The unkindest cut

[Very Snoofly]

I'm relatively new here...meaning that I've read bunches of posts but don't often chime in. I've loved reading all the Working Mamas threads...it's nice hearing of other women who are going through the same conflicts/problems/joys/etc that I am!

There's something that's been on my mind lately and I've hesitated to post about it, because I don't intend it to start a debate about the merits of staying at home/working outside the home, and I'm afraid that it has the potential to become that. But, with that disclaimer attached, here goes:

I can't tell you how much it bothers me to read comments like this (and these are just random examples, I don't remember who wrote them or where): "I chose to quit my job and stay at home because I want to raise my children." Or: "I didn't want to go to work and pay someone else for the privilege of raising my children." Or: "I am fortunate that I am able to stay at home and raise my children myself."

Do these words bother any other WOHM's? Do they seem to imply to you, as they do to me, that mothers who work outside the home are NOT raising their children? That's what I infer (rightly or wrongly, I know). And I just want to scream! I want to explain that, even though I am away from her 37 hours a week, I am still the one raising my daughter! (Well, and my husband too, of course.) I nurse her, I sleep with her, I bathe her; I choose her toys and books and clothes. I get up in the middle of the night when she's sick or hungry or teething. And as far as those 37 hours per week that I'm apart from her--well, I'm not there, but I chose the people with whom she stays, with her best interests in mind. I'm not there for every nap, but I make sure that her care providers put her to sleep gently (rocking, singing, a bottle if she wants it). I'm not there for every meal, but I monitor what she's fed (difficult when one of her babysitters is my mother-in-law who thinks that Jell-o is a the ultimate healthy treat!). I dictate how much TV she gets, how she is disciplined, what toys and activites are appropriate. Certainly her care providers are going to have an influence on how she grows up, but they're not raising her for me--they're tending to her needs, in a manner approved by me, when I can't be there for her.

I feel very strongly about this (obviously)! But I've never responded to one of those comments with the above diatribe, because I'm terribly afraid that I'll just sound defensive. And if I sound defensive, I'll get the old spiel about how defensiveness=guilt=knowing that I'm doing something harmful to my child. (You know, the arguments that circle round and round the breast/bottle, cloth/disposable, co-sleeping/crib debates). And it'll just descend into bickering about semantics, and no one's mind will be changed.

But the truth is, even if I do feel guilty about having to work (and yes, I do feel guilty, and I do HAVE to work), that still doesn't mean that I'm not the one raising my child!

I try to let these comments just roll off my back...but it's hard. And it hurts. Because I hate feeling that anyone else thinks that I'm shortchanging my daughter.

Am I being oversensitive? This ever bother any other working moms?

[SoHappy]

I think you should take their words at face value and not try to see them as a reflection or judgement of you. Sometimes people choose imprecise wording without intending to offend -- they just don't know how to accurately say what they mean.

[Lucky Charm]

No, it doesnt bother me. at all.

I am comfortable with myself, my choices and my kids are absolutely yummy!

I should say that it depends on how its said. Its not what you say, but how you say it., kwim?

[wolfmom]

dear kristaciel - I think I understand where you are comming from but I really doubt these other people mean it in the way you are receiving it. I think they are making a statement about their personal beliefs and situations. I too work out of the home some hours every week and I know that it is the best for my family. Please try not to take offense. Most of the people here know that you do what is best for your family.
peace and health,
wolfmom

[vesta]

I WOHM but less than 20 hours/week. I personally would not feel good about being gone from my kids 40 hours/week, but that is me. I don't think moms who work 40 hours/week are bad moms. I only know what works for me.

Even though I would not like being a FT WOHM, I would not criticize someone else for doing it. By the same token, I expect other people to respect my parenting choice to work PT and not call me unfeminist, over-protective, or lazy for not doing so. Believe me, there are plenty of people out there who think SAHM's are lousy parents for not contributing financially to their families. You can't win for losing if you always take other people's opinions to heart.

As far as guilt, it doesn't matter if you're a SAHM or a WOHM. Guilt is part of the job description of being a mother!

[asherah]

Well, it does bother ME.

There's a difference in saying "this is what works for me, because..."
and saying things that criticize others by implication.

Yes, maybe it is sometimes a matter of choosing the wrong words.. but other times I think the "mommy wars" are rearing their ugly ugly heads.

I think all women are hurt when we point fingers at each other like that. We all lose. We should be working together to give women a range of good choices and support, not taking shots at each other.

Unfortunately some women on both sides are so self-righteous and/or insecure, they persist in undermining their sisters. And yes, it bothers me.

[Very Snoofly]

I'm getting a range of reactions, and thinking that perhaps I am overreacting a little bit...but Vesta and asherah, that's what I was getting at...that there is an implied criticism in that particular choice of words. And it's not so much that I feel judged (because after all I don't know these people), but that I don't like it when mothers judge other mothers for their choices (as long as those choices don't include neglect or abuse, obviously).

That said, my sensitivity could stem from the fact that, right after I went back to work, an acquaintance said to my best friend, "Well, it's just too bad that Krista won't be the one raising Mallory." And, since this person happens to be pretty nasty and vindictive, I know that she did mean it "that way." It really hurt (mostly because I had just started back to work, and was upset and emotional anyway), and I remember it every time I see another person using that same phrase.

On the other hand, I am confident that I am doing my best for my family, and I have an adorable, happy, bright little girl. At the end of the day, that's all that matters.
:D :D :D :D :D

[owen&mama]

Originally posted by asherah
Well, it does bother ME.

...Unfortunately some women on both sides are so self-righteous and/or insecure, they persist in undermining their sisters. And yes, it bothers me.

Just had to chime in to say...AMEN.

I agree that much of what is "said" is just a poor choice of words, and it's especially difficult to derive context from the written word. But, I have read certain comments, like those mentioned, and I have to agree that there is often obvious slamming going on (from both sides).

I am comfortable in my choices for my family, and I wish for everyone else that they would be comfortable enough not to feel the need to make hurtful (passive-aggressive or not) comments. Does my being comfortable mean that the guilt isn't there? Of course not. As someone said, that's part of being a mother. And that guilt is what allows me to be hurt by the comments. I've gotten better at ignoring them though. I'm hard enough on myself, to be quite honest! :)

With respect to those specific types of comments, some wise one of us posted a few weeks back on another thread that she embraced day care for her child as a way to experience another caregiver's influence, that she could not presume to be the be-all-end-all for her child. I paraphrase here, but it really reinforced my own perception of parenting and the need for an extended family in the raising of a child. I don't post this to defend my choice, but only to give another perspective to the issue.

Thanks for this post.

[delighted.mama]

I hear you Krista (and the others who it bothers)!

But, I also think that sometimes people choose the wrong words. Writing it down also gives it a different spin than if you heard it said to your face. Nonetheless, because this is a very AP society and very child-oriented, I tend to agree with you that it implies criticism. That somehow I am less than a good mom because I WOH. It just sounds a little sanctimonious to me when I hear (or read) things like that.

