnant, my sister got pregnant, we bought a new house, took high paying jobs in Indiana and adopted my sister's daughter.

I also miss having my main mode of transport be a bicycle. Perhaps you know how nice it is to ride a bike to the grocery store, or hitch a ride on top of the snelbinders.

An other thing I miss is the fact that Europe seems a lot more active, not in a sport-like way, but in a social way. I would like for my children to be able to participate and feel excitement over the same things I hold dear. I would much rather them feel an insane amount of enthusiasm about say, the World Cup – a truly international phenomena – than about the World Series – a North American phenomena.- To me, completely silly things also matter, such as the fact that in the USA, practically the only music on the radio is in English or Spanish. It all just seems like America is mono-cultured and isolated.

1. Smoking - it was everywhere! Non-smoking sections at restaurants were a joke, and people would smoke even in the non-smoking cars on the trains. Is this still the case? I have heard that Europe is getting on board with limiting smoking in public places. DH is allergic to smoke, and I just wouldn't want DD to be constantly surrounded by it every time we went out in public.Yes, smoking is still everywhere.

2. Not making really close friends. I had some work acquaintances, and somewhat friendly neighbors, but I never felt like I really *connected* with people. It was partly our fault, since my husband was travelling constantly and it made it harder to schedule things to do. But, I felt like the Dutch were pretty hard to "get to know". I find the Dutch manner of hosting very different than the American manner of hosting. An example: We often have some of my Dutch relatives over. We find it completely normal to have four guests in our home for a short term. We also find it completely normal to have long-term guests in our home. A cousin of mine one stayed with us for three months while she was getting clinical experience for medical school. The Dutch, in general, would not be so open to doing something like this.

On the other side, if you actually live in the Netherlands, you will feel a greater need to make friends. Now you also have a young daughter, and therefore getting in contact with other mothers will be quite a lot easier.

3. Trouble learning Dutch. I took some VU classes, but didn't get very good at Dutch. Everyone spoke English with me, even when I tried to talk in Dutch. So, when I got pregnant, the language barrier felt like a big deal. I wanted to take pre-natal yoga, for example, but I couldn't expect to find a class in English. If someone switches to English, just ask them to speak Dutch instead. Say you are trying very hard to learn Dutch, and you need as much practice as you can get. This will often please Dutch people, as recently there has been a lot of resentment towards immigrants (mostly the Islamic immigrants). This resentment is caused by, among other things, the perceived reluctantly of the immigrant population to adopt Dutch. Also, again, with a young daughter who goes to school, you will get more exposure to the Dutch language.

Feeling crowded and out of touch with nature. We lived in Amersfoort for 6 months, and then moved to a house just outside of Utrecht, technically in Houten. (I worked in Utrecht.) The second house we lived in was nice, but cost almost $2000 per month in rent. But my DH was going a little stir-crazy living in the city and travelling to cities all the time. We had never been big city people, and we just felt like NL was so crowded. Even "the country" didn't have any truly wild places. Since we have lived in the West of the US for so long, this was a feeling that took us a while to put our finger on. Yes, the Netherlands is crowded. A wonderful open (by Dutch standards) place is Groningen. There are no real "wild" areas such as in the American west, however flat, misty grassland dominates much of the landscape there. A wonderful thing about living in Europe, is that different countries and different landscapes are just a car-ride, or a train-ride, away. In a day, you can drive from Amsterdam to the Alps. A train ride can bring you in a day to the beautiful countries around the Mediterranean, or even to the Adriatic.

Maybe, you can find some sort of group composed of Americans who immigrated to the Netherlands, and ask them what their experiences were. The way I see things is probably not exactly the way you see things, as to me the Netherlands is also “home”.

Now, where’s my stroopwafel. :love

Lara

[rzberrymom]

Hi Diane,

We're living in Utrecht for three years and have a 16 month old--I'm American, DH is American/German and our DD was born in the Netherlands. Some of your concerns about living here are similar to ours.

1. Smoking- we were worried about this, but oddly, it hasn't bothered us all that much. The only place I really notice it is at restaurant/bars, but we don't really go to those types of places now that we have DD. In other words, the places that are really smoke-filled are maybe not the places you'd want to bring your child anyway. We spend most of our time outdoors (even in the winter), and only go to restaurants that are kid-friendly and therefore smokefree.

