Slightly fluffy, but really, this book so rubs me in the wrong way. Do I know shamefully have to retreat from mothering :loveeyes: ?

or maybe is there someone else feeling the same?

You know, I liked it because I started reading it at a time when I was in need of reassurance, but by the time I got to the end I found some of it kind of out there. Bringing a crock pot of herbs to the hospital, for example. And wasn't there something about acting out a labor in class, like so and so is the baby and so and so is the uterus? I couldn't help but wonder how goofy I'd feel if I was taking that class.

I didn't love it. I liked it okay but I'm not into all the artsy stuff she recommends doing though maybe i would've had my vba2c if I had done the exercises :lol I just couldn't get into it though I enjoyed some of the labor stories.

You're not alone. It bothered me too. There are some good ideas in there, but the overall tone just grated on me. This attitude of total "mind over matter," visualize your way through any problem, the pain's all just an illusion...whatever. It takes the attitude of teaching you to be so serene you don't feel pain, or don't mind it, or whatever. What I needed, it turned out, was just to know that I was tough, strong enough to withstand the pain. I can't be the only woman who works that way. Serene, shmerene, I wish the natural birth community could acknowledge that sometimes you do everything "right" and it still hurts like !@#$.

:wave Yeah, it was too art-based for me to relate. I never got through it.

I couldn't help but wonder how goofy I'd feel if I was taking that class.

That was the funny part :p

I also easily skipped the art pages.

But I'm really bothered when it said that one should worry and if you're overconfident you'll be in for a surprise. I don't like the notion that fear must be part of childbirth and one can think too positively.

You're not alone. It bothered me too. There are some good ideas in there, but the overall tone just grated on me. This attitude of total "mind over matter," visualize your way through any problem, the pain's all just an illusion...whatever. It takes the attitude of teaching you to be so serene you don't feel pain, or don't mind it, or whatever. What I needed, it turned out, was just to know that I was tough, strong enough to withstand the pain. I can't be the only woman who works that way. Serene, shmerene, I wish the natural birth community could acknowledge that sometimes you do everything "right" and it still hurts like !@#$.

True. I truly believe it is possible to give birth without the extensive preparation the book suggests but it doesn't leave any room for : you might be the kind that can do without. Quite honestly, I have more confidence in my husband's hip squeeze helping me.

The first half or so of the book, I didn't get a whole lot out of. But I really appreciated all the different suggestions of things to try. It's a good reminder that no one techinique will work for everyone or even for the entire labor.

But I'm really bothered when it said that one should worry and if you're overconfident you'll be in for a surprise. I don't like the notion that fear must be part of childbirth and one can think too positively.

This was a part I did relate to... probably because I took hypnobirthing and the idea there was that positive visualization WILL create a positive outcome. It's an idea I like in theory, but I was having trouble making sense of why I couldn't stop thinking through all the details of a hospital transfer, a c-section, etc. My dh didn't want me to talk about it, just think happy thoughts, and I thought I was being a compulsive worrier or something. But then just reading that "worry is the work of pregnancy" somehow tweaked my brain... I was able to visualize myself calmly accepting an emergency intervention, and also visualizing dh and my midwives shielding me from an attack by people in scrubs. So oddly, being free to worry somehow led me back to thinking positive.

Guess it was one of those things I needed right at the moment I read it!

I do think there is such a thing as being too optimistic, especially for first time mothers.

I feel that being seriously surprised by the level of pain seriously affected my ability to deal with it. And I was surprised because I had absorbed huge amounts of mind over matter literature, stuff about how most discomfort is due to interventions, etc. I actually feel that I was deceived.

I could not get past the art stuff :(

I didn't like it, either. Even though it said that worry was the work of pregnancy, it said elsewhere not to worry too much because that will make what you're worrying about happen. So should I worry or not?

Oh and painting and clay? Not a chance.

IEven though it said that worry was the work of pregnancy, it said elsewhere not to worry too much because that will make what you're worrying about happen. So should I worry or not?

