Formal Music Lessons for Toddlers?

[kalisis]

Does anyone have any thoughts on this?

Any kind of reading/links that they think might be helpful?

[Nora'sMama]

You might want to look into the Suzuki method (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suzuki_method)...they regularly start kids when they are toddlers. I took a Suzuki violin class when I was 5 and I was the oldest child...the youngest was 18 months. I have mixed feelings about it, especially since my mom was a Suzuki teacher and I saw a lot of kids go through the Suzuki course, play really really well at a young age, but then totally burn out and drop piano altogether. I think it's something that can be fantastic if it's child-directed...not so fantastic if it's more parent-led. Any child learning an instrument through the Suzuki method also needs repertoire that is not in the Suzuki books, IMO, especially jazz, folk songs, other nonclassical repertoire. It does get boring playing the same songs all the others are playing, even though the pieces in the Suzuki books are incredibly well-chosen and appealing.

Most "traditional" teachers would not take on a child younger than 5. However, if your child shows significant interest and musical talent from a young age, you might look into it - I'm sure there are teachers who will take students of any age who show promise. There is a program at Juilliard for very young prodigies. Formal lessons require a lot of focus, both for the lesson and for the required practice, but there are profoundly musically gifted children who can do this from a very young age. (Just for comparison, though, most kids are not ready until about age 8.)

[Roar]

Not sure if this is formal enough but we had good experience with this: http://www.musictogether.com/

It is great early ear training and will add fun songs and activities to your family.

[Terabith]

I recommend Musikgarten or Music Together. Kindermusik if your town doesn't have either of those; it has a lot of good things in it but I prefer Music Together and Musikgarten over Kindermusik. It's less systematic about teaching musical elements and is more commercially oriented. Also, it doesn't have as many folk songs in its curriculum. Suzuki could be good, in addition to one of those, after about 3 or so, if YOU learn the instrument first. (Start taking lessons from your child's teacher, a few months before you want him or her. It's based on the premise that a child wants to imitate his parents. So you can't just sign your kid up for Suzuki; YOU have to do it too.) Ask if you can attend free classes. As with anything, it's the teacher that makes or breaks it.

[Stacymom]

I could write a book on this. :wink

I'm a registered Suzuki violin teacher, and I love the method. It's based on a philosophy that every child can learn to play a musical instrument, just like every child can learn to speak. One of the important philosophies is that a child learns best ina loving, positive enviroment, and lesson concepts are broken down into tiny teaching points that are mastered one by one. It's also incredibly parent friendly if you find the right teacher- you don't have to have any musical instrument experience to help your child be sucessful. I respectfully disagree that a parent should start lessons before the child- I really haven't found it necessary; but a parent does have to be very involved in practicing, lessons, acitvities, etc. My best advice if you decide to go that route, is to observe a lot of teachers if possible before comitting to one, so you find one whose personality and style fit with you and your child.

I teach several children inthe 3-4 year old range and it's wonderfully sucessful. Just like learning a second language is easy as a young child, so is learning an instrument. I love watching my little ones discover and learn- they don't know that playing the violin is supposed to be hard, and they get so excited by their progress. My almost five year old is also doing Suzuki Violin with a different teacher and it's done wonderful things for her.

We have also had terrific experience with Music Together. I can't say enough good about that. My kids still listen to and sing the songs all the time, even though we haven't been to the classes in a year or so. I also founda range of "crunchy parents" there. My two year old would frequently nurse during class and she wasn't the oldest nursling!

Good luck in your journey, and pm if you have more questions. I'm always happy to talk someone's ear off about Suzuki. :p

[meemee]

ashley these are purely my thoughts based on the personality of my child. she loves music. she lives for music. she learnt how to work the cd player at 10 months so she could put on her own cds.

BUT she is also a free spirit and doesnt like formal lessons yet. she is v. high energy and it is v. hard for her to actually sit down and follow 'orders' no matter how good and patient the teacher is. she gets excited and wants to do things her own way.

sooooo i have decided not to put her in any formal school yet.