I do think, however, that sometimes WOHM can get a little sensitive about it (at least that has been my experience) because of the guilt-factor. Well, maybe not everyone, but I am making a very general statemnt here. Because of the guilt associated with being away from your baby (whether out of choice or necessity) it tends to color the way we take other people's comments. :confused: That's what I try to tell myself when I hear/read things like that. Am I reacting to the statement, or am I reacting to my own feelings? Anyway, that is my 2 cents! :rolleyes:


Libby
-mama to a little bobka and *hopefully* soon-to-be a part-time WOH:banana :throb

[hulamama]

Originally posted by owen&mama
Just had to chime in to say...AMEN.

I agree that much of what is "said" is just a poor choice of words, and it's especially difficult to derive context from the written word. But, I have read certain comments, like those mentioned, and I have to agree that there is often obvious slamming going on (from both sides).

I am comfortable in my choices for my family, and I wish for everyone else that they would be comfortable enough not to feel the need to make hurtful (passive-aggressive or not) comments. Does my being comfortable mean that the guilt isn't there? Of course not. As someone said, that's part of being a mother. And that guilt is what allows me to be hurt by the comments. I've gotten better at ignoring them though. I'm hard enough on myself, to be quite honest! :)

With respect to those specific types of comments, some wise one of us posted a few weeks back on another thread that she embraced day care for her child as a way to experience another caregiver's influence, that she could not presume to be the be-all-end-all for her child. I paraphrase here, but it really reinforced my own perception of parenting and the need for an extended family in the raising of a child. I don't post this to defend my choice, but only to give another perspective to the issue.

Thanks for this post.

AAAAAAAmen.....I do think that sometimes am just being sensitive, and many other times I am definitely picking up on a statement that is meant to imply they are better than others.

I don't have the time to be as eloquent as I would like to be in my response...but please know that you are not alone. I fell this way so many times, which makes it quite hard to feel at home in online parenting communities as they are often filled with SAHMs who say many hurtful things. (One of the reasons I love this board so much--I feel like you all know the "troubles I've seen. " :) )

[sohj]

I also don't like those phrases and I don't think one is "too sensitive" if one is bothered by them. I dislike seeing someone trying to make me (or anyone else) feel guilty or small or trying to make themselves bigger. I don't feel guilty or small, but what bothers me about these statements is that I think it means that the person who is saying it hasn't really thought it through and that they, however unconsciously, feel insecure and need to bolster their sagging esteem by cutting into someone else. As someone who had a very difficult (and, I realized late into adulthood, abusive) relationship with my mother because she had woefully low self-esteem, the little watchperson in my head sends off a tornado siren and I then feel I have to watch myself around people like that because they look for injuries. I think I am very protective and kind, but I can, like any other human on the face of the earth, make stupid blunders:foot and have found that the more aggressively insecure a person is, the harder it is to apologize to them .

This is getting really scrambled. :confused: Lemme see if I can make it make more sense.:scratch

Maybe an example: A woman at my office said, when I was telling some people how thrilled I was with the nanny we have and how much Sam adores her, "Oh, how terrible, now he won't love you as much." I was rather shocked by such a statement and replied "As far as I know, there is no limit to the love in the world, and I know my son can love more than one person." I felt really sad for that woman. What a sad idea to hold.

Does that make it any clearer? Probably not. Well, I obviously should get home and rest!!!:duh

:wave

[kama'aina mama]

These are some really great points. While it is probably true that most of the time comments like that are made it is not meant to insult anyone if it does hurt someone attention must be paid to that. People need to know if they are saying inappropriate things and I believe you owe it friends to let them know. I want to thank you Krista for bringing this up in such a calm and gentle way.

[singermom]

For me, a lot of how I react to something someone says depends on the day. If I am feeling emotionally healthy enough, I can usually see where people are coming from with their comments, as insensitive as they might be. But give me a day when I've not gotten enough sleep, or there's too much going on, or you name it, and I will lose it if someone looks sideways at me!

I do have to say, though, that I fall into the camp of "yes, those comments bother me." We're all on the same team, after all--just trying to do what is right for our families. And no, that is not going to be the same for everyone, but it doesn't give anyone else the right to judge.

Keep up the good work, mamas (all of it!).

Mia

[Lucky Charm]

feel insecure and need to bolster their sagging esteem by cutting into someone else.
So very true....and sad. I feel bad for them.

[LiamnEmma]

Yes and No. It all depends on the messenger, the tone and the implied message...so I agree with you and see exactly what you mean and it's one of the reasons I primarily check in on this board particularly, although I mostly hit the *view new posts* button. On the other hand, when I went back to work after ds was born, I did feel as if someone else was raising my son. I think that had to do with hormones, lack of sleep, insecurity about being a first time mom, any other number of things, but it killed me to work 5 days/wk, 197 days/yr (and boy am I lucky I don't work summers or Christmas time, or Easter, or whatever other day I get off) away from him. So after that year I cut out a day and took a pay cut, and it was the best decision I could have made for us. Now I work 158 days/yr, meaning I'm not working more often than I am working, and I feel more balanced. But I agree with you. You are still raising Mallory. Nobody else. You are the one she calls out to at night, in sorrow, in joy, in excitement, anticipation, and that means that you are her primary caregiver.

The mommy wars are ugly. Just recently I was subjected to some of what I felt were pre-emptive strikes against me by a (very insecure, imo) SAHM during my monthly book club meeting. I got the feeling she was dissatisfied with her life in general (not that I believe all SAHM's feel this way, on the contrary, and for the record, I would indeed prefer to SAH with my kids) and thus wanted me to feel crappy about mine too. It was her first visit to the meeting, but she and two other women (also new) were so nasty in general and in particular to me, that I didn't go back the following month, and I don't think I'll go back next month either. I'm completely uninterested in going back to that high school scene and subjecting myself to people who want me to feel like sh&t so that they can feel better about themselves, kwim? It's sad, because I was LOVING the book club, I'd joined about 6 months earlier, but I'm worth more than their meanness.

Hang in there. We know you're raising your child.

[buttercup]

It is their viewpoint, not yours. Why worry about what someone else thinks. Every mother does what she thinks is best to raise her baby. If that means she has to work to provide clothes, food and shelter for her baby, then so be it. You should be proud of the fact that you are doing what you are doing because not all women can do it.

And if you encounter some of these narrow minded mothers who treat you terribly because you are a working mama, just brush it off and don't discuss it w/ them. Personally (hopefully I won't get attacked), I think any mother (whether SAHM or working mama) who criticizes another mother about her parenting choices is insecure about their parenting choices/ skills.

Jenni

[CosmicMama]

THanks everyone for some excellent points. I fall into the camp where the comments bother me a little but I don't need much help in feeling guilty because it is something I have enough of anyway.

Just wanted to add to sohj what a horrible comment by that coworker. I would feel sorry for that woman too- what a nasty, sad person! You gave a great reply though.

[kwl718]

I'll admit that those types of comments do bother me...there is no way around the implied criticism, intended or not.

I suspect that many SAHMs feel that they have to justify their choice as much as WOHMs do. There is the stereotype of bonbons and soap operas to contend with! Unfortunately some of the canned justifications involve implied comparisons like this.

[shelbean91]

I was WOHM after my dd and SAHM after my ds. When I was WOHM, I was so incredibly jealous of those who were able to stay home. I didn't feel like I wasn't raising my dd, and she was with a wonderful caregiver (my MIL), but I still wanted to be home. We weren't paying MIL for the daycare, so couldn't justify losing my income. After ds was born, we would have had to put them both in daycare and that would have eaten up most of my check. Now, we could make that justification.

