Support for moms who can't breastfeed

[Laurel]

(OK, deep breath.... here we go....)

I've been wanting to start this thread for many weeks, but haven't had the nerve. After hearing several MDC moms in the last few days express some intense feelings related to this topic, I've decided to go for it. We need a tribe of our own!

My story is all over MDC in bits and pieces, so I won't go into detail here. Suffice it to say, my ds is adopted, I spent six months trying to induce lactation, and it didn't work. I do consider my experience a success considering the circumstances, and I have NO guilt whatsoever about my efforts.

I think there is almost nothing lonelier than being a formula/bottle-feeding mom in a culture of passionate breastfeeders. We often feel that we do not fit anywhere. We certainly don't fit on a "mainstream" parenting board, because our hearts are "AP". (I use those terms only for lack of a more concise way to say what I mean.) We live under constant judgment and stereotype. When we go to the grocery store, we worry about who will be making assumptions about us based on what's in our cart. We worry that they will never want to get past first impressions and give us the benefit of the doubt.

We often don't know where to turn when we need answers to questions about our child's health or to other issues, like feeding solid foods. We can't go to a regular parenting board and expect to get answers that reflect our parenting style and values. We can't ask questions here without risking misunderstanding, or simply that most people don't have experience with what we need.

All this is on top of the grief and disappointment of missing out on the experience of nursing, of having our bodies fail us, and on top of the concern for our children's well-being and how we'll meet their needs in spite of our limitations. (I'm actually not "grieving" at the moment, but I have in the past, and know many moms still are.

I feel I have to explain and tell my story so often--it gets cumbersome. But if I don't explain, I can just see the wheels turning in people's heads. I try to stay away from the "formula is evil" threads, but I can't--I just have to go see what's being assumed about me. I can't resist posting on them either.

Anyway, I'd love to hear your story, your issues, your worries, your frustrations--whatever you'd like to share about your breastfeeding and bottlefeeding experiences!

[Lucky Charm]

Hi Lisa,
Can i offer support and enouragement, even though i breastfed?

my shoulders here if you need it.
Lisa

[Bladestar5]

Hi. I guess I don't count for moms who can't-at least with this baby, but I did have major trouble feeding my son naturally.
I was a first-time mom with very little to no support. My mom only bottlefed, and the people I knew who breastfed lived far away. My obgyn would not give me something or recommend holistics to increase my supply. At 4wks old, I called the doctor after many sleepless nights and horrible days with a screaming baby and sore breasts. It was about 4am, and the doctor told me to just give the baby a bottle. That was the beginning to an end. I breastfed a couple times a day, just for the immunity and closeness. I had a newborn who would eat an 8oz bottle of formula right after nursing, so that prooved my theory of a low supply. I really blame my obgyn for not helping me to breastfeed exclusively.
This time around, my breasts are finally developed, and I am able to exclusively breastfeed my baby. It has been 4mos and I am learning more every day. I send support to those of you who cannot nurse, or have nursing troubles.
Edited to add that he self-weaned at 5mos.

[Celestial]

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[The Lucky One]

I, too, am a formula feeding mama. But never for one second have I not considered myself AP. We co-sleep always, sling, no CIO, and of course always always always held and cuddled during bottle feeding.

Our ds is 14 months now.

My bf'ing failure story is long, but it basically boiled down to a baby with severe reflux who didn't want to nurse for longer than 30 seconds because of the pain and lots of bad advice. I didn't know about MDC at the time. If I had, I may have stuck it out a little longer (we went nine weeks), or at least would have strongly considered exclusive pumping (damn, I had a great supply).

I went through a mourning period when we made the switch, because I had envisioned so strongly nursing him through toddlerhood. But now, I look at my strong, healthy, happy, well-adjusted baby and know that I did my best, and that he is thriving in every way.

Thank you, Lisa, for starting this.

lisa

[sarahmae1]

Hello. I think it's great that you started this thread! I sometimes feel like maybe I shouldn't be here because I'm not as into a lot of the 'natural parenting' part of this, but anyways... I bf for about 6mos. then ff'd until my ds was 14mos. I def. consider myself AP, my ds has never cio, we co-sleep, always fed on demand, respond to cues, etc. and trying our best at using gentle discipline.
I just wanted to offer you some support as well, and also I host a board about starting solids on a more mainstream site so if you have any questions about that I'd be glad to try and help you out!

[sweetfeet]

.

[mama2girls]

What a wonderful support thread! I have been able (fortunately) to bf both of my kids, but have several friends who were either unable to due to supply issues or couldn't because of medication necessary to their survival. I try to support them, and they I. What's important is how you parent your child, not how you feed them (and I can lay down on the chopping block now, right?)

[Moon]

I would also like to thank you for this thread, Laurel, you speak directly to my heart. It kills me that I could not continue to nurse Sophie, and I have questions about transitioning her to solids, too, at 16 months, she is still drinking 7-8 bottles a day, along with three meals which are sketchy because she hasn't any molars.

I breastfed Maeve until she was 18 months, and Sophie till about 6 months. I was unable to keep Sophie nursing longer despite agonies of effort.

In another thread, I was being "educated" to wit, "And Moon, I know it's true that SOME formula feeders have legitimate reasons for doing so (adoption, surgery, chemotherapy, etc.), but the vast, vast majority do not. I have a girlfriend from Rwanda, and she has never even heard of a woman who couldn't breastfeed. I think it's very interesting that in countries where women have no access to formula, 99.99% of them can miraculously breastfeed.

The next time someone assumes you didn't work hard enough, long enough, or were smart enough, and that they know it all, point out that in, for example, Rwanda, children are dying in huge numbers because they are malnourished. It took me about 30 seconds to find this WHO article
http://www.who.int/inf-fs/en/fact109.html

Thanks again, Laurel. :hug

[RileysMom]

Glad to see this thread. I had sort of a double whammy with dd and bfing. First of all I had a breast reduction when I was 20 (14 years ago). I worked my tush off when I was pregnant, educating myself about bfing after a reduction, bought a lact aid, I was *ready* and *determined*. :thumb :thumb :thumb

Then dd was born via an emergency c section at 29 weeks and was in the NICU for 11 weeks.

:bawl :bawl :bawl :bawl :bawl :bawl

So, I pumped and pumped and pumped and pumped....never got her to the breast (she had lots of feeding issues and reflux)

I fought like a wild hyena momma to get breast milk for her from the milk bank and a couple of close friends helped also. So she had mom's milk until about 16 months and now has goat's milk. But it was a disheartening and exhausting battle.

Sometimes, when I think about having another baby, my breasts ache. I want to bf SO badly. I literally think about it every day....everytime dd cries and I want to bf her....everytime she pats my breasts....and she's 20 months old!

Feeling the judgement coming from other AP was (and is) so depressing. If only they knew how much I would pay to be able to whip a boob out for dd!

And I hate feeling like I have to go through my whole story just so they stop looking at me with "that look"!
:af :af :af :af :af :af
I thought about typing it all out and just handing it to people!!

Great thread and big hugs to us all!:grouphug :grouphug :grouphug :grouphug


<I LOVE all our smilies)

[gurumama]

Rileysmamma,

I too had a breast reduction, and I have a Reilly! I bf AND ff--Reilly is 11.5 mo and gets about 10 oz of formula a day. He gets the rest from me. With ds1 (who is 4.5) I supplemented about 18 oz at this age, so my supply has definitely increased with child #2.

I ALWAYS have to include "I ff 10 oz a day due to a breast reduction and supply issues" on these boards--there are some EXTREMELY judgmental folks on these boards (won't name names but I'm thinking them....) and frankly, if one more person lists "chimpanzee or primate milk" as being better than formula, I'm going to :cuss :hammer :cuss :hammer :cuss :hammer . Are they going to hold down the chimp while I hook up the Pump 'n Go? :eyes

I do think that there are some mothers out there who breezily dismiss breastfeeding, and others who "try" but stop when it gets even slightly difficult. HOWEVER, I haven't seen ANYONE on these boards like that, and if someone is on these boards, they're here to educate themselves and to progress as a parent in every way.

We circ'd my 4 yo but left our 11 mo intact. Should I beat myself up every minute for circing ds1, or should I be glad that we learned from that and left ds2 intact? Same goes for bfing.

You do what you know at the time. And sometimes, sadly, even being educated and having lots of support isn't enough. I see a lot of absolutists here--but most folks on these boards are flexible and real, mothers with enough experience and introspection to know that we're all just human beings trying to do our best.

[Abalee]

Oh my gosh -- I am so excited to see this thread! I didn't even have time to read all the replies-- I'm on vacation at the moment, but I just wanted to say that I am THRILLED by this discussion and am so happy to meet other mamas with my issues. I got a lot of support here when James was born and I found out I couldn't breastfeed, but it's been hard sometimes on these boards, since I feel so awkward that I can't nurse him, so I rarely post, but this is great...anyway, more later, when I have time to post a real reply. At the moment, I'm just happy to be here.


mom to James 7/14/02:) :)

[The Lucky One]

Moon, what kind of solids and how much is Sophie eating a day?

We're having the same type of problem with our ds. He still gets 5-6 bottles a day and 2-3 solid meals. He only has 5 1/2 teeth, so I'm terrified of choking. I feel like I'm giving Aidan the same food over and over again. Cheerios. Cheese. Mac&Cheese. Whole wheat bread. Eggs. Peanut butter. Green beans....and a few other things. He's also really picky.

What kind of stuff is your Sophie eating? Our Aidan is 14 months.

lisa

Ahhh, I can't tell you the sigh of relief I feel when I can say the word 'bottle' here and know that others understand and won't half-answer my question all the while inserting a guilt trip. KWIM?

[Laurel]

Wow! I had a feeling all of you were out there1 I'm so glad I decided to find out for sure!

I too find it frustrating that every time a ff mom pipes up with a complaint about being judged, someone tells her that of course they don't mean her, she's the exception, why would she dream of being hurt by it--and of course, what should she expect being on these boards? I wish people could understand that behind that nameless bottle of formula is a real mom with real challenges and real feelings. Sometimes I feel like some would think we are a lesser part of this community whose opinions don't quite matter as much because we must bottlefeed.

I am curious how you all cope with this in a productive way, as 1) I recognize that this is reality that isn't going away, and 2) I respect that every mom has the right to her opinion and feelings, even if they are different than mine. I DO expect it being part of a community like this, and I would really hate things to become too watered down, because I'm sure all of DO support and advocate for breastfeeding. I guess what I've had to do is sit down and remind myself that why should I let the opinions of some stranger on the internet who I'll never meet hurt me. Who really cares what so-and-so thinks? I'm never going to meet them IRL, and they're never going to meet me. I also tell myself over and over that people only put the part of themselves here that they want people to see. Maybe that mom can breastfeed, but she has something somewhere that she can't give that I can.

