atheist/agnostic tribe

[mz_libbie22]

Post removed by administrator.

[Ms. Mom]

Welcome to the new atheist tribe!

We have removed the last tribe thread because of multiple User Agreement violations. I deleted the OPs post above so I could use the same URL (this way everyone could find the thread easier). I could not remove the post completely or it would delete the whole thread.

The atheist tribe is great place to discuss many issues:


Handling holidays
Raising your kids in an atheist home
Talking with family and friends
You’re atheist, your spouse is not


If you would like to talk about religious or spiritual issues, please post those discussions in our Religious Studies forum. Keep in mind that Mothering respects all members’ rights to practice religions that feel right for them, just as we respect the rights of members not to follow or believe in religions or common beliefs.

Please remember the stated purpose of the Finding Your Tribe forum (http://www.mothering.com/discussions/showthread.php?t=593592):
Though Finding Your Tribe was originally opened to help parents find each other based on their location we have welcomed tribe threads for parents of a like-minded path to meet and chit chat with one another. However, such threads should not take a focus of discussion for a topic that is hosted in an existing forum at MDC.

A natural course of chit chat discussion might carry you into discussing your daily lives and sharing events and struggles. But focused discussion of a parenting topic, a breastfeeding issue or problem, an activist or political issue, a religious concern or belief, just to name a few, should go to the appropriate forum for discussion with the larger MDC community. If you have any question in this regard feel free to check with the moderators before posting. Should you post or thread not be appropriate for FYT on this basis it may be moved to the appropriate forum.

To that end, please feel free to start a new thread that discusses everyday life and general chat about life when one is an atheist. Some examples of this would be how to handle holidays, how to explain differences in religious beliefs to children, how to interact with relatives. Focused religious discussion, including critical posts about other belief systems belong in religious studies.

Focused religious discussion, including critical posts about other belief systems belong in religious studies. (http://www.mothering.com/discussions/forumdisplay.php?f=265) All posts in religious studies must adhere both to the User Agreement (http://www.mothering.com/mdc/mdc_useragreement.html) and the religious studies guidelines (http://www.mothering.com/discussions/showthread.php?t=132812).

Please note that there is no place on MDC where it is acceptable to speak disrespectfully of another faith. The User Agreement states:
We do not tolerate any type of discrimination in the discussions, including but not limited to racism, heterosexism, classism, religious bigotry, or discrimination toward the disabled. We will not host discussions that involve explicit sexual references and are cautious about discussions on volatile topics such as abortion, religion, and race.
and
Do not post in a disrespectful, defamatory, adversarial, baiting, harassing, offensive, insultingly sarcastic or otherwise improper manner, toward a member or other individual, including casting of suspicion upon a person, invasion of privacy, humiliation, demeaning criticism, name-calling, personal attack, or in any way which violates the law.

If you have any questions about this, please PM one of the FYT mods or admins rather than discussing it in a thread.

[leftcoastmama]

Well shoot. Now I can't even remember who all was in the tribe before. Anyone up for a roll call? No need to comment at length, just say "here."

[malibusunny]

here!

Where were we? I don't remember.

[DaughterOfKali]

Here!

[atom'smama]

Hi all,
I don't post much but wanted to say Hi from another atheist. I guess I don't have enough posts to enter the religious studies forum.
Beth

[Ms. Mom]

After discussions with many members we decided to remove some posts that were User Agreement violations and return this thread again. We would like the discussion to continue here and ask that members keep the discussion on topic.

If you have any questions or concerns, you are welcome to pm a forum moderator or administrator and we will be happy to discuss it with you.

[mamakay]

I'm here!

[prairiemommy]

And I'm here. Not much else to say. :innocent

[lalaland42]

:wave I wasn't in the tribe before but I came looking for a place to discuss my most recent problem. Can't do it tonight, I'm too tired.

[boingo82]

Here, not much else to say. :thumb

[Hatteras Gal]

I'm here. So, what are all my atheist sisters doing today? :) We have to go town. The fridge that came with this house is ridiculously small so we're going to check out someone selling a fridge for $40. To have as a second fridge. I'd love a nice new big stainless steel fridge but there's no $$ right now for that big of a purchase.

Have a great day!

[orangecanoe]

Subbing...we're UUs, but this thread speaks to me...

So in the 'everyday life as an atheist' :eyesroll vein....

Is anyone in the thick of vacation bible school country? How do you respond when that topic comes up on the playground. We live in a more conservative area and my kids aren't school age yet, but this has come up quite a few times. I toe the line between wanting to be polite and being more honest, given how well the 'not a christian' thing goes over on a message board. I'm not guessing that RL is any more tactful.

[Hatteras Gal]

Subbing...we're UUs, but this thread speaks to me...

So in the 'everyday life as an atheist' :eyesroll vein....

Is anyone in the thick of vacation bible school country? How do you respond when that topic comes up on the playground. We live in a more conservative area and my kids aren't school age yet, but this has come up quite a few times. I toe the line between wanting to be polite and being more honest, given how well the 'not a christian' thing goes over on a message board. I'm not guessing that RL is any more tactful.

I'm on my way out the door, but I'll be back later...

[ilovejeff]

I'm here! Before the thread got taken down, there was a discussion started about what to teach your kids to say when someone sneezes (as many of our tribe are understandably uncomfortable with "god bless you.") I didn't get a chance to read all the responses and I need ideas!

Mods, I hope this is ok to post here and not the reason the thread got removed in the first place. :o

[lasciate]

Gesundheit. Basically, it's German for 'good health'. I never heard anyone say 'bless you' after a sneeze until I was in my teens.

[Hatteras Gal]

Subbing...we're UUs, but this thread speaks to me...

So in the 'everyday life as an atheist' :eyesroll vein....

Is anyone in the thick of vacation bible school country? How do you respond when that topic comes up on the playground. We live in a more conservative area and my kids aren't school age yet, but this has come up quite a few times. I toe the line between wanting to be polite and being more honest, given how well the 'not a christian' thing goes over on a message board. I'm not guessing that RL is any more tactful.


Well, this year, a person I don't even know drove up while we were out playing and invited my kids (by way of asking me) to VBS for the following week. She went into a little of what goes on and said it was being run at the Lutheran church but all the churches in town were doing it together. We have 3 churches, Lutheran, Methodist, and Catholic in a town of about 300. I was caught a bit off guard so I thanked her and said we'd think about it. And I seriously thought about it. We haven't lived here long and I thought it might be a good way for my kids to meet other kids their age that live around here. But in the end I decided starting a play group might be the better way to accomplish that.

If I was at the playground and a parent asked me if my kids were going to VBS, I could go a number of ways on that one. A simple "no" is probably my gut reaction. If the person persisted, I might say "we're not religious" or "my husband had a bad VBS experience, he doesn't wan our kids going." Which is true.

[leftcoastmama]

Gesundheit. Basically, it's German for 'good health'. I never heard anyone say 'bless you' after a sneeze until I was in my teens.

I say "salud" which is Spanish for health, or I say "bleh-shoe" which is what I thought people were saying when they blessed me when I was little. :lol

[california_mom]

I'm here... I can't believe we're back. Naked, but back.

As for sneezing, I say "Bless you." Heck, I figger I can bless anyone I want! I've got the power :wink

[Bad Horse]

As for sneezing, I say "Bless you." Heck, I figger I can bless anyone I want! I've got the power :wink

That's what I do, too! I figger the same thing :p

[orangebird]

Here with nothing to say (anymore) :wave

And welcome. Fun doing roll call, it is.

[odenata]

Here!

[siobhang]

Is anyone in the thick of vacation bible school country? How do you respond when that topic comes up on the playground. We live in a more conservative area and my kids aren't school age yet, but this has come up quite a few times.

this is one reason we joined a UU church. We actually go to UU "vacation church camp" (suusi - southeastern unitarian universalist summer institute) - leaving in a week.

In addition to the community and religious education and all the other stuff we get from our church, we also get (some) protection from all the churchy types in our area trying to convert my kids...

[Lemon Juice]

I'm here! went to join in on the last thread and it was locked (pm'd the mod and got the answer as to why)

Glad it's back!! :D

Btw...we also say "salud" or "bless you", mostly salud tho (thought about this when my first was a baby...and stuck w/ it all these years)


Oh..I'm also about to change my user name...so I'll update the new one when I do :thumb

[voicegrrl]

Glad to find this thread. I have been having similar experiences with VBS, etc. Sometimes it feels like everyone in our neighborhood and our Irish Dance community is involved in church activities. I don't know why I always have that weird feeling inside when someone mentions it. Partly it's because my oldest had a lot of pressure from friends at school last year about not going to church and we had many discussions way past bedtime because she was so stressed about it. I wish I'd looked for a thread like this for support when all of that was going on. We live in the south and it seems like when you meet someone the first thing they do is ask you where you go to church. I already feel judged half the time because I have large tattoos on my arms. Then I give the whole "we don't go to church" statement. I just don't want my daughters to be treated badly for our decisions, KWIM?

[malibusunny]

I say "bless you" because it's culturally ingrained. I am always a little startled when someone says "god bless you" because I don't think of it that way.

Nick is too young for VBS (I think?) but we did have to deal with why he doesn't go to Sunday school, since all the other kids his age at daycare not only go to Sunday school weekly but go to the same church. I blamed our DJ company for keeping us up too late on Saturday nights. :lol: I'm always afraid to say "because god is pretend" when it might affect my kid.

[voicegrrl]

You have a DJ business? I'm a DJ, the kind on the radio, but I used to do some weddings, dances, etc when I was younger. I usually am on the air on Sunday so I have used that as an excuse before ;-)

[orangecanoe]

Thanks for the VBS thoughts. I also have gotten excluded from conversations at gym class as well.

Voicegrrl---what you said about not wanted your kids to be treated badly for your decisions resonated.

more to say, but small people thwart me...

[lalaland42]

About the VBS thing. If it is an evangelist at the door, "no thank you we are atheists and don't plan on converting". If it is someone at playgroup, "no, we have enough going on, thanks."

Now that I dyed my hair purple and told everyone I know IRL we are atheists, VBS comes up surprisingly little. :lol

[prairiemommy]

The two things:

Sneezing: We say "Bless you" but we mean it in a general, "Hope you're okay"-type way. I'm not creative enough to come up with something and "Gesundheit" always made me feel weird growing up b/c I came from a German family and felt like everyone was critiquing my pronunciation if I used it.

VBS: I just say, "No." but we're not in a thick bible belt here. We have a lot of "Christmas Christians" in our area that do VBS b/c their children's friends are doing it etc.... Quite often VBS is a one-day thing even so it's really not a big deal. We do know one family that will occasionally invite us to some function at their church (the un-Halloween party) but we just politely decline. It was hard when my kids were little because they thought they were being invited to a Halloween party and were upset when they found out I said no (the invites would inevitably come home with them from school). So now I just explain - "No, it's a religious instead-of-Halloween party" and they're okay.

Just an aside - the mom from the family that gives us invites once asked me, "So how *did* you name your children? They are such religious names!" (they are pretty traditional names which yes, just happen to be found in the bible). Sigh. I was a little taken aback because I felt like she was saying, "How did you manage to get that right at least?" but I answered, "Oh, we just liked the sound of them.". :blah

More wordy than I imagined. Sorry! :o

[expat-mama]

I say "GROSS!"
:lol
just kiddin'- I don't really say anything because I don't like it when people say "bless you" to me...
I dislike the whole idea of "blessing". I guess I could say "oh, I hope you're not getting sick" or something along those lines...but I don't. Is that rude?

I don't feel neglected when people say nothing when I sneeze :shrug
People don't say "bless you" when you cough, burp, fart or hiccup...what's so special about sneezing?

[Sharlla]

Here

[darkpear]

Here, FWIW...

We're a 'gesundheit' house here too.

[Lemon Juice]

I say "GROSS!"
:lol
just kiddin'- I don't really say anything because I don't like it when people say "bless you" to me...
I dislike the whole idea of "blessing". I guess I could say "oh, I hope you're not getting sick" or something along those lines...but I don't. Is that rude?

I don't feel neglected when people say nothing when I sneeze :shrug
People don't say "bless you" when you cough, burp, fart or hiccup...what's so special about sneezing?

"GROSS" :laugh:

There are a few origins as of why people say "bless you". (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God_bless_you)I grew up knowing the one about your heart stopping when you sneeze, and saying bless you to bring you back, or something like that. There is also one about it being the first sign of the plague and people saying "bless you" to help stop the disease from spreading. :scratch I know. :eyesroll

[california_mom]

There is also one about it being the first sign of the plague and people saying "bless you" to help stop the disease from spreading. :scratch I know. :eyesroll

That's what i was gonna say.

[Lemon Juice]

That's what i was gonna say.

Great minds think alike...and all that :wink

[moon.mom]

I'm here.

We are UU- so I'll probably just cruise those threads.
Or other non-religious websites.

In "Parenting Beyond Belief"- one of the stories mentions that they say
"THAT'S FUNNY!" when someone sneezes.

(It's a great book- BTW- for raising children without religion. We attend a UU church- and if you don't know-being atheist is perfectly okay in most UU churches.)

VBS.....
OMG- I was raised going to it.
As I mentioned- we are UU- and our "church camp" is this next week.
I'm so excited!!! The authors of the book, "Thank God for Evolution" (http://thankgodforevolution.com/) are going to be the theme speakers. Not exactly sure- seems like he uses a lot of religious language. Should be interesting anyway.
We can always just go swimming or take naps if we don't like his stuff. :D

[cjanelles]

I'm glad to see this thread and the explanation herein for why it was removed and returned.

I'm having some atheist family issues myself, mainly being that I'm about to have to go back to work (I've been a SAHM) and the only quality daycare around here is actually in a church up the street from my house.

We don't vax and we're atheists and I'm going to have to put my 1 yr old in a church daycare. There's going to have to be some dishonesty going on here because we can only claim religious or medical exemption for not vaxing...I'm a little stressed about the whole thing, honestly.

As for sneezing? We say to the baby, "Scat cat!" and to everyone else (also atheist or agnostic) we say "You sneezed."

[jenners26]

I'm here too! Even though I've been lurking forever, I'm trying hard to post more! As far as sneezing...we just say bless you. That's what we said in my religious household growing up, and now, I'm too lazy to think of anything else!

[orangebird]

I usually say bless you.

I found out it is offensive to say god bless you in utah, so it works out good. Though I have no problem saying god bless you, what do I care, but now, living here it's just "bless you".

[Lemon Juice]

We don't vax and we're atheists and I'm going to have to put my 1 yr old in a church daycare. There's going to have to be some dishonesty going on here because we can only claim religious or medical exemption for not vaxing...I'm a little stressed about the whole thing, honestly.


Our state is the same way too :irked: We homeschool so we can get away w/ all of it for 2 of my babes..but we want to do co op preschool for our 4 yr old and will have to "lie" about it too. Wtf? It's so ridiculous that MY personal beliefs don't count...but a religion picking beliefs for me do! It feels like it's okay in the state's eyes that the religion keeps your child from being vaxed...but the parent?! Heck no...that's just crazy, apparently :dizzy:

[orangebird]

:)

Howz everyone doing?

[Lemon Juice]

Good here..but I killed the thread :bag:


:laugh:

[Bad Horse]

Good!

How you doin', orangebird? :p

[cjanelles]

I'm here...again.

It's been pretty stressful in my family.

My big kids start school on Wednesday (2 days from now). I've got one going into high school and one going into middle school.

My little one doesn't have to start daycare yet because I still haven't gotten a job.

My husband has been out of work for 8 weeks and his disability benefits have been all screwed up, to the point that when we have gotten a paycheck, it's been less than half his base pay...and more often than not, we've not gotten a paycheck at all. As it is, he has gotten so frustrated with the whole system that he's going back to work tomorrow, against doctor's orders, and we won't be getting a check this week at all...because his doctor's orders said "NO WORK," but apparently, the disability people don't think that's sufficient, even with all the supporting documentation. I guess they know better than the doctor, huh?

Anyway, sometimes I wish I had some sort of faith so that I could find comfort in the belief that god was going to take care of me and everything was going to be fine.

[california_mom]

Good here..but I killed the thread :bag:

:laugh:

Yea. We just can't bring you anywhere! :wink

[casemnor]

Hi!

Subbing...

I usually say "bless you" just out of habit....I don't put much stock into it, and like another poster...too lazy to think of anything else. It's more a reflexive response than anything.

As for the VBS question, as well as the "what church do you guys go to?"...I just say we don't go to church and that we're atheists. I've gotten all sorts of reactions (neutral to disgusted). Generally this is from people I hardly know, and given their response....I decide whether or not I want to know them or not.

:)

[orangebird]

Good here..but I killed the thread :bag:


:laugh:

You didn't kill the thread silly. Just isn't much to talk about these days.

Let's see.

Here we go, what about podcasts. Anyone here listen to podcasts? I have a ton I subscribe to. If anyone is into that sort of thing I would love to share.

[orangebird]

Oh, cjanelles' post reminds me. We have school starting up here too.

And that's fine.

But what sux is what got sprang on me last month. My hours are being cut and I have to start looking for another job. I hate interviews and really suck at them. When they ask those stock questions I say the dumbest things. Plus, next weekend we are going rafting for 4 days, and then in september we wanted to go to our friends' wedding in CA. I told DP to cancel the wedding trip plans until I find a job. But the rafting thing is already planned and not something I can back out of. We are fortunate and have big savings so I have been dragging my feet, but I really need to get on the ball and apply for a job. I don't want to squander away savings just so I can sit on my ass all week online playing around. I do need to look for a job. BOO!

[almadianna]

oh hi!!!!!!!!!
yayyy thread.

[Bad Horse]

Oh, Almadianna! A local mama that's on this thread, woohoo!!
I'm near Ikea, I'd meant to answer your question at some point on what area of town I was in, so I figure now is good cause I lost track of where it was you asked me :p

I'll send you a pm!

Sorry you have to look for another job, orangebird. Ugh.

Oh!!! I just got a text letting us know dh's paycheck just got deposited. :joy: We've been BROKE for a week. Yay, human moneys are good! dh is going to go get us mocha chillers at Sonic :love Not being broke any more is a good thing!

I'm glad you have savings, orangebird. Living paycheck to paycheck sucks. One of these days we'll be able to get ahead enough to save. I look forward to living like a grown up eventually. :eyesroll

[almadianna]

i live close to the ikea!! a little further down i-10 around 6 minutes away actually.
yayyy houston!
and yayyy not being broke.

[moon.mom]

Anyway, sometimes I wish I had some sort of faith so that I could find comfort in the belief that god was going to take care of me and everything was going to be fine.