I know that not everyone is able to make the choice to be a SAHM, and not everyone wants to. Some women have a great career that they love, and that is wonderful. My job was just a job. I enjoyed my coworkers and still see them occasionally, but it was just a job. I didn't love it, I didn't spend years of schooling to know how to do it, it was a way to pay the bills.

Staying home is much harder for me than it was going out to work. I'm always ON, never get a break, but overall, I consider myself very fortunate to be able to stay home. I would never say to someone 'oh, you're so unlucky that you have to work' , but I would say 'I'm very fortunate I'm able to stay home'. Not because I feel better or superior than the working mom, but that's truly the way I feel. If you need or want to work, that's wonderful and you are taking care of your family in the best way possible.

I never felt like a bad mom when I was WOHM and I would hope and wish that none of the mommas who are currently WOHM would be made to feel bad about their choices or situations.

You're doing a great job as a mom and raising your children and doing what is best for them. Good job and try to not let the comments get to you.

[CollegeMama]

Originally posted by asherah
Yes, maybe it is sometimes a matter of choosing the wrong words.. but other times I think the "mommy wars" are rearing their ugly ugly heads.

I think all women are hurt when we point fingers at each other like that. We all lose. We should be working together to give women a range of good choices and support, not taking shots at each other.

Unfortunately some women on both sides are so self-righteous and/or insecure, they persist in undermining their sisters. And yes, it bothers me.

Amen sister. Imagine how powerful a force women could be if we only joined together instead of picking each other apart!

[jessc79]

I am pretty new around here, and I just found the Working Mamas thread (which is awesome by the way). I am expecting my first son on 6/11/03. I am very offended by statements like this because :

I feel bad that I have to leave my son. I know its not best.
:(

The thing is, so many women I talk to say things like this to me "maybe if you just rearranged your budget or if you made some sacrifices you could make it work" or "if you factor in the cost of day care, lunches out, and clothing, you will find that its cheaper to SAH" That stuff hurts me. Like I am too stupid to figure that out on my own. Like I just choose to work so I can afford stuff for myself. Please. :rolleyes: Its going to be a huge thing for me to leave my son. I don't need other people making comments that only make me feel worse. I know other people can't make me feel bad, only I can, but when I already feel bad I don't want SAHMs to make me feel worse.

And the problem is is that I am NOT very secure in my decision. I AM jealous of SAHMs. I keep trying to convince myself that this will be ok, but its so hard. :(

[Liz]

I notice when they say those things but I really try not to let it get to me. Just like I try not to let it get to me when Moms crow about cloth diapering, slinging and extended breastfeeding - all things I did not do for my own reasons. I don't think they are trying to be nasty they are just proud of their accomplishments. I am proud that I make money doing something I love and I am proud of my fabulous son - my greatest accomplishment.

[hulamama]

jessc79..... :( I am so sorry you are heading into this with guilt.....it all starts so soon. I hope the transition is as smooth as possible. I hate those "if you only knew how to budget" comments too. Like we are all idiots. My dh's (and mine for that matter) benefits don't even cover our medical plans 100%......and that is just the tip of the financial iceberg. I find that people who make those comments 1) have a spouse with a great paying job--who makes great money or 2) they are getting a lot of help from family.

[shelbean91]

jessc79- Please don't feel guilty about your decision. You're doing what you need to for your family. That's it. Sometimes the numbers or situations just don't work out that make staying home possible. For those who tell you that it COULD work if you just wanted it to, tell them to butt out. They don't know your financial situation at all.

We all do what we have to, and if someone is putting you down for your decision, it's just because they need to put others down to make themselves feel better.

I feel bad for the moms who aren't able to do what they want to most, whether it is working or staying at home. Meaning if you want to stay home and can't, I really feel for you. If you want to work and need to stay home, I also feel for you.

[somemama]

Yes, those comments sometimes bother me. My sister, who is childless, told me, (when I was pregnant): "I'd rather not have any children at all than have children in daycare." (And that, in fact, is what she has chosen.)

But I shot back with, "I'd rather have children in daycare than no children at all!"

[tabitha]

Originally posted by hulamama
...I hate those "if you only knew how to budget" comments too. Like we are all idiots. My dh's (and mine for that matter) benefits don't even cover our medical plans 100%......and that is just the tip of the financial iceberg. I find that people who make those comments 1) have a spouse with a great paying job--who makes great money or 2) they are getting a lot of help from family.

i guess i'm one of those people who make those comments- not so much "budgeting", as i haven't a clue what that is (!), but the general LLL / at home instead attitude that it costs more to WOHM than to SAHM sometimes, of course not always. it's funny, though, my dp doesn't make a lot of money, and we get very little 'help', from anyone other than the government, which pays for my baby's health insurance while dp and i do without health insurance. WIC 'helped' us a little, too. but that sort of 'help' is available to anyone who fits in the financial; bracket many would call "poor".

i mean that i have spoken to mammas who are making decisions about whether to sah or work, and mentioned all the reasons why i chose to sah. i sah despite our 25,000 dollar tax debt, despite our living paycheck to paycheck, and it isn't a holier than thou attitude i have when i suggest mammas sah, it's just an opinion based on my personal experience.

i hope that i was never seen as "nasty" by mammas when i talked about my reasons for sah. i guess i just don't think the worst of people when i am speaking to them- i assume they aren't trying to judge me, ykwim? i figure, if the person i'm talking to was mean-spirited, she probably wouldn't be talking to me in the first place- expressing opinion implies you care to begin with.

tabitha

[Starling]

Yes, it does bother me! Not so much on the boards, but in real life.

I have a friend who is a SAHM and whose husband makes a lot of money at a job for a corporation with no redeeming social value.

My husband makes a teeny-tiny salary at an organization that helps kids with disabilities.

So, I had to go back to work when DS was 12 weeks old so that we would have money to live on. (DH was part time at his teeny-tiny salary job at the time.)

My SAHM friend with the wealthy husband gave me :firedevil for it. She just couldn't get it into her head that I had to go to work cos my husband didn't make a gazillion dollars selling widgets to yuppies!

That was almost two years ago, and I'm still smarting.

So, yeah, it bothers me.

[Indigomama]

It bothers me big time. I hate the whole WOHM vs. SAHM conflict.

I was a SAHM for the first year, and couldn't believe some of the negative things I heard from certain friends.

When I went back to work, I couldn't believe some of the negative things I heard from other friends.


I politely told them all where to go! :angry

I think a lot of women, regardless of which decision they make, frequently question their decision. Thinking that their way has to be the "right" way or "best" way is a way to avoid the realities of the imperfect decisions we are forced to make.

But that's why I like the mothering boards...so many (not all) of these discussions happen in such a positive productive manner!
:D

[carmen veranda]

Thanks for this thread...