BUT.... i have surrounded her with musical instruments. whatever i can afford. for her first bday she got a casio keyboard. within a month she 'killed' it trying to figure out the buttons. she got the kazoo when she was what 9 months old and an egg 'shaker'. since then she has had drums, harmonica, banjo, guitar, recorder - a bunch of cultural instruments. she and her friend formed their own band the zanjoes and they have soooo much fun making up songs and playing their instruments.

and i also surround her different kinds of music which is when i discovered she loves japanese opera, opera, musicals, rock, the beatles (she can even tell you everything about them) and rolling stones.

she has told me she wants to take piano lessons. but i dont think she is ready to sit down and actually follow 'orders' however little it is.

i have also found she doesnt really like any of the music classes they do here because she always wants to do her own thing.

so right now i am just surrounding her with opportunities and giving her the chance to explore. and if she really wants to learn i will sign her up when she begs me.

i dont play any musical instruments but her dad does. so she follows him and strums on the guitar and creates her own lyrics and tunes. she is pretty good at strumming and knows about the different notes and chords. so i think when she is visiting her dad she kinda picks up by asking questions - the closest to lessons right now.

[~*SugarMama*~]

I am currently reading a book called "And the skylarks sing with me" that deals with the Suzuki method and homeschooling. From the small amount that I have already read, it sounds like a very promising method to any child that is very young and driven to learn a certain musical instrument.

[Terabith]

[QUOTE=Stacymom]
I respectfully disagree that a parent should start lessons before the child- I really haven't found it necessary; but a parent does have to be very involved in practicing, lessons, acitvities, etc.

I totally defer to you on this. I'm not a Suzuki teacher. All I know is what my sister in law (who is a Suzuki violin) has told me. I imagine there are probably a bunch of different positions on that! And now that I think of it, I think she was maybe referring to young toddlers when she said the parents needed to start off with lessons first (like the 18 month old, 2 yr old aged kids), rather than the preschoolers.

[sarahlou]

Thanks for the ideas, everyone. My son just turned 3, and he has been asking about playing guitars and violins for a year now. We've gotten him all kinds of toy instruments and even a small (used) guitar, but he's asking for a violin with strings (his dad made him one out of cardboard, but he wants the real thing!) I've hesitated on calling teachers just because I don't want to push him if he's too young, but I also don't want to squander his natural interest and talent!
One tip I can share with you is that my children both love to watch Andre Rieu's concerts (televised by PBS, available on VHS and DVD at Amazon and through Netflix). They are getting wonderful exposure to classical music, watching the musicians play their instruments, observing concert behavior, without me having to lug small children to performances (which usually take place at their bedtime anyway).

[meemee]

sarahlou also look around for free classical events around you. our public library has it and some of the symphonies have at least teh first performance for lower priced tickets. these are not easy to find but they are out there. and the good part is because these are for families (afternoons here) they open an hour early and let the children check out and ask questions about the instruments.

unfortunately my dd is off classical music for now. she is a big beatles and rolling stones fan. so we go to see bands in coffee shops since she is a night owl. she enjoys the music. all summer we also have concerts in the park at around 6 pm meant specifically for children.

[lurable]

If you are looking for an informal music class try "the music class" themusicclass.com Their main "selling point" is making the class as informal as possible. If you are in Canada the classes are offered through "Music for Young Children" www.myc.com Hope this helps!

[eilonwy]

Stacymom-- how would one go about finding Suzuki teachers in their area? I've visited several websites, but I know there are teachers out there and I'm not finding them. :scratch

[Stacymom]

Hey Rynna-

Try www.suzukiassociation.org and click on the "parents" heading. Then you should be able to navigate a teacher search.

You could also try calling local music stores in your area and see if they can refer you to someone. Make sure you interview any of these carefully, because they may not have the qualifications you want. Often, teacher will say they "teach Suzuki" or "Use the Suzuki Books" but have had no formal teacher training. This will sound elitist, but I don't think anyone can teach the Suzuki method in its intended form without going through the teacher training courses.

Or, you can PM me where you live, and I can look up some teachers for you in my National Directory. :wink

Good luck. :violin

[Enudely]

Music Together!!!!
It's extremely rare for a toddler to be ready for formal music instruction. They are not truly ready until they can consistently sing a whole song in tune while keeping the beat.

[eilonwy]

Music Together!!!!
It's extremely rare for a toddler to be ready for formal music instruction. They are not truly ready until they can consistently sing a whole song in tune while keeping the beat.