2. Not making really close friends- this has been a big issue for us. All of my friends are foreigners--I didn't mean for it to be that way, but it's been REALLY hard for me to really get to know Dutch people. I'm in a moms group, but they're all from outside the Netherlands (we're all tagging along with husbands who are doing postdocs at the university here).

DH and I have a few theories as to why it's so difficult to fit in:

a) most Dutch moms around here work (even if only part time), and therefore don't have as much time for playdates. When they do have time off, they're busy with clubs and activities, visiting family, etc. So, it's only the non-Dutch moms who I find have lots of time for playdates.

b) the Dutch moms that I've met already have a close circle of friends and it's hard to be welcomed in. It's a small country, and so people tend to not move around as much--often, if you have to take a job in another city you can just remain where you are and commute. So, the Dutch people we know have lived here forever and they already have their close circle.

c) I've also encountered a pretty hostile attitude towards stay-at-home moms that surprised me. One woman I met here explained to me that feminism was slow to arrive in Holland, and so now women are whole-heartedly embracing their right to climb the corporate ladder and stay at home moms are seen as behind the times and in need of educating.

d) having a child that's school aged helps so much. The people I know who have actually managed to integrate were only able to do so after their children started school. It opens up a world of afternoon activities, birthday parties, etc. You just don't get that with a younger child (unless you put them in daycare, but that seems to have its own issues here).

e) it seems to be essential to join a club, which we just haven't figured out how to do with a 16 month old. But everyone seems to belong to a team or club, and much of the socializing seems to revolve around that.

f) socializing seems to often involve inviting groups of friends over for dinner. I love this--it's so much easier than dragging a kid to a restaurant, and so we often try to invite folks to our house (just make sure you serve dinner promptly at 6pm).

3. Trouble learning Dutch- I guess you just have to do it. Learning the language will also help open up the social avenues. DH and I found it pretty easy to understand, but that the hardest part is just getting up the nerve to speak. Our trick is to practice with children at the playground or in the neighborhood--children like to have conversations that are slow and simple, they don't launch into English if they can't understand you, and they're very patient and willing to repeat things over and over.

4. Feeling crowded and out of touch with nature- I guess this can go either way. When we're back in the U.S., we get worn out by how far away everything is and how much you have to drive. Here, we hop on the bike and reach everything we need quickly. We can reach a forest by bike in 15 minutes. The beach is 30 minutes away by train--in California, we'd have to sit in traffic for 90 minutes to get to the beach on a nice day. Here everyone values outdoor space so much, and so everyone seems to have a little garden (emphasis on the little). I love that there are animals at all the playgrounds, and so DD has grown up running around with sheep, goats and chickens every day. I love that you can live on a farm and have a 30 minute commute to a major city. I love that my DD has grown up on a bike every day and loves the wind and the speed and doesn't even really know what a car is.

I do miss hiking and camping though--the Alps are pretty close, but goodness it's expensive. I miss being able to get in the car and head to a state park and pitch a tent for a few dollars. Even the campgrounds here cost a fortune.

Good luck with your decision! There are good and bad things about anywhere you go, and there really is so much to love here.

[Diane in Corvallis]

I have been on travel for work and then a short vacation (really short by Dutch standards!), so I am quite pleased to return and find all these thoughtful replies.

It is nice to hear that others have had similar experiences. I know in my heart that we could get past the rough patches if we choose to come back to the Netherlands. As for the social aspect, I think having a child would make it easier. And I always intended to sign up for one of those Dutch clubs (horse-back riding would have been my thing), but just never did it.

Some of your replies really brought a smile to my face. Some of my favorite memories are the red-faced little Dutch babies sitting in their own seat behind the handlebars of their parent's bicycle. Summer, winter, it didn't matter...they were all smiles. I could almost hear the tune inside their head,

"This is the way we go to work, go to work, go to work,
This is the way we go to work so early in the morning."

I hope we can come back for a visit sometime in the next year or two, to see what things are different and to reconnect with some friends we made.

Thanks again,
Diane

[mamaSun loveMore]

oooh, i've been following this thread with such pangs of homesickness!:gloomy:

I am and american citizen, but I grew up in Germany. My dad was military, but my folks were very enthusiastic about integrating into the host-culture, so I attended German schools and was basically a german kid growing up. I traveled often to the Nederlands for various activities and always dreamed I'd live there when I grew up.

