I've been reading the new Alfie Kohn book, and it's got me to thinkin' (and yes, that's a new and painful concept for me). I was hoping for some anecdotal, personal info on here:

What do you think of homework? Time-wasting impingement on family evenings, stressful but necessary requirement or something you (or your child) couldn't do without? Is it a reason for homeschooling? Is there ever an age too young for homework?

What was your experience with homework when you were a child? When did you first start getting homework? (I didn't until 6th grade) Did you like it? Was it something to get done and out of the way?

Are some sorts of homework better than others? Photocopied sheets? Projects? Projects that you chose? Papers?

If you are a teacher, in the name of full disclosure, please let us know.

I personally think that most teachers and parents are in favor of homework. I would just like to hear more regarding why...but also why you might not be in favor. Does it seem like most of the parents at your child's school favor homework?

Alfie Kohn Interview (http://www.educationnews.org/writers/michael/An_Interview_with_Alfie_Kohn_About_the_Homework_Bo ok.htm)
Time Magazine article (http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1376208,00.html) (although this misstates his suggestion for homework - he doesn't actually say to abolish it completely but make it to the exception to the rule rather than the rule...)
Diane Rehm Show - podcast or online (http://www.wamu.org/programs/dr/06/09/05.php) (this is very good)

I think homework is fine. As long as you are not talking 6 hours worth or something like that. My son has about an hour of homework, then he is free to play or do whatever he wants until dinner time.

complete and utter waste. my son is now homeschooled, partly due to homework - which he refused to do and was the source of much stress in the household - till I was trying to figure out why we fought so badly over it and he was failing classes for not doing homework WHILE ACING THE TESTS, not ONE test, but ALL tests, 100%. when that fact hit me, I was like...no, this isnt working. he KNOWS the info, as the tests obviously show, so why is he failing classes? isnt the point to learn the info? ridiculous.

I started having homewrok in 3rd grade. right about the time I stopped doing schoolwork. :O

I am a fourth grade teacher. From my perspective, homework sort of is a waste of MY time...and a BIG infringement on my family time!! I would much rather spend my homework-correcting time playing or reading with my children. Nonetheless, our school district policy dictates the amount of homework we are to assign nightly, and so we do.

And from the working-parent perspective, homework for my own children definitely takes away from our very limited afternoon time together. My son (in first grade) doesn't receive regularly assigned homework this year, nor did he in kindergarten, but he absolutely LOVES it when he does get homework. He hasn't yet asked for my help with any of the assignments (he's pretty self-sufficient in that respect) but he does go up to his room to work at his desk, which takes him away from the family.

As for an appropriate age to initiate homework, I can't say there's an age I feel is too young. My 2.5 year old daughter loves to do "work" with me. Many of us here at MDC homeschool to some extent; is there an age too young to start that? I feel like I've been schooling my children in one respect or another for quite some time, so I think homework is appropriate at any level. Now, the nature of the homework is a different matter. Worksheets for kindergarteners? Blechhh. But MY kid loved them from age 3 on! I guess like anything, homework isn't necessarily a bad thing but it certainly can be, for some children.

Sorry so fragmented.

I think homework, in concept, is an important part of school. Of course, it can be mis-used, just like most other things in the world. But in a reasonable amount (for the child's age), complimenting what is done in class, clear and understandable to both kid and parent, challenging but not overwhelming, it is a a good thing. Unfortunately, it seems that few kids get that kind of homework on a regular basis, at least according to rumor.

I think its an important part of school for a couple of reasons. The first is that it helps a child and teacher figure out if they really understood what was done in the classroom. Its one thing to nod understanding in class, and another to be able to do it on one's own. Practicing new skills is important for learning and remembering them.

It also gives students and opportunity to develop independent work habits, time management, and self-discipline. Which, in the end, are probably more important than the ability to actually do whatever was on the assignment sheet. There should also be some pride of accomplishment and workmanship.

Is homework the only way to do this? Probably not. But is it authomatically "evil". I don't think so. Is it always fun and games? No, but then, things that are worth it in the end frequently aren't much fun in the middle.

In the interest of full disclosure, my DS attends a traditional private school with a strong commitment to good homework. As a 1st grader, he has spelling, reading, and math each night, to total about half an hour's worth of work on a regular basis, plus special projects about once every coulple of months or so. I am happy with both the amount and type of homework he has. Which isn't to say that its been a bit of a struggle to get a routine down that doesn't overwhelm him, frustrate me, and make everyone miserable. We're still working on that. But we'll get there.

Waste, when I was in school I did great on the tests but never bothered with the homework, talk about boring stuff.

I hated homework when I was in school, because it cut into my reading time. I ended up barely graduating when I should have had the highest marks in my grad class. The fact that my homework was never completed was a major factor in this.

I hate ds1's homework. I've broached the idea of homeschooling, and he doesn't want to do it. He's really into the social side of things, and doesn't want to lose touch with his "established" friends. So...I guess we've got five more years of this stuff.

IME, the homework load breeds resentment of the teachers, dislike of the subject, and interferes greatly with family time. I really wish the only homework ds1 got was drills (eg. spelling and French vocab) and incomplete class assignments to finish.

Teachma (and others who homeschool in preschool), you say your daughter had homework from 2.5 on, your son loved worksheets from age 3. Were these things they chose or you assigned to them with an expectation of a due date, correctness, etc? I know my daughter has also gone through loving cheap-workbook phases, but she chose when, where, and how to do them, and not in any sort of order?

Evan and Anna's mom (and others who appreciate homework), is the homework a source of disagreement or arguing in the home, or something that brings the family together (like playing scrabble or something)? Does he ask to do it right away when he gets home, because he's so excited about it? Are they worksheet-type drill exercises or something different? And for those with older children, has the excitement regarding homework changed as the children get older or stay about the same?

Arlecchina (and others who chose homeschooling or hated homework as kids) - did you ever talk to the teacher about the type or amount of work - ask for no homework or less...how was it received? How do the homeschoolers work at home now - do they like "doing academic work" (i.e. reading, math) in a different way?

Sorry for so many questions. It all makes me think. (ow. ow. ow.):dizzy:

I agree that homework for my kids was a waste of time and cut into our family time. That is one of the reasons we are now homeschooling. I was having to re-teach the information as the kids were doing for homework after they had been in school for 8 hours a day. It was just too much stress on the kids.

I remember getting homework in 2nd grade.

I think most homework is a complete and utter waste of time and an infringement on family time. I'm so glad I found a homework-free school for my kiddoes (well, there's the occasional project to be completed at home, but no "busywork.")

I don't think homework is always necessary, and I hate it when the kids get assigned homework just for the sake of it being assigned. Meaning, the school rule is x amount of time per night, so teachers assign "busy work" type stuff for the kids -- it's time away from family activities, and frustrating to me as a parent because it makes for a battle every time. I don't mind projects, provided there are some guidelines given.

I do think homework can serve an important role, but for the most part, I don't think there's enough of the creative-type assignments being given.

I teach 11th grade American History and Economics.

I don't assign much homework. We are scheduled on blocks so I have 90 minutes a day to get in what I need to. Usually there is nothing for them to take home b/c I require them to actually work hard during our class period.

I do assign a big research paper during one semester, to be done on my time AND theirs. I take them to the library, usually every other week for about 2 months, and any research or work that they can't complete in that time must be done on their own time. I really think that is a valuable assignment in looking forward to their college careers. I never had a professor take our class to the library or give us time in class to write a paper, and part of my job is to get these kids ready for college. When they are done with my paper, any paper they go to write in college will be a breeze. They also occasionally have a project that they'll have to finish up at home, but that probably only happens once every 6-9 weeks.

I don't like assigning busy work as homework. I never have. So I don't.

http://www.mothering.com/discussions/showthread.php?t=515453
I expressed some of my thoughts there.

What do you think of homework? Time-wasting impingement on family evenings, stressful but necessary requirement or something you (or your child) couldn't do without? Is it a reason for homeschooling? Is there ever an age too young for homework?

Time-wasting impingement on family evenings, for the most part.

If we absolutely couldn't escape truly awful homework, I would homeschool again, probably.

It depends on the homework. If it's age-appropriate "you might do this with your child" suggestions, that's different. In preschool, we had to do a lot of "find something that begins with this letter" and that was okay. I think my standards for okay homework are that the child can do it independently. Part of homework is developing responsibility, and if we're giving it before kids can take the responsibility, we're actually teaching that it's mom's or dad's responsibility.

What was your experience with homework when you were a child? When did you first start getting homework? (I didn't until 6th grade) Did you like it? Was it something to get done and out of the way?

I think homework began with spelling words and math drill in 1st grade but didn't move beyond that until 3rd grade when we had play parts to memorize (teacher was very into class plays) and then "real" homework in either 4th or 5th grade. I can't say that I liked it, but it wasn't busywork either. I began to see the value by about 8th grade.

Are some sorts of homework better than others? Photocopied sheets? Projects? Projects that you chose? Papers?

Absolutely. As I mentioned above, homework that can be done independently when it is appropriate for a child to be ready for the responsibility is better than others. Homework that expands upon rather than repeats what happened in class is preferable. Choice is preferable.

If you are a teacher, in the name of full disclosure, please let us know.

I personally think that most teachers and parents are in favor of homework. I would just like to hear more regarding why...but also why you might not be in favor.

Does it seem like most of the parents at your child's school favor homework?
No. But part of the school's philosophy is "no homework." I'm surprised that some parents do favor homework -- it seems like there is such a wide world of enrichment to be discovered! Does this make it easier to turn off the tv and the nintendo if someone outside the home says, "do this by when"?

What do you think of homework? Time-wasting impingement on family evenings... that about sums it up. Children are already in school too long, IMO. making them take their work home is borderline torture!

What was your experience with homework when you were a child? I hated it, and rarely did it. I was the student who was constantly in trouble for not doing it. When did you first start getting homework? First grade. By 3rd grade I had at least two hours of it a night. Did you like it? Um, no Was it something to get done and out of the way? Never bothered

Are some sorts of homework better than others? Photocopied sheets? Projects? Projects that you chose? Papers? Once in awhile projects are one thing, the rest of the stuff I can do without.

The lack of homework is one thing that is a factor in our decision to (most likely) homeschool.