I think I know how you feel.

It's difficult to find your "salvation"

My dh and I consider ourselves Humanist-
Secular Humanism or Religious Humanism... (along with Unitarian Universalist)

It's also not as "scarey" or intimidating a word for people in the bible belt-
(atheist vs. humanist) they seem to cock their heads funny and say, "Oh- Ok- I've never heard of that..."

hang in there
keep faith in yourself- you aren't alone

joy

[cjanelles]

I think I know how you feel.

It's difficult to find your "salvation"

My dh and I consider ourselves Humanist-
Secular Humanism or Religious Humanism... (along with Unitarian Universalist)

It's also not as "scarey" or intimidating a word for people in the bible belt-
(atheist vs. humanist) they seem to cock their heads funny and say, "Oh- Ok- I've never heard of that..."

hang in there
keep faith in yourself- you aren't alone

joy


I've not done much reading on Humanism, but I figure it probably fits my core beliefs, just based on the name. LOL

I live in the Deep South and people around here get really freaked out if you admit you're an atheist or agnostic. It's like advertising that you're doing Black Mass in your backyard and sacrificing goats every Saturday night. :D

[straighthaircurly]

I'm here! Before the thread got taken down, there was a discussion started about what to teach your kids to say when someone sneezes (as many of our tribe are understandably uncomfortable with "god bless you.") I didn't get a chance to read all the responses and I need ideas!

Mods, I hope this is ok to post here and not the reason the thread got removed in the first place. :o

We say "Salud" (SA-lood), Spanish for health.

[jaidymama]

Hello, I'm new at this thread. But I find in my wanderings that I belong here more in the last few years than, well, before that.....

Anyways, a friend of mine sent me this silly poll that MSNBC is taking about the words "in god we trust" on our money. While I'm probably pretty indifferent to the whole thing I thought I would at least share it with you all in case you wanted to vote one way or another on it. http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/10103521/

Besides that I'm interested to hear about your experiences and share mine as I make my way through parenting 101-revised... that is different from that of most people in my family and those I grew up with.

[jaidymama]

Our stance on sneezing...

my dh grew up not being allowed to say it because of his church rules. I grew up saying it off the cuff. So he enjoys being able to say it, although when I think of it, we don't hold a religious sentiment to it... rather a polite phrase in our repertoire.

As for politely declining... I like simply saying you have have other plans. And I think being able to say or putting a label on what you do believe (like saying you're humanist) goes a lot farther toward peace than talking about perhaps what you don't believe. However, I'm a big fan of focusing on the what is rather than what is not's in life...

[atom'smama]

I am reading the book parenting beyond belief right now and i highly recommend it. It is different essays on parenting without god. There is an essay by Penn Gillett and he talks about saying "bless you" when someone sneezes. In his house they say "that's funny", and he's right it is funny when someone sneezes. I usually just don't make a comment one way or the other.

[beansmama]

Our state is the same way too :irked: We homeschool so we can get away w/ all of it for 2 of my babes..but we want to do co op preschool for our 4 yr old and will have to "lie" about it too. Wtf? It's so ridiculous that MY personal beliefs don't count...but a religion picking beliefs for me do! It feels like it's okay in the state's eyes that the religion keeps your child from being vaxed...but the parent?! Heck no...that's just crazy, apparently :dizzy:

Well, i'm in oregon - which has the same "religious beliefs" exemption. I was told that "beliefs" was pretty broad - as is "religious". Basically, here anyway, anything you BELIEVE is considered your religious beliefs.

[beansmama]

I just wanted to introduce myself...

I'm a new a born again atheist :P - as of well, a couple weeks ago. Raised Christian my whole life (25 years...woot!).

I'm not "out of the closet" yet...as i'm still living with my parents (divorce issues, etc) and they are very religious. I'm not ready for the Sh*t to hit the fan!

I have a 4 year old DD who i've been teaching about God/Jesus to since she was a baby...how do i deal with my sudden switch in "beliefs"? I don't want to crush her dreams. She thinks Jesus is very real. Prays (with gramma, not me)...goes to church sometimes (also with gramma...).

Sofar what i've been doing is NOTHING. I'd like her to be able to make up her own mind when she's old enough to. I don't want to sway her one way or the other, really. So should i just keep up the "nothing"...eh, i really just don't know *what* exactly i'm doing, lol.

[jaidymama]

I just wanted to introduce myself...

I'm a new a born again atheist :P - as of well, a couple weeks ago. Raised Christian my whole life (25 years...woot!).

I'm not "out of the closet" yet...as i'm still living with my parents (divorce issues, etc) and they are very religious. I'm not ready for the Sh*t to hit the fan!

I have a 4 year old DD who i've been teaching about God/Jesus to since she was a baby...how do i deal with my sudden switch in "beliefs"? I don't want to crush her dreams. She thinks Jesus is very real. Prays (with gramma, not me)...goes to church sometimes (also with gramma...).

Sofar what i've been doing is NOTHING. I'd like her to be able to make up her own mind when she's old enough to. I don't want to sway her one way or the other, really. So should i just keep up the "nothing"...eh, i really just don't know *what* exactly i'm doing, lol.

Honestly, I don't think you would have to do much of anything right now for your daughter even though you don't agree with those beliefs anymore. The thing I always consider is how many people are raised in a religious structure, and then as adults find something that fits them better. Plus consider that you are on your belief journey, and that your daughter is on hers. Perhaps when you move to your own home someday that the religious focus that you once had with her fill fade on its own. For me it comes down to saying that this is a choice I am making for myself, and that I respect other people's choices that they make for themselves (even if it makes my skin crawl). And from my perspective beliefs are not etched in stone, they are dynamic and change with your life... so for your dd I wouldn't think it's something that will stick with her forever... and if you're recently divorced and she's used to the Christian dynamic perhaps she's finding comfort in it... that's not necessarily a bad thing... the comfort part, that is.

Just my 2 cents.

[siobhang]

I'm a new a born again atheist :P - as of well, a couple weeks ago. Raised Christian my whole life (25 years...woot!).

I am curious, what happened a couple of weeks ago? Was it a gradual thing? or was there some sort of event that made your beliefs clear?

Me, I grew up learning about Jesus and God and so forth, and then as I started going to church more and more, I would realize that I just didn't agree with things I was being told to say I believed (the Nicene Creed, etc). So I would just not say that part of the service. Then I found myself more and more uncomfortable by things said in the service - things that I categorically did not believe to be literally true - to the point where it just felt so false to be attending.

So I didn't attend any church for a good long while. I considered myself agnostic, mainly because I find being agnostic to be "safer" both socially and emotionally. Being an out and out atheist is so difficult in the US, that it took me a long time to "go there", as it were.

My dh helped. he is an atheist and the more we talked, the more I realized that really, truly, I am too.

it was a gradual process and only in the last few years (around age 35 or so), did I feel comfortable stating and knowing that I am an atheist.

[beansmama]

Honestly, I don't think you would have to do much of anything right now for your daughter even though you don't agree with those beliefs anymore. The thing I always consider is how many people are raised in a religious structure, and then as adults find something that fits them better. Plus consider that you are on your belief journey, and that your daughter is on hers. Perhaps when you move to your own home someday that the religious focus that you once had with her fill fade on its own. For me it comes down to saying that this is a choice I am making for myself, and that I respect other people's choices that they make for themselves (even if it makes my skin crawl). And from my perspective beliefs are not etched in stone, they are dynamic and change with your life... so for your dd I wouldn't think it's something that will stick with her forever... and if you're recently divorced and she's used to the Christian dynamic perhaps she's finding comfort in it... that's not necessarily a bad thing... the comfort part, that is.

Just my 2 cents.

Thanks for your 2 cents :)
I totally agree with what you are saying. Personally, i just quit bringing up religion and egging it on. If she wants to go to church with gramma then i'm not going to stop her...but i wont pressure her into either.

And yes, skin crawling has been expirienced :P

[beansmama]

I am curious, what happened a couple of weeks ago? Was it a gradual thing? or was there some sort of event that made your beliefs clear?

Me, I grew up learning about Jesus and God and so forth, and then as I started going to church more and more, I would realize that I just didn't agree with things I was being told to say I believed (the Nicene Creed, etc). So I would just not say that part of the service. Then I found myself more and more uncomfortable by things said in the service - things that I categorically did not believe to be literally true - to the point where it just felt so false to be attending.

So I didn't attend any church for a good long while. I considered myself agnostic, mainly because I find being agnostic to be "safer" both socially and emotionally. Being an out and out atheist is so difficult in the US, that it took me a long time to "go there", as it were.

My dh helped. he is an atheist and the more we talked, the more I realized that really, truly, I am too.

it was a gradual process and only in the last few years (around age 35 or so), did I feel comfortable stating and knowing that I am an atheist.

My boyfriend happened, haha.
We've known eachother since April and he's the first atheist i've ever met (that i know of anyway). He used to be mormon (even went on his mission) and just "lost his faith" a couple of years ago. Honestly, i really couldn't fathom how someone could lose their faith after being so "hardcore". It made no sense to me at all.

He didn't pressure me or anything, but i did like to talk about faith/religion with him. I felt like he knew where i was coming from because he's been super relgious...but i didn't understand him at all. So i asked to borrow a book of his (Losing faith in faith). Read it.

I have always been a pretty liberal christian. Well, mostly anyway, i've definately had my "greater than thou" periods of time (as i like to call 'em) - but for the most part i kinda just did my own thing. I wasn't very strict.

At first the book really offended me, but then it started making a lot of sense. I guess i never really read the Bible or payed attention. When i would read it i'd only read new testament. In short there is a LOT of offensive things in there. The God of the Bible is NOT the God i learned about in church. I no longer found anything loving about him. Just scary. I read another book (Born again skeptics), had debates with my bf...did some internet research, etc. etc.

I just came to conclude that it is very unlikely that a God exists.

So in total it took me about 2 months to go from "I'm a christian" to "I'm an atheist". And really, i was claiming i was agnostic for a couple weeks there, or actually just referring to myself as a "nothing"...but i'm reading "The God Delusion" and in it the author lists the "levels" (theist-atheist) and reading the descriptions i realized i'm definately an atheist.

That's my story :)

[mudmama]

new here. and subbing.

I grew up going to a Christian church every Sunday, youth group, church camp, all that stuff, till I was 16. I knew it wasn't for me. but only recently, I'm 33, am I searching for my true self and have had the guts to let people know where i stand. "No we don't go to church."

Little story, cute; my dd refused a sticker being handed out at a parade that said "Jesus loves you." She took it, read it, and handed it right back to the christian clown without saying a word. so proud.

We live in a very religious community. My dd goes to public school. last yr the kids told her she would go to hell b/c she told them she didn't believe in God. She says it to grandma too. Which breaks my moms heart. Ouch. I dont' think dd understands what hell is to christians, so she didnt cry about it, but she did ask some questions and feel un-accepted with her friends.

I'm off to find these books youre all talking about, read and research.
Yeah for this thread!

[Bad Horse]

Oh, beansmama, I had to go back to make sure, but I remembered your thread from when you & your bf started dating :D

Welcome to the dark side! We have candy! :joy:

[christifav]

New here, too.

I'll try to keep the intro short.

Grew up christian. Active member of Unity church throughout my adult life. Married an atheist who never once pressured me or tried to "talk me out" of religion. When I tried to talk about it with him, he simply said, "I just don't believe in god." He never, ever wanted to be responsible for my losing faith.

I prayed literally every day for my family. then in Nov 06 dh was hit by a car and lost his left foot. I began questioning. 18 months later, I finally accepted atheism. The book "Atheist Universe" sealed the deal for me. Now, thinking about just how small Earth and Humans are in the grand scheme of things, I don't see how any Earthly religions could possibly be right.

I guess I'm a "mild" atheist b/c I do not know if there is a supernatural being responsible for this whole universe we live in, but I certainly do not think there is a god watching my every move and deciding what my punishment or reward may be in a future life.

I say "bleh-shoe" when someone sneezes. We also say "j___ c___" a lot when we're upset, so I wouldn't exactly call us a model family.:o

[avivaelona]

It's so ridiculous that MY personal beliefs don't count...but a religion picking beliefs for me do! It feels like it's okay in the state's eyes that the religion keeps your child from being vaxed...but the parent?! Heck no...that's just crazy, apparently

I'm so glad I found this thread because I'm feeling so much like this...have to turn in the "religious exemption" tomorrow because of ONE vaccine that I don't want DS to get yet because of the poor science behind the state recommending it. No one seems to get how distasteful this is to me and DH, that somehow belief in good science means we are religious. Or what if we just believed that the substances used to make the vaccine were morally wrong? Do I have to be religious to have a moral objection? The one thing I have objections to on religious grounds is being asked to defend my choices for my child on religious grounds. It makes me angry.

Oh I say Geshundheit because I grew up with it. But I have no objection to saying "bless you"

I have a question too, what do you all do about teaching your children about what god and churches and such are? I have a curious three year old, and he just loves bell towers and bells and clocks so he really tends to notice church buildings and town halls and of course he figured out one day that I was saying there was a difference between a church and a town hall, and asked me what the difference was, and I had no idea what to tell him.

Do most of you not celebrate holidays? We don't carry our atheism that far and are a mixed background couple so we celebrate both the Jewish Holidays and the Major christian ones, I don't really have trouble explaining the holidays without talking about the religious parts but I'm not looking forward to explaining what "mommy is Jewish, Daddy grew up Quaker, Nana is Episcopalian" means when he's so young. How have you talked about religion with your own young children? (or is that an off limits topic?)

[siobhang]

I have a question too, what do you all do about teaching your children about what god and churches and such are? I have a curious three year old, and he just loves bell towers and bells and clocks so he really tends to notice church buildings and town halls and of course he figured out one day that I was saying there was a difference between a church and a town hall, and asked me what the difference was, and I had no idea what to tell him.

well, we go to a UU church (me and the boys - my dh does not), so my kids know what a church is.

Curious to hear what those who do not attend a church do.

[Mommoo]

New here, just found you! I will introduce with more detail at another time. It's bed time for me! ;) Happy to have found this thread.

Tricia

[jaidymama]

I think of what to teach my son about other people's beliefs the same I would think of any kind of belief... that families make different choices and believe different things. Honestly, some of the most beautiful buildings are churches so I think it's important to honor the the beauty of a building and perhaps admire someone's dedication to creating it. (that might be more than what I would say, perhaps going overboard... but in general I would want to be nonjudgmental and find the positive in a situation.) I tell my ds that they are churches where people meet, sing songs, tell stories and pray. Even if I don't choose this for myself or my family, I do know that many people find great comfort from their religious activities.

Bottomline, to me it would be a simple message from an educational perspective... rather than bringing any frustrating baggage or personal criticism of Christianity... I believe strongly in letting a child come to their own opinions.

[Monarchgrrl]

Hi! New and subbing.

Not-so-short-intro:

Mom was Wiccan (high priestess) and pretty much raised us that way, without forcing it. THAT was an interesting life growing up in the bible belt. :lol

I'm athiest/agnostic. Not 100% sure which yet. I believe in reincarnation, if I have to believe in something, but not a god. I don't really ever think about religion or spirituality. I just know no ones knows the "truth" and that we can't really know til we know, ya know? :wink

My DW is Catholic, more in traditions/culture than practicing. I'm not sure what it's called but she's one of those liberal catholics, not old school. She's very very private about her religion and it hasn't ever caused any issues with us. We've even decided to tell our future kids about all religions and let them know what each of us believes, but we won't be bringing them up in any way, with any beliefs whatsoever.

(Side note about us first dating):
We had been getting to know each other and really really liked each other and wanted something serious and then she came out...as Catholic! I was like :dropjaw Then I told her what I was. :laugh: She had never wanted to date and non-Catholic and I had "vowed" to never date a religious person again. Well, life sure is funny sometimes!! I used to be very not tolerant of "believers" because of so many bad experiences, but she had to come along and give me some tolerance. :thumb

We say salud for sneezes.

Anyway, I'm glad to join this tribe! :joy:

[bjorker]

Hi everyone. I have a question for you all.

I'm wondering what you all think and feel about explaining or mentioning death to a young child. We recently had a death in the family. It's not one that effects myself or my dd (3.5 years) too terribly much in terms of not seeing this person anymore, however it does effect my mother a great deal, as it was her brother. And we've been going through and sorting his stuff, making various plans, etc. My mom gave her a few trains that she found in his apartment. Thus, my dd knows something is up, and mentions him. Tonight she asked me where he was, and when his Birthday was. I realised that I needed to tell her something, but was having a hard time figuring out exactly what to say. I looked online for appropriate ideas, but of course everything is all god-ly. I did find some things, like this post/comments in agnosticmom.com (http://www.agnosticmom.com/2006/06/16/how-do-you-talk-to-your-kids-about-death/), which was interesting, but I'd love to hear what you all have to say.

This is mostly for my own curiosity at this point. I said something very simple and to-the-point to dd when she asked where he was, and she moved onto the next subject. It is very important to me to just tell her the truth as much as I can, but she's still a bit young to understand too much. Luckily, it wasn't really an issue.

Any of you have experience with this? What did you say? What do you think you would say? How does this change with the age of your child/ren?

[mudmama]

My uncle recently passed away too. Explaining it to my 7 yo was simple. Told her what happened in simple terms; he died from an awful disease called cancer that people can get and we don't really know what happens to his spirit. This is what some people believe and this is what mama believes and this is what happens to his body, etc. She's at the age were I think she can grasp the idea. My 3 yo, I didn't explain anything. They both saw him getting sick, going to the hospital, mama crying. "Why are you crying, mama?" "B/c I'll miss uncle R and I'm sorry he has to be in pain." The kids have teddy bears of his to remember him and we named them after his first and last names.

[jaidymama]

We have had many deaths in our family since ds has been alive really with my grandma dying a few months after he was born. Really he's had to come with us to the funerals/receptions as we have had to travel for each. Although the first one we had a friend of the family hold him while we were in the service... Anyways, the most recent was well 3 funerals in the last year... Starting with my grandpa who my ds had gotten to know. He was old and died from pneumonia or something.

We told ds that when our bodies get old and worn out they stop working. Ds was not at the funeral part, but did go to the gravesite and the reception following. The 2nd funeral we went to the gravesite and the reception and the third funeral, we actually went to the viewing of the body.... I wasn't going to bring him in but my aunt & uncle were asking to see him. So dh and ds came in and stood near the back of the room... Although my ds did see a boy sleeping in a box. I did not tell him that the boy was dead. Ds and Dh came to the reception of that funeral. Mostly all those times I felt like the grief was so huge, and I needed to have time to tend to my own grief without trying to be strong for my ds.

