Spinoff: Difficult baby/toddler thread

[TudoBem]

As a spin-off to was your gifted child a difficult baby/toddler thread...

When did it get better? What were the developmental factors that made the greatest difference in it getting easier?

Were subsequent children easier?

If subsequent children were easier, what do you attribute that to? I always wonder why one particular child is so difficult yet others can be easier.

Was the more difficult one the most intelligent?

And lastly, what advice would you give to a mother with a bright and challenging baby/toddler based on your own experience?

[lckrause]

When did it get better? What were the developmental factors that made the greatest difference in it getting easier?


It got a little better when he learned to hold a crayon/pencil and write (around 12-13 months) and when he started using the computer as a toddler. It got a LOT better when he learned to read around 2.5. I think basically he was just really driven to learn to read, and once he figured it out he calmed down a bit. Also, he could then read his own books, which meant I didn't have to read 20-30 books a day to him. A huge time/voice saver.


Were subsequent children easier?


My daughter was a much easier infant, until she became mobile at 5 months. I think if I'd had an average babe first I might have found her more difficult, but after her brother she seemed really easy. She even took NAPS sometimes. Imagine that.


If subsequent children were easier, what do you attribute that to?


Luck? :lol


Was the more difficult one the most intelligent?


Yes. They're both very smart, though. I think my second also naturally has a more easy-going personality.


And lastly, what advice would you give to a mother with a bright and challenging baby/toddler based on your own experience?

Engage them as much as possible, but not to the point where you're exhausted/going insane. For these kids, I really recommend the use of interactive devices such as learning games that will give you a break. I also recommend ignoring the "your child will sleep X hours" statements in baby books, as well as a lot of the milestone charts. Dwelling on them too much can freak out a new mom with a precocious child.

Also, memorize this phrase and use it when talking to people who remark on your child's "amazing"/"freaky" ability to XXXX: "Yes, thanks, he loves to XXXX! Aren't kids so much fun?"

[teachma]

When did it get better? What were the developmental factors that made the greatest difference in it getting easier?
My six year old has been very difficult since...well, pretty much since conception. And he continues to be a huge challenge at home.

Were subsequent children easier?
My daughter is THE original "easy" child, particularly in the absence of her brother.

If subsequent children were easier, what do you attribute that to?
Having put in my time tenfold!!!

Was the more difficult one the most intelligent?
Too early to tell...but the easy one definitely possesses a greater degree of emptional intelligence.

And lastly, what advice would you give to a mother with a bright and challenging baby/toddler based on your own experience?
Remember to regularly remind yourself of all your child's amazingly positive attributes!

[kimbernet]

Was the more difficult one the most intelligent?

Not in the case of our family. My brother was the most intelligent according to test scores yet he was an easy going child. He was the kind of child that rarely ever caused you to raise your voice. We only had to tell him once to stop doing something. His EQ was way up there as was his IQ. He had no problems making friends and was very compassionate- even at an early age. Our personalities are similar that way. I have no problems relating to other people. My sister was the first born and she has always been difficult. The teenage years were the worst for my parents. After she gained her independence from my parents, she was fine. She was always very independent and type A.

And lastly, what advice would you give to a mother with a bright and challenging baby/toddler based on your own experience?

This isn't based on my own experience BUT do not neglect the child's emotional intelligence. Studies have shown that EQ isn't set in stone until puberty but once it is, there's no changing it. If a child is struggling with the EQ side of things (sympathy, empathy, relating to others), they can change with help. IQ is not linked to success in life, EQ is. Teaching EQ should be just as important as teaching the child to read and write.

HTH

Kim

[Roar]

This isn't based on my own experience BUT do not neglect the child's emotional intelligence. Studies have shown that EQ isn't set in stone until puberty but once it is, there's no changing it. If a child is struggling with the EQ side of things (sympathy, empathy, relating to others), they can change with help. IQ is not linked to success in life, EQ is. Teaching EQ should be just as important as teaching the child to read and write.