Seriously, plus, didn't she ever watch Mr. Rodgers? He says you can't make scary things happen just by thinking about them. :lol

I dislike any book, class, train of thought that claims it can help me "birth better" or "more calmly". I am very vocal and violent when I'm in labor, and that ain't gonna change. :irked: No amount of incense, meditation, psychadelic hooey is going to help my pain. I REALLY wish this whole attitude of "women should be peaceful and quiet" during labor would die. Its almost like if you don't have some kind of zen birth that you did something wrong. F*** that. :irked:

I dislike any book, class, train of thought that claims it can help me "birth better" or "more calmly". I am very vocal and violent when I'm in labor, and that ain't gonna change. :irked: No amount of incense, meditation, psychadelic hooey is going to help my pain. I REALLY wish this whole attitude of "women should be peaceful and quiet" during labor would die. Its almost like if you don't have some kind of zen birth that you did something wrong. F*** that. :irked:

That's not the message I took away from that book at all. ITA about not liking books that are too perscriptive. I liked BFW because to me it was more about looking within yourself to find the way of birthing that is right for you rather than conforming to someone else's idea of what birth should be like.

When it comes to resources to help with birthing, I am not into SHOULDS, as in "you should/must read this book." I am for going with the resources that speak to you, and not worrying about the ones that don't.

I know other people who don't like BFW. My midwife is one person who told me it didn't speak to her. While I liked BFW, I didn't get into Bradley (didn't like their relaxation techniques) or the Henci Goer book (too scarey). I kind of think a lot of what appeals to you is determined by your learning style. I think more left-brained, analytic people might really like Henci Goer and more right-brained people might like Pam England, for example. I also think the Bradley materials are kind of visually-oriented, and I am more of a kinesthetic person, which may be why I didn't find them that helpful (I am talking about the language that is used in the relaxation exercises).

I didn't like it either. I found it hard to get into because it was too "out there" for me. While I agree that our experiences help make us who we are and shape how we will react in certain situations, I don't really have much of an 'artsy' side and am much more scientific (My degree is in Biology and I was a "lab rat" for 10 years). Knowing what my body is really doing and how to relax my body to allow it to do that work is what helps me the most. Which is why my favorite birth books are Ina May's "Guide to Childbirth" and the Sears Birth Book. I dunno, I guess if I need a reason for things...Cause and effect work much better with me than that fru fru stuff.

The way I look at childbirth and how to help my body do what it needs to better, is the same way I look at achieving physical goals when not pregnant as well. When not pregnant I love to run for excercise, and I notice that the more tense I am when I run the harder it is, the more I relax (especially my mouth and shoulders) the easier it is to breathe and the longer and faster I can run. Same thing with giving birth, the more I relax my body as a whole, the easier it is. Now that I understand that cause and effect relationship and the "letting go" part there is no fighing myself or my body. I wasn't able to "get" that from BFW..

Heather

I couldn't relate to about 75% of what was in the book. But I'm glad I read it as I did find some things that I could relate to. The best thing for me was the suggestion of the poster on the hospital door - loved that and ended up making one - on my computer, not very artsy.:wink

But yeah, I couldn't get into the art at all.

That's not the message I took away from that book at all. ITA about not liking books that are too perscriptive. I liked BFW because to me it was more about looking within yourself to find the way of birthing that is right for you rather than conforming to someone else's idea of what birth should be like.



Same Here.

I really liked this book.

I liked the worry part...the thinking through all the stuff that could happen and how you would deal with that. For me, I really don't want a section, but for odd reasons (I don't want people looking at my guts), so it was helpful to think through an entire scenario of what would happen IF I did need a section. I walked away calmer, which I like.

That's not the message I took away from that book at all. ITA about not liking books that are too perscriptive. I liked BFW because to me it was more about looking within yourself to find the way of birthing that is right for you rather than conforming to someone else's idea of what birth should be like.

I agree 100%. The idea that women do know how to give birth, and you need to listen to your own body to figure out how you need to do it. If that means screaming and shouting - go for it. If it means deep meditative concentration, then go for it.

Our birthing class was based on this book and we loved it. we did do the art stuff in class (but I'm artsy anyway), and it was very cool indeed. We had an excercise where we all had to draw how we pictured our birth would be. DH and I had almost identical pictures (we didn't see each other's picture before we were done with the exercise).