Basically all we've ever told him is that sometimes people die when their bodies stop working. Then I guess we haven't really talked about the rest of it in terms of beliefs. Since we don't really know what happens or believe in any particular thing that happens after death, we just keep it to the superficial observations. I guess we do say that some people are really sad because they won't get to see that person anymore. But we can think of that person and remember the fun we had together. I guess I don't lead a very spiritual life regardless of beliefs or non beliefs. Somehow I personally don't have the answer to what happens after we're buried or cremated... but I do like to think that my grandparents are supporting me in spirit... To me, I'm not concerned about what happens after. Maybe that will change.

But for kids, it depends on what they are ready to know and what you are prepared to tell them. I don't believe in keeping them in the dark, yet I think simple is best.

[jaidymama]

Parenting in a world where the politicians are almost required to hold some kind of "God" faith... How does that fit into our family lives? Perhaps this is just my stretch at commenting on how many people referenced the bible during the DMC... and I can imagine it would be similar at the RNC... I'm not offended by it... I think that there is some wisdom in the bible, but that's a different story... there are lots of religious books with wisdom...

Ok, so really though what about kids who do not claim a god? Do they live a life in the shadows? Not coming out so to speak? I remember that father in ??? California who fought to get the pledge changed, and what an uproar they caused for believers. So if a child claims similar nonbeliefs as parents or by himself/herself what room is there in the world?

[christifav]

Parenting in a world where the politicians are almost required to hold some kind of "God" faith... How does that fit into our family lives? Perhaps this is just my stretch at commenting on how many people referenced the bible during the DMC... and I can imagine it would be similar at the RNC... I'm not offended by it... I think that there is some wisdom in the bible, but that's a different story... there are lots of religious books with wisdom...

Ok, so really though what about kids who do not claim a god? Do they live a life in the shadows? Not coming out so to speak? I remember that father in ??? California who fought to get the pledge changed, and what an uproar they caused for believers. So if a child claims similar nonbeliefs as parents or by himself/herself what room is there in the world?

I am peeved by the references to religion in the current election campaign. Personally, I want my politicians to get their guidance from the Constitution, not the bible. I probably can't say any more about why I have such distaste for that (and most other) books of faith without violating the UA.

I did just watch an ABC news story (not sure how old it was) about a girl in OK who was ostracized from her school after she refused to say the lord's prayer at a basketball game. It is disgusting what some of the believers did to this poor teenager. I wouldn't mind religion if it was ALL about love and compassion, but it gets perverted in the minds of many.

[annettemarie]

Hi ladies. I wanted to ask if you would rather stay here in FYT or move to Spirituality. As long as you're discussing cultural issues rather than issues of faith (including critiques of other belief systems), you're welcome to stay here in FYT. But if you would rather move to Spirituality, that's OK too. Just discuss it amongst yourselves and let me know which would suit you better. Thanks! :)

[Monarchgrrl]

Hi ladies. I wanted to ask if you would rather stay here in FYT or move to Spirituality. As long as you're discussing cultural issues rather than issues of faith (including critiques of other belief systems), you're welcome to stay here in FYT. But if you would rather move to Spirituality, that's OK too. Just discuss it amongst yourselves and let me know which would suit you better. Thanks! :)

Doesn't matter to me, either way. I'll follow it. So, if we moved to Spirituality, we would have the option of discussing issues of faith (or our lack-of) or critiques of faiths? Although less people would probably join or see us there. Up to ya'll! :)

[almadianna]

well do we belong there?
i mean many atheists describe atheism as a lack of spirituality...

i dont want to get into an isuue as to what it means or not i am just thinking aloud here...

[ferretfan]

hi :)

can i join?

i grew up in a very secular environment in the UK, although my primary school (read: grade) was church of england, as are most, so we said prayers and sang hymns every day, and celebrated the christian holidays. i learnt all about god and jesus and all that other fun stuff. but as i grew my interest turned to the dark side of it, the devil, demons, and hell, and i managed to scare my mum pretty good with all my carryings on :innocent then as i grew more i realized i was an atheist

i now live in the US with catholic raised dh (seems everyone in these parts are catholic) who is now best described as agnostic. we didnt baptise our dd and the inlaws about flipped :eyesroll and because we dont vax either MILs comment was "you'd better pray that nothing happens to that baby". ummmm, yah, because babies always go to hell when they're not baptised.....

dd is a few weeks shy of 3. i am wondering how she's going to react to the prayers that dh's family say when we all have (rare) meals together. she's at that age now where she's curious about things.

we have addressed the death issue with her. last year one of our ferrets died and we told her that it went to live in the sky. she was only just two at the time and i was at a loss of what to say to her when she noticed her pet wasn't there any more. i didnt' want to pull the 'heaven' card atall, but didn't want to say anything that might be scary to her little mind.

she still talks about that ferret, and now we've elaborated our explanation of it's whereabouts to stating that some people believe that when you die you go to a place called heaven, and some people think that you come back as another animal or person, and some people think it's just like being asleep forever. we also told her that noone knows for sure because noone comes back from the dead, and dead is forever. i didnt really want to focus on my beliefs just yet. i dont have problem with her learning about different belief systems, but i want to do it in a very objective manner and i dont think she's ready yet.

we do say 'bless you' for a sneeze (or a fart :o). i never really gave it much thought, it's habit.

:D

[siobhang]

Hi ladies. I wanted to ask if you would rather stay here in FYT or move to Spirituality. As long as you're discussing cultural issues rather than issues of faith (including critiques of other belief systems), you're welcome to stay here in FYT. But if you would rather move to Spirituality, that's OK too. Just discuss it amongst yourselves and let me know which would suit you better. Thanks! :)

can we have two threads? One in spirituality for questions on spiritual atheism/atheism and religion, etc. and here for more day-to-day discussions?

[Ms. Mom]

can we have two threads? One in spirituality for questions on spiritual atheism/atheism and religion, etc. and here for more day-to-day discussions?
Yes, because your looking for two different areas to focus on. Feel free to start a thread in Spirituality.

[siobhang]

Yes, because your looking for two different areas to focus on. Feel free to start a thread in Spirituality.

there was one - I'll go bump it.

Or maybe it was in religious studies...

[siobhang]

bumped the "Can We Talk About Atheism/Agnosticism (http://www.mothering.com/discussions/showthread.php?p=12109569#post12109569)?" thread in religious studies for those interested.

[pookel]

Subbing.

[Mommoo]

Subbing also.

I'll introduce myself in detail now.

I was raised Roman Catholic and remember when I was 13 I found a little card in a friend's room that said something about being christian. I said "hey, I thought you were catholic" she responded "I am, you're christian too!" I was like, no way man, I've never heard that before.

I remember another time when I was around 10 and I told my mother that I wasn't sure if I believed in god, and if I did, I didn't like him.

So I basically turned away from the church until I was 18 and an au-pair in Switzerland. I guess you could say I became a born again Christian. I met a group of a Christian au-pairs and I eventually started going to bible study with them. They were neat girls and I was so easily influenced! I just wanted friends and didn't really have a personal stance on anything in life.
I had a physical and emotional experience during a conversation about Jesus and I thought, wow, I felt the holy spirit! So I did the non-denominational-evangelical thing for a bit. Totally alienated myself from my punk-rock friends back home, and my family thought I had been brainwashed. I became a bible thumper. Trying to share my joyous knowledge with everyone. Wanting everyone I loved to see the truth.

Fast forward a few years and I fell in love with an agnostic. We both tried to make sense of our different beliefs. He was super into Carlos Castaneda stuff and I was all about Jesus. ;) Eventually we read Ishmael by Daniel Quinn. We were both all over it, but I was still trying to make it fit my Christian mold. Eventually it broke the mold and I was released from my state of ignorance. I mean, I was the kind of Christian who believed that Jesus died for my sins and that only through believing in him and giving myself to him could I be freed from my sins. That he did rise from the dead and all of the other stuff the bible says.

So, now I find myself in a relationship with my DP, who was raised Lutheran by a father who is a Lutheran Pastor. We essentially have the same beliefs, but DP is really into the whole community of church, and message of Jesus thing.

Nice to meet you all!! I look forward to reading the thread over in spirituality.

[avivaelona]

personally I'm just much more interested in the cultural aspects and how to live peaceably and with mutual respect among those of other religious belief, I think atheism can encompass a wide variety of spiritualities and for me those are mostly private anyway. I think two threads are a good idea but I'd be interested in this one mostly I think (well we'll see) .

To the previous poster who suggested just talking about other religions with respect, to my three year old, thanks for the attempt but I think what I'm getting at is much more simple..like literally how to explain what a church building is for, or what people even mean when they say "god" to a little person who asks questions that are hard to answer at his vocabularly level. My son is very verbal for his age so I can talk to him about things but he still only has a three year olds knowledge of the world. So it isn't that he is coming to me saying "Jimmy says he's christian, who is Jesus?" its that he says "mommy what's a "Church"" and I have no idea how to answer him because all of the words you would use to describe what a church is for are just as foreign to him as the word Church is.

As far as death, when our kitty died we told him that the part of her that made her be alive was gone, even though everything else was stil there she wouldn't be able to walk or eat or do anything anymore. So he started asking lots of questions about what part it was, and asked if she still had every part of her body. So we added that there was something in people or animals that makes them be alive, and that some people think that is just energy and other people think that there is something called a soul or spirit that is a seperate part of them and goes somewhere else when you die. That some people think it goes to a place and other people think it just dissolves into the ground or the air. He said that he has a seperate part of him that is a spirit and it lives right next to his brain in his head, and pointed to a very specific spot on his head, so for him he's got it figured out :)

[jaidymama]

personally I'm just much more interested in the cultural aspects and how to live peaceably and with mutual respect among those of other religious belief, I think atheism can encompass a wide variety of spiritualities and for me those are mostly private anyway. I think two threads are a good idea but I'd be interested in this one mostly I think (well we'll see) .

To the previous poster who suggested just talking about other religions with respect, to my three year old, thanks for the attempt but I think what I'm getting at is much more simple..like literally how to explain what a church building is for, or what people even mean when they say "god" to a little person who asks questions that are hard to answer at his vocabularly level. My son is very verbal for his age so I can talk to him about things but he still only has a three year olds knowledge of the world. So it isn't that he is coming to me saying "Jimmy says he's christian, who is Jesus?" its that he says "mommy what's a "Church"" and I have no idea how to answer him because all of the words you would use to describe what a church is for are just as foreign to him as the word Church is.

As far as death, when our kitty died we told him that the part of her that made her be alive was gone, even though everything else was stil there she wouldn't be able to walk or eat or do anything anymore. So he started asking lots of questions about what part it was, and asked if she still had every part of her body. So we added that there was something in people or animals that makes them be alive, and that some people think that is just energy and other people think that there is something called a soul or spirit that is a seperate part of them and goes somewhere else when you die. That some people think it goes to a place and other people think it just dissolves into the ground or the air. He said that he has a seperate part of him that is a spirit and it lives right next to his brain in his head, and pointed to a very specific spot on his head, so for him he's got it figured out :)

So I always try to keep it boiled down to something that makes sense to my child. Like the bare bones (sans rhetoric)

here's what one website said the definition of these are...
Church: a building for public Christian worship.
God: the one Supreme Being, the creator and ruler of the universe.

My take on these:
Church: a building where people meet to talk, sing and pray.
God: someone who some people [Christians] believe made the world--all the animals, plants and people. It's not someone we can see, hear or touch.
Jesus: a man who lived a long time ago. There are books written about him and what he did in his life. He is important to people who are Christians; they believe he was their leader.

Meal prayers with family. I don't say anything to my ds except ask him to be quiet. He hasn't asked what it is. If it comes up I will tell him it's their way of saying thanks for the food.

[jaidymama]

I think there is merit in having a separate thread to discuss actual theology of atheism/agnosticism. Whereas I think a thread for parenting a child with these beliefs would and has been useful. I know in our life we have gone a nonconventional route as far as both of our families are concerned... so I find I'm in uncharted waters. In some way I feel relieved that there's a group of moms online whom I can ask questions to about these unique parenting challenges that might and do arise.

Not to mention these are things that I wouldn't receive support about from family and friends. And it's not like there's an atheist church where everyone meets up IRL and we would automatically know those people have similar beliefs.

For me, this thread is a nice resource. And I will visit the spirituality one if I feel the need to delve into a different kind of discussion.

[siobhang]

My definitions I have used with my kids - I am an anthropologist so that definitely influences my definitions.

Church: a community of like minded people who gather to talk, celebrate, commiserate, etc. The building they gather in is also called a church - it can also be called a temple or other word. We go to church - our UU church.

God: the sense that there is something bigger and more important than us as individuals. We sometimes ask God for help, when we need something beyond what we feel we have internally. Sometimes God is portrayed as a person who can talk to you or who is watching your actions, but those are just stories. God is an idea, not a thing or person.

Jesus: a teacher who lived a long time ago who said many wise and important things to help us live our lives better. There are many stories told about Jesus, some of which are true and some of which aren't, which talk about his life and his good deeds.

I want to get across the idea that God is a metaphor for many important ideas and feelings we humans all share. God does not need to be literally true, and Jesus does not need to be the Christ, in order for some of the concepts and emotions in religion to be valid and helpful to us as ethical beings.

In addition, dh and I need standard definitions that resonate with our kids when they hear "God bless America" or "Thank you, Jesus!", which they do hear a lot ('tis an election season, after all...).

I look forward to hearing what others say.

[jaidymama]

My definitions I have used with my kids - I am an anthropologist so that definitely influences my definitions.

Church: a community of like minded people who gather to talk, celebrate, commiserate, etc. The building they gather in is also called a church - it can also be called a temple or other word. We go to church - our UU church.

God: the sense that there is something bigger and more important than us as individuals. We sometimes ask God for help, when we need something beyond what we feel we have internally. Sometimes God is portrayed as a person who can talk to you or who is watching your actions, but those are just stories. God is an idea, not a thing or person.

Jesus: a teacher who lived a long time ago who said many wise and important things to help us live our lives better. There are many stories told about Jesus, some of which are true and some of which aren't, which talk about his life and his good deeds.

I want to get across the idea that God is a metaphor for many important ideas and feelings we humans all share. God does not need to be literally true, and Jesus does not need to be the Christ, in order for some of the concepts and emotions in religion to be valid and helpful to us as ethical beings.

In addition, dh and I need standard definitions that resonate with our kids when they hear "God bless America" or "Thank you, Jesus!", which they do hear a lot ('tis an election season, after all...).

I look forward to hearing what others say.

I really like these, thanks!

[spruce]

.

[KatWrangler]

I am here!

[starlein26]

:wave I'm still here!

[expat-mama]

Anyone seen the trailers for "Religulus"???

If not search for it on Youtube. It's documentary on religion from an atheists point of view...or something along those lines, but as it's hosted by Bill Mahr and directed by the guy who directed "Borat", it'll be pretty funny.
I think it's coming out this October and IMHO it looks like it will be highly entertaining!:D

[KMK_Mama]

Anyone seen the trailers for "Religulus"???

If not search for it on Youtube. It's documentary on religion from an atheists point of view...or something along those lines, but as it's hosted by Bill Mahr and directed by the guy who directed "Borat", it'll be pretty funny.
I think it's coming out this October and IMHO it looks like it will be highly entertaining!:D

I can't wait to see this! It comes out on Friday. :D

[starlein26]

Anyone seen the trailers for "Religulus"???

If not search for it on Youtube. It's documentary on religion from an atheists point of view...or something along those lines, but as it's hosted by Bill Mahr and directed by the guy who directed "Borat", it'll be pretty funny.
I think it's coming out this October and IMHO it looks like it will be highly entertaining!:D

Wow...sounds HIGHLY promising in the hilarious department.

[voicegrrl]

Saturday. Aww man...best movie of the year, maybe my life. It was so good. Can't wait to buy it when it's out on DVD. Can't wait till everyone here sees it!

[jaidymama]

Charlie Rose interviewed them last night on his show. Very interesting all that he has to say about the movie, and his experience. As much as it is supposed to be funny and entertaining, I think he really was trying to say something here. He also made commentary about the current presidential elections, and that for the last ??? many presidents it was almost a "requirement" to talk about that aspect of your life to get that voting base behind you.

He also commented about the European Culture is different from our own. that 50% of Italy claims to be atheist.

[marieangela]

Wanted to check in say I'm still here.
I would like to go see Religulus, too. I somehow found a great atheist, liberal friend through a mainstream mom's group and it's been great to be able to openly discuss politics (which indeed have somehow become quite rapped up in religion) with someone other than my family. We're going to try and take our pregnant selves out to see that movie sometime next week.

[voicegrrl]

There is definitely a message in the movie. Yes, I laughed non-stop, but the message is very clear. As an atheist, it was the first time I've seen a movie relating to religion that spoke everything I believe. The whole time I kept going "yeah that" and "that's what I think, too." Sometimes it was like Bill Mahar was taking the words right out of my head. Very reaffirming.

[expat-mama]

ooh! I can't wait to see it!
The reviews I read a little while ago were pretty negative. But that's to be expected. It seems these days it's impossible to be even the least bit critical or questioning of mainstream religion in the media or in general society without being attacked. :angry
DH and I were watching a re-run episode of Seinfeld the other day. In the show, Elaine was dating Putty and borrowed his car. She was surprised to find that all his radio stations were set to Christian stations and confronted him about it. Throughout the show there were funny pokes and jokes (nothing derogatory or hateful or anything like that, of course) about religious people AND non-religious people in the usual Seinfeld style. DH and I were commenting that this show aired originally about 10 years ago and if it were to air for the first time NOW I think people would be up in arms. It's interesting how things have changed.

[newbie_mary]

Just found this thread! yay!

I read somewhere recently that "spirituality" is a sense of connection with something -- could be other people, or nature, or the "divine" or whatever. I really liked that definition. I always was uncomfortable when people talked about spirituality, because I thought that it implied religion and so I thought I didn't have any, but this new definition made me realize that I am spiritual after all!

I told DS (2.5) that a church is a place where people go to meet, hear stories, and sing together. Not sure what I'll say when that isn't enough. I'm thinking of joining the UU church, though, because their religious education program seems to do a great job of introducing kids to all of the various ideas out there. I think he's too young to care much right now, but maybe when he gets a little older we'll try it out.

[APMomOfKimmyN-Maya]

:hola:

[sunnysideup]

Hi all. I was on the old thread. Glad to find the new one.

[Heathen Mama]

Hi freethinking mamas.

