Characteristics of Gifted Children -- Real Life Experiences [Archive]

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lckrause

07-03-2006, 11:08 AM

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ChristaN

07-03-2006, 12:02 PM

Hi, Lisa :).

I have always liked the Columbus Group's definition of gifted:

"Giftedness is asynchronous development in which advanced cognitive abilities and heightened intensity combine to create inner experiences and awareness that are qualitatively different from the norm. This asynchrony increases with higher intellectual capacity. The uniqueness of the gifted renders them particularly vulnerable and requires modifications in parenting, teaching and counseling in order for them to develop optimally."

That truly encompasses the major reasons that I feel my dd has special needs. Her reading and writing were tested at middle to highschool level at age 7, but she still has training wheels on her bicycle. She is so intense and passionate that she is overwhelmed by her feelings. She's tended toward depression when her surroundings don't take into account her different needs. The best example of this was her 1st grade teacher who could not grasp the fact that dd could do so much, but her speed wasn't on par with her ability. The teacher just beat her down so much over her very nature (asynchronousity) that dd was telling me she wished she was dead or had never been born. That is so scary to hear from a 6 year old. I want dd to understand that she is normal -- normal for what she is: a child whose brain is wired quite differently.

I agree that the baby milestones never made sense. The professor in grad school who told me that young children have short attention spans completely confused me. Dd was building towers and focusing her attention on working on getting caps on and off of ballpoint pens for 20 or 30 minutes as an infant. She screamed non-stop and never slept. The tantrums as a toddler were so intense that I wanted to give her away sometimes.

She's a great almost 8 y/o now, but she is still very different and, I believe, always will be. I sometimes envy parents who can "parent by proxy," as I put it. I have to be "on" all of the time -- explaining why I am asking her to do something, having heart to heart discussions about why death won't make all of the angst and feelings of being abnormal go away, helping her control her emotions and express them in acceptable ways...

I know that all AP mamas try to be there to meet their children's needs, so I am not implying that I alone devote a bunch of time to my dd. I am trying to explain why dd just needs more than your avg child, though.

lckrause

07-03-2006, 12:12 PM

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darien

07-03-2006, 02:55 PM

You're a brave woman to start this thread.

Gifted is:

When your 18m old tries to wrestle _The Baby Book_ away from you, saying "I want to see that big book with pictures of babies!"

When your 20m old can identify animals-- origami animals that he's never seen before.

When your 2.5 year old says "The world is a giant arboretum!"

When your 4 y.o. practices counting at preschool, and is the banker while playing Monopoly at home.

When your 6 year old, (who refused to learn to read until his classmates did), is tested at a 6th grade reading and comprehension level.

When your 8 y.o. cries because his fingers aren't deft enough for the circuit board he's wiring.

When you worry that nobody will like you anymore after you post this!

Serenity

07-03-2006, 04:04 PM

i was reading this thread because i was wondering what is considered gifted. these descriptions sound like my ds who i have been told has Asperger's syndrome. now i'm wondering, is he gifted, asperger's, or both? its all so confusing to me.

anyway, carry on, i love to hear about all these quirky kids who will grow up to be the movers and shakers in our world!

ChristaN

07-03-2006, 04:33 PM

Serenity, Children with aspergers often are very intelligent and share many characteristics with gifted children; in fact, they can be "twice exceptional" -- that is exceptional in two ways (their intellect as well as a "disability" or other exceptionality).

I'd strongly recommend reading the book The Misdiagnosis and Dual Diagnosis of Gifted Children and Adults: Adhd, Bipolar, Ocd, Asperger's, Depression, And Other Disorders (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0910707642/102-7889501-5233759?v=glance&n=283155).

i love to hear about all these quirky kids who will grow up to be the movers and shakers in our world!
eta: I was just noticing this in your response as well. Gifted children often don't grow up to be high achievers. They have higher suicide rates, higher highschool drop out rates... I worry about my dd b/c she is more at risk. I also worry b/c she is a lot like I was as a child and I had some very difficult teen years.

One of the speakers at a Mensa conference I am planning to attend has as her topic, "Why Do So Many Smart People Not Fulfill Their Promise?" The session description says:

"According to Dr. Ruf, someone suggested that she speak on the topic of why so many smart people turn out to be losers. That seems unkind, but it is true that many highly intelligent people don't live up to their potential. Is it personal qualities or life experiences that seem to make the difference? Dr. Ruf will discuss her research into what makes gifted children turn into the different kinds of gifted adults that they do."

I, unfortunately, won't be at the conference that day, but I believe that all of the parents here on MDC are trying to do what is best for their kiddos such that they do turn out to be healthy, whole adults who don't look back with regret and wish that they had been together enough when they were younger for their lives to have turned out differently.

mamaverdi

07-03-2006, 04:37 PM

There were definitely kids with aspbergers who were gifted in the GT school my son was in.

Gifted is: knowing other languages that you've only heard once or maybe once described for you.

Gifted is: pointing to a letter in Hebrew that you've only seen once and saying: that's a ...

Gifted is your 18 month old pulling your 30 year old friend into his room: "you have to see my vehicles."

Gifted is refusing to admit you can read, but saying any word your mom spells over the phone...like b - a - s - t - a - r - d.

Gifted is trying to talk perfect strangers out of eating meat at the ripe old age of 2 ... even though everyone you know eats meat...because you, as a 2 year old, just see it is wrong and unjust.

Gifted is posting this and knowing that these are the most normal examples you can come up with of your gifted kid.

mv

USAmma

07-03-2006, 05:39 PM

That's great!!

lckrause

07-03-2006, 06:58 PM

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1growingsprout

07-03-2006, 07:12 PM

gifted is...
when your 5 yr old sits down and reads a repair manual for a 1978 chevy from the library.. cuz MOM I GOTTA KNOW HOW TO MAKE A CAR... yes we are working on a exact replica from lego's... while putting bubble gum up his nose....:)

gifted is that photographic memory and while he did see the movie cars 2x.. he is able to insert the proper character lines while the soundtrack is playing..

gifted is figuring out how much change is due back from a purchase before the computer or the sales girl.

gifted is wanting to read curious george but being able to read harry potter at age 3...

oh yes and gifted is intesne, subborn, great, rewarding and makes for each day being very unique

eilonwy

07-03-2006, 08:20 PM

Gifted is--

The two month old who asks to nurse clearly enough that everyone turns around and stares.

The six month old who picks up a cup and drinks from it the very first time she's offered, as though she was remembering rather than learning.

When your two year old announces to perfect strangers that it's very unfair that boys don't have a uterus so they can't get a period or have a baby growing inside of them. (He overheard a conversation while he was very busy crashing Barbie's new VW into walls.)

A three year old who says, quite seriously, that she can't sing Twinkle,Twinkle, because you're obviously playing a different song with the same sound (it was in a different key from the one in which she learned it).

When a four year old who only recently started speaking at all recites the names of 30 bones in her body, as well as her body parts.

A five year old who can tell you the names of all of the presidents of the US, their terms of office, and who was president when she and her cousins were born.

The six year old who bursts into tears when the new librarian tries to redirect him away from Charles Dickens because "She's ruined my schedule!"

The seven year old who looks her doctor dead in the eye and explains that she's not reading Black Beauty because she likes horses, but because "It's a classic work of children's literature, and every child should read it."

The eight year old who patiently explains that the purpose of school is for parents to have time to themselves during the day, that it has nothing to do with learning.

The nine year old who thinks that panda bears and space aliens are both amazing, and builds panda habitats in various configurations "so that they could live on other planets, and have alien panda babies."

The ten year old who resists getting on the school bus, but spends 5 hours after school hiding out in the library reading law books.

The eleven year old who is failing science class, but reading college microbiology textbooks at home on the weekends.

The twelve year old who appears to have ADHD at school, but goes home and spends hours at a time taking apart the vacuum cleaner and putting it back together.

The thirteen year old who has memorized a child development textbook, so when he sees the psychologist he is able to reassure her quickly and easily that there is absolutely nothing wrong.

The fourteen year old who deliberately earns in school suspensions so that she can work on logic problems and read books instead of wasting her time in class.

Gifted is not (necessarily)--

The child whose mother is standing behind him saying, "Just do it, you did it yesterday..."

The child with the largest collection of flash cards.

The child who gets the highest grades in school.

The child who has the most "extracurricular" activities.

The child with the biggest trophy shelf.

The child with the most active parents.

The child with the wealthiest parents.

catgirl

07-03-2006, 08:34 PM

Gifted is--

A three year old who says, quite seriously, that she can't sing Twinkle,Twinkle, because you're obviously playing a different song with the same sound (it was in a different key from the one in which she learned it).

:lol

In my house, this developed from the two year old saying, "No, that's the wrong song!" into the four year old asking aggrievedly why his cheapo computer game was playing the theme from Beethoven's 5th in C# minor instead of C minor.

Oh, and who was also the three year old beginning to read at the same time as he began (finally) toilet training, and was happy to tell everyone he met the manufacturer of every toilet and sink in town, because after all the names were in nice large print and he had a good view of them while peeing. This included telling the supermarket checkout lady with great excitement, "Your toliet is an American Standard, just like at Ellen's house!"

mamaverdi

07-03-2006, 11:14 PM

"Your toliet is an American Standard, just like at Ellen's house!"

:lol :lol :lol

mv

loraxc

07-04-2006, 09:12 AM

CarolynnMarilynn

07-04-2006, 09:53 AM

Gifted is also:

When you are coming home from Christmas shopping and your small child wants to see what is bought, and when you tell her that every child has to wait until Christmas morning to open presents, your 7-year old chimes in and says, "But only if they celebrate Christmas, and not Hannukah or something else, right mom?"

Or, when your 7 year-old insists that eating something in the supermarket before buying is stealing, even if you *intend* to buy it and mom says it's ok, and refrains from the eating even though he is very hungry. I like that he rejected my sense of what was right and followed his own. Meanwhile my dd had sucked back the yogurt drink and asked for another :lol

Or, when your are at a restaurant and said kid, at this time 5 years old, asks why napkins are put in glasses. I venture that it is for decoration, my partner says it is to keep things neat, and my 5 year-old tells us that, no, we are wrong. It is to keep dust out of the glasses! (I love that he thought about and rejected our hypotheses, then made it own)

Or coming into a room and hearing music playing, the starting to do a dance to Tchaikovsky with full emoting, telling you that she is "acting out the part where Bambi's mother died in the forest" and ends with a graceful death onto the livingroom floor and stays there for a dramatic two minutes. She wasn't playing either, this was serious artistic expression at 6. It was wonderful.

