LDS Mamas #10

[Laurel]

Here we are!

[momnloveit]

Hey! I've been lurking, but haven't had time to post lately. Congrats to expecting moms. I'm always so excited to hear about new babes. For Christmas, my sister surprised everyone by announcing that she was pregnant. Her dh was treated for cancer 6 yrs ago, and they told him he was sterile. They'd saved some sperm before the treatment, but had never felt strongly that they needed to go through those procedures. Well, they didn't have to! They have a 7 yr old, who is so excited about the whole thing. He has been asking for a baby brother/sister since he was about 2. Whenever I'm having a bad day, I think of them and it cheers me right up. In fact, when they announced it, I was having a terrible day, and it was just what I needed to hear.
My other good news is that dh has a job interview in Provo next weekend. I really really hope it works out. My fam is from Idaho, and most of dh's lives in Provo area. We have really loved it here, but it is just too far away from family, and those connections are really important for us. As much as we love our life here (except for the job), we can't afford a couple thousand dollars twice a year to see family. Plus, I've had some nightmare plane trips, and I am ready to be done with that. So we really do have mixed emotions about it, but I'm hoping for Provo.
I'm interested to hear everybody's opinions about the term "Utah Mormon", and what you think about living where there is a large concentration of LDS as opposed to having the LDS population spread out, etc. There are some people in my family with really strong opinions on this, and dh and I have talked a lot about the differences, pluses and minuses, etc. I'm interested to hear what you think, though.

[MelissaEvans]

Welcome to our new mommies and new babies squirming in mommies! How exciting!

I've only been a Californian Mormon, so all I can offer is what I've heard from others. Some dear friends of mine moved terperarily to UT and then back. They were surprised that there weren't activities all the time like there are here. The mom said it felt like they didn't have to "prove" they were Mormon, it was more relaxed.

Another friend moved over and was disillusioned about the state. Her car was broken into and the radio stations don't silence the swearing in songs (which most of them do even here in a college type town).

I've been to the state when I was really young, too young to remember really, but I romantisize (sp?) the concept of living in such a high LDS concentration. I would love to be able to buy cute, temple appropriate clothing. I would love to have LDS bookstores nearby and temples close to me. I would love for stores to be closed on Sundays. I think it would be great if I didn't have to tell my children, "no, you can't go to that birhtday party, it's on Sunday" because no one would have their parites on Sundays. I don't know if that's the reality of the state, but that's my dream. =)

Has anyone read "LDS Living" magazine? I just got the subuscription and think it's pretty neat. Very AP concepts and such, and ads for modest formal clothing. It felt like what I imagine Utah to be like. =)

Have a great day!
~Melissa

[marlygf]

well I guess I am a Utah Mormon but not sure what that description is. I've never lived outside of Utah, but I think it's interesting when I go on trips. I mean the thing I love about Utah is the clean air act. You don't have to ask for non smoking. also I love what one of the posters mentioned that I can go to book stores and get church books. I love that, oh and the Mormon made movies that are recently coming out, are also a perk for me :)
I don't know, maybe someone could tell me what a "Utah mormon" is. I guess I'm pretty clueless in that aspect :P

[Bekka]

I was born in Provo, then my parents moved when I was tiny baby to CA. Then we lived everywhere. My parents moved back to Utah about four years ago for three years. There were some aspects of living in Utah that seemed very enjoyable, like having your doctor be a member or something like that. That lack of ward social events or EQ activities, etc., though, made it nearly impossible for my family to become social with the other members of the two different wards they were in. The people in the wards either seemed to be all related to each other and/or all such long-timers (the people who lived there >5 years were still considered the newcomers) that the social delineations in the wards were complete, and either clannish or cliquish.

My family has found that "having" to rely on the ward to develop a social family (and not have your actual family there) can really add to the Zion and family feeling of the ward.

I've also heard and observed the lack of "need" for having a strong testimony in the gospel by being surrounded by "cultural Mormonism." By saying that I'm not trying to imply that all Mormons from Utah don't have a testimony (some of my very very good friends are showing me otherwise every single day, right here where I live), but just that living in a "Mormon"ish society can actually contribute to a lessening of "need" for testimony. Or something like that. My friends from UT never had huge debates with friends in HS or college about whether or not God even exists, and how can I be in science and still have faith, etc. etc.

For a few reasons, UT is not our first choice of place to live, but we would definitely consider it, especially with the right job. We would probably choose to not live right in Provo.... On the other hand, the Lord can hardly have chosen a prettier place for the "stone to roll forth" from ... The climate is great, the desert is great, the mountains are great, etc. (the inversion over SL valley leaves much to be desired).

Okay, enough of my opinions of UT. It would be interesting for those of us that might ever someday move to there, what is the cost/availability of ways to eat/live naturally? Are there any CSAs (community supported farms), organic produce, free-range chickens for eggs, etc.?? Of course, we might garden ... Alternative housing/natural resource housing? I know there is a good college of midwifery and CNMs aren't the only legal kind in UT. What about farmers' markets and stuff like that? Stuff that makes places like Ithaca, NY so amazing (I've only been there a couple of times, but LOVE it).

And oh, I'm still sorry about the ER fiasco.

Love,
Bekka

[diegosmommy]

I lived in Provo when I went to BYU from '88 to '92 (with a mission in the middle). So I don't know a whole lot about the family life in wards, etc. I love the climate! Especially the summers, since I grew up in southern arizona where it is hot, hot, hot! I did really love having temples very close and generally modest clothing was more available. In arizona I have lived in mostly mormon settled communities. I think I understand what Bekka said about the ward. It is the same here where I am. A lot of family around contributes to the lack of reaching out for new friends. I don't have any family here of my own. My dh has some but not really close to them. We haven't really connected with very many in our ward. But anyway, I think Provo (or really Alpine would have been my choice a few years ago, north of Provo and really pretty) would be nice to live in for a while but I don't know about forever. I do know that a lot of people garden and have orchards, I'm pretty sure there are farmer types of markets in the smaller communities of the Utah valley. Sounds like it will be nice for you momnloveit to be closer to home again!

[momnloveit]

Thanks for the input. Sounds like some of the things we were discussing. My sister is adamant that she would NOT raise her kids in Utah. She lives in Las Vegas: somewhere I wouldn't really want to raise my kids. Her philosophy is that in Las Vegas the kids really have to decide whether or not they will choose the right because they are faced with blatant evils on a daily basis. (You should see the billboards on the freeway there). dd needs me, but I just think that no matter where you are, you will have a ward with strengths and weaknesses. There is nowhere that you could move and not have challenges. There is also nowhere that you could move that you wouldn't have great opportunities to serve the Lord. More to say, but dd is attacking the keyboard!

[ldsapmom]

I mean the thing I love about Utah is the clean air act. You don't have to ask for non smoking. We have this in California, too.

One thing I noticed about being a CA Mormon is in Utah it seems many kids take the Church for granted. A lot of Utah Mormons I have met seem to have the attitude of, "I can do whatever today, and later I will come back to the Church." But I guess that can happen anywhere.

Gotta go, my sister is dilated to a 6 and they want her to go to the hospital...even though she is not feeling like she is in labor...

[marlygf]

That's something I hate about here too. I'll sin today, but repent tomorrow. That's when repentance isn't taught very well. But you are right, that can happen anywhere but probably happens here in utah more. and in other religions.

[RasJane]

I grew up a non member in Idaho. Some communities in Idaho are more heavily Mormon than much of Utah!
The problem I have seen with this, especially among the youth, is a superiority complex. They seem to think that "the true Church" means, the only one with a clue. Forgetting Brigham Young's analogy of the mirror.
There seems to me the Mormon=good, everyone else=evil idea. Not that they say it, but it is there.
I want my son to be exposed to other cultures, other religions, other ideas, and see the good in them. In my experience, in what I have seen, many kids and often many adults in the "mormom immersion" areas do not seek after all things "virtuous, lovely, or of good report or praiseworthy."
This is sad as there is so much in the world and in other religions that are all of these things. I think that especially in these times, if we do not make a very serious effort to find the beauty everywhere in all cultures, we will only have more war and bloodshed and hate. Love is appreciating the the beauty in others.
To continue rambling, I want to share this story.
A very good friend of my grew up in a small Utah town. When she went to college, in UT, she heard the term "Utah Mormon." She wondered what could possibly be different about her and why so many people would have so much negative to say about Utah Mormons.
Then she and her dh transferred to Univ of Idaho. After 3 years there, she told me of her experiences and said, "to conclude, I really can't stand Utah Mormons. Guess I'll have to stay in N. Idaho!":LOL

Just wanted to add that I am feeling older. We had the missionaries over to dinner last night. As I sat there, I realized I was thinking, "what a great couple of kids." KIDS??? Yikes, I am such a mom!:love

[Laurel]

RasJane, you expressed alot of what I was thinking. I don't think this phenomenon is unique to Mormons--I think it happens any time one group is in a large majority. I have lived in Utah and also outside of it. While living in Utah, I had the unique experience of working as an organist in a Presbyterian church and seeing from their point of view what it's like to be an outsider in Utah. These were wonderful people. There were things we could learn from them. They were my friends, and I did worry about how their neighbors treated them, if their children had friends at school, etc, because the exclusion does happen. It is wrong, and it is not what the gospel teaches.

I want my children to be exposed to more diversity. There are things I love about Utah, though, such as being so close to Temple Square, the bookstores, etc. I do think that in some ways it is very insulated (although Melissa, you won't find many stores closed on Sunday). I think you can be happy anywhere you live. If we moved back to Utah, I'd be thrilled. I would find ways to teach my children the things I wanted them to learn. If we moved elsewhere, I'd be happy too.

I do think Provo is a very unique place. There's a reason why they call it Happy Valley! I went to BYU, and every time I go back to Provo, I feel like I'm in another world--it's very surreal.

[WriterMama]

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[MelissaEvans]

WriterMama - Congrats!! How exciting! I hope everything went as you worked for. =)

The vaccine quote actually came up earlier. Someone mentioned that there is a difference between when a leader speaks as a leader and when he speaks as a parent give his opinion. It was also mentioned that at the time the statement was made, they didn't have all the information. I haven't seen a GC talk on getting your baby's shots, so I don't think there's any worry about not obeying that one. =) I'm pretty sure you'll still qualify for a temple recommend. =)

Elsewhere on the boards, I found a link to www.ezzo.info and have found it really interesting. Someone here mentioned him, but I had no idea who he was; now I see the concern! Ohmygosh! Anyways, from that page, there's a link to http://www.abelhome.com/GFI.htm where some people who used to involved with Ezzo are explaining why they aren't involved with them any more. The part that frightened me was in the answer to "How does GFI contribute to their controversial reputation?" where the people say, "We have heard GFI's leadership boast about the "Growing Kids God's Way" curriculum being used in the LDS & Catholic Church." Did this really happen? Were there really LDS people who believe that babies are controlling, manipulating demons who have to be told who's boss from the get-go or they're going to screw up your life? Not quite what I equate to the LDS philosophy of humankind and babies... Besides, Ezzo doesn't hold the priesthood, he has no authority. Was this boast a lie? (I'd really like to believe that it was.)

~Melissa

[Laurel]

Originally posted by MelissaEvans
Someone mentioned that there is a difference between when a leader speaks as a leader and when he speaks as a parent give his opinion.