I'm the world's biggest Bill Maher fan- I know a few people who run "in his circle" and I'm too starstruck to even ask for an introduction! I haven't seen Religulous yet- I can't leave the little one just yet.

I'm happy to be here.

[pajamajes]

I'm subbing. I've been an Atheist for about a year now; hardcore Christian before that. I'm interested in seeing how other people deal with the Atheist life, so to speak, especially in the "buy-bull" belt.

[jaidymama]

We saw Religulous this weekend, and it was different from what I was expecting. I think overall I liked it well enough, but there were a couple things that almost bothered me. Mostly I thought it would be funnier. There were funny parts, but really it seemed serious and almost angry/disgruntled. There were times when I thought Bill M went a little to far to antagonize someone he was interviewing--not all of the time, just a couple interviews. Also, it seemed to be highly edited, so I hope the interviews weren't over edited to enhance or create something that wasn't there. I was glad he was asking the questions, and bringing these ideas into "mainstream-ish" media. Perhaps some of his choices were to also make it entertaining, as well as a "documentary."

[expat-mama]

Hey all
I haven't seen Religulous yet BUT I have watched some documentaries by Richard Dawkins that are great- you can see them on YouTube:
http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=X2epvSAGuLc
He is a British scientist and is very driven to promote reason in opposition to religion. Watch and tell me what you think!

Also, I watched this lecture on YouTube that Sam Harris gave at the NY Society for Ethical Culture. It's REALLY good much better than the Dawkins stuff- and I want to read his book now. http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=qCS1twX2i6s
I like lectures, but if you don't just bear through the monotony of one guy talking for an hour and listen to his great ideas and arguments!
Watch and tell me what you think! :innocent
There are maybe 6 or 7 parts- the link is to the first part and you can find the rest of it on youtube.

I've also been reading a lot about humanism lately and have been happy to discover that I really ascribe to humanistic beliefs in so many ways. I like the humanistic parents' quote "Our children are beyond belief." :wink
I think humanists have some great ideas and methods for parents and families to approach morals, ethics, and beliefs. It's interesting stuff.

[Hatteras Gal]

Just popping in to say Hi! Had a great chat with a friend the other week and we talked about our religious beliefs. I thought she knew mine and I assumed I knew hers. Turns out we're both on the same page. It's nice to have someone IRL (besides my dh) who feels the same way I do.

[jaidymama]

One point of view that Religulous puts out there is that if all these people are expecting the story in Revelations to actually happen then maybe they would be less likely to do something to stop it... (ie. it's normal) Where as look around us, the world has been warring and stealing and vandalising for centuries. I don't think current times are worse off, except that there is the A-bomb. which is a pretty big exception ;)

So all that to say that I want to be part of something that is about love, making the planet a better and safer place... And of course depending on your twisted sense of humor there are probably millions of groups that say that is what they are about! I have heard a little about humanism, and also tend to agree.

In case you haven't seen Religulous, it pretty much confronts all the absurdities of different religions/beliefs. And it presents counter arguments and other factual information... For instance, how many of you knew that the story of a virgin birth is FAR from an original story. Now, who's to say why someone picked this up and ran with it... But I would doubt many Christians know this. And it's interesting what gets perpetuated again and again to children.

On a side note, did any of you see the senate race with Elizabeth Dole? Where she accused her opponent of being a supporter of Godless Americans? And the opponent made an advertisement saying she believed in God and was a sunday school teacher... Ugh!

Even though an African American won the white house, I think there still remains heavy discrimination in this country. I suppose we should just be so lucky that we're note beheaded for it....

[AmandaGRB]

Hi everyone! I just found this thread and wanted to say HI! I am still trying to figure out where I fit in with all this. But, I need some advice so I hope I am in the right place. I have come to the conclusion that I am at the very least agnostic and possibly atheist. It is hard to get over the label after growing up in the "Bible belt" and all that goes with that.

Anyway, we (my DH, 7 yo DS and myself) attended a church for about a year. It has been almost 2 years since we quit going. We had gone off and on for the first couple of years of DS's life, didn't go for a couple, went every Sunday for a year, then haven't been now for about 2. Clear as mud yet? All that to say, DS has been in Sunday school for about a year of his short life. But, apparently it was long enough. How do I undo what has been done? We (ds and I) were talking about Darwin the other day and he tells me he doesn't believe it, that God made everything. I asked him why he thought that and he starts telling me things that were said during Sunday school and how they told him if he didn't believe everything in the Bible he would be in big trouble with God and be punished.

I don't want to just run over him and try to force him to believe what I do, but I also don't want to reinforce what was taught in SS (based on fear). He was flipping through the cartoon channels the other day and came across this cartoon about different Saints. He watched some of it and came and asked me about it and said he really believed it and wanted to learn more. I am at a loss as to what to do. Can anyone help?

Amanda

[malibusunny]

I honestly don't think we can. I don't even know how to begin having this conversation without violating the UA in some way.

(am I the only person who reads "UA" as "urinalysis" instead of "user agreement?")

[expat-mama]

I honestly don't think we can. I don't even know how to begin having this conversation without violating the UA in some way.

I'm not sure we would be violating the UA as long as we weren't being speaking in a disrespectful way about religion or another member. That's a really tough situation. Maybe you could start slow with some science books for kids about evolution, dinosaurs, stuff like that if he is interested. Approach things from a different angle without talking about what you believe about religion or god. Maybe after a while you could tell your son what you believe about how the world came to be and that you don't believe that you or anyone will be punished for having different beliefs. Maybe there are other ways to slowly expose him to new ideas. If he is interested in things like saints and bible stories, you could encourage his interest while reinforcing that they are stories- you could even mix in a few books about greek myths and gods, native american creation stories etc., and explain how you think they are all nice stories. Fear can run deep though and it might take him a while to get over it. But a year of sunday school is only one year- he is still young so yes, that's a big portion of his life. But you have many years to come to teach him how you understand things and for him to use all the information to make his own decisions (not based on fear!) about what to believe. Best of luck.

[malibusunny]

I guess my concern (with the UA) is that the way I talk about religion to my child is bound to offend someone. I tell him things like "God is just pretend, like Santa Clause." We've talked about why you don't tell people Santa isn't real. We've talked about why you don't tell people that God isn't real, too. When he gets older, I'll deal with it differently, but for right now, it's pretty much the same thing.

[marieangela]

Speaking of what we tell our children about god, I haven't told mine anything yet. They are almost 6 and 3 1/2. I mentioned something to my dh the other night about the idea that maybe when they ask we can tell them that the bible is a story and god is a character/idea that some people think is real. Dh thinks that isn't the right thing to say, but isn't sure how we should approach it. I'd appreciate hearing other people's approaches.

Along those lines, it just generally seems hard to figure out what to say when we have opinions and ways of viewing things that would likely offend most of our children's friends and their families. My older son recently learned about Veteran's Day in school. He and my younger son are now both saying that when they get older they can fight in a war. I've been trying to tell them that I hope there won't be a war for them to fight in and that although many people in dh's family are veterans, I don't believe that war and armed services are the best answer for anything. And that I hope when they get older and understand it better, they will feel the same way. It is tough.

[expat-mama]

I guess my concern (with the UA) is that the way I talk about religion to my child is bound to offend someone.
Yah, I understand about that. I'm a bit unclear about what would be a red flag in a forum like this, even after reading the UA many many times.

In general, and not only on MDC, I honestly do my best to try not to offend people with my opinions and beliefs and when I have kids I'll teach them to do the same (it's interesting to hear about how you taught your kids about what to say about god and santa claus to others).
I find with religion, it's often a real double-standard. It's offensive or disrespectful for me to say "I think religion and god are bunk and this is why I think so" to someone who may be religious, but it's perfectly fine for someone to say things that I find totally offensive and disrespectful like, "If you don't believe in my god or what I believe, you will burn in hell for eternity" etc. Just yesterday, I politely told a man on the street who handed me a pamphlet and warned me about my "burning soul" that I found it very rude and offensive for him to give me such a thing. *sigh* It's a tough situation and I usually find it bit unfair coming from the atheist's side.

I'm not sure exactly how those things work on MDC, there a quite a few active and zealous religious members and tribes- I think the moderators have a difficult job but just try their best to deal with such a diverse community.

I don't think people really think about how saying something they are taught in their religion may be offensive to others who are not part of that religious tradition. And it's generally acceptable in western society to use language entrenched in religious ideas- something I sometimes find offensive in casual use. (An interesting aside- recently, I was reading about the arabic language and you literally can't speak arabic without constantly making religious references to god etc., it is part of the language.)

My older son recently learned about Veteran's Day in school. He and my younger son are now both saying that when they get older they can fight in a war. I've been trying to tell them that I hope there won't be a war for them to fight in and that although many people in dh's family are veterans, I don't believe that war and armed services are the best answer for anything. And that I hope when they get older and understand it better, they will feel the same way. It is tough.
:innocent Goodness...It sounds like you are saying/doing the best you can. I can't yet imagine how it will be when I have little ones coming home and springing things like that on me. If only there weren't things like wars and religion and politics...just my wishful thinking :eyesroll I get so many ideas from other mamas of how I might handle things when the time comes for me...It does sound tough!

[annettemarie]

Hey, mamas. I was pointed to this thread because you were having some problems determining if you were within the UA. You're fine. :) If you have any questions, please feel free to PM a moderator or an admin. Thanks!

[expat-mama]

just bumping us back to the first page! :o

[starlein26]

Speaking of what we tell our children about god, I haven't told mine anything yet.

Same here. I'll wait for their questions.

[APMomOfKimmyN-Maya]

I just started up a secular homeschooling group a few weeks ago with some other secular/free thinking homeschooling moms in my town. :)

[christifav]

I just started up a secular homeschooling group a few weeks ago with some other secular/free thinking homeschooling moms in my town. :)

I would love to find such a group in any town I'm in, but since I move every few years, that would be tough! :-)

I hate how everyone assumes you're homeschooling b/c you're religious. I'd like to homeschool so my kids get taught FACT, not the white christian American permutation of the truth that is so prevalent in public schools. FWIW, as I learn more about our Founding Fathers and the beginnings of America I am appalled at the "stories" I was taught in school.

Now that it is the "holiday season", how are you teaching your kids to respond to Christmas and all the "family traditions" that go along with it? I suppose it is easy enough to teach them to politely say, "thank you" when someone says "merry Christmas" or "happy Hanukkah" and hope that is the end of it.

On a lighter note, DH found some awesome winter season cards that say, "Axial Tilt: the Reason for the Season". LOL

[jaidymama]

In my community there is a huge faith-based homeschooling group, although they claim everyone is welcome... So I think it is mostly Christian families, but they don't necessarily get into discussing the bible when they meet. And there was an unschooling group that was mostly a yahoo group, although it wasn't very active. One weekend lots of emails were flying around with hopes of becoming really active. I met with them once, and they all had older kiddos and since then the online activity has been zero.

Anyways, I hadn't heard from the faith-based group either. Although my ds is only 4 so I think there's not a lot of organized hs'ing going on for that age. But I was hoping to meet other kiddos who are at home... I would be interested to learn the difference between what is taught in school, and more factual information so to speak. For instance, I am surprised to keep finding quotes from founding fathers about separation of church and state, and their fears about government and banking getting to much mixed together... I often hear the christian base talk about the founding fathers putting god in the constitution because this is a "christian" nation. Yet around the election there were discussions about different segments of people, including the % that are non-religious which seemed fairly considerate. I find it hard to fit in with religious people because they seem less tolerant of my views than I somehow need to be of theirs. That carries into my concerns about my son living outside the norm... He asked how people grew before there were people... and I had my dh talk to him about evolution... ha!! can you imagine how many other children are told about Adam & Eve?? All this to say that even though we have freedom of religion in this country it is assumed that we all are supposed to have one, and our children are being discriminated against.

That's one of the reasons I do talk to my son about all types of beliefs that people have--especially surrounding Christmas time. I want him to know that other children have these beliefs... Sort of training him for religious tolerance.

I am lucky to live in a community where there are many liberal thinkers, various religious and non-religious beliefs. But I see predominantly that the christian base is growing strong here. Anyways, my son is still young so we have time to consider how to approach these issues and friendships. Although I have found even though none of my friends attended church or behaved church-like in college that they are all now really into it as parents/older adults... And unfortunately some of those relationships have been strained because of our different beliefs. I think it's sad, and again, how am I to approach this in terms of my own son and his friends. One neighbor in particular has a playmate the same age as my son, and they are definitely Christian. And I have found myself purposefully avoiding church topics are being vague so as not to lose them as a friend for myself and my son. When it came out about my dh's past religious beliefs that he no longer has, I mentioned that all of dh's family here are catholics... as if somehow I needed to say something that would seem like we are NOT without religion. Even though dh is more open about his non-beliefs, we both tend to keep it to ourselves... a little like living in a closet, eh? Again, all of these things filter down to our ds, and I just don't know if it's the right thing to do to have him jumping through hoops or pacifying grandma or trying to fit in with friends with different beliefs. .... Ok, done with my rant. I will add that I'm glad for supposed separation of church and state so at least religion isn't generally talked about at school or work places.

Happy Thanksgiving!

[siobhang]

Speaking of what we tell our children about god, I haven't told mine anything yet. They are almost 6 and 3 1/2. I mentioned something to my dh the other night about the idea that maybe when they ask we can tell them that the bible is a story and god is a character/idea that some people think is real. Dh thinks that isn't the right thing to say, but isn't sure how we should approach it. I'd appreciate hearing other people's approaches.


My kids are 5 and 3. I feel it is important to define God because they hear the word all the time - "god bless", "god damn it", "for god's sake", etc etc etc.

And I hate the default "well, some people believe" definitions that we non-believers often fall into. Sure, some people believe all sorts of things but my kids need to know what WE believe, and what we believe should not be defined as an absence of belief or in negation to other people's beliefs. there is time enough for them to learn that other people believe differently than us - but I think the biggest failing of Atheists/agnostics as well as UUs (we are UU) is a failure to instill in our kids what WE believe is true about the universe.

Because frankly, our murky, unclear adult concepts are a hard match against clear, black and white definitions of the world that many religious groups offer. For a 5 year old, the idea of a guy in the sky with a white beard is pretty compelling (especially if he also gives you gifts at Christmas!). And studies have shown that if you DO not teach your child about god by age 5, they will create their own image, even if they don't ask. We live in a pretty Christian centric society in the US - it is in our every day language and cultural references - so it is not surprising that kids pick this stuff up even without us teaching it to them.

For us, God is a metaphor for a desire for control or good fortune. When people ask for God's help or say "god bless america", they are asking for good things to happen to them and the people they care about. They are acknowledging that some things are outside their control, that this is a scary fact, and that asking for God's help is a way to counter the lack of control.

I would love for a more concrete definition of God appropriate for an atheist 5 year old, but this is the best I can come up with for the moment.

We also define Jesus as a teacher who lived a long time ago who taught us many wise things. That when people ask for Jesus's help, they are really asking themselves for the wisdom that Jesus had, and to think about what is ethical and strong thing to do. This definition I feel better about as it is pretty concrete and valid.

Siobhan

[Semper Gumby]

Speaking of what we tell our children about god, I haven't told mine anything yet.

We've yet to tell ours, but then again, they're only 4 (next month) and 2. DH is an atheist, but is rather apathetic and would have me discuss matters like this. I'm ignostic when it comes to classical theism and much of traditional theism. They probably wouldn't grasp the whole "what is meant by god?" question 'til much later. Before going any further into the discussion about deities or gods that would have to be tackled. Until then, we pretty much figured that if they're still at the age where they believe Santa is real, then talk about the supernatural and deities found in ancient mythologies would be kept to a minimum.

I'm new here and have lurked from time to time.

[expat-mama]

I find it hard to fit in with religious people because they seem less tolerant of my views than I somehow need to be of theirs.

Sort of training him for religious tolerance.

Siobhan
I also find it hard to fit in with religious people for the same reason. I'm perfectly capable of holding my tongue when I hear others talk about things that I think are absurd or whatever, but I find many people who are religious feel OBLIGATED and highly justified to try to impose whatever beliefs they have on me. This makes me very angry. Why is it ok for religious people to knock on my door or hand me flyers about something I don't believe in and concepts that I find disturbing (hell, punishment, sin, "evil", etc.) but I'm not allowed to do the same? Can you imagine handing out pamphlets about atheism? Knocking on doors to spread that news that "There is no God and it's okay"? I think one might expect to get hurt... :duck:

As for "religious tolerance"- I plan to teach my children to respect other people no matter what they think or believe. People, no matter what, deserve to be treated humanely and with respect. However, I think "religious tolerance" has gone a bit far in some ways. Should we be tolerant of people who preach hate or war, suicide for a cause, who teach that some people are better than others (for example, gays or people of another religion) or that some people will suffer eternal and painful punishment just because of who they are? I don't think so. These days, it's harder and harder to draw the line with so many fundamentalist groups and religion becoming more and more of a deadly and divisive force in our world. (Sam Harris wrote about this in his book and spoke about it in this lecture (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qCS1twX2i6s).)
I'm hesitant to teach my children to be tolerant of views that can be so closely related to and intermingled to concepts that I think are wrong. :irked:

I'd like to homeschool so my kids get taught FACT, not the white christian American permutation of the truth that is so prevalent in public schools. FWIW, as I learn more about our Founding Fathers and the beginnings of America I am appalled at the "stories" I was taught in school.


On a lighter note, DH found some awesome winter season cards that say, "Axial Tilt: the Reason for the Season". LOL

I think the exact same way about homeschooling. And I've also been appalled....

Love the card! Where'd you find them?:joy:

[D'sMama]

Hi! Can I join? I just found this tribe...

I'm an atheist, have been for a long time, although I said I was agnostic for the bulk of my life. My mom was raised Catholic but was never really practicing and calls herself "spiritual" now. Growing up, she took me to a couple different churches occasionally when she got hit with a bout of guilt, but it never stuck. :lol My dad has some odd/extreme beliefs that I won't get into for fear of a UAV - suffice it to say that his incessant proselytizing growing up is probably the biggest reason for me being atheist now. I remember, as a kid, thinking "you've got to be kidding me" when he would tell me things - one of the worst was that my best friend at one point was Muslim and he told me that since she wasn't Christian she was going to hell. :angry I thought that was ludicrous and offensive and really rude of him to say to me, so that pretty much sealed the deal.