I have been a SAH mom and now a WOH mom. I am now a single mom of three, gotta work. I have a great job, and take care of eveyone and everything myself.
I have been stuggling with how to put this without sounding like I am attacking. When one is one public assistence, do you know where the money comes from to pay your child's health insurance? Do you know who would pay your hospital bill, if something happened to you or you dh, and you had no health insurance?
I don't want to attack. Really. But I do think it is unfair when people use government programs or make their communites responsible for paying for things they could pay for themselves. I have some friends who are both womyn and are married. I mean to each other. They have no problem accepting any amount of government assistence, even though they both have masters degrees, and are very employable, because the state does not recognize their union. They get to SAH with their dd, in part, because many of us work to help support them. Their daughter was in the hospital and that whole bill was a write off. We have gone 'round and 'round about this.
I think it is unfair for some of us to have to pay for others who just plain choose not to pay for themselves.

edited by writer per request of moderator who, thankfully, has pointed out that what I wrote may have seemed like a personal attack, although it was not meant as one. Thank you.

[Very Snoofly]

I hate those "if you only knew how to budget" comments too.

I often wanted to hurl "Mothering Your Nursing Toddler" across the room for this very reason, although in all other respects it's a great book. Interspersed throughout her advice on nursing were little comments about how material goods aren't that important, that shopping at thrift shops will help with the budget so that moms can stay at home where they belong--okay, I'm probably exaggerating a little, but that seemed to be the gist. Trust me, merely buying second-hand clothes wouldn't even begin to solve our problems. I work to pay off student loans and credit card debt (now cut up--the debt was accumulated before the baby was born and we weren't thinking about the future), and to pay for health insurance for myself and my daughter, and to save towards retirement. Being able to occasionally buy my daughter a nice outfit or new shoes is an added bonus, but for the most part my money goes to bills, bills, and more bills.

I would love to write more, but I gotta get back to work!

[sohj]

I think what is really important for everyone to know (and I think everyone posting HERE already knows this, I'm preaching to the choir:) ) is that there are no hard and fast rules for all parents all the time.

One small thing that been brought up about the economics of sah vs. woh is the expenses issue. For many people, there are big differences in personal expenses for stuff like clothes in that situation. On the other hand, for me it is the opposite of what you would expect. My husband is an artist and designer and if I was a sah, I would get cornered into being a lot more of a handmaiden to his craft. I support him fully emotionally and all that; but, because I have the 'excuse' of my job, his business contacts don't expect me to show up at those busness networking/social occasions that happen. Many of these, I have found, require cocktail circuit clothes...that would cost waaaaaay more than what I spend right now. (I'd also have to get my legs waxed more frequently. :p :rolleyes: ) My equivalent occasions do not require nearly as fashionable and statusy clothes and I refrain from wearing anything too attention seeking anyhow since I am usually one of only a handful of women. (I also don't take my husband to them as invariably I would end up embarrasing some older guy who goes up to my husband to chat thinking he was the engineer only to find out it was me. I might have gotten a kick out of that when younger, but now I just feel sorry for the guy who made the mistake.)

Of course, if I was at home, we wouldn't have the expense of a nanny.

What I would really like to do is just have my pixie with me everywhere I go.:D He's fun to have around and he really likes meeting people. He is very social and is (fortunately) very charming. Why does work have to be divorced from family and life? A hundred years ago, it wasn't. Families ran/had a business and everyone was involved. Of course, we don't have children working in mills anymore, either.:rolleyes:

You win some and you lose some.

[singermom]

Originally posted by KristaCiel
Trust me, merely buying second-hand clothes wouldn't even begin to solve our problems...Being able to occasionally buy my daughter a nice outfit or new shoes is an added bonus, but for the most part my money goes to bills, bills, and more bills.


I hear ya, sister friend! My husband is in business for himself--some months billings are good, some months not so much. I work to provide a steady income so that we can be assured of paying our mortgage. My company also provides health insurance coverage for the family (which I don't get completely for free, but it beats the alternative). We live as frugally as we can, but we too are slaying the bill-monster (slowly but surely).

The original theme of this thread was about the comments that SAHMs may make, intentionally or otherwise, to WOHMs. I have heard it cut the other way as well, as when I heard a colleague of mine say that she works "because she has a brain and isn't afraid to use it." How cruel. Once again, I say, we are all on the same team.

Peaceful thoughts,

Mia

[hulamama]

Originally posted by KristaCiel
I often wanted to hurl "Mothering Your Nursing Toddler" across the room for this very reason, although in all other respects it's a great book. Interspersed throughout her advice on nursing were little comments about how material goods aren't that important, that shopping at thrift shops will help with the budget so that moms can stay at home where they belong--okay, I'm probably exaggerating a little, but that seemed to be the gist. Trust me, merely buying second-hand clothes wouldn't even begin to solve our problems. I work to pay off student loans and credit card debt (now cut up--the debt was accumulated before the baby was born and we weren't thinking about the future), and to pay for health insurance for myself and my daughter, and to save towards retirement. Being able to occasionally buy my daughter a nice outfit or new shoes is an added bonus, but for the most part my money goes to bills, bills, and more bills.

I would love to write more, but I gotta get back to work!
I hear your Krista..your situation sounds a lot like mine. Dh and I paid our way thru college---and have the college loans to boot. We have to pay out of our paychecks for our health coverage. We live in a very miserly small house because it is the only thing we can afford in our area. I am attacking those pre-baby credit card bills (and I am WINNING!!!!).....but, it is still my dream to work part time. Yes, part-time. Anything less would be impossible. DH and I lived on just his salary when I went back to school in 99 to get my teacher cert....as a 4th year teacher(DH) we had to live in a 400 sq. ft. studio, defer our college loans--all of them and live on $30 a week for groceries. Even though dh gets more money now.....after that year I realized how impossible staying home full time would be. We just can't do it.

And carmen....I know where you are coming from. It really bothers me that I work hard to be a responsible person while others file bankruptcy to get out of their credit card debt or live off govt services because they want to stay home with their little ones......I would love to stay with my little one, but I want to teach her to be responsible for her choices. It was my choice to pick the crappy paylife of a teacher--but I am being responsible by paying off my debt and taking care of my family. I just feel like somedays it doesn't pay to be responsible......

[Very Snoofly]

but, it is still my dream to work part time. Yes, part-time. Anything less would be impossible.

Me too! And I've already decided that I'm not having another baby until we can swing my working part-time. For one thing, we couldn't even begin to afford full-time daycare for two kids. (My mil watches Mallory three days a week now, but I strongly suspect she would balk at watching Mallory and a new baby!) I figure in three years, I'll have made huge dents in my most burdensome loans, and Mallory will be four and part-time preschool isn't hideously expensive...the only kink in this plan is that I'm already 31 and the clock is ticking (so they say)...

Another factor in my working is that I wouldn't feel right--at this point--making my husband shoulder the entire financial burden of our household. Why should he, for example, work to pay off MY student loan, which I chose to borrow before I even met him? (The other side of the coin is I refuse to use my paycheck to pay off his credit card, which he uses on ebay to buy a bunch of junk. :rolleyes:) I feel that loan is my responsibility, not his. Now, of course, were he to suddenly get an enormous raise which would allow him to single-handedly pay all the household bills PLUS our loans and still have money left over at the end of the month...that would be a different story. But I'm not going to quit my job and impoverish us when a large part of our financial burden is that student loan; I just wouldn't feel right about it.

What would help, of course, is if the US had a better maternity leave system...