I think homework is fine. As long as you are not talking 6 hours worth or something like that. My son has about an hour of homework, then he is free to play or do whatever he wants until dinner time.

How old is your son? For my 2nd grader and K kid, an hour every night would be excruciating.

What do you think of homework?

I have a first grader. So far, I'm fine with the amount of homework she has. Homework folders go out at the beginning of the week and are due at the end, and she's able to complete the work by doing 15 minutes a day. I don't find it to be an infringement on family time-we do it right when she gets home. The content is fine-a couple of simple math worksheets, some language arts worksheets, and a journaling assignment.

I did feel she was too young to do what was assigned in kindergarten last year, though. I had to end up doing a lot of it-it was just silly, especially since they crammed SO much content into the three hours she was there. I'm amazed she retained anything at all. The busywork was unnecessary-they should have just stuck to the reading log and that's it.

What was your experience with homework when you were a child?


I don't really remember when it started-certainly not in primary school. I loved school AND homework-it was something I could control and I enjoyed doing well.

Are some sorts of homework better than others? Photocopied sheets? Projects? Projects that you chose? Papers?

I personally prefer seeing her do conceptual things that make her think, "research" projects, etc. instead of the three r's. :yawn We do that sort of thing independently.

Teachma (and others who homeschool in preschool), you say your daughter had homework from 2.5 on, your son loved worksheets from age 3. Were these things they chose or you assigned to them with an expectation of a due date, correctness, etc? I know my daughter has also gone through loving cheap-workbook phases, but she chose when, where, and how to do them, and not in any sort of order?


Let me clarify. My daughter is very "into" school-type activities. She is the type to pick up a blank notebook and ask me to write some letters, then command me: Mommy, tell me to circle the N. She made up these workbook-like activities and will insist I participate with her over and over. It's not real homework, but if I think about it, it iisn't much different. Ds used to use the workbooks to unwind (he likes the monotony and repetitiveness, along with the clear expectations of an "assignment.") but he also loves any worksheet or project his public school teachers send home for him to complete. Although the teachers and I never placed a firm expectation on him in terms of correctness and due date, he is a huger perfectionist and somehow internalized the "Homework comes first" attitude. And as for correctness, well...he just always has to be... Hope this helps!

What do you think of homework?

For the most part, I think it is a major infringement on family time, especially if it is stupid busy work. A short, quality activity done with parental involment is as far as it should ever go, as far as I'm concerned.

Is it a reason for homeschooling?

My mother is a teacher and facilitated one of her students to start homeschooling with his mother this year. His 4th grade homework was a nightly battle that could take up to four hours. My mom convinced his mom that she could teach him herself in less time with fewer battles. So, yes, I think it is sometimes a reason for homeschooling.

Is there ever an age too young for homework?

For work done exclusively by the child, I would say no younger than 11/12 (6th grade/middle school). I would have no issue with quick things like "read a story with mom" or "look up x in the encyclopedia with dad." Those things take virtually no time and involve the parents in the kids' education. I think small activites are acceptable from kindergarten on.


What was your experience with homework when you were a child?

Sadly, I had negative experiences with homework almost from day one in school :( . It became a daily battle with my mother. I would lie to her constantly that I'd done it, then wouldn't have anything to turn in to school. She would get called, I would get in trouble... it was a never-ending cycle. Horrible. It really did a lot of damage to our relationship.

When did you first start getting homework?

Probably 3rd grade.

Did you like it?

No.

Was it something to get done and out of the way?

Most of the time it never got done.

Are some sorts of homework better than others?

As I said above, I see homework more as a way to extend education into the home. So I have no problem with small assignments that foster the child's intellect and involves the parents in a POSITIVE WAY.

I do think that homework has its' place starting in middle school and extending through college. Most of my high school classes were advanced and we had reading and exercises to do that were necessary for the following class. We also had papers and so forth... I really didn't mind doing that stuff. That was good preparation for college, which was the same way. I could do it on my own time and with my own rules. But the stuff they had me doing in elementary school was total crap.

How old is your son? For my 2nd grader and K kid, an hour every night would be excruciating.

The average is an hour. But, sometimes it is much less.

He is 8, going on 9, and in second grade. (we decided to have him repeat 2nd grade~ LONG story) He usually has one worksheet to do, 2 sides, and I have him read to me a few pages from a book. So, about a half hour to 45 min he might spend on the worksheet, sometimes he only spends 15-20 min finishing it. Then we read. He does not mind the work at all. He rarely complains. I think it is a winding-down from the school day for him. Then, he gets to go outside and do what he wants. Considering he gets home right at 3, and gets at least 2 hours outside, or playing inside if the weather is nasty, I don't think it is bad at all. Then, after dinner, the boys play, get cleaned up and ready for bed, and then go to bed around 8.

My son has had some behavioral problems, and quite frankly, having a more structured schedule has helped him tremendously. The worksheets are educational and help him;they are not just "busy work". I also love to have him read to me. His 7 yr old brother has Autism and his other brother is a toddler who both require a LOT of attention. This is our mom and son time, because the toddler is down for a nap and I allow my 7 yr old on the computer so there are no interruptions.

I feel that a half-hour to an hour is not much to ask for. I also think that if they start slow, that when they get to high school, and the real homework begins to come in, they will be used to it and have good study habits. I remember having 2-3 hours of homework some nights when I was in high school.

But, that is just my opinion.:wink

We homeschool/unschool, so, well, I guess that basically answers your question. :lol But homework is one of the many problems I have with institutional schools. Specifically, the way schools require parents to act as the schools "enforcers" by making the kids do homework. It can put a big strain on the parent-child relationship, as it did between me and my mom when I was a kid. Basically it turns into a situation where instead of the school acting in loco parentis, the parents have to act in loco ludi (in the place of the school).

Besides that, most homework in the early grades is essentially busywork. It isn't intended to teach the subject but to teach homework-doing. And kids with parents who are willing and able to help with homework (often higher income) are at an advantage over kids whose parents are unwilling or unable to do so (often lower income).

One of the (many) problems I have with increased academics (homework, deskwork, tests) in the early grades is that at that age, so much is dependent on parents, and so much of parenting is influenced by social class. If Johnny gets bad grades in kindergarten because his mom works two jobs and can't help him with homework after school, that label of "problem child" will stay with him for the rest of his schooing years. I don't think teachers should assign homework with the expectation that the kids will get parental help; some kids don't, and you're just further disadvantagizing (is that a word?) the already disadvantaged.

:truedat:

My son has had some behavioral problems, and quite frankly, having a more structured schedule has helped him tremendously. This is our mom and son time,

I feel that a half-hour to an hour is not much to ask for. I also think that if they start slow, that when they get to high school, and the real homework begins to come in, they will be used to it and have good study habits. I remember having 2-3 hours of homework some nights when I was in high school.

But, that is just my opinion.:wink

Good point about the structured schedule; I've noticed that it's good for us too. I would rather spend mother/child time doing other things, I guess, and I feel strongly that assigning things that demand parental assistance is the wrong way to teach responsibility. I'm glad that we can all find what we want for our children from schools, though!

We have a reading log also, and while it does motivate us to get a book out nightly or almost, I don't like the clock-watching aspect. When dd reads independently, I don't want to ruin the pleasure by making it a chore in any way.

[QUOTE=Brigianna
One of the (many) problems I have with increased academics (homework, deskwork, tests) in the early grades is that at that age, so much is dependent on parents, and so much of parenting is influenced by social class. If Johnny gets bad grades in kindergarten because his mom works two jobs and can't help him with homework after school, that label of "problem child" will stay with him for the rest of his schooing years. I don't think teachers should assign homework with the expectation that the kids will get parental help; some kids don't, and you're just further disadvantagizing (is that a word?) the already disadvantaged.[/QUOTE]

I totally agree!

I ran into an interesting thing with ds's K teacher. She wants kids to bring in things to talk about, but doesn't want these things to be toys because of the have-have not divide they might highlight. So she wants things like vacation pictures. Um, it's pretty easy to keep up with having a few toys, but we can't keep up with the trips to Australia and Europe that other kids get!

Good point about the structured schedule; I've noticed that it's good for us too. I would rather spend mother/child time doing other things, I guess, and I feel strongly that assigning things that demand parental assistance is the wrong way to teach responsibility. I'm glad that we can all find what we want for our children from schools, though!

We have a reading log also, and while it does motivate us to get a book out nightly or almost, I don't like the clock-watching aspect. When dd reads independently, I don't want to ruin the pleasure by making it a chore in any way.

Actually, he can do the worksheets without any assistance, really. I am around if he needs me, which is rare. And the reading is my idea, not the teacher's. My son has had reading problems. He understands what he is reading, but is choppy when he reads. I believe the more he reads, the better he will get, and reading is one of the most important things. If you cannot read, you have a harder time functioning in the world. My husband has a reading problem. He has had to struggle his whole life, and his mother did not help or get him help.

This past weekend, he had an assignment to make a small booklet about his community. That gave us time to look things up, print pictures, he drew some pictures and I think it turned out well. We learned some things about our community that we didn't know about, and we had a ball.

The only thing I am particular about, is neatness. I don't nag him. But I stress how important it is for people to be able to read what you write. In this age of computers and word processing, actual writing is becoming a lost art. I feel it is important to be able to write legibly.

I may seem kind of anal-retentive and strict. But, DS1 doesn't really complain and seems to enjoy our time together. AND, we do other things together besides schoolwork. I am his mama first and foremost.:innocent :loveeyes:

I've woked as a sub teacher for ages 12-15 (twice for full semesters, including planning and grading and all that) IMO homework should consist only of what the child feel they need to do to keep up and understand the concept. If they do nothing in class, they will ahve a hard time understanding what is going on. If they work in class and feel they understand the subject at hand, they don't have to do any homework. Same for projects. If they finish it up working only while in class, fine. If not, they get to do some on their own time.

Homework do be done just to be done is a waste of time and brainpower.

Evan and Anna's mom (and others who appreciate homework), is the homework a source of disagreement or arguing in the home, or something that brings the family together (like playing scrabble or something)? Does he ask to do it right away when he gets home, because he's so excited about it? Are they worksheet-type drill exercises or something different?