Now I'm married to my DH, whose mother is some kind of Christian, but she's not really "religious", and whose father is Jewish. His dad's family varies a lot - some keep kosher, some only set foot in a synagogue for a bar mitzvah. DH himself is non-religious - he decided pretty young that (organized) religion was responsible for too much violence, etc. and didn't want any part of it. When I've asked him about his current beliefs though, he's kind of wishy-washy. I would peg him as an agnostic who leans toward believing there's something god-like out there. I can't get a straight answer out of him though. :irked:

Now we're about to have our first baby :love so this stuff has been on my mind more (that and it's the holidays). My biggest annoyance is that people can be so presumptuous. We have a Jewish last name and live in an area with a lot of Jews, so people just assume we're Jewish. :eyesroll We do celebrate Hanukkah (and Passover, etc.) with DH's family, but only because it's a family event. We also celebrate Christmas, but more as an American cultural holiday (read: consumerist :p) - we do the tree and the presents and such but that's it.

I know we have lots of time before we'll need to address these issues with our baby, but it's great to hear how other people deal with it!

[D'sMama]

Oh, and can I vent a little here too? :innocent
Recently, because of the election and all that "Obama is Muslim" nonsense, I've been dealing with some, ahem, ill-informed family members who believe the chain emails they get. Well, it's turned into a preaching opportunity for one particular family member. :eyesroll I was talking to my mother about it and said I wished I could just tell him "yo, I'm atheist, stop sending me bible quote forwards" and she said I shouldn't say that. Same thing with regards to a certain newborn practice common among Jews, and dealing with ILs who will expect it to be done, if our baby is a boy. :(

I really get annoyed that I'm expected to keep my mouth shut about my beliefs (or non-beliefs) but I have to sit back and listen to everyone else spouting off about theirs. Why is it so wrong for me to be just as forthcoming/open/honest with family about what I believe as they are with me? I would never tell them they were wrong or shouldn't have their beliefs, but I just don't understand what's so bad about saying "I'm not Christian, I'm not Jewish, I don't believe in God." Why am I bad person if I say that? Total double-standard. :irked:

/end rant

[christifav]

I just don't understand what's so bad about saying "I'm not Christian, I'm not Jewish, I don't believe in God." Why am I bad person if I say that? Total double-standard. :irked:

/end rant

I totally agree! Even on Fox and Friends this morning (you know, the fair and balanced network) when discussing the Atheist sign in the Washington State building, the gal said, "Why do Christians have to suffer?

What??? How is having a little atheist representation side-by-side a nativity scene in a STATE BUILDING causing suffering? If it IS causing suffering, then wouldn't a Christian display without the corresponding Atheist display cause equal suffering to Atheists?

She went on to say, "next thing you know, they will want to put a Wicca display up". I sure hope the WA state Wicca jump on that.

Anyway, back to family...you should not have to make any apologies for your beliefs and if you prefer not to get into it with family, you could use the line, "you know what they say, never discuss politics or religion" as a way out.

Re: circumcision, go over to The Case Against Circumcision threads and you will find many, many supportive parents of varying faiths that can give you tips on dealing with family members who feel it is a religious or cultural necessity.

We found the Winter Solstice cards at zazzle dot com. I wish I could be a fly on the wall when my ultra-religious aunt opens hers and accuses my DH of brainwashing me. :D

[ndakkitten]

Just found this tribe, so figured I'd join in! Let's see how long I can make my intro!!!

I live in a rural town that is very Christian. (Kinda close to you HatterasGal, I think). I was raised Lutheran. My parents are semi-religious, but once I was old enough to know what the word "hypocrite" meant, I knew it applied to my parents! They go to church for appearances sake. Before that, I had a year or so where I actually "believed" but it didn't last long. I fought tooth & nail to keep from being sent to Sunday School, but still ended up getting confirmed in the Lutheran church. I started referring to myself as an agnostic in high school.

Then came college. I fell in love with a Catholic boy and ended up joining the Catholic church after we became engaged. Again, I believed for a while, but it didn't last. After we broke up, I had a pagan phase, but that only lasted for about a year.

So now I am back to the whole agnostic thing. My husband was a Christian who turned agnostic. Now he is exploring the whole pagan thing, which has made things a bit weird around our house. We are still celebrating Xmas, but like others here, its just a tradition...we don't discuss Jesus at all, only Santa! My husband is also arranging for a Yule celebration, and we are currently debating whether to have our children involved in the Yule ritual. I myself don't want to take part as I only interested in the history part of paganism, not the actual practice of it. I am just hoping all this doesn't confuse the kids too much.

So that's my story!

[Nemesis]

I also find it hard to fit in with religious people for the same reason. I'm perfectly capable of holding my tongue when I hear others talk about things that I think are absurd or whatever, but I find many people who are religious feel OBLIGATED and highly justified to try to impose whatever beliefs they have on me. This makes me very angry. Why is it ok for religious people to knock on my door or hand me flyers about something I don't believe in and concepts that I find disturbing (hell, punishment, sin, "evil", etc.) but I'm not allowed to do the same? Can you imagine handing out pamphlets about atheism? Knocking on doors to spread that news that "There is no God and it's okay"? I think one might expect to get hurt... :duck:




ITA! I just had a conversation with a Christian friend the other day about this. My MIL used to openly pray for me to "accept Christ as my savior" and I told her how it offended me and asked her to stop. To get my point across I asked her how she would like it if I would "pray that she loses her faith" and she was appalled that I would even think a thing like that.

Umm... yeah, me too. :eyesroll

Then my friend went on and on about how she wouldn't be a "good christian" if she didn't want me to become a christian. Of course, since she thinks she's right, she wants EVERYONE to be christian.

OK. I don't think I'm RIGHT and everyone else is wrong. To be honest, I don't really care how everyone else thinks unless it is directly affecting me.. like if they're praying for me or trying to impose their morals on me.

Anyway.. they would not be tolerant at all of Athiest or Agnostic views.

And with that, HI! I'm new to this tribe. I lurk once in a while, but don't usually post. :)

[rparker]

Hi! I'm really excited to find this thread because I was beginning to think that there weren't any atheists/agnostics on MDC :)

I'm an extremely lapsed Catholic and an atheist. (I was thrown out of Catholic school.) My husband is some kind of vague deist/agnostic and extremely irreligious, but his family are all (very) practicing Methodists. Our daughter is 14 months old.

Does anyone have any experience with MOPS? At the hospital xmas party tonight the wife of another doctor strongly encouraged us to attend. I looked up the organization online because her description of the meetings didn't sound very AP-oriented (kids in one room with volunteer babysitters, moms in another) and it appears to be extremely Christian, but the woman who invited me didn't mention religion at all except to say that they met in a church. (That wasn't a red flag for me since a lot of LLL meetings are held in church buildings.)

Are some MOPS groups more secular than others or are they all pretty Jesus-centric? If it's just a mainstream mom's group I'd consider trying it because we're new in town and I'm a SAHM, but I'd rather avoid it if prayer or discussions of faith are going to be involved. (I'm also new to MDC, so if there is a forum where this question wouldn't be off-topic...)

[marieangela]

Not sure about MOPS. Found this when I looked on their website
http://www.mops.org/page.php?pageid=79&srctype=linklist&src=78
I found a mom's group on meetup.com for my area. Their are a lot of different parenting styles, but I happened to make friends with one of the other atheists in the group. It was certainly nice to find a real life person (besides my dh) with similar religious views.

On another note- Can anyone recommend a book geared towards a kindergartener that explores multiple religions in an open way? I worry about what my older son picks up at school and am thinking it might be good to introduce the idea of religion to him in a general sort of way. I totally cringe when he recites the pledge of allegiance. My preschooler does, too, but instead of "under god", he say underdog! I don't correct him. Neither has asked me who or what god is, but I imagine it's coming soon.

[jaidymama]

A friend of mine in the seattle area was in a mops group... and she was in an active christian church... I don't know if there was a connection. There was one started in my community very recently. I tend to think it is NOT affiliated with religious groups, however, sometimes that's how the word spreads/who joins... I was interested in seeing what they are like.

As for books, check out this one... I haven't read it, but it might be what you're looking for:
http://www.ubah.com/ecommerce/details.asp?sid=N2754&gid=73540663&title=World+Religions++IL&sqlwhere=submit%3Dsearch%26search%3Dreligion

[Nemesis]

I have been to a few MOPS groups and they were religious. They open and close with prayer, and have a "steering team" to pray for anyone who needs praying for.

From what I've heard, some are more religious than others. I only went a few times because I wasn't comfortable with them telling Bible stories to the kids while they did little Moses coloring pages. Others are not like that, though. I think you'd have to just try it out and see.

[expat-mama]

On another note- Can anyone recommend a book geared towards a kindergartener that explores multiple religions in an open way?

I guess I'm not really addressing specifically what you're looking for but this book (http://www.amazon.com/Parenting-Beyond-Belief-Raising-Religion/dp/0814474268/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1229495347&sr=8-1), called Parenting Beyond Belief, and the "guidebook (http://www.amazon.com/Raising-Freethinkers-Practical-Parenting-Beyond/dp/0814410960/ref=pd_bbs_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1229495347&sr=8-2)" by the same authors looks really promising and might have some ideas about how to talk to kids about these subjects. I plan on ordering them for my nursing library, so I can get some ideas years before my babe even thinks about asking me any questions!

[KatWrangler]

I guess I'm not really addressing specifically what you're looking for but this book (http://www.amazon.com/Parenting-Beyond-Belief-Raising-Religion/dp/0814474268/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1229495347&sr=8-1), called Parenting Beyond Belief, and the "guidebook (http://www.amazon.com/Raising-Freethinkers-Practical-Parenting-Beyond/dp/0814410960/ref=pd_bbs_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1229495347&sr=8-2)" by the same authors looks really promising and might have some ideas about how to talk to kids about these subjects. I plan on ordering them for my nursing library, so I can get some ideas years before my babe even thinks about asking me any questions!

Thank you! :joy: These look like books I need.

[provocativa]

My kids are 5 and 2, and half my family are religious, so we do go to Christmas activities. We have taught them that we are not Christians, and that Christianity is there kind of make believe that they do, people have lots of kinds of these. God hasn't entered the picture yet, since my family is aware that if they get too Jesusy we will just not let them be around the kids. We call it winter celebration time and talk about all of the different celebrations around the world at this time and throughout history.

[expat-mama]

Some statistics about atheists I found pretty interesting.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T27kB4BjbEg (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T27kB4BjbEg)

I like to think that these statistics support my belief that an atheist world would be a more peaceful and enlightened place for all to exist. It also seems that more people are becoming atheists- I thought it was rather the opposite, but the European statistics are especially promising.

I would like to see the statistics about religious moderates who have turned fundamentalist, though- unfortunately, I think that number is rising all over the world. It seems to me that although (according to these stats) the number of atheists is on the rise, among theists, the number of moderates is decreasing and the number of fundamentalists/extremists is increasing.

[boatrat]

Hi all, I'm so happy that I found this thread. Expat-mama, I love the Youtube video. I concur with the correlation between level of education and atheism. My husband and I are both Ph.D.-level scientists and I get so frustrated with the attacks on science and scientific education by the religious right.

I am an athesist book junky. I love to read Sam Harris and Richard Dawkins is my hero. Also, I recently read the book Freethinkers: a History of American Secularism and I highly recommend it.

rachel616, I had a very similar experience in the time leading up to the election. I was constantly bombarded with racist pro-religion anti-muslim emails from family members. I finally had too much and fired back with a link to snopes in an effort to clear up the misinformation, but I doubt it had any real impact.

My husband and I are going to raise our son to be a freethinker. We live in the Research Triangle of North Carolina, so we are in an intellectual oasis in the middle of the bible belt. I grew up in rural southeast Georgia and I dealt first-hand with religious discrimination since my father was an agnostic and I did not attend church. Hopefully my son will not have the same type of experience.

[Ryatt]

Hi! :wave

New to this thread... and happy to see some other like minded mamas. Hope every one is well!

[christifav]

Welcome, Ryatt and boatrat!

[Tangled Hill]

Ooh, can I join?

Just watched Religulous (the Bill Maher movie) today. Has anyone seen it? They've got it up for free at Atheist Nation (http://www.atheistnation.net/video/?video/02542/atheist/religulous-full-movie) right now. I have a hard time watching Bill Maher (he's just so rude to people, and I find myself turning away from the tv - or computer - in embarrassment... well, that, and he seems to think that all homeschoolers are religious extremists), but I still had a lot of fun watching.

I've also just discovered the huge Atheist community on Reddit. That's a good way to kill a few (or several) hours. :lol

[elizaMM]

Thanks Tangly!!

DH & I watched it the other night, courtesy of you. Bill IS rather cynical. But I think he says a lot of things many of us are thinking already (albeit, rudely) and he does a good job of encouraging other skeptics to come out of the closet. Its another case of choosing powerful over ethical.

And two thumbs up to the whole Documentary Feature Film jag!

[MrsRefney]

Hi all, I'm so happy that I found this thread. Expat-mama, I love the Youtube video. I concur with the correlation between level of education and atheism. My husband and I are both Ph.D.-level scientists and I get so frustrated with the attacks on science and scientific education by the religious right.

I am an athesist book junky. I love to read Sam Harris and Richard Dawkins is my hero. Also, I recently read the book Freethinkers: a History of American Secularism and I highly recommend it.


My husband and I are going to raise our son to be a freethinker. We live in the Research Triangle of North Carolina, so we are in an intellectual oasis in the middle of the bible belt. I grew up in rural southeast Georgia and I dealt first-hand with religious discrimination since my father was an agnostic and I did not attend church. Hopefully my son will not have the same type of experience.


Can we be friends? We (me, my husband, baby girl and hopefully another babe by then) are looking to move to the Triangle by April-May of 2010. We live in South Louisiana now, and oooo, boy, are we in the minority.

I'm in the process of reading Freethinkers now. We have a bunch of Dawkins also, but some of the science is a bit much for me in the toddler-raising state.

:P

[jspring0308]

Hi All,

I'm currently in Charleston, South Carolina and now understand "The Bible Belt"; I think South Carolina is close to the buckle! I grew up in the Pacific Northwest and religion was such a non-issue even to people who believed in god that I never really thought about how religion for some is such an important daily part of life. I had never been told to "have a blessed day" until I moved here and now I am probably offered that 2-5 times per week. I definitely feel like a true outsider in regards to religion here in the south especially since I am fairly anti-religion to boot and have no interest in letting my 6 year old explore Christianity and tend to be quite pragmatic about religion/spirituality/life/death etc.

Anyway nice to find this thread. I look forward to reading some of the suggestions in the previous threads. The last book I read of this topic was God is not Great and really enjoyed most of it.

[Devaskyla]

Just saying hi. I guess the closest label for me is agnostic. The only thing that I seem to really believe in is reincarnation. Every so often I think there's something more...the universe, God, whatever you want to call it. Most of the time I think it's just a way to not take responsibility for yourself & your life.

Family went to church when I was a kid, extremely liberal by the standards of most U.S. churches, though, I think....United Church of Canada. Despite the fact I was the only girl in my Brownie troop to get 2 levels of the Religion in Life badge (or maybe because of it?:p) I was never a believer. As I got older, it annoyed me more & more. So much, that despite my love of singing, I would stop singing phrases I didn't believe & eventually whole songs. I remember being 9 or 10 & having my mom mad at me because I wasn't singing.

I think the final straw for me was one day in Sunday school. We were asked what 3 things we would save if our house were on fire. I picked my pets & the teacher basically told me I was an idiot, I was supposed to be picking things & animals didn't count. Looking back, I don't think she was trying to say things were more important than my pets (although who knows), but that's the way I took it as a kid and it completely shredded any chance of me ever being a Christian.

DS1 seems to be an atheist. Not entirely sure how that happened. He's learned not tell Grandma she's full of it when she talks about God, though. He even sat through her reading a book about the Christian Christmas story. Then we had a little chat about it after. :wink

H is...confused. :lol Worse than I am, he doesn't appear to have anything he believes in but hasn't really ruled anything out, either.

[ecoteat]

Another new one here...

I've never called myself anything but an atheist. There was no religion in my upbringing, really, other than weddings in churches (not mine!) and cousins being baptized. But my immediate family never went to church or talked about religion much. When I was in high school I had pretty clear ideas about how I viewed the world, so I started reading about religion to see if there was anything out there that I fit into. I didn't really find anything. I was (and still am) drawn to certain aspects of Buddhism, but not enough for that to be what I call myself.

I consider myself an atheist for the simple fact that I don't believe any divine being exists. I am a science teacher and I find great comfort in the natural order of things. One challenge I'm running into this year is teaching about the universe and the geologic time scale to a few middle school students who are very religious. It's actually gone much more smoothly than I expected, and religion shouldn't even come up in class anyway, but sometimes there is still that tension.

I live in a very open minded community, so there are no issues at all with varying views of the world in my personal life. Many of my friends have turned away from the religion they were raised with.

I just realized I should have gone to bed long ago. So I'll probably be checking in with this tribe to see what you all talk about here.

[mightymoo]

Anyone watching Obama's speech? "We are a nation of christians and muslims, jews and hindus... and nonbelievers"

I seriously started crying. I'm so glad that he acknowledged that not everyone believes. I never expected that.

[KLM99]

I'm watching and did notice the "nonbelievers" - but jeeeez...anyone else offended by the extreme NON-separation of church and state??? That first sermon was unbelievable...

[riverside knitter]

Yep, I found Rev. Warren's invocation to be a bit much.

[mightymoo]

I'm watching and did notice the "nonbelievers" - but jeeeez...anyone else offended by the extreme NON-separation of church and state??? That first sermon was unbelievable...

Yes, I agree, I was thinking to myself why do we have to bring god into everything, sigh. But, those were from Reverends, so I'm not surprised. I'm so happy to see President Obama show that he understands that there are nonbelievers too though.

What would an atheist president swear on? I think I'd swear on a copy of the constitution. like that would ever happen anyway, sigh.

[Contrariety]

I just tuned out the god talk, and was stoked to hear that someone is thinking about us "non-believers." :joy: Heaven forbid the use of the a-words, but... I'll take what I can get! :thumb

[hollyvangogh]

Can I join? I just split from the LDS church after converting 8 years ago.

[Contrariety]

Can I join? I just split from the LDS church after converting 8 years ago.

Sure! There have been a few ex-mo tribes bouncing about MDC, though it seems I can never keep track of them... maybe we need to start a new one?

Though the atheist/agnostic tribe is a comfy place to be, as well...

[hollyvangogh]

Sure! There have been a few ex-mo tribes bouncing about MDC, though it seems I can never keep track of them... maybe we need to start a new one?

Though the atheist/agnostic tribe is a comfy place to be, as well...