(My son has a huge social justice conscientiousness, and a sense of fair and right. He really stands out among people who get to know him. His emotional intelligence is really remarkable. He is also quite scientific, and can explain mechanical things and concepts better than most adults. But interestingly, he has huge differences in ability in writing and reading, which means he is designated as Special Needs at school. My dd *needs* to act and dance and sing, and is such a natural).

Charles Baudelaire

07-04-2006, 10:42 AM

* When your 2.5 year-old is reading in bed with a flashlight longer than her head propped up by her shoulder.

* When she asks you to read the book (which she can read by herself) and then proudly points to the back cover, which says in large print, "For parents to read to their children!" and is delighted to have gotten you on a technicality.

*When she points out that you can't really be ON the computer. It would break.:lol

* When she says something and follows it up with, "Well, not literally."

* When your five-year-old is watching the movie All About Eve and makes the claim that Karen (one of the characters) is evil. This surprises you, because Karen is actually very generous and sweet, in spite of the fact that she's just been victimized by Eve, the main character. "No, Mom," she explains. "Karen's not evil. She's Eve-ill."

*Thunder rumbles at your house and your 5-year-old says in a creepy voice, "When shall we three meet again? / In thunder, lightning, or in rain?" and proceeds to re-enact the whole opening scene from Macbeth.

nyveronica

07-04-2006, 10:47 AM

steps in s-l-o-w--l-y... (I have lost friends talking about my child, so this is really nerve-wracking... and liberating)

Gifted is:

Your 2 year old telling you after a bad mommy moment that "you're upset because of you, I am a good girl"

Your 4 year old writing duplicate letters to both parents that proudly state: You are not perfect, but I love you that way

Your six year old who brings her wooded jewelry box to the dinner table to tell you it now contains one small thing from all the people who love her and that she wants it burned with her when she dies

Six year old breathlessly exclaiming from the back-seat that EVERYTHING in the WHOLE WORLD is ART!

After discussing with said six year old that a lot of people make good money doing computer animations and other types of commercial art and design; she replies with: "I couldn't do that. They would tell me which colors to use and what size to make things and my art is too free for that"

I want to keep her so close to me sometimes it's scary... she's been called freaky her whole life...

Charles Baudelaire

07-04-2006, 10:53 AM

These were all so true for our family....

* A newborn who naps 20 minutes a day, sleeps only 9 hours at night, and demands to be constantly entertained (by having you wave things in front of his face or read to him or show him pictures on the wall or things outside) the other 14 hours and 40 minutes of the day.
* Reading baby books in disbelief, wondering in dismay if your child is some kind of alien because almost nothing in the book applies to him except for the nursing stuff.
* Putting your 5 month old in the boppy so he can sit and turn the pages of his books by himself. This is your first break since he was born.
* Hearing the words "scary" and "amazing" and "freaky" applied to your child often enough that you start to get a sinking feeling in your stomach whenever people look at him "that way."

I got "monster." From my mom.

* You could school any politician in the art of shrugs, conciliatory smiles and topic changing.
* Being told by your local superintendent that there is nothing they can do for your child and you are better off homeschooling.

We were told by the special ed. person at our local school that they had "never had" a gifted child. We concluded we were better off homeschooling.

* Keeping comments on your child's progress confined to gifted support groups.

And getting your head torn off (virtually) if you don't keep to that rule, being accused of elitism, lying, pushing, deprecating others' children, or all three.

* You run into someone for the first time in three years and they ask you not how your kids are doing but if "they're in college yet, haha."
.
* If you are a homeschooler: You will never be able to use a canned curriculum because your kid is at so many different "grade levels" at once.

TRUE!!! And they're so unwilling to mix-n-match!!!

mamaverdi

07-04-2006, 11:08 AM

When you declare to someone that you'll stop nursing your son by the time he goes to college, (he's two at the time) and they say completely serious, "When will that be? Next year?"

eilonwy

07-04-2006, 11:46 AM

*When she points out that you can't really be ON the computer. It would break.:lol

:laugh: BeanBean did this one, too. Such a lovey little punk! :lol

lckrause

07-04-2006, 11:55 AM

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loraxc

07-04-2006, 01:01 PM

mamaverdi

07-04-2006, 07:49 PM

Toddlers are silent? :scratch

Charles Baudelaire

07-04-2006, 09:12 PM

Some more I thought of...

Gifted is having your 3.5 or 4-yo burst into profound tears while you're driving and when you ask what's wrong, they tell you, "When you're dead, your body will disintegrate and all that's left will be your soul, and souls don't have arms, so you can't hug me!!!" :(

loraxc

07-04-2006, 10:20 PM

eilonwy

07-04-2006, 10:58 PM

Heh, mamaverdi. True, not silent. But little toddlers (I mean on the young end of 1-2 years...the ones on the smallest "baby" climbing structure) SEEM silent compared to DD's nonstop stream of sportscaster-style commentator. They're usually just doin' their thing with the structure and not saying a lot.

In my experience, they *become* silent when presented with a child their size/age who talks like an adult.

CorasMama

07-05-2006, 02:08 AM

At 10 . . . now he compromises by saying "I know you were not being literal, HOWEVER..." :lol

Man, that sounds great! Where can I learn that skill?

CorasMama

07-05-2006, 03:14 AM

About four months after we'd moved here, and into a new ward (LDS congregation), I called to speak to my bishop (LDS pastor/minister). He wasn't home, so I left a message with his wife. When he got home, she couldn't remember my name, so she just told him that, "that sister with the really precocious little girl" had called. He knew instantly who she was talking about!

My DD isn't quite as far ahead as some of yours, by your descriptions, and frankly, I'm glad.

I was in the "ridiculously gifted" category as a child, myself. I had great schools most of the time, but I absolutely floundered in the 5th through 8th grades. I had so few social skills, made worse by two factors:
First, my parents had the brilliant idea to put me in kindergarten early, at age 4. And it was a program that was already designed for gifted kids!
Second, my parents had 50/50 joint custody of me, so at least every two years I moved to a different school, in a different school district, in a different state, all the way across the freakin' country, and became the "new kid" all over again.

When I was pregnant, I prayed that my child would be just smart, not crazy-gifted like me. I was a single mom, and I knew I just plain didn't have the energy that I took out of my parents.

I'm pretty lucky. She's just above "grade-level" (WHATEVER that means) in math, and somewhere around 5 years ahead in reading, so say the tests. All I know, is she's 8 and finished with harry potter. She's currently reading Inkheart and thinks its the coolest thing ever! She isn't as "gifted" academically as I was, but she is light years ahead of where I was socially. She gets teased, and she isn't really popular, but at least she and the other kids sometimes "get" each other. She is much more aware of other people's existence than I was at her age. When I was 8.5, I lived all in my head and my books. I didn't understand other people my age at all, where she loves to play with other kids of all ages.
Gifted is:

Your 8-yr-old voluntarily going to the children's librarian to ask for some recommendations for what to read next. She finally got frustrated at the low reading level of the recommendations the librarian was giving her, and explained that she was about to finish the sixth Harry Potter book, and that her teacher tested her at a sixth grade reading level "WHATEVER [eyeroll] that means!" (yeah, I got that from her)

When the librarian said, in a big, sing-songy voice, "WOW, that quite impressive! Your mom must be really proud of you!"
Cora responded, (insert another eyeroll here) "yeah, she is, but she's proud of me for being a good person and trying hard, not some arbitrary gift I was just born with!"

mahogny

07-05-2006, 05:51 AM

I have a question, and I'm sure it will come across as snarky, and I'll try to word it as diplomatically as I can, so please please give me the benefit of the doubt, here okay?

What is the difference between the things y'all are listing here in this thread and just normal child development? The reason I ask is that many kids can do the things mentioned....my own son has done a very large number of the things here, but they can be explained. Not that I don't think my son is wonderful and supersmart and everything (I am his mother afterall ;) ) but I'm just curious as to why this thread is defining these behaviors as "gifted" behaviors, when they seem VERY standard and normal to me.

Some of the things on this thread 4.5 yo DS can do, such as...

He can write and read, and loves spelling - but I read to him a LOT so that explains his interest.

My son makes up his own hypotheses all the time (the napkin in the glass story...) Why is that considered "gifted" and not just standard child development? He's learning to think for himself, which is standard child dev at this age.

he asks a lot of questions about death and what happens when we die, and where people go, are they still with us in some fashion (soul, etc) but his grandpa died 1.5 years ago, so of course it's on his mind.

He "reads" instruction manuals, but they're from his toys or other things he owns, and he was brought up in a reading household, and hey, it's just something to read.

He can quote lines from the Cars movie to the soundtrack after seeing it in the theatres. But he loved the movie, so of course why wouldn't he remember it?

Of course he uses his blocks and little people and Thomas trains to build things together, b/c that's what he has, and he builds what he's interested in. (The whole asyncrony argument - the blocks and the figures making the iditerod.)

Both my kids could identify animals (even abstract ones, akin to origami) before age two. I love animals, and I enjoy teaching my kids about animals, so why wouldn't they recognize what they've been exposed to?

He stops people at the zoo to tell them to stop chopping down trees to save the golden conure, a bird going extinct. But, again, we talk about saving the planet at home, so of course he knows that it's bad to cut down natural habitats.

He held his own garage sale last week, his own idea - brought his unused toys to the curb, made signs, and tried to sell his stuff to unsuspecting motorists - but he and his daddy brought home a foosball table from a garage sale several months ago, so garage sales are just on his mind.

He uses words such as "literally", and "possibly", ("I couldn't possibly see that firetruck, Mommy, from where I was sitting"), etc, but neither my husband nor I talk down to him, and use our regular words, so he hears that language all the time. If you cuss around a kid, they pick that up, too.