And yet, the vaccine statement on the providentliving.org website is in the form of two official first presidency letters on the matter, not simply quotes from casual conversation. They are speaking in their capacity as the First Presidency. I don't know the answer either. I wanted to email the website to ask about the meaning of these and if the Church does in fact still have a stand of vaccinations, but I was having trouble contacting the site. I agree with the idea that alot has happened since those statements were made. That was in the 1970's, and children today receive far more vaccines than they did at that time.

Melissa, I would be certain that the supposed reference on the Ezzo website is a lie. Church curriculum is very carefully prepared, and it doesn't include *anything* written by someone who is not a member of the church. All the lessons and teacher development instructions are so careful to state that teachers should use nothing outside of the lesson manual, the scriptures, conference talks, etc. Official church-prepared curriculum is all. You are right, what Ezzo preaches is entirely against the LDS view of the nature of children and the role of parents. Any LDS teacher who introduced that into a lesson setting would be far out of line.

[GratefulMommy]

Hello Everyone, I haven't posted in quite some time but I have been trying to at least keep up on the thread. You all have had some wonderful discussions and I have been wishing for more time to get more involved.

We live in Washington state and it is very easy to get a waiver for immunizations, thankfully. We have not vaccinated our 2 year old daughter and I have absolutely no reservations or concerns about being disobedient. I may at some point selectively vaccinate, but regardless, I still haven't even thought about this being defiant or against church guidelines. My sister had no problem getting a waiver for certain vaccines for her mission so I think that says something.

We also see a physician in Las Vegas who is an MD who practices homeopathy and has a really wonderful and successful practice. Coincidentally, he is an LDS member in very good standing and has been very supportive of our decision not to vaccinate. I would be interested to find out what you find out Laurel when you get in touch with a church spokesperson.

Another thing that caught my attention was some of the threads regarding Elizabeth Smart in TAO. People have been pretty harsh and critical of her family which just blows my mind. They are very uninformed and it's been a real disappointment to see how judgemental some people can be, especially on these boards. Anyway, wondering if any of you have seen these threads?

[momnloveit]

Okay, I'm still a dummy on some of these things. Could someone please explain what GFI and TAO are?

As far as the vax thing goes, I've posted my view on it a couple of times, but I am confident that being obedient brings the blessings connected to that obedience. It's not a thing of being a good mormon or not. It is a thing of making choices, and realizing when you choose to follow the counsel of the Prophets, you are choosing the blessings that follow. Even if my children should get some rare negative effect from vaccinations, I would not regret my decision. I would move forward and learn what the Lord would have me learn. I am confident that the 1st presidency would withdraw their petition if they saw some great danger in vaccines. It was, after all, included in a new church approved website. If the info wasn't current, don't you think they'd leave it out? BTW, I have done some vax research and really weighed the sides. I don't feel like I'm being blindly obedient. As with all spiritual AND temporal matters, you choose blessings by choosing to follow the commandments they are connected to. I think too often I find myself worrying more about what other people will think of me than worrying what the Lord thinks of me. I think we all pick and choose which counsel to follow. That is a part of being imperfect.
I watched the video produced about Gordon B. Hinckley when he became a prophet. We checked it out from the church library. It was wonderful. I highly recommend it. He spoke of humor and of its importance. His wife spoke of Pres. Hinckley's great ability to laugh at himself and to not take himself or things too seriously, except those things that needed to be taken seriously. I thought about some of the things that I've really stressed out about. Maybe I was taking those things too seriously. Then I wondered what things Sis. Hinckley was referring to that he does take seriously. An article came to mind that I had recently read by Pres. Kimball about food storage. He said that having your food storage is as important to our temporal salvation as boarding the ark was in the times of Noah. That is something that I have not always taken seriously. It reminded me that our temporal salvation IS important, but I also believe it must not get in the way of our spiritual growth and service. I have been trying very hard to incorporate the idea of "seek ye first the kingdom of God and His righteousness, and all these things shall be added unto you." I've had some really successful days and other not-so-successful days. It is amazing how many little things take up my time that I should be filling with seeking the kingdom of God. Wow, this is long. Thanks for letting me give an update on my growth. I know how faulty I am, so please don't take anything too personally. Feel free to disagree on the vax thing. That's just my take of it. Thanks, Sarah

BTW, Laurel, I thought you lived in SLC. Did I miss that you moved?

[Laurel]

Momnloveit--I've lived in southern Idaho for going on two years. I used to live in SLC.

[diegosmommy]

Well, back in February, I think, I posted my position on vax'ing. We don't, we may in the future when my kids are teenaers. Anyway I think it is a really good point made by gratefulmommy and earlier by Chumani that they both had siblings that served missions without vax'ing. Chumani's I believe had no vaccinations. If they had been breaking the word of wisdom or not a full tithe payer they would not have been able to serve a mission. But without vaccinations they did.

[Laurel]

I tend to agree with you, Diegosmommy. The Church is always so careful about giving parents the autonomy to make decisions for their families--hence, the position on birth control, the fact that we have no parenting "programs" like Ezzo, etc. I think vaxing is a very peripheral issue. I think that what's more important is how we're teaching our kids the gospel, whether we're exercising faith, hope, charity, etc. I think that parents who choose to not vax are fine. So are parents who selectively vax, and so are those who completely vax (provided they really research and make the decision carefully--I don't think that church principles advocate blindly following whatever the status quo is).

I've been thinking about alot of this lately, as I find that sometimes I get so caught up in parenting issues like bf'ing, vaxing, circ, co-sleeping, and others that I think I get distracted away from the most important things--teaching your children the gospel and helping them return to Heavenly Father. This has been on my mind alot lately, as I have even found myself personally feeling less close the the Lord, and I think it's because so much of my mental energy is taken up with worrying/debating about things that are peripheral (in the gospel lens). Not that these things aren't vitally important, because they are. Our SS lesson yesterday was on the parable of the sower, and it struck me deeply that maybe I'm like the ones where the seed is choked out by the cares of the world. Does anyone else ever feel this way. How do you find balance between being interested in, researching, and advocating for these things that mean so much to us here at MDC, but still keeping focus on what's eternally more important?

[Bekka]

Laurel,
I have had many times when I've felt that I was spending too much time here at MDC and other informative websites and not enough time focussing on what is important. It is my own feeling that when I get that uneasy feeling, it's time to back off from reading about or "researching" cloth diapers, gardening, or whatever, and read that book that dd is pestering me about, or spending their naptime either sleeping (to be cheerful when they're awake) or reading something uplifting, like scriptures. I'm a lost cause most afternoons, and so I usually read scriptures elsewhen, but you know, anything like that.

Another mom here posted one time that when she was feeling like that, she'd go to lds.org and read some old article from the Ensign before she'd come to MDC, and then she felt uplifted _and_ informed.:thumb

Recently I've been interested in and fascinated by diet and WofW, and I was reading in JT manual, p 89, bottom:
"We should seek toknow more about ourselves and our bodies, about what is most concive to health and how to preserve health and howto avoid disease; and to know what to eat and what to drink, and what to abstain from taking into our systems. We should become acquainted with the physiology of the human system, and live in accordance with the laws that govern our bodies." John Taylor

Just cool to read it again, that it's okay to be interested in good diet, etc.

[KindRedSpirit]

hey,been lurking.First I feel like I was insesitive to KatherineinCa last time I posted.I'm truly sorry if any feelings were hurt.

Second,on "utah mormonism",it is alive and all-too-well.I was raised a bit of a liberal mormon in the midst of this, and I have been learning that if we look at each individual as God does,it is so easy to love the good that is in everyone,we all have good to offer.Also,Utah culture today is like an adolescent,going every direction it can all at once trying to find who it wants to be.Ya win some ya lose some.

Just another note,does anyone else feel they are considered"freakish"for having or wanting more than 2 kids? I announced this pregnancy at Le Leche Leauge last meeting and there was an audible gasp through the room!sheesh!

Bush is on,gotta go.:(

[RasJane]

I am so very grateful to be a member of a church where education, knowledge and research are expected, cherished and valued.
I have never heard (from anyone worth listening to--ie general authorities) that we should ever accept any counsel blindly. Not from the Prophet, and most certainly not from the rest of the world. Even food storage, although something we all need to do, is something we need to pray about to learn the Lord's way for us to do it.
My problem I think is that I get caught up in the research and what *I* think, that I forget to kneel and ask for knowledge from the source. I am sure that there are many times things would have gone better for me and my family if I had not been so stubborn and asked the Lord for help and wisdom.
Momnlovit--I don't know GFI, but TAO is Talk Amongst Ourselves
AudreyJoy, I think I am sometimes considered a little freakish within the church for only having one who is 4 know. I get a lot of, "is this your only?" Sort of in the tone where they are wondering if I am "normal" and the rest are in school or something.
However the same people are just astounded that my friend has 4. I think the surprise there is that her oldest is 4, and her youngest is 5 mo.
No one else ever has a normal family I guess:)

[momnloveit]

I think I may have given the wrong idea in my last post, I hope I dindn't offend anyone. I was referring to Doctrine and Covenants, 130:20-21 "There is a law, irrevocably decreed in heaven before the foundations of this world, upon which all blessings are predicated--and when we obtain any blessing from God, it is by obedience to that law upon which it is predicated." and 1 Nephi 3:7 "I will go and do the things which the Lord hath commanded, for I know that the Lord giveth no commandments unto the children of men, save he shall prepare a way for them that they may accomplish the thing which he commandeth them."
I was actually thinking of a time in my life when I was very judgemental of others and extremely irritated when I heard of members who worked on Sunday, watched rated R movies, or whose children went to daycare. This scripture helped me realize that it is none of my business what choices they make, and that nobody will recieve the blessings for keeping the Sabbath unless he is keeping the Sabbath. You can't recieve blessings for paying your tithing unless you pay your tithing. My big one I had to figure was, I can't have the blessings of fasting unless I fasted. I knew that the Lord or anyone else didn't expect me to fast as a nursing mother. That doesn't qualify me to have the same blessings as those who fast. Some of my most meaningful fasts have come since then. So I was trying to say that the Lord allows us to grow precept upon precept, and as we choose one by one to follow the commandments, we will be blessed in turn.

I'm trying to figure out the blind obedience thing, though. Isn't that what faith is all about? Taking a step because you've been told it is right, hoping that you will be blessed for it. Today I was reading the manual Our Heritage. It told of a man who was called from Salt Lake to settle a new area. He wrote that he had been in the Valley for 7 years and had been through hunger, cold, famine and all sorts of hardships. He had just completed his home and had his orchard finally bearing fruit, and now he was asked to leave it all. He insisted that he would not complain or question, but follow the prophet. He was, of course, greatly blessed in his new settlement. Do you think that was blind obedience?