Someone also mentioned something else I wanted to bring up: using donated milk. It sounds like some of you have been able to do this long term, but I'm curious for how many it's really been a feasible option. I hate hearing, "I would never, never, never give my child formula--I'd get donated milk, use a wetnurse, ANYTHING but give formula." I say, "Never say never." I think this is a statement that's easy to make if you have never actually been in the situation. When people say "never", it makes me wonder things like--would breastfeeding/milk truly be worth ANY price you or your child might have to pay to do it? Not just a high price (I think we would all agree it's worth a high price), but ANY price? My feeling was that I would do just about anything regardless of how painful or inconvenient it was for me, but once my ds started becoming negatively affected (which he did after a number of months), how could I continue to push it? If you used donated milk, how did it come about? If you didn't, why not?

ITA with gurumama on the chimpanzee comment! Don't they realize how demeaning and vindictive that is?

Oh, and to all you who can breastfeed and want to give support, of course you are welcome and loved! I think there is nothing most of us appreciate more than an understanding and nonjudgmental friend and advocate. Please don't be offended by the venting.

[RileysMom]

RE: using donated milk...

DD qualified for milk bank milk because she was a preemie. I had enough supply for about 4 months (pumping) before my supply started dwindling and she started eating more. So from about 4 months until about 11 months, I got milk bank milk (screened and pastuerized). After that, I had 2 very close friends from church that I totally trusted and that had enough milk to feed a small country! They supplemented my supply until about 16 months.

It is not easy and if DD hadn't been a preemie, I probably wouldn't have gotten as much support. People were really willing to go out of their way to help me. I'm still very thankful!

As far as the expense, dd was on medicaid for her first year and they paid for the milk bank milk, which was about $3 an OZ!!!! My insurance paid for a pump for me since dd was in the NICU. I reused the glass bottles that the milk bank milk came in for me and my friends to pump into. So, expense wise, it didn't cost hardly anything.....just alot of fighting to qualify for the milk, etc....

[mama2girls]

I am so glad that the milk bank was there for you. It makes me feel good to know that there are babies who benefit! We just got a local milk bank this summer and altho I can't donate (antidepressant that I really can't go off), I support them financially. And I donate all my formula samples to our local food pantry for the crisis nursery. And why do I get dirty looks for telling other bfing moms that I DO take the freebies from the manufacturers. If I were in crisis, I would want to know that someone could feed my baby. It's not fair, is it ladies? Either you're damned if you do and damned if you don't.

And I love this quote: Maybe that mom can breastfeed, but she has something somewhere that she can't give that I can.

That's it exactly. I have had ppd with both dds. And I bet half of my days I'd trade you to feel normal and give them formula vs. being able to bf and dealing with antidepressants and mood swings and all. Ok, I'll quit hogging your thread, but I wanted to give you a big :thumb and :grouphug for doing what YOU think is best for your child.

[sozobe]

I breastfeed, but had a dicey start, and am very mindful of how easily it could have gone another way. I was directed here by Moon, and just want to offer my support, as well. I mentioned in the thread Moon referred to that I have a friend (yes, still a friend) who purposely weaned her dd at 4 months so that she could go on a solo vacation, and I find that pretty tough to understand, but I do. And going through all of these efforts TO breastfeed and not being able to... well, I'm very sad that you're judged for that.

[mom3]

Just wanted to offer my support to all you dedicated mothers here. I've been very lucky in that bf is no problem for me. It is a secret dream of mine that one day, in the not too distant future, that people will be able to assume any mother giving her child a bottle is doing so because she truly cannot bf because support, information, and education will be available to every mother who needs it and it will be expressed bm in those bottles because the milk banks will have increased in numbers sufficient to supply every hungry baby. Come dream with me :love .

[Laurel]

Oh, and one more thing on my mind... I think it's also hard because in the regular parenting world, people just don't understand the magnitude of the loss. I'm on a "parenting after infertility" email list, and when I've talked about my feelings of loss there, I just get told, "What's the big deal? Now you know, I couldn't bf my baby and s/he's totally bonded and healthy." They simply won't validate the loss. These are the same women who would be all over you with empathy because you lost the experience of pregnancy--nobody would imagine undermining that one--yet they can't see that for me, nursing is actually a greater loss than pregnancy at this point.

I mostly do fine with it right now. I know I made the right decisions. The main time I have a hard time with it is when he's sick and I can't comfort him that way. And I HATE having to wash and fill bottles! I long for the convenience of bf'ing.

[laf369]

Laurel, love your screen name!!!

My very dear friend adopted their son after many years of fertility problems. She attempted to induce lactation and had a small margin of success before they got custody of their first DD. Sadly, within 24 hours the birthmom changed her mind and they had to relinquish the baby. Friend experienced some discomfort and engorgement and her breasts were painful reminders of the baby who was gone.

About two months later, after my friends had resolved themselves to a childfree existence, a pediatrician friend of their pediatrician friend had a patient who was adopting her baby out. My friend was very gun-shy (of course) and proceeded cautiously. The birthmom decided on my friends at the end of November, baby was born in December. Friend was not about to try inducing lactation once more, only to again experiencing the pain of losing another baby.

Anyway, long story short, when my DS came home from the hospital my friend (who happens to be my neighbor) was over pretty frequently and expressed a lot of regret that she couldn't bear children or nurse her baby (and some envy that I was doing both). We had a lot of talks about it and shed a lot of tears together. Attempting to breastfeed is just one of the ways we try to give our children the best possible start. She did that when she brought her baby home from the hospital.

I'm sure I've been guilty of being insensitive to FF Mamas and I'm sorry. My issues don't lie with mamas who have to formula feed, I have problems with the ethics of the formula companies who successfuly sabotage nursing relationships that would most likely succeed otherwise. I had some problems in the beginning and I was certainly tempted to give Andrew some of the free samples I received during my pregnancy and I had a history of BF'ers behind me.

Everyone's circumstances differ greatly and I will try to think of you ladies when I catch myself judging a woman I see FF'ing her baby. Even if she is part of the "stereotype" I'll feel better. I mean, how much will my judgement affect her parenting anyway?

FWIW: I cric'd my son and terribly regret it. The OB barely removed any foreskin (his glans cannot be seen unless he has an erection) so that is sorta bitterweet because he won't necessarily experience the effects a circ'd man does, but he won't be fully intact AND he had to expeience that terrible trauma for no real reason (except my own ignorance). I liken my experience with it to possibly your experiences with not nursing. I mean, at the time I didn't have all the facts, I voiced concerns about circ'ing and everyone shooed them away ("He'll look like his dad." "He'll look like his friends." "It's cleaner." "It's better for his sexual partner." ) and now I have more knowledge and so my guilt and regret is all over the place. I cannot visit the Case Against Circ board because of how badly it hurts. Sorry to go so far off topic.

So anyway, love all the mamas here and love their babes too.

[Abalee]

I just wanted to chime in with my story...James was born in July, and I had always planned to breastfeed/co-sleep/sling/AP, etc...well, after a hospital stay at 3 days old due to a dehydration-induced fever, and weeks of lactation consultants, a wonderful LC/MD finally told me that she was pretty sure I simply don't have enough milk glands to produce a full supply...horrible as that was to hear, at some level it helped to know that it wasn't MY FAULT (or at least, it was my body's fault, but not my trying). I pumped and pumped, and all I could get was 1/4 ounch at a time - I kid you not. Anyway, James continues to nurse for comfort, and when he wakes up at night, but his primary nourishment has always been formula.

Apparently, 1-2% of women just don't have the full equipment...and although all the literature says "almost all women CAN breastfeed," I've met a decent number of women either on line or IRL, who have my problem, or some variation. And these are women who I believe have TRIED as hard as they could to bf their children. So I know I am much less likely to judge when I see a woman with a bottle. In many ways I think this has made me a much more tolerant and less judgemental parent...I now realize there are often complicated stories behind all of the choices we make. And those stories are not visible to the outside world.

It was so hard for me to accept that I'd be a bottle-wielding mama - and I am still sensitive to it when we are out and I have to pull out a bottle. I'd give a lot to be able to pull out my breast instead, but it's not a viable option. But I know that I am doing what's best for my baby, and he is a wonderfully happy, healthy 8 month old.

Anyway, this brings me to my question about solids -- James doesn't like them much, but should I try to give him more to get him off of "evil formula"? I just have no idea how to approach this. All advice welcome!



mom to James 7/14/02

[Laurel]

Abalee, that's exactly the question I had about solids: Do ff babies need to start solids earlier since formula is not as nutritionally complete?

My ds actually loves solids. I tried to hold him off, but he was begging, so we started at 5 1/2 months. Then, during a month of illness and teething, he refused them. Now, he's been gung ho for the last week or two. I'm still not pushing much--he eats maybe twice a day, purely at our mutual convenience, and only maybe the equivalent of 1/2 small jar max.

Als, how much do you replicate a nursing-style feeding experience with bottles? Does anyone worry about overfeeding? I did alot in the first months (when he was still nursing but getting formula through the lact-aid). Now, he is very much a baby who wants to take small nips all day long--if he were nursing, he'd be the one hanging out in the sling snacking whenever the mood hit him, but never sitting down for a full "meal". I find this hard to manage sometimes, as it is not nearly as convenient with bottles that have to be warmed and washed. The instruction to not reuse a bottle that's been drunk out of if there's formula left got thrown out the window months ago! My worry now is getting him to eat enough, and I sometimes wonder if I should have gone with encouraging him to take four or five bigger "meals" a day.

[Bladestar5]

I just wanted to remind the moms with one baby, that had low supplies, that it is possible with the 2nd baby to have enough milk. I asked the doctor why was I able to exclusively nurse this baby, but not the first one, and she said it is quite common, and that sometimes the milk glands aren't quite fully formed the first time around. :p

[Celestial]

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[gurumama]

abalee's story got me thinking. i wonder if low milk supply is on the rise in general. could environmental issues be hurting breastfeeding? or lifestyle/stress? food/diet? when you consider how breast cancer rates have skyrocketed, could there be something going on we don't understand? i don't mean to be alarmist--just wondering... i personally know two women like abalee--first kid, pumped and nursed like crazy, but never enough to feed the babe. they relaxed, ate enough, etc.

[Laurel]

I've been reading the book Healthy Parents, Better Babies by Francesca Naish and Janette Roberts. It's about preconception healthcare. They put infertility, pregnancy loss, difficult pregnancies, difficult births, and breastfeeding problems all along the same continuum--and feel that all these things are definitely impacted by by nutritional, lifestyle, and environmental issues. They specifically mention low supply. I don't think they're trying to put alot of unneeded guilt on women--they're just saying that our "modern" lifestyles and the things our bodies come into contact with do have a negative impact on us. They have another book, I think it's called Healthy Mothers, Better Breastfeeding. I wanted to get it, but it's $50 and 450 pages long! I would love to see what they had to say specifically about breastfeeding.

[cielle]

This thread is so exactly our experience. I couldn't get DS to latch so I pumped for 14 months. It was such a huge and agonizing loss. I still obsess over each thing I did wrong along the way - circing, having family visit before bf was established, letting the nurses convince me he was only sucking his tongue, letting them tell me he needed formula because of jaundice, letting myself get so obsessed with the pumping schedule that I couldn't focus on trying to bf, not getting a REAL LC instead of using the hospital's, on an on.

I guess at some point I'll be able to forgive myself, but after almost 2 years, I still haven't.