His approach to it varies by day at the moment. No, its not something he is super excited about doing, But then he's not super excited about brushing his teeth either, but it still needs to get done each day. I'd say about 50% of the time (schools' been going for 3 weeks now), he has sat down to do his work without complaint, the rest of the time its been a bit more stressful, though he has always gotten it done before dinner. Not really argueing over it, but having to ask him more than once to start his work.

He has a problem concentrating on anything for long, so for us it is a way to help him learn to keep himself on task, something he needs to practice a lot and I'm actually glad to have an assignment to just give me something to work with him on. "Sit down and concentrate on Legos for 15 minutes" sounds a bit odder than "Please sit down and do your spelling words."

At the moment, most of his nightly assignment is reading and spelling. He reads a story out loud each day, then practices his spelling words. For the first two days of the week, he writes the words and for the next two we give practice spelling tests. So it is interactive time and a time when either DH or I are concentrating just on him. He has math problems to finish only if he didn't finish in class. Which is a good example for him of the consequences of not focusing in class -- less play time at the end of the day because of more homework. Much more concrete and immediate than getting a poor grade at the end of the semester.

So I guess part of the reason I feel comfortable with it is that they are things that genuinely improve with practice -- reading we would do anyway and spelling needs to be memorized, there just isn't any other way. Same with math facts. If I felt it was homework for the sake of fulfilling some "guideline from above", then I might respond differently.

The projects that we will start later in the year are generally fun stuff -- like build a robot or make a model of something. He really enjoys these sorts of things (or at least he did last year) and will spend lots of time talking about what he wants to do and making it. These are things the kids are supposed to do by themselves and not have the parents do more than coach. Parents are expected to follow the rules of the school just as much as the kids, so its fair for everyone.

I must say, I don't understand the "interfers with family time" thing. I guess I'm baffled how anyone has "family time" on a weekend afternoon? DH is gone until just before dinner and 3 of the 5 afternoons the kids have some sort of afterschool activity (dance, gymnastics, tennis, baseball, depending on the season and the kid). Otherwise the kids play for a bit and then DS does his homework with DH while I make dinner or vice versa. After dinner is one long round of baths, reading (parents reading aloud) and bedtime. Which I guess is family time but not something super exciting either. Maybe its different with older kids? Or kids that have more time in the afternoon? Or homes where both parents aren't working at least part-time? We don't even get home from school until almost 4, eat at 6, bed as close to 8 as possible. So I guess I don't feel like we are all missing out on something just because DS has 30 minutes of homework!

I think homework is a total waste of time. It is one of many reasons we are going to homeschool (unschool actually). They have the kids for 6+ hours a day. That is FAR more time than even the most challenged kids need to learn the meager expectations of each grade level. I think school should be no more than 3 hours a day with NO homework.

I did not start getting homework until about the 5th grade. I hated it like any other kid did but I alwasy completed it and did well academically. My parents always considered homework my issue and never asked me to do it a certain time nor did they even want to check it. Most of it was done in other classes or on the bus. I had way more important things to sepnd my free time on......like learning a musical instrument, reading for pleasure, cooking, exercise.... Who is to say those things are more or less important than school subject?

I am a college instructor. I am required to assign a certain amount of homework. And frankly, by the time these kids are spit out of the school systems, they are incapable of learning anything without me "assigning" it. I think it is very sad and takes the joy out of learning.

If my child decides at some point that she wants to attend school we will explain what will be required of her if she wants a "good grade". That will likely mean homework. However, it will be completely up to her whether or not she decides to actually do it as well as when, where, and how.

I'm homeschooling my kids because of homework, among other things. My ds was coming home from kindergarten with homework. I wouldn't force him to do it and then I got "talked to" by the teacher about the importance of him finishing his homework at home and then bringing it back to school. My 2nd dd was in the 3rd grade and coming home with 3 hours of homework a night. Our days went like this: Get off the bus at 3:00, quickly get ready for gymnastics, get to gymnastics by 3:30, spend 2 hours in the gym. Because of traffic we'd get home around 6:30. I'd get dinner started while she started her homework. We'd stop homework so she could eat dinner, then we'd have to get back to the homework. She was generally done with homework by 10pm, or if she wasn't she'd have to go to bed then anyhow. There was NO family time because of that homework. Then, on the days that she didn't get it done at home, she'd be kept in from recess, music, and library. I'd had enough and pulled both of them.

I'm homeschooling my kids because of homework, among other things. My ds was coming home from kindergarten with homework. I wouldn't force him to do it and then I got "talked to" by the teacher about the importance of him finishing his homework at home and then bringing it back to school. My 2nd dd was in the 3rd grade and coming home with 3 hours of homework a night. Our days went like this: Get off the bus at 3:00, quickly get ready for gymnastics, get to gymnastics by 3:30, spend 2 hours in the gym. Because of traffic we'd get home around 6:30. I'd get dinner started while she started her homework. We'd stop homework so she could eat dinner, then we'd have to get back to the homework. She was generally done with homework by 10pm, or if she wasn't she'd have to go to bed then anyhow. There was NO family time because of that homework. Then, on the days that she didn't get it done at home, she'd be kept in from recess, music, and library. I'd had enough and pulled both of them.


Now, THAT is excessive. 3 hours?

If my child decides at some point that she wants to attend school we will explain what will be required of her if she wants a "good grade". That will likely mean homework. However, it will be completely up to her whether or not she decides to actually do it as well as when, where, and how.

If your child is going to get to choose to do what is most likely going to be expected of her, why would you let her go to school? I mean, most schools do have requirements, like homework.

I don't mean that in a snarky manner. I am genuinely curious. It would seem that you would be setting her up for trouble by letting her go to school and her being allowed to choose not do her homework.

Could you please elaborate? I want to understand your thinking. Thank you.

Now, THAT is excessive. 3 hours? I agree..the guidelines are no more than 30 minutes for 1st and 2nd graders and I think the limit is an hour a day for older elementray schoolers. Is your dd in a gifted and talented program?

If your child is going to get to choose to do what is most likely going to be expected of her, why would you let her go to school? I mean, most schools do have requirements, like homework.

I don't mean that in a snarky manner. I am genuinely curious. It would seem that you would be setting her up for trouble by letting her go to school and her being allowed to choose not do her homework.

Could you please elaborate? I want to understand your thinking. Thank you.

I'm not Yooper, but I see where she's coming from. My daughter (1st grade) has decided to try public school this year. It was her choice. There may be homework assigned. That will also be her choice whether to do it or not (and I made that clear to the teacher already - this is an "alternative" school, so I think the school might respect it if she didn't want to do it at all). If she wants to do it, fine. We will make time in our family evenings for it. But I'm not going to nag her or pressure her or remind her. If there are consequences to her choice (as you say - setting her up for trouble), then she'll have to reevaluate whether she wants to stay at the school or not; and maybe the teacher just won't assign it to her. I do appreciate that this teacher individualizes all homework, supposedly - she makes different packets for each child based on their unique needs. That's cool. But I highly doubt my kid will sit still and practice spelling words or do pages of math worksheets. But - willing to be wrong here.

I do see the infringement on busy family evenings. This is what our evening last night looked like: 4 pm, get home. I made dinner. She practiced her fiddle (which she loves to do) and told me all about her school day. 5 pm, dad gets home, and we all eat. We sit around and talk, she played with her little brother. 6:30 pm, we walked to the park and played all together. 7 pm, she made her lunch for the next day. 7:30, we read a book together until 8:30. She went to sleep. It was a very relaxing and wonderful night. If she wishes to do homework in there, then that will be her choice. But, she also wants to join a choir and take drawing lessons. Hmm...

We are still finding our place with this stuff, as this is the first year she's gone to public school. Before this, we've homeschooled and montessori schooled. Montessori doesn't assign homework until 4th grade or so, and only rarely at that. But like I've said, Alfie Kohn's book made me reevaluate many of the assumptions I'd held about the role of homework.

If your child is going to get to choose to do what is most likely going to be expected of her, why would you let her go to school? I mean, most schools do have requirements, like homework.

I don't mean that in a snarky manner. I am genuinely curious. It would seem that you would be setting her up for trouble by letting her go to school and her being allowed to choose not do her homework.

Could you please elaborate? I want to understand your thinking. Thank you.

FSM answered this well. But I will add my personal spin. In general, I do not make decisions for dd. Because she is not really aware of school or what it involves at this point, she does not have an opinion on whether or not to attend so we (dh and I) are making that decision for her in that we are not sending her to preschool at this time. However, I would be naive to think that there will never be a point in which dd will not be curious about school and perhaps ask to attend. At this point my plan is to start out by having her attend as a guest on a one day basis, with a friend perhaps. If that does not satisfy her curiosity or if she goes and LOVES it, we will enroll her. However, I plan to be completely honest about my opinions on schooling, why we have not choosen to require her to attend, and what we feel the specific drawbacks are to it (in this example, homework and letter grades would be pertinent). Before she attends (at her request) we would make it clear that "success" (typically grades) would depend on properly completeing homework within a specified timeframe, following rules, working on specific subjects at specific times and for specific amounts of time/content, taking tests, etc...... I do not see it as setting her up for trouble/failure mostly because I do not believe in the concept of failure as determined by letter grades. And she will be told that there are some expectations that if not followed could result in disciplinary action (imposed by the school) that might not even be grade related. Again, she can decide if the school experience is valuable enough to her to either follow the rules or suffer the consequences. If she wants to go, does not do homework, is maybe not even learning anything, but still finds the experience worthwhile, I consider that a success and a valuable activity (to her anyway). I do realize that she might not be happy getting poor grades and it will be then that we can discuss ways to change that. If getting a good grade is important enough to her to sacrifice free/family time and doing what might be boring/pointless homework, she can decide to do so. And of course, she would be free to quit going at any point.

How this will actually play out is still quite the crapshoot. She might end up deciding to go to school and become a model student. She might try it, do nothing that is considered "effort" by the teacher and be given all F's. Or she might never choose to attend. But that will be her decision.

Okay Yooper. I understand a LOT better, thank you. I hope you didn't think. Actually, it is a lot closer to how I feel about it than you think. My comment about setting her up to fail by allowing her to choose whether to do homework or not, was NOT meant to say I think that letter grades determine failure or success. I know that is not always the case, and more times than not, is NOT the case at all.

Thank you for explaining your position so eloquently and politely. I did not want to offend.