Hmmm...that would be a nice tribe to be a part of....

ETA: I don't want religion in my life. But I want spirituality, kwim? What does everybody do to have that? For example, instead of praying before meals now we just take a second to feel gratitude for our food.

[expat-mama]

Anyone watching Obama's speech? "We are a nation of christians and muslims, jews and hindus... and nonbelievers"

I seriously started crying. I'm so glad that he acknowledged that not everyone believes. I never expected that.

YES! Yay "NON-BELIEVERS"- DH and I cheered and were so surprised to hear that! Great great great.:love

[expat-mama]

Hello Atheists and Agnostics!

A while ago we were talking about books either to guide us in raising our children as free-thinkers and compassionate, moral and respectful atheists/agnostics or for the kids themselves. I found a few books for kids recently while browsing some humanist websites. Here they are and they look awesome, can't wait to get them. I think they are for older kids (pre-teen or teen), but I think reading them to younger kids could introduce some concepts and ideas that would be beneficial if you guide them along.

What About Gods? (http://www.amazon.com/What-About-Gods-Skeptics-Bookshelf/dp/0879751061/ref=wl_it_dp?ie=UTF8&coliid=IUE81OY5WI14O&colid=1RLO611ODRG2V)

Humanism, What's That? A Book for Curious Kids (http://www.amazon.com/Humanism-Whats-That-Book-Curious/dp/1591023874/ref=wl_it_dp?ie=UTF8&coliid=I3906X67O8IWQY&colid=1RLO611ODRG2V)

Maybe Right, Maybe Wrong: A Guide for Young Thinkers (http://www.amazon.com/Maybe-Right-Wrong-Guide-Thinkers/dp/0879757310/ref=wl_it_dp?ie=UTF8&coliid=I135LLG5P66LKZ&colid=1RLO611ODRG2V)

Maybe Yes, Maybe No: A Guide for Young Skeptics (http://www.amazon.com/Maybe-Yes-No-Guide-Skeptics/dp/0879756071/ref=wl_it_dp?ie=UTF8&coliid=ILEUS0P9I1V0A&colid=1RLO611ODRG2V)


If anyone has read these books let me know how you liked them. Reading the descriptions and reviews on Amazons has made me really excited to read them. They're on my wish list for now. :thumb

[siobhang]

YES! Yay "NON-BELIEVERS"- DH and I cheered and were so surprised to hear that! Great great great.:love

yup!

as a friend of mine said during the speech, "well, he was raised by an atheist, and his dad had atheist tendencies towards the end of his life"

[Tangled Hill]

YES! Yay "NON-BELIEVERS"- DH and I cheered and were so surprised to hear that! Great great great.:love

I was watching the live stream on MSNBC's site, and as soon as I heard those words, I clapped and squeaked and smiled a huge, goofy grin. I'm sure I was quite the picture. Luckily, no one was around. :lol

[jaidymama]

I felt it was OK for Obama to have a ceremony that included the beliefs he has. HOWEVER, I did not agree for the clergymen to have referenced the entire nation as if we are all the same... there was a statement like we are all here establishing your kingdom on earth... Um, well I'm not.

Historically speaking (and I think it can be forgotten by Christians, they just think they were in on it from the beginning), the did not used to swear in the president with a bible (according to my husband). And the whole prayer was a recent addition as well.

I wish there were another label besides NON believer. As far as I'm concerned, there are things I believe in... it's just not what they believe. So it's like I'm being described by what they are not... Just think if he had prayed for the white non colored people. But I suppose I should just be happy that he acknowledges there are more people than the Christians in this country.

THanks for the book links. I don't suppose I would find those in my local library!

[Tangled Hill]

I wish there were another label besides NON believer. As far as I'm concerned, there are things I believe in... it's just not what they believe. So it's like I'm being described by what they are not... Just think if he had prayed for the white non colored people. But I suppose I should just be happy that he acknowledges there are more people than the Christians in this country.

My brother and I discussed this at length. We're not happy with the term either, for the same reasons you mentioned, but we decided he (or the speech writers?) probably labored over what term to use, trying to offend as few people as possible (and trying to continue to appear just as xian as everyone wants him to be). I think it was almost certainly a compromise.

I didn't hear the prayers, as I just muted the computer when they were on. :lol

[jspring0308]

As my own little protest against all the prayers and God Bless America broohaahaa I actually turned the t.v. off while the prayers were being said. :wink

I don't like non-believer either (even though it pretty much fits me to a T)b/c I think it sounds negative but I truly do appreciate that Obama and his writers bothered to include us! I was sitting there as he was going through the different religions saying to my nursling "and non-religious people" and then he included me and I whooped, totally startling baby!

[christifav]

Hello Atheists and Agnostics!

A while ago we were talking about books either to guide us in raising our children as free-thinkers and compassionate, moral and respectful atheists/agnostics or for the kids themselves. I found a few books for kids recently while browsing some humanist websites. Here they are and they look awesome, can't wait to get them. I think they are for older kids (pre-teen or teen), but I think reading them to younger kids could introduce some concepts and ideas that would be beneficial if you guide them along.

What About Gods? (http://www.amazon.com/What-About-Gods-Skeptics-Bookshelf/dp/0879751061/ref=wl_it_dp?ie=UTF8&coliid=IUE81OY5WI14O&colid=1RLO611ODRG2V)

Humanism, What's That? A Book for Curious Kids (http://www.amazon.com/Humanism-Whats-That-Book-Curious/dp/1591023874/ref=wl_it_dp?ie=UTF8&coliid=I3906X67O8IWQY&colid=1RLO611ODRG2V)

Maybe Right, Maybe Wrong: A Guide for Young Thinkers (http://www.amazon.com/Maybe-Right-Wrong-Guide-Thinkers/dp/0879757310/ref=wl_it_dp?ie=UTF8&coliid=I135LLG5P66LKZ&colid=1RLO611ODRG2V)

Maybe Yes, Maybe No: A Guide for Young Skeptics (http://www.amazon.com/Maybe-Yes-No-Guide-Skeptics/dp/0879756071/ref=wl_it_dp?ie=UTF8&coliid=ILEUS0P9I1V0A&colid=1RLO611ODRG2V)


If anyone has read these books let me know how you liked them. Reading the descriptions and reviews on Amazons has made me really excited to read them. They're on my wish list for now. :thumb

Add to that list: Dale McGowan’s new book, Raising Freethinkers: A Practical Guide for Parenting Beyond Belief, has finally been released!

[Theoretica]

Hello Atheists and Agnostics!

A while ago we were talking about books either to guide us in raising our children as free-thinkers and compassionate, moral and respectful atheists/agnostics or for the kids themselves. I found a few books for kids recently while browsing some humanist websites. Here they are and they look awesome, can't wait to get them. I think they are for older kids (pre-teen or teen), but I think reading them to younger kids could introduce some concepts and ideas that would be beneficial if you guide them along.

What About Gods? (http://www.amazon.com/What-About-Gods-Skeptics-Bookshelf/dp/0879751061/ref=wl_it_dp?ie=UTF8&coliid=IUE81OY5WI14O&colid=1RLO611ODRG2V)

Humanism, What's That? A Book for Curious Kids (http://www.amazon.com/Humanism-Whats-That-Book-Curious/dp/1591023874/ref=wl_it_dp?ie=UTF8&coliid=I3906X67O8IWQY&colid=1RLO611ODRG2V)

Maybe Right, Maybe Wrong: A Guide for Young Thinkers (http://www.amazon.com/Maybe-Right-Wrong-Guide-Thinkers/dp/0879757310/ref=wl_it_dp?ie=UTF8&coliid=I135LLG5P66LKZ&colid=1RLO611ODRG2V)

Maybe Yes, Maybe No: A Guide for Young Skeptics (http://www.amazon.com/Maybe-Yes-No-Guide-Skeptics/dp/0879756071/ref=wl_it_dp?ie=UTF8&coliid=ILEUS0P9I1V0A&colid=1RLO611ODRG2V)


If anyone has read these books let me know how you liked them. Reading the descriptions and reviews on Amazons has made me really excited to read them. They're on my wish list for now. :thumb

THANK YOU SO MUCH!!!!

I'm heading to the bookstore tomorrow to get these...DD has been asking lots of questions lately and this helps tremendously!

[Tangled Hill]

Oh, wow - I just found ten issues of Free Inquiry (http://www.secularhumanism.org/index.php?section=fi&page=index) magazine from when I was a kid! They range from the winter 1986 issue to the fall 1990 issue. How cool! They've been sitting out in my garage for years, I guess. Wish I'd known they were out there sooner. Oh, well. I'm certainly gonna have a fun weekend!

:joy:

[Karamom]

subbing:p

[Susana]

I'm here.
after several years of trying my darndest to trade catholicism for wicca, I've just decided to go with my gut.

I'm an atheist who really digs and honors the planet. Well hell, the whole universe for that matter.

both of my parents died in 2008 and for the life of me, I want so badly to cling to a belief system that promises me that they are still somehow around me and that I will see them again someday. Try as I may, I really don't believe it.

I feel relief in acknowledging my atheism. Just because I don't believe in god, or gods, or goddesses doesn't mean I'm not connected with all life here on Earth, and I can celebrate that.

nice to meet everyone here.

[Tangled Hill]

Just because I don't believe in god, or gods, or goddesses doesn't mean I'm not connected with all life here on Earth, and I can celebrate that.

:nod

Welcome to the tribe!! And :hug to you for all you've gone through this past year.

[jaidymama]

So what do you do or ask your child to do while everyone else is praying or saying grace before a meal? We have family who we eat with about once a month, and they say their prayers. I respect their choices, and their rituals. Yet obviously my son knows nothing about prayer. I'm not someone who is looking to be controversial. However, I don't think I'm going to ask my son to pretend to pray. We did ask him to sit quietly, however, it's usually that the food is in front of him while they pray so he eats while they pray...

What do you do, or what do you think is the best way to handle this with ease and tact?

[Karamom]

I've heard of atheist families who will sit for a minute and just think about how thankful they are for the food. Is he old enough to do this?

[jaidymama]

ha! we are at the super picky stage, so being thankful might be a practical challenge since getting him to eat seems to be a challenge at times. However, I like the idea of practicing it so that he will at least get there someday.

[Tangled Hill]

How old is your little one? Mine is nearly eleven, so I'm sure it's quite a bit different for us. Anyway, when we get together with extended family on Easter, Thanksgiving and Christmas, son sits quietly with his eyes down or closed while they say their prayer. I do the same thing. I don't remember teaching him this. When he was little, I think I just tried to keep him quiet while they prayed, but at some point, he started doing it on his own. Of course, I think he's known about Christianity and prayer since he was four, or so. I just really don't remember. Big lot of help I am, huh? :lol

Recently (like within the past few years), he's prided himself on respecting other people's beliefs, so he listens quietly as his great grandmother tells him how wonderful Heaven is. He realizes it would break her heart to know we don't subscribe to her beliefs, so he pretends. He doesn't do this with everyone - just her. She's 95, and I think it's probably a good idea not to get her worried or stressed about our eternal souls, so I'm cool with it. I guess I sort of do the same thing by nodding and agreeing with her.

But with the praying, I think maybe just telling him that they're being thankful for the food they're about to eat and that everyone sits quietly for a minute might be enough to do the trick.

[hollyvangogh]

http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=sD0B-X9LJjs

I enjoyed this, wanted to share.

[Theoretica]

Ok so the local bookstores don't have the books listed above. I knew I was in fundieville but this is a bit much. I did find them on Amazon and will order them. I just ordered Parenting Beyond Belief and the workbook to go with it so I'm at my Amazonian Limit for this pay period LOLOL

BUT...I went to our library and they don't have anything either??

A LIBRARY?? With nothing on atheism and parenting?? Not even Secular Parenting.

Now, put in RELIGIOUS parenting and there's 90 titles. Seriously.

I asked if I could donate some and they said all donated books go to the book sale, NOT to the shelves.

:scratch

Infuriating.

[Contrariety]

So what do you do or ask your child to do while everyone else is praying or saying grace before a meal? We have family who we eat with about once a month, and they say their prayers. I respect their choices, and their rituals. Yet obviously my son knows nothing about prayer. I'm not someone who is looking to be controversial. However, I don't think I'm going to ask my son to pretend to pray. We did ask him to sit quietly, however, it's usually that the food is in front of him while they pray so he eats while they pray...

What do you do, or what do you think is the best way to handle this with ease and tact?

DS is still too young to understand "Sit still. Please be respectful and quiet."

So for now, I mostly just try and keep him distracted enough by eating something that he doesn't whoop and holler during the prayer. As he gets older, I will teach him to do as I do. I sit still. I am respectful. I am quiet.

I do not bow my head. I do not fold my arms or clasp my hands. If possible, I steer clear of the kitchen or dining area before the prayer is said to avoid the awkwardness.

[Contrariety]

A LIBRARY?? With nothing on atheism and parenting?? Not even Secular Parenting.

Now, put in RELIGIOUS parenting and there's 90 titles. Seriously.

I asked if I could donate some and they said all donated books go to the book sale, NOT to the shelves.

:scratch

Infuriating.

My library has an overwhelming amount of LDS (I live in Utah) religious books as well as fiction books... and next to nothing for anyone else... not even Catholic books, even though there is a pretty decent latino population in my area. :shrug

I can get most books I want through the state's inter-library loan program, though.

[MrsRefney]

Ok so the local bookstores don't have the books listed above. I knew I was in fundieville but this is a bit much. I did find them on Amazon and will order them. I just ordered Parenting Beyond Belief and the workbook to go with it so I'm at my Amazonian Limit for this pay period LOLOL

BUT...I went to our library and they don't have anything either??

A LIBRARY?? With nothing on atheism and parenting?? Not even Secular Parenting.

Now, put in RELIGIOUS parenting and there's 90 titles. Seriously.

I asked if I could donate some and they said all donated books go to the book sale, NOT to the shelves.

:scratch

Infuriating.

It's like that here, as well. I can't even find current events books written by "liberal" authors. All teh Rush and Ann you can devour, but that's it.

[*CM*]

Hi! I'm just joinging this thread and so excited to see that there is a group of agnostic moms out there to chat with!

I enjoy reading Dale McGowan's blog and can't wait to get out and get his new book.

Theoretica, is it possible to request that your library purchase the book you are looking for? The library I went to before we moved had a process through which patrons could request certain materials. I don't know if they needed a certain number of requests for th same item before they'd get it, but you could always call and ask your library if they have a system set up for requests.

[~Purity♥Lake~]

I'm glad I found this thread. I was subbed to an agnostic/atheist thread, but that was pulled. So glad I found another.

I've just started attending our local UU church. We've gone twice the past three weekends. We'll see if it sticks.

Theoretica, that book finding seems awfully frustrating. Even more so that they aren't open to adding free books to their shelves.

[elizaMM]

I'm here.
after several years of trying my darndest to trade catholicism for wicca, I've just decided to go with my gut.

I'm an atheist who really digs and honors the planet. Well hell, the whole universe for that matter.

both of my parents died in 2008 and for the life of me, I want so badly to cling to a belief system that promises me that they are still somehow around me and that I will see them again someday. Try as I may, I really don't believe it.

I feel relief in acknowledging my atheism. Just because I don't believe in god, or gods, or goddesses doesn't mean I'm not connected with all life here on Earth, and I can celebrate that.

nice to meet everyone here.

Susana-- I am so WITH you. I was never christian but the pagan world has always been so tempting, but I always come back to just not believing (one could argue one could be an atheist pagan, I think, but when one tries to find other pagans they usually are all into Athena or somebody and it just turns me off).

That is so brave of you to acknowledge your unmet hopes! And yes! yes! yes!

Peace Susana!

[Theoretica]

It's like that here, as well. I can't even find current events books written by "liberal" authors. All teh Rush and Ann you can devour, but that's it.

Same here....grrrrr for living in FUNDIEVILLE

Theoretica, is it possible to request that your library purchase the book you are looking for? The library I went to before we moved had a process through which patrons could request certain materials. I don't know if they needed a certain number of requests for th same item before they'd get it, but you could always call and ask your library if they have a system set up for requests.

I asked them that, they said I could put in a request for a specific title but then it is 'reviewed' by the 'board' so as to determine the 'best usage of available funds'. That was when I said ohh it's a MONEY thing, well I'll buy 'em from Amazon and donate 'em to ya...there's ZERO atheist books to be found here. She says Ummmm well, you see, donated books are ummm reviewed by the Librarian God (she said the lady's name, I'm blank LOL) and if there isn't a need for that particular book they are sold at the book sale.

grrrrrrrrrrr.........:irked::irked::irked:

Hmmm. I'm betting my chances of getting atheist books are zilch around here. Amazon here I come! LOLOL

[MrsRefney]

Yep, my personal library has been receiving regular monthly Amazon shipments...my husband just sighs.... :)

[jaidymama]

So I'm curious about the library thing... It's hard for me to imagine a public library having only religious parenting books. So I have to ask if it mattered how you did the search. Was it a computer database search or were you looking at the shelf? It's not that I don't believe you, I am surprised and would like to better understand.

Thanks for your patience.

[elizaMM]

So I'm curious about the library thing... It's hard for me to imagine a public library having only religious parenting books

Imagine a rural southern town. One where linchings are a not-so-distant-memory. One where The Catcher In The Rye was banned for a few decades (perhaps still). If you don't go to church, you must be a criminal.

I can certainly imagine no atheist books at their public library. Hopefully they have the ability to "interlibrary loan" them from somewhere near or far. Hopefully they believe in freedom of expression and speach. But I wouldn't count on it.

[Susana]

:nod

Welcome to the tribe!! And :hug to you for all you've gone through this past year.

thank you, Tangled Hill!! :)

[Susana]

Susana-- I am so WITH you. I was never christian but the pagan world has always been so tempting, but I always come back to just not believing (one could argue one could be an atheist pagan, I think, but when one tries to find other pagans they usually are all into Athena or somebody and it just turns me off).

That is so brave of you to acknowledge your unmet hopes! And yes! yes! yes!

Peace Susana!

Thank you, elizamm! :)
I like the term atheist pagan, but I know what you say is true...my pagan friends tell me it's not possible to be both atheist *and* pagan.
But what else would you call a nature lover who doesn't believe in a supernatural higher power?
I'll probably just stick with that.."nature lover who doesn't believe in a supernatural higher power", though it is kinda long!!

[Theoretica]

So I'm curious about the library thing... It's hard for me to imagine a public library having only religious parenting books. So I have to ask if it mattered how you did the search. Was it a computer database search or were you looking at the shelf? It's not that I don't believe you, I am surprised and would like to better understand.