We are TTCing now and I worry that half the reason I am doing it is so I can have the BF experience.

Just throwing in my 2 cents...

[Celestial]

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[Abalee]

Thanks for the support about the possibility of having a betters supply next time around...I've heard that before and hold out hope that will happen and maybe I'll be able to do a better job of combining bf and ff.

The environmental possibility is a really interesting one...I know that the doc told me that I just don't have enough milk glands, but certainly their development (or lack thereof) could be linked to environmental causes. Ironically enough, I was a fully bf baby - to 21 months, so that's not the problem for me. I know my mom has wondered if it's something she did that caused this problem, but who knows - a part of me is just underdeveloped and I don't know how to figure out what caused it. And it's not as if millions of dollars in research money will ever go into figuring it out! Sigh. That would be the day!

I would like to ask again - how are those of you who ff approaching introducing solids? Are you doing it differently than if you were exclusively bf? I'm at a loss as to how to do it and when to wean ds off of formula. (he's only 8 mos, but nonetheless).

thanks again.

mom to James 7/14/02

[cielle]

The switch to solids is a big issue for us. DS will be two next month and is still taking several 4 oz. cow milk bottles a day. For me, I was very liberal with the bottles while I was pumping because it was breast milk and I wanted him to have as much as he wanted, just as if he were BFing. We introduced cereal around 6 months but he didn't really take to it. He didn't really get into solids until 1 yr.

Now I wish that I had phased out the bottles and increased the emphasis on solids at an earlier age although given his disinterest in solids, I'm not sure I could have. I would definitely though make the switch from bottle to sippy cup as close to the 1 year mark as possible. At almost 2 he has a very strong will and is very verbal about his desire for a bottle. At the same time I believe bottle fed babies need to have their sucking needs met just as BF babies do. Therefore, I am also now wishing that we had used a paci.

It is a battle because I know that if he were BF the patterns would have been very different. I guess one other thing I would try (that I failed to do) would be to make bottle feeding as boring as BFing in terms of not allowing the child to run around with a bottle. In the high chair or in your arms only. One reason kids wean from bfing is they want to spend more time in the world and less in your lap. If the child is allowed to run with the bottle (as mine has) that motivation is removed.

As you can see there are many things I wish I had done differently. I think this is akin to the parent that buys her kid tons of gifts because the parents work too much or are getting divorced. It is about guilt. I feel guilty about not BFing so I let him have his bottle anyway he wanted.

No doubt it is time to get over this guilt and start doing things right for both me and him. If anybody else has a toddler they need to bottle wean and wants a buddy to talk with about it, PM me!

[PuppyFluffer]

I have read this thread with so much feeling for those who cannot breastfeed. I have a 10 month old dd and we have had success with nursing and all is well....but I have often wondered how it is for women who cannot bf or who have such incredible trouble that they are unable to continue! I can completely understand the feelings of loss and the grieving that happens.

I have made a few lame attempts to pump so I can get a little stash in the freezer should it be needed for anything and I have given up fairly quickly as I have trouble pumping. I just decided that dd needs more milk on Saturdays when I work and she is with DH. He brings her to work so I can nurse her but I don't think it is often enough and she needs more. So...this week, I decided to pump in ernest and wow, is it hard getting much! I have a whole new appreciation for women who pump for their babies and are committed to it. And to women who try to induce lactation! Wow, I am so respectful of you and so in awe of your efforts!!!!!

I wish we had a local milk bank, I would consider donating. I can successfully nurse my baby. I would do the work to help someone who can not! I think I will look into that some more and see if there is anywhere even close that I can contribute to. I am assuming that the more I pump, the more I will get. So far, I only get about an ounce at a time.

I just wanted to offes support and let you women know that breastfeeding does not make a woman or a mother! Loving attentiveness does that! Though you cannot deny the loss of the bfing relationship, you cannot deny the loving relationship you have with your child!! Keep loving those babes!

[The Lucky One]

Thank you, Puppyfluffer. I wish more women here could be so empathetic.

lisa

ps. Hey I live in WV too:) On the opposite end as you though, I'm right on the border with Ohio.

[PuppyFluffer]

I have a question. Will a baby do any comfort nursing at the breast even if they don't get any milk or very little milk? For moms who have supply issues and have to supplement, do you still nurse for fixing booboos and such. I'm just wondering if the baby will even latch if they don't get much?

The Lucky One, nice to know we share the same state. I know so little about the rest of WV. I'm from Va originally, have moved around a lot and just fell in love with Shepherdstown. Do you ever get this way? Look me up if you do!

[Celestial]

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[Laurel]

My ds would almost never consent to comfort-nurse without the lact-aid. I was making only drops or mini-droplets. I can only think of a handful of occasions where he was very sleepy or extremely relaxed when he would nurse with no milk. If I got him started nursing with the lact-aid and he nursed until he was full, he would continue suckling after I removed the tube, but he wouldn't just accept the breast with no milk.

This was one of the main barriers for me in inducing lactation. I couldn't get him to the breast enough because he wouldn't comfort nurse. And trying to hook-up a nursing supplementer every single time he might possibly need comfort soon proved to be so impractical--by the time I'd get things ready to go, either the need for comfort-nursing had passed, or he'd be screaming.

[PuppyFluffer]

Thanks for the answers, I wondered because some babies will take a pacifier and they certainly don't get milk from it! It seems the need to suck gets met with a pacifier, why wouldn't they take a human nipple for pacification? My dd would never take a paci, but the only time I ever tried was in the car seat when I couldn't hold and nurse her.

Again, Yeah to you mommas who try to nurse in the face of problems and tons of support to those who cannot nurse.:love

[Laurel]

A paci has a different association for a baby than a breast does. My ds, too, would always take a binky with no problem, but would not nurse a dry breast. This was very perplexing to me, but I just feel that even when he wasn't really hungry, he'd learned to associate the breast with milk. With no milk, things just weren't "right" as far as he was concerned. A paci is never associated with milk, so a baby would never come to expect the two to go hand in hand.

[Abalee]

Hmm...I guess I'm actually a lucky one here. My ds will still nurse at night, even though I have very little milk (I know I have some, because he dribbles sometimes...). :) He used to nurse 2-3 times during the day as well, but he's pretty unwilling to do that now, unless he's REALLY tired and is ready to nap. I used to nurse him to sleep (for naps) all the time, but now that he's so interested in the world (and can move), he's harder to get to sleep. But we co-sleep, so he often nurses to sleep at night and I nurse him back to sleep multiple times each night, even though I'm basically just acting as a pacifier, since he's not getting much milk. I'm glad we can do this -- it's not the nursing relationship I wanted, but it is something to supplement our bottle-feeding relationship (which I also consider nursing and nurturing). Not sure why it works for us and not for others -- maybe because he's come to associate it with comfort, not food?

[Nemmer]

I'm in the same boat as Lisa (Laurel) who I know from that parenting after infertility mailing list. I adopted my DS, who is 11 months, and tried inducing lactation. I was only able to do it for a couple months (about 8-9 weeks) however. I was producing milk, but only about 1-2 oz per day, and the whole process and I'm sure my stress about it interfered with my relationship with DS. So, he has primarily gotten formula his whole life.
We started solids at about 5 1/2 months, when he seemed interested. I introduced solids very slowly, much to the annoyance of extended family! ;) We started with rice cereal, for a couple of weeks, about once a day... I wasn't very regular, since it was mostly a social/play thing, and a way for him to learn about spoon feeding. I then introduced one fruit or veggie at a time, still on a pretty varied schedule, most of his diet still made up of milk. I guess I figure that even if formula is less perfect, it is still more healthy/complete than any other option I have. It has the variety of nutrients that DS can't get from one veggie per day. At about 8 mos I started giving him mixed varieties, or homemade mixtures. It has really only been the last month or two that I've made an effort to make sure he gets 3 meals per day, and a wider variety of foods. As we approach the year mark, though, I'm facing a couple of questions. First: He does have a problem with constipation, which we've tried to help with in a variety of ways -- herbs, more water, and fruit/veggie only diet (no breads, rice, etc). The fruit/veggie diet seems to help the most, and he'll drink a little water from a sippie cup, but not much. He's still drinking 24 oz or so of formula each day, plus the 3 meals. Any ideas of something else (besides milk of magnesia) that can help his poor little bowels? Question #2: For those of you who do give your children cow's milk as toddlers, do you give both formula and cow's milk at a year? I was thinking slowly introduce it, and increase the cow's milk as I decrease the formula... but I'd like some input on that.
Anyway, I don't know if I really helped with your questions at all Lisa (and others) but I hope this helps. :)

[Nemmer]

Originally posted by Laurel
My ds would almost never consent to comfort-nurse without the lact-aid .... And trying to hook-up a nursing supplementer every single time he might possibly need comfort soon proved to be so impractical--by the time I'd get things ready to go, either the need for comfort-nursing had passed, or he'd be screaming.

This was exactly my experience too. DS would never comfort nurse, but had a big need to suck and would take the binky quite well. He eventually got so frustrated with my attempts to help induction by offering the breast without the LA at first, that he essentially boycotted nursing at all! I came to the conclusion that both my main objectives of nursing were not being met. I wasn't really providing enough bm to be of much nutritive value, which was objective #1. Number 2 was the attachment and bonding experience, which seemed better with the bottle too, due to the stress. DS was so much more relaxed, and he would play with my fingers and look into my eyes while I held the bottle, whereas he mostly just fought and protested while nursing. Not every time, but enough. I know God gave me an incredible sense of peace about stopping, because I would not have stopped otherwise. I wanted to be sure I gave it my full effort, and didn't "wimp out." (not saying that any of you did, I just knew that *I* might be likely to) But, I do feel that we've been able to create a bond with bottle-feeding, even though I do long for the convenience of nursing. He still prefers me to feed him, even though daddy sometimes does. And he looks at me while he eats, playing with my face sometimes, and smiling milk-drenched smiles and laughs as I play with him. It is still a cherished time for us.

[Nemmer]

Originally posted by cielle
I guess one other thing I would try (that I failed to do) would be to make bottle feeding as boring as BFing in terms of not allowing the child to run around with a bottle. In the high chair or in your arms only. One reason kids wean from bfing is they want to spend more time in the world and less in your lap. If the child is allowed to run with the bottle (as mine has) that motivation is removed.


Although DS is only 11 months, this is something I've kept in mind and tried to do, as well. I hold the bottle close to my chest, and even discourage turning and looking around. I figure, if he were bf'ing and turned his head, he'd lose the latch, so he can lose the bottle too. I try to treat bottle feeding as much like bf as I can. I let him snack just as I would with a breast. It's a little harder with formula, since I have to make sure it is somewhat fresh, but I don't freak out anymore if the bottle was made 2 hours ago and he wants to snack. When it gets 3 hours, I make a new one. I think I got that basic guideline from Dr. Sears' Baby Book.

[cielle]

Nemmer-

F&V diet is probably good. Make sure he isn't overdoing it on bananas since they can cause constipation.