Now I am in my later 20s, with an american DP who's an audio engineer, and a DS. I still dream of movin back, but the realities of living abroad as a non-national seam crippling. :dizzy: I so want DS to experience the richness of life overseas, and I may be romanticising, too, as its been a while, but there are so many things taken for granted here, that I'd just prefer he not adopt into his worldview.:(

Does anyone know anything about making a move like this? Any helpful websites? I'm getting ready to return to Law School and look forward to studying abroad to see if I can churn up some options....
I don't yet speak Dutch fluently but I can read it fairly well. I speak english and german fluently, so I find its sort of a cross between, and I an usually decipher....

What about teaching English?
Anything that will increase my opportunities for travel with dependants in tow...

I appreciate any help....

Thanks!!!!!

[LeftFootGreen]

Hi there!

I'm an American living in The Hague for the past (nearly!) 10 years.

As for smoking, it's been banned in all public places except restaurants and cafes (WTH??). Anyway, the government is going to ban smoking in those places too as of July 2008.

In terms of what I find most trying about the NL: house prices. It's much better to own because you get a significant tax break on your mortgage. But, a standard house that would cost 400,000 USD in Houston will cost well over 1.5 million Euros in the Hague (now equal to about 2.0 million USD). If you live outside of the cities you can find cheaper housing, but you need to be realistic about what is available. If you want to look at house prices, etc. and can read Dutch, check out www.funda.nl

In terms of making friends, the Dutch already have a fabulous network of friends. It's hard to break in, but you can do it through clubs. If you have a hobby (such as horse riding--that's where I met all of my friends), then you will have an easier time.

Also, be aware that if you were able to move back that you would probably have to go through inburgering (I can't remember if you have Dutch citizenship?). This will force you to learn the language because you won't be allowed to stay, otherwise.

Truthfully, Dutch is not that hard a language: the trick is to actually use it. I'm taking one-on-one lessons, and I'm finding that my Dutch is improving a lot, quite quickly.

Stay at home moms are a rarity. Most moms work 2-3 days a week and the Dutch believe that having your children in a daycare/creche for some time each week is very good for their development. But, I SAH for the moment, and I haven't received any criticism.

If you need/want more info, PM me!

Kym

[DariusMom]

Hi there,

I'm an American married to a Dutchie. I've been in Holland almost 8 years. I live in Amsterdam for over four years and have now lived in Leiden for nearly four years. I have an almost five year old son.

I agree with everything most of the PP have said.

Smoking is getting better and should be even better after the beginning of the year. Hallelujah!

Making friends is hard, even for Dutchies. Three of my DH's closest friends have moved abroad, and it's been tough for him to make new friends. He's a friendly, nice guy, but, in general, Dutch people make friends in childhood and/or at university and pretty much keep them for life. The country is small and people tend not to move very far away from where they grew up or went to school, so there isn't much perceived need or incentive to expand beyond your social circle.

That being said, DH has made new friends by joining a hockey club, which he likes. Also, because our son is in the local neighborhood school, we've started to become friendly with the parents of kids at the school, most of whom live in our neighborhood. But it takes lots of time.

I've had an easier time, ironically, because, when I first moved here, I worked for an international company. I still have a lot of friends from that job. I also made friends with some international neighbors who still live in Holland. Now I'm working on my PhD and that's more or less like being in school, so I've made some Dutch and international friends at the university.

As a foreigner, you might have it easier, since you can plug into all the international groups, especially if you live in the Randtad. It could be harder if you live outside the Randstad, though. Key would be not to expect too much from Dutch people, not to take what may come across as unfriendliness personally, and to understand that it will take a long time for most Dutch people to warm up to you.

As other people have said, you just have to keep talking in Dutch, even if people answer you in English. My Dutch got much better when we left Amsterdam. People were much more willing to speak to me in Dutch. I still engage in semi-ridiculous conversations where I'm speaking Dutch and the Dutchie is speaking English, but I just plow on. It really does help.

I do feel out of touch with nature here. You can get away to the Veluwe or the dunes or to other places but, by North American standards, it's not much. That being said, being so close to so much of Europe and being able to take the high speed train to Southern France or Switzerland in six hours makes up for the lack of landscape in Holland itself!