Keep in mind that this is a forum for parents of gifted children; some of these kids are even profoundly gifted. Both of my older children were capable of singing "a whole song in tune while keeping the beat" by the time that they could speak in complete sentences (15 and 20 months, respectively). I know that they're not alone in being capable of such a feat as toddlers. ;)

[Roar]

Keep in mind that this is a forum for parents of gifted children; some of these kids are even profoundly gifted. Both of my older children were capable of singing "a whole song in tune while keeping the beat" by the time that they could speak in complete sentences (15 and 20 months, respectively). I know that they're not alone in being capable of such a feat as toddlers. ;)

I agree. And, kids who are capable of singing a whole song in tune without missing a beat or many of them may still enjoy Music Together type classes. I know my son really loved them and got so much out of the experience.

[Enudely]

wow!

[eilonwy]

Don't get me wrong, I *love* Music Together; Bean and I visited a class when he was a little fella, and it was so much fun. The trouble is, it's *very* expensive and it's designed for a one-to-one parent child ratio; I'd need an obscene amount of money to do MT classes, because not only would I have to pay for two of my three children, but I'd have to pay two other people to come along with them and chase. :lol

[Terabith]

Wow, that sucks! :( The Music Together program here is all about families, and most of the parents have two or three kiddos with them. Must be an instructor thing. But out MT teacher says that one of the hallmarks of MT is the multiage environment that mimics real life, which in turns helps you integrate music into the rest of YOUR daily life. A philosophy I totally love. Plus, I told the teacher that I really would *love* to take the class but it wasn't in the budget; could I barter with her, and she said that she didn't barter but to come on for free. Yay! :love

[Shiloh]

we did the suzuki method as small kids oh that violin was so cute looking at it now I think it was a 1/16 or a 1/32 tiny. But my mom really didn't pick the right instrument for me, I cringe when I hear about you have to start with piano or violin type people I have man hands ;) even as a small child I played two notes at once on the violin it was painful (and for the people who heard me ;) Piano might have been a better choice but I could never get my left hand up to snuff.

Get creative with music there are so many cool instruments out there and teachers are not that hard to find. I eventually settled in the double bass which was great for my big old man hands!

Also there are great music things you can do as a family like african drumming, steel drum bands. I had a friend whose son was a natural drummer from the time he could crawl he was always interested in what tones an object made it was neat to see. Get a range of instruments to have at home lessons can make things seem external to the home environment not part of it. Expose them to music of all types.

They are not truly ready until they can consistently sing a whole song in tune while keeping the beat.LOL then my profoundly gifted mother will never be able to take music lessons! (actually she did piano fine as a child but man she still can't sing as babies she'd sing us to sleep and we'd START crying, we didn't even let her sing in church...at christmas time)

[sofia712]

I want to learn guitar, but I'm having trouble finding a teacher in my area that can work with in my schedule. Someone suggested that I get some lessons on DVD. So I got a video and the songs where country songs and they just bored me. Does anyone have any helpful advice on some guitar lessons videos, and where I can get them? I do know a little, some cords and stuff, but I'm still really an amateur. Please help me.

[monkaha]

Stacymom-- how would one go about finding Suzuki teachers in their area? I've visited several websites, but I know there are teachers out there and I'm not finding them. :scratch

We found ours by accident. Went to the local music store that offered lessons and requested someone who was experienced with young kids (DD was 6 at the time, and our first instructor was not so good with little kids). At the first lesson, the instructor asked if it would be ok if she taught DD using the Suzuki method.

It was great for a while, but now DD is over her initial obsession with violin and wants to quit. I'm torn between wanting her to stick it out and learn that not everything will come easy to her, but she can do it, and going more child- led and letting her decide. I just fixed my cello, so maybe with a playing partner she'll be more interested in practicing.

[carmel23]

I just fixed my cello, so maybe with a playing partner she'll be more interested in practicing.


monkaha, Does your S instructor require that you play with your daughter? We know a lovely cello S instructor and she requires that the parent rent/purchase a cello as well as one for the student. The parent must practice with the student--because this demonstrates that it is really important and part of the life of the family.

We've adapted this to our family but by picking a type of music that is very accessible and playing it as a family. We have a collection of folk instruments and love trad music. Sing a lot as a family--turn off the cd player (important if you have perfectionists about!) and make the music yourself. My guys love to write songs and it is really easy to record them in garageband on the computer or 'write' them down.