[tabitha]

Originally posted by carmen veranda
Tabitha~ Do you know where the money comes from to pay your child's health insurance? Do you know who would pay your hospital bill, if something happened to you or you dh, and you had no health insurance?
I don't want to attack. Really. But I do think it is unfair when people use government programs or make their communites responsible for paying for things they could pay for themselves. ...I think it is unfair for some of us to have to pay for others who just plain choose not to pay for themselves.

I do have an understanding of where funding for my son's Medical comes from, as well as WIC (which we no longer qualify for now that tristan is born). Just so you know, Karl and I don't qualify for funding, so if something happened to us the money would come from .... us. Our baby will not qualify for funding forever, either. But we cannot afford to purchase health insurance. We could not even if i went back to my work, which was full time at a coffee shop making 9.50 an hour, just so you know that as well.

and to make sure you have a full understanding of our situation before you jump to any more conclusions, I am 22 years old, and was in a community college when i became pregnant- i got state BOG help for my fees if you need some more leverage- and have no marketable skills for the workforce, except a few years training for Peet's Coffee & Tea.

Karl is a solar technician making as much money as he can while supporting us, doing side web design jobs at night. We have large amounts of both federal and state tax debt (Karl's) from a time when he made a lot more money, before we were together. We pay monthly for our tax lawyer. soon they will be taking liens against Karl's wages. We pay for our car and insurance. We clean the halls and do odd maintenance in our small apt. building so that our rent is reduced a little. We live in a studio apartment. I sew and sell slings now to help make a little extra money.

this is not a pity story. i am very happy. i am in fact the happiest person i know- we are the happiest family i know. we have goals and plans and dreams, of course, and know that things will not always be this way.

I use Medi-cal for our son's well baby checkups. despite your disclaimer, carmen veranda, i am disgusted that you would put into writing what i quoted above.

I can sense your pride that you have overcome your situation and are now fully supporting yourself and your children. I imagine you should be proud- it is a huge accomplishment. But neither your situation or your 2 women friends' has anything to do with mine.
tabitha, quite sorry for being off topic.

edited as requested

[Lucky Charm]

Tabitha,
I can see what you are trying to say, really. but what smarts me, isnt your own personal situation per se, but because i do have more earning potential (approx triple your hourly wage), i do not qualify for "help" with medical insurance, be it only for my kids. what i am getting at, is....i feel you are passing judgement on my working for health benefits, dental etc, plus paying bills...all of which my paychecks go to....while you sah wondering what the heck i'm doing and why, ykwim? is it so wrong to want to live in something bigger than a studio apt? and why do you care?

[hulamama]

Originally posted by KristaCiel

Another factor in my working is that I wouldn't feel right--at this point--making my husband shoulder the entire financial burden of our household. Why should he, for example, work to pay off MY student loan, which I chose to borrow before I even met him? (The other side of the coin is I refuse to use my paycheck to pay off his credit card, which he uses on ebay to buy a bunch of junk. :rolleyes:) I feel that loan is my responsibility, not his. Now, of course, were he to suddenly get an enormous raise which would allow him to single-handedly pay all the household bills PLUS our loans and still have money left over at the end of the month...that would be a different story. But I'm not going to quit my job and impoverish us when a large part of our financial burden is that student loan; I just wouldn't feel right about it.

What would help, of course, is if the US had a better maternity leave system...

YES! I totally know what you mean! Somedays when I am having a pity party I lament on "why dh couldn't have used his smarts as a lawyer.......then I could stay home and be with dd 24/7." But you know--I have an enormous sense of guilt about that. I know how much dh loves being a teacher and I would never want him to get a job that he hates simply so I can stay home....we are a partnership. I also love that he is home much more than if he had a different job. I know some people whose working spouses never see their kids because they are working long hours or 2-3 jobs. I would hate that. I love having him home and enjoying dd. I know that works for others and that is great for them, but in my relationship, I would feel awful. I even feel guilty about pursuing the part time dream...I really think dh would love to cut to half time to stay with dd....and maybe after I get my year or so to do that, we can switch off and do that.

[jessc79]

is it so wrong to want to live in something bigger than a studio apt ITA with this. I mean, really we all COULD be SAHMs. Most of us could sell everything and live in near poverty and file for bankruptcy, accept public aid, whatever. But the fact of the matter is that some of us want MORE than that. I find that a lot of SAHMs do so because their income wouldn't even cover daycare anyway, so it makes financial sense for them to SAH. I just hate being judged, like if I would just make the sacrifice I would be a better mother. :(

[sohj]

:topic :sunshine :soapbox :bf :duh


Just had to get the emoticon feeling out!

Hey all, I'm going to 'confess' something. I could never be a SAHM. I COULD be a mother-with-baby-always-in-tow, but I gotta say...and I will say it to my pixie when he asks me or when I think he would be interested in knowing...when I have been just at home with him, as much as I love him and as handsome as he is, I go cookoo after too many hours. I have great fun playing with him, but I am really looking forward to him talking and having conversations and learning stuff. For me, I think this will happen best when he is a little more independent and will have a 'life' (however circumscribed it may be for a long time) of his own and comes back to talk to me about it...and vice versa. I cannot spend all my time with him. And in my case I don't think it would be good to do so. Obviously, this is only about me and my family and the little one who came out of me. I have NO clue what is right for anyone else:p :D :love But, when people get me in the "you could stay at home if you wanted to ...":blah :blah :blah , I am totally honest and say I don't want to. It also, as a matter of fact, probably wouldn't save us money (see useless post somewhere above).

But, in my perfect world, I would like to replicate my father's upbringing. He and his parents lived at his grandmother's. She ran a saloon that became a grocery store with a speakeasy :eek when prohibition took hold. She also (quoting my father) "baked two pies, a cake, two loaves of bread every day, cleaned the dentist's office, cleaned at the lutheran church, somehow knew everything we were doing and bawled out her daughter" My father lived in a neighborhood of Detroit where everyone he was related to was within half a mile except for the family who farmed and lived north of Flint. (And those who never came down from Canada and still were in Byng Inlet or St. Agathe or Trois Rivieres.) My father is a pretty happy person and one of the more sensible people I know. He had the benefit of that all important "VILLAGE". I on the other hand was vacuum packed in with my mother for much of my upbringing. No other family members to run interference or to provide a balance except for my father. Did have vacations with relatives, but that is not the same as day to day for me.

Everyone in my family worked. Sometimes the kids work with them (like on the farms). I can't imagine not working. When I take too long a vacation I get another job or I start a business. My father still works and he's 77!


Does this make sense? Probably not. Maybe someone here is smart enough to figure out what I meant. :confused: I'm tired. Goodnight.:love

[Alstrameria]

I would love a village! I don't even know where I fit. I work afternoons, dh works days. My parents come for a couple of hours in between.

So I'm home with dd all day, but I WOH full time. Most of my friends WOH, but I never see anybody because I work opposite hours.

Where's my home? I'm with sohj, I like having a job. I also like looking at minivans, home additions and college educations in the bank.

Jen

[Very Snoofly]

He had the benefit of that all important "VILLAGE".