I do apologize if the tone of my last post was inappropriate. I am really only trying to sort out my own growth and feelings. Thanks for your understanding. I know that the Lord expects us to consult him concerning our families. He actually commanded Nephi to slay Laban, and that was breaking one of the top 10! I think the point is that we need a relationship with him so we know what to do. But then, being obedient is HOW we develop that relationship. There are so many paradoxes in life! I am waxing way too long! AGGGHHH

[Bekka]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by momnloveit
[I was actually thinking of a time in my life when I was very judgemental of others and extremely irritated when I heard of members who worked on Sunday, watched rated R movies, or whose children went to daycare. This scripture helped me realize that it is none of my business what choices they make, and that nobody will recieve the blessings for keeping the Sabbath unless he is keeping the Sabbath. You can't recieve blessings for paying your tithing unless you pay your tithing. My big one I had to figure was, I can't have the blessings of fasting unless I fasted. I knew that the Lord or anyone else didn't expect me to fast as a nursing mother. That doesn't qualify me to have the same blessings as those who fast. Some of my most meaningful fasts have come since then. So I was trying to say that the Lord allows us to grow precept upon precept, and as we choose one by one to follow the commandments, we will be blessed in turn.

I'm trying to figure out the blind obedience thing, though. Isn't that what faith is all about? Taking a step because you've been told it is right, hoping that you will be blessed for it. [Endquote]

I was nursing dd#1 AGAIN in the mother's lounge during the sacrament and I was generally pretty frustrated about it. But all of a sudden I got the specific overwhelming feeling that I was exactly where I was supposed to be, and the Lord knew that if I were where I could be to take the sacrament, then I would. This was a great relief to me, and I believe that we _do_ have claim on those blessings that, all other things being considered, we would be doing (fasting, reading scriptures daily, actually physically taking the sacrament, etc., you know, any of those things that often become really hard to do when we are parents of young children). I don't believe that if someone is so sick that he or she can't come to sacrament meeting that he/she won't receive the blessings for going to SM, for example. The commandments are for our benefit anyway, not the Lord's benefit. If we are in the mindset of keeping the commandment, even if our "bookkeeping" doesn't come out even, it still gets counted for us.

I also think there's a difference between following with blind faith and following the commandment faithfully. What people usually refer to when they speak of "blind faith" actually isn't faith at all (in my experience), but the other way of actually relinquishing their free will and not thinking about their choices (and therefore putting blame and individual responsibility to their leaders. This seems to happen a lot in cultures with kings). Following a commandment faithfully means a thoughtful acceptance of the commandment, _even if_ we don't know why it's important, or what it means. We say, "I will choose to follow this commandment, because it's from God," expecting the blessing for our faithfulness (faith has to do with expectance, not just desperate hoping, too) and also eventually learning the "why" for the commandment!

I don't know that anyone was offended. It does seem that they can be conflicting, and I don't know that my explanation helped at all--it probably put you all to sleep:zzz instead ...

[WriterMama]

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[Laurel]

Originally posted by momnloveit
My big one I had to figure was, I can't have the blessings of fasting unless I fasted. I knew that the Lord or anyone else didn't expect me to fast as a nursing mother. That doesn't qualify me to have the same blessings as those who fast.

I guess my feeling is that I don't see it this way. The obedience is as much in the intent and where your heart is as in the actual "doing". To me, this is not the same thing as making exceptions to rules, because people who are looking for exceptions to rules do not have their heart in the right place. In the Beatitudes, it says "blessed are those who hunger and thirst after righteousness" not "blessed are those who are righteous. There is a scripture somewhere, and for the life of me I cannot remember where (D&C, maybe?), that talks about the blessings given to "him who keepeth [these sayings], and him who seeketh so to do..." If you are kept from completely keeping a law by circumstances beyond your control, I believe you are blessed for your desire just the same as the person who can actually live it in the "doing" sense. I believe a nursing mother can receive the same blessings of fasting as any other person--if her heart truly would fast, and if she makes efforts to make Fast Day a special, sacred time of reflection and prayer.

Forgive a personal example: if we are commanded to multiply and replenish the earth, can I who did not have children for a long time receive the same blessings as a person who has many children? Yes, because I am living that commandment to the best of my ability. In fact, in some ways (desire, where my heart is, effort), I am living it more completely than some people who have ten kids. Because ultimately, it's about attitude. All things are both temporal and spiritual, and the physical evidence of the living of the commandment is only a tiny part.

In regards to the blind obedience idea, I think the thing is that the man in the story had already searched, pondered, and prayed and received his own personal witness of the prophet's authority. That's why he could obey without question. To me, that is not blind.

[MelissaEvans]

Quick two thoughts before DS gets too cranky for me to type.

Fasting - another nursing mom mentioned that even though she couldn't fast, she'd forgo the "good stuff." She wouldn't put sugar on her cereal, she wouldn't have desert type of thing. It was still a sacrifice, but she was able to feed her baby. It made sense to me. Whatever works for you though! =)

Blind faith - I think I would be willnig to follow councel from the first presidency without too much consideration, but I've prayed over the concept of our leaders and feel confident that they are the mouthpeice of God. So even if I don't question their directions, I think it's still "good" (i.e. not blind) faith. Does that make any sense?

Off to nurse, have a great day!
~Melissa

[MelissaEvans]

Oh, I think GFI = Growing Families International, Ezzo's company.

[WriterMama]

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[momnloveit]

Sorry, I sent the same message twice!

[momnloveit]

I really appreciate all the input on this. It gives me a lot to think about. I think as far as fasting goes, I was always really glad to have an excuse not to. I had to force myself to do it even though it was extremely difficult to do so while nursing. I do believe because it was a greater sacrifice, I received a greater blessing than I ever had. But I think you're right that God looks on the heart, and knows our intent and desires. I think there's too often a desire for an excuse not to keep a commandment, though, and justifying our lack of obedience does not suddenly open the windows of heaven. We are required to DO something, not just wish we could. Then, after all we can do, of course the Savior makes up the difference. Forgive me, I am really considering so much here, and this is really a good exercise for me. I think of the blessings a person gets from going to sacrament meeting: Contact with members of the ward, partaking of the sacrament, listening to others' views and testimonies of the gospel. If you don't attend, you don't get those things. That doesn't mean you're bad, it just means that you chose the blessings of peace and health that staying at home bring-also good. A better example of this was a couple of weeks ago, it was ds's birthday. We had planned a trip to Albany to the museum, etc. We had really planned to make a day of it. Then we found out it was stake conference, and that there was a stake leadership training mtg. at 4:00pm. As a family, we decided that our plans were more important, and that dh would spend the day with us. We took responsibility for the fact that dh would be missing out on some inspired teachings from a general authority. He chose the blessings of spending the day with his family over that. They were both good things, but he didn't expect to have the blessings of attending that meeting even though he couldn't go. So that's kind of where I'm coming from.
I don't think the multiply and replenish the earth thing was even a choice for you, Laurel. You did do everything you could, so the Savior makes up the difference. Forgive this analogy I heard in seminary ( on a side note, I have learned to question EVERYTHING I learned in seminary because I have found so much of it to be "mormon legend" and false ) but this one makes sense to me. There are all these blessing buckets with strings attatched and when you are obedient, it is like pulling a string to the bucket and all these blessings spill out. Sometimes you have to choose between two strings, even though either one will bring blessings. You don't get the blessing unless you pull the string. Feel free to flame that one, but its a simplistic way of looking at it. I was just thinkin of Adam and Eve. They were commanded not to eat of the fruit. Eve was beguiled and ate. Then Adam had to choose between staying in the Garden or staying with Eve. He could NOT have had both the blessings of staying in the garden and the blessings of staying with Eve. He had a pretty good excuse, but the Lord still cast him out. I love hearing what y'all have to say about this. It has really been a growing experience.
I also wanted to say thanks for putting up with me all this while. As weird as I feel for coming here sometimes, I know I am a better mom because of MDC and because of you. Sometimes, I am like Melissa Evans and come across things I almost wish I hadn't. It is good to rock the boat a little and really search for the truth, though. So much of it still to find! Like the time I read something about banannas being so cheap because children and slaves pick them. That was more than I could handle. I couldn't delve into that path! So I have to say a prayer to bless whoever picked the banannas every time I buy them. Maybe someday I will be ready to support fair trade, but now I am not. I don't even want it disturbing my peace becuase I have to worry about so many other things right now! I'm trying to replace all my worries with faith, but then defining faith can be such a challenge. Thanks for helping me through it.

A really great and short book is by Glen I Latham. Parenting with Love: making a difference in a day. It really does make a difference in a day, and it is 100% positive. It is a little too scientific for me, but I am a better parent because I read it. I got it at Deseret Book.

[milk4two]

I'm new here. I'm enjoying the thread. I hadn't read the church's vax statement before.

I am a Utah Mormon; my husband grew up in the south. According to him the church outside Utah is very different. We decided that the blessings that come from being a surrounded by other church members outweigh the blessings of being one of a few. He felt like the members growing up had strong testimonies, because they had to defend them repeatedly. At the same time, everyone dated and often married non members, because there weren't many members around.

I'd like to hear everyone's thoughts on the word of wisdom and what eating meat sparingly means to you. Also about grains, in one part it says they are good for man and in another verse says to eat them only in times of famine.

[Bekka]

I just had to check D&C 89. In verse 14 and 15, where it refers to grain and animals, I really think the "these" in verse 15 refers back to "the beasts of the field, and the fowls of the heaven, and all wild animals that run or creep on the earth", which are "for the use of man only in times of famine and excess of hunger."

Our family's interepretation of this is that we eat meat sparingly. We eat a "meat" meal like chicken or beef about once a week. Occasionally twice a week. We try to eat fish once a week, and that topic isn't really described in the WofW, but I think it's probably similar. We surely aren't in a time of famine, and we are actively working toward a more vegetarian diet. BUT--cultural biases are hard to overcome, and I think that if someone grew up eating meat every day, then he/she may in their lifetime learn to eat meat once a week, then their kids might eat it even less.

On the other hand, a separate section in the D&C, when referring to a certain group that required vegetarian diet, the Lord told JS that it wasn't right to forbid the eating of meat. But a personal choice to eat veg. is very supported in the WofW. My grandma eats no meat anymore for her heart health--it has kept her chol. way down.

Just my 0.02. Boy, I've had a lot of 0.02s recently ...

[RasJane]

I am so sorry momnlovit. I didn't mean at all to sound like you had offended me. I especially hope that I didn't offend you. None was meant.
Bekka, you are rich with 0.02! I love you for it!
I also agree that the WofW wording limits the intake of meat. Think of the primary song (I forget which one of course) that says, "they eat but little meat." I know that we are healthier when we don't eat much meat. Other advantages: our food budget is lower when meat is not purchased, meat is hard to store--unless you raise your own (small) animals that can be killed and eated as needed, regular meat in the store is loaded with all kinds of stuff I worry about feeding my family and organic is expensive. Of course, I end up feeding my family way more convential stuff than I want. I am like you, Momnlovit, I just say a prayer asking HF to bless it and our bodies that we will get what we need from it and the rest will pass harmlessly through us. I don't know if that is what he wants me to do totally, but I make the best guesses I can.

I also wanted to mention that Quellas kids are both sick. so could you include them in a quick prayer if you have a chance?