A strumstick (http://www.strumstick.com/) is a lot of fun. My guitar obsessed baby girl can play it with a bit of help. Ukuleles are also really fun--and it is easier to play then guitar.

Just have a time everyday where you play music. There is a logic in an instrument that a curious mind can discover for themselves with or without formal instruction.

[monkaha]

She doesn't require it. DD has been resisting practicing, though, and I'm hoping this will help at least a bit. I do see the logic of having music be a family thing, showing the importance of it and all. Recent scheduling has prevented it from being priority around here, and I'm wanting to change that for the summer. We'll see....

[Bird Girl]

The wife of our violin teacher (who was herself the home teacher to their four children) gave a talk about practicing at our last Suzuki graduation. She used a handout that gave the stages of practicing as follows:

ages 4-7--I practice because Mommy wants me to
ages 7-14--I practice because I have to
ages 14-18--I practice because I perform a lot and I need to do it
age 18+--I love music

So if you wait until children love music to practice, they won't be children anymore.

I am personally comfortable making daily practice a rule at our house because it's a job for me, too, and because I want my daughter to have exposure to something that doesn't come instantly and easily, but rather requires hard work every day. I don't consider it an optional "extra-curricular," but rather part of her character development. However, your personal tolerance for compulsory activities may vary.:D

One thing is certain; if you are dithering about forcing the practice issue, your child will exploit that. So it's best to make up your mind, and then decide to follow through on whatever you decide.

[Roar]

ages 4-7--I practice because Mommy wants me to
ages 7-14--I practice because I have to
ages 14-18--I practice because I perform a lot and I need to do it
age 18+--I love music

So if you wait until children love music to practice, they won't be children anymore.

.

Wow, this is really negative. I'm wondering if this jives with the experience of other people. Our child practices because he loves music and because he wants to improve and recognizes that practice is necessary to make that happen. We started from the position that he's fortunate to be able to have lessons and we've never taken on the role of making him practice.When he started lessons we expressed that practicing would be his responsibility and as long as he did we'd be glad to pay for lessons. When he started lessons we expressed that practicing would be his responsibility and as long as he did we'd be glad to pay for lessons.

[mama41]

We're taking a break from violin now (dd begged for it and we started just after she turned 4). She wasn't too keen on touching the instrument between lessons, and I've got enough to do in the evenings without cajoling her into practicing; music is definitely not one of my things, either, so it wasn't something I could easily cajole about. I let it ride for the school year, and then decided we'd stop until she was willing to practice for a little while most nights. It's just too expensive for weekly "fun with the violin teacher, except when you don't feel like playing" sessions. I'm still renting the violin in case she feels like messing around with it.

We didn't do Suzuki and I have to say I'm glad. I learned by Suzuki, which felt very rigid to me at the time, and it made reading music much harder later on. Dd recognizes notes by name, not by A1, A2, etc., and I think that'll help her. It's helped in practicing, too, because if I couldn't get her to play the violin, she'd sometimes come play piano games, and then from there we'd get F# on the piano, F# on the violin, etc. She also enjoys the music theory workbooks. I might reconsider Suzuki if there were a good-sized class around that didn't require the parents' gung-ho attendance -- having other kids around might motivate dd more to pay attention to posture, bowing, etc.

Personally, I think violin's a tough first instrument -- physically it's difficult and awkward for quite a while. I don't know that I'd do it if the kid didn't ask & ask for it.

[mama41]

Oh, and Roar, that practice handout was exactly my experience as a kid. I wasn't given a choice about playing an instrument -- I could choose which one I wanted, but music was part of my education, like it or not. Practicing was not optional. I detested it. Stomach-ache detested and loathed it. Not for lack of adult models of enjoying playing, either -- I had relatives who played in major symphony orchestras and were professional songwriters; my mother called herself untalented (and more or less was) but was very diligent and I can still hear her practicing her Telemann. My father was utterly musicless but loved the sound. I took lessons till I was 15, at which point I left home and never thought about bringing the violin along. And boy, was I surprised, in early adulthood, when I got my violin again and went voluntarily to lessons, and practiced, because the sound was so beautiful. I'm still lousy and clumsy, and have no sense of rhythm or modulation, but it's a lovely and restorative way to spend an hour.