He recalls memories from before his sister was born. Also, right after his 3rd bday, my brother took him to see a movie, which he saw just that one time. He still talks about certain scenes and dialogue in the movie, but he loved the movie, and loved that my brother took him to a movie, so of course it made an impression on him.

And of course, my son hasn't started school yet, so he doesn't have the whole "the school wants me to homeschool him" thing, because he'll just start pre-K this fall.

So, what makes these behaviors you all have labeled as "gifted" vs just something that can be explained by something in the homelife? I could very likely pass my kid off as "gifted" on this thread too, but he's just developing normally, IMO. Why are these behaviors defined as "gifted" for you all?

Again, I KNOW I'm more than likely coming off as snarky, and that's not my intention at all. But my point is, how many of these "gifted" behaviors could all kids be capable of given the right home environments? What makes the kids on this thread "gifted" as compared to other kids? (I'm not talking test scores, b/c very few of you have mentioned them.)

Thanks for giving me the benefit of the doubt in my question, and for helping me understand.

LeftField

07-05-2006, 08:02 AM

*Deleted because it's offending others in this forum*.

LeftField

07-05-2006, 08:15 AM

Originally Posted by loraxc
Heh, mamaverdi. True, not silent. But little toddlers (I mean on the young end of 1-2 years...the ones on the smallest "baby" climbing structure) SEEM silent compared to DD's nonstop stream of sportscaster-style commentator. They're usually just doin' their thing with the structure and not saying a lot.
In my experience, they *become* silent when presented with a child their size/age who talks like an adult.

I had a silent toddler. I'm always struck by the great variation in gifted descriptions. Some are very physical. Others (like mine) have gross motor delays. Some are very extraverted and others (like mine) are very introverted. Some are chatty and some are silent. Mine was silent, because he was taking it all in. Also, he was exceptionally cautious, which used to worry me until I learned my husband was like this. He was silently evaluating risks and studying the other kids. I think these are personality traits.

nyveronica

07-05-2006, 08:27 AM

What is the difference between the things y'all are listing here in this thread and just normal child development? The reason I ask is that many kids can do the things mentioned....my own son has done a very large number of the things here, but they can be explained. Not that I don't think my son is wonderful and supersmart and everything (I am his mother afterall ;) ) but I'm just curious as to why this thread is defining these behaviors as "gifted" behaviors, when they seem VERY standard and normal to me.....

......Again, I KNOW I'm more than likely coming off as snarky, and that's not my intention at all. But my point is, how many of these "gifted" behaviors could all kids be capable of given the right home environments? What makes the kids on this thread "gifted" as compared to other kids? (I'm not talking test scores, b/c very few of you have mentioned them.)

Thanks for giving me the benefit of the doubt in my question, and for helping me understand.

Well, he may very well be!

In our particular case; we had a feeling from the start. When our dd was a few months old, that there was something extraordinary about her.

Strangers would stop to tell us us how special she seemed and people we knew would say things like: "she's going to be president", "how do you keep up with her?"

No matter what we did at home, she soared. In fact, we stopped 'teaching' her things like abc's, counting by 2's and 5's by the time she was 2.5 because we didn't want to burn her out. By then, she was already composing songs and regaling us with the most fascinating and detailed dreams and fantasies...

She went to a small (10 kids total) home-school type school when she was 4 because by then, I couldn't keep up and she was ravenous for things I couldn't do at the time (full time nursing student with a husband who travels for work). Her teachers.... you know what, I'm rambling and telling more than I want to right now....

To answer your question: You know. And/or you have it confirmed by a trusted outside source. What your family chooses to do with the knowledge that a gifted child is in your midst is up to you.

eilonwy

07-05-2006, 08:30 AM

I'm just curious as to why this thread is defining these behaviors as "gifted" behaviors, when they seem VERY standard and normal to me.

My first inclination is to say that you have a skewed view of reality; not as a snarky response, but because lots of us have very strange ideas about what constitutes normal behavior. My mother and I both thought that there was something horribly wrong with ChibiChibi because she didn't speak in full sentances on her first birthday. She had lots of words, but almost never strung them together, and we were seriously concerned about her development. :bag: Today I know that what we were expecting to see by her first birthday, based on our prior family experience, isn't something that most people look for until about 3 (at least).

He can write and read, and loves spelling - but I read to him a LOT so that explains his interest.

That's wonderful. Most 4.5 year old children can't read at all. The things to ask yourself are a) Did he teach himself? b) Is he reading at a much higher level than one would typically expect, based on the length of time that he's been reading? c) Does he find any reading challenging? d) Has he already worked his way through the children's section of the library, or does he think it's a waste of time and read books intended for older children? e) If he reads books for older children, how much does he understand? Do you find that you're constantly trying to help him deal with concepts which he can grasp mentally but is unable to accept emotionally?

I've got a niece who read at 4.5, but not (entirely) because she was gifted; she's hyperlexic. She read in a monotone, and the words that she'd read made no impact on her whatsoever; in through the eyes, out through the mouth with nary a stop in between. She could read the newspaper, but she didn't understand a word of it. My understanding is that children who are pushed to read before they are ready read in a similar fashion (not that I'm saying your son was). The difference between hyperlexia and a gifted early reader is that the gifted child understands, at the very least, the words that they are reading, understands sentences, paragraphs, and stories. Most of the time, they can intuitively summarize a passage with little to no effort. They learn to read quickly, and often find themselves running out of appropriate options in smaller libraries before they're seven or eight years old.

My son makes up his own hypotheses all the time (the napkin in the glass story...) Why is that considered "gifted" and not just standard child development? He's learning to think for himself, which is standard child dev at this age.

:duck: Personally, I agree with you on this one, but in the interests of full disclosure I must reiterate that my perspectives on child development are somewhat skewed. :blush

he asks a lot of questions about death and what happens when we die, and where people go, are they still with us in some fashion (soul, etc) but his grandpa died 1.5 years ago, so of course it's on his mind.

In my experience, gifted children not only ask about death at earlier ages, they often ask without any foreknowledge of or exposure to the subject (i.e. the passing of a grandparent). One doesn't necessarily preclude the other, though. :shrug

He "reads" instruction manuals, but they're from his toys or other things he owns, and he was brought up in a reading household, and hey, it's just something to read.

Does he "read" them, or actually read and understand them? There's a big, big difference.

He can quote lines from the Cars movie to the soundtrack after seeing it in the theatres. But he loved the movie, so of course why wouldn't he remember it?

Okay: After seeing the movie Toy Story *once*, my then 2.5 year old son could reenact entire scenes with uncanny accuracy. The voices, the inflections, and the words. When I borrowed the movie from a friend a few months later, he was able to flip through with the DVD remote and select his favorite scenes.

While a few lines of a film that one really enjoyed might stick, entire scenes usually don't (at least not after one viewing). In fact, I've found that the individual lines don't stick as well for most people. Often, BeanBean will recite a line from a movie, television show, or whatever and he and I will crack up laughing because even though he saw whatever it was with us, Mike just didn't remember the line and was unable to put it into context quickly enough to get the joke.

Of course he uses his blocks and little people and Thomas trains to build things together, b/c that's what he has, and he builds what he's interested in. (The whole asyncrony argument - the blocks and the figures making the iditerod.)

It's not building with blocks that's significant; it's what he was building, and why. Most adults in this country don't even know what the Iditerod (capital I) is. It's a very esoteric subject (well, for people who don't live in Alaska :p), yet Hollis discovered it when he was eight or nine and found it prudent to memorize all the rules.

Children who want to build will do so with whatever materials are handy. My son would love to build with some of those Magnetix toys, but I can't have them in the house because of his sister's PICA; instead, he builds with whatever he can find around the house. That's not a gifted trait in particular. A few months ago, he built a slide out of a bed rail, after building a complex pulley system involving yarn, a matress, a shelf, and the latch that locks the window. That's a little strange for a three year old.

Both my kids could identify animals (even abstract ones, akin to origami) before age two. I love animals, and I enjoy teaching my kids about animals, so why wouldn't they recognize what they've been exposed to?

My understanding is that many children can name animals to which they've been exposed at two; the child who can name animals which you've never shown them, or who remembers the name after hearing it once (before the age of 18 months, when they tend to start collecting words very quickly) is often brighter than average.

He stops people at the zoo to tell them to stop chopping down trees to save the golden conure, a bird going extinct. But, again, we talk about saving the planet at home, so of course he knows that it's bad to cut down natural habitats.

Does he come home afterwards and cry inconsolably because people weren't taking him seriously? Has he been obsessed with this particular aspect of saving the planet for several months, unable to move on because he can't get people to belive him/listen to him/treat him like an adult and take him seriously? Was this particular saving the planet discussion one that he initiated, or was it the result of something that you told him about this particular bird?

He held his own garage sale last week, his own idea - brought his unused toys to the curb, made signs, and tried to sell his stuff to unsuspecting motorists - but he and his daddy brought home a foosball table from a garage sale several months ago, so garage sales are just on his mind.

I would think of this as typical for a brighter child.

He uses words such as "literally", and "possibly", ("I couldn't possibly see that firetruck, Mommy, from where I was sitting"), etc, but neither my husband nor I talk down to him, and use our regular words, so he hears that language all the time. If you cuss around a kid, they pick that up, too.

At 4.5, I'd say this is a bright child; what about at two? As to cussing... well, I've got a pretty dirty mouth in real life, and of course my children have learned that, but before they were two years old, both of my older children knew that they weren't supposed to use these words in front of their grandparents, for example. They picked up more than the explicit message (the words themselves); there was a more subtle message to be picked up, namely that I never used such language in front of their grandparents. BeanBean once *told* me, when he was about 22 months old, that "Grandma will be very upset if I say 'f***' at her house." Where did he learn that? :shrug

He recalls memories from before his sister was born. Also, right after his 3rd bday, my brother took him to see a movie, which he saw just that one time. He still talks about certain scenes and dialogue in the movie, but he loved the movie, and loved that my brother took him to a movie, so of course it made an impression on him.