I stuck the art from the class up in the delivery room. It was a fantastic focal point for me and helped me remember some of what had come up in the class.

I didn't really like it either. I had to read it for my doula training and I didn't really find much practical information in there. We did some birth art in my doula class too and I couldn't get into it. I really didn't see how it was useful.

I didn't really enjoy it nor do i with many books because i think women try to "control" birth too much and are disappointed when things change. btw, i also don't like formal birth plans for the same reason. i think we are trying too hard!!!!

I liked it quite a lot, but think it is more useful for someone having a 2nd or 3rd (or more) birth and not so much for a first.

I am a huge BFW fan. It became more important to me the second time around, and healing from a traumatic first birth. I loved the birth art projects, and I still like to look back at my drawings.

I liked it quite a lot, but think it is more useful for someone having a 2nd or 3rd (or more) birth and not so much for a first.

This might be why I liked this book. True, this is my first birth, but I have way too many births in my head (I'm a hospital based midwife). I wanted to be able to get those births out of my head and focus on delivering MY baby, not the right way to do things, not the proper way, not the expected way... just MY way.

I didn't like the book when I first read it. But, I think Pam England is an amazing person. So I took the level one Mentor training from her. I think that she has something going on in person, that is hard to translate in books. I went back and re-read BFW after the workshop, and while I appreciated it slightly more, it still wasn't the book for me. But, I think one of the big messages is to imagine your scary, worst case scenario, and envision yourself coping with it. I think that Pam is the last person to want people to have a calm serene labor. Her labors certainly were not like that. She does an exercise with a labor fairy where you imagine that you are in labor and maybe you are breathing and moving around to cope with the sensations, but oops, up comes the labor fairy and sprinkles some labor dust on you, and all of a sudden you go from rating a five in pain to an eleven. Then how do you cope? What do you do? What do you give yourself permission to do at 11, that you wouldn't do at 5? And I think this is useful. I tend to be pretty quiet and off in lala land while laboring, but this exercise made me consider that I might need to scream profanities if my labor got really intense, or whatever.

And you know what, I didn't get that message out of reading the book, but it was the bulk of what I walked away with after the workshop. My friend and I are going to start teaching CBE classes this fall, and while I will be incorporating some elements from Pam, I definitely won't make BFW required reading.

Just thought I'd share my perspective....

I actually did the birth art. But the book itself really depressed me. For some reason, it made me scared of birth.

Oh no, you're not alone. :) When the search comes back up, do a search for the terms under my name and you'll find that I've been ranting about it for a long time. :lol I can say a lot of good things about the book -- it was an important book in my birth journey -- but I take huge issue with her ideas about the role of pain in birth and especially that obnoxious quote from a midwife talking about snuffing the candles and telling the mother to get down to work. :eyesroll

I took issue with her saying how unimaginably bad labor pain is, and how it doesn't compare to anything else, although she does say it is distinct from "suffering" because it is intermittent, finite, etc. Maybe it's that bad to people who have been healthy their whole lives, or who don't have enough support, but I found that it was exactly equivalent to the worst pain I had ever felt when sick. Completely imaginable.

I wish there was more honoring, not necessarily from that book, but just in general, of women's fear of labor and giving birth. To allow that it's not necessarily going to go away even if you're comfortable with your choice for where to birth and who to birth with. And that even if you and your attendants and your partner do everything right and all goes well, it could be really terrifying or traumatic, even. Instead we get this attitude of conquering, like if you're really prepared for it it won't be scary unless you or someone else does something wrong. I feel like a lot of postpartum emotional issues might be exacerbated by women feeling ashamed of having been afraid. I know that's the case for me and I'm sure I'm not alone.

I've heard a saying, "it's not brave if you aren't scared" and I think that applies to birth, too. It's a big deal. Yes, it's natural. Yes we're made to do it. Yes, however, we have ancestral memories of how often it has brought us right to the threshold of life and death. It's something of a heroic undertaking.