[Bird Girl]

Do you think it is negative? There's a difference between the joy of playing, and the pleasure of going to the summer workshop and making great music all day long and the day-in-and-day-out of practicing. I think it pretty accurately describes most of the kids I know who've done music for any length of time (including myself.) First, they practice because the parent is taking out the instrument, calling them over and telling them it's time. Then, they realize that practicing is an important part of playing their instrument. Then, as they perform more and more, they realize that they must lengthen and deepen their practice time in order to get what they want out of the instrument. Then, they realize that it's something they do for the sheer joy of it, as their hobby, or, if they're really nuts about it, as an avocation. Perhaps it's predicated on the idea that kids have more performance opportunities when they are secondary students, and fewer as they move toward college and full-time employment, where they have to carve out time to do it.

I would say that if you had a five year old who genuinely managed his/her own practice on a daily basis, patiently going through all the things that the teacher asked for during lesson, and reviewing not just once, but multiple times, then, yes, you have an unusual kid. Most children who have practice left up to them wind up dropping out, in fairly short order. Violin is not something you can learn to have a lot of success on when you only take it out once a week.

And Mama41--that's exactly how my playing goes, and is! It's more meditation then a moving experience for my listeners. But hey, I'm having fun!

[Roar]

I would say that if you had a five year old who genuinely managed his/her own practice on a daily basis, patiently going through all the things that the teacher asked for during lesson, and reviewing not just once, but multiple times, then, yes, you have an unusual kid. Most children who have practice left up to them wind up dropping out, in fairly short order. Violin is not something you can learn to have a lot of success on when you only take it out once a week.



Ah, five year old. This is the reason why I wouldn't have most five year olds take lessons. Lessons are a major commitment of family time and resources. If a kid isn't motivated to put the time in I wouldn't devote my time and resources to it. We waited until our child was really committed and mature enough to be the one responsible for practicing. He started at age 7 and is now in his fifth year. We consider it our jobs as parents to: drive, to pay for lessons, to provide the equipment, to provide an audience as desired, to give help when asked and to allow for time in the day for practice. I have never considered it my job to make the kid practice or to supervise if he's practicing correctly.

I guess it depends on your goals. What I hope for in music lessons: fun, developing an increased appreciation for and understanding of music and having the experience of working steadily over time at something that requires effort. Being able to play the instrument well and to have it as a possible thing to enjoy for life are bonuses. For me the parent taking on a major role in this process makes it difficult to accomplish the goals we had.

Oh and if it matters I had years of lessons in two instruments. I was expected to practice and I did. I can't say I always loved it and there were times I struggled with motivation, but that was my struggle - not my parents' struggle. To make it a parents' struggle sends a pretty negative message to the child about the experience and about their own capabilities.

[Bird Girl]

No, my goals are the same as yours. My experience with Suzuki method was obviously more positive than those of some of the posters here. Oh well.

We do have fun with it; no benighted little Beethovens being screamed at by their drunken parents, I assure you.

[LauraLoo]

DS begged and begged for vioin lessons (no other instrument would do) and started him when he was 5.5. We encouraged him to practice, which he did 2 to 4 x/week on average. Mid way through this year he stopped practicing all together. We were pretty busy and I didn't notice right away. Then he started resisting going to lessons all together. I asked him if he wanted to quit, and he didn't, but he was afraid to go to lessons. His instructor is a great lady and has really customized her approach to suit ds. What I finally figured out was that he was afraid to go to lessons when he didn't feel prepared, and he wasn't prepared when he hadn't practiced very much at all. I'm sure this is all very much related to perfectionism. DS hasn't had to work at very much, but he does need to work when he plays violin.

At one point when he resisted going to lessons, I seriously contemplated just letting him quit. It wasn't worth a struggle. But deep down I knew he didn't want to quit - the kid LIVES for music. Something else was bugging him. When he finally admitted that he didn't want to quit, but he didn't want to "sound bad," we had to have a serious discussion on the benefits of daily practice.

So, we started a new routine. Practice after dinner for as long as ds wanted to practice. If he practiced for 2 minutes or 10 minutes or 20 minutes, I didn't care. He just needed to get into the *habit* of practicing every day. Guess what? He started having better lessons, making better progress, and began practicing on his own again because he *loved* playing again.