"Before his sister was born--" how long ago are we talking? My son also has memories from before his sister was born; his sister is 19.5 months younger than he is, and was born two years ago. This means that not only is he remembering events which took place two years ago, but before he was two years old. We're pretty sure that he's been remembering reliably and well since right around his third birthday. Now, to put this into perspective: This is another area in which I have strange expectations, because I myself have reliable, continuous memory from about 18 months on. I never knew that this was atypical as a child because my mother also has reliable, continuous memory from about 18 months on (at least, she did before her stroke... :nut but I digress). She remembers calling her aunt on the telephone to inviter her to her second birthday party. I remember my mom being arrested, supposedly for beating me, because I had a scrape on my chin (and I remember how I got that scrap!) and Mongolian spots on my behind, and the cops weren't familiar with that particular birthmark.

I've since learned that while many children can remember, at age five, things that happened when they were three, most can't remember things that happened before that (with the exception being traumatic incidents, which tend to make a deeper impression) and most adults can't remember much of what happened before they were four or five. Reliable, continuous memory seems to start running for most people at around 5.5 years.

And of course, my son hasn't started school yet, so he doesn't have the whole "the school wants me to homeschool him" thing, because he'll just start pre-K this fall.

Did your family doctor tell you, at your son's 1 or 2 year well child check that you should start thinking about homeschooling? That's been the experience of several women posting to this thread. BeanBean is 3.5 and I've already heard from perfect strangers that "it's a good thing you're homeschooling him, he'd be bored out of his mind in a regular classroom" often enough that I'd really like to have a nickel for each time; I'd have quite a college fund going by now. Our local school hasn't said a thing, but many, many people have.

So, what makes these behaviors you all have labeled as "gifted" vs just something that can be explained by something in the homelife? I could very likely pass my kid off as "gifted" on this thread too, but he's just developing normally, IMO. Why are these behaviors defined as "gifted" for you all?

I hope I've been able to clarify a bit for you. It sounds to me like you have a bright little boy on your hands, but not necessarily a gifted one.

Again, I KNOW I'm more than likely coming off as snarky, and that's not my intention at all. But my point is, how many of these "gifted" behaviors could all kids be capable of given the right home environments? What makes the kids on this thread "gifted" as compared to other kids? (I'm not talking test scores, b/c very few of you have mentioned them.)

I don't think that you're being snarky (and I'm trying very hard not to be, please forgive me if I am). The question of environment is an interesting one. In my list above, I used examples from my real life; my own children, my nieces, my siblings and myself. I realize that my siblings and I (for the most part) probably all qualify as profoundly gifted, and that therefore what I'm about to say may not necessarily apply, but we certainly didn't grow up in an enriched environment. Yes, we had a mother who loved reading and collected books whenever it was possible, but we also had times when there was no food on the table until the nice lady from Birthright brought over some things from the food bank, and I can remember washing my hair with generic dish soap on more than one occasion because we had nothing else in the house to get clean with. By no definition that I've ever encountered could we have been considered to have "the right home environment;" it was often barely adequate, and certainly wasn't conducive to producing gifted children (let alone the scary gifted children that it did, in fact, produce).

My neice (ChibiChibi, the three year old who refused to sing "Twinkle, Twinkle" in the wrong key) was born when my sister was 15 years old; her father is a complete nutjob. This didn't stop her from demonstrating a sense of humor at 3.5 months old, teasing her father by calling him by his first name, rather than saying "Daddy." She would say his name and then laugh hysterically when he tried to correct her. Eventually he walked out of the room to get ready for school, and as he left she looked me right in the eye, whispered his name again, and then she cracked up laughing. Half an hour later, she was in the high school daycare center, where she stuck out like a sore thumb from day one. All this, and I'm not even sure that ChibiChibi would qualify as profoundly gifted-- probably "only" exceptionally gifted (though it's very difficult to say, as most IQ tests are culturally biased and ChibiChibi's score would certainly suffer as a result).

There are loads of great websites which further delineate the differences between bright and gifted children; perhaps someone who isn't supposed to be putting their kids in the bathtub can hunt down links for you. :innocent

LeftField

07-05-2006, 08:34 AM

loraxc

07-05-2006, 09:26 AM

LeftField

07-05-2006, 09:49 AM

Hey, I hope no one thought I was being dismissive of the "silent" toddlers--I know some kids are quieter, of course, and that thet doesn't mean anything about who they are. My point was that when you see DD at the playground, you see a picture-perfect example of "asynchronicity" in action.

I understand what you're saying. :-)

lckrause

07-05-2006, 10:02 AM

...

ChristaN

07-05-2006, 12:45 PM

Again, I KNOW I'm more than likely coming off as snarky, and that's not my intention at all. But my point is, how many of these "gifted" behaviors could all kids be capable of given the right home environments? What makes the kids on this thread "gifted" as compared to other kids? (I'm not talking test scores, b/c very few of you have mentioned them.)

Thanks for giving me the benefit of the doubt in my question, and for helping me understand.
I don't take this as snarky. I honestly never thought of dd#1 in terms of "gifted" when she was younger and only realized that this was likely the "problem" when she was 6.5. She was always just "different" or "high needs" or a lot like me -- lol! I empathized with the kid b/c my mother complained quite a bit about how difficult I was and how dd was "payback."

I started to explore the concept of "gifted" late in her first grade year when we wound up taking her out of school to homeschool. We were at a loss as to what the problem was other than the teacher sucked! Dd was testing (according to the teacher) at about 4th grade level in many areas, but her speed was very slow and she was miserable. The teacher felt that her speed was due to laziness and repeatedly punished dd by making her do the same work over and over to get it down faster as well as keeping her in at recess all the time. Needless to say, dd was falling apart. After numerous meetings with the teacher and finally the principal, we took her out. She was telling me that she wanted to be dead or wished she had never been born. That's terrifying to hear from a 6 year old.

I started looking for ways to help her bring up her speed, reignite her interest in learning and find the best way to teach her. What I came across in this process was information on gifted children that described my dd to a T.

This link describes the difference btwn "gifted" and "bright"
http://www.memphis-schools.k12.tn.us/admin/curriculum/clue/comparison.html

But, ultimately what it was, was the emotional characteristics of giftedness that made it pretty clear that this was what we were dealing with. When I read Dabrowski's Overexcitabilties, it was like someone wrote a synopsis of dd:
http://giftedkids.about.com/od/gifted101/a/overexcite.htm

As far as test scores go, we did have dd tested this past January when she was 7yrs 4 months old. We wanted to know what we were dealing with and how best to help her. Her IQ score is gifted. She was highly gifted in some areas (99.9%) and very avg in others (all of those things related to processing speed, not surprisingly). She was also given achievement tests and came out near 12th grade level (in the middle of 2nd grade) in writing. Her reading is at about 7th grade, but none of this is important to me as much as having her taught in a way that recognizes that the unevenness of her abilities and speed is not only not due to laziness or some pathology, but that it is very, very normal for what she is -- a gifted child.

I think that the term puts people off like this child has gifts and very few others do. I wish that there were something better to label it, but I'll go with what we've got for now.

Just as a side thought in regard to others mentioning skewed perspectives, I do think that is also possible. B/c I did not recognize myself as what I am, I also did not realize why my dd was different or recognize her for what she is when she was very young either. No one ever told me that I was gifted or why I was so odd and isolated as a child. I just thought that there was something wrong with me, but lo and behold after dd was identified/diagnosed/whatever you want to call it, I realized what had been wrong with me all of my life! When my dds said their first words at 5 months, it truly seemed normal to me. After all, my mother told me that I was standing in my crib at 12 months telling her about the hippopotamus and rhinoceros on my wallpaper.

Charles Baudelaire

07-05-2006, 02:31 PM

mahogny

07-06-2006, 07:32 AM

Thank you all for your responses. ChristaN, your response and links were particularly useful, and mean a lot more to me than the anecdotal information elsewhere. I believe the information in the links is exactly what I was looking for, and answered most of my questions. Thank you most sincerely.

However, the second link you provided raised a few more questions for me - the "Overexcitables" theory made me think of Gardner's theory. So, what's the difference between being "gifted" and just excelling in one particular intelligence while lacking in another? Or is that just another definition of gifted?

For those that wondered (rightfully, I suppose) about my sense of child development, I hold a BS in child dev, and a MS in child counseling. So, I do believe I have an inkling of expected behaviors. ;) However, I never specialized in any kind of educational issues, so that explains my curiousity in this thread.

I also apologize for the disjointedness and evident capitalization errors of my previous post; I have a 16 mo DD who is getting her molars, and as a result, I had been awake 36 hours straight. I was suffering from one too many hits with the snake. ;)

Thank you all for your responses. I appreciate you taking the time to answer my questions!

Charles Baudelaire

07-06-2006, 09:41 AM

However, the second link you provided raised a few more questions for me - the "Overexcitables" theory made me think of Gardner's theory. So, what's the difference between being "gifted" and just excelling in one particular intelligence while lacking in another? Or is that just another definition of gifted?

This wasn't to me, but the problem many people, particularly people who specialize in gifted research (e.g., Miraca Gross and others) have with Gardner is that his theory of "multiple intelligences" is based on -- well, to be kind, I'll say faulty or nonexistent research, and more than that, it blurs the distinction between measurable "intelligence" and what we normally think of as "talents," which are in a different category. How, for example, are we to measure, much less compare, "intrapersonal intelligence"? How are we to measure, much less compare, "ecological intelligence"?

Frankly, Gardner's theory sounds very appealing to teachers, which is why we should all regard it as suspect. It democratizes intelligence and allows people to indulge in the fallacy that "all children are gifted," which (of course) is no more true than saying "all children are retarded," or "all children have ADD," or "all children have Tourette," or any other measurable, comparable mental condition.

To answer your question more specifically, giftedness doesn't always (and doesn't often) present as "global giftedness." That is, you'd probably not want Einstein to do your taxes, although he'd be an outstanding theoretical physicist; and you probably don't want Shakespeare or Mozart handling your theoretical physics -- or your taxes. While giftedness itself is rare, global giftedness is much rarer, but unfortunately, many educators are misinformed and believe that just because Kid X can do calculus at seven (but can't really write neatly and is reading basically at grade level), he must not be "really" gifted.

Hope that helped.

mahogny

07-06-2006, 10:12 AM

This wasn't to me, but the problem many people, particularly people who specialize in gifted research (e.g., Miraca Gross and others)

I'd love to read this research you speak of! Do you have links, or can you refer me to specific journal articles?