I think it's SO not the book for everyone - if you don't find art interesting or fun, it ain't for you! And I have several quibbles with the book (although I understand the sentiment, the bit where the midwife is like "oh, this is too zen" irks me), but mostly I like it. Is it perfect? Nope. Is there some good stuff in there? Yup.

I don't think it usually is damaging to the pregnant woman's psyche (unlike the WTE crap, which basically should only be read by 22nd century researchers who are looking into why 20/21st century birth sucked so much), so my opinion on the book is just take what you like and leave the rest - and if you don't like any of it, that's just fine!

Our last birth was attended by a BFW-based midwife, so I dutifully read it, but I generally found it too woo-woo for me. DH too. His caveat when we were searching for a midwife to attend our upcoming birth: "Find one who doesn't make us DRAW anything!!"

PS. Just saw your sig file, Arwyn - CONGRATS!!

Thanks! :love

Midwives shouldn't MAKE you do anything like that... Maybe say "hey, I do this extra special thing [bfw art, massage, photography, whatever] are you interested?" But it shouldn't be required... sheesh!

I didn't especially like it b/c she wasn't "out there" far enough :lol I'm not a big fan of the epidural stance/next "best" thing. The mw comment about blowing out the candles annoyed the heck outta me, too. Also some of the parents-night-out stuff wasn't in line w/my personal beliefs. I've not read it in about 4 yrs, so I'm not exactly up-to-date.

I've heard a saying, "it's not brave if you aren't scared" and I think that applies to birth, too. It's a big deal. Yes, it's natural. Yes we're made to do it..

But I am not scared and didn't like the implication that I should be.

Lately the only person I've been able to read on birth is Michel Odent. Nothing else has really been resonating with me.

Now Odent rubs me wrong, too, with his insistance that even having a supportive male partner there is hindering! :lol

There's just no one I completely agree with. :shrug And that's ok!

that's the beauty of the world: there's somethin for every birther.

from patterned breathing to having your partner be the "coach" to working through fears thru artwork, to singing to signing up for a cesarean.

it's all good and whatever resonates with you, obviously, is what is going to work.

deep inside, we all have what it takes to birth. we just get so many screwed up messages and brainwashing about our bodies that it's usually THAT that we need to work through.

Now Odent rubs me wrong, too, with his insistance that even having a supportive male partner there is hindering! :lol

There's just no one I completely agree with. :shrug And that's ok!

semantics here, but he doesn't insist it. in fact, in most of the births he attends, fathers are very much involved. (although re-reading that chapter after this post I can see how one can come away with the idea that he believes all fathers are a hindrance...I just happen to have read some articles and heard some talks in which he elaborates a bit more on the topic....)

he is just trying to bring up a differing viewpoint: that men think VERY differently than women (they're very linear generally) and they bring alot of their own fears to birth. I think, as a midwife, I've seen this so much (to the point of men forbidding their partners to have homebirths or freaking out that things "take too long"). But, the same could be true for grandmothers, too. I don't think it's restricted to gender, but men are horrifically left out of the truth of birthing (we women talk birth ALOT, men don't really do this much, if at all) and what they come away with is normal: they love their partners, they don't know much about birth and what they have heard scares them, they want the best for their babies, they think more linearly (like the medical model), etc.

Then again, come to think of it, many MIDWIVES (read: women) do the same thing in terms of hindering a birth because of their presence, beliefs about birth, fears and intervention. So, there ya go!

Some men don't fit the generalization and I've definitely seen women who really need their partners. To me, it's more about what the MOTHER and FATHER both want and what they envision for their birth. If you'd rather have your dog there than your partner, go for it. I just think that there are some men who don't really want to be at the birth, but are afraid to look like losers if they say so.

(My partner's birth was the most difficult birth I've ever been to and possibly the closest I can come to really understanding what a father goes through...it was so hard emotionally!)

I think it's a valid viewpoint, even if we consider it for just 1/3 of what he's saying. Then again, it could be that he's really one of the few voices out there that really shifted my way of being a midwife in a very complete way. So, maybe it's my bias. :)

:)

did any of this make sense? i just finished a margarita (hey, I'm not on call!) and I'm thinking that I can't type, make sense and drink at the same time. ok. I'm done now.

p.s.: Michel Odent is not my lover. I gain nothing from gettin' his back.