We decided to take a break from lessons over the summer like a summer vacation, because I was afraid of him burning out. He hasn't had lessons for 3 weeks now. Last night he told me that he missed playing and wanted to start lessons again.

[mama41]

Oh and if it matters I had years of lessons in two instruments. I was expected to practice and I did. I can't say I always loved it and there were times I struggled with motivation, but that was my struggle - not my parents' struggle. To make it a parents' struggle sends a pretty negative message to the child about the experience and about their own capabilities.

Roar, I really don't think this is true. We have a a major music school here that starts the kids as toddlers and expects the parents to be heavily involved from go -- attending lessons, practicing with the children, etc. (Obviously I don't take my daughter there.) The kids I know who go there don't seem to suffer any sense of inadequacy about their abilities -- on the contrary. And really they are quite impressive. On the whole the kids are very serious about it. They just have an expectation about it that I don't want my daughter to have, because I can't afford it -- that I'm going to governess her through it.

I had a negative experience with music lessons because I loathed them, they were a weekly embarrassment, and it was obvious to me that I had zero talent. I sympathized with my music teachers, who loved music, and who had to pretend that I might get better. I felt bad for my violin. Did my mother's daily, "Time to practice...You're not finished yet...I don't hear anything...Keep going, you're not done yet...Do that one again...." make me feel wonderful about my capabilities? Actually I was so busy feeling like I was in jail and that I would never ever ever ever have fun again that I didn't really have time to worry about my capabilities. Besides, that part was simple. I didn't have any, when it came to making music, which seemed to me no more scarring or debilitating than the fact that I wasn't six feet tall and suffered a sort of Heisenberg problem in the outfield (I could see how fast a ball was going, or where it was, but not both at the same time). It was just a fact. A highly inconvenient one, given that I had to keep taking the instrument out of the case, but a fact nonetheless.

Am I glad now that she put me through all that? Of course. For one thing, I did theatre from the time I was twelve, because I loved it, and the passing acquaintance with music helped me get parts. And for another, the marvelous thing about childhood is that for much of it, when it's done, it's done, and it turns out to be a small part of your life. I never have to practice again, if I don't want to. But when I do, it makes me very happy, and it's easy. I have the instrument, I have the music, the path is well-worn.

[monkaha]

We do have fun with it; no benighted little Beethovens being screamed at by their drunken parents, I assure you.

:lol

[mama41]

We do have fun with it; no benighted little Beethovens being screamed at by their drunken parents, I assure you.

You mean this isn't fun for parents?

Oh.

<skratch skratch skratch>

[Roar]

Roar, I really don't think this is true. We have a a major music school here that starts the kids as toddlers and expects the parents to be heavily involved from go -- attending lessons, practicing with the children, etc. (Obviously I don't take my daughter there.) The kids I know who go there don't seem to suffer any sense of inadequacy about their abilities -- on the contrary. And really they are quite impressive.

I was posting very quickly and I don't think I explained myself well.

I don't think students will necessary feel like they aren't good musicians. I'm sure they sound great and are generally pleased with sounding great. And, they get something from taking lessons and being in the group.

My concerns come from my experience as a homeschooler. My biggest goal is to have a self motivated kid who enjoys learning and is not only capable of learning independently, but finds learning to be a joy. For our family music lessons are a major financial undertaking (I just added up that we are over the $10,000 mark now). I can't imagine devoting that much of our resources and then being expected to nudge a resistant child to practice. I just don't see what the end point of that would be because there are so many things in life to enjoy and to learn from. Many people have the idea that all kids should take music lessons or that there is something special message about learning that comes from music lessons that doesn't come from other activities or forms of study. I believe it is more important to look to what the child is actually motivated to do. If they aren't motivated to practice without being forced into it, then I don't think they are mature enough or interested enough to take music lessons.

Am I glad now that she put me through all that? Of course. For one thing, I did theatre from the time I was twelve, because I loved it, and the passing acquaintance with music helped me get parts.

Wow, yeah, we are coming from a really different perspective.

We have limited time, energy and money. I'd rather devote it to the myriad of choices that offer not just "gee it wasn't that bad" in retrospect. I'd rather offer the child a chance to really stretch in areas where they are eager to learn. The reality is that MOST people don't play the instruments they studied as children when they are adults. But, ALL of us hopefully continue to study and learn. It is a question of process versus product. I don't consider being able to play the violin at 7 to be worth a kid learning that they must be coerced to practice because learning is unpleasant. Reading the age practice list to me speaks to kind of negativity about the process that I wouldn't want my kid exposed to.