I am off to tackle the disaster that is called my bathroom. My ds announced yesterday it smelled and it was time to clean. It must really be bad!:eek

[momnloveit]

I've wondered about the meat thing, too. I have never been a big meat eater. I always asked my mom to prepare dishes with ground beef like spaghetti and stroganoff without the meat. I can't really handle eating a big hunk of chicken breast or steak. I've never wanted to go vegetarian, though, because of the verse in Doctrine and Covenants 49:18-19. But if you go down a couple of verses to verse 21, it says, "wo be unto man that sheddeth blood or that wasteth flesh and hath no need." Obviously the beasts of the earth are precious to the Lord, and He is not pleased to see them wasted. In v19 it says, "for behold, the beasts of the field and the fowls of the air, and that which cometh of the earth, is ordained for the use of man for food and for raiment, and that he might have in abundance." THe
WOW says to eat meat sparingly, in times of cold, winter, or famine, and excess of hunger.
I think that I experienced what could be called an excess of hunger after dd was born in July. I hemorraged (sp) quite a bit and was very weak for a couple of weeks. Since then, I not only tolerate meat, but I crave it. I still don't like huge portions of it, but I love spaghetti with meat sauce or even meatballs. That's a big thing here in NY, and I would NEVER have eaten meatballs before! Luckily they were made by my health-nut friend out of ground turkey, ground rolled oats, and ground kale. They were so delicious! Anyway, I think if we learn to listen to our bodies like we heard in that quote from I think John Taylor? a couple of posts back, we will know what our bodies need. I think we can experience excess hunger or even famine for certain foods. I definitely feel that when I go too long without fresh fruits and veggies. (I sometimes feel that way for ice cream, but I don't know if that qualifies :) )
I think it is wonderful that the Lord promises hidden treasures of knowledge for following the WOW. It is really exciting to me. Did any of you read the article in the March Ensign about it? I found it really enlightening.
Ras Jane, you're thinking of "In our Lovely Deseret." And, no, I was not offended. I have just been going through so many intense changes so quickly lately that sometimes I stop and wonder who I really am and what I really believe. I read the newspaper last night for the first time in years. I am basically cut off from the world, except for the rare time that I get in the car and listen to NPR instead of "Dr. Fun's House" or "Grandpa's Farm". I was really disturbed after reading the paper, feeling like I don't know how I feel about the war with Iraq. It seemed like I could have read and read and studied and researched and everything I read would be someone's perception. So what's the truth? I feel like on so many things I just have to have faith that the Lord will direct me and help me grow, whatever happens. I hope that the difference I am trying to make in the world in my little house on my 3 little ones is enough of an offering for now.

[ldsapmom]

The book I mentioned before was , "Pregnancy, Birth, and Your Growing LDS Family," by Kathleen Tooley Johnson. It is wonderful. It is available through amazon or directly through her website, which I don't have the link for right this minute but can get if someone is interested.

So many things! I have been away from the computer for a few weeks. I was able to attend my a birth which still has me feeling high. My little sister had her second baby, another boy, Friday March 14th. I was able to be her support person, which was great.

The Sunday before she was due we were talking to a friend who had just had her second baby 5 weeks before. My sister asked if she had any advice for her. Our friend said, "Get the epidural!" My sister said she did not have one for the first and she did not plan on one this time. To which our friend replied, "I did not have one with the first either -- it was great, get one!" She was a die-hard Bradley birther with her first, so I thought it was strange she would opt for the epi, but whatever.

That conversation left my sister reeling. She was already having the normal anxiety over birth many mothers feel when coming to the end of a second pregnancy. She spent 17 hours in labor with her first with all kinds of interventions (IV, ARM, Pitocin). She did not want a repeat of that. SHe asked the Bishop and a counselor to give her a blessing.

She said after the blessing she had the feeling if she just listened to her body, everything would be fine. Her state of mind was totally switched from the anxious, scared mentality she had been carrying before the blessing.

Thursday she went in for an appointment. She was dilated to a 5-6, 100 % effaced. The doctor said she needed to get to the hospital right away. She said she did not want to go yet -- she had not eaten lunch yet. She was still not in "active" labor -- she was having mild contractions, but nothing painful.

We finally went to the hospital at 5:30. The doc on call was a real jerk (LDS, in fact). He would have liked nothing more than to pop in an IV (which she protested against), ruptured her membranes, and then given her pit if things weren't moving along fast enough. Luckily, she was strong.

At 8 pm she was at an 8, but still no pain. She did allow an IV at that point. At 11 pm she was STILL at an 8, so we started to discuss ARM. At midnight she agreed, and Curtis Brad Johnson was born 1 hour, 14 minutes later, after about 5 minutes of pushing (lucky duck!). He did have the cord tightly wound around his neck -- the doctor had to cut it before the shoulders were even out. BUt he was fine. We got the whole thing on video (actually, we have all 6 of our births on video! I was thinking of compiling them -- too strange? We sisters have weird hobbies!).

Here is the interesting thing: There is speculation that had the doc broken her bag when he wanted to, Curtis would have experienced a lot more stress with the placement of his cord, perhaps resulting in more invasive procedures and maybe a c-section. Sarah really feels she did just what she was supposed to do to ensure his safe arrival.

It was so much fun. She should have her next one at home, it was so easy.

[diegosmommy]

Congratulations to your sister! What a great birth experience! It is hard to be strong, especially when you don't have your doctor with you and your in the hospital with all their interventions right there.

I'm sure you helped her a lot, Good job!:)

[KindRedSpirit]

Yay to a fellow march 14er(that's my birthday)Also Einsteins!Good for her for letting herself know what to do!And lucky you for getting to be there!I'm still wanting to be at a birth without me in labor,in fact I'm hoping to go to at least one (homebirth preferably)with my kids as part of their/our preparation for this one.When Dylan was comming Asher and my mom and I watcher a lot of births on video in case Asher was interested in helping and my mom was his sitter for the birth.It was fun and Asher was so exited he fell asleep and managed to sleep through all the noise!Which gave my mom the chance to take pictures,cool! Sorry,i got rambly....:)

[ldsapmom]

That was the third birht I had been to of my sisters. The first my older sister had been planning a homebirth but her water broke 5 weeks early. It was a hospital birth, but it turned out so differently because her lay-midwife, with no hospital privileges, actually delivererd the baby (with the midwife on-call watching the whole thing).

The second was the same sister's next baby, which was a successful homebirth. I was able to attend the midwife both times (she was in the Asian Branch with me so we knew each other very well).

The last was this one, my little sister. I was not able to be at her first birth because it was in Idaho. Her first experience was so bad -- she yelled and screamed a lot. When she called her step-mom from the hospital while laboring, who lives in Idaho and was with her fo the entire first labor, her stepmom asked, "Did you get an epidural?" because she was so calm and not in pain. We had to laugh.

I think someday I will pursue midwifery -- I just love birth so much. Of course we sit around and watch all kinds of birth videos as well!

[momnloveit]

I also would love to be a doula or a midwife someday. I think I'll need something to get my "fix" after I'm no longer birthing babies. I've been consumed by childbirth and babies as long as I can remember. I think I've run the gammet in personal experience because I remember telling dh when I was preg with #1, "I would NEVER do natural childbirth. I don't pee in an outhouse, and I don't want the pain of childbirth." Everyone assured me that epidurals were miracle drugs and that the risk of side effect was sooo low. A week-long spinal headache taught me that childbirth is not the worst kind of pain. It is much worse to miss out on your baby's first week of life! Well, as most of you know, #3 was a wonderful waterbirth, all-natural except for the IV I had because of being Strep B pos. There is something so wonderful and beautiful that mothers miss when they don't feel their babies coming out. I'm not saying that you can't have a beautiful birth experience if you have an epidural, but there is a deeper level of giving birth that I definitely prefer. I'd love to help other mothers discover that. I even had a dream last night that I assisted my sister in a homebirth. She had a terrible experience with her 1st 7 years ago. I don't think I could talk her into a drug-free birth, but it would still be wonderful to be with her. The dream was nice, anyway.
We're moving to Provo at the end of April. I am so overwhelmed with all I have to do. I really should go do something, but I thought I'd let you know I'm soon-to-be a UTAH MORMON! I am determined to break the stereotype!!!

[marlygf]

I love to come here and see that there are LDS women who are educated. I feel like such a minority in my ward because I actually want to know what's going on. I don't like drs and would love to have a home birth for my next or 3rd. They all think I am dumb because i want a home birth. I guess it's just nice to see there are people who have the same beliefs in religion and birth :)

My first, which is still my only, I went natural. I went to 42 weeks and up until the day I went into labor people kept telling me I was going to get an epidural. I didn't know what was good for me. :) then I had a 9lb baby. I guess I showed them :) anyway, I am rambling so I just thought I would share a little more of myself since it's so good to see people feel the same as me :)

[Quella]

I just want to pop in and thank you for keeping this thread up. I am an avid reader of the posts, but I don't take the time to write my own very often.
And I wanted to thank you for the prayers offerred for my kids. I noticed RasJane's post including our need--wow, I am really touched by you all.
Jarom, my 2 year old, got through a bout of hand,foot,mouth syndrome.. He was so uncomfortable, what a terrible illness. I'd never heard of it until I looked it up in a baby book. I thought it was chicken pox at first. Ava had a mild cold, but was mostly her normal chubby happy self through it all, and of course nursing constantly.
Then this week I got a touch of mastitis and an awful bladder infection. I begged my husband to stay home with us today, I knew I couldn't put my immune system back in order without adequate rest! And it worked, I feel tons better. I am so relieved, I really didn't want to go on antibiotics.

momenlovnit (did I get that right?)
I might be visiting Provo right when you are moving. During Women's Conference. Are you buying a home there? My sister lives there right now and they are in the process of buying a huge house (a major fixer-upper), like 3500 square feet! They are ambitious. She just gave birth last week to her 5th baby and is a total...a birth-aholic? Birth-fanatic, birth crazed, birth goddess?...hmmm there must be a more poetic way to put that!
She spoke endlessly of her plans for this birth, having learned much from the 4 previous. It was so fun to be her sounding board, and she ended up with her almost ideal birth experience (she has serious prolapse and the complications make it too dangerous to birth at home I guess).

Well I shall stop prattling now.
Oh, and RasJane is enjoying a week at the coast with her family, lucky duck!

You ladies are just lovely, thank you so much for just being here!

[Bekka]

It's nice to know I'm not the only natural childbirth junkie around here. Along with BF, I feel like I talk about CB endlessly sometimes, and I really think I must drive some of my friends crazy (except for a few :D ).

[marlygf]

oh yea, I talk about it constantly! I want to be a doula when I grow up :) well, when dh is done with school :)

[Quella]

I also love to talk about birth. I do not have one friend, other than my sister in Utah, that shares this passion.
The other day at a baby shower I got into conversation with some older ladies in our ward. They both have grandchildren my age and older. They somewhat shared my perspective, but were also very surprised to hear that I felt so strongly and happy about the childbirth experience.

anyone want to share birth stories?

[Bekka]

How can you choose if you want to be a doula, a midwife, CB educator, etc.? I really want to do something like this (also after dh is done w/ school) but I really don't know what ...

[ldsapmom]

I know I want to be a midwife because I love that aspect of the process -- the tail end. CB education does not interest me in the realm of solely educating before a birth with nothing else involved. As a midwife CB education would be a part of it, but you also get to go through the birth process as well.