I think there are definitely some situations where what Odent says about male partners is true, and I'm glad he has the guts to say it--it's certainly not a popular opinion.

Just had to chime in and say that this book really helped me. I read some of your posts about the fear thing and I don't really remember reading that, so it obviously wasn't a big deal to me. When pregnant with my 2nd, and trying to recover from a birth that was very traumatic and not to far in the past, I had a lot of healing to do. I think when you do art things come out in the art that you haven't quite admitted to yourself in your conscious mind. I found this book to be helpful for my healing. I am also one who wants to DO something to prepare and doing a hands-on type workbook was beneficial to me. (I liked school way too much LOL!)

That being said, I found Ina Mae's Guide to Childbirth to be the most helpful in actual labor because it gave me so much confidence and stories to draw on and think about when your so "in yourself." I also read the Sears book and didn't really like the layout and a lot of the ideas. It seemed to be so much more medical (probably because he's a dr. duh!)

I also REALLY liked the section in BFW that was for the husband/partner/labor attendee to read. I made DH read that and he picked up tips that really helped me. (like let the MW help me and stay away)

Just wanted to put in my 2c I like art :lol

A lot of it didn't appeal to me at all, but the exercises were interesting. I got the book too late to really indoctrinate myself into them though. Some of the art stuff was appealing, in fact I did a drawing of my feelings about the pregnancy that actually opened up a lot of pain and horrid feelings....stuff I'd been harboring for a while I guess....and eventually I felt better once I got through them. I did get SOME use out of it I guess but for my next pregnancy I'll definitely work more on the pain relief exercises earlier.

I've only ever transported two clients for pain relief....anyone want to guess what kind of childbirth classes they took? You got it. Birthing from Within.

I've only ever transported two clients for pain relief....anyone want to guess what kind of childbirth classes they took? You got it. Birthing from Within.
So what, if any, childbirth classes do you recommend? (Just out of curiousity.)

And, having noted the correlation, any theories as to why it exists?

I'm not a mw or a doula, but I wouldn't recommend any *classes* for birthing. Am I a heretic :hide:?

I would highly, highly recommend reading a lot more of Michel Odent, and he's definitely not my lover either :lol

IME, each of us gathers and processes new information differently. Some of us are readers; others need to actually see things for themselves. Others listen...there are lots of ways to get to understanding. It can be a long road to rid ourselves of cultural garbage surrounding birth, but I believe it's really important to be with other mothers (and those who truly believe in birth and your body) to listen to their stories, ideas, feelings, etc. in an effort to decipher what feels right for you, what deeply resonates within your heart.

Sorry for the ramble.

I think that the decision to take classes or not is very individual. I like any classes that present lots of 'tools' for coping with labor and for helping it be a powerful/empowered experience for the family. I am not as fond of 'method' classes, but I do love the ones that present all the 'methods' as available resources. I've seen good classes under all kinds of titles.

The numbers in my 'sample' of BfW class ladies who transported are too small to really draw a conclusion. It could just be the certain class they took that left them unprepared or maybe flat out lied to about the intensity of labor, or maybe it was just a fluke.

Oh man. I finally got my hands on this book because so many people said I should read it. But just flipping though it has left me sobbing. (my son's birth 2+ years again ended up as a c/s.) I'll try to read more of it but I don't know.

I do think there is such a thing as being too optimistic, especially for first time mothers.

I feel that being seriously surprised by the level of pain seriously affected my ability to deal with it. And I was surprised because I had absorbed huge amounts of mind over matter literature, stuff about how most discomfort is due to interventions, etc. I actually feel that I was deceived.

ITA with this. I took a hypnobirthing class where they told us NOT to read any other books or take any other courses--because we might read things that would promote fear and that would cause pain. I did everything "right" with my hypnobirthing coursework and preparation; I labored at a freestanding birth center with fairly low-intervention midwives where epidurals were not even an option; and labor still HURT. I was not scared AT ALL going into it, but after the pain built up and up for for many hours I got pretty damn scared that it was never going to end. Although the relaxation techniques helped a great deal in early labor, I think I would have been much better served to have had some other ideas/approaches for dealing with the pain when I couldn't just "visualize" it away anymore. From what I can tell, the person who totally zens out during labor, like in the hypnobirthing videos they show in class, is more the exception than the rule.