[Roar]

So, we started a new routine. Practice after dinner for as long as ds wanted to practice. If he practiced for 2 minutes or 10 minutes or 20 minutes, I didn't care. He just needed to get into the *habit* of practicing every day. Guess what? He started having better lessons, making better progress, and began practicing on his own again because he *loved* playing again.



I think it is fine to say to a kid, my part of your taking lessons is paying and driving. Your part is practicing. How would you like to set that up as a daily routine and what can I do to support you?

I see that as really different than the parent nagging and then standing over the child with a clock.

[allgirls]

So how old would a child need to be to start piano lessons? My nearly 5 year old has been bugging me for 2 years now. I never learned an instrument so I have no idea how old kids start them
(though I am aware of the Suzuki method for violin and how young that starts)

My 2.5 year old is ready for something because she can consistently sing a whole song in tune while keeping the beat and has been able to for quite a while...she's really pretty good and she sings all the time..not necessarily kids songs either.

I did Kindermuzik with my nearly 5 year old but I'm like Eilonwy...it is just hard to manage with two in different classes at the same time and I have to be there..and it was really costly.

We have a piano teacher taking students down the road..I just wonder if 5 will be old enough

[mama41]

allgirls, try it. If it's not time, you'll find out.

Roar, I see what you're saying -- I'm sure not going to sit there yelling "Keep going, you're not done yet" either (well, not yet); my mom had the luxury of being a SAHM, and she had time for that sort of thing. (Our music lessons were actually really cheap, so I don't think money was an issue.)

I look at music as part of a Western education, part of a cultural and intellectual education. Much of it you just get from being around, from its being a way of life -- in my house I had my mother practicing, and we had little current pop music around till my brother dragged home the K-TEL. I remember a lot of Joplin rags, operetta, classical, Herb Alpert, more classical/baroque, more classical, show tunes. When I got to college -- well, they were on the same page; my dorm advisor arranged for us to go to the opera, and my boyfriend used to wander around the house singing opera. (Nice voice, too.) My dad gave me an early CD player and three disks I still have: Andras Schiff playing Songs Without Words, a Brahms thing I was surprised to like (the "all flesh is grass" thing), and...eh, it's got the Elvira Madigan on it. Dd's dad is, or was, a clarinetist. So I was surprised when I found out that this stuff is not part of a normal American childhood, and it seems to me that there's a whole part of life that's thin, without it. (My real education began when I worked as a music librarian, just by chance -- I shelved and listened, shelved and listened, and it was wonderful. That was the first time I heard Gershwin, and Bruno Walter, and Wagner, and Charles Ives. I was afraid of Palestrina.) Some passing ability with the notes, some understanding of what an instrument is -- I think this is part of the education. I don't believe the child must love it at the time. I'm not sure I needed ten years of it, but if I hadn't gone that long I doubt I'd have gotten good enough to approach anything much past the end of the third Suzuki book. And that would make things more difficult now, when I want to play.

My God, I miss the sound of musicians in their houses. Really pissy people on the whole but I put on a CD of an old Dennis Brain recording, and in brought that whole sound back, the timbre of a private practice space w/o fluorescent lighting. It hit me like a brick. That's a good thing about getting marched through playing, too, you end up hanging around and listening to your teachers and their friends & able students in the places where they play.

[Roar]

So I was surprised when I found out that this stuff is not part of a normal American childhood, and it seems to me that there's a whole part of life that's thin, without it.

Hmm...I don't know if I agree music isn't a part of a "normal American childhood". It seems there are lots of childhood experiences. We certainly had plenty of music in my house growing up and that's the case for most families I know. There was also some exposure to classical music through school programs. (though unfortunately of course many of those are being cut these days).

I'm certainly not arguing against music exposure. In fact, I'd suggest that I'd like to see the balance shifting to more LISTENING and appreciating music and less to insisting every kid take lessons. I believe part of why our son has motivated as a music student is because he already loved and knew classical music before he started lessons.