Regarding milk. People do it both ways. You can either slowly introduce with say 2 oz. prepared formula plus 2 oz. milk in the same bottle or you can do what we did. Basically, DS refused the milk at first so we just stopped trying. When he began eating cheerios with milk later on he was willing to accept milk in the bottle so we made the change over then. But we used formula far longer than other people usually do. The nice thing about the milk switch over is you can get affordable organic milk but not formula.

Your DS is still young so don't over do it with this, but you can adjust the water in the formula. Ie. use two scoops of formula but 5 oz. of water. He likely won't notice the difference but will get some extra water. Obviously don't get in the habit of watering down formula to where nutrition is comprised.

If it's get bad there's always the glycerin suppositories which are no darn fun :(

HTH.

[annakiss]

It looks like I'm joining this thread awful late, but I have been mourning my loss of the breastfeeding experience ever since DS was 2 days old.

DS was born 15 days late at home with a cleft lip & palate that was not diagnosed prior to birth. I tried to nurse right away, but he just screamed. He seemed to get a little bit of milk, but was pretty upset. He didn't really seem like he wanted to nurse either. There was no rooting that I noticed.

When he was a day old, the pediatrician came to the house to check out the cleft. My mom (midwife) didn't really know anything about clefts, as most people who haven't dealt directly with them don't, so the ped came to take a look. She said that from the looks of it, she didn't see how DS could adequately breastfeed. I was having tremendous trouble with it as it was.

I got a pump to get him some food using special cleft nursers, and continued to try nursing every now and then. Every time I tried to nurse, DS screamed his head off. After that 2nd day, I pretty much gave up. My mom kept trying to encourage me to try. She thought that I could be successful, but I felt that she was adding more pressure than I needed. We moved across country when DS was ten days old, and between the move, dealing with just having a baby, and the cleft, I don't know if I really had it in me to continue trying. Every time I attempted to put DS to the breast, he screamed. He screamed when he was 3 months old, he screamed when he was 3 days old, and he's still screaming at 8 months. I still sometimes wonder though if I didn't try hard enough.

I've been pumping for the last 8 months with no problem. DS is a little baby just because of our genes, not to mention the surgeries, so his growth spurts had been relatively easy to deal with. Especially since initially I had so much milk. I decreased my supply when he was 4 months old b/c I ran out of space in my freezer, but I'm paying for it now that he's older. He's not on solids hardly at all & his growth spurts have depleated my freezer supply completely. Four times recently I've given him formula at night to go to sleep. In his first 3 months, I added formula to the breast milk to increase the calories so he could gain adequate weight for his first surgery (which we accomplished, but barely), so I knew that he didn't have a problem with it, but I've been feeling guilty about giving him the formula anyway. I've increased my supply again, but it's not enough to get much ahead of him, and when I do he just goes through another growth spurt and eats up everything I'd saved anyway.

At any rate, I'm grateful to see this thread because I really really really mourn that I couldn't nurse. Being able to pump is good because I can feed him my breastmilk, but it's not the same. I see women in my playgroup breastfeed under blankets and wonder what the hell they're hiding. If I'd been able to nurse, I'd have been brazen about it. As it is, I too feel as Abalee said:

It was so hard for me to accept that I'd be a bottle-wielding mama - and I am still sensitive to it when we are out and I have to pull out a bottle. I'd give a lot to be able to pull out my breast instead,

I almost feel like I'd like to have another child in order to be able to nurse, but I wonder what sort of feelings another pregnancy would bring up (not that I'm anywhere ready for another). I feel like my body failed me because of the cleft and though I know my chances of having another cleft-affected child are slim, I think that I would feel pressure to do it "right" the second time around.

So that's my story. Sorry for babbling on & on.

[Laurel]

Anna, glad to have you here! Thanks for sharing your story. I can relate alot to your quandary over a second child. My ds is adopted, and now is the time that we're trying to figure out whether to adopt again or go back to ttc. A huge part of me leans toward ttc for many reasons, but one of the biggest is so I can (hopefully) nurse! Even if we adopt again, I'll try adoptive nursing again, but the thought of it really fills me with dread--after seeing my body's poor response this time around, I'm not as hopeful about inducing lactation once again. I have mostly moved on and accepted that we are a bottlefeeding family at this time, but I still have many moments of wishing I could nurse him--especially when he's sick, or hurt, or during the night. And I HATE the inconvenience of bottles! I hate washing them, lugging them around, having to mix up formula, etc. It's hard for me to understand why anyone would CHOOSE bottles.

My question for everyone is how have you introduced other liquids and particularly cups or sippy cups? I have wanted to keep bottles only for formula and have other liquids in other cups. We have bottles only while being held, and I've wanted to protect that. Ds refuses to drink from a sippy cup. Actually, he refuses to drink anything except formula. No water, no juice. I'm not sorry about juice, because I haven't been big on it anyway. But I'm concerned that he's not getting enough fluid, especially now that he eats about 2-3 solid food meals a day. I even gave up and tried to give him water in a bottle, but he wouldn't have anything to do with that either. A friend suggested having him drink from a regular cup, and he took a sip or two, but that was it. Now, no matter what the liquid is or what container I present it in, he pushes it away forcefully.

Any ideas? He's 9 1/2 months old. Am I worried about nothing? If he were bf'ing, I don't think it would be a problem at all.

[onediaperinmama]

I'm just tiptoeing in to thank ya'll for this thread.

I'm shocked to find myself looking down my nose at the ladies in my church who produce bottles from their diaper bags. I don't know where this self righteous mama stuff is coming from.

My husband's sister died shortly after an emergency cesearean birth at 7 months gestation. They delivered our niece so that my sister in law could begin chemotherapy on a brain tumor. She had a stroke after an unsuccessful operation to relieve pressure & died two months later. Samantha, a two month premature baby thrived and of course was fed formula by her grandma. What would I have thought or said if I had passed my MIL & her motherless granddaughter in the mall not knowing who they were or what their situation was?

It makes me cry, I don't understand where this judgement comes from. It's something I dislike greatly about myself. After an extremely difficult start & extruciating first three months, I'm proud of breastfeeding & I'm pleased to encourage it by breastfeeding in public & showing those convinced by formula companies or culture that breast feeding is a natural, beautiful option. But I'm ashamed that my self righteous feelings cross over to everyone who brings out a bottle at the bus stop.

Anyway, so try to refrain from hurling tomatoes at me. I just wanted to thank you for your perspectives. It's a good reminder for me to work harder to keep that nasty little judgemental feeling from creeping up my back.

Jess

P.S. A friend of mine runs this: http://www.milkconnection.com/ - it's not a milk bank, it's a private forum where breastmilk is donated to mama's in need. I'm not sure if any of your wee ones are wee enough to check it out, but thought I'd pass the link along as an fyi.

[The Lucky One]

Lisa, about your ds refusing the sippy cup...

What we did with our ds, is give him a sippy cup with H20 (spill-proof, of course) and let him keep it with him all day. At first, he would just play with it, shake it, etc, but eventually he got the hang of it and enjoyed giving himself drinks from it. If I remember correctly, he was almost 12 months before he really got the hang of it. At your son's age, he wasn't able to do it alone.

What kind of water are you giving him? My ds only will drink H20 if it's ice cold:confused:

I'd just keep cheerfully offering it to him. We all know you can't force a baby to do anything they don't want, but I'd say that in time he will come around. Maybe as we get into summer and it gets hotter as he's moving around, he'll want something to quench his thirst.

Good luck.

lisa

[LaffNowCryLater]

I formula feed, my story is toooo long to type, but yes, I cosleep, no cio, feed on demand (no set feeding schedule),cloth diaper, select vax, gentle discipline, etc, etc., I really go with the whole AP parenting ways, but feel like I don't belong b/c I dont BF.
I wil say that any children I may have I will still try to BF the best I can and I pray things will work better this time.

[Nemmer]

I have a question for you bottle feeding mamas. (I posted a new thread about this, but meant to post it here. For some reason I couldn't find this thread! So, I apologize in advance for anyone who finds this redundant. :) ) I had always planned on treating bottle feeding as much like breastfeeding as I possibly can. Today my ped mentioned that I should try to wean ds from the bottle by 15 months! I found that odd since she is rather pro-breastfeeding, anti-circ, and generally at least a little receptive to non-mainstream parenting practices. I asked if that was due to the teeth problem. She stated yes, the tooth decay, but also the risk of ear infections, and "they just don't need it any more, developmentally."

So I'm just wondering about your thoughts on this. What age did/will you wean your babies from the bottle? Is it really that horrible to let ds self-wean from the bottle like I would from the breast?

[Lucysmama]

Hi, mamas.
My name is Katie and I am *gulp* a bottlefeeder. There are reasons why - difficult c-section, poor support, nipple confusion... but mostly: I gave up. I was drugged with Percoset, in gobs of pain from c-section, and I couldn't handle it. They gave me lots of formula to take home with me and....I used it. I think I just figured, "well, this is really hard recovering from major surgery...I'll just use formula until I feel a little less hazy and dopey. Then we'll get it down." But, it never happened. Dd wouldn't latch. I was distressed. We tried for weeks. I pumped for two months for her, and then we switched to formula.
I don't think I have ever felt guiltier about anything. Ever. I regret this every day. :( My best mama friend has a babe the same age as my dd - 15 months. They are still happily BFing. It's so hard. I love them both, but I am so envious of their nursing relationship. They seem so in synch and peaceful when they nurse. When I think about trying to nurse Lucy, I can only remember both of us in tears 10 times a day. The pressure. The frustration.
We are currently ttc #2. We are planning a home VBAC, and I really hope to BF and I will enlist every damn LC in Ohio if we have to!
Thank you for starting this thread. I was beginning to feel a tad out-of-place on MDC, despite my other AP choices. Hugs to all you ladies who are mourning BFing losses. It's tough. :grouphug

[girlzmommy00]

Thank you for this thread. I'm currently formula feeding Lily, my 8 month old. My 2 younger dd's were born with severe/extreme food allergies and were not able to tolerate breastmilk. They were/are allergic to so many things that the only way I might have been able to breastfeed was if I stopped eating. But I kind of like to eat ; and who knows even if I stopped eating, they very well may have still reacted to my breastmilk.
Unfortunately, their allergies are way beyond just milk and soy and they both needed an elemental, amino acid based formula called Neocate. They were even allergic to hypoallergenic formulas. With Lily, we've been lucky, she can tolerate a few solids now (not much but a few things) but Lauren was not able to start solid food until she was 2 1/2. She was just on a liquid diet of her formula before then. Thankfully our ins and WIC pay for Lily's formula since it's $30 a can and she goes through about $500 worth a month.
And we did get comments. Lauren is very tall for her age, she is 46 in at 3 yrs and was 36 in at 12 months. So people would see her with her bottle and would openly comment that she was too old for a bottle. I'd explain that she was younger than they realized and we were thankful she was so tall for her age since she had a medical condition and could not tolerate eating any solid foods, ie why she had a bottle. That would shut them up real fast.
With my oldest I had to stop BF due to my PPD (needed meds that weren't compatable with BF), she also had bad food allergies but could tolerate soy and was on a soy formula until she was 2. Unfortunately, we are currently in the process of trying solids with Lily and adding to her list of foods she can't tolerate.