I admit, my only familiarity with Gardner is a brief mention in one class during my undergrad.

lckrause

07-06-2006, 10:34 AM

Here are some Miraca Gross links :)

http://www.hoagiesgifted.org/highly_gifted.htm

You might try googling her name as well. I got lots of hits but I don't have time to go through them all at the moment.

Lisa

EXOLAX

07-06-2006, 11:36 AM

Giftedness is somewhat like that -- it's not so different from normal except that (and
the "except that" is fairly crucial) it's earlier, more intense, more in-depth, and it does
interfere with your "normal" life, and it's not something that just goes away.

Does that help?

What a great analogy. I think it's wise to question the meaning of "giftedness". It can be variable and can change from one persons perspective to the next. We assume our children will be intelligent because we consider ourselves to be raising them in an environment that is very conducive to learning. We respond to their interests, we answer questions, we research together, we create together etc..

It would stand to reason that our DD would have an understanding of water drainage because we've walked the yard and the streets of our neigbhorhood following the water, examing the drains, putting things in them and following them to the drain pipe. When she asked what all the water was running down the side of the street I showed her our sump pump and we followed the path of the water. If we simply said it was just water, or drainage, she wouldn't have that knowledge. So I definitly believe environment plays a part. We try not to miss any opportunity for education.

But, there's a reason for that. Our reason is that our DD would not be satisfied with a simple answer. Does that make her "gifted"? Who knows and does it really matter (outside of an institionalised school setting that is)? She retains knowledge as well. The common thing most said about her is that she is an elephant, she seems to have the memory of one.

I also think there's a difference between memorization and conceptual understanding. Most children can recite things from memory; abc's, colors, shapes etc.. Even things more challenging: states and capitals for example. But there is a difference between those things recited with ease and an understanding of the why's and how's. It's the four year old who corrects people for saying the sun is setting (the literalists), it's the three year old who sounds out the word "life" as "Lif-E", correcting you for pronouncing it wrong. When you explain the silent e rule she starts finding it in words and then pretends to be "silly silent e" and goes around changing the way vowels sound in words spoken to her. Children who can understand advanced concepts and who show critical thought do present their own challenges; gifted or not.

Swirly

07-06-2006, 11:42 AM

momtokay

07-06-2006, 03:37 PM

I've never had my girls tested, but I suspect both are somewhere on the gifted spectrum. At any rate, I have more of a question than a list of observations. After reading the lists of what your kids are up to I know you all must run into this as well. How do you handle the other parents who see your 18-month old "speaking like an adult" or your 24 month old pointing to every letter you pass saying "B. . . buh. . . baby, banana, ball, etc." (even though you never "taught" her such things) or ask how long your DD has been doing gymnastics because she's the "best" in the class and you tell them she just started today and so on. It seems they always ask how old my kids are and then try to comapre them to their similarly aged/older kids? I'm always really uncomfortable in those situations so I'd love to hear some strategies to diffuse the discomfort without dismissing DDs gifts and/or accomplishments.

TIA!

eilonwy

07-06-2006, 05:31 PM

I don't necessarily know how to differentiate a gifted child who does remarkable things from a gifted child who simply *is* gifted (higher IQ scores?). (I don't believe all gifted people demonstrate particularly "genuis" type activity at a young age, at least not such as is described in this thread.)

I think the difference in thought process is more evident when children are very young, as long as the parents are paying attention and have some idea of what they're seeing. If the parents have no idea what a gifted child might do or how they might think, then it's possible for an IQ test to be "the first indicator," but when asked specific questions about their child's development, they'll always be able to say, "Oh, she did that, we thought it was normal," or "We thought that was a little strange, but who isn't a little strange?" :lol I can't imagine a child achieving an IQ in or above the exceptionally gifted range not demonstrating any of these behaviors, though. I'm not sure if it's possible. :scratch

It seems they always ask how old my kids are and then try to comapre them to their similarly aged/older kids? I'm always really uncomfortable in those situations so I'd love to hear some strategies to diffuse the discomfort without dismissing DDs gifts and/or accomplishments.

I find myself saying, "Thanks, I like him. He's loads of fun! :thumb" It's just like when someone comments on BooBah's eyes. :shy :D I haven't had too many people try to make comparisons, but when they do I tend to say, "They all come with their own challenges, don't they?" or something like that. I do think my children are the most amazing kids ever, and I encourage every mother to feel that way about her offspring. :loveeyes:

LeftField

07-06-2006, 05:49 PM

momtokay

07-06-2006, 09:56 PM

Traditionally, I admit :o that I have downplayed things, because I felt very awkward by the comments or questions. But now that I have a heads-up, I am armed with simply, "Thank you." and "He enjoys doing that."

HTH...

Thanks to you both! That is a great answer! I've also downplayed it in the past but haven't felt that was the right way to handle the situation. I like the simple, "thanks, she enjoys xyz." much better!

sophmama

07-07-2006, 12:32 AM

I am hesitant to post here but I have questions and no where to ask them. I think my dd is probably more on the 'bright' end rather than 'gifted', but I find myself constantly hiding and downplaying her abilities to others in conversations. I tried asking some home schooling friends for tips who do a really great job with their kids and I basically only got 'don't push' which duh! I know!! I don't! My dh asks his professors (he's getting his masters in education right now) and they are always very interested in his stories/questions and give little pointers but time with them is limited.

My dd (age 2.5) has an extreme ability to concentrate. Not in an autistic way (dh's masters is focusing in Special Ed and he's a Sp.Ed teacher so we're very aware of symptoms). She's one of the most socially charming children you could meet - she's very adept at interacting with people she likes but she does have high anxiety with some strangers. Her doctor told me within several minutes of being in the room with her that she was high IQ and her environmental/ stranger anxieties were because of her heightened sense of awareness. This was before I told her she had sight-read words before age 2 (self taught and I had to find neutral methods to quiz her to see if it was for real) and was currently working on learning phonetic blending to sound out words - eagerly wanting me to spend all my time teaching her to read. I feel silly when they ask you those milestone questions and she was doing the 2 year old stuff over a year ago. I feel like everyone thinks I'm lying - the blubbering mom who is so proud of her cutie that she bubbles over to tell everyone about their ability to do normal things - I've met plenty of them at least.

When she was just 2 my husband had to administer a test for his grad program and used her as a subject. (She loved the testing process! Fun game - sit and ask me questions and I get to answer!) She tested at Kindergarten and 5 months in knowledge/understanding. But really - that's not a big deal, right? I mean we're talking colors, shapes, numbers, letter sounds, find the object in the picture, and some squencing, a little comprehension stuff, etc. Nothing to shock you as to a kid's ability.

My home schooling friends told me to discourage her from learning to read and redirect her to more age-appropriate things. But I was reading at age 3 and never fulfilled their prophecy of 'burn-out' at age 9. I don't think reading at age 3 is a big deal. Quite a few of dd's cousins can read at least some by the time they're 3.

I tried to tell the friends I was seeking advice from that she would looove it if I would sit and teach her all day long every day. They didn't believe me. I told my husband that and he laughed (having been home between the school year and summer break and had a lot of time with her lately) and said, "Yes she would!!!" When she was 12-18 months she would sit and 'read' by herself 2-4 hours a day. I never tell people that. If I ask her to occupy herself quietly at a business meeting of mine she can do it with minimal interference from me for 2 1/2 hours. She has memorized many of the books we've read to her only once or twice. She knows where every article of clothing, toy, and book we own came from - even if she acquired it at age 9 months.

I don't know that she's truly "gifted" nor do I care to acquire the label. But it seems impossible for me to find anyone who can tell me how to deal with my kid's incessant need for information and learning and her ability to concentrate for so long. My friends were joking about people who teach their 2 year olds Spanish - well - she asks us to drill her on the Spanish alphabet and words, "Come on Daddy! Say, 'Ah' Say 'Beh' Say 'Che'" She looooves her anatomy books and wants to know EVERYTHING about the human body. She likes to talk about emotional issues and how people treat others. And the list goes on.

But I think of her as a normal kid. Other than being a little more anxious at times than other kids, she seems really socially well-adjusted. She has good friends (a few who show advancement in areas and are as verbal as her) - who they sit together and have lengthy conversations and make up games to play. (She loves to imagine and pretend she's all sorts of things - very funny kid).

I just have a hard time providing the amount of stimulus she wants. DH and I are both creating constant new learning games or whatnot for her, but she masters them quickly. She wants to be read to all day long. We each put in at least an hour a piece most days. She wants more. That's why little einstien (not baby einstien) and everything else is on too many hours a day - because atleast they can teach her something about history/art/language and it doesn't have to all come from me. If I were just a SAHM I could probably provide what she wants but I'm a WAHM and don't have the option.

So, like I said - she's not doing calculus and I don't care if she doesn't until high school. But where do I find materials that can satiate her hunger for more? Is there a place to talk about 'high functioning' kids who will probably not go to college at age 10?

mamaverdi

07-07-2006, 12:59 AM

Do NOT discourage your child from learning to read. That is horrid advice.

In my opinion, the difference b/w a gifted child and anyone else is how their minds work. A gifted person is as different from average people as people with downs syndrome are different from average people.

WRT the silent toddler: my ds2 actually is quite quiet...he still has very few words at 2. My ds1 is 6, and not a toddler, but I can never think of a moment when he has ever ever ever been quiet, except when sleeping.

mv

Charles Baudelaire

07-07-2006, 07:00 AM

I do think my children are the most amazing kids ever, and I encourage every mother to feel that way about her offspring. :loveeyes:

That is so sweet!

LeftField

07-07-2006, 07:08 AM

Do NOT discourage your child from learning to read. That is horrid advice.

Agreed and BTDT. I was advised to discourage my 1 year old from obsessing about books by hiding his books. Of course, that just made him seek out other books that he could find, even recycling materials. I cannot believe that I did that. It is really bad advice. No one would tell you to hide her Legos if she liked blocks or to discourage her from playing with dolls because it's all she wanted to do.