[BrandiRhoades]

Roar, I started piano at 8 and still pay (not much now, but some). I also played flute from ages 10 - now (was a scholarship musician in college), and I played oboe for 3 years. My mother never nudged me to practice, either, so I don't think that it's necessary for parents to do. I actually think being good at an instrument has to be something the child wants to do, not something the parents are "involved" with beyond support - financial, emotional, physical.

[Tanjuska]

Hi,

I would just like to say that it is great to fill your child's day with activities and mostly activities like sport and music or some other activity where a kid can express him or herself. At the end, what counts, is that child is enjoying it.
My parents took me to violin classes and I enjoyed it first 2 years, after that it was suffering for me, my teacher and my parents. :eyesroll Thus it would be better to spent that time at something I loved doing it....

[Bird Girl]

I will say that for me, there is a whole spectrum between "child forced to practice for XX minutes every day, hates every second of it, dreads everything to do with classical music" and "child loves to practice, parents completely free of involvement with daily practice" My best friend in high school used to practice the piano with his father sitting next to him; when he hit the wrong key, his father would whack that finger with a ruler. Ghastly.

I can't speak for all Suzuki teachers and the practice of the Suzuki method of talent development in all places and in all times. Like the Montessori method, it can be used in a loving way to develop the whole child, or it can be a cold and unengaging list of rules that are never deviated from. I can speak about my own experiences with my great aunt who was one of the first Suzuki teachers in America, my own experience at workshops and in youth orchestras that were unaffiliated with that pedagogy. And I can speak about the program my daughter's in, and how her teacher is, and what his goals are for children moving through his programs.

I also think that some aspects of life require discipline. I knew plenty of kids, for example, in high school, who wanted to be in the band, but quit due to the practice requirement. They were disappointed afterward. The same is true for other kinds of learning; you may want to be in AP literature, but if you don't complete the summer homework assignment, you won't be let in. Not all parts of learning are fun and enjoyable; you do have to take some lumps with the good. I know that there are musicians who enjoy every moment they have with their music, but I think that saying that every child who doesn't look on practice as an enjoyable activity should be encouraged to quit, that any child who won't practice without encouragement from their parents shouldn't produce music but should be limited to listening to it; that would be a pity.

Each parent provides a different level of discipline and has different requirements for their kid. What I would like to add to the discussion is just my experience that music lessons can be very beneficial to kids, especially gifted kids, who can fall into the trap of seeing the easy completion of every task as somehow inherent to their self-image. And I think it's OK to expect that learning music will sometimes be a struggle, and that sometimes the parent may feel like there's just no motivation there. We keep going anyhow, and we always get back to those good feelings on the other side. Others may disagree; this is just my experience.

[pumpkinmom2]

My son (4 1/2 )has not even been tested for giftedness and he does great at his piano lessons. Since I can remember he would twist his fingers in weird configurations and I always said to him "we have to get you to use that talent for something." Well he started lessons and the teacher says he is grasping concepts that some of her 7year olds don't get. He will play one key at a time, keep the beat/rythm, follow the written music. She said he still has the attention span of a 4yo but she is patient and gets a kick out of him. She is even letting him in the recital because he played his little peice by memory last week. :thumb

So if they show intrest or promise, I say go for it!

He loves it and askes if it is wed. so he can go to his lesson. He does better one-on-one and the kinder music classes seemed more like play then learning imo.

[expecting-joy]

I am following this thread with interest - and a little trepidation. My 4 yo wants to do Suzuki violin w/me in the fall. I haven't any musical experieince. I worry about her getting in over her head and the whole practice issue.

[mommajb]

I haven't read all the responses but...

My ds who is now 11 started piano at 4. He was already a very good reader and had no trouble learning to read music. The violin teacher wouldn't take him until much later so he decided he wanted piano. (patience is not one of his virtues.) The only requirement the (retired ps music) teacher had was that he be able to read books. I have never had an issue regarding practice. From the beginning he would explain theory to her, not the other way around. He is still taking lessons (at our local liberal arts college) and enjoys it immensely. His hands are already larger than mine length and size wise so that has never been an issue for him. Music may not be his thing in the long run but this is what worked for him.

9 yo dd started at 4 also, dropped it by her choice this past winter and I have no plans to start 5 yo dd this fall even though she could. It just isn't her thing. I am not saying it is for everybody, just sharing my experience.