But to answer the question, Lily drinks her formula in a bottle and we give her water in a sippy cup. I'm hoping to start offering a serving of formula in the sippy and see how she reacts.

I wish you all well. It's difficult when things don't go as planned. I would have loved to BF the girls but wasn't willing to risk life threatening allergic reactions to do so. Take care!

[sweetfeet]

I almost feel like I'd like to have another child in order to be able to nurse
I feel the same way. I feel like it would be a chance to redeem myself and to heal the hurting in my heart over my lost nursing relationship with Sophie. I cried for so many nights after we stopped nursing. I still yearn to hold her to me and comfort her when she cries or nurse her to sleep.
Lucysmama-Your story sounds so much like my own! I had a csection, Sophie was breech. She was born at 35 weeks. We had just moved a week before(I thought I had a month to unpack.) I had the most horrible nurse, ped and LC's in all of Ohio. I was so drugged up from the Csection that I went shopping when I was released from the hospital. Sophie was so little I had no preemie clothes and she needed some. She remained at the hospital in an incubator under bili lights for extreme jaundice. I told them I'd be back every 3 hours to nurse(I said I wanted to come back every 2 and they said no that it had to be 3 because she wouldn't be under the lights very long if she were feeding for 30 mins out of every 2 hours) I came back at 2 and a half hours because I missed her. I had at that point been in the hospital 5 days before being released. I came back and they were feeding her FORMULA! It was botched from the very beginning when I was in recovery and no one brought her to me for 3+ hours. I asked and asked. Her apgars were both 9. She was fine. I hate that place. I hate hospitals and doctors. I have a year of nursing school done and I will never go back for nursing. I cant be there. Anyhow sorry I rambled
Lucysmama where in Ohio are you? I am in Dayton/Kettering but visit Columbus/Hilliard often as my parents live there. PM me if you ever wanna chat.

[luvmygirls]

Great thread Lisa!

I'm Elaine, adoptive mama to two girls. I haven't been here for quite a while, but have decided to give cloth diapering a try and have been researching a bit. I saw this thread, by Laurel (my friend-Hi Lisa!! Long time, no talk!) and was interested.

I've been feeling the old pangs of "breastfeeding loss" lately too. I did adoptive nursing with my youngest, Heidi, for a little over 4 months. It was stressful for me, but worth it. Just the other day I was bottle feeding Heidi and could tell she wasn't interested in the milk anymore but was ready to drift off to sleep. She refused the bottle but wanted more than just to cuddle. I wanted to rip off my shirt to see if she'd nurse a dry breast but since we were in a room full of 12 and 13 year old girls I didn't do it. I have tried several times since we stopped breastfeeding to see if she would latch and comfort suck but without success. :( I agree that I miss the convenience of breastfeeding, and the closeness it provides.

Oh, I think I hear my baby crying.

Elaine
Colorado
Mommy to Nicole (2) and Heidi (8 mos)

[bananasmom]

Wow, I'm so glad that I found out about this thread.

I didn't bf anywhere near as long as many of you, and didn't know about mothering.com, or I would have (not that much more than drops were coming out anyhow). I didn't know about milk banks, fenugreek or domperidone. My LC and doctors seemed confused by my failure to produce milk, and my dd's startling weight loss. It took me 6 months to get them to do some hormone tests. We discovered that I have Hashimoto's Thyroiditis (which is now being treated), and my endocrinologist thinks this explains my experience. She wasn't at all surprised by what I described, and told me that she had seen it many times before, with her thyroid patients.

I'm happy to say that I am finally to the point that I could care less what anyone else says about my wimpy little decision to formula feed (particularly anonymous people on a message board). I know that breastmilk is best, but I feel that it was out of my hands. I did the best that I could have, with the knowledge that I had at the time. No one is a perfect parent, and I think we all do the best with what we have. Except for that bottle of formula several times a day, I think that I am a hell of a momma!

I do my best to dispell misinformation, and make my suggestions (about helping women with low supply) to authors and lactation resource sites. Oh, and I'm pregnant again, and making preparations to be more successful this time. Again, this is the best that I can do.

Thanks for starting this thread. It's nice to have a place.

[Lucysmama]

Hugs to all of you who had difficulty breastfeeding. It's wonderful that so many moms have easy BFing experiences and are wellsupported, but I know firsthand how hard it is when things are stacked against you.
Sophiesmom, I live in NE Ohio, in the CVNP. Sorry we aren't closer!

[mountain]

Does anyone know of a milk bank that needs milk? I feel for anyone who has trouble bfing, and I have an excess. I tried to call my local hospital, but they said they have never had it there.
Is there a freezer service or something where you could donate it? It just seems like, we milk & transport cow products, when human milk is so much better for babies.

I would be so in favor of giving any baby a better chance...especially think about babies born addicted to crack or heroine--some IGaS would do them a world of good!

Would appreciate any info

[bananasmom]

:thumb mountain !

http://www.dietitian.com/milkbank.html

Has a link for finding a bank near you.

[EFmom]

I'm another formula feeder also joining this thread a bit late.

Our two girls were adopted, one 11 months old and one at 14 months. I did not try to induce lactation as to me it seemed like the wrong thing to do for my girls. They were born in China, and with our adoptions, their whole worlds turned upside down. We looked funny, smelled funny, sounded funny, and of course, were taking them away from everything they were familiar with. It seemed to me that it would be just stressing them more to try to make them learn to bf, when obviously their bottles were just about the one constant they had in their lives for comfort.

I have to admit, I honestly don't feel any great loss not to have bf, but I'm not trying to minimize anyone else's sense of loss. I guess it's just that I feel so incredibly blessed to have these two magnificent children in our lives, that I end up just basking in the joy of all the positives and letting any negatives slide right off my back. If I'd had bio kids, I would have bf, but that just wasn't in the cards for us, and I wouldn't trade my experiences or my kids for all the bf in the universe.

I do agree that there's a lot of fairly nasty, mean-spirited bashing of formula feeding moms here. So true about the chimpanzee thing--what is up with that? But I try not to take that stuff seriously. I know what my relationship with my girls is like, and I'm not going to let anybody's smug self-righteousness rain on our parade. I also get a hair tired of the endless bashing of formula. I don't have any illusions about formula companies or their rotten business practices, but if it weren't for formula my kids and a lot of other adopted kids that I know would be dead, period.

[Laurel]

EFmom, I totally agree with your last paragraph. It's taken me awhile to not get emotionally involved in all the "formula is evil" threads, and I still get frustrated sometimes with the lack of compassion and understanding. But I finally realized that it really doesn't matter what these people think! They are entitled to their opinions, but they are only opinions. Why was I letting myself get into a frenzy over the opinions of people that I would never meet in real life? I realized that my decisions and choices were between me, my dh, and our consciences. No one else.

[PatchyMama]

heh.. can i revive this? I found it searching for something else....

I think there is almost nothing lonelier than being a formula/bottle-feeding mom in a culture of passionate breastfeeders. We often feel that we do not fit anywhere. We certainly don't fit on a "mainstream" parenting board, because our hearts are "AP". (I use those terms only for lack of a more concise way to say what I mean.) We live under constant judgment and stereotype. When we go to the grocery store, we worry about who will be making assumptions about us based on what's in our cart. We worry that they will never want to get past first impressions and give us the benefit of the doubt.

We often don't know where to turn when we need answers to questions about our child's health or to other issues, like feeding solid foods. We can't go to a regular parenting board and expect to get answers that reflect our parenting style and values. We can't ask questions here without risking misunderstanding, or simply that most people don't have experience with what we need.

All this is on top of the grief and disappointment of missing out on the experience of nursing, of having our bodies fail us, and on top of the concern for our children's well-being and how we'll meet their needs in spite of our limitations. (I'm actually not "grieving" at the moment, but I have in the past, and know many moms still are.

I feel I have to explain and tell my story so often--it gets cumbersome. But if I don't explain, I can just see the wheels turning in people's heads. I try to stay away from the "formula is evil" threads, but I can't--I just have to go see what's being assumed about me. I can't resist posting on them either.

Anyway, I'd love to hear your story, your issues, your worries, your frustrations--whatever you'd like to share about your breastfeeding and bottlefeeding experiences!

Thank you for saying that.... i think it made me cry! LOL... I can relate to sew many on this thread ... I wont go into my story cause franky im tired of feeling like I need an excuse and every time I give it feel the guilt and pain from not having that nursing relationship. However I think its important to remember that just because its a bottle.. doesnt mean its any less special... I went out of my way to make every feeding special... lots of cuddling and attachment... But I still hurt about it to this day :( and have thought many times if i would just have another I can try to get it right this time... i have the support i didnt know about now! But I also know thats a bad reason to have a child and im not ready for more....

anyway, just wanted to say my VERY LATE thanks for this thread..... :)

[julie128]

Just read in American Baby that Horizon is now making an organic cow milk formula that is FDA approved.

[PurplePixiePooh]

Finally I don't feel so alone! My ds is 6 weeks old and bottle fed. I have a long story about my bf'ing, but in a nut shell, poor latch NO support, LLL was not helpful, couldn't afford a LC, hosiptal LC got frustrated during my visit and gave me a bottle to feed the baby, nipple confusion, flat nipples, overactive letdown and very poor supply compunded with ppd.

I too know the feeling of being almost embarrased when having to pull out the bottle in public, I still occasionally offer him my breast as if he one day decide he wants to nurse. I tried an SNS too, but he will not latch on nad if he does hold my breast in his mouth he will not suckle, just cry a muffled cry or pull off.

I have felt judged, persecuted and looked down upon. I have seen snide glances and been snubbed by LLL after one visit and seriously seeking their help.

I am gald that this is here, I am all AP, but just because this one area is lacking some consider me a poor example at best. I grieve the loss of the b'ing every day and till wonder if I was responsible for the problems or if it ws just a bad cousre of events.

[LoveBeads]

Thanks for this thread, sorry I'm so late in replying.

My DD is now 3 1/2 but I still have the excruciating pain of not being able to breastfeed every single day. I didn't even join these discussion boards for years, fearful that I would never be accepted in an AP environment when I couldn't do the most basic task of all!

My milk supply was very low. I had lc's, herbalists, a hospital grade pump, supplemental feeding systems, the works. My DD jaundiced and began to pass crystals in her diaper (sign of dehydration) so I began to formula feed without hesitation. Seeing those crystals scared the sh*t out of me and I didn't hesitate to get her food. I continued on a path of breastfeeding, giving a bottle, then pumping for every single feeding for six weeks (it was completely exhausting) and then I just had to give up. I never got more than 1/4 oz. during any pumping session despite pumping for 1/2 hour on each side. It was so heartbreaking for me as I myself was breastfed and grew up listening to my mother talk about how wonderful it was.

My DH never did understand why this was so hard for me and why I cared so much. It's not so much that I feel I didn't do the best for my baby, that's part of it. But I really wanted to have the experience of giving her nutrition from my body.

I hope I'm able to have another baby and I will try again. Thanks so much for starting this thread and good luck to all of you!