OTOH, if you're having a hard time providing the stimulation she wants/needs, maybe you can seek out other things...I'm not saying you haven't done this, but just in case...Maybe taking her on lots of outings would help satisfy her need for novelty and learning...My kids always loved the art museum and any kind of museum really. We spent a lot of time at the library (of course, that goes back to the "reading all day and I'm exhausted" thing). I try to keep an eye out for concerts, craft events, festivals, and even lessons that they may love (e.g. cooking, art). We do art stuff at home, like painting, clay, baking soda/vinegar volcanoes, etc. It is still tiring, but a different kind of tiring, I guess. It helps expose them to new things, encourage risk-taking (my first was extremely cautious and sensory avoiding), and it takes some of the pressure off me to entertain them all day. HTH!

lckrause

07-07-2006, 09:37 AM

eilonwy

07-07-2006, 10:04 AM

Her doctor told me within several minutes of being in the room with her that she was high IQ and her environmental/ stranger anxieties were because of her heightened sense of awareness.

That's a good one; the hieghtened sense of awareness is a much more telling indicator of giftedness than some. :nod

I feel silly when they ask you those milestone questions and she was doing the 2 year old stuff over a year ago.

I just went through this at BooBah's two year WCC. The doctor asked me if she played peek-a-boo, and I said, "Well, sometimes she plays it with her sister." It wasn't until two days later that I realized he was asking about playing peek-a-boo as a milestone. :duh BooBah stopped doing that on her own a year ago, it just wasn't interesting enough anymore. She still hides, but just covering her face isn't nearly tricky enough. :lol

When she was just 2 my husband had to administer a test for his grad program and used her as a subject. (She loved the testing process! Fun game - sit and ask me questions and I get to answer!) She tested at Kindergarten and 5 months in knowledge/understanding. But really - that's not a big deal, right? I mean we're talking colors, shapes, numbers, letter sounds, find the object in the picture, and some squencing, a little comprehension stuff, etc. Nothing to shock you as to a kid's ability.

Actually, it's a very big deal. Think about it: at the age of two, your daughter has, with little to no effort on your part, already mastered half of a kindergarten curriculum. Fast forward to age five; where will she be then? This goes to the skewed perspectives I was talking about earlier.

My home schooling friends told me to discourage her from learning to read and redirect her to more age-appropriate things. But I was reading at age 3 and never fulfilled their prophecy of 'burn-out' at age 9. I don't think reading at age 3 is a big deal. Quite a few of dd's cousins can read at least some by the time they're 3.

Tell your friends that your child is in fact already engaging in age appropriate activities. She's two and she's interested, eager, and able; she is less likely to harm herself doing this than she is, say, learning to ride a tricycle or trying to milk a cow. Learning to read is always an age appropriate activity if the child is ready, whether they're two or seven or twelve. Your child *is* being a child, even if she's reading at three.

I tried to tell the friends I was seeking advice from that she would looove it if I would sit and teach her all day long every day.

The rage to learn is very common among gifted children of all stripes.

I don't know that she's truly "gifted" nor do I care to acquire the label. But it seems impossible for me to find anyone who can tell me how to deal with my kid's incessant need for information and learning and her ability to concentrate for so long.

:hug Outside of a support group for gifted children, you're unlikely to encounter anyone who can help you.

But I think of her as a normal kid. Other than being a little more anxious at times than other kids, she seems really socially well-adjusted. She has good friends (a few who show advancement in areas and are as verbal as her) - who they sit together and have lengthy conversations and make up games to play. (She loves to imagine and pretend she's all sorts of things - very funny kid).

She is a normal kid-- a very, very highly gifted normal kid. :thumb Gifted children can be extremely well-adjusted. My son (and I don't think that he's quite as gifted as your daughter, but he's still a very bright little fellow) is the most extroverted, sociable child that I've ever met. He's also an excellent judge of character, and if he's anxious about someone, I know that it's totally justified. (I can't tell; I'm anxious about almost everyone, I just don't like people most of the time. :blush) He is happy and well adjusted as well, and while his favorite playmates are 7-12 year old girls, he'll comfortably play with just about anyone who crosses his path. It's certainly possible for a gifted child to be well-adjusted, to relate to their age-mates as well as to children outside of the peer groups which institutional education has taught us are so important. It's all good.

I just have a hard time providing the amount of stimulus she wants. DH and I are both creating constant new learning games or whatnot for her, but she masters them quickly. She wants to be read to all day long. We each put in at least an hour a piece most days. She wants more. That's why little einstien (not baby einstien) and everything else is on too many hours a day - because atleast they can teach her something about history/art/language and it doesn't have to all come from me. If I were just a SAHM I could probably provide what she wants but I'm a WAHM and don't have the option.

Honestly, this is why I want BeanBean to read on his own so much. :blush If only I didn't feel guilty every time I just gave up and put on a history channel videotape... :nut It'd be nice to toss him some books and say, "Okay, here, read this." :lol

Given more money, I'd have a lot more open-ended learning toys around here than I do. My children will find ways to explore and examine anything that they like, and because we don't have loads of toys to do it with, they do it with everything else. They are rarely bored, they can always find something to entertain themselves with, but boy can they be destructive and they sure make a lot of messes. I know how they feel; I can remember mixing things that I found under the kitchen cabinets because I wanted to experiment with chemicals. I can remember setting up a candle and parts of a soda can with a meat thermometer, because I wanted to see if I could alter the melting point of the metal. I did all kinds of very dangerous things because I didn't have safe tools to work with, but I was desperate to know, I couldn't sleep, I couldn't breathe, I couldn't let go and I HAD TO KNOW. As a young child, the safety measures weren't firmly embedded in my mind. I didn't realize that I was going to burn the house down if I fell asleep watching my experiment, I thought that it was safe enough and I didn't have anything else so I went ahead.

I suppose this is why my mother was so understanding when I did relatively safe experiements; I bet she went through the same thing. :lol

So, like I said - she's not doing calculus and I don't care if she doesn't until high school. But where do I find materials that can satiate her hunger for more? Is there a place to talk about 'high functioning' kids who will probably not go to college at age 10?

Visit the Addressing the Special Needs of Gifted Children (http://www.mothering.com/discussions/showthread.php?t=471061) thread, as well as Hoagie's (www.hoagiesgifted.org). There are resources available, there are ideas and there are other parents who are dealing with the same issues. Oh, and don't discount the idea of your daughter going to college at 10. You never know, do you? :wink

Daffodil

07-07-2006, 10:38 AM

I don't know that she's truly "gifted" nor do I care to acquire the label. But it seems impossible for me to find anyone who can tell me how to deal with my kid's incessant need for information and learning and her ability to concentrate for so long.

So, like I said - she's not doing calculus and I don't care if she doesn't until high school. But where do I find materials that can satiate her hunger for more? Is there a place to talk about 'high functioning' kids who will probably not go to college at age 10?
You might want to read this article (http://helendowland.terminus.net.au/Gifted%20children%20the%20Myth.htm). Most gifted kids don't do anything nearly as remarkable as going to college at 10, but when people hear the word "gifted," they tend to think of those 10 year old college students they've heard about and assume that's what being gifted means. (Although there also seem to be a lot of people who hear "gifted" and think it's just a word boastful parents like to use to mean, "My kid does better in school than yours ever will." I think this thread is intended to counter that kind of thinking.) If I hadn't ever found out my IQ test results, I doubt I would have considered myself gifted or felt comfortable calling my daughter gifted. I haven't posted on this thread, because nothing she does is really all that remarkable or interesting to read about, but I do think she's gifted.

It certainly sounds likely that your daughter would do well enough on an IQ test to be considered gifted. That's all "gifted" means - having a high IQ. People can debate whether or not a high IQ score actually represents a real inborn difference in ability to learn and understand, or whether or not it's useful to test for IQ and label kids "gifted." But whatever you may think about the gifted label, it might be useful for you to recognize that your daugther probably would be considered gifted, and if you want to talk to other people with similar kids and get ideas about dealing with her needs, resources intended for parents of gifted kids are probably what you want.

loraxc

07-07-2006, 12:29 PM

This wasn't to me, but the problem many people, particularly people who specialize in gifted research (e.g., Miraca Gross and others) have with Gardner is that his theory of "multiple intelligences" is based on -- well, to be kind, I'll say faulty or nonexistent research, and more than that, it blurs the distinction between measurable "intelligence" and what we normally think of as "talents," which are in a different category. How, for example, are we to measure, much less compare, "intrapersonal intelligence"? How are we to measure, much less compare, "ecological intelligence"?

It may be hard, if not impossible, to measure, but I like Gardner's theories because they make it clear that there are "gifts" outside of the realm of high intellectual ability. That doesn't mean that a child with kinesthetic giftedness belongs in a high-ability classroom, but it does take away some of the perceived snobbery and one-dimensionality of the whole "gifted" discussion. I think that if we all could acknowledge the many different ways in which people excel, it might be less taboo to talk about the needs of highly intelligent children. This is *not* me saying "All children are gifted," because I don't think they are either, in the "technical" sense. But I think we could expand and diversify our ideas of "gifts" to everyone's benefit.

**guest**

07-07-2006, 03:35 PM

Gifted is:

Performing at a 7-10 yr old level (academically) when he hasn't even turned 3 yet.

Playing the violin (by ear) at 2 yrs old.

Being able to assemble things (with real tools) without instructions at age 2.5

Understanding how things work when even mama doesn't know that. ;)

Gifted is not:

Being able to recite the alphabet song

Being popular with other kids

jkpmomtoboys

07-07-2006, 03:48 PM

This is an interesting thread for me to read. For years, ds1 was referred to as the "child with the freaky recall" and all other sorts of "Einstein" sort of names. But as he got older, his interests became more varied and intense but it was less the sort of alarming list that you run through in your head when a child is 2 and doing things ahead of his peers and more along the lines of what is he reading and how long does he focus on his legos and what are his interests.

In other words, it has gotten easier to accomodate his "giftedness" as he's gotten older because there are a lot more outlets, at school and beyond, and a lot more things he can explore himself.

Also, as he gains more friends in school, there are a lot of kids who are gifted in ways (physically, emotionally) that he is not necessarily, so it all balances out these days and is less of a focus than it was when he was 2, 3, 4.

Anyway, interesting to read this blast from the past type of thread... got to go--he's reading over my shoulder and I don't discuss this in front of him...