Housing is expensive. Not as expensive as New York or London, for instance, but compared to mid-size American cities, yes, especially for the space you get. You just have to get used to living smaller. Now, whenever I see the "requirements" that families have for houses on American home programs, I want to laugh!

I do love biking everywhere (most of the time. don't ask me when I arrive at work soaked). I love that our car is an old junker which we only use every once in a while and don't *need* to use at all. I like that my DH can have a high-paying job and still have Wednesday afternoons off to pick our DS up from school. I like that I can work 4 days a week (and we work more than most couples we know). I love all the local shops like the butcher, baker, cheese shop, etc. I think it is a nice way of life.

That being said, I miss the US. I miss space. I miss openness and friendliness and, let's face it, politeness and manners (not trying to diss the Dutch. I'm married to one!). Somehow here, for all the tolerance, I sense a lot of need to conform to a certain mold and to be put in a certain box. Yes, that exists everywhere, but I feel it more here (and I've lived in other countries, as well). I think there is a stronger exertion of social control than I've felt elsewhere. Ultimately, though, I miss the comfort of being in my own country and dealing daily in my own language. My Dutch has become fairly good, but I'm still at a disadvantage daily in my interactions.

We are considering go back to the US for a year or so, but, happily for me, I've finally realized that there will be a lot of things I miss about Holland if we do go.

[edlyn]

Just wanting to chime in here. We (me German, DH English) have been living in Canada (Toronto) for 8 years before coming to Amsterdam 20 months ago, and currently we are in the middle of the discussion of whether to stay on or go back -- we need to decide soon because I cannot further extend my leave from work beyond next Fall, plus we need to vacate our rental next year and don't know whether to buy or rent if we stayed..... Yes, I agree with pretty much everything the PP said, and it does make me feel a BIT more comfortable that we are not the only ones having trouble making real friends here. We made lists of the plus-es of either locations, and yes, I miss nature here as well, the smell of wood and such and I sometimes think my children might miss out on that aspect of growing up. Smoking is not that much an issue for us, we don't spend that much time in bars and restaurants anyways, and if so, they are either childfriendly or we sit outside. The cost of renting or owning is offputting, for sure! We would love to have more space, and finally get the rest of our furniture and books out of storage. etcetcetc.

[Diane in Corvallis]

I might be coming to NL again in the next few weeks!

My Dutch employer from 7 years ago contacted me and, over the last few months, we have been developing a plan for me to work for them again. :D I will remain living here in Corvallis, which is important as my DH and I are about to *finally* finish building our house and move in (3 year long process...ugh). So, I will be a telecommuter at first, but with the idea that as I see opportunities in the US that I will pursue them and eventually grow my own little office of the company. I'm pretty excited!

This fits in so well with our long term plan, which is definitely to live in Europe again. This company has grown a lot in the last 7 years, so there are now many offices spread all over Europe (and other parts of the world, too). We may come back to NL, or possibly Germany, the UK, Italy or France. But that's rather far in the future. Not really a concern now. Still, it's great to feel like we have made a way for that to happen, someday, when we are ready!

I am kind of in a daze. It took these folks many months to get the conversation really going, and now they want me on a plane in the next week or so. I have never traveled away from my DD, so that will be a little bittersweet. But I can't wait to see the Netherlands again!

BTW, I have a thread on the Working Mamas forum that talks more about the job.

Tot ziens!

~Diane

[gabry]

Hi Diane, I'm so excited for you! I actually saw (part of) your thread at the working mamas forum, and I was wondering if you were the same mama from this thread. Sounds like a great opportunity with lots of possibilities in the future.
I'm still in Belgium, but we're hoping to work our way to Holland in the next year or two.
Enjoy your new job!

[Diane in Corvallis]

Gabry,

Thanks for your kind words. I will be arriving in Amsterdam on Sunday morning. I can't wait to see the Netherlands again. The job negotiations are not final yet, but I am hoping they will be by the time I leave next Wednesday.

~Diane

[gabry]

Hey! I just got back from vacation and saw your post - you're arriving tomorrow in Amsterdam!? I don't know if you have any gaps in your schedule, but if you want to you could come to Antwerp one evening and we can have dinner at our house or in town. Unfortunately we're starting back on our daily routine of work and childcare on Monday, or I would come over to Amsterdam, but the train is totally doable if you're up to it, and of course I can pick you up. Let me know, and I'll pm you my contact info!