[Eggie]

Laurel,
I didn't know about this thread and also wanted so much to share with other ff mothers. I was able to bf my daughter for only 1.5 months due to medical reasons and well, it's difficult to avoid sad feelings after all the benefits that we know bf gives to babies but we have to move on. About prejudices and else, I think the world would be much better if we turn our heads to our own family instead of doing it to other's.
I just know that my beloved dd is such a happy and adored baby:love

Have few questions for all the ff mommas:
1. Have you noticed that your baby is less "chubby" that bf ones or is that just my experience? My dd is growing very good but always seems lighter. She was born 7.1 lbs and 19" and now(5 months old) she's 14 lbs 26".
2. When did you started solids?
3. Any problems with formula brands? I had to change it to Carna**n Good Start because the other ones were so heavy for her stomach. Had bad constipation problems at 2 months old.
4. Have you tried the Dr Brown's bottles? seems to work very good against gas. Any other ones?
Well, hope to hear from all of you soon :D

[bananasmom]

1. Have you noticed that your baby is less "chubby" that bf ones or is that just my experience? My dd is growing very good but always seems lighter. She was born 7.1 lbs and 19" and now(5 months old) she's 14 lbs 26".

Mine is less chubby as well (usually 25th - 50th %ile). It's probably just a body-type thing, but I often wonder if it's that I truly tried to read her cues, rather than just keep shoving a bottle in her mouth (I see that frequently, from my chose-to-ff friends... they seem to want them to sleep longer, and when the baby cries, they just feed feed feed)

2. When did you started solids?

About 5 or 5 1/2 months, although I though of waiting longer. To be honest, I sort of weighed the option of giving her more formula (she was still hungry) or giving her foods that I prepared myself. That is mostly why I started then, not later.

3. Any problems with formula brands? I had to change it to Carna**n Good Start because the other ones were so heavy for her stomach. Had bad constipation problems at 2 months old.

Not with brands, but we spent the better part of 15 months trying to figure out what made my dd so gassy and in so much pain most of the time. FINALLY, they did an allergy test, and she has a milk allergy. Wish I'd known that earlier! Now, it's soy-soy-soy in our house.

4. Have you tried the Dr Brown's bottles? seems to work very good against gas. Any other ones?
Well, hope to hear from all of you soon

We used them, yes. They did seem to help with gas, but we found a problem around 4 or 5 months, because we couldn't find a Dr. B nipple that moved fast enough for her. Unless, they've added nips to their line (which I don't think they have) I *think* they market more toward the newborn. After the Dr B's, we tried a bunch and settled on Gerber's with ortho nipple, like her paci. They seemed to make her the happiest.

HTH!

[stafl]

I haven't read all the posts in this thread, but I wanted to let you all know there is a great support list at Yahoo Groups called MOBI - Mothers Overcoming Breastfeeding Issues.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/mobi/
http://www.internetbabies.com/
Everyone is welcome, regardless of whether you are still trying to make breastfeeding work or not, regardless of what your problems were. It is a very wonderful, supportive group of women without whom I never would have managed to deal with the serious difficulties I faced with breastfeeding (my DD was tongue-tied and physically unable to nurse...long story, it's on my website if anyone is interested, just click on my name in my siggie).


MOBI is for women who are/were unable to breastfeed, feel unsuccessful in breastfeeding, are/were experiencing severe breastfeeding problems, or experienced untimely weaning.

Purpose

The purpose of MOBI (Mothers Overcoming Breastfeeding Issues) is to give women a place to discuss their emotions over not being able to breastfeed successfully. Many women are unable to breastfeed because of milk supply problems, long or short term separation after the birth of their child, previous breast surgery or lack of support and are overwhelmed with feelings of disappointment, anger, sadness, inadequacy and many others. Some women suffer depression because of these issues. This list is not to discuss the pros and cons of breast over bottle. There are many other resources for that information. We are here to provide a safe atmosphere to share feelings and to connect with other women going through the same process.

[Eggie]

Thanks stafl, sounds very interesting, I will give it a try.

[Laurel]

I am really needing some perspective and help from an AP point of view.

We have allowed ds (now 17 months) to use a binky since I wanted to make sure all his sucking needs were met while bottlefeeding. Now I have a child who is hopelessly addicted to his binky! He would have it in his mouth literally all day long if I let him. I am trying to figure out if I should just let it go and trust that he will leave it behind on his own accord when he's ready, or if I need to do some intervention. And if I do decide to gradually get rid of it, how would I do that in a gentle and appropriate way?

There are times when it's obvious to me that for whatever reason, he really does need his pacifier. He has been consistently having a cuddle time with me everymorning where he goes and asks for his bottle and binky and comes and sits on my lap for 15-20 minutes. I also still want to use it at nap and bed times. I want to be able to use it as a comfort object (in my arms). But there are other times when I feel it's simply a habit. He will be going along playing just fine and will happen to notice it in one of my several hiding places and if he sees it, that's it, he's got to have it. If I try to remove it (even at mealtimes sometimes) he protests loudly. I have had some success with having him say "bye-bye" to it and leave it under his pillow after naps, but even that has been limited. He will turn around later and go whine for it. Distraction has not been very effective--when he wants a binky, he wants a binky!

I was talking to my sil yesterday and she suggested that it's a control issue--she felt that if I just backed off and let him have it as much as he wants, he would use it less and less because he would feel more secure that it would be there when he needed it. That idea makes a lot of sense to me, and I am going to try that for a few weeks. But I would love to have other ideas too. I am also going to try holding him more often and making sure that he's getting enough comfort in other ways.

I really hate being the binky police, and it has become a source of frustration between ds and me. I really want to just do like I would if he were nursing and trust that he will give it up when ready. But I am having a hard time trusting whether or not that will really work. I think in a way this dilemma represents my learning to trust in attachment parenting--I love AP and believe it but still have inner "fights" sometimes where it's hard to leave behind all the prior teaching and assumptions about children, KWIM? Also, I know the binky is an emotional issue for me because every time I see it it reminds me that he isn't nursing and I wish he was. So I think I am maybe unfairly biased against the binky because of that--I really hate it and always have.

Anyway, I gotta go because my little boy needs some mama time, but I hope I covered everything that was on my mind!

[Nemmer]

Our DS loves his binky too, Laurel. Ever since he was about 9-10 months, I've put the limit that it is only for "cuddling." I just noticed that we were giving it to him ALL the time, and knew that was not what I wanted for him. Like you, I wanted to make sure his sucking needs were met, so we allowed him to have it from the time he was very little. But when he was just holding it in his mouth while playing, I knew it was time to start setting limits.

Anyway, the first word he showed signs of comprehending was "binky" and the first word he tried to say was "binky." He really loves his binky! :LOL But he also knows that it is just for cuddling. He doesn't always like it, but it is a rule he understands very well. When he asks for it, which is usually by pointing to my pocket where I keep it (trying to keep it out of sight), I'll let him know that he can have it if he is ready to cuddle. Sometimes all he needs is a 2 minute snuggle, and then he decides he is bored, and he'll spit it out as he climbs off my lap. He does try to get away with climbing off my lap and keeping it now and then, but as long as I remind him it is just for cuddling, he is usually pretty good about spitting it out for me. If he doesn't want to, I remind him that he has the choice to cuddle with it. I usually just say "The binky is for cuddling. Do you want to cuddle mommy, or get down and play?"

Lately, I've started limiting it more to "sleepy times" and just trying to remind myself not to be so quick to offer it, even with cuddles. He has a hard time sometimes with that, but for the most part he seems to be doing really well with the very slight adjustment. I want to take things really slow with it, so he isn't traumatized. But (and maybe this isn't very AP) I really don't want him still using it when he's four. I know I've heard stories of kids that get to be about 3 or 4 and decide it is icky and throw it away. So, if you're comfortable with letting him wean himself, I'm sure it will happen, Laurel. But, if you want to gradually wean him from it, I'm sure you can do that in a very gentle way too. :)

Anyway, hope my little rambling offered something helpful. :D

[Fleurette]

Thanks for starting this thread! I, too had difficulties with bf my dd. She was in the NICU for about 4 days when she was born and was given a bottle and I wasn't allowed to hold her for about 3 days. When we did try nursing, she just flat out refused to do it. It wasn't coming as quickly as she wanted it. Unfortunately, she wasn't a baby to show signs of hunger; she would just wake up and be hungry and want to eat NOW! She had little patience to figure out how to suckle and get the milk from mommy. I pumped exclusively for her until I went back to work and I have finally found peace with my decision to switch her to formula. It breaks my heart that we never had a nursing relationship, but it royally ticks me off when bf moms assume I don't care about my baby. The assumptions and the looks you get are horrible.

I'm desperately hoping that the nursing relationship I have with our twins (due in 8 days!!!) will be much better.

[Laurel]

Nemmer, thanks. The scenario you described is exactly what I envision: binky used at sleep times and when comfort is needed in mama's arms. At this point, I know that enforcing a cuddle-only rule would involve a lot of angst. He has a total meltdown--either tantrum or sobbing--if I don't give it to him when he wants it.

One challenge to all this is that my dh doesn't care if ds uses a pacifier. This is one of a very few parenting things we've disagreed on. As far as dh is concerned, it's perfectly fine if he sucks on it all day long until he's 3 or 4. So I find it very hard to be consistent in my handling of it when dh won't do the same.

[Nemmer]

Laurel, does he primarily want it when he sees it? Or is it something he'll ask for even without the visual reminder? If he only asks when he sees it, maybe you could start by making sure it is out of sight most of the time? I use my pocket as an out-of-sight hiding place. Although, by now, DS knows to ask for it by reaching for my pocket. For awhile, he was even taking my hand and guiding it to my pocket! :LOL :rolleyes: Anyway, good luck! I do feel your frustration, truly!

[Nemmer]

Fleurette, welcome! We do know all about your frustrations, and hope you find some comfort knowing you aren't alone. I really hope you do have much better success with your twins! Congrats on their upcoming arrival! :D I too have hopes that next time around I'll have a longer breastfeeding relationship with my child. I think we all do. :hug Nice to meet you!

[Laurel]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Nemmer
[B]Laurel, does he primarily want it when he sees it? Or is it something he'll ask for even without the visual reminder? /QUOTE]

Both! If he sees it, he's guaranteed to want it. I do have several places I've tried to hide it, but he knows where all of those are and will go to that place and whine and point until I get it out. I like your idea of using your pocket--I may try that. I suspect he will still ask for it but at least he won't be able to see it in my pocket so maybe it will be more out of sight, out of mind.

[Larklinnet]

Hi Lisa, it might help you to try to sort out exactly why you are so troubled with your ds still using a binky. You mention that it reminds you that you can't breastfeed him, but it sounds as if there might be other factors involved too. Do you have health or dental concerns? Without knowing more about your reasoning behind the timing needs, it's hard to figure out what might be helpful suggestions for you. If there is a health or developmental reason behind your attempting to get him to give up the binky, then taking gradual steps in this direction now seems wise. But I am not sure why it sometimes seeming to be more of a habit rather than a comfort object is worrying you - is it because you are afraid he won't want to give up the habit if it isn't challenged? I'm not saying "oh don't worry about it" but from my advanced perspective of having a 4 year old :D I've seen that time does bring an end to many things I thought would never change. Your s-i-l's advice seems valid and I'm glad you are going to try to see what happens for awhile.