Kim

Do you have any links to support your suggestions that people can't learn better emotional/social skills past puberty? This doesn't at all jive with my personal experience or observations of other people. Also, do you have any support for the contention that EQ is what determines success in life - what are you defining as success?

I think it is important to be really careful in these discussions. Some people are born to have greater emotional and social abilities. Some people are born to be social workers and some to be engineers. There are a some people (not this poster I'm sure but it is out there) who really seem to relish in taking gifted kids down a notch with talk about EQ. Some of the sensitivities that may be a part of giftedness for some kids can be viewed as being bratty, too intense, etc. and at times it seems some folks enjoy finding areas of relative immaturity and using them against intelligent kids.

[eclipse]

When did it get better? What were the developmental factors that made the greatest difference in it getting easier?

It got a little easier when mobility was achieved. Well, easier in some ways. When you have an 8 month old who can scale bookshelves while your head is turned, it can make for some heart stopping moment. But he was much less frustrated. It got a bit easier again when he learned to read books on his own - at around 3.

Were subsequent children easier?

My daughter was the "easiest" baby I've ever met. Slept through the night at 5 weeks, rarely cried, etc. She's more challenging as a three year old, but still way easier than DS1 ever was. My current babe is mellow as well, at least in comparison to DS1. He still wakes frequently at night, but other than that, he's an easy going fellow.

If subsequent children were easier, what do you attribute that to? I always wonder why one particular child is so difficult yet others can be easier.
DS1 always wanted to do things that he was not quite ready to do yet. He wanted to crawl, for example, from at least 3 months. I'd put him down and he'd really try to go. He knew it was a possibility, and it clearly frustrated him that he couldn't do it. When he was 2 1/2, it was reading. He wanted to read by himself with no help, and would throw books and cry when he couldn't do it. Once it clicked for him, he would sit for hours and read. As well, however, ds has a lot of sensory issues - loud noises, strong smells, textures, etc can set him off. It's a little easier now that he can communicate - but as a baby, if he was having trouble filtering things out, he had no way of telling me beyond crying.

Was the more difficult one the most intelligent?
It's too soon to say. DS1 is obviously way "ahead" academically than most kids his age. He's reading books like Harry Potter, learning to multiply, etc. OTOH, he has some emotional and social issues - quick to anger, sometimes has a tough time playing with kids his age because he wants to control all the play, etc. DD at 3 is nowhere near where he was in reading (just in the last few months has she learned her letters and letter sounds - about a year to a year and a half "behind" where DS1 was), but she seems to have a greater emotional intelligence - much more empathy, way more creative play than DS1 did and at earlier ages, etc. DS2 is only 11 months, so it's way too soon to say. He's not talking at all yet (sometimes makes sounds that sound like mama and dada, but I'm not convinced he's using them in context), which is new for me, as my older two were talking in short sentances by their first bday (I clearly remember DS1 carrying on full fledged conversations with guests at his first bday party!). I know it's perfectly normal for an 11 month old to not talk much, though.

And lastly, what advice would you give to a mother with a bright and challenging baby/toddler based on your own experience? Brace yourself for a bumpy ride! I found that DS1 thrives on knowing what his routine will be. It doesn't always have to be exactly the same routine, but if there will be changes, he really needs to be prepped for it.

[USAmma]

It's hard for me to answer this because both of my kids are bright and one has been classified as gifted, the other not. My first dd was academically very advanced (other areas too) but very behind socially and emotionally for awhile. My second dd is bright, an early talker (about 1.5 years ahead according to speech therapist), and very socially aware. She does things socially/emotionally that older kids don't yet but she doesn't have the early academic skills (she did learn colors, numbers, letters, etc early but is not reading or using the computer like dd1 did). dd2 has never been tested or seen by a psychologist, but her therapists tell me she's quite a bit ahead in some areas and *may* be classified as gifted when she's older, but her advanced areas are harder to measure than dd1's obvious abilities to read and write early, that sort of thing.