I must say, I don't understand the "interfers with family time" thing. I guess I'm baffled how anyone has "family time" on a weekend afternoon?
Those are our major "family time slots". I take a while to get moving in the morning, so weekend afternoons tend to be when we're out hiking or going to the aquarium or planetarium or just for a walk or whatever.

Otherwise the kids play for a bit and then DS does his homework with DH while I make dinner or vice versa.
That's usually when we stuff ds1's homework into the schedule. But, it's still difficult sometimes...he often needs clarification and such, so I have to leave stuff on thestove to look at the questions or dh has to try to help him while dealing with cranky little ones.

After dinner is one long round of baths, reading (parents reading aloud) and bedtime. Which I guess is family time but not something super exciting either.
That's our family time - the evenings. We don't do daily baths, and reading (or singing) to the kids at bedtime is one of my favourite parenting activities - one I've missed out on many times because ds1 needed help with his homework.

We don't even get home from school until almost 4, eat at 6, bed as close to 8 as possible. So I guess I don't feel like we are all missing out on something just because DS has 30 minutes of homework!
With that tight a schedule, I think I'd feel I was missing out on even more. Of course, half an hour of homework is merely a dream...

Actually, he can do the worksheets without any assistance, really. I am around if he needs me, which is rare. And the reading is my idea, not the teacher's. My son has had reading problems. He understands what he is reading, but is choppy when he reads. I believe the more he reads, the better he will get, and reading is one of the most important things. If you cannot read, you have a harder time functioning in the world. My husband has a reading problem. He has had to struggle his whole life, and his mother did not help or get him help.

This past weekend, he had an assignment to make a small booklet about his community. That gave us time to look things up, print pictures, he drew some pictures and I think it turned out well. We learned some things about our community that we didn't know about, and we had a ball.

The only thing I am particular about, is neatness. I don't nag him. But I stress how important it is for people to be able to read what you write. In this age of computers and word processing, actual writing is becoming a lost art. I feel it is important to be able to write legibly.

I may seem kind of anal-retentive and strict. But, DS1 doesn't really complain and seems to enjoy our time together. AND, we do other things together besides schoolwork. I am his mama first and foremost.:innocent :loveeyes:

I think you just sound like you're a different person who enjoys doing different things with your child (who also enjoys these things) than what my kids and I enjoy doing together -- which is 100% okay. But if our school required so much homework, my family would not be 100% okay with it.

I agree with you about reading. She reads, she's expected to read. It's the log (which is the school's thing, they're supposed to read at least 15 minutes/day outside of school, where they also have quiet reading time scheduled in) that I don't like. I could live with checking a box, but I'm not going to make her use a stopwatch.

I think you just sound like you're a different person who enjoys doing different things with your child (who also enjoys these things) than what my kids and I enjoy doing together -- which is 100% okay. But if our school required so much homework, my family would not be 100% okay with it.

I agree with you about reading. She reads, she's expected to read. It's the log (which is the school's thing, they're supposed to read at least 15 minutes/day outside of school, where they also have quiet reading time scheduled in) that I don't like. I could live with checking a box, but I'm not going to make her use a stopwatch.


Whatever works, is my motto. I am also returning to college after 18 yrs. A 38 yr old sophomore. LOL! So, I have academics on the brain, I am afraid. I agree about the stopwatch. I gave the time as an average, we definitely don't time him.

A funny story. DS was complaining about some math he had to do. Not a lot, but he just didn't feel like doing it. I showed him MY math homework (4 pages, front and back) for college, and he thought that was so funny, and went and did his one side of a page of math problems. He said he felt sorry for me. LOL! Actually, I do too. Math was the one general education requirement I did not finish 18 yrs ago.

Okay Yooper. I understand a LOT better, thank you. I hope you didn't think. Actually, it is a lot closer to how I feel about it than you think. My comment about setting her up to fail by allowing her to choose whether to do homework or not, was NOT meant to say I think that letter grades determine failure or success. I know that is not always the case, and more times than not, is NOT the case at all.

Thank you for explaining your position so eloquently and politely. I did not want to offend.

Not offended at all:)

I saw it as an honest question. And I know many many people disagree with me so I expect to answer questions and even dodge tomatoes on a regular basis. That is cool with me.

My 1st grade dd has a workbook. When it was first sent home I groaned and rolled my eyes. I loathe busy work, which is how I generally view workbooks and worksheets. But, I actually wound up being okay with it for a few reasons. First, there are a number of sheets that are assigned each week on Monday and due the following Monday, which helps eliminate the disruptions in our evening family life or potential for conflicts that Kohn refers to since we don't have to concern ourselves with making time for it on a daily basis. Second, the teacher stressed that he never wants to hear that anyone is spending more than ten minutes per sheet and that if anyone regularly is, he will re-evaluate the amount of pages assigned. Third, the homework is not graded or corrected. The intention of the homework is to keep parents in tune with the focus of the classroom so it can be supported or re-inforced at home and to be one of many ways possible to alert the parents and the teacher if there are any areas that the child is really struggling with. Fourth, I actually like the workbook. Its a lot of "Draw a picture of you and a friend doing something that makes you laugh" or "Draw a picture of an animal doing something silly and unexpected. Write a few sentences about it" mixed in with identifying patterns, coloring pictures on page that start with the letter "m", etc... It takes dd about 45 minutes to do the whole week's worth of pages assigned and she actually gets really excited about doing it.

As a whole, I agree strongly with Kohn's POV. I'm only feeling content with my dd's current HW situation because of her teacher's approach. He has very reasonable and laid back expectations.

My best friend's daughter went to first grade last year and received 4 or 5 worksheets per night that were due the following day. They were AWFUL work sheets. The directions were hard to understand, the spaces left for the students to write were tiny, and they were incredibly time consuming. They could spend an hour or more per night doing homework. And they were letter graded! And the teacher would not allow any student who did not complete their homework to go to recess!!! Guess what? Her daughter hates school. At some point, she shut down, stopped paying attention and is now really, really struggling Talk about a way to absolutely kill the innate love of learning.

I also wanted to add that I actually am glad to have these discussions and answer questions (even rude ones, which yours was not) because it helps me solidify my opinions and thoughts on certain subjects. That is why I am on MDC:) I know that there will be far stronger dissent from people in the "real world" about everything from schooling to co-sleeping to discipline so civil discussion here really helps me learn to vocalize my opinions.

I agree..the guidelines are no more than 30 minutes for 1st and 2nd graders and I think the limit is an hour a day for older elementray schoolers. Is your dd in a gifted and talented program?

No, she's got a learning disorder that her teachers refused to acknowlege. I believe that she's got central auditory processing disorder. It's not common enough that when I had her tested the therapist even knew what it was. He did agree that she had "something" but didn't know what. When I handed him sheets about CAPD he said "well, it could be this but I don't know anything about it." He agreed that she definately did not have ADD, which CAPD is often diagnosed as. Her teachers kept insisting that she did have ADD and that I just needed to medicate her. Because I was unwilling to medicate her for something that I don't even think she has I guess it was my own damn fault that she was being kept in for not getting her work done quickly enough. In order for her to get the homework done, she needed 3 hours. Now, that may not have been the case for most of the other students, but it certainly was for my dd. She was given the same homework as the other students, she wasn't bringing home school work that hadn't been completed. The school work that she wasn't unable to complete in a "timely" manner was also reason for her to be kept in from recess, library, and music. Frankly, I don't think an 8yo should have to live up to those standards. I also don't think that my kindergartener should have been coming home on a daily basis with required homework.

My 1st grade dd has a workbook. When it was first sent home I groaned and rolled my eyes. I loathe busy work, which is how I generally view workbooks and worksheets. But, I actually wound up being okay with it for a few reasons. First, there are a number of sheets that are assigned each week on Monday and due the following Monday, which helps eliminate the disruptions in our evening family life or potential for conflicts that Kohn refers to since we don't have to concern ourselves with making time for it on a daily basis. Second, the teacher stressed that he never wants to hear that anyone is spending more than ten minutes per sheet and that if anyone regularly is, he will re-evaluate the amount of pages assigned. Third, the homework is not graded or corrected. The intention of the homework is to keep parents in tune with the focus of the classroom so it can be supported or re-inforced at home and to be one of many ways possible to alert the parents and the teacher if there are any areas that the child is really struggling with. Fourth, I actually like the workbook. Its a lot of "Draw a picture of you and a friend doing something that makes you laugh" or "Draw a picture of an animal doing something silly and unexpected. Write a few sentences about it" mixed in with identifying patterns, coloring pictures on page that start with the letter "m", etc... It takes dd about 45 minutes to do the whole week's worth of pages assigned and she actually gets really excited about doing it.

As a whole, I agree strongly with Kohn's POV. I'm only feeling content with my dd's current HW situation because of her teacher's approach. He has very reasonable and laid back expectations.

My best friend's daughter went to first grade last year and received 4 or 5 worksheets per night that were due the following day. They were AWFUL work sheets. The directions were hard to understand, the spaces left for the students to write were tiny, and they were incredibly time consuming. They could spend an hour or more per night doing homework. And they were letter graded! And the teacher would not allow any student who did not complete their homework to go to recess!!! Guess what? Her daughter hates school. At some point, she shut down, stopped paying attention and is now really, really struggling Talk about a way to absolutely kill the innate love of learning.

See, I could have totally gotten behind your dd's homework.

Your friends issues are another issue we had. Sometimes my dd would get worksheets that I didn't even understand. I'd read the directions over and over again and finally say "you know what, honey, I don't understand what this is asking you to do. You'll have to ask your teacher tomorrow." I tend to think of myself as a fairly intelligent person, but when I can't understand 3rd grade assignments there's a problem somewhere.

See, I could have totally gotten behind your dd's homework.

Your friends issues are another issue we had. Sometimes my dd would get worksheets that I didn't even understand. I'd read the directions over and over again and finally say "you know what, honey, I don't understand what this is asking you to do. You'll have to ask your teacher tomorrow." I tend to think of myself as a fairly intelligent person, but when I can't understand 3rd grade assignments there's a problem somewhere.

Yeah, my friend would show me the HW and we'd read it over and over and the two of us together could not understand it.