My ds didn't much use a binky except for his early months (he wasn't that interested so we just stopped using it and he didn't seem to miss it) we had a terrible time getting him to give up his bottle. Though we ignored his ped's advice to wean him off of it at a year old since he just wasn't ready, the longer it went the more concerned we got about damage to his teeth. At around 21 months we finally gave him a choice of a sippy cup or using one of Avent's transitional nipples (he did get some transition time, we didn't cut out the bottle nipple completely at once). He hated the "green nipple" and after two days of protesting both choices, he accepted the sippy cup and never looked back. But I think if he had seemed extremely distraught about the change we would have stopped the process and tried again in a week or so.

Perhaps, like I find myself doing at times, you feel that because you adopted your son, it's of crucial importance that you not do anything that might disrupt his sense of security at all, for fear that this will cause him problems as he grows up. Even though I think we adoptive moms know in our bones that giving birth is not the only factor in having a securely attached child, it's sometimes hard to hold fast to that knowledge when issues like this one come up. I know I worry about inadvertently challenging my son's sense of comfort and attachment; usually when I find myself fretting about this I realize it's one of those "adoption issues" rearing its head, and have to reassure myself so I don't allow him to, say, have 10 candy bars before dinner just so I don't damage his psyche forever (just kidding, but you know what I mean!)

[pilesoflaundry]

Thank you for starting this thread!! I hate even mentioning my kids were/are bottle fed because I don't feel like explainming why in every post but hate how some people react if you don't explain.Ugh, I don't get on someone's case for doing something differently from me, so why do they feel they can do it?

Long story short I had a very slow to come in and very small supply, didn't know about herbal remedies to help with that. Tried a few different pumps still got absolutly nothing. Ds wouldn't latch on,lc and a nurse told me my nipples might be too small for him to latch on to. He would scream his head off and arch away, he was starving and he just couldn't get it. Hospital said he had to have a bottle before being discharged since he had lost weight and didn't really feed from the breast. I kept trying after we got home but that bottle did us in I think. Not to mention I wouldn't have had enought for him anyway so I gave up. With the girls I again had little to nothing for supply, my nipples hadn't changed any so the latch issue was still there and I had zero support this time around, dh knew the hell I went through emotionally after not being able to nurse Alex and he said he didn't want to see me go through that again so he just didn't want to know about it, none of his family were breastfeeders so he doesn't understand. :( I basically was alone in this and my kids ended up bottle fed. I am okay with that decision, I tried my best, the important thing is that they eat kwim? My kids are healthy, happy and loved and that is all that matters to me. I always held them for bottle feedings , never propped their bottles or left them alone with one in bed or anything. I hold and cuddle them for their feedings.

[Laurel]

Welcome, Jackie!

Originally posted by Larklinnet Do you have health or dental concerns?

Yes. I"m worried mostly about speech development, as I have a friend whose dd had a pacifier until age 3 or 4 and has speech problems that my friends feels are related to the binky. That's why I think that having it his mouth all day long would be a problem vs. only having it at certain times. The same goes for potential dental problems. It seems to me that it would be the amount of time it was in the mouth that would be the determining factor in speech/orthodontic problems.

It's interesting that the bottle was a worry for you because that hasn't been a big one for me at all. Ds still takes a bottle and I haven't been planning on doing anything with that until at least age two or older. For a long time he's only had two bottles a day (and we've fed on demand), but the last few weeks he's been wanting a bottle much more, so I have gotten a little bit nervous, but nothing like with the binky. Maybe because the bottle represents food while the binky represents comfort. I can accept that I can't provide his food, but it's harder to accept that I can't provide his comfort. (Through nursing--of course there is much, much comfort in other ways!)

You mentioned adoption and while I didn't really think of it before, it makes sense that there would be some insecurity deep within me that would add to this worry. But the more I think about it, I'm not sure it's adoption that's made me anxious about this as much as it's attachment parenting. AP is what make me worry about challenging ds's security and comfort. Adoption is what makes it so I can't meet all of those things in the "accepted" way (bf'ing), so I guess it would be a combination of adoption and attachment parenting.

Thanks for responding to my inner babbling! I worry about the strangest stuff sometimes!

[pilesoflaundry]

I worry about the strangest stuff sometimes!

I think we all do Laurel! :LOL And thank you for the welcome.:D

[corysmilk]

hi just thought i would say something . My oldest was a ff baby. I tried to bf him for 3 months, he would not latch. I had soo much milk. I pumped and put it in bottles. Then around 2 months my supply started to drop[no sucking] I started to give ff and then at 3 months all I could pump was really thin looking stuff that he would refuse to eat[weaning milk?] Anyway, allmost right away my son changed in to a different baby. He wasn't happy, he wouldn't sleep, he started to spit up after every feed. He was constipated... then he had the runs. It was horrable.
I was only 18 and to this day have never forgiven myself for not trying harder. My son was allergic to milk based formula so he was on soya. That stuff stinks!!!!!
He is 10 almost, and I still have a closer bond to my two bf children. I know that ff moms love their children. I love my son but, I didn't relize the bond could be closer.
I have looked at ff moms and i usally think 'what went wrong ' but i know 1st hand how hard it can be. I suffered many years of depresion cause he wouldn't bf. I wish I could let it go but, ff moms say" my baby is healthy", well my son was sick , sick . and I feel like I did that to him. He had exzema and skin rashes. It was awful.
any way

i am glad you can let it go

will i ever?:hammer :bawl

[Laurel]

Corysmilk-

Welcome! My ds had problems (colic, etc) that I know were related to formula. I did feel bad, but it also helped me to realize that there was truly nothing I could do about it. In my situation with not having been pg, I could not change my body. I"m not sure what you could have done different. 3 months trying to get a baby to latch is a long time--that's hardly "not trying hard enough"--and then the pumping on top of that.

Have you tried writing out your feelings, writing out the entire nursing story in detail as much as you can remember? That really helped me a lot, especially with differentiating what I could have controlled and what I could not have controlled.

As far as the bonding, I have felt like we do enough AP stuff that there is very little difference, but of course I won't know for sure until I get to bf another child. I don't know if you knew about or practiced AP at that time.

To help myself cope, I've reminded myself that surely nature wouldn't doom a mother and child to a lesser relationship over this, and I did everything in my power to compensate. I hope this doesn't sound like I am underestimating the power and importance of bf'ing, because I am not. I am determined to bf the next one--it's one of my foremost goals! But I just cannot accept that there is only one really good bonding tool and if you don't use it, you're doomed.

Forgive me if I'm totally off-base here. I hope you find healing! I recommend the journaling highly!

Also, I'll bet that most of us here haven't truly let go. I've come to a point of acceptance and comfort, but it still causes me quite a bit of sadness at times.

[corysmilk]

thank you for your kind words
I have been righting down some feelings in a journal and it has helped. i also want to bring it up with my therapist next time. I wonder if it wasn't the bfing at all that made me feel that way towards him. i was very young and i had bad ppd. i look back and relized. i did love him, sooo much he was my whole world i changed my life around for him. I did every thing to make sure he was heathy. i held him when he was up at night with ear infections i helped him learn to walk i watched him run off to play with his friends that first day of preschool. he truly is, my son!

i was young. i didn't know what i was doing. And I was learning,
learning to be a parent, now with #3 i am so much better, of course.
i tell ds #1 that he taught me how to be a mommy

he loves to hear it
any way thank you
this has been very good for me,
bfing....... ffing.... we all love our baby's

[SpiralWoman]

hi all~
I am so sorry I haven't been able to read thru all the posts to get to know you better, & don't have time to post my own story either. I sure belong in this tribe tho!
I do want to ask a question about different kinds of formula & see if anyone can help me out:
Griffin is taking from 18-24oz formula per day & breast feeding often, incl all nite on demand. We have been giving Similac Advance since he was 1 mo old, but now I am thinking about switching to an organic formula. Since he has started solids I have been picky about Organics only, so started to worry more about the formula, what's in it, esp GMOs etc. For so long I have just put that out of my mind while struggling... etc.

DH is afraid it might make DS sick to switch formulas & he is doing fine with the similac, any insight? I have been getting wound up tight about it all again after feeling more at peace a month ago. Sigh.

thanks a million, Maria

[Sleepymama]

I'm excited to see this thread too! I am still grieving not being able to exclusively breastfeed. My DS was born with a severe congenital heart defect and spent 3 weeks in NICU, 2 surgeries at 2 weeks and 3 months. I pumped my brains out, took all the herbs and domperidone, and never got more than about 12 ounces a day at my maximum. He did his part--finally learned to BF but always had to be supplemented with formula. Now at 13 months he gets maybe drops of bm a day, though he clings to my empty breasts like it's the end of the world. It makes me feel so awful that my body failed him. Every can of formula made me sick inside. I cried every time I pumped for months. I hate hate hate every bottle, washing them, traveling with all that crap. It just tears me up inside.

But I agree, there is noone to answer my questions about eating habits. No one continues to BF and supplement past a couple of months, they always go to FF only. He drinks bottles like a breastfed baby--a little at a time, not full 8oz bottles like most FFed babies. So it's impossible to find answers to my questions on mainstream boards, and on crunchy boards no one knows what I'm talking about.

But you know, I've never gotten negative comments. If I did, they would get an earful--walk in my shoes and then tell me what I did wrong. It makes me angry to think about it.

And we have also used donated milk--from someone I met on an internet board who lived nearby. The milk was free, and the mom had more than enough. This is a viable alternative to milk banks if you don't qualify, and many moms are dying to donate and can't because they take meds (like antidepressants which are totally safe but milk banks won't accept). BF support boards are great places to hook up to find donors.

[Sleepymama]

Maria, to answer your question, I'd stay away from that DHA/ARA crap like the plague. It won't make him sick to switch if you do it slowly. Start mixing 1 part new to 3 parts similac, go a few days, increase to 1:1, then 3:1, then all new. The transition should take at least a week and watch for signs he isn't tolerating the new--runny smelly poop, rash, tummy upset. But if you're switching dairy to dairy it won't be a big deal. It's when you switch dairy to soy or vice versa that problems happen. (and stay away from soy--there are studies it's bad for their development because of the estrogens in it)\

HTH
Steph

[Sleepymama]

Originally posted by PuppyFluffer
I have a question. Will a baby do any comfort nursing at the breast even if they don't get any milk or very little milk? For moms who have supply issues and have to supplement, do you still nurse for fixing booboos and such. I'm just wondering if the baby will even latch if they don't get much?


In our case, yes yes yes! I am the human pacifier. He latches still about 15x a day and still comfort nurses all night long. Sometimes that's the only way he'll take a bottle--latch on then I delatch him and stick the bottle in. He goes back and forth a lot.

