I was in the grocery store last night with some non-parent girlfriends, getting things for a birthday party. Behind us in the line was a woman, wearing scrubs like she worked for a hospital or something. I glanced at the groceries she was unloading....10 cans of similac formula, about 20 cans of babyfood and a box of rice cereal, followed by 2 packages of disposable diapers. Now, I use disposables :duck: , but everything else there I was thinking wow...I'm so glad that I don't have to do that. So much junk, so much money wasted. I mentioned as much to my friend, who rolled her eyes and said "shes a working mom...jeez give it a rest!" And maybe I should. But seeing someone pay so much money for something so inferior is never a fun thing.

The working moms in my family all nursed, but ....

Be glad for yourself and let it go. It's her problem after all, and I suppose her child's. OTOH, for all you know, she couldn't nurse for any number physical/medical reasons, or did for as long as she could. Be happy that you don't have to deal with those either, eh.

ETA: Or her baby was adopted. Or she was shopping for someone.

That could have been me ....putting together my donation for the local women's shelter.

About every 6 months I donate cans of formula, baby food, wipes, spozzies, toilet paper, paper towels etc for the "family in crisis" center in my town. They support Moms with children who are either in crisis or who are in transitions from shelters to housing. Yes it would be great to say they all could/would breast feed, make their own baby food and cloth diaper but when you are on the run or have been living on the street, often with addictions, I am just glad the babies have something to eat and something warm to wear. So easy to judge....

I guess that did come out kinda bratty. I guess all I was saying was wow, I'm really glad that, in addition to everything else, I don't have to do all that stuff, buy all that stuff, etc. I wasn't really judging the woman so much as kinda awestruck at the amount of products. I guess I'm sheltered and don't notice what other people buy very often!!

I was in the grocery store last night with some non-parent girlfriends, getting things for a birthday party. Behind us in the line was a woman, wearing scrubs like she worked for a hospital or something. I glanced at the groceries she was unloading....10 cans of similac formula, about 20 cans of babyfood and a box of rice cereal, followed by 2 packages of disposable diapers. Now, I use disposables :duck: , but everything else there I was thinking wow...I'm so glad that I don't have to do that. So much junk, so much money wasted. I mentioned as much to my friend, who rolled her eyes and said "shes a working mom...jeez give it a rest!" And maybe I should. But seeing someone pay so much money for something so inferior is never a fun thing.

I'm a working mom...who also wears scrubs :lol and I nursed my kids for a long time, what some would say and "extended" time. Not saying that the woman in line behind you didn't have a medical reason for buying formula, or whatever, but your friend needs to know (for when she has kids) that working moms can and do breastfeed everyday!

It sounds like she might have been doing her WIC shopping for the month -- WIC gives out canned formula, baby juices, rice cereal etc.

I always try to temper my thoughts by thinking she has an adopted baby or something... lol

it does stink to see so much money spent on things that in many cases the family could really use for other things... I wish moms had better support for working and breastfeeding. It can often be done with lots of education and resouces. My sister nursed past a year with her boys while working full time.

It's another sign that we need to get out there and make sure that our legislators know these things are important to us. Imagine what a difference it would make if during a job interview the employer was like "and don't worry about having to pump, you'll have the breaks you need and we've got a great space set up with comfy chairs and a fridge for you too..."

I think it's totally natural to see that and then think, "It could be so much easier if only..." Don't beat yourself up.

I think that kind of stuff all the time. I do, then, make up stories about them to make it better for me to see it, though. :lol

For instance: what if she had just gotten custody of her ex-lover's twin newborns after s/he was abducted by aliens while watching reruns of West Wing.

Kidding.

Every time I pass the baby aisle in the store (on the way to elsewhere) I think, look! A whole aisle of stuff I don't need to buy! Yay! :)

I don't consider that judgemental (Oh, and by the by, I'm a working mom... that has nothing to do with it).

Julia

I've never thought about this before, but you know those calculators that help women decide if they can afford to stay at home? It would really effect things if they added formula to the cost of working.

No tomatos! :duck: I KNOW working women can breastfeed! But I'd guess that it's easier for working women to ff, and therefore probably more likely for the average working women to ff. We also know that not all working ladies are able to pump (bosses, bad conditions, etc). :gloomy: :irked:

I would thinking being a working