ChristaN

07-10-2006, 10:06 PM

Is there a place to talk about 'high functioning' kids who will probably not go to college at age 10?

My dd is not doing calculus or anything close to it and, while she will be subject accelerating in some of her stronger areas and I haven't ruled out a grade skip at some point, I can assure you that she will not be off to college in two or three years. I think that people are thinking 'little man Tate' when they are thinking gifted. I was shocked to learn that an IQ of 130 or so puts one in the top 2% of the general population. We are not talking only about savants here. While some gifted kids may be so far and above the norm that they stand out like that, most do not. Yet, they are still different and have different needs.

I believe that it is important for us to not underestimate our children and think that they are just high average simply b/c they aren't composing symphonies at age 3. My older dd (the one who hit the ceiling on the IQ test on abstract reasoning and tested at middle school-high school reading and writing level at 7) didn't read at all until she was 4. Not that this is late, but my point is that the kid wasn't reading at 2 and language arts is one of her stronger areas.

~*SugarMama*~

07-11-2006, 09:11 AM

I am not sure that this even belongs in this thread but after reading through the responses, I think that it could fit.

My DD will be four in September but she fits some of the things profiled in here. She can still remember things that happened around her first birthday ("Remember when it was all dark and scary in the house and I was walking with my lamb?"....she was about 11 months old when we lost power for a few days due to the power plant in Niagara Falls going down and she DID learn to walk right about then) She remembers (and tattles) with accuracy everything that happens while I am working. DH and DS have learned that if they want something kept from me, don't tell her because she feels the need to run every single thing over to me.

Her vocab is scary sometimes and she intimidates other children with it. She gets made easily (even though I think that its stemming from frustration) with other children her age because they "don't follow the rules of play" right. She tells me constantly that other children her age are "stupid" because they cannot communicate the way that she wants them to. But at the same time, she has a friend that is mentally disabled and Lexie's inability to communicate or cooperate doesn't bother her in the least. Like she instinctively can tell that Lexie needs more patience than the other children.

She can be VERY literal in her meanings at times and seem just like a normal toddler and at other times, she can give abstract meanings to words. After seeing the end of Titanic one night, she was very upset that Rose would lie to Jack about not letting go of him. But in the next breath told me that even though I am going to die someday, she knows that she will always be in my heart. For some reason, movies need to be literal but she can apply what she is seeing to everyday. She will not watch most cartoons because "animals are not supposed to talk" but she will conceed that "animals can hear if you have a gentle heart".

She has a huge fascination with death and dying even though we have never lost anyone close to us. She constantly asks what happens when we die, when are we going to die, why do people die. She tells us that she "want to die to meet Jesus" and in the next breath tells us that only some people believe in Jesus and that's ok for everyone to have their own beliefs. We don't attend church and while my mil is a strict Catholic, DD's exposure to the subject is very small to nil.

When she is hooked on something, it takes her everything. She will seem to obsess over every last detail of a puzzle, pointing out things to me that don't belong or are out of place. And she cannot handle things being wrong. Yesterday, her friend's swimsuit was untied on the leg and DD had a complete meltdown because it wasn't bothering her friend but it was bothering her. Because it was "wrong".

Her friend also speaks little English, relying more and more on hand signals and Vietnamese. After playing with her for two hours, DD could understand about 90% of what the girl was saying in V. Couldn't say the words herself but knew when the girl wanted her to go to the left, to the right, up, down, bring something to her, give her her hand, etc.

In other words, verbally she seems advanced and her thought processes amaze me. But she cannot read (can recite all her letters and sometimes will identify them but only on her terms), cannot do math (she can count pretty high but doesn't want to learn what they look like) and has no apparent outstanding mechanical skills.

But all of this does make her different than her peers and as a whole, she is labelled as the bully, the freak, the drama queen. Just trying to find out what I am facing in the future. :(

ZeldasMom

07-11-2006, 12:20 PM

I have had experiences with people with many different kinds of labels, which has shaped my opinion about what it is to be gifted.

I don't like the term "special needs" because it implies that some people have special needs and some people don't, when in reality all of us have special needs. The term special needs came to be because there were some nondisabled people who thought it was a nicer sounding way to talk about disability. The term is too Jerry Lewis for my taste. To me "disability" is not a swear word, so that's the word I use when that's what I mean.

I don't like the term "gifted" because it is often used in a way implies that some people are gifted and some people are not. IMO when we think that someone is not gifted it is because we are not listening/looking hard enough to know how they are gifted. Judith Snow (http://www.inclusion.com/artcreatingwhatiknow.html) and Dennis Granzen (http://www.fsrcdane.org/resource.php?cid=10) have interesting things to say about gifted listening.

I am interested in creating the kind of world where we don't need to have a special label to get something more than a cookie cutter, one-size-fits-all kind of life.

I am not offended by the above posters sharing their experiences and supporting one another and don't mean to put anyone down. I am merely offering these comments to share another perspective on this issue.

eilonwy

07-11-2006, 08:40 PM

I am interested in creating the kind of world where we don't need to have a special label to get something more than a cookie cutter, one-size-fits-all kind of life.

:scratch I'm sorry, but what was the point of posting that here? When I hear comments like this, it always makes me think of people who say, "Oh, I'm not racist, I'm colorblind, I don't see color when I look at a person," and then get all offended when you tell them that that is, in fact, passive racism.

I am not offended by the above posters sharing their experiences and supporting one another and don't mean to put anyone down. I am merely offering these comments to share another perspective on this issue.

This is a perspective with which we are all familiar, just as African Americans are familiar with the whole "colorblind" perspective; it's simply not a luxury that all of us have.

eilonwy

07-11-2006, 08:50 PM

:double:

alegna

07-11-2006, 09:24 PM

The term "special needs" usually follows from "special education" Now I'm the first to say that the whole education system should be thrown out and restarted from scratch, but yeah, as long as we're stuck with the one we have some kids DO need a "special" education more than others do.

That aside- I ABHOR the whole "all children are gifted" line. :blah Yeah, it's not a perfect "label" but none of us here made it up and it's the one used to describe our kids.

-Angela

BinahYeteirah

07-11-2006, 10:47 PM

Your 8-yr-old voluntarily going to the children's librarian to ask for some recommendations for what to read next. She finally got frustrated at the low reading level of the recommendations the librarian was giving her, and explained that she was about to finish the sixth Harry Potter book, and that her teacher tested her at a sixth grade reading level "WHATEVER [eyeroll] that means!" (yeah, I got that from her)

When the librarian said, in a big, sing-songy voice, "WOW, that quite impressive! Your mom must be really proud of you!"
Cora responded, (insert another eyeroll here) "yeah, she is, but she's proud of me for being a good person and trying hard, not some arbitrary gift I was just born with!"

That was me as a child.

I hope my children are just smart, too, because it was very hard for me.

ZeldasMom

07-12-2006, 01:15 AM

As I mentioned in my post, I am not speaking of an issue with which I have no personal experience. After taking pains to express myself in as thoughtful and respectful a way as I know how it hurts to not have the same courtesy extended to me. The tone of the responses to my post and the implied assumptions about me do not make me feel comfortable making further attempts to explain myself.

ChristaN

07-12-2006, 09:44 AM

It seems that this thread is deteriorating into an arguement of whether gifted children are special needs children and whether "gifted" even exists -- thus the 'all children are gifted' arguement.

I really don't know that it is worth continuing this discussion as it seems there are some intractable opinions here and all we are serving to do is offend one another. It is not my desire to offend anyone. My only desire in posting here is to find support and help for my dd such that she can grow up as a happy, well adjusted person. When I attempt to discuss this with many of my friends IRL, I have often run into two responses:

1) I am doing something wrong (i.e. my parenting is faulty). I got this a lot when she was a baby. (Like the friend who gave me a book that started with the statement that all babies are the same in response to my seeking support for the fact that I hadn't slept in a year since dd screamed all night and I was a single mom in grad school.)
2) Competition. Everyone thinks that his/her child is gifted in my neighborhood b/c it is some kind of status symbol. There is the neighborhood mom who kept quizing my dd on her "reading level" and sitting her down and making her read things to her when she was over to play with her child and then calling me up to yell at me about how her child is smarter than mine and I am jealous. It makes me cry.

I truly, truly don't think that my dd is better; I do worry so much about her. I lost the dearest person to me from depression and a drug overdose when we were 20. I suffered from years of depression and an eating disorder. I see many similarities to myself as a child in dd and I would do anything to avoid having her go there. I am not looking to compare my dd and have her come out on top. I want to know how best to parent this special child. Yes, all children have gifts; all children have talents. Not all children are wired like my child just like not all children with anxieties have anxiety disorders.

My same friend who thinks that my dd is in competition with hers also thinks that her nephew with an ASD has behavioral issues that are caused by faulty parenting as well. I realize that parents of other special needs kids feel judged and misunderstood. If our existence here is contributing to that, I am very willing to post elsewhere. I just don't want to post where it is going to incite feelings of competition among other parents either or where I am going to be told that my dd tends toward depression b/c we are vegan and her diet is lacking or b/c I am parenting her wrong...

psyche

07-12-2006, 10:58 AM

I am not sure that this even belongs in this thread but after reading through the responses, I think that it could fit.

I can definitely empathize with some of your post. Your daughter sounds a bit like my son. He has a memory that amazes me (although my mother and I both have good memories of our earliest years so it shouldn't really surprise me). He's able to put things together really well mentally. But he doesn't read yet. He's not doing multiplication in his mind. Heck, he usually skips over fifteen when he's counting.

I haven't posted on this thread until a few minutes ago because none of his behaviors are so very in the stratosphere. His interests are trucks and trains. He loves building with his Tinker Toys, but mostly likes to build things with wheels. He uses keen powers of observation for ... things with wheels. (For example, he can look at the wheels of a car and say if any of his friends have the same type of wheels on their cars. It's actually pretty funny because my husband works with wheels and tires for his job (we are just about in the "motor city") but DS's interest developed separately from that.) He's incredibly intense. He's come up with some pretty profound ideas for a four year old.