In the beginning it was really frustrating though--we'd alternate bottle and breast feeding sessions because if he got the boob first he'd never take a bottle, and if bottle first then never latch on. So he ate about every hour. And I pumped. Geez, all I did was feed him!! He really LOVES to BF though. His eyes still roll back in his head when he latches on. I am grateful for that at least :)

On the solids question, I have a unique experience because DS has oral aversion due to surgeries. He didn't eat any pureed foods until 11 months and still eats practically nothing, although he is starting to taste some table foods now at 13 months. I often worry about vitamins and such but my ped assures me that the regular infant formula does have everything he needs. He just needs a LOT of it now. He drinks a small can every 2 days. But 6oz is the most he'll drink at a time, and it's usually more like 4oz. So he still gets about 7-8 bottles a day, plus one in the middle of the night. I don't have enough milk anymore to even quench his thirst at night. That is what really stinks! I hate going out to make a bottle in the night.

[SpiralWoman]

thanks Steph,
why is this dha/ara crap? I thought it was good, like the essential fatty acids bm has? Is it the way it's made? The Baby's Only organic brand @ Organicbebe.com has it in also & they also have a supplement of it.
What kind of formula do you use?

[corysmilk]

sleepymama
i just was on your web site. i am crying. what a beautiful story thank you for sharing! babe is a darling, what a little bundle,soooo cutie.

sorry I don't know what formula is good or better. I am bf'ing ds.
when i was ff'ing ds #1 he was on infalc, carnation, then some stuff that wouldn't mix together properly ( don't recall the name) then finally sma it was the only one that didn't cause him to have gas, runny or hard poos. any way at 6 months he had a servere reaction to the formula, he had the flu had elctrolye fluid for 24 hrs then back on his f . after six weeks........ yes 6 weeks of crohnic diarreha finally the dr said matbe he should be on soya.
he was sooo much better. i never thought to check the ff or anything i just thought if *they* sellit it must be good, for baby's RIGHT
i was pretty nieve back then:scratch

[Laurel]

Originally posted by Sleepymama
He drinks bottles like a breastfed baby--a little at a time, not full 8oz bottles like most FFed babies.

This is how my ds still is, and he's almost 18 months old. I can only think of 2-3 times in his entire life that he's downed an entire 8-oz bottle all at once. Even now it's often only 2-3 oz at a time, and it took him months to work up to that. We always fed on demand, even while bottlefeeding, and he was 4 1/2 months old before he was getting bottles full time. Before that he was nursing with a supplementer, so even though he was getting formula it was at the breast. I don't know if that's the reason or not. My ds also takes in the bottle nipple more like it were a breast. He doesn't get it quite as far back in his mouth as he did the breast, but he doesn't suck the end like most bottlefed babies either.

[Sleepymama]

On the DHA/ARA, there are absolutely NO studies that show it does anything good, and several that show it makes lots of babies gassy/upset tummies. My DS had horrible gas and screamed on the enfamil lipil they gave him in the hospital. At home we switched to regular carnation good start--now they make it with the acids but they didn't then. The proteins seem to be more broken down in it and it's easier for him to digest (we also spent 4 months on alimentum b/c of dairy sensitivity but then switched back to good start at 9 months) You can still get good start "supreme" w/o the acids.

They must make that organic formula without the acids. If not, that sucks. Basically, formula companies are advertising the DHA/ARA as the be-all end-all alternative to breastmilk, and it just makes the formula more expensive. Just MHO of course. Here is some research on it though. http://www.kellymom.com/nutrition/DHA-formula-comments.html

Thanks for looking at my site too :) I also have a breastfeeding story on BF.com if anyone wants to read it.
http://www.breastfeeding.com/reading_room/pump_room.html

[CaliMommie]

I just had to join you ladies! I can't tell you how good it feels to know I am not alone in this. I am unable to breastfeed my youngest son. Colby is almost 4-months-old. He bf exclusively for the first 2 months, and then had a sudden drop in weight. We went to our LC and it was deterined milk production wasn't an issue. After weeks of hospitalization we learned that he has sever exocrine pancreatic insufficiency. His body doesn't produce the enzymes necessary to digest fats. He is now on enzyme supplements & a specialized formula. I pumped for almost 6 weeks w/no bf while he was hospitalized & OP. I asked every day when he would be able to BF again & kept being told in a week or so. I am still suprised that Stanford wasn't more pro-breastfeeding!

Well, once home I finally rebelled & tried to bf (against the drs wishes; shame on me) but he will no longer take the breast. :( I am so disappointed. I bf my first until he weaned at 2 yrs, 8 mths, and had hoped to do childled weaning with Colby too. I cry all the time when I have to give him a bottle, and esp. when I see other mothers breastfeeding. I know I will adjust eventually (he has already started to ) and at leats he is finally gaining weight, but it's still very difficult.

If you made it all the way through this post, bless you!

AmiBeth

[SpiralWoman]

I cry all the time when I have to give him a bottle, and esp. when I see other mothers breastfeeding. I know I will adjust eventually hi Amibeth, boy do I know how you feel! I just wanted to say hi & wish you well in your adjustment to this. Feelings of sadness for me come & go, but I know I am being the best mom I can be, & so are you! Glad your fella is gaining well now!
Take care, Maria

[mymarliegirl]

oh wow, i feel like i've truly found my tribe. thank you. before i stumbled upon this thread i posted my (very) detailed story under the bf overcoming troubles heading. my dd is 6mos and it so breaks my heart that i don't bf. tried, tried, tried. i feel so close to her in every way, its hard to imagine being any tighter, but i'll never know that bond of bfing. i am slowly getting over it. after posting my story many kind-hearted moms replied and i began to feel better. i had been so scared to share my story on these boards, because nursing seemed to be the one common link for everyone. so glad to have found you guys!!! my heart is with you all.
i just wanted to put in my two cents about goats milk. i have a wonderful dr. who saw me in tears many times as i mixed up stinky soy formula, i had it branded in my brain that formula was evil. (dd allergic to cows milk form.) my doc. suggested goats milk. it is the closest thing there is to human milk (tho still no match!!!) apparently many women who do not/cannot nurse use goats milk in the first year of life. dd is doing great on it, it doesn't stink, it's thinner, it just seems better. i put one dose of infant liquid multi-vitamin in a bottle a day to cover iron needs. its working great for US. everyone needs to find what works best for them. i still hate having to bottle feed, but i do feel a little better about what i put in the bottle.
Thanks again for this thread........i feel like i'm home:)

[mymarliegirl]

oh yeah, i forgot to say that for me i knew the goats milk worked well with dd's system when her poop became light colored and soft again, as it was with breastmilk for the first 6 weeks. (we're all moms here, i can write about poop, right?) when we had started formula her bms had turned dark, very stinky and rock hard and that always made me so sad. her insides (and out) seems much happier now. maybe its an option for a few of you.

[Leatherette]

I BF'd my son until 14 months. I almost gave up many, many, times, because I had recurring mastitis that would not totally clear up, despite LC advice and docs and LLL on how to prevent them. I ran a low-grade fever for those 14 months, with 4-5 days every 6 weeks (or more) of a 104 degree fever. And diarrhea from having to take antibiotics all the freaking time.

My daughter was adopted, and I could not induce lactation. I did try (pumping and herbs for two months with zero results), but I can't help thinking I maybe would have tried harder if the experience with my son had not been so difficult. Part of me was so afraid of going through the mastitis again with only a tiny bit of milk being produced for my daughter, and dealing with the depression I had because I was so sick and couldn't enjoy my son's first year.

I think FF is a big pain in the ass (bottles, cleaning, night feeding). I hate feeding my daughter powder. It feels wierd every time I do it. But she is fed and fine, and everything else feels right. What can I say?

L.

[karuna]

Mymarliegirl: Where do you find goat's milk? Do you have to boil it or anything, or do you just buy it pasteurized, or give it raw?

I have a chronic illness and cannot bf all night, so we supplement at night so dp can feed our 7m.o. babe. It's so refreshing to hear support for those of us for whom our bodies or babies are not able to cooperate with our desire to bf! I've posted for advice in the BFing forum as well, got some support but also some guilt and misunderstanding.

Anyway, I think my dd is not totally doing well with the 10-12 oz of Similac (with the RHA stuff) and I think we should find another option. I REALLY like the goat's milk idea, but money is a HUGE issue. Food stamps and WIC pays for all our food and formula needs. I know WIC wouldn't cover goat's milk instead of formula, but if it's available in regular supermarkets, then food stamps would cover it.

[mymarliegirl]

Karuna,
The goats milk from the store comes pastuerized and ready to drink. Its sold in the milk section in quarts and 1/2 gallons, looks just like cows milk. Unfortunately it is expensive and around here we can only find it at co-ops and Whole Foods. I'm in the process of contacting a local farmer to see if we can buy direct from him (we're in Wisconsin after all!). Maybe the stores near you carry it--you could request it. Good luck!! It's really worked great for us:)

[budgiemama]

It's been great to read through this thread - so tired of having to explain why my ds was not bf past 4mos (he is 2), and tired of feeling guilty & defensive about it. It's nice to know so many of us are in teh same boat, if for varying reasons; mine happens to be the critical need for medication that is not compatible with bf. i decided to take my chances on formula as obviously could not pump either, rather than run the risk of troubles down the line from exposing him to my medication. it still breaks my heart that i didn't nurse him to this day. otoh he is a sturdy, incredibly healthy, loving, cuddly boy so something must have gone right.

as for the dha/ara issue, i would agree that at the very least they increase cost out of proportion to any possible benefit, and that they are unproven as far as risks/benefits. re: goats milk as mymarliegirl wrote, should be supplemented with multivitamin containing iron, B12 and folic acid otherwise pretty significant risk of anemia.

thanks for being here.

[elsjpo]

Hi.
My baby is 14mo old. Last May when I had her I tried desperately to bf. My midwife helped me, my sister (who was my doula) helped, the LC's in the hospital helped, I tried my Bradley teacher, and LLL finally a paid LC. All to no end!!!!! Apparenly I have none elastic/compressing tissue around my nipples so I may never be able to bf. sigh.. I tried diligently for 3 months... every 2 hours - we laid naked in bed all day... sigh... I was sad....
I pumped every 2 hours, 24hrs a day for exactly 6-months... I would have gone longer but I was exhausted, trying to work at home & my supply was dwindling.... I felt like such a bad mom when I stopped!!!!!
On the plus side, Cady was 5lb 9oz when born - at 6months she was 22lbs!!!! Now at 14months she's a happy healthy 31lb 33" kid!!! Never been sick (well, 2 colds but no biggie)!!!!

jeannette

[myboyz]

I was just saying to a friend today that it is hard to find the right fit. I would say I do a lot of AP stuff so I like to chat with others but feel uncomfortable around the Bfing issue. It is like no one understands and I have to either hide something or really explain myself.

My first was Hospitalized at 4 days old for 5 days. They thought it was menigitis..but it was dehydration. I stuck with it for a long 2 weeks with no support and my dad in the hospital 2 times....Oh yeah I forgot where I was ...I do not have to explain!!!! I am sad I had stopped but at the time it was the best thing for me and that was the very day I started really becoming attached to my child!!! My DH was totally against me even thinking about it with #2 but I did. It was hard on all the family as we were really worried and we needed to be as #2 was soooo hungray all the time and colicky. I pushed and made it through many more rough spots. I start