Anyway . . . .

When did it get better? What were the developmental factors that made the greatest difference in it getting easier?
My dd1 was the difficult one. She started to get better at around age 4. She had sensory issues on top of everything else, and started to outgrow those at 4 or 4.5 as predicted by the OT and psychologist. Once that started to happen she came out of her own world and started to be interested in being a part of ours. She started to slow down a bit with academics and made leaps and bounds with social/emotional development.

Were subsequent children easier?
Yes, in some ways my dd2 was and is easier. Certainly her temperament is. But while dd1 was extremely demanding, rigid, did not transition well, and had temper tantrums that were scary, my dd2 is quietly stubborn and manipulative and it's less obvious than dd1 that she's troubled by something.

If subsequent children were easier, what do you attribute that to? I always wonder why one particular child is so difficult yet others can be easier.
I attribute to them being unique people with different wiring. Dd2 has had a rough road with medical issues and one would expect her to be more emotionally needy because of that, but she's not. She's always been more mellow and settled. Dd1 had a very healthy baby/toddlerhood but was the difficult one.

Was the more difficult one the most intelligent?
No, they are both very bright and probably equal in intelligence. But my first one was more focused on the academics and therefore under-developed with emotional/social, whereas the second one is way ahead with social/emotional and not as focused on academics.

And lastly, what advice would you give to a mother with a bright and challenging baby/toddler based on your own experience?
Hang in there! It does get better! And also, try to keep your sense of humor. Treat them as normally as possible and give them the same expectations for behavior as another child-- but be warned that no parenting book quite works for them. You have to find your own path. I'm not ever sure I came up with a good way to parent dd1. We just hung in there until she grew out of that stage.

BTW she's still difficult and emotional. If we go out in public, it is my 5.5 year old who is more likely to give me behavior problems than my 2.5 year old. She is the one more likely to have tantrums or cry or be angry if she doesn't get her way. 5.5 year old also has become very good at framing her sister. For example I discovered yesterday that she will slap herself and then say, "Ow! She hit me!" in order to get her sister in trouble for hitting! After I caught her thanks to a rear view mirror, she admitted that she has been doing this for awhile. And then my 2.5 year old will taunt and push the buttons of my 5.5 year old to make 5.5 year old get so angry she will hit 2.5 year old and get in trouble. Both of them really keep me on my toes. They are so complex.

[TudoBem]

Thanks for the responses. It's been helpful to hear other people's experiences.
It sounds like in some scenarios a gifted child can be more challenging just because they want to do so much yet are limited by their abilities (i.e. a young baby that really wants to walk or a one year-old who really wants to read). However, it also seems that the more challenging/difficult babies/toddlers may be that way in large part due to temperament or in some cases perhaps due to sensory issues.
Intuitively it seems that a baby/toddler could be very intelligent and mellow at the same time and that they don't always have to be difficult.
My ds is not quite two and too young to label in any definitive way but we have dealt with almost two years of intensity and fussiness. His need for stimulation is exhausting, his lack of need for sleep is exhausting, and his demanding fussiness has almost sent us over the edge on several occasions. In his case I know he is a bright and curious child but I see his fussing and difficult behaviors as imbalances that don't necessarily need to be there. We've taken him to a homeopath for constitutional treatment and thankfully with that his intensity and fussiness have reduced and we've seen a lot more joy in him. I don't worry about how smart he will be but I do worry about how peaceful or joyful he will be. We try to bring a lot of laughter and levity to situations whenever we can to help him with his intense responses. I think mine is doing better but what a rough and exhausting road it's been.
BTW, I'm so relieved to read that your subsequent children have been different from your challenging ones. Dh and I have been discussing whether we have the energy to take the risk of having another!