Oh yeah! I've been typing up and compiling my great-grandmothers diaires. She raised 6 kids in West Texas during the Depression/Dust Bowl years. In addition to the kids, she milked cows, took care of chickens, cooked everything from scratch, raised a garden and took produce to market, helped Granddad in the fields, and so on and so forth. With six kids! I have one kid and I'm lucky if I can vacuum the floor once a week! But she almost always had someone there to help out--her sister, an aunt, the neighbor kids down the road. She of course returned the favor for other mothers around. But it was never "finding a babysitter" or "hiring a nanny"--it was just the way things were. They were hard-working people and helping out with the kids was a given.

My mom stayed at home with me and my older sister, and I remember a lot of long dreary days when she would be sewing or working around the house and I would be expected to entertain myself. I would've preferred being out on a farm with a bunch of other kids!

[owen&mama]

Oh yeah, I hope that there are more than a couple of us out there in the WOHM crowd that actually want a life outside of our motherhood cocoon. Of course, it's all a choice and for my family, it's as much about choosing a life for our Selves as it is about a life for our DS. Family is about the family is it not? For me, being a mother is just one of the things I love, it doesn't define me as a person in and of itself - although it certainly shapes me. Being happy and whole as an individual makes me a better mother in my opinion. That being said, there are days that I want nothing better than to hang with my DS. There are other days that I want anything but....:rolleyes: In the end, it's all about balance, for me, for DH, and for DS.

There is that element of guilt that never goes away for me, but I also feel that it is culturally and socially instilled in us (also another opinion), especially us women/mothers. Somehow, our society has lost the value of community and extended family - otherwise there would be more value placed on quality childcare and non-traditional family AND on the Village that is mentioned so often on these boards. The SAHM/WOHM/Acronym-of-the-day terms seem to be very late 20th-century to me - and very exclusive to our culture. Embracing my son into my work life and allowing him the benefit of an extended family are goals for me, whereas not long ago (and in much of the world still) that was all just a way of life.

Okay, I don't suppose I've been very articulate, and I'm quite certain I've left thoughts here half-baked, but these are interesting points everyone is making. Just wanted to divert my attention to it for a moment....now back to my regularly scheduled work......:)

[carmen veranda]

Can I try again~

I had a miscarriage once way back when. It wasn't a do it yourself deal at home. I was in the hospital for two days with infection and a d&c and hemorrage and antibiotics and the works. As I was laboring to birth my already dead fetus a wonderful warm elderly Nurses Assisstant sat with me and was WITH me. Her presense was a life raft. Next day when all was said and done and I was getting ready to go home, she came into my room and asked to talk. She asked me how I was going to pay my bill, as I had mentioned I had no insurance. I told her I supposed I would pay it off little by little. She asked if I knew how much money I had just spent? I of, course did not. It was thousands, she didn't really know either, just a rough guess. She said very gently that perhaps one of the reasons she got paid such a crappy wage for such noble work, was that people did not care enough about themselves and their communities to make sure their butts were covered. I thought about her for a long time. She was probably close to retirement age, had told me she had birthed 5 babies and woh the whole time because her husband had some sort of chronic disease his whole life and could not work much.
I did pay like 10.00$$ a month for freakin' ever on my almost 5000!!!!! $ bill. After a couple of years the hospital wrote me and told me they were discharging it to "bad debt" and that was that. I now work in a hospital. I take care of people who carry no insurance all the time. Many of their bills are complete write offs. Weeks in intensive care. Written off. The hospital can put liens on property, or garnish wages, but not many folks who can't pay for health insurance can't pay off thousands of dollars in medical bills ever. No matter how good their intentions. I couldn't.
A good friend of mine's husband died leaving her with 4 little kids. She had been a SAH mom her whole life. Had no work experience except of course the hard wonderful amazing mothering which many employers scoff at. They were healthy and strong and could not afford life insurance. It took all their savings to funeral and bury him. They were destitute. A little life insurance on her husband would have been the kindest gift they could have given their kids.
All I mean to say by all this blather, is that it does take a villiage!! Part of being that villiage is not making others carry your burdens when you have two strong arms and ways of doing it yourself. Ask for help when you need it, take help when you must, help others all you can, and carry your own weight. When you shake your heads about someone whose kids are in day care all day while they work, ask yourself if your butt is covered before you ask them why they don't buy second hand shoes.

I hope this post sounds kinder than my last. I never meant to hurt, or disgust anyone. Please accept my apology for not saying it as gently as someone once said it to me.

[owen&mama]

:hug to carmen veranda
:hug to tabitha
:hug to all of us for being the best moms we can be.

:grouphug

[Jish]

She said very gently that perhaps one of the reasons she got paid such a crappy wage for such noble work, was that people did not care enough about themselves and their communities to make sure their butts were covered.

I think I'm missing something. I'm not quite sure what the Nurses aide meant. Was she infering that you needed to cover your butt? If so, what did she mean. My first thougth was that her comment was sort of rude, but you didn't seem upset by it. I think I'm missing something here. Sorry for being an idiot, but can you explain what she meant.:nut It just came off to me as rude to say to someone who had been through what you did, that's why I'm sure I must be reading it the wrong way.

[carmen veranda]

What she meant and what I am struggling to say is that because I, and hundreds of other like me, did not carry health insurance, then our whole community suffered. Medical care costs have to be higher to cover those who can't or don't pay. Wages are lower for hospital workers for the same reasons. If my bill and hundreds of others were not written off every year, perhaps her health insurance costs would be lower and perhaps her wages would be higher. Just like car insurance. Those of us who carry it, pay for those who don't.
She had earned my complete trust be being with me through one of the worst experiences of my life, or maybe it would have seemed rude to me, too. How she meant it, at least how I took it, was more like she knew I had been kinda living for the moment and she cared enough about me to try to gently open me eyes to the fact that we are all connected. My not having health insurance to help me pay for this crisis was, in some sense, taking money out of her pocket. And the pockets of my neighbors.
We are all connected. What I do, and how I live affects you and my neighbors and my family and your families and the earth and the universe.
I am sorry I am so tongue-tied in my explanation. We can just drop it if you want....I have already gone over the line.

[Marlena]

:OT
Of course, if we had universal health insurance in this country, it wouldn't be an issue.

More to the topic, if most people (and the government) understood that both mothering and working are essential components of a healthy society and thus decided to support both adequately through public means, then perhaps we wouldn't need to have this conversation. The 'mommy wars' wouldn't have any raison d'etre, in that case.

We certainly won't see any progress made in this direction under the present administration, unfortunately. Bush and co. appear to believe that U.S.A., Inc., can be run like a business, where you cut out all the "fat" and squeeze as much as possible out of your workers, just to the verge of bringing them to ruin, in order better to line the pockets of the owners. "Compassionate conservatism," my a$$. :rolleyes:

[Benjismom]

I feel compelled to respond even though I have only been lurking on this thread. The reasons nurse's aides are paid so little are myriad, including the fact that nurturing work has always been seen as female and thus has been less highly compensated and the lack of unionization of health care workers in many parts of the country.

I don't know if carmen was at a for-profit hospital, but if she was she should take a look at the compensation paid to executives of companies like HCA and Tenet Healthcare, the two largest for-profit hospital chains. Then look at the compensation paid to the CEO of Healthsouth, the nation's largest outpatient surgical and rehabilitation company; he's now about to land in the poky for fraud. All of these guys make tens of millions of dollars per year, sometimes more. Some of that could certainly be used to increase salaries for health care workers. It's a question of priorities.