There were fill in the blank type sentences that would have a space this____small. What first grader can write that tiny? There were also math word problems wherein the wording was so nonsensical, you could not figure out what it was asking. It would be something like:

Tim had 28 cents. On Monday he gave 2 pennies to Jon. On Tuesday he gave 3 pennies to Sue. He gave them the same amounts the remainder of the week. How many cents did he have left on Sunday?

Huh? :dizzy: Did Tim continue to alternate everyday and does that include Sunday or did he give them those amounts both everyday the rest of the week? And are you seriously asking a 6 year old to figure it out?

Her dd would just look at it and get totally overwhelmed and just shut down. And then of course the teacher starts implying a learning disability. :irked:

I am totally against homework. The lesson taught should be covered during the time allotted and on the school's time, not my kids time at home.
We homeschool- and I don't intend on adding extra work outside of lesson time.
I started getting homework assignments in kindergarten (that I can remember) and once I got into grade school I rarely ever did the homework at home- I did it in class at the end of the lesson or in study halls.

I think it depends on the child and the situation. For instance, my DSS/14yo has special needs and is developmentally delayed. He is highly functioning, but needs lots of assistance and guidance. He is in a special day class, 12 students/3 teachers. The cirriculum is highly personalized, as per each child's IEP. It's been a great program for him. He gets homework each night, and it is age/level appropriate. He needs that repetition to learn spelling words, to remember that math formula, etc. If he slacks on his homework, we see a direct correlation in his retention of the information. So in our situation, it's an important part of his learning process.

But for some other children, I can see how it would be a complete waste of time. In general, I believe public schools push it way too much.

For full disclosure, I used to teach college math (you can boo and hiss now). I tend to believe that elementary schools students should get only a small amount of homework a day (30 minutes?) until they get quite a bit older. I am currently planning on homeschooling because I think too much time is spent in class and the time in class is broken up into choppy 1 hour bits. I would like for my daughter to study a subject until she is done or at a stopping point and then move on.

In a lot of traditional schools (middle/high maybe elementary), I think too much time is spent on the teacher "lecturing" and not enough hands-on time in class. The truth is, in math anyways, if a person does not have enough time working the problems on their own, they will not learn the material. Not very many people can watch someone else do a math problem and then solve a similar problem on a test without some practice. There are also problems with working on problems in class. There will always be a couple of people who need to go home and look at the problem from all sides and then it will "click" so really being forced to sit there and work problems is just not time effective.

Well, people are nagging at me to hurry up so let me just say, I hate the idea of being in school from 8-3:30 and then having additional work. The real problem, IMO is that school is used as childcare. I understand why this is the case and my daughter attends Montessori for 9 hours a week so I can work but I still think that keeping them away from home for that long is a problem. Adding homework on top of that is not the solution, I actually think that causes more problems when a child's entire day is their "job". The only possible solution I can think of is to have the birthing center equivalent of a school. -More comfortable for the child, have you seen how hospital-like classrooms can look?

For full disclosure, I used to teach college math (you can boo and hiss now). I tend to believe that elementary schools students should get only a small amount of homework a day (30 minutes?) until they get quite a bit older. I am currently planning on homeschooling because I think too much time is spent in class and the time in class is broken up into choppy 1 hour bits. I would like for my daughter to study a subject until she is done or at a stopping point and then move on.

In a lot of traditional schools (middle/high maybe elementary), I think too much time is spent on the teacher "lecturing" and not enough hands-on time in class. The truth is, in math anyways, if a person does not have enough time working the problems on their own, they will not learn the material. Not very many people can watch someone else do a math problem and then solve a similar problem on a test without some practice. There are also problems with working on problems in class. There will always be a couple of people who need to go home and look at the problem from all sides and then it will "click" so really being forced to sit there and work problems is just not time effective.

Well, people are nagging at me to hurry up so let me just say, I hate the idea of being in school from 8-3:30 and then having additional work. The real problem, IMO is that school is used as childcare. I understand why this is the case and my daughter attends Montessori for 9 hours a week so I can work but I still think that keeping them away from home for that long is a problem. Adding homework on top of that is not the solution, I actually think that causes more problems when a child's entire day is their "job". The only possible solution I can think of is to have the birthing center equivalent of a school. -More comfortable for the child, have you seen how hospital-like classrooms can look?

What you describe would be such a dreamy school! We are so fortunately to have a lot of public options where I live, but of course there's always room to improve.

Math may be an exception, but what I want/expect from my college courses is that the lecture expand upon and compliment the texts rather than reiterating them. High school and jr high spent a lot of time repeating what we should have read as homework, which was frustrating. I remember having homework in every subject most nights, but it was brief enough that I could do all but a couple of the daily tasks in study hall (I think it was 50 minutes.) Then I might have a class or two left, plus longer term projects. I remember my high school homework being meaningful and useful for learning.

And I love math, so no boos or hisses from me! I've considered teaching it some day.

What you describe would be such a dreamy school! We are so fortunately to have a lot of public options where I live, but of course there's always room to improve.

Math may be an exception, but what I want/expect from my college courses is that the lecture expand upon and compliment the texts rather than reiterating them. High school and jr high spent a lot of time repeating what we should have read as homework, which was frustrating. I remember having homework in every subject most nights, but it was brief enough that I could do all but a couple of the daily tasks in study hall (I think it was 50 minutes.) Then I might have a class or two left, plus longer term projects. I remember my high school homework being meaningful and useful for learning.

And I love math, so no boos or hisses from me! I've considered teaching it some day.

I always hated it when teachers read from the book too. I sit there thinking, "I can read, I don't need you to read to me." Math is not an exception, what I always did was go through an example similar (but not the same) as the ones in the book. You need to do a similar one because at some point, I will look into the room and see a half dozen confused looks on people's faces. Then I can go over a step in great detail to try and reduce the confusion. I don't do the exact same problem as the example in the book so the students can go home and work through the example if they wish.

ETA: The other reason I need to do similar problems is that there just aren't that many different kinds of math problems for each type.

I just got off the phone with a friend who teaches math at a Catholic high school. She said she gives 30 minutes of homework a day to the 9th graders (geometry) and 20 minutes to the 6th graders. They have an extra day to turn in the assignment if they need to and she said they don't abuse that policy.

Teaching college math is depressing. I actually loved the students but no matter how much time I put into helping them, most of them still failed. My last quarter, 15 out of 45 students showed up to the final (all of them passed except for 2) but that left 30 students I had to fail. -I got stuck teaching the weeder courses so some of the students realized they did not really want to go into nursing as bad as they thought. I was also paid worse then dirt. My pay did not cover my student loans. So I did what most of my friends did, quit and went into the private sector.

My daughter is 7, second grade.

NIGHTLY READING :thumb JOURNAL AND SIGN-OFF :irked::

I find it irksome that reading journal is assigned every single night that must be signed off on by me, turned in each morning, to verify that "we're doing it." Once a week, for the reading journal, yeah, I'll sign off, I can deal with that, but NIGHTLY sign-offs really get under my skin. In first grade, her teacher gave me all this grief about the importance of reading, implying it was "a problem area" and she might not be ready for the crushing weight of second grade. I just thought PLEASE. She's in FIRST GRADE! Let her come to LIKE it, then to LOVE it, and then she'll read faster.

WHEN SHE WAS TWO, SHE LET ME KNOW :dizzy::

I made her do the reading, but, it was torture, she didn't want to. She wanted me to read to her. I knew it was like when she was two. I'd gotten her one of those puzzles with the alphabet when she was BORN, and always put in her play space, so she could be brilliant. :wink But, she never EVER gave it the least bit of interest, except in sucking on the T and the J. Never even looked at it, and I was SO HOPING for a genius!

Then, one day, when she was maybe 2 and a half, I put her down to play, and started to niggle her to put the alphabet puzzle together. She had NEVER so much as put ONE letter in its place, and I was beginning to think, O no, she is NOT BRILLIANT! :irked: But, she gave me this look, this withering look, and she picked up each letter one by one and put them all in their places, bang, bang, bang, like "this is the thousandth time I have done this MOM!" I didn't even bother to make a big deal, like "wow, you did it!" I just looked at her, like, "who are you?" :lol

I never made her read a single word all summer. And this year, her reading has advanced quite nicely anyway. She's whizzing through her library books, loving it.

"BUSY" WORKSHEET HOMEWORK and OTHER PAPER:

I am totally annoyed by the REAMS of paper that come home, every night; the worksheets and the announcements and newsletters and by-laws and budget reports and JUNK mail, and I think I am going to start a pile and return it at the end of the year directly to the principal, or the superintendant.

WRITING AND ILLUSTRATIONS JOURNAL HOMEWORK::thumb

The only "homework" that I found to be wonderful was last year, after I transferred her from a school I was just hating, her new teacher had her writing a journal page, with an illustration. That, I loved. I loved her art, and it was good, although ALSO torturous at times, that she would have to really THINK of something to write a few sentences about, a little story. I never let her take it back to school, I always made a color copy of it and would sent THAT to school for the teacher to make her stars and happy faces on (ruin). My daughter's journal book is wonderful. AND, thank goodness I kept the originals: the teacher did not send home the class journal my daughter made, and I missed making copies of plenty of pages before I started doing that!

in the interest of full disclosure.... I'm a teacher (high school)

4 of my classes don't get homework b/c of the nature of the course (computers)

my 5th class DOES get homework on an occasional basis. I use homework as a way to re-inforce what we did in class. My class is lecture/open discussion format, it's very student led. We do plenty of creative based projects but we also have tests (have to have multiple way to test their understanding). The homework I give is very light, shouldn't take more than 15-20 minutes but it serves the important purpose of getting them to think on their own (and write). It's also a way for me to better guage their level of understanding...If everyone is struggling with the concept of Economic Indicators then I know I need to review it.

I always give them time in class, if they choose to make good use of their time, they won't have homework. If they choose to spend their time on something else then they choose to have homework.

Most of the time when I call parents about their child's grades they ask why I DON'T give more homework.... (honestly I HATE grading it, so why would I give myself MORE work unless I truly believed it was beneficial)

I believe there is a fine line between enriching through homework or frustrating through homework. Homework is always taken as a grade and it's always a continuation of what we discussed in class.... so yeah, I support the "idea" of homework, but (admittedly) sometimes the reality is less than ideal

Teaching college math is depressing. I actually loved the students but no matter how much time I put into helping them, most of them still failed. My last quarter, 15 out of 45 students showed up to the final (all of them passed except for 2) but that left 30 students I had to fail. -I got stuck teaching the weeder courses so some of the students realized they did not really want to go into nursing as bad as they thought. I was also paid worse then dirt. My pay did not cover my student loans. So I did what most of my friends did, quit and went into the private sector.