Thanks for your patience.

I did both, at the two area libraries. They aren't connected to one another because technically they are in two different towns, but the towns run into each other if that makes sense. I searched the shelves AND the computer database. I used every term imagineable. The terms "atheist", "humanism", "atheism", and "secular" all came up "yielding no results". I'm really familiar with Dewey so I do know where to look lol

Imagine a rural southern town. One where linchings are a not-so-distant-memory. One where The Catcher In The Rye was banned for a few decades (perhaps still). If you don't go to church, you must be a criminal. I can certainly imagine no atheist books at their public library. Hopefully they have the ability to "interlibrary loan" them from somewhere near or far. Hopefully they believe in freedom of expression and speach. But I wouldn't count on it.

I'm not in the south (although I am FROM the south LOL) but I'm in a city/town that is predominantly and overwhelmingly Christian and white or hispanic. We sometimes go to a UU church on the other side of town, a whopping 100 people are there on a VERY busy Sunday, and they have their own library of 30 books...all very old....about humanism and atheism, primarily regarding science. But that's it. I don't mind donating books to them, it's just preaching to the choir-if you'll excuse the blatant pun LOL! It is interesting because the FIRST thing people ask you when they meet you is "what church do you go to". It's one of the reasons we joined the uu, so we could 'have a church' and DD could have friends we don't seriously disagree with.

While they don't ban books per se, they are extraordinarily selective about what 'gets in'. But without seeming that way. If that makes any sense LOL

Thank you, elizamm! :)
I like the term atheist pagan, but I know what you say is true...my pagan friends tell me it's not possible to be both atheist *and* pagan.
But what else would you call a nature lover who doesn't believe in a supernatural higher power?
I'll probably just stick with that.."nature lover who doesn't believe in a supernatural higher power", though it is kinda long!!

I feel the EXACT same way! I have always been fascinated with paganism, even as a 'christian', and I really enjoy the appreciation and reverence of nature. But there isn't a god/goddess making spells work anymore than there's a god answering prayers. So, while it's easier in some respects to be 'in the pagan world' than 'in the xtian world', and we really incorporate a LOT of pagan traditions into our family...we don't do 'rituals' or 'spell casting' or 'magick' or anything because it's just not any different than what any other mainstream religion does...asking some supernatural force to intervene in life for their personal benefit.

Because of DH's Korean heritage we incorporate a lot of Buddhism into our lives as well, and that I can do without reservation because Buddhism doesn't adhere to any theistic belief that requires worship/praise/whatever.

So we're weird. We're pagan-esque, we're buddhist, we're atheist. LOLOL

[darien]

Hello, all! I can't recall if I've ever posted on this thread-- I usually just lurk.

If you'll indulge me, I wanted to share an amusing anecdote. There aren't too many people in my life who would find godless kid-talk funny. :eyesroll

My ds12 has been "reading the Bible" for the past few weeks, at "The Brick Testament" website. It's Bible verses, illustrated with Legos-- hilarious, btw.

My ds4 is very into mythology right now. He'll ask "Please tell me more myths about Yaweh!" The other day, he saw a rainbow and yelled "Look, it's Yaweh's promise!" [God shows Noah a rainbow as a sign that he'll never flood the earth and kill everything again]

It's funny to me that my atheist kids are more interested in the Bible than any of the Christian kids we know!

Another anecdote-- this one my friend's son. One day when he was 5, he came home from school and said "Mommy, my teacher has an imaginary friend named Jesus!"

[jspring0308]

Another anecdote-- this one my friend's son. One day when he was 5, he came home from school and said "Mommy, my teacher has an imaginary friend named Jesus!"
:rotflmao

Reminds me of the quote by Lily Tomlin and I have to paraphrase it, Why is it that if you talk to god you're praying but if god talks to you you're crazy? :lol

[~Purity♥Lake~]

It's funny to me that my atheist kids are more interested in the Bible than any of the Christian kids we know!

That is so true. Education and curiosity foster knowledge. Forced beliefs tend to foster resentment or lack of interest.

Another anecdote-- this one my friend's son. One day when he was 5, he came home from school and said "Mommy, my teacher has an imaginary friend named Jesus!"


That's hilarious. :lol

[Tangled Hill]

Education and curiosity foster knowledge. Forced beliefs tend to foster resentment or lack of interest.

:nod

[suebee79]

Hi gang! Glad to find you all.:)

Here's a question for you. How do you deal with your religious family? Do they know you don't believe or do you pretend and say noncommittal "mmmms" and "ohhhhs" when the conversation turns to god? Do you feel like you would be causing them pain and anguish if they knew you were an athiest? Worried your soul and those of your children are going to suffer eternal damnation?

I am dealing with this with my mother and father. I just don't know the best way to go. In the past I've just gone along with them, but now I;m a mom I feel more strongly about not pretending to be something I am not. I want to be true to myself and be a good example for my daughter, but I also don't want to hurt and/or let down my parents...

[Contrariety]

I don't entertain my family's religious assumptions. BUT out of respect for their fragile little feelings, I also don't straight out talk about my lack of religion. If they ever asked me, or wanted to pretend for a second to have a genuine interest in what I do (or don't, as it were) believe in and why, I wouldn't hesitate to give them the low down.

[Theoretica]

I don't entertain my family's religious assumptions. BUT out of respect for their fragile little feelings, I also don't straight out talk about my lack of religion. If they ever asked me, or wanted to pretend for a second to have a genuine interest in what I do (or don't, as it were) believe in and why, I wouldn't hesitate to give them the low down.

On this note...specifically the 'fragile little feelings' part....

Why is it that folks who adhere fervently to religion are so damn sensitive about it? I mean, if they are so sure, why do atheists bother them so much?

[CallMeMommy]

My mom knows, she just refuses to talk about it. I don't think my dad knows, but he's not particularly religious and I can't foresee him talking about god. I don't know if my fundie sister knows, if she does she doesn't talk about it. Not much help, but there ya go...

We were up to see MIL last weekend and she asked when the baby was getting baptised. Um, you'll have to ask your son about that one... She's just worried that the baby will go to hell if something happens to him :eyesroll He's a frickin' BABY who's never done anything wrong. My mom's pulled that too, "I'm just afraid for your soul..." Gee, well then, sign me right up for that religion that punishes you with hell if you don't believe! Does this actually make sense to people?

[christifav]

On this note...specifically the 'fragile little feelings' part....

Why is it that folks who adhere fervently to religion are so damn sensitive about it? I mean, if they are so sure, why do atheists bother them so much?

Seriously! I don't get defensive when someone offers me a conflicting point of view. I either a.) know I'm right so screw 'em or b.) am not 100% sure I'm right so I listen.

I'm sure they are bothered by us b/c they have no evidence to prove their beliefs and therefore rely on other people believing to validate their own beliefs. Whew...that was a mouthful. But if a rational person tells them that, "hey, I don't buy your sky fairy business" then that suggests to them that there's a chance they may be wrong.

But...FWIW, I have christian friends who are NOT threatened by me and I am able to have intelligent conversation regarding faith with them...although it always ends in "we agree to disagree". :)

[Tangled Hill]

I'm lucky in that my parents are atheists, themselves (well, my mother might lean toward agnostic, from time to time).

Beyond my immediate family (all atheists), only my grandmothers ever talk to me about religion. One grandmother, I don't see often enough that it's ever really come up. She'll mention something Xian here and there in a letter, but that's about it. So, I've never really had occasion to discuss it with her.

My other grandmother is 95 and would worry about my soul (and my son's soul) if she knew, so I go ahead and pretend, as does the little one. She doesn't need that stress. Being 95 is stress enough for her (she's not taking old age very well). I don't want to cause her any additional worry, whatsoever, if I can help it. I mostly do the "noncommittal 'mmmms' and 'ohhhhs'" thing whenever she brings it up (which is becoming more and more often as she gets older).

Aunts/uncles/cousins just never talk about it. I'm sure they all assume I'm Xian, since I've never had occasion to tell them one way or another.

[WeR1_09]

Hi, all.

What a great forum! I did a search on the Internet for agnostic moms groups in my area (thinking 'yea right, a non-religious moms group in CHARLESTON, SC? no way') and, while I didn't find a local non-religious moms group, at least I found this. Very cool!

My husband and I are both agnostic and feel VERY out-of-place here in SC. The friends we have made are all very nice people, but believe so differently than us (them: conservative, Christian, republican. us: liberal, agnostic - and, if we had to choose a 'party,' would be 'democrats', for sure). I get tired of the Christian, Republican -- especially anti-Obama pre-election emails -- sent by friends. After one such email recently received, I decided I REALLY would like to see if there are more like-minded moms out there I could connect with (in our area would be GREAT, to possibly meet up with, playdates, etc.). But, if it's just this forum, I'm completely content with that too. It's nice to know we're not alone! :Peace:)

[jspring0308]

Hi, all.

What a great forum! I did a search on the Internet for agnostic moms groups in my area (thinking 'yea right, a non-religious moms group in CHARLESTON, SC? no way') and, while I didn't find a local non-religious moms group, at least I found this. Very cool!

My husband and I are both agnostic and feel VERY out-of-place here in SC. The friends we have made are all very nice people, but believe so differently than us (them: conservative, Christian, republican. us: liberal, agnostic - and, if we had to choose a 'party,' would be 'democrats', for sure). I get tired of the Christian, Republican -- especially anti-Obama pre-election emails -- sent by friends. After one such email recently received, I decided I REALLY would like to see if there are more like-minded moms out there I could connect with (in our area would be GREAT, to possibly meet up with, playdates, etc.). But, if it's just this forum, I'm completely content with that too. It's nice to know we're not alone! :Peace:)

I'm here!!! I'm in Mt. Pleasant and moved out here from Oregon 1.5 years ago; what a change. PM me and we can set up a meet & greet (i'm currently typing 1-handed w/babe asleep or i'd write you!:wink

[tiffani]

no time to read through the entire thread right now, so subbing! :thumb

my dh and I consider ourselves anti-theists (though we're tolerant of other viewpoints, of course :wink) but our 7 year old son is going through a christian phase and I needed you guys for support and advice! be back later to roll around in your wisdom!!

[Susana]

hi hi fellow atheist and agnostic mdcers :love

listen to this if you will...

so, now that my parents are both dead I have been thinking about what is left of them now. and all I can truly believe is that their physical bodies are in boxes inside waterproof vaults and they are decomposing. I don't think their souls are out in the universe bopping around waiting for another chance to come back as someone else, and I don't think they are with my grandmas and grandpas and dogs who have passed away in some spirit world. I just think their spirits are gone and their bodies are decomposing.

I know this isn't a fluffy feel-good way to look at it to most people but I'm all right with it.

My question is, why do other people in my life want to debate me on this? I got a comment on my blog tonight regarding *energy can't be created or destroyed* and so therefore my parents' spirits are out there somewhere.
well, you know, I don't think so. I think their spirits were inventions of their brains which are now dead.

why do people need to try to convince me otherwise?
It's sorta frustrating. I think I won't even respond to the comment. I don't feel like acknowledging it.

sigh.

[2xy]

My question is, why do other people in my life want to debate me on this? I got a comment on my blog tonight regarding *energy can't be created or destroyed* and so therefore my parents' spirits are out there somewhere.

Well....I'm a strong atheist, and I still believe that energy can't be created or destroyed. The thing is, I don't believe in spirits or souls. I think that the energy that drives me will just dissipate back into the universe when I die. The energy is still energy....it just moves along, and gets recycled into something else. Maybe bits of my energy will eventually reach the sun, and other bits will help bring life to a kitten, and yet others will make ocean currents. Science rocks. :wink

As for other people wanting to debate you, it's because they can't admit that their beliefs are just that....BELIEFS. They have convinced themselves that their beliefs are factual, can't imagine that anyone would disagree, and become upset and offended when someone dares to challenge what they cling to. It's like trying to take a security blanket away from a 3yo.

My opinion, however, is that if you post your thoughts on public forums, you're inviting critics. So I think that if you don't want people to comment or argue with you, maybe you should keep those things private.

[Susana]

My opinion, however, is that if you post your thoughts on public forums, you're inviting critics. So I think that if you don't want people to comment or argue with you, maybe you should keep those things private.

you're right. If I'm going to tell everyone who reads my blog what I think then I am opening my junk up for other's opinions of it. I need to work on my "who cares what you think" attitude.

[2xy]

I need to work on my "who cares what you think" attitude.

:thumb

[tiffani]

after a trip to the library to find books on religions of the world for my son, I was happy to find many that treat them all equally, and provide just the facts about each religion, what people get from them, etc, but does anyone know of any literature for kids that is written for atheist families? I would love to find a book that details (though not too much detail, he's only 7) the origins of all the different major religions, how they have been steered politically, etc... does this book exist?

:treehugger:

[misswerewolf]

yay - my kind of thread!

[treehugz]

Hey, I wanna join this tribe! My story: My dm is Church of God, my df is Methodist, so I went to both churches every week as a kid (my parents are still together, and they both go to both churches). At 16 I realized I didn't believe in god and used every excuse to avoid church. This didn't work, so I finally told my mom that I just didn't believe in god anymore... well, that didn't go as I hoped, and my mom said: either you go to church or you don't go anywhere else. No way I was stayin home at 16, so I sat thru church and became resentful toward the church and my mom. :irked: I've somewhat dealt with that.

Now, I'm an agnostic/humanist/somethin-er-other and married to a fundamentalist Christian who worries for my soul... :eyesroll long story how that happened... might tell it sometime, if I can stop lurking and start posting! :shy My family and my ils are fundamental xians. My family doesn't talk religion to me, but my mil talks religion all the time... for my dh's sake I've not been upfront about my beliefs, but now that I'm a mom, that can't last much longer. Whew, I think that sums it up. Awful lonely here in the bible belt, so I'm glad to be here!

[expat-mama]

just bumping us back into the mix.
:bump:

[nukii_luna]

Just wanted to say a quick "hi" - Joined a few weeks ago.

[Jaki]

Hi, I'm new here. Just thought I'd poke in here quickly. My husband and I are both atheists and for the most part (excluding extented family, but that's a whole other issue), we raise our children god/religion free.
We live in s small town with a strong christian influence, so we often bump into issues with other parents and the schools here.

Quick question - My younger son has shown an interest in joining the boy scouts (because he has friends in it), but from what I understand there's a strong religious influence involved. This may be a long shot, but does anyone know if there's an atheist version or if we can opt out of the religious parts?

TIA and nice to meet you all! :wave

-Jaki

[Theoretica]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e7IoSDKBAMU

DD and I just watched this yesterday...verrrrrry cool!

[KatWrangler]

I am here. I need to read all the posts though...

I am well I don't know what. :lol I was cradle Catholic, Husband was raised as a non practicing Southern Baptist. About 10 years ago I really started thinking about what exactly I believe and don't believe. My husband started it by saying he didn't believe in God anymore and that he thought the Bible was made up Fables. At the time I had a boss that was Atheist and some other people in my office. At first I thought "These people are crazy!" I listened to what they had to say and lightbulb went off. Over time things have happened in my life to make me doubt there is a God. So right now I consider myself Agnostic.

[KatWrangler]

Did you see this?

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/29585222/

Fifteen percent of respondents said they had no religion, an increase from 14.2 percent in 2001 and 8.2 percent in 1990, according to the American Religious Identification Survey.

[Theoretica]

That's interesting :)

Anyone here see Religulous? We just watched it last night...AWESOME!

[~Purity♥Lake~]

Did you see this?

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/29585222/

I've never been surveyed. :wink

[KatWrangler]

I've never been surveyed. :wink

:lol me either!

[tiffani]

Quick question - My younger son has shown an interest in joining the boy scouts (because he has friends in it), but from what I understand there's a strong religious influence involved. This may be a long shot, but does anyone know if there's an atheist version or if we can opt out of the religious parts?


I don't know how religious scouts actually is, in practice -- it probably differs by group, and you'd have to find out about the actual group you were thinking of joining.

there is this organization, spiral scouts (http://www.spiralscouts.org/), that is similar, but different -- it's a pagan organization, actually, but in practice could probably be adjusted to suit your needs... don't know if one exists in your area, but you could always start one! :thumb

[MrsRefney]

That's interesting :)

Anyone here see Religulous? We just watched it last night...AWESOME!

We saw it a couple weeks ago. Even though Bill Maher rubs me the wrong way most of the time (misogynistic, know-it-all, ya know) I thought it was a very well done documentary.

I have a friend who lives in Orlando. I offered him the price of admission to go to the Jesusland or whatever the name of that theme park is, and he's like No Way....I ain't even going there!!!! :)

[super mamabug]

Hi, I've been mostly lurking on MDC - using it as a resource, but spending most of my time on TBW. I've been posting more and thought I'd pop in here! Hi, I am an athiest leaning agnostic humanist and a mom of 2.5! =)

I loved religulous, saw it twice in theatres. A good laugh for sure.

[~Purity♥Lake~]

I loved religulous, saw it twice in theatres. A good laugh for sure.

I always wanted to see that, but never did. I watched Politically Incorrect a few times years and years ago and enjoyed that show.

[hollyvangogh]

I always wanted to see that, but never did. I watched Politically Incorrect a few times years and years ago and enjoyed that show.

I just saw it yesterday. It wasn't the best documentary I've seen by any stretch of the imagination but it is worth the time to watch it. As an ex-Mormon I wished Maher had spent just a little longer talking about Mormonism. :lol

[AuntieLiz]

So glad to find this tribe! Another Post-Mormon Humanist here. How many non-religous MDC'ers do we have in Utah? (It's not an easy place to be an atheist. LOL)
Glad to meet you mamas. :)

*subbing

[KLM99]

Although my parents were technically "Christian" we never did much for religious holidays other than the commercial things - Santa came on Christmas and we got presents under the tree, the Easter bunny comes and brings us a basket on Easter and we'd have big family dinners on both holidays. I always very much enjoyed the traditions - leaving carrots for the reindeer on Christmas eve, listening to Christmas music, having egg hunts on Easter, etc and of course the big dinners with family and friends.

I would like to establish traditions for our family along the same lines, but am having difficulty with myself and my husband (both of us are atheists) reconciling "celebrating" religious holidays in these totally not religious ways. What does everyone else do? How do you reconcile this apparent conflict with yourself and your children? What traditions have you come up with on your own to "celebrate" these commercial, societal days off that we have that coincide with religious holidays?

I'd like to post this elsewhere on the site, but I'm not sure where is appropriate! Hope to get some response here :) Thanks!