[kimbernet]

Do you have any links to support your suggestions that people can't learn better emotional/social skills past puberty? This doesn't at all jive with my personal experience or observations of other people. Also, do you have any support for the contention that EQ is what determines success in life - what are you defining as success?

I think it is important to be really careful in these discussions. Some people are born to have greater emotional and social abilities. Some people are born to be social workers and some to be engineers. There are a some people (not this poster I'm sure but it is out there) who really seem to relish in taking gifted kids down a notch with talk about EQ. Some of the sensitivities that may be a part of giftedness for some kids can be viewed as being bratty, too intense, etc. and at times it seems some folks enjoy finding areas of relative immaturity and using them against intelligent kids.

Hi Roar,
I'm a WOHM and was in an AMA training class last year to improve my negotiating skills. Part of the class was viewing a 20/20 special on Emotional Intelligence. The link to purchase the video is here and it gives a brief summary:
http://www.abcnewsstore.com/store/index.cfm?fuseaction=customer.product&product_code=T960705%2002&category_code=3

I majored in Psychology so I found the video to right up my alley. :wink Part of the 20/20 special was that they followed 2 young brothers with IQs in the 140s. Both were in regular public school. Both children disrupted their classes and did not get along with their classmates on the playground. As an experiment to help these two boys, they put teacher helpers in the classes. The helpers wore cards around their neck with one side green and one side red. When one of the gifted boys disrupted class or wasn't interacting appropriately with his classmates, the helper would show him the red side of the card. If he was doing something well, the helper would flash the green side of the card. It all sounds very simple but it worked wonders for both the boys. They learned how to respect other people's boundaries and how to interact with everyone, including the teacher, better.

I'll try to find out what studies this 20/20 special referred to. I'm glad you asked!

Kim

[Roar]

Thanks Kim.

Honestly, I am just not going to take any ABC news special with anything other than a grain of salt. Of course they say emotional intelligence matters more, that is what people want to hear. As far as the green light, red light thing, what I'd like to see instead were genuine changes in the classroom environment to provide stimulating challenging work first.

[kimbernet]

Thanks Kim.

Honestly, I am just not going to take any ABC news special with anything other than a grain of salt. Of course they say emotional intelligence matters more, that is what people want to hear. As far as the green light, red light thing, what I'd like to see instead were genuine changes in the classroom environment to provide stimulating challenging work first.

Ok. I got out my notebook from the AMA class and everything they quote in regards to emotional intelligence comes from the book by the same title by Daniel Goleman. Here is an excerpt from his book that was quoted in my manual:

It's not that IQ and technical skill are irrelevant. They do matter, but mainly as "threshold capabilities"; that is, they are the entry-level requirements for executive positions. But my research, along with other recent studies, clearly shows that emotional intelligence is the sine qua non of leadership. Without it, a person can have the best training in the world, an incisive, analytical mind, and an endless supply of smart ideas, but still won't make a great leader.

The manual goes on to emphasize the following bullet points:
-Some researchers say 80% of success derives from EQ
-Stories abound of professionals who are brilliant in the fields but mismanage or neglect their working relationships with others. They place task over relationship at their own peril, and are passed over for promotions.

I wish I could recall more about the video and the two brothers. I think their problems were more about self control and empathy for others than about being challenged appropriately. There was also mention in the video of an EQ study performed at Bell Labs where one helpdesk tech with high EQ got more calls than the other tech with low EQ. When customers could not reach the favorite tech, they tried to fix their own problems. This demonstrated that not only was the high EQ tech more efficient at his/her job but he/she also increased the company's productivity. When talking about success in this context, its purely related to success at one's job or in one's career. We all know that jobs and careers aren't the only way to be successful in life. However, I want to challenge my DS to be the best he can be in all areas - not just intellectually but emotionally too. My original post on this thread was an attempt to convey that I felt that EQ was just as important to me as IQ. If my son is having trouble getting along with his peers, I don't want to say "oh well, he's gifted so it doesn't matter" or "it's a limitation he has". I don't want to put any limitations on his potential. I want him to be successful in all aspects of his life to the greatest degree that he can achieve. If DS has a high EQ then his big ideas will reach more people, kwim? :wink