[KindRedSpirit]

A sister birth junkie here!I am so exited to get to do it again!I hope i can get this one on video,and maybe have my sisters present and my mom of course,again.I have been thinking of becomming a doula this year,then moving into midwifery.I already have taught a CB class,and am trying to get another one started,but living in S.L.C. it's hard to find willing moms-for some reason,mormon moms here tend to love the epidural and no control in their births.So hard to lisen to their birth stories...My mom is one,and she is amazed at my home births(she was at the last one,and wishes she would have dropped her Dr. and listened to her friend-who is now my midwife!)Plus all my prego friends are on their seconds or thirds and set in their ways.To add a twist,I think it will be fantastic to be able to attend and assist births comming into the mellenium when there may not be hospitals,birth centers,etc... O.K. I'm babbling...

[Bekka]

Interesting--it is my friend from Utah who commented that it's almost like birth is an ordinance of life, and natural CB respects that. She wanted HB, but either couldn't find support for it, or DH couldn't be comfortable with it. But she is definitely all for natural. ...

[momnloveit]

I'd LOVE to hear everyone's birth/adoption stories! Let's have em!

[Bekka]

So, I just got that book in the mail--Pregnancy, CB and your growing LDS family! I'm excited to look it over deeply--I like the best about it is the spiritual approach to CB. She has several scriptures that she quotes, etc.

I'm not sure I'm up to writing my birth stories now. I have written them quite extensively earlier this year for another reason, and it took quite a lot out of me emotionally. Perhaps I can in a short time.

[Quella]

I want to share something sweet my sister's husband did during her labor.
She is the one I mentioned earlier, she and I really love CB.
She labored amazingly and then 'suddenly' came to a point where she felt panicked and a little out of control. Her husband smiled and said "hooray! It is the next signpost!"
Wasn't that so thoughtful of him to be so in tune with her progress. That bit of encouragement helped her thoroughly enjoy transition. I thought this was just beautiful.

I would love to share Ava's birth story...
but I'll just do a little bit of it, so we can get on to all your stories!

After much thought and prayer (and 4 days of off/on labor), the midwife broke my water, 9am. During transition ( 1: 30pm-ish) I really went deep into myself, my own world. The birthing room was silent, I was reaching my hands up high and stretching my fingers, somehow it helped ease the intensity of the contractions...then I felt/heard a voice say quietly "baby's coming." I looked up and realized I was the one who had said it, and then I said (more forcefully) "baby is coming!!" The midwife was across the hall helping with a version (sp?) and did not think I was that close. *I* didn't think I was that close!
And--I wasn't in the bed like I thought I would be! I wasn't in the "right" position! Oh no! I had never envisioned giving birth anywhere else but the bed.
I was kneeling on the floor resting my arms on a chair. There was no way I could move, even when my mom gently said "you should get to the bed, dear." And that is the way Ava was delivered. The midwife just lifted the back of my pareo (like a hawaiian lavalava skirt-thing) and brought out Ava. The most 'modest' birth you've ever seen. :)
I just love thinking about how I felt her entire body, head, shoulders, arms, hips, legs--move down the birth canal. Absolutely magnificant.

Thanks for letting me share!

[marlygf]

well shoot, took me a while to get back here :) Anyway, I want to be a doupla because I don't want to be at the midwife end of the delivery. I want to help with the laboring not the actual delivery. Get what I'm saying? :)

Anyway, I started feeling pains and of course my husband started timing them :) I went into hard labor an hour later. we called the midwife another hour later and then headed to the hospital. checked me and I was already a 7 and 90% effaced. I jumped right into the tub (I was laboring in the tub at home too) 3 hours later he came :) I was so glad I went natural and will do it with the rest :)
sorry, I just wanted to make this quick :) oh I did the Bradley method and my husband did awesome! I am so glad I knew about that class beforehand. (another reason I want to be a doula is because my Bradley teacher was and I loved to hear her stories)

[WriterMama]

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[RasJane]

Ohh, I love birth stories! I just recently finished reading Spiritual Midwivery. Great book.
I may not share much of mine. I have before-way way back. It was a hospital birth and not super positive. I don't want to be a downer on the thread. However I am looking forward to a homebirth with #2 when the time comes.
We had a lovely trip to the coast and the weather was great. However, we are now in grandma recovery mode. How do you all survive the transition. Michael got totally spoiled by my parents, and now he is very clingy and demanding. If I hear, "I want ____ NOW!" one more time I think I will scream!!

[Bekka]

After we spend a week or even a weekend with grandparents, then daddy goes back to work, my 2 dds. have to readjust to a mommy who does not have the energy of four adoring adults! I just try to let them work it out--ride the wave and he will readjust within a few days. Not a guarantee, but just give him the time to remember (if he does) how to amuse himself for a while.

And I know people here have mixed feelings about TV, but I'm firmly of the mind that a video, strategically started at 5 pm (or whatever your crazy hour is) allows me to go to the bathroom, fix dinner, etc. without the clamour and whine. Perhaps it's not best, but we choose a "short" video (30 min) at those times. If I can sit down and watch parts, I let them choose a longer (i.e., Disney) video. Or I divide it over two days.

Just a couple of coping techniques.

[Drewsmom]

I'm with you all, I love watching births..any and every kind. It seems I learn stuff from each one. I had a great birth with ds using Hypnobirthing. I didn't think I would make it through transition when it first hit but now that I know what to expect i think it will make it so much easier for the next one. It actually wasn't as hard all the way through pushing, it was the hardest for maybe 1-2 hr.s and then I got to totally relax through the pushing at the end. Moaning really helped for a while. :) The first pushing was intense but at the end it was nice, even when ds was crowning I just wasn't ready to push him all the way out so I sat back on the bed. I thought I would deliver with the birthing bar but ended up not. I love that you delivered kneeling down Quella. I labored a lot in that position and on the birthing ball and that helped I believe to move the baby down quicker.

It's true that I learned some things that I had not even learned through my Hypno class that I just naturally did at the end. I went into my own total zone and was so glad that everyone respected that. I didn't talk from 12am until the baby was born at 5:15am. Esp at the end when I was pushing I just looked at one focal point and couldn't take my eyes off it, it somehow helped me to focus.

I have a question for you all. I asked it in midwives/doulas and didn't get a response. When we went to hear this baby's heartbeat the dr. couldnt' find it for a while until I told him where to point the doppler. Then it didn't seem very strong. He only held on it for a few seconds and then put the doppler away. Ds's heartbeat was so strong and loud it's just thrown me for a loop. Have you had that happen with any of your babies? I just worry about this one more than I did with ds.

[Stacymom]

I do want to post Abby's birth sotry, or at least a sketch, but I don't have a lot of time right now. I just wanted tot hrow some encouragement your way, Drewsmom. It's very possible that your little one may be a position that makes it harder to hear the heartbeat. He or she may be facing your back, or lower down in your pelvis, or your placenta may be up front inhibiting the sound. I don't think that the volume is what matters as much as hearing it at all, and the rate at which it's beating.

I had a scare at about 17-18 weeks in this pregnancy when I hadn't felt the baby move in a few days. I went into the mw's ofice and had her listen, and she said that it's not uncommon at all for babies to shift positions and be difficult to feel/hear up until the end of the second or beginning of the third trimester. I hope that helps!

[Laurel]

Here is Dallin's adoption story. It's really long, and I've cut out signicant parts of it--but for those of you who haven't experienced an adoptive placement, the story loses so much without all the detail, so I don't want to cut out too much. His birthmother did write his birth story for us, but it's not mine to share. I've also tried to use initials instead of names for her and her family. Even this story is quite personal and I debated on whether to share it--but I think all you moms who have given birth will appreciate his birthmom's side.

There is one funny story about his birth. People had told his birthmom (E) to take castor oil to induce labor as she was five days overdue. So, she went to the pharmacy, where the dumb young clerk had no idea what she was talking about. He told her he thought she needed to go to an auto parts store to get that! So, she went to an auto parts store and bought Castrol oil, all the while wondering why on earth they'd tell you to drink motor oil to induce labor. Luckily, someone intercepted her before she actually drank any of it!

Dallin was two days old when we got him, and his birthmom brought him to us straight from the hospital.

We had a number of stops and starts actually getting the placement underway. It was originally scheduled for 3:00 pm, but by the time all was said and done, it was 7:00 pm before our evening began (hours after we assumed it would be over). We were in one room and E's family was sequestered in another.

First, Nathan (the social worker) came in with E's sister and brothers. We spent a good 45 minutes or so talking to all of them. The conversation with them seemed to flow quite smoothly. Throughout the whole evening, despite the emotional pressure we were under, James and I felt very in control. It seemed like we always knew what to say, and there was not really any awkwardness.

After S and boys left the room, Nathan returned with E. It brings tears to my eyes to think about seeing her that night. She seemed weary. We asked her how she was feeling, and she told us that she felt really well physically, but it was obvious that she didn’t. She was tired and sore, and it showed in her walk. This was E’s night as much as ours. She was at the center of it all—all our eyes, ears, and thoughts were focused on her and her role in this event. She admitted up front that she wasn’t doing as well emotionally as she had hoped, and we could tell that too. She was quiet and reserved the first time we met her, but she was even more so tonight. I still ache for her when I think of how she was.

I can’t remember at what point Nathan left the room. I think it was fairly early into our conversation with E. The first thing she did was to give us all the paraphernalia she had received at the hospital—formula samples, toiletries, and the like. E spent a great deal of time going over with us the instructions from the hospital on how to care for the baby, telling us about watching his jaundice, when to come back for his second PKU test, and other things like that. It wasn’t really a time for talking about emotions—it was all about making sure his physical needs were going to be taken care of—but the very act of talking about it was sad. E was telling us how to take care of *her* baby.

The next portion of the evening was the one we had been most anxious about—meeting E’s mother. We had known from the start that E’s mother wanted her to keep her baby. Nathan told us after having seen her at the hospital that she was having the hardest time of any member of the family—she was a mess. She had spent the past two days begging E not to go through with her decision to place. We were told that we could expect her to interrogate us—-and she did. I don’t remember feeling antagonism from her, but over the course of our conversation, her attitude changed 180 degrees. It was an amazing turnaround. We came to understand that she was simply concerned for her daughter. She was afraid that we would take this baby and leave E out in the cold. She had already suffered the loss of her husband, and facing the loss of another family member seemed almost insurmountable.

Feelings softened as the evening progressed. At one point, she even admitted to us that she had been praying we wouldn’t show up that night! We all laughed about that. She really opened up to us. Our meeting was meant to be. I know that it gave her the trust and peace that she needed to let this adoption happen. As awkward and nervewracking as the discussions were, I felt like James and I always knew exactly what to say and were given the means to handle each scenario that presented itself. We were completely calm and never feared her at all. We saw how much she loved E. There were moments in that meeting where E’s tears flowed unchecked. We had the chance to tell B how much we loved E and how much we would love this baby. We were able to make the same promises to her that we made to E, and the spirit helped her to believe us in the things we said.

E left the room and came back to show us our baby for the first time. At this point, I think it was about 10:30 pm! I must admit that my memory of this is pretty fuzzy. It had been such a long night! We did not hold Dallin at that point. We were trying to take our lead from E and let her be the mom. This part of the visit only lasted a few moments. I did not feel a flurry of emotion upon seeing Dallin for the first time, except a sense of awe and disbelief that this was really our baby. This was a quiet part of the night. E returned to nurse him one last time. (She had nursed him 3 times throughout the evening.) We stayed with S and the boys and Nathan. By this point, we were all exhausted. We tried to keep the conversation going, but there were now periods of silence as we were running out of things to say. James and I could hardly keep our eyes open, but we had to appear strong and "together". The night dragged on and on.