[Contrariety]

So glad to find this tribe! Another Post-Mormon Humanist here. How many non-religous MDC'ers do we have in Utah? (It's not an easy place to be an atheist. LOL)
Glad to meet you mamas. :)

*subbing

Ooo! Ooo! Me! Me! ... another atheist island floating in a sea of Utah County mormons. There's quite a few of us hanging around, I think. (Hey! You're in my DDC! :wave )

KLM99- I love holiday traditions. In our house we keep it strictly secular. As my kids get older, I think I'll take a little more time and research each holiday a bit more so I can teach my kids how the traditions got started, even if they spring from a religious place. It's really funny how I completely forgot that Easter is about Jesus. :lol To us, it's just about spring and re-birth and new life, KWIM? I was honestly baffled for a minute this weekend when my 4yr old niece kept talking about Jesus every other second. (though for WIW, I think she thinks about as much of JEsus as she does every other fictionalized holiday fixture, i.e. the easter bunny).

DH gets fussy when I suggest maybe toning down our own celebration of religious holidays, but I think I'm going to try and suggest that we have our own spring celebration on the first day of spring next year. We can still go to our parent's easter egg hunts, but for our own celebration, I'd like to keep it more in line with what it actually is to me: a celebration of spring.

[super mamabug]

Since none of the traditions you mentioned have anything to do with religion I see no reason to throw out tradition. We celebrate the solstice and equinox and take the opportunity to talk about the turning of the seasons, astronomy and other amazing scientific realities. The Easter Bunny/eggs represent fertility and spring, not Jesus resurrection.
These are not Christian images, they stole them from other traditions. There is not reason we can't do the same.

[doublyblessed]

*also subbing :love

i have recently realized that i do not believe in deities or a higher power. therefore i suppose that makes me an atheist, not even an agnostic anymore... :joy: yay, i know 'what label' i am!!! hee hee!

so...not sure what to say. i suppose i'll say i'm more metaphysical than anything...i believe in energy, essence...evolution. all those good 'e' words...evolving...

i have yet to see religulous. maybe i'll rent that today. i'd sure love to see it! religious people to me are highly fearful and wanting 'someone' to lean on...to me, as far as i see it, it is something to make very insecure people feel important and like they belong to a 'tribe'. it makes them feel self righteous and above others...and they therefore brainwash themselves to think that way is THE way...yeah. that is my psychological analysis. but you already knew that or you wouldn't be atheist. ha! :o

i fear death sometimes though, i must admit...it just seems so...final. esp when i may leave my children behind...that freaks me out. but that freaks most parents out, i'm sure...esp when they don't have a loving supportive significant other...and my mom is getting older so i don't know if she'd be around to care for my dc... i never should have signed up for establishing paternity w/ one of my ex's because he and his family are crazy nuts and my ex has become an extreme fundie christian...totally 'on fire' for jesus...thankfully he's in a state far from mine...i left at 35 wx prego. :thumb:joy: my dd's 'father' is a thing of the past...i never pursued establishing paternity, thank 'god'. (pun intended...)

and what is up w/ fundie christians thinking global warming doesn't exist??? and that the "age determination" is inaccurate of say, fossils and mummies and statues...?

its nice to be amongst those who feel similar about religion. so do most of you still think of yourselves as spiritual? how so?

[KLM99]

Since none of the traditions you mentioned have anything to do with religion I see no reason to throw out tradition. We celebrate the solstice and equinox and take the opportunity to talk about the turning of the seasons, astronomy and other amazing scientific realities. The Easter Bunny/eggs represent fertility and spring, not Jesus resurrection.
These are not Christian images, they stole them from other traditions. There is not reason we can't do the same.

Love love love the two comments about Easter being a celebration of spring and seasons and fertility. Yesterday actually I asked DH - "wait, what do eggs and the easter bunny have to do with Jesus?" and neither one of us could come up with an answer. That's because they don't :)

To super mamabug - would you consider yourself a part of any "religion" or group that generally celebrates the solstice and equinox or is that just your familiy choosing what you'd like to celebrate?

[~Purity♥Lake~]

Since none of the traditions you mentioned have anything to do with religion I see no reason to throw out tradition. We celebrate the solstice and equinox and take the opportunity to talk about the turning of the seasons, astronomy and other amazing scientific realities. The Easter Bunny/eggs represent fertility and spring, not Jesus resurrection.
These are not Christian images, they stole them from other traditions. There is not reason we can't do the same.

Exactly. Thieves. They didn't want anyone to remember there are other religions out there in the world.

Love love love the two comments about Easter being a celebration of spring and seasons and fertility. Yesterday actually I asked DH - "wait, what do eggs and the easter bunny have to do with Jesus?" and neither one of us could come up with an answer. That's because they don't :)


Yup.

[hollyvangogh]

Someone on a local mommy board was talking about Easter eggs being about Jesus being resurrected so I said:

Actually Easter eggs are from the Ostara myth (Ostara/Eostre/Eastre). The goddess Ostara turned a bird into a rabbit. The rabbit could fly but was still sad that it wasn't a bird. So Ostara let it lay eggs once a year.

Weird. I know.

I imagine I might ruffle some feathers by pointing out that truth (that Christian Easter appropriated a whole bunch of stuff from pagan beliefs). But, so be it. It is what it is. :p

[doublyblessed]

ok...WHAT is up w/ this belief............................................ .......i saw my therapist today (she is at my countie's mental health dept. so i didn't get to choose my therapist...sigh!) & we were for some reason talking about god/higher power as we were talking about the ego & emotions (DBT stuff) and i told her no, i'm not religious. that i don't believe in deities actually existing... she said something i thought was absolutely obscene...something like, if one does not believe in god, there has to be a god to not believe in one............i was like wtf?!?!?!?!?! :eyesroll i said i don't know about THAT!!!!!!!!!!!!

this same woman said its ok to give a swat to children once in a while.....to that i was like HUH?! (i do NOT believe this to be 'ok' at all...........ever!) & we also disagree on how to raise/discipline children....................she thinks consequences and rewards are not punitive. whatever. i take her advice/opinions w/ a grain of salt............a very very small grain of salt...and leave them at the door when i leave. :wink

[tiffani]

hollyvangogh, that's great! what reply did you get?

doublyblessed, is this required therapy? are you getting anything positive out of it? A very good friend of mine was told to spank her dd by some (likely gov't funded) counselor years ago -- I was shocked and dismayed that anyone would actually advocate that for a stressed out single mama -- lots of people (myself included) have made the awful mistake of spanking in frustration, but it's certainly not, and never should be, considered a tool in the parenting toolbox!

ya know, imho...

and more on topic, I don't have any issue with celebrating whatever holiday in whatever way I like -- we sometimes examine where certain traditions began, but mostly we just enjoy the family time, the traditions and, of course, the chocolate! :wink

[Storm Bride]

Although my parents were technically "Christian" we never did much for religious holidays other than the commercial things - Santa came on Christmas and we got presents under the tree, the Easter bunny comes and brings us a basket on Easter and we'd have big family dinners on both holidays. I always very much enjoyed the traditions - leaving carrots for the reindeer on Christmas eve, listening to Christmas music, having egg hunts on Easter, etc and of course the big dinners with family and friends.

I would like to establish traditions for our family along the same lines, but am having difficulty with myself and my husband (both of us are atheists) reconciling "celebrating" religious holidays in these totally not religious ways. What does everyone else do? How do you reconcile this apparent conflict with yourself and your children? What traditions have you come up with on your own to "celebrate" these commercial, societal days off that we have that coincide with religious holidays?

I'd like to post this elsewhere on the site, but I'm not sure where is appropriate! Hope to get some response here :) Thanks!

Jumping in from nowhere, because the thread title caught my eye. I've only read a few posts near the end.

I'm agnostic, and was raised agnostic. My mom was raised Christian, and lost her faith at a very early age. My dad...I'm honestly not even sure, but religion wasn't part of our lives at all (beyond learning a few hymns, because my mom liked to play piano, and had learned them as a child).

We always celebrated Christmas and Easter. To me, they were/are secular, cultural holidays, not Christian ones. Santa (in his modern incarnation), reindeer, Christmas trees, stockings, candy canes, easter eggs, easter bunnies, etc. have little or nothing to do with Christianity. To me, they have nothing to do with it at all. They're family traditions that I grew up with and am passing on to my kids. Yes - for some people, they also function within a religious framework, but that doesn't mean I have to apply that to my own celebrations, yk?

There's never been a conflict for me. Christmas is a time for family and gifts and good food and music. Easter is a time for dying eggs, and eating chocolate and talking about chicks and bunnies (I took dd and ds2 to the farm today to see if the baby chicks had hatched yet, and to look at the baby rabbits). The story of Christ only rarely comes up and it's more of a cultural context thing than anything else.

Good luck finding what works for you!

[honeyhaze]

Christopher Hitchens takes on five theologians:

Long video, but worthwhile!

http://www.tangle.com/view_video.php?viewkey=175ad626166c55fdb819

[hollyvangogh]

hollyvangogh, that's great! what reply did you get?



Not much so far. That's good with me.

[AuntieLiz]

Ooo! Ooo! Me! Me! ... another atheist island floating in a sea of Utah County mormons. There's quite a few of us hanging around, I think. (Hey! You're in my DDC! :wave )Whoa! Indeed I am! What are the odds? Nice to see you here, Contrariety!! :D

Great visit w/my midwife today. On the client info/background form, she has a question that asks about any special religious, ethnic or cultural birth customs that we might want her to know about. I had written, "None. (We are non-religious humanists)" on the form and it turns out... she's a humanist, too! I know that a midwife or hcp shouldn't care one way or another what her clients' religious preferences are, but around here atheists are treated like criminals or lepers or something, and I admit there was a teensy little part of me that was afraid she might have a problem with our "lifestyle." (ugh) Come to find out we are both ex-mo's! (Again... what are the odds?) I'm increasingly glad I chose this MW over the others in the pool. :love

(in fact.. i need to go check that old thread in the DDC; you and I might have the same midwife! wouldn't that be a riot! LOL)

ETA: i was close! ;)

[*CM*]

We also struggle with holidays. I wasn't raised in a religious way at all, but both my parents had been raised Christian so they continued to celebrate Christian holidays in a secular way. We had the tree and stockings and Santa at Christmas and my parents created an Easter egg hunt in our house at easter. We had big family gatherings during those holidays too which I enjoyed immensely and want to have now. My extended family celebrated in religious ways, but my parents shielded my brother and I from that aspect of the gatherings as much as they could.

My DH grew up in a Reform Jewish household. They celebrated Passover, Yom Kippur, Rosh Hashanah and Chanukah. My DH, like me, is agnostic and really could care less about holidays except that we have children who want to fit in with their peers and he wants to give them that.

I went through many years of searching to find where I belong and along the way I converted to Judaism so my DH and I do have that religion in common to some extent, just our experiences with it have been different.

Before we had kids we just celebrated whatever holiday was being celebrated depending on who's family we were with and ignored the religious stuff. It's different now. We have a 6 year old and 4 year old and another baby on the way and we don't want them exposed to religion a whole lot yet. I've also changed a bunch. I'm pretty atheist now and really don't want to celebrate holidays that are seen by our society as a religious holiday. My DH doesn't want his heritage forgotten as our kids celebrate Christian holidays, even in a secular way, so for a few years we were celebrating both Christian and Jewish holidays and trying to play down the religious aspect of it. Not easy to do. It doesn't help that now my ILs are terrified that our kids won't get any exposure to Jewish traditions (we recently moved further away from them) and are sending all sorts of propaganda our way, even though my FIL seems to be agnostic himself. It's a quandry for us.

This past December, we tried to shift away from Christmas/Chanukah and do just a Winter Solstice celebration. It was the first year we had a tree in our house and I tried to tie it to the solstice celebration rather than Christmas, but by now, the kids have Christmas ingrained in their heads. They actually felt shorted because they didn't get to celebrate both holidays. But they did because my ILs didn't play along and sent chanukah stuff and the kids begged and begged to light the menorah and we gave in but didn't recite the prayers. My family played along and joined us for a solstice celebration, but it was just our usual Christmas party with a different name so to me it was no different and then they brought over Christmas gifts on Christmas day so I guess they didn't really play along. There were still WAY too many gifts (this is another issue I have with these holidays aside from the religious issue) and the kids just got annoyed with our attempts to talk about the solstice. I need to figure out a way to just do one celebration and know that it will be a difficult transition for the kids the first few years. It would be easier if my DH and I weren't from different religious/cultural backgrounds. I totally understand his desire to teach the kids about his heritage, unfortunately, religion is very closely tied to his heritage so it makes it hard.

We haven't done anything to celebrate Easter. The kids know about it from their friends, but we don't celebrate it in any way. They went to a baseball game on Easter. We also didn't celebrate Passover this year, but mostly because we live too far away from my DH's family to go every year. Even when we do go, it's not to celebrate the holiday, but to see family. Hopefully, as the kids get older and we talk more about what the holiday is for and why we don't celebrate it, then they will understand and appreciate the time with family.

I don't think that really gives you any ideas for reconciling your agnostic views with religious holidays, but you aren't alone in your internal conflict about the issue. I think about it alot. More than I should probably!

[super mamabug]

Sorry I didn't see your question! No we are a completely secular family. I, however see no reason to throw out our cultural traditions when it comes to raising my kids. Egg hunts, family meals, gifts in the winter are all wonderful traditions that are waaaaay older than the religious affiliations they currently hold. Cultures around the world celebrate these times in one way or another. I believe that the awesome way of the natural world is way more exciting and awe-inspiring than religion. I hope to pass that passion on to my kids! So we take the opportunity to teach about astronomy and seasons etc while still enjoying the traditions of our society and culture.

For more info I really recommend reading the essay "Losing the holy, keeping the day" from Parenting Beyond Belief.

http://books.google.com/books?id=cgrORLhX2UMC&pg=PA80&lpg=PA80&dq=losing+the+holy+keeping+the+day+parenting&source=bl&ots=eZP210GBsx&sig=6r56xNzSo-qcK0eupiPsHQL687o&hl=en&ei=kS7mServE9LunQfn5OmpCQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=4

[Niamh]

I'm a post-Mormon who is not sure where she sits spiritually yet, but is quite sure where she *doesn't* sit. Organized religions make my skin crawl now, so any of those are out.

I'm not sure I'm atheist or agnostic. I've classified myself as an apatheist - don't care if there's a god or not - since I left Mormonism. I'm spiritual, for sure, but drawn to Eastern spirituality and Pagan (earth acknowledging) rituals, not any type of 'religion'.

I am in the unique position of being comfortable not having any religious beliefs, but feeling it necessary to counter the religious holidays with something as fun, exciting, or meaningful *outside* of religion since my husband, my extended family, and my in-laws are all still active, practicing, sometimes fanatical Mormons. I have at least one child who is very spiritual and could easily turn to what I believe is a harmful religion if she sees it as the only outlet for her spirituality.

So that's where I am. Glad to find this group!

[hollyvangogh]

I'm a post-Mormon

Hi! :wave

You're not the only one! :)

[readermaid]

Hi everyone!

I'm a longtime lurker at MDC, but only recently jumping in to comment. I just found this tribe, and, while I don't really self-identify as an atheist/agnostic (my beliefs are in flux), I am definitely not religious and I definitely want to raise my daughter secularly. I am not sure yet how we will celebrate (or not) holidays, whether we will attend a UU church, or if we need to tell my mom she can't take my DD to church with her when she visits.

Anyway, I'm glad to find this thread. I'm subbing. :)

[Contrariety]

(in fact.. i need to go check that old thread in the DDC; you and I might have the same midwife! wouldn't that be a riot! LOL)

ETA: i was close! ;)

Not quite the same midwife, but close indeed. I assume mine isn't of LDS persuasion, though... not that I'd really care too much about having an LDS midwife, so long as she wasn't insisting on priesthood blessings or something like that.

We really used to have a good ex-mo tribe, but it got lost when MDC restructured a while back. Someone should start a new one, eh? Being ex-mo is different than just having been christian and then no longer christian, you know? It's a culture that is pounded into your bones, into every aspect of your life, especially when you are born into it. FWIW, I never believed the church was true, even as a kid, so I really tried to up the cultural stuff so that I could pass. My LDS friends are really amused at how much of the culture I retain even though I haven't even self identified as LDS for over 10 years.

[hollyvangogh]

Someone should start a new one, eh?

Are you volunteering? :p

[Contrariety]

:o No way. I know I'd put it in the wrong place and get in trouble for hurting someone's feelings.

FYT? Religious studies? Spirituality?

ETA: Do I eye spy the big fat "Y" in your (I'm assuming) engagement photo? How things change, eh?

[Theoretica]

It would go in Spirituality, unless you're looking for a discussion/debate, then it'd go in Religious Studies. HTH :)

So....DD and I were grocery shopping yesterday and were proselytized to AGAIN. I swear we are in the most conservative part of the country...and it's not the south!! I must have Atheist tattooed onto my forehead or something...good grief! It was this little old lady inviting me to her church up the road from my house. I know the church, they are VERY conservative/fundamentalist/evangelical Baptist. They come door knocking every spring/summer...ugh.

Anyways, I took her tract and said thank you and threw it away in trash can in the next aisle. One of these days I'll have the guts to say "We're atheist, no thank you". But it'd start WWIII, so I have some hesitation about it. YKWIM?

[hollyvangogh]

ETA: Do I eye spy the big fat "Y" in your (I'm assuming) engagement photo? How things change, eh?

Maybe...:bag:

It's one of my best pictures and I figure most people won't notice nor know what it is.

One of these days I'll have the guts to say "We're atheist, no thank you". But it'd start WWIII, so I have some hesitation about it. YKWIM?

I totally understand. Sometimes it's just not worth the conflict, especially when the chances of changing minds is slim to none.

[Theoretica]

Exactly, it's not like granny-blue-hair is going to say ohhhh ok well I see your point. And I'm certainly not going to fall into epileptic spasms of repentance....so what's the point?

I just hope someday it's not such a freaky thing that you have to even THINK about being careful who you mention it to. It's cool to be gay, it's cool to be multiracial. But atheist?? OMG....THEY are psychos! :eyesroll :lol

[hollyvangogh]

It's cool to be gay, it's cool to be multiracial. But atheist?? OMG....THEY are psychos! :eyesroll :lol

I'd say it all depends on where you are. It's definitely not cool to be gay or multiracial to some people in certain places. And that's sad. :(

But yeah...it is weird how people can't seem to understand how someone could be atheist. That's why I like this quote:

I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours. - Stephen Roberts

[Theoretica]

Omg i love that quote!!! Thank you so much!!!!