Daniel Goleman's 5 components of EQ:
1) Self awareness - observing self and identifying feelings as they happen
2) Self-regulation - managing emotions appropriately and identifying the root causes for emotional reactions
3) Self motivation - directing emotions to achieve goals, emotional self-control
4) Social Awareness - Empathy. Sensitivity to others' feelings, appreciating differences and taking into account others' perspectives
5) Social Skill - Effective relationships. Social competence and skill when interacting with others. Building relationships and influence.

Kim

[Roar]

Ok. I got out my notebook from the AMA class and everything they quote in regards to emotional intelligence comes from the book by the same title by Daniel Goleman. Here is an excerpt from his book that was quoted in my manual:Kim

Thanks Kim. That helps. I've read the Daniel Goleman book so it helps to know that is what it referred to.

My perspective is that not everyone is meant to be a leader or has the personality to play the corporate game and to advance. For folks who want to, yes this stuff is important. But, there are some people that are meant to be mathematicans, lab researchers, engineers, etc. Part of my emotional intelligence is recognizing that while getting by on my abilities to read people and communicate has helped me in life - not everyone is me nor should they be.

The manual goes on to emphasize the following bullet points:
-Some researchers say 80% of success derives from EQ
-Stories abound of professionals who are brilliant in the fields but mismanage or neglect their working relationships with others. They place task over relationship at their own peril, and are passed over for promotions.Kim

Yes, it is stuff like this that gets on my nerves. This is great if your goal is to be a good worker or get a lot of promotions. For some the task may be way more important and my guess is those folks are the ones who will find a cure for cancer and that won't be due to their EQs.

I wish I could recall more about the video and the two brothers. I think their problems were more about self control and empathy for others than about being challenged appropriately. [/I]Kim

My thought is that people learn empathy in part by having their own needs met. If the child isn't getting a model of someone else meeting their needs where do they learn that? If we took the typical third grader and put them in a class all day with preschoolers and didn't explain to them why none of the work was on their level then they acted out would we say "ah their emotional intelligence isn't high enough". Or would we recognize that it is inappropriate not to meet a child's intellectual needs in school and that it can cause a child to act out?

Of course this isn't to say empathy or self control are unimportant. They are very important, but FIRST I believe the child needs to be offered an appropriate environment. I know I've learned with my son again and again that when the intellectual needs are met everything else can fall into place. Without meeting the intellectual needs - nothing can fall into place. It is that central for him.

However, I want to challenge my DS to be the best he can be in all areas - not just intellectually but emotionally too. My original post on this thread was an attempt to convey that I felt that EQ was just as important to me as IQ. If my son is having trouble getting along with his peers, I don't want to say "oh well, he's gifted so it doesn't matter" or "it's a limitation he has". I don't want to put any limitations on his potential. I want him to be successful in all aspects of his life to the greatest degree that he can achieve. If DS has a high EQ then his big ideas will reach more people, kwim? :wink [/I]Kim

I agree that it is inappropriate to say "oh he's gifted so it doesn't matter". I had a friend who did this endlessly and she was doing her children a disservice. That said, I would like to see the focus in the way emotional intelligence is discussed shifted to looking at what makes that individual happy within him or herself. Social and emotional skills are important in helping each person fulfill their individual goals, but we need to remember that these goals are very individual. Not everyone wants to work a help desk or be a CEO. Not everyone wants or needs dozens of friends. But, everyone needs to feel safe in their own skin and be able to maintain basic relationships with their family and that sort of thing. I don't believe we need to challenge our children to be successful. I think we need to support and nurture and get out of their way to let them fulfill their goals - not our goals.