That's terrible! I couldn't believe the low standards my last college math class had. The instructor was very nice and helpful but I think in the end he had to make it possible for people to pass. I got an A but I don't think I should have. It was an online course so we mostly had to teach ourselves.

From high school math, I remember the teacher going through the steps in the chapters with us in class before assigning the homework for that chapter. It's different than "read this chapter about World War I and be prepared to discuss it."

I teach 6/7/8th grade English. I assign very little homework.
A weekly reading log.
Maybe something we didn't finish in class.
Occasionally, we have essays and papers which we work on in class but should be completed at home if not done in class.
Something may need to be colored (a map, a poster, not a good use of classtome).


I assume they all do their HW in front of the TV while talking on the phone so anything that requires brainwork needs to be done in the classroom. The HW I receive is a rush job, looks like it's been done on the bus that morning and isn't worth my time. I try to fill every minute of my class so we have no work left for home. I don't think kids practice skills at home. My own 11 yo son, a good student, rushes through his work. In the classroom, there is n't a rush to finish. If you finish early, you can read a book, that's it. At home, if you finish early, you can play computer, go to a friends house, watch TV, plaay with brother , skateboard. . . . so what kid is going to sit down and slowly, delibertly do his HW? Not my kid.

Ugh, I have a personal bias against homework. When I was in school, I performed well enough academically, but graded poorly in any class with a large amount of graded homework and notebooks that contributed a significant portion of the final grade. This carried through to college too. It's not that I wouldn't work at home, or feel that students never need to. I would read in advance to be prepared for class discussion, do math problems as I felt needed to be proficient, kept up with current events, occasional projects and papers - but an everynight grind of handed in graded work? It was my bane, lol. In school I always suspected largely weighted homework grades as a way of padding the grades of hardworking students who never did really absorb the material covered. My favorite classes were college math courses in which my final grade was based on 4 tests alone. Low maintence, work as I need to in order to feel proficient enough to perform well on tests (this was apparently a bane to students who don't test well.) Right now I have a HS age step daughter, who works hard, does her homework and tries to be a responsible student. So I don't make my homework opinions known and simply never ask her about it. She generally does it quite late (after she ought to be in bed, technically,) so it doesn't interfere with family time. Now, my daughter begins kindergarten next year, and I swear if she comes home with homework - the graded, have to turn in kind - I'll rebel. It does cut into family time and other activities, I feel it's only supplemental academically - something to be engaged in for special enrichment, preparation or reinforcement only as needed. Not having an everynight or graded aspect. My daughter is a smart girl. If the school day in elementary school wasn't enough time to learn and work on something, and she needs to bring something home for me to teach her in the form of homework, school is going to feel very pointless to me very quickly. So how does one approach a teacher and say "look, I don't feel homework ought to be a requirement, and I don't expect the completion of it to have any bearing on my daughter going to recess or passing the year?" I suspect that's not a conversation that would go well ;)

So how does one approach a teacher and say "look, I don't feel homework ought to be a requirement, and I don't expect the completion of it to have any bearing on my daughter going to recess or passing the year?" I suspect that's not a conversation that would go well ;)

Well, that's the question, isn't it? I talked with my daughter's teacher today about this issue (and we just changed schools today too); and she seemed to be fairly understanding. I said, "Sooo, where are you on homework? Because I'm not so into it." Erudite, n'est pas? But it seemed like a good opener, and the teacher said she didn't give any at all beyond reading with your parents for 10 minutes per night (which isn't something new to us, so I would probably just "sign off" without thinking or making sure). And, for the first couple of weeks, little slips of paper that say things like, "Ask your child what our special word of the day was today." or "Ask your child what game we played in recess." I guess that's ok, especially in comparison to what others here have described. She said by 2nd grade, there is usually a little more, but more like an occasional thing/project/etc, not every day.

I sure hope so!

So how does one approach a teacher and say "look, I don't feel homework ought to be a requirement, and I don't expect the completion of it to have any bearing on my daughter going to recess or passing the year?" I suspect that's not a conversation that would go well ;)

Probably not, because you're asking her to do something you're not willing to do yourself. If homework is a requirement (and sometimes the teacher has no control over that), then she can't just pass your kid becuase you don't believe in it. If she has it as a rule for all the other kids that they can't go to recess after X amount of non-turned in assignment, she can't in good conscience make an exception for your kid. You're expecting what you don't really have a right to.

Now, it's another thing to ask how much a factor homework is in passing the year or what punitive measures might be taken, and if it's then required saying "I don't feel homework ought to be a requirement, so please don't expect *me* to sign off or push it's completion." But saying things the other way is looking for an adversarial relationship, as well as shoving the responsibility for *your* decision onto her/him.

That being said, I fall squarely into the 'kid homework=kid responsibility' camp. I really don't care if my kids complete it or not. I can't even say that I really much care what their grades are either. I'll support them in ways that respect them of course (cheerfully helping when asked, offering advice when asked, getting them tutoring if they're struggling, ect.), but ultimately I'm not interested in turning it into a power struggle--or mitigating the natural consequences. I don't think it does kids a favor to learn that they should only complete things if mama is breathing down their neck--or that mama will make everything all better if they consciously decide to not meet some of the requirements of their class. If they've gone to the trouble to do something that needs my signing off, I'll do it, it's the least I could do. But if they choose not too, well, I'd rather not waste my time and theirs with pointless power struggles.

I wouldn't expect a public school to bend to my whim though. Maybe if I hired a private teacher, I would. But I accept that if I decide to send my kid to a given classroom, either I respect the teacher's right to make his/her rules (and expect that they respect my right to parent how I see fit), or I pull my kid out, or I get prepared to work my butt off advocating for a systemic rule change.

I think you can be blunt with a teacher that you're not really going to enforce their rules in your home, without being rude. I just don't think it's fair to then in the same breath demand that s/he should respect your home policies in their classroom. I think a lot of people react to the unexpected with hostility or anger, but there are many others who will be glad that you were upfront and didn't lie to them about it or be passive-aggressive.

I am a teacher, though sahm now. A while back, I started a whole thread (http://www.mothering.com/discussions/showthread.php?t=410016) on this topic in learning at school. I do not think kids should have to do homework because:


it is a waste of paper
it is a waste of precious family time
it does not teach the students anything - they either need help with it or it is too easy.
unless it is a project, which I love, but those typically need a lot of parent help
other than reading, I disapprove of homework
I think parents should be able to say no to homework but I do realize that some schools/districts require it
however, it is not such a big deal in elementary school, so if kids did not do it it would not affect overall grades that much
in middle school and high school, homework is much more meaningful and therefore necessary
but in elementary school, homework is often too much


As a parent, you can ask the teacher, the principal, the superintendent, and pta president, and the school board to stop requiring homework. Be the change you want to see - isn't that how the saying goes?

I just got my copy of Kohn's book and am excited to start reading it when I finish my book club book. I totally agree with it on principal!

(and sometimes the teacher has no control over that)



Yes, this is my situation as a teacher. We have a district-wide policy stating the number of minutes of homework to be given at each grade level. For 4th graders (my students) the requirement is 40-60 minutes nightly. I tend to give more like 35 ish...at the most. But I am known for giving less hw than other teachers at my grade level.

Yes, this is my situation as a teacher. We have a district-wide policy stating the number of minutes of homework to be given at each grade level. For 4th graders (my students) the requirement is 40-60 minutes nightly. I tend to give more like 35 ish...at the most. But I am known for giving less hw than other teachers at my grade level.

I really don't grasp what constructive purpose district policies like this serve, so I'm not really sure what I'm up against in pursuing change at the district level. How the heck did we get to these policies? What is the majority position on homework exactly, and the data to back up that position? And as for choice.. how much choice do less financially stable working mamas have when it comes to what district and classroom their children end up in.. but I guess that's probably rhetorical.

Yes, this is my situation as a teacher. We have a district-wide policy stating the number of minutes of homework to be given at each grade level. For 4th graders (my students) the requirement is 40-60 minutes nightly. I tend to give more like 35 ish...at the most. But I am known for giving less hw than other teachers at my grade level.

Interesting. Some thing that might be looked into. There is a secret at my district. While we have this "requirement" of 30 minutes per night per class, the secret is that district guidlines also say that HW cannot count for more than 10% of the grade. This is silly. Students can choose to not do HW and still get a 90% in the class. What's the point of doing all that work if it doesn't affect your grade much? The thing is, NO teacher counts HW as only 10 percent of grade. I just wen to dss's back to school night, most teachers said HW was 25% of grade. I know that if any parent had a problem with it, complained, that the grades would have to be changed. At my school, we are taking a wait-and-see approach. Most teachers say that HW is 25% of grade, but we all know that if a parent complains, that has to change. The parents don't k now. They could find out, but no one's telling them.

Our district has realized that HW is unequal playing field with some kids getting help from parents and tutors and others completely on their own, so how can we hold them to the same standard? Work done in the classroom, and test, and believed to be a more accurate measure of kids' progress. Check out your district and see if they have a policy.

And as for choice.. how much choice do less financially stable working mamas have when it comes to what district and classroom their children end up in.. but I guess that's probably rhetorical.

Since I'm reading this as implying as being mildly economical-class biased, I'd say that it really depends on the district/state.

My experience as an advocate has been that if you are willing to be a thorn in the side of the principal over a teacher, you can achieve a classroom switch (just don't expect folks to be happy with you. Though I'd say that's their problem. :D). Some districts have a policy that you can apply for a transfer of *schools* within the district if there's enough space (you may or may not be able to have access to transportation though, which is the kicker.)

However, we can go around and about about who has it easier all day, but it still won't change the fact that it's more likely than not that the teacher can't and won't make an exception for just one kid in their class. And parents who don't have the time or access to transportation to go be the thorn in the supervisor's side are kind of stuck at the whims of the district or classroom policies about homework anyway.