I'm not a mw or a doula, but I wouldn't recommend any *classes* for birthing. Am I a heretic :hide:?



Me neither really. My midwife would be shocked I am sure :lol

I know some things I can do or my husband can do to help, like using the birthing ball, massages,warm water....I feel prepared enough :shy

I think classes give women (and partners!) false hope around birth being painless. I think that most classes are geared towards ways to defend yourself from hospital staff. Most men, I would venture, don't really get much out of childbirth classes. I'm not a huge fan of them, as I feel it separates women from what they intuitively already know. They just need to be encouraged to tap into their own bodies and the relationship with their babies.

I'm not a fan of Bradley because I think lying down and closing your eyes and viola! You'll have a painless birth - is so misleading. I like Bradley for their tons of paperwork and articles on the dangers of medication, induction, episiotomy, etc.

There is a vast difference, to me, in preparing a couple to do battle with the hospital and telling them to breathe a certain way or "do this" to ease pain. We feel pain all the time in our life. I think we know how to breathe and women find their own coping mechanism in labor.

To focus solely on easing pain is totally keeping women in that place of getting away from the true origin of the discomfort: they are not being victimized by their body, but their body is working powerfully to birth their BABY.

I'm a fan of letting women find their own way, but so many couples feel like they NEED childbirth classes. It's like a rite of passage. It's deeply ingrained in our culture.

From the moment of conception, women already have what they need. Partners only need to be there as they are daily for the mother. They don't need to "coach" or "direct" - just be present and open.

In my experience, the only "method" that seems to have left women feeling upset, unprepared and a bit duped is hypnobirthing. I think it takes a special kind of person to really make it work - and these are women that have typically meditated before and find that an easy place to go to during labor. Most women are led to believe it will create a painless birth. They complain afterwards about having put all their faith in that one method and then feeling like they didn't "do it right" because they were in pain.

Another non-childbirth class type of person here.

I looked at the all, read some materials from each kind, and realized I would do better in the moment, not having any expectations.

That was my biggest issue with BFW, and most other books. (I only made it all the way thru Ina May's Guide to Childbirth and Sears' Birth Book.) They setup an expectation of what will happen, and how. I stuck with pure mechanics, so I could recognize things that were happening, but attempted to not bring any of the weird baggage some of those books attach to birth.

For me it worked well. I didn't know that having a baby come out fully face up was unusual, or harder, until after the fact. I just did what needed to be done at the time.

:wave Yeah, it was too art-based for me to relate. I never got through it.

That was me, too. I bought it because it came highly recommended, but I think I'll sell it on amazon marketplace or something. I imagine it's great if that's your bent, but it's not mine - too "artsy-fartsy" as my grandma would say!

:p

I'm a fan of letting women find their own way, but so many couples feel like they NEED childbirth classes. It's like a rite of passage. It's deeply ingrained in our culture.

It was actually a "requirement" with the birth center I went to that first -time parents take a birthing class. They stated this in their literature and during the course of prenatal visits they followed up with wanting to know where you were signed up for classes.

I read through it during my third pregnancy. And really, the only thing that resonated with me was the little blurb about Lucy. She's a 3 foot tall life-like model of an early human who lived 3 million years ago in Africa. The author speaks of thinking about Lucy as an ancient mother, not knowing how or when she conceived, not being preoccupied with how many centimeters her fundal height was measuring, how many grams of protein she was eating or when her due date was. She lived moment to moment, and when she went into labor she didn't know how many centimeters dialated she was, whether her due date was a week away or two weeks past and she just responded to her body's messages and birthed her baby.
I keep coming back to this again and again and just think about how much I would love to have that.

I liked it quite a lot, but think it is more useful for someone having a 2nd or 3rd (or more) birth and not so much for a first.


I found it much more helpful for my first baby than for my second.