Finally, S asked Nathan, "How long do these things usually take?" He answered simply, "They take as long as they take." Meaning that we would not rush E; we would give her as long as she needed to say goodbye. With all of the delays, James and I never for a moment doubted that E would go through with her decision. We never worried about her changing her mind. Baby Isaac was fussy throughout the evening, and I know that was making it harder for her to leave him. She wanted him to be comforted and happy when she last saw him. S waited a few more minutes after her question, and then disappeared. We don’t know for sure, but we think that she must have gone to get things moving. We can picture her gently telling E, "It won’t get any easier. It’s time to say goodbye." A few minutes later, E appeared with the baby in her arms.

This was the moment we’d all been waiting for. It still brings tears to my eyes to remember it. It happened so quickly, yet was so poignant. E walked slowly over to us and placed baby Dallin into my arms. The three of us stood huddled together for a few moments, James and I with our arms around E. I don’t even remember what we said to her! I’m sure we told her that we loved her and that we would love her child. The rest of the family and Nathan stood back, quietly watching. Then sweet E gathered up all her strength and whispered, "Goodbye, Baby". I know that saying those two words took all the courage she ever possessed! She turned and headed for the door on the other side of the room as fast as she could. Right before she got to the door, she began to sob and seemed about to collapse. S was next to her and supported her out of the room.

At this point, my emotions finally got the better of me. I too began to sob, and reached for E’s mom. We embraced for a long time, and I cried, "We love her!" At that point, she and the rest of E’s family left the room. I think Nathan saw them out, then came back in to see us. There were so many emotions tied up in that evening. In many ways, it was different than I had anticipated. I didn’t feel an overwhelming flood of joy upon meeting Dallin like I had pictured. It had been too long a night, and I was too filled with feelings for E. That kind of burst of elation would have seemed so inappropriate in the face of her grief. Dallin seemed like her baby, yet it seemed so right to be taking him home. It was a few days before I started to truly love Dallin as my own son, and not as E’s little boy. The focus of that evening was on E and how she was doing, not on us and our new gift. But that is completely alright with me. I have no regrets whatsoever about Dallin’s placement. It was perfect in its own way. It was an emotional, but oh-so-beautiful night, one with memories which I’ll always treasure.

Suddenly, it was almost midnight and we were parents! Nathan took a few bleary-eyed pictures of the three of us. Then we had to sit down and fill out the mounds of paperwork. We were almost too tired to know what we were signing. I remember half wishing that I could go home and get a good night's sleep and become a mother in the morning. We had an hour's drive back to our hotel, and we knew we'd be up most of the night with our newborn baby (which we were!).

[ldsapmom]

Lisa, that was beautiful. Thanks for sharing. You and your husband have been mightily blessed. My tears flowed for his birthmom's pain. I hope her life is restored to what the Lord would have it be. I had a close friend who placed her baby for adoption through LDS Social Services, and her life was blessed in so many ways because of her decision. She went on to marry a wonderful young man in the Temple.

[Laurel]

Yeah, I guess I should give the rest of the story. She went back to school a few weeks after placement, met a wonderful returned missionary a few weeks later, and is getting married in the temple this month! Every time I talk to her caseworker he tells me how fabulously she is doing. I know she still grieves, and I think she will revisit it alot after the excitement of the wedding dies down, but all in all, she is experiencing great peace and healing and couldn't be doing better considering what she's been through.

[ldsapmom]

Can I ask how far apart you all are? We live in California, and my friend chose to place her baby in Maine. I know she wanted the baby to be far away.

[Laurel]

We're in Idaho and she's in Wyoming, but placed in Colorado where she was living at the time. I don't think distance was an issue. She initially looked at families in her area but branched out when she couldn't find anyone she liked. Actually, she had originally planned to go with a family in California that she knew of through a friend, but changed her mind when she found out that they let their baby CIO. She initially wanted alot of contact with us, even future visits, which we were totally in favor of. But now she wants more emotional distance, fewer letters, etc. So we're respecting that too.

[ldsapmom]

So where was your caseworker from? Did you go to CO to get Dallin?

[ldsapmom]

I got so caught up in Lisa's story I forgot about posting mine! Jacob's is in brief form -- maybe I will add more later.

I embarked upon the journey of motherhood January, 1999. I found, after over a year of trying, that my husband and I would be having a baby the following September. I knew we were having a boy; even before we got pregnant I felt strongly impressed that our first baby would be a boy.

I really felt informed as my son’s arrival date grew closer. I love to read, and I had devoured anything I could find which related to my next phase in life. Looking back, though, I did not nearly know enough.

I went in for my last OB appointment, which had been scheduled for my due date. My doctor, whom I thought I liked and connected well with, asked me if I wanted to “get this over with.” She said he was getting too big. That was enough to scare the sense out of me! I agreed, we set up an appointment for Thursday (this was Monday), and I left her office feeling like maybe I would still go into labor on my own.

Thursday morning found us at the hospital preparing for an induction. I fully trusted the medical staff and my doctor, although I saw her only three times that day: She came in once to break my water, once to check me and say, “She’s not ready yet, why did you call me?”, and once to pull my baby out via vacuum, leaving me with a nasty episiotomy and a 4th degree tear. I labored all day and pushed for three hours – all with no pain medication. At my six-week appointment, where I had to have some random piece of scar tissue burned off with silver nitrate, my OB said, “Well, the miracle of birth is epidurals.” I, as kindly as I could, reminded her I did not get an epidural, to which she replied, “Oh, yeah, I forgot.” That was when I discovered we had not connected at all.

Jacob was a strapping nine pound, eight ounce baby boy, perfectly healthy. We did have some trouble getting him to nurse, but he enjoyed being at my breast. 24 hours after his birth he started vomiting stomach bile. He was immediately admitted to the ICN, where they began a slew of tests. Their immediate concern was a bowel obstruction, in which case they were talking about maybe sending him to Oakland Children’s Hospital or UCSF (we lived in Modesto, California at the time). My older sister was at the hospital visiting me at the time. She was due with her first baby the following January. We sat and cried together, not knowing what to expect.

The doctors could not figure out exactly what happened. They treated Jacob to a seven-day course of IV antibiotics, and after about a day and a half he began to perk up. They ruled it as a septic infection, which I am almost sure happened because of the way in which his birth went – my water was broken eight hours before he was born, and nurses were checking me internally all the time.

Jacob stayed in the hospital for nine days, and I was discharged on day two. I traveled back and forth to the hospital every three hours, at least. Most of the time I needed a nurse’s help – we really took a long time to get the hang of nursing. I was also pumping so the nurses would feed him in the middle of the night. I was a complete basket case, running back and forth, hopped up on Vicadin, trying to nurse my own 4th degree tear while feeling such a sense of loss over the outcome of my birth and my baby’s perilous state of health.

He was allowed to come home September 24th. Nursing still was hard, but not as hard as adjusting from his perfectly-kept three hour hospital schedule to his erratic, always-wanting-to-nurse, welcome-to-my-chaos routine. When he would fall asleep, I would lay him in his crib, crawl into bed, and keep myself up wondering if I would sleep before he woke shrieking my name.

After this routine for a day or two, driven by craziness and desperation, I finally decided, how hard was it to just bring him to bed? Ahh, the beginning of a new chapter!

Jacob was 17 months old when we learned we were expecting again. We moved to Chico, three hours north of Modesto, when I was seven months pregnant. I had been seeing a midwife in Modesto, and again, I thought we connected. It was not until I decided to switch to Chico Nurse Midwives that I knew I cared very little for my original midwife, and I felt she for me.

I decided to try tandem nursing – one of my Modesto LLL Leaders had, and my new LLL Leader in Chico, Debbie, had. I knew it would not be easy, but I could not stop nursing Jacob simply because I wanted to – I felt strongly it needed to be a joint decision. When people (family!) would question this, I would gently remind them I did not tell Jacob when to crawl, walk, talk, or meet any of his other milestones – I did not feel comfortable choosing for him when he needed to stop nursing. Luckily they were all far enough away that we were not blessed with their opinions too often! My family was very okay with it, but there was interesting resistance from my husband’s side. (I say interesting because my mother-in-law was not able to nurse her children with much success, although her own mother had 13 children, was a local midwife in Mexico where she lived, and breastfed her babies. I even came across my grandmother-in-law’s journal wherein she tells of having her husband bring her a puppy to nurse because she was so engorged with one of her babies. She also tells of how she wet-nursed for a lady in her community who was ill. I know my mother-in-law, had she stayed near her mother when she had her own children, would have had better luck at being able to nurse simply because of the support. I feel a lot of my mother-in-law’s resistance and disdain is because she, doing the best she could with the little support she had, did things a lot differently than I.)

I knew my midwives would not give me the option for induction unless there really was a problem. I remember going in for an appointment the week before I was due. I told the midwife I was meeting with if I went over my date, I was going to stop eating. I was afraid I was due to deliver up another giant-sized monster baby. I will never forget the wisdom she shared with me: She said, “His head is not getting any bigger – he will just be putting fat on his arms and legs – chunking up.” That made such sense to me and brought unknown amounts of peace to my heart!

Waiting was so hard! I cried so many days, and my husband would say, "Why don't you tell them to induce you?" To which I would reply, half crying, half yelling, "I don't want to be induced!" Poor Brad, he just couldn't understand.

My little sister and her four month old baby flew from Idaho to be there for Jacob when I went into labor. Well, they got to sit around for a week with nothing to do! The weekend came and my mom wanted my sister and her baby to come to Modesto to visit -- she was chomping at the bit to see her grandson! At this point I was 5 days overdue. I said, "No way -- if you want to see them, you come here!" My mom, little brother, and little sister came up that Friday night. This was the weekend before Thanksgiving -- my sister and her husband had been planning on coming down for Thanksgiving so my sister just came a week earlier. That same Friday night her husband got to our house as well.

We were all packed in our two bedroom apartment: My husband and son; my sister, her husband, and their baby; and my mom, brother, and sister; and me! That next morning (Saturday) I awoke and went to pee, like usual! When I wiped I noticed there was a little blood! I came out and announced it to the WHOLE family! I was sure that was a good sign. But then nothing else was happening...

I spent the morning resting and puttering around the house. Everyone minus my husband and brother had gone to the mall (they even took Jacob for me!). My husband and brother stayed to play computer games;). Around 4:00 I decided I needed to walk around to try and help things along. I called my mom and we all met up at the mall.

We stayed for a few more hours, then headed home for dinner and bed. Still nothing was happening! I got disappointed after dinner and laid down for another rest. At about 10:00 I called a good friend back in Modesto who is a lay-midwife (she is LDS and delivered my older sister's 2 babies). I told her about the bloody show, which had continued, but told her nothing else was happening. She go all excited and said, "If you were my client, I would go right to bed, expecting you to call in the middle of the night." She got me feeling better, hopeful.

At around 11:00 I got up, annoyed by so many people in my house! I started cleaning the kitchen while all around me people were going to sleep. At 11:30 I noticed I was having a contraction which felt different than my braxton hicks. I started timing them and they came every 5 minutes. After about an hour and 20 minutes, I decided to wake Brad up for a trip to the hospital.