With respect to not-for-profit facilities, many of which are making large inroads into the for-profit world themselves with high-margin businesses, I agree that uncompensated care is a huge problem. But what good does it do to tell people to go out and get themselves health insurance? Our country is the only advanced economy where health insurance is left to individual employers to provide. If someone can't get insurance through an employer or a spouse's employer, it is incredibly difficult to afford as an individual. For many people the choice would be between insurance and food or utilities or housing.

I think that nurse's aide was barking up the wrong tree--maybe it was just the tree that was nearby and the barking made her feel better.

Getting off my soapbox now.

Beth, Mom to Benji (3/23/00) and Maggie (1/24/03)

[asherah]

Well I agree that the healthcare system in our culture is all !@%*ed up.

But while we try to fix it, I am personally going to make sure I have the best insurance I can get.
And that is one of the main reasons I work.
The idea of my ds being without it scares me to death.
I know some people have no choice.. but I do.. and I choose to keep us covered, since my DH can't right now.

I also want DS to have a college fund. And I want DH and I to be able to put away a little bit for the future.

And I want my DS to ride in a safe, reliable car.

I realize that some women think that being home is more important than these things, and you won't hear me undermining their choice.

Others have partners that can provide them and that's wonderful.

But I have made a considered decision to work for these things for my family.

And I think the point here is that WOHM shouldn't have to put up with being called selfish, materialistic mothers or accused of letting other people raise their children because we've decided this is what works best for us and our families.

[carmen veranda]

I couldn't agree more with the way medical care and treatment is provided in this country is unfair, unjust and unrealistic. However it is what it is. I will take lots of things on, but not this monster. So I woh for the benefits it provides my girls, and myself and I make sure that no one else is responsible for paying our way. It just seems fair for every one to pull their own weight if they can, and help those who can't.

[Jish]

I thought that was what she meant, I just couldn't believe that she told someone in your position that. It just didn't seem very supportive of you in such a delicate situation. It seemed almost cruel to me. I realize that there are so many people out there who work so hard and still can't affort health insurance, I hope she did too.:(

[Lucky Charm]

And I think the point here is that WOHM shouldn't have to put up with being called selfish, materialistic mothers or accused of letting other people raise their children because we've decided this is what works best for us and our families
Asherah....I agree 100% with your entire post, i just couldnt figure out how to post it all!!!

Being without benefits scares me to death. I believe they can put a lien on my home if, say i had a large bill and couldnt pay. but some sahm's think owning a home is equivilent to child abuse if it means i have to wohm to pay for it.....if only i lived in a i bedroom apt, or rented a house in a less desirable part of town, then i would be a good mother , worthy of the title, because, well, i sacrificed.

as far as that nurses aide in carmens post, what a mental midget. how dare she say that to a sick woman, who just went through an ordeal, that the reason she is so underpaid is because of people like her...is she for real? WTF! I am an ER nurse, and 60% of the patients who come are uninsured, but that doesnt affect my pay, what does is the greedy CEO's, now what pays for uninsured care is my taxes, and it is a burden to the community for all the uninsured. but never, ever, would i say that to a medicaid/uninsured/private pay patient. those folks already know who pays for it. they are not stupid, alot of them are quite smart, and know how to work the system...but thats a whole nother thread....that CNA was out of line, insensitive, rude and condescending. But as far as some of the sahm's who look down there nose at me because i am a homeowner, because i work for benefits, well to heck with them! i would much rather work my but off to help provide and contribute.

[Marlena]

Amen, sweetbaby3!

[Lucky Charm]

Thanks Marlena...:hug

[asherah]

Oh and by the way..
If I also feel like spending some of my very hard-earned money on a rockin' pair of shoes....

I AM ENTITLED!

I am tired of some of the judgements on women who get manicures.. go to the gym.. drink lattes, wear makeup, whatever! OOH they must be BAD MOMMIES because they're taking the time to do something indulgent for themselves.

Give me a break.

[owen&mama]

AMEN sister on the rockin' pair of shoes!

I just got a hot new cut & color at the salon yesterday - TWO hours at the salon, how dare she! -, and not only do I feel like a fabulous mommy today, I feel like a fabulous-looking mommy today!

[CosmicMama]

am tired of some of the judgements on women who get manicures.. go to the gym.. drink lattes, wear makeup, whatever! OOH they must be BAD MOMMIES because they're taking the time to do something indulgent for themselves.

Every Friday (like today) I treat myself to Starbucks (a chai tea latte and a lemon scone) for getting through another week. Thanks for helping with the guilt mama!! :D

Owen&Mama- you go girl, I bet you look hot! I'm going to treat myself to highlights one of these days- it's been forever!!

[Lucky Charm]

I just blew a wad on landsend...why? because i can!
I spent $100 plus at the Prescriptives counter...why? because i can!

I will join the local pool....an awesome place for the kids to swim, play basketball, you name it (we go everyday during the summer...i work as a nurse with flexible hours!)...why, because i can!

man, do they love it!!! and so do i!
My little boy goes to private school!! why, because i can!

go mamas!!
(i also do the cut color and higlight bit as well!)

lets have a virtual cup of strbuck together, shall we???
:grouphug

[glh]

This thread seems to be getting to the point where it is assumed that all sahm's are either upper middle class with dh's who make lots of money or people barely surviving and using every available gov't assistance. Not true, many of us are firmly middle class who own homes (but maybe not mcmansions with brand new furniture) and also like to buy nice things once in awhile. I do shop at sales or consignment shops for my kids because I have the time to do that and it does save money, we eat out a lot less now and take fewer vacations that are closer to home (last year no vacation) and save money other ways, but our lifesyle really hasn't changed a whole heck of a lot since I was a wohm. There are less expenses like gas, taxes, clothes for work and of course daycare. But, I would not give up EVERYTHING to stay home, it is important for me and my family to live in a decent house and an area with good schools, to have health insurance (we pay for our own-dh is self-employed as a construction worker) and to send my kids to college (one in now-he has big scholarship and financial aid, loans and does work-study, I hope that is not considered sponging off the gov't).

So what I'm trying to say is I don't judge you, I've been in your shoes and most likely will be again, so please don't judge all of us either.

[owen&mama]

Oh, glh, I'm sorry if you took any offense. I can only speak for myself, but I'm pretty sure that most everyone else would agree that we weren't making any assumption about anyone with these last few posts. I think that we were all just celebrating the fact that we didn't have to feel any guilt about making choices for ourselves as much as for our family. We were just letting ourselves know that it's okay to not sacrifice all the time, whether you're a WOHM, a SAHM, or whatever. I actually thought we were getting even further away from the judgment and embracing our support of one another.

It's clear that every situation is different. I mean, really, highlights would never work for me...it's got to be full color coverage or nothing! :)

[asherah]

Well, sometimes I feel like people think its ok for me to work as long as I am not "materialistic"... like as long as I don't spend any of the money on anything but my child and our basic needs.. its ok.

Some people.. not just SAHMS of course.. are very quick to judge others as "materialistic".. and talk about how virtuous they are in comparison.