Which is why i think it's far more valuable to figure out what your *real* options are (that don't depend on another person's cooperation that you're unlikely to get). How will I handle if the school wants to keep my kid back? Is an 'alternative' school acceptable to me? Can I still honor my values (I hate busywork) while explaining to my kid that in our crazy society sometimes you have to do some really really REALLY stupid inane things and jump through hoops? Could I get together with a group of like minded folks and minimize the impact of 'crazy society'? Can we think of how to minimize the stress to our family while still doing the bare minimums?

Those aren't such bad skills for your kid to pick up. In fact, I'd say that YOU are far more likely to have your kiddo learn them than people who just complacently follow every rule that's set before them. There's tradeoffs for everything, and unfortuantely most of us are in the position where we can't really afford the full spectrum of choices. In my family, for example, no way in hell can we afford a private school. It just ain't going to happen. We're open to homeschooling, of course, but we only have two options. That or the public schools. Some folks have one choice (HSing if they're out in the bush, or PSing if a parent can't be home with the kid). Some folks have every option imaginable. You have to do what you can with what you've got. I was just trying to make the point that it's probably best to communicate your strong sense of what you're willing/able to do at home, without pushing it off on the other person--because you cannot control what they do, and it seems like when we set outselves up for disappointment or stress by expecting another person to go along with what we want or assuming they'll be combative right from the start.

You never know until you ask. I wouldn't assume that because you're not Melinda Gates you have no options. But you might not. Still better to decide the things you have to decide, and then figure out how to roll with the rest. At least in my opinion.

Yes, this is my situation as a teacher. We have a district-wide policy stating the number of minutes of homework to be given at each grade level. For 4th graders (my students) the requirement is 40-60 minutes nightly. I tend to give more like 35 ish...at the most. But I am known for giving less hw than other teachers at my grade level.

I think as a teacher I would be pretty annoyed at how nebulous that requirement is. Especially since what takes one kid 2 hours can take another kid 30 minutes! Do you think this is kind of an extension of 'teaching to the test'? I think that phrase is condescending, but I can't really think of another phrase. :/ Since the public and the government tends to judge schools based on test scores, do you think that's kind of filtered down to wanting to create a formula for outside of school work too?

So, instead of assigning a couple of questions about the reading assignment, or outlining what's to be quizzed later on and letting students set their own time/confidence level, you have people breathing down your neck to set a quantifiable time?

Bleah. Does what I'm asking even make sense? :/

And would people be happier with 'qualitative' guidlines for homework, rather than numbers to be checked off?

Personally, I would much rather sign off on 'Sally should be ready to do simple multiplication problems by the end of the week when we're having our test, there's quizzes in the back that are like what we'll be doing on pages 50-60)' than 'Sally has spent 1 hour every night on multiplication'.

More on this (I swiped it from Katie Allison Granju's blog):

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1376208,00.html
http://www.metropulse.com/dir_zine/dir_2003/1333/t_inloco.html

Interesting. Some thing that might be looked into. There is a secret at my district. While we have this "requirement" of 30 minutes per night per class, the secret is that district guidlines also say that HW cannot count for more than 10% of the grade. This is silly. Students can choose to not do HW and still get a 90% in the class. What's the point of doing all that work if it doesn't affect your grade much? The thing is, NO teacher counts HW as only 10 percent of grade. I just wen to dss's back to school night, most teachers said HW was 25% of grade. I know that if any parent had a problem with it, complained, that the grades would have to be changed. At my school, we are taking a wait-and-see approach. Most teachers say that HW is 25% of grade, but we all know that if a parent complains, that has to change. The parents don't k now. They could find out, but no one's telling them.

Well, we don't "grade" at my school. We have a continuum-type progress report, and we essentially "rate" students according to each state standard and district expectation. We can say a child is accomplished or advanced or capable or developing or emergent in each category. This is instead of letter grades. So I guess if the child did not do her homework, she would have a whole lot of "emergents" marked on her progress report, because she didn't demonstrate she could do those various things (there is a whole section of separate, homework related categories on the proggress report)...but if that didn't bother the parent, it sure wouldn't concern me!

I think as a teacher I would be pretty annoyed at how nebulous that requirement is. Especially since what takes one kid 2 hours can take another kid 30 minutes! Do you think this is kind of an extension of 'teaching to the test'? I think that phrase is condescending, but I can't really think of another phrase. :/ Since the public and the government tends to judge schools based on test scores, do you think that's kind of filtered down to wanting to create a formula for outside of school work too?


Well, to address one of your points...we are expllicitly told that no student is allowed to spend more than an hour per night on homeowork, so if a child is struggling and completes only one of four assignments before the hour expires, that child is to stop without doing any more because our district feels that a 10 year old spending more than an hour on hw is excessive. Along with that, if I am giving a Social Studies test on Friday and expect my students to study 30 minutes T, W, and Th, then I should only give 10-30 other minutes of homework those nights because studying counts as homework. I will try to address your other ?s later...need to get dinner ready for the children!

Well, we don't "grade" at my school. We have a continuum-type progress report, and we essentially "rate" students according to each state standard and district expectation. We can say a child is accomplished or advanced or capable or developing or emergent in each category. This is instead of letter grades. So I guess if the child did not do her homework, she would have a whole lot of "emergents" marked on her progress report, because she didn't demonstrate she could do those various things (there is a whole section of separate, homework related categories on the proggress report)...but if that didn't bother the parent, it sure wouldn't concern me!

Our elemenarty schools have a standards based report cards. The kids are rated below/at/above grade level standard according to an assessment, but not according to HW. They have a separate grade for "completing HW."

Every school I've ever taught at has had a homework requirement, X minutes per grade type of thing. You can get around that with reading and a project. Much more meaningful and less paper wasted, less frustration, less time having to get help from parents or homework club. (I worked at a school where the other 5th grade teacher gave so much homework that she opened her classroom after school 2 times a week to help her students with her homework:dizzy: ). I gave a book report and required a reading log. One page of paper for the log for the whole month and the kids read for a minimum of 30 minutes a night or longer. Book reports were their choice and I gave them a long list of ideas. Books were varied by theme/genre per month.

Time-wasting impingement on family evenings.

I hated it, I hate it, there's WAY too much assigned, it's hard on kids, it turns teachers into marking machines, and I won't have it. Kids are in school for 6 hours a day or more - that's like a job. If there's out-of-class work to be done, let my kid come home early.

Just popping in to sub. I am really enjoying this conversation. Can't wait to get my hands on AK's new book! :)

(FWIW, I am in the "total waste of time/infringement" camp.)

My kids are too little (3 and nearly 1yr old) but this thread brought back a lot of memories of my childhood.

I hated busywork and often would skip it entirely - but I would do it in school (sometimes on the bus, sometimes right before class started, and sometimes, like in French class, during class).

Once the homework got sufficiently complex enough where I couldn't do this any more (around 9th grade), I was kind of sunk because by then I'd learned that "clever != hard work". The true intention of homework - reinforcing what we had learned that day - was lost on me because the work wasn't challenging enough in most cases. (I am not trying to be a snot - I know I wasn't the only one in my school like this).

So I never learned good study habits until I got to highschool - when I was lucky enough to go to a very good private school. I went from coasting without cracking a book to having to work HARD in order to get Bs and Cs. That, the good teachers, and the peer pressure of having hard working students around me meant that my homework had meaning.

My best friend had the similar experience I had, only she learned the hard way when she got to college. She never did any homework or studying throughout highschool and she still got the top grades at her school - not really an indication of her intelligence (though she is smart) but more an indictment of how bad her school was. So she got to a really good university not knowing how to actually do any work.

So in summary, I have no issue with homework IF it is actually achieving what it is meant to accomplish -i.e. teaching good research and study habits, reinforcing lessons learned that day, etc, - and not pointless busy work. Not sure how this would actually be managed, though.

another memory just jogged loose.

My 5th grade teacher got mad at us one day and assigned us the homework assignment of writing out our spelling words 5 times each (there were 20 words total). He was shocked when we all scored much higher on the weekly spelling text - and of course, we were then assigned copying out the spelling words every week for the rest of the year.

There are some things that just require memorization. Spelling, basic multiplication, etc. Homework may be dull, but it is a much better use of the teacher's time to assign memorization for homework (esp. when the school day is only 5 hours long).

My 2 cents.

another memory just jogged loose.

My 5th grade teacher got mad at us one day and assigned us the homework assignment of writing out our spelling words 5 times each (there were 20 words total). He was shocked when we all scored much higher on the weekly spelling text - and of course, we were then assigned copying out the spelling words every week for the rest of the year.

There are some things that just require memorization. Spelling, basic multiplication, etc. Homework may be dull, but it is a much better use of the teacher's time to assign memorization for homework (esp. when the school day is only 5 hours long).

My 2 cents.

I had to do that as young as 2nd grade, and to be honest, I don't think it's helpful. I think that simply memorizing words out of context is a fairly useless task - I really believe that you become a good speller by reading. When you read, you not only take in the spelling of the word, but also the definition, the context it is used in, and grammatical structure. And, on top of that, it fosters a joy for learning that copying out words simply does not.

FSM - Dh and I read/listened to your links and discussed this issue last night. We both agree that "rote memorization," as AK calls it, and busywork, do pretty much nothing but kill a child's interest in learning.

I have no problem with reading and research papers/projects as homework.

I suppose what this really speaks to is the larger fact that I think U.S. schools are too focused on memorization and isolated facts than teaching concepts, correlations, and the process of learning.

I haven't read everything here, but I did skim the AK article. I tend to think homework is generally overrated, and have to agree that there is a vast difference between busy work vs. qualitative kind of work. However, I think something missing in the interview is the fact that what's emphasized in school (homework, football, tapping away at computers, whatever) is generally not happening in a vaccuum - it's a reflection and an extension of what's deemed important, or at least given lip service as being important, in our society. If kids are getting more homework at younger ages, I think that's probably because our society and parents often equate doing more, and doing it earlier, as the road to (economic) success and personal satisfaction.

I also think that overall, particulary with higher income and higher ed families, there's definitely a trend toward making sure our children are constantly "stimulated" and "challenged," which goes beyond homework. There's a little girl down the street from us that my daughter used to play with, who's involved in Girl Scouts, T-ball, ballet, tap dance, organized play-dates and full-time kindergarten - and that's just the stuff I know about. She's 5 years old, for heaven's sake! She seems like a different person to me now, much more quiet and pensive. I think she is simply over-scheduled.