I was induced with Jacob, so I still was not sure we should be going yet, or if this was it. Even on the way to the hospital I was unsure if we should have been going. We got here and checked in. The nurse checked me and I was at a 3 (which was just where I had been 2 weeks before at a midwife visit). She suggested we walk around for 45 minutes and then be checked again. When checked again I was at a 5. She called the midwife!

Then I went to the Jacuzzi tub to labor. I was in there but I could not sit like I normally would in a tub, the way one would sit in a tub on their bottom. I had to lay on my side. I did question why, I just remembered from the Sears' Birth Book if something is not comfortable it is your body's way of telling you to try a different position. I labored in there for a half an hour and then they checked the baby's heart rate for a few minutes. Then I went for another half hour, but realized I was in whopping pain again. The water initially took a huge edge off of my contractions, but suddenly I was hurting again. Sitting there, I realized I could feel gushing of water, like my water broke.

My mom got there about then and helped me out of the tub. I realized I was going to be in pain in or out of the water, so I felt I wanted to be in bed at that point.

I told myself maybe I would be at a 7 after the tub -- don't expect too much. My nurse checked me and I was at 9.5. She started to panic a bit and bring trays and equipmnet in, all the while telling me if I needed to push she needed to be in the room and telling me she had to call my midwife again. She could have slowed down a bit -- we weren't in a hurry.

My midwife got there and I was still at a 9.5. I was really trying to deal with this pain. My midwife suggested low, gutteral moaning, which helped my pain. She was a strong support to me -- I was glad she was there.

After about 45 minutes, she asked if I wanted to try to push. I told her I did. I did not feel like I wanted to push, but I was tired of laying there in pain. I remembered with Jacob once I started to push things felt great -- it is nice to be able to do something at that point.

I tried to push but it hurt! I had no idea why, I was really confused. Each push I spent the first one trying to remember how to push! I was so thrown off by that. Finally my midwife would put her fingers next to the cervix and that would help me a bit, but pushing was still painful -- the whole time.

Also, I could not be in any position where I was sitting on my bottom -- it hurt too bad in my abdoman to do that. I spent most of my time on all fours or on one of my sides is a modified squat. I had to deal with this on my own. I was in my head with U2's song, "STuck in a Moment" going through my head (and wasn't it true!). I was also praying mightily for strength and relief. I admitted to HF He was the only one who could help me and I needed help! I prayed over and over -- it was the only thing I could do.

AFter about 65 minutes of pushing they thought I was going to need something extra. He just was not moving down as they would have liked. They paged the doctor on call and set me up with an IV (the only invasive procedure to this point). My nurse yelled at another nurse because she needed help getting an IV in me while I was in misery! There was blood all over my arm from them trying to stick me -- I did not care.

After 90 minutes, I was able to push him out. Just before he emerged Karen (my midwife) realized he was posterior. He also had the cord wrapped around his neck. But he was fine! She asked if my other son had been posterior and I told her he wasn't.

I had my first contraction at 11:30 pm; got to the hospital just after 1 am, and he was born at 7:30 am. Not a bad length of time, in my estimation!

I had a lot more control during Isaac's birth I had read Birting From Within, and it really helped me deal with the drama in my head. Isaac was a healthy nine pounds, nine ounces, posterior-faced baby boy. Luckily for me, he took right to nursing – he was a pro! I felt I deserved that after the struggles Jacob and I had dealt with.

[Mollie]

Lisa, your story made me cry. wow. that is really a testiment to how strong mothers are, birthmother's and adoptive mothers. how wonderful that she is doing well in her life now!!!! I have a SIL who gave up a baby through LDS services, and I think it was a positive experience all in all. Although, she thought for years that she had had a girl rather than a boy! Now, 20 some-odd years later, they have reconnected, which is neat.

I lost a baby before we had Matthew, in Nov of '96. That was a really really sad time in our lives, and to be honest I kind of block it out quite a bit. But then, we got pregnant with Matthew, and I had a blissful, wonderful pregnancy. We were so excited! I was so excited in fact, I proceeded to pack on about 70 pounds! :eek Luckily, nursing took off all of it, although it took about a year and a half. :eek When I was 37.5 weeks, my OB said "you know what? this baby is breech!". I knew that though, I had felt him turn (reallllllly uncomfortable) about 2 nights before. I tried all the tricks to get him to turn, and tried to have an external version, but no luck. the last US showed that he was a footling breech, and they recommended a c-section. it was a good thing, in my case, b/c the cord was wrapped around the foot that was down @ the cervix 11 times, very tightly. had they known that (I kind of feel they should have been able to tell), they would not have tried the external version. oh well, everything turned out OK, so that is what I am focusing on.

Went to the hospital, had the epidural (ouch), and proceeded on with the c-section. and it really did feel like being unzipped, just like they said. and incredible pressure when they were trying to get him out, really uncomfortable. but out popped this gorgeous, 9 pound 7 oz chubby little boy, so sweet! :love and up started the questions, what do you mean he is rooming in? what do you mean he is not staying in his nursery? what do you mean you have not used the playpen yet? hahahaha.

fast forward to 2001, 36 weeks with Macie. I had a hard time with this pregnancy, gestational diabetes, and I had to go in 2x/week for ultrasounds, because of decreased bloodflow through the umbilical cord. they kept measuring her head, and if it didn't continue to grow, they would take her that day, so I always had to bring my stuff. one horrifying day at about 35 weeks, could not find the heartbeat, rushed over to the hospital for the 3d ultrasound, and found it. scary. anyway, I had a repeat c-section b/c they were afraid with the cord problem that it would be too much stress, plus my diabetes was out of control & blood pressure was jetting up. so had another section, no problems except that I had to have the epidural twice (ouch!). they kept pinching my stomach to make sure I was numb, and I was saying "excuse me, I can FEEL that! you are not starting yet!" I think they thought I didn't know what I was talking about.

Anyway, Macie came out beet red and screaming, which was music to my ears b/c they had given us all kinds of dire predictions due to all my problems. and she nursed like a champ, from the very first day!

So, that is our story! a high level of medical intervention in both cases, but necessary due to complications. so many people feel like "failures" b/c they didn't have the perfect birth, but I am so thankful for my imperfect births b/c the results were wonderful!:D

[Stacymom]

Oh, I love these stories! The further and further I get in my pregnancy, the more I just devour birth stories. I'm so determined to have a natural birth, and Stacie, hearing stories like yours gives me so much confidence!

Abby's birth was highly medicalized, and I chose it because I didn't know any other way- I thought those who chose natural childbirth were nuts! But it is in a large part because of her birth experience that I am seeking natural CB for this baby. Anyway... I was seeing an OB through the whole pregnancy and was due on the 4th of Oct. The summer had been really hot, and I had been working full time up until the middle of Sept when I dropped back to part time. My OB told me I needed to quit work by the 1st of Oct, so I did, expecting that I would have a baby, anytime. I dreamed of having her here for conference weekend, and every day that went by was longer and longer as I waited and nothing happened. I was so bored and so anxious! The OB visit at 41 weeks was the worst- we went expecting that he would send us to be induced. I didn't know of anyone who had gone this long without being induced, and I was so uncomfortable with everything. The OB told me that I wasn't dialating, and that he wouldn't do an induction- "I don't do obstetrical procedures for non-obstetrical reasons." :rolleyes: He told me that if I went another week that he would induce me, but then proceeded to tell me that I wouldn't need to be induced- that he had had four or five women in my position the week previously, and he delivered them all that week. Well, the week came and went, and dh and I ended up at the hospital the next week. They had us report to the hospital at 10:00 at night, which was the first stupid thing. We didn't sleep at all that day because we were too excited, so we were at the hospital realizing how tired we were. They started the IV at 11:00 that night, but kept telling me that they couldn't start the pitocin because they kept having women come in in active labor and they had to be able to monitor me continuously. We were watching TV and trying to sleep off and on. Finally at about three o'clock in the morning, I sent my dh out to see what was going on. I think my direct quote was "If they're not going to do this now, I'm taking this IV out myself and going home." When he went out there, all the nurses look at each other and said "Didn't you start the girl in five?" :rolleyes: Anyway, they started the pit drip, and doubled it every half an hour. A resident came in and tried to break my water (ouch! He really didn't know what he was doing!) and it didn't work, so they let me labor for awhile on my own. I started feeling some mild cramping, but within a couple of hours, I was in major pain. I called the nurse and she called the anesthesiologist to start the epidural. I was almost hyperventilating during the contractions- I couldn't breathe and they were worried I was going to pass out. I think that there were two nurses there trying to hold me still so they could put in the epidural. The Dr left, and I was waiting for the epi to take effect, but nothing happened, and the contractions were still on top of each other. They were lasting about 90 seconds and were only about 30 seconds apart, and I was completely desparate because the epi wasn't working and I couldn't stay on top of the pain. (I went in prepared to get an epi, so I hadn't ptepared for any natural pain relief.) My poor DH was exhausted- he was trying to support me, but he was so tired that he wasn't really awake during any of this. :angry About this time, (about 7:30 am) my ob cam to break my water. I was in so much pain and told him, and he said "well, this is why I'm against inductions." He was able to break my water effortlessly, and the nurses kept calling the anethesiologist. I think I ended up with five or six doses of epidural before it started to take effect, and by that time I was so grateful. We were finally both able to sleep, except for the nurse coming in to wake me up to readjust the fetal monitors and the stupid blood pressure cuff going on and off. The nurse checked me around two that afternoon and told me I was complete, and that they were going to call my Dr. Then they all got called into and emergency c-section and told me to just relax and let my body do a little bit more of the work. I started pushing a little while later, and it was hard work! I remember having this unbelievable rush of feeling that I was actually going to have this baby in my arms soon. The Dr got there and watched one push before he started putting on his scrubs and had the nurses break the bed down. I pushed three or four times with him there, through one contraction. They brought in a mirror so that I could see and that gave me so much energy. I still ended up with an episiotomy (so much for not doing obstetrical things for non-obstetrical reasons! :angry This is the thing I still have the hardest time dealing with- I only pushed for about twenty minutes total and she was out, and it took me weeks and weeks to heal from the cut. And, he didn't ask me or my dh before he did it, he just cut.) She came out squirming and they put her on my chest, and we just stared at each other. It was such an unbelievable moment- I couldn't believe that this little person had just come out of my body. She was 8 lbs and 1 oz, and healthy for the most part. She had some amniotic fluid in her lungs that had to be suctioned out the middle of that night, and we struggle with nursing for about five months, but that's an entirely different post. Thanks for letting me share! I look forward to posting my next birth story, which will hopefully be filled with a lot loss interventions!

[momnloveit]

MMMM, I just eat this stuff up!