Now, I am very aware of my own privilege. I am very lucky to have an education, job skills and advantages that others don't have. I am lucky not to have to overcome the barriers others have to fight so hard to overcome.

I am also very respectful of those who do make incredible sacrifices to SAHM..

BUT sometimes I do get very sick and tired of the judgements.. like there is something so awful about wanting nice things.

Now, if they are your only joy/motivation in life.. or if you pursue them mindlessly just for the sake of having them.. or if you put them ahead of people.. well you may have some things to work on.

But enjoying a binge at the mall every now and then doesn't make someone a mindless, materialistic Stepford wife who's putting things ahead of her child... and working for "the wrong reasons."

And yes, I do feel people can be really harsh if a WOHM dares to enjoy her job.. and the proceeds of it.. and isn't constantly guilt-stricken.

I DO feel guilt. I DO sometimes wonder if I'm making the right choices. I DO struggle with balancing everything and trying to keep my priorities straight.

I also like to buy nice things sometimes with my very hard-earned money.

And I also feel proud I can support my family... while acknowleging I am privileged to be able to do so.


That isn't a slam at SAHMS or anyone else. I admire and support SAHMS and I want to see them get health benefits and retirement and everything else they deserve.

Its just that I'm doing the best I can, too.

[glh]

No apologies necessary, maybe this is just a mom problem, that we all feel like no matter what our situation that we have to put ourselves last. I've done that when I was a sahm and a wohm. I've seen it expressed on other threads that that is what we should do no matter what. I don't agee with that either, but it is hard as mothers to know when to give ourselves a break. I've said it before in other threads but here goes; the mommy wars are getting so old. Every family is different and I don't believe there is one right way to raise children. I also have to agree with the original point of this thread; when I was a wohm it killed me to hear that phrase about "raising them myself". I knew how much I loved, thought about and cared for my kids and working or not that didn't change.

I've known as many materialistic sahms as I have materialistic wohms, but I don't think doing something for yourself or buying nice things for your kids is wrong. It only bugs me when people hold it against you if you don't have as much "stuff" as they do.

[sohj]

It really pisses me off when the easily amused BIG MEDIA CONGLOMERATES put a lazy reporter on a "lifestyle" (Oh? And who's YOUR lifestylist?) article on this really, really stupid SAHM vs. WOHM debate. In fact, there's no debate to me. Do you have a child? Are you female? Yes to both and, hey, you are a mother. Do you work from can see to can't for a) no money or b) a few hours for money, the rest for no money. If it is yes to 'a', then you are a SAHM, if 'b' then you are a WOHM. If you do no work whatsoever, then you are dead...or Ivana Trump or Kathie Lee Gifford.

The problem comes when people who are just downright nasty and nosy and insecure look for some new way to be insulting and to tell someone else how to live their lives. Then, they'll use anything.

And lazy so-called reporters (who bear absolutely NO resemblance to Nelly Bly or Jesse Tarbox Beals or Edgar R. Murrow or even Hunter S. Thompson) are the worst perpetrators of this S**T that is meant to keep us AFRAID. Afraid that we aren't doing enough, that we're doing too much, that we are failing for success, that we're succeeding in the wrong way, that we think we're ahead and that in fact our children will grow up to be son of sam if we stay at home all the time, or if we don't. Or if we are vegan, or vegetarian, or omnivorous, or whatever.

They change their topics with the deadlines and expect everyone to just ignore the fact that contradictions have been made left, right, and center.

And the "we" I used above is for everyone, mothers, fathers, whatever. And no distinction is made for working or not working.

[asherah]

um.. well.. considering I'm a journalist for a large television network...

I guess this is all my fault.
Here's where I leave the discussion.

[sohj]

asherah, don't leave.:)

Please note that I didn't use the word "journalist" in the above rant/post. I used "reporter" and the adjective "lazy". The two words are not permanently together, just then for my point...like when I complain about engineers who do poor designs that cannot be constructed safely I refer to them as "incompetent engineers". :rolleyes:

[Lucky Charm]

asherah...please come back! dont let one voice do this!!

i'm a news junkie

[EFmom]

I hate those comments, too. They are bad from strangers and worse from family. My sister nearly always manages to get in little digs about her moral superiority for being a SAHM every time we speak. So, I really never call her anymore.

Frankly, I think the speakers mean for the comments to hurt. Since I'm not playing that game, I ignore them.

[Alstrameria]

:OT

Well, it's wacky up here too. Maybe we have OHIP but we have a lot of fraud. We also pay a lot of tax to support our social programs. Which I don't mind, mostly. The thing that gets me is that I get $25 a month in CTB for one child. A friend of mine gets $650 for two children. Why? She sahms and her dh doesn't make, well, much I guess.

How is this fair? Or maybe not fair since that sounds like whining, but how is this my compensation for making good money and paying lots of it in taxes to support the community? How is it supposed to even out? How is that I'm *not* supposed to be resentful? I find it difficult to feel like a peer with most sahms because of this, so maybe the "system" is my issue...

Really, if all they can afford for me is $25 I'm putting in too much, that is a crappy return on my investment.

Jen

Edited to say I'm in Ontario Canada.

[Hannah's Mom]

Frankly, I think the speakers mean for the comments to hurt. Since I'm not playing that game, I ignore them.

EFmom - I agree with you. I also think the speakers mean for the comments to hurt.

I also relate to the women who posted that, no matter how they budgeted, they wouldn't be able to stay home. I have a lot of student loan debt that must be paid. Furthermore, I enjoy owning our own (teeny) home and a few luxuries. Right now, my husband stays home with dd and works on the weekend (all weekend) while I'm home. We get very little time together and this is not a permanent solution. DH will be returning to work FT after dd is one or so. I don't think this makes me us bad parents (or more realistically, me a bad mom, since THE MOM is always the subject of these comments).

[Alstrameria]

Hannah's Mom that's an interesting point. Sometimes dh says "I'd like to stay home with her all day!" when we're talking about part-time or sahm for me, but I find I'm taken by surprise!

I hope I didn't sound to bitter above. I'm really not. There's a lot more to WOH than money!!

Jen

[Lucky Charm]

My sister nearly always manages to get in little digs about her moral superiority for being a SAHM every time we speak. So, I really never call her anymore.
I hear ya. my sister in law, 9 houses away does the exact same thing. as an added bonus, she makes sure she says how much she hates nurses (i am an ER nurse) :rolleyes:

i havent spoke to her in over 6 months. and you know what, i dont miss her. it sounds awful, but i never realized how stressful it was to have a "relationship" with her.

[gurumama]

So what it all comes down to is choice.

Feminism was about choice--being able to do something other than being a SAHM.

That word--CHOICE--should mean being able to select one of many options.

I've been a WAHM (3 years) and a SAHM (1 year, so far), and might soon be a WAHM/WOHM (residence life position with on campus office hours away from the kids) BY CHOICE--not financial necessity.

I know plenty of SAHMs who talk the talk but when push comes to shove, ignore their kids, use the t.v. too much, or become so wrapped up in volunteer work that they might as well stop calling themselves stay-at-home moms because they're gone (or dragging the kids to boring stuff) so much.

It's not about the LABEL. It's about how you treat your kids when you're with them.