My little girl is only 3, so I can only relate my own experience about homework here.

I went to public elementary school in the mid-70s, and I honestly don't remember having any homework. There are a couple of exceptions that I can recall: I remember that I was supposed to be steadily working on some incredibly boring workbook in the second grade, which I couldn't bring myself to bother with at the time. I think I only remember it because I was stressed out about what my teacher would have to say about me not doing it (she didn't like me). Then later on, I think in the third grade, I remember doing an independent-type research project on fishers, which I enjoyed a lot. So, either I didn't have any homework to speak of, or none of it made an impression on me enough either way (hate vs. love of homework).

Middle school was when I remember having homework, but I have a feeling I didn't have to do nearly as much as kids are expected to do these days. Things I remember enjoying: various science/math fair projects, writing a school play, writing and illustrating a children's story, continuing various art projects at home. I also agree with Odenata about spelling - reading is how I reinforced my ability to spell and expand my vocabulary as opposed to copying definitions of words (which I also had to do). From my point of view, context is everything for the way I learn and actually remember what I've learned down the line.

I had to do that as young as 2nd grade, and to be honest, I don't think it's helpful. I think that simply memorizing words out of context is a fairly useless task - I really believe that you become a good speller by reading. When you read, you not only take in the spelling of the word, but also the definition, the context it is used in, and grammatical structure. And, on top of that, it fosters a joy for learning that copying out words simply does not.

I disagree - and while I hate rote memorization, it does have its place.

RE: spelling. I am a fabulous reader - and I have a fantastic vocabulary (in 5th grade, it was measured at 8th grade level - because that was the highest the test could measure).

Left to my own devices, I am a horrible speller - esp for vowel sounds. The english language is quirky - sometimes things are spelled with an a, other times with an i, etc. Also , if you read books from another english speaking country (my dad is Irish so many childhood books were from England), that further confounds things.

And unfortunately spelling is one of those markers of education. I will be received differently if I misspell words than if I don't (ditto good written grammerr).

the failure of new math also showed that while demonstrating the abstract concepts of math are important, it is equally important that you KNOW that 8*6=48. See, I don't know my times tables - I do know them up to 5 or so. But I have to derive them above that - why? because I have a terrible memory and because I was never forced to learn my times tables. It really does hinder my ability to do basic things like calculate the tip or taxes.

Siobhan

edited to correct spelling mistakes! : )

I'm against "fill in the worksheet" type homework for homework's sake, but some kinds of assignments make more sense for children to do on their own, outside of class -- essays and research papers, for instance. And I agree that the only way to internalize the multiplication tables and certain arithmetic functions, like long division, is to practice them. A lot. No matter how boring it might be.

My five year old has homework, and I must say that it seems ridiculous at this grade level.

I disagree - and while I hate rote memorization, it does have its place.

RE: spelling. I am a fabulous reader - and I have a fantastic vocabulary (in 5th grade, it was measured at 8th grade level - because that was the highest the test could measure).

Left to my own devices, I am a horrible speller - esp for vowel sounds. The english language is quirky - sometimes things are spelled with an a, other times with an i, etc. Also , if you read books from another english speaking country (my dad is Irish so many childhood books were from England), that further confounds things.

And unfortunately spelling is one of those markers of education. I will be received differently if I misspell words than if I don't (ditto good written grammerr).

the failure of new math also showed that while demonstrating the abstract concepts of math are important, it is equally important that you KNOW that 8*6=48. See, I don't know my times tables - I do know them up to 5 or so. But I have to derive them above that - why? because I have a terrible memory and because I was never forced to learn my times tables. It really does hinder my ability to do basic things like calculate the tip or taxes.

Siobhan

edited to correct spelling mistakes! : )

I can totally understand this. My oldest dd is extremely smart. She's in all the advanced classes in school. She'll even be able to use some of them as college credit and she's only a freshman. However, she is a horrid speller. It drives me crazy because she IS so smart and she's always been an avid reader. She learned to read at 4 because she HAD to know what everything said. When I see her spelling though I scratch my head wondering "why can't she spell???" Some people are just not good spellers for whatever reason but it is always seen as a sign of intelligence.

Moving this to Learning at School

...and killing the thread. Too bad, because I think that I'd like a broader perspective than just those with children currently in school.

AK points out that multiplication and spelling are about the only things that pro-drills teachers can point to for validation. However, I also never learned my multiplication tables beyond the 5s despite years of drilling, and I don't consider it to have harmed me in any way whatsoever. You learn to estimate, which is a far more useful skill. Multiplication tables just didn't interest me. My brain space was done used up for other pursuits...like the cast of Star Trek for the entire run length...err...um...

I feel the same about spelling. I learned spelling the way Odenata did - from reading fluently. I was a regional spelling bee winner many times. (whoo-hoo. nyar. yes, you can mail my nerd diploma to 1244 Wistful Lane)

Wende, I don't think spelling has anything to do with smarts. In the USA, we really vaunt it above almost all other skills as proof of intelligence (i.e. scripps spelling bee, spelling prodigies, etc). A genius with poor spelling abilities is what spellcheck was designed for...and probably designed by...

Ditto fsm - I agree with all your above points. Ever wonder how many friends those spelling champs have? I warrant that it is not a lot. It takes a lot of time to study for those spelling bees and it is not something that is done by groups on the playground. It is done at home, in the library, off to the side of the playground. It is not a group effort . It makes me sad to see the photos of the spelling champs because I am sure they do not have a lot of friends. Personally, I hope my child is average (well maybe a bit above) because I want her to have a happy life not an academically successful one. If she gets good grades, good. If she gets mediocre grades but has tons of friends and is doing great in other activities, ok. I want her to be happy and there are many ways to do that. School success does not factor into that equation very much, I am afraid. I was a popular person to sit next to in high school because it meant you could copy off my tests (I usually got 100% in all subjects). But those copiers were not interested in being my friend.

I hope this thread does not end. It has been interesting. FSM - maybe you could post in books and link here?

Hey! I had plenty of friends. We all sat around with our dictionaries at the playground, coke-bottle glasses at the tips of our noses, snorting at each other's jokes. Ok, so maybe they were invisible to others, but since when are invisible friends not people too?

Oh wait...

J/K.

Did you finish the book, boongirl? We can make a post in books, but I'm not sure how many people read it. People post about his other book in GD and childhood boards...

I have just started reading it. Can't get past my own quote! :lol :lol Just kidding, but I am in the first chapter still. I keep staying up too late posting here.

I am going to spam the other forums and send some interested parties here.

4 minutes and I spammed 3 forums.

:lurk:
Putting an arrow on this one so I can come back to it later.

My oldest gets totally stressed by homework and what should take 20 minutes ends up taking up all time available until I do the homework step-by-step with him.

If left to his own devices without access to TV or computer games, he will read and draw send his grandparents email or play some role-playing game with his brother. Homework for him is just a self-esteem bashing counter-productive activity.

He's gotten a little better and can do math or worksheet homework quickly and easily, but as soon as it is writing paragraphs and essays we are back to the wheel spinning pardigm.

My younger son, comes in sits down and finishes the homework in 15 minutes feels smart and great about it, and moves on to the next activity. For him, it's no big deal.

I think there is some value in being able to finish an assignment on your own even if it not what you would chose to do or even enjoy. But when you need an adult to do most of it to get through it, then I think it is counter-productive. It stresses him out more to not complete it then to get alot of help with it, so for now I help him through it.

Okay, full disclosure: I am a teacher. :duck:

I also assign homework. In my upper-level, upper-ability class, I assign it 3-4 times/week.

However, I do have some criteria for homework that I think are relevant here:

1. It's got to be either a followup of something we've already done in class, OR

2. A preparation for something we will do in class and we must follow up on it.

3. It also should not be excessive. I believe there's definitely a rate of diminishing returns as far as homework goes: seven problems may be fine; seventeen is NOT better.

I think that when homework is not a fundamental outgrowth of some element of the class -- that is, when it's simply busywork -- that it IS absurd and is a problem. Often, though, I'll assign it basically so that we'll have an automatic jumping-off point for our discussion or work the next day, kind've like an open link in a chain.

I think that homework should be a natural extension of the classroom. It should be a time for the child/young adult to use the information given and expand his/her knowledge of it. Busy work can be accomplished in a hundred different ways. I am for meaningful homework, but I understand the rationale behind repetition... it is the mother of learning, you know. :wink

That being said... dh grew up in and his entire family live in Turkey and I like how they approach homework. It gives the kids a chance to take what they learn and learn more about it, appy it, and manipulate it. My one niece is the equivalent of a junior in high school. She comes home at 4:00 and works on homework every weeknight about 6 hours. She gets up Saturday morning and works until afternoon. But what she studies is very complicated and requires that amount of studying.

I'm truly amazed by what she knows. Fluent in 4 languages, learning the calculus that my dh teaches his college students... she knows more now as a 17 year old, than I knew as a college graduate. And she can apply it!!

I see how much homework she has and how much she knows, understands, and uses in her daily life, and I just have to say... I like homework. (Then again, I've always loved homework because I love to learn... homework was just an excuse to learn some more... I even loved the repetitive stuff.)

:lurk:

I guess I am a little more nuanced on it.

In general:
I don't believe in busy work and that is what most homework is.
I don't believe in stealing time from a family when their child is at school for so many hours already.
I do believe that alot of children are busy doing very useful STUFF TO THEM at home on their own.
I do believe that some homework can be useful ei: studying for a test, project based assignment.


The part I like least about homework is it sets a precident for later in life when the child is grown up. After going through 12-16 years of homework, the habit has been formed to bring work home from your job. It interfers with family life. It makes it impossible to relax. It makes it hard to get ahead in your job if everyone is bring work home. It makes us forever slaves even in our "off-time". :( Or am I being too cynical.

I don't think kids practice skills at home... My own 11 yo son, a good student, rushes through his work. In the classroom, there is n't a rush to finish. If you finish early, you can read a book, that's it. At home, if you finish early, you can play computer, go to a friends house, watch TV, plaay with brother , skateboard. . . . so what kid is going to sit down and slowly, delibertly do his HW? Not my kid.

Rolling up sleeves.

What is wrong with those things? It sounds to me like while he may not be "practicing skills" from school, he is definitly practicing awesome life skills.