He's an average gifted kid, like most of the people to whom he's related (which is why I can peg him with the label - I recognize some of the things he does as what I did or what my younger relatives did). He'll probably test well. He'll be able to get good grades without trying too hard, if we can help him keep any interest in school at all. He probably won't be going to college when he's ten or fifteen.

Clarinet

07-12-2006, 11:51 AM

I hate this whole "my experience is worse than yours so I don't want to hear you complain" attitude.

I am a grown-up gifted kid. I was called freak, dork, nerd, brown-noser, crazy and sometimes it was by adults. I was reading the newspaper by age three. I said words like reverberate, disillusioned, conundrum and discombobulate around adults who had no idea what those words meant. I have the ability to remember virtually every number I come in contact with - so freaky I could remember people phone numbers when I wrote them on their checks at the grocery store. I learned after a couple years in school how to dumb myself down so I could make friends and not be the "wierdo." I firmly believe gifted is special needs. I know I drove my parents crazy all the time with my need for stimulation and education.

4imprints - I think the original list was actually the tribulation that comes along with having a gifted child. You are totally not being fair to act like the things that really make the OPs life hard are not as bad as the things you face. What you see as "wonderful things" are apparently difficult for others.

LeftField

07-12-2006, 11:51 AM

I responded to your list (italics) with our example, since we are all trying to understand each other. :innocent

By 4imprints, italics mine:
Here is a list I would have thought would be appropriate:
Real life experiences of a gifted child:
- being constantly worried about your chid because they are more prone to suicide and depression
In our case, I just worry that he worries about things and there's a tendency towards anxiety. At the playground, he could find the tiniest bit of cobweb thread hanging from something and then he was unable to play on that equipment. Other kids were playing and he would just anxiously stand on the sidelines and worry about the cobweb for the entire duration of the visit. He was unable to walk down the sidewalk for a few months without looking for cobwebs and worrying that he might see a bit of one and it would be too close to him. After a year, we're finally at a point where I can usually convince him to use a cloth or tool to brush the cobweb off, but it still causes him a lot of anxiety and mental prep to be able to approach that tiny bit of web. He often doesn't play outside still, because of the fear of cobweb silk; he's always looking for them.
- hurting for your child when they struggle to hold a conversation with a kid his own age simply because his thinking is more advaced
*In our case, my child would not approach other children, because they made him nervous. He disliked physical play, had some gross motor delays and was extremely cautious. So, as most toddlers are physical and unpredictable, he was unable to approach them and play with them. He started being able to play with groups of kids at 4.
- hoping that your child can still make friends even though everyone tends to think that you are just bragging
I did not talk to other people about my child, because if they noticed that he was doing something unusual, it was not uncommon to get a hostile or defensive reaction. Instead, I tried to hide what he did, downplay what he did and change the subject a lot. I am learning to stop downplaying and lying about it and just answer "yes", "no", etc.
- having people understand that his other issues are real issues that also need to be adressed - sensitivity etc.
Sure.
- having a child who you constantly have to think of new ways to interact with and worrying that one day and one day soon his intelligence will surpase yours and you won't be able to entertain him anymore
This is not an issue to us. I don't care if he's less or more intelligent. If something presents itself that I have little/no knowledge on, I just try to find the answer.
- just having to have a different life than parents of "average" children.

Charles Baudelaire

07-12-2006, 12:36 PM

Here is a list I would have thought would be appropriate:
Real life experiences of a gifted child:
- being constantly worried about your chid because they are more prone to suicide and depression

- hurting for your child when they struggle to hold a conversation with a kid his own age simply because his thinking is more advaced

But Sara, then doesn't that, by your own definition, invite -- heck, necessitate -- some discussion of the nature of that discussion and the discrepancy in the children's ages? Doesn't that sound remarkably like the parent whose discussion of the intricacies of the Iditarod glazes over the eyes of the adults around him? Not too long ago at a Titanic exhibit, I met the Titanic version of the Iditarod kid. He was about ten, and he was far more well-informed than the docent or the audio wand -- we started talking about sulfur content in the steel that comprised the Titanic's hull, and I had a great time doing so, but just how do you think this kid does in school? How well do you think he makes friends with non-Titanic enthusiasts? How many of his fellow ten-year-olds can really engage in a conversation with him? In short, these issues are all bound up together, Sara. You can't just say it's okay for us to b*tch, but not say why we're b*tching or what the issues are.

- hoping that your child can still make friends even though everyone tends to think that you are just bragging
- having people understand that his other issues are real issues that also need to be adressed - sensitivity etc.
- having a child who you constantly have to think of new ways to interact with and worrying that one day and one day soon his intelligence will surpase yours and you won't be able to entertain him anymore
- just having to have a different life than parents of "average" children.

Well, not to belabor my point more than usual, but how do you think a discussion like that gets accomplished without telling about WHY you're going to have a different life than parents of "average" children? Gee, I could launch into a whole discussion of why my friendship with L broke up partly because her daughter, who's only a few weeks younger than mine, seemed so very different from mine whenever they were together, even as babies, because mine did "X," and hers wasn't doing "X" yet, and she started making little comments here and there and recommending stuff like Einstein Didn't Use Flash Cards (implying very strongly that she thought I did use them), and so on...but then, wouldn't it sound an awful lot like bragging about what my child can do?

To me - that is acceptable worries and complaints. But complaining because your child discussed the Ididatrod with strangers is not a real complaint.

And you don't think that the Iditarod conversation was a great example of what you said above, specifically, "hurting for your child when they struggle to hold a conversation with a kid his own age simply because his thinking is more advaced"? Heck, this isn't even a situation where the conversation takes place with a "kid his own age," but rather, adults. You don't find that an acceptable worry?

Charles Baudelaire

07-12-2006, 12:40 PM

peekyboo

07-12-2006, 02:47 PM

Why? Because unlike other children whose special needs are justly and appropriately served by the school district, something I am genuinely delighted that my tax dollars go to pay for -- most school districts in this country make only the most minimal modifications towards "X"-ness, and often do so with what I can only refer to as sneering hostility and sarcastic resentment of "X" children, whom many teachers perceive as threats or hothoused little flowers of parental pushing.

Sadly, the idea that kids with disabilities and delays get all sorts of great services by the school district or state is not true. My dh wanted to move back to his home state (something I wasn't for anyway), yet that state has NO services whatsoever for kids with delays. Which means all the services my dd gets for free right now, we'd have to pay $100 an hour for (since medical insurance won't cover it either.) A friend of mine in another state has been fighting for her ds's entire life just to make sure he gets basic therapies and he's "Special Needs" with a big SN! He's non-verbal and went months w/o ST b/c the state just doesn't think it's all that necessary. My state does provide some services, and I'm one of the lucky ones who lives in a county that does all it can to provide services, but other counties don't - my friend moved into another county and her dd's PT was held up for at least 6 months now - six months w/o PT is HUGE in a toddler's life!

I'm not saying it's all peaches and cream on the other end of the spectrum, but it's not all fuzzy hugs here either. Luckily, all those years of advocating for my eldest was a good warm up for advocating for my dd.

ZeldasMom

07-12-2006, 03:23 PM

I think it is helpful when struggling with hard issues to
make an effort to reach out to those with differing experiences/points of view and regard what they have to say through a lens of love and acceptance. This is hard, but I believe this is what we must do if we want to truly hear and understand each another. Here (http://www.allaboutbell.com/home.html) (go to interviews and click on Thich Nhat Hanh) is a piece from bell hooks about how love helps us to know the other that I find inspiring in my efforts to understand what others are saying. I think she is right on when she says that “Love illuminates matters.”

I was asked why I posted. The thread asked people to share their experiences with gifted children, an area in which I have personal experience. My point in making the comments that I did was to express that there are gifts a human being can possess other than having an IQ that is above the third or fourth standard deviation on an IQ test and that there is value in celebrating these other gifts as well. I think this is important to mention because, unlike having a high IQ, these other gifts are often not socially valued to the degree that intelligence is. I am not familiar with anyone who has suggested that children with high IQs might be better off dead, but this is the case when it comes to children with disabilities, whose gifts are all too often ignored/not given a chance to flourish. There is a well-known animal rights activist named Peter Singer who has famously commented that a well-satisfied pig’s life is richer and more valuable than that of a child with mental retardation. There have also been several cases where parents have murdered children with disabilities and instead of public outrage the widespread response was that somehow such behavior is understandable and justified (google Tracy Latimer).

It is not just people with disabilities who benefit if we take a wider view of the qualities worthy of celebration. Michael Smull (http://www.allenshea.com/fullinclude.html) makes the case that this can benefit all children. (Unfortunately the link to this essay is broken, but I am including it in case it gets fixed soon.)

Some pp have mentioned the hardships their atypical children experience. For example, children who have high IQs sometimes experience social isolation, an experience that is unfortunately shared by children with disability labels. It is not my intention to minimize that pain. I have seen it firsthand and know it is real. I have also had the joyous experience of seeing children from these all too often socially marginalized groups join together to support each other in advocacy activities. I truly believe we can get the best outcomes for all our children if we don’t get caught up in us vs. them kind of thinking.

"Those who are members of society, and those who are marginalized
from society, have a great need for each other's gifts.
The sand of ordinary life is lived in community where people spend
their days doing very ordinary things. They write, talk on telephones,
teach children, play with babies, wash dishes, go for walks, read books,
and cry on each other's shoulders. All of this happens in ordinary places
on commonplace streets, all the time, everywhere. This very commonness
is a real gift, a real benefit not to be ignored.
The gift of surviving and growing through change belongs to the outcast.
Living on the margin either bums you out and kills you, or it turns you
into a dreamer, someone who really knows what sort of change will help
and who can just about taste it; someone who is prepared to do anything
to bring about change. If these dreamers are liberated, if they are
brought back into the arms of society, they become the architects of the
new community; a community that has a new capacity to support
everyone's needs and interactions."
(Judith Snow at Frontier College, October 1988, 89th Annual Meeting).

chann96

07-12-2006, 04:11 PM

I generally try to avoid these gifted threads, but I wanted to post my perspective on this discussion.

1. I am a truly gifted person and have not had an easy time with life, however I would never ever label myself as "special needs." I think it rather insulting and debilitating to all of those gifted children. They already stick out from t