I am the 5th of 5 girls. I have 2 little brothers. Well, all 5 of us girls got married within 5 years. I absolutely trusted my oldest sister. She is the kind of person that is so confident in the way she does things. She had a 10-pounder for her first baby. She LOVED her epidural. She was induced for all of her others because her oldest was so big, but she had like 3 hour labors or something. They'd bring her in, give her the pit and the epi at the same time. I thought it was ideal! So that's where I was coming from on my first. I was really against natural childbirth. I actually chose my ob because he induced my sister a week early, and that's what I wanted!!! He was so full of himself, and just after Nathan was born, he lost all hospital privelages--scary! So, at about 37weeks, I told him he could induce me any time. He said he wouldn't because it was dangerous. That was the first time I had ever heard that induction had risks. At my 39 week checkup, he did an exam and said, "lets just see if we can get things moving". I had no idea that he had stripped my membranes until I got to the hospital and the nurses told me. That night, I was at my sister's house while our dh's were playing basket ball. She had a 3mo girl. Suddenly, I started having contractions 5 min apart. I did all the things to rule out false labor, but they kept coming. I went up to the hospital about midnight, after 3 hours of contractions. The nurses were nice and let me stay, even though my dr told them to send me home. It took me 12 hours of very painful contrations to get to a 2. I was so discouraged because I wanted an epidural so bad, and I was a long way from getting it. I got in the tub a couple of times and it really helped the pain. The next time I got checked, I was at a 5. Dr. broke my water and they called the epi lady. :) She had me sit in the most akward position, and I was having these intense urges. She kept telling me to hold still. She stuck me five times before "getting it right". It took 45 minutes. It was awful. Every time she'd stick that awful thing in, my left leg would curl up with a shock. Well, I finally lay back on the bed, they checked me, and I was complete and pushing. Those urges were because all that time, I was already dilated. Nathan came out after only 20 minutes. I had no idea that you didn't have to have an episiotomy, so of course I did. His head was 15 inches, anyway. When he came out, I saw a big chubby hand, but that was all. The doctor whisked him over to the isolette, without even showing me the face. Then the epidural kicked in. I was so shaky from being up all night, etc, that I didn't even want to hold him very much. The next morning I woke up with a debilitating headache from the epidural. They told me I could get a blood patch where they put blood back through the epidural space and it forms a clot over the holes. They said I'd have relief instantly or it would make my pain worse. I was not about to let anything into my spine, so I endured a week of being bedridden. The only thing that relieved it was caffiene through IV and eating. I gained all my weight back from eating every two hours. Then the dr. sewed me up too tight, so he had to re-do my episiotomy. I nursed Nathan for 15 months. When he was 12mos, I got preg. with Brandon. I was never going to have an epidural again. I did get induced 8 days early because It was spring break and the only chance dh had to be there. They broke my water, let it go for awhile, gave me a little pit, and things got moving. It was nice because I got a full night's sleep, got to the hospital at 7:30, and had Brandon at 2:30 after 5 hours of labor. I asked for Nubane, and was glad I had it. After delivering the head, the Dr let dh and I deliver the rest of the body, and I pulled the chubby little fellow onto me. I didn't want to let him go. It was the most amazing thing I had ever experienced. He has this amazingly deep voice, and he was 9lbs, 3oz. He looked like a little bulldog!
I had this amazing adrenaline rush after I had him. I felt like the queen of the world because I'd done it without an epidural.
With Ruby, I went to a midwife, and devoured the library of literature she had on natural childbirth. I was really excited to go into labor on my own. It was really hard to wait it out, though. The night before her due date, I had a few contractions. Then, at 11:00, I knew I had my first real contraction. By 12, they were 2 minutes apart. When I got to the hospital, I was at 3-4. The nurses didn't believe I was really in labor. I had my music (soundtrack from sense and sensibility and from cumorah's hill) keeping me going. I was annoyed that I had to get an IV, but it was for strep b antibiotics. Dh was wonderful, we were so in sync that he just naturally stroked me and did comforting things. I spent most of labor on the bed on my knees, hunched over a pile of pillows. Sometimes, I was even in the "stink-bug" position! I remember the nurse asked me from 1-10 what my pain level was, and I told her 7. She thought I was a wimp, but I was really at a 6! I had only been there for a little over an hour. Then I got in the tub, and it was awesome. I had a perma-grin! I assumed the same position I'd had on the bed. On my knees, hunched over the edge. It was so awesome to just do my thing and tell myself that my body was doing what it needed, and it was okay to feel pain. When my midwife could tell I was ready to push, I sat back in the tub. It was a mistake, and I was a little frightened at the intense pain pushing gave me. I screamed a little, but it felt good. Then she reminded me that I could push gently, and a couple pushes later, out came my little water baby. What a blessed moment! DH and I still talk about her birth and our wonderful baby moon. It always brings tears to my eyes to see a baby born or hear the story. I love it. sorry so long! Gotta go!

[Drewsmom]

Those are awesome stories. Births are such spiritual events. I forgot to add that the thing that got me through my contractions in the end were little prayers that I said through each one. And when ds was coming out I kept looking at the beginning of that head and I totally forgot that their heads collapse to get through the canal so I really wondered how in the world that baby was going to make it through me and that's why I pushed for so long. But when a nurse said, "Oh I see a cheek!" when his head was coming out I looked and I remember instantly just falling in love with him and I wanted to see the rest of him and that's what got me to push enough to get him out. Weird that I only saw a tiny part of his head and I knew he was beautiful. I totally agree, there's an adrenaline rush after you have the baby. For me it wasn't right after but when we got to hold him an a few hours later of recovering I couldn't go to sleep. We hadn't slept that whole night since ds came at 5:15am but I couldn't go to sleep until 10pm that night. Then ds got colicky and screamed until 5am when dh came back (dumb I know, I sent dh home to get a good nights rest in our own bed..he just looked so tired, a REALLY dumb idea). Whew, I was tired and am just now recovering sleep wise :ha ha.

Lisa, I'm so glad you posted your story. It was absolutely beautiful and what amazing people you are. You let her have her moment...gotta run ds just got sick. sorry.

[diegosmommy]

First of all, thank you Lisa for sharing such a great personal experience. It just renews my faith and confidence in adoption. My heart just broke for the mother, and for you to be so brave to allow her the time she needed. What a great thing!

Second, I also love birth! I even enjoy watching Baby Story on TLC even though I would prefer they were all natural births, wouldn't that be great education! I could talk about birth experiences forever. I just love the wonderful emotions that come with witnessing new life.

I have had three babies. I've known for as long as I can remember that I wanted to have my babies natural. My mother never had any pain medication and I knew I could do it too. Even though my other sisters who have given birth haven't followed her example. I have had three different CNM's deliver my babies we have moved every year or so for the last four years. With my first I wanted a CNM for the hospital advantages of safety. We were in the city close to numerous hospitals, and I sure regret not looking for a midwife that did HB. After I had my first I heard about a midwife that was LDS that did HB. I wish I had known. Not that I have had bad experiences in the hospital, all my births have been fabulous. It would just be such a great experience!
My birth #1 was due on Dec. 15th. I just said as long as I could be home for Christmas I would be happy. Well, of course she was 10 days late. My CNM stripped my membranes on Christmas Eve and told us to have sex and take Castor Oil, 2 tbs. in OJ and w/ice. We did and my contractions started about 3 hours after the castor oil. I had an annoying BIL in my small apartment since I didn't want to travel for Christmas they all came to my apartment.:) So I only labored at home for 4 hours and then went to the hospital at 9:30pm, I was only dilated to a 4. But they kept me and we walked the halls all night. My mother and dh took shifts in staying up with me walking and holding my hands through labor. I had taken Bradley classes and I did pretty good at relaxing through the contractions. My baby was born at 11am Christmas morning. It was so hard for me to figure out pushing, I don't think my body was ready yet, but my CNM said that I could push so I tried. I din't push that long though maybe 30 min. The main problem I had was I pushed too fast in the end and I had a 2nd degree tear. I was completely against episiotomies at all costs. Although my dd was 10lbs 2oz with a 15.5 inch head. Everything was fabulous though. She nursed great. I got pregnant with my second when she was 6 months old. I tandum nursed until she was about 18 months. Then she began sucking her thumb. She wasn't ready to wean.

My #2 birth we had a CNM, I loved her more than the first she was just so down to earth and real. We were an hours drive to the hospital. I was going late again and at 6 days late we decided to try inducing with prostiglandin gel. I was about 3 dilated. After two doses I had started regular labor but not really bad at all. I just walked around again. But not as much this time. It wore me out with my 1st. My contractions really didn't get too bad until after about eight hours of labor my CNM broke my water which we agreed to. Then my contractions came fast and hard. This time I knew when it was time to push, I couldn't have stopped it if I wanted too. I was very vocal with this labor and I'm sure the nurses outside though I was crazy. I had a boy that was 9lbs. even. I had two small stitches that I never even noticed. He did have some kind of blood sugar problem. So they did practically force me to give him formula, but they had a type of bottle feeder that would allow him to suckle at my breast with a little tube to his mouth. It finally did get his blood sugar at the right levels and he never touched formula again. A great nurser.

We then got pregnant with #3 when #2 was about 15 months. They are exactly two years and 5 days apart. Both boys. #3 is now one year old. What a sweetie he is. Again we had moved so found another CNM. This time she was LDS. We were about 30 minutes from the hospital. I liked her okay, really nice and actually did the best coaching during pushing that I've had. But my 2nd CNM was my favorite so far. I was late again, it is my fate. ( my mother was 3 weeks late with all of hers but one, something in our genes) I was 8 days and she said she'd let me go until the next monday if I wanted. But that was april 1st and having the choice I decided not to do that, and Easter was on Sunday, which I prefered to be home with my 3 and 2 year old toddlers. (I did have to have an IV with this birth w/antibiotics for strep B. I wish there was another way. Update me if you know of any other.) So we did the prostiglandin gel again. This time it took about 3 doses. I was dilated about a 3 and very soft, I took evening primrose to soften me up. but by the 3rd dose the contractions started hard and fast. They had a whirlpool, but didn't allow birthing in it. So I labored there for about 30 minutes until my contractions were too painful. I like to walk and move through my contractions when possible. Well I finally got fed up with the pain and told my CNM that I was ready to get the baby out. So we got in the bed and pushed him out. He was born two hours after the contractions started. She coached my so well with my pushing, slow and steady, I didn't have any tears or stitches!! It was so fabulous. He was .... 10lbs 12oz. Huge. He was so big and long he didn't look fat like my first 10 pounder. Oh but what a wonderful feeling birth is. I was awake crying that night with joy! A great nurser once again. A great sleeper much more content and easier to manage than my first two. But he is very clingy to mom and dad, until we're out of sight, he seems to settle down, or so everyone tells me.

I just love natural birth, it is hard for me to listen to others commiserate about pain and epidurals and how they could never do it. I really think the majority of women could have natural birth, but you really have to have the right mind set and totally the desire. I always say that I choose this way for my babies. They don't have the drugs in their systems when they come into this world, I think it makes a world of difference.

Well, sorry for the length, I hope it didn't put you all to sleep.:zzz I love hearing all your stories! Thanks for this great idea!

Tammy

[ldsapmom]

Okay, I am back. I hope I don't offend, but I have had this nagging feeling like I need to post this, maybe for other moms out there? I don't know. This is just my opinion. I fully appreciate and recognize you all know your bodies better than I ever could. I know you all know your babies better than I ever could. I am just stating what I feel applies to me. Why I am doing this, I really don't know except that it won't leave me alone. I wrote this on another board and now feel compelled to share it here. Lead here by my own personal experiences, I hope you will receive this in the spirit in which it was written.

I agreed when my OB/GYN suggested I be induced with my first. I never even gave it a second thought. Instead of trusting my HF and being patient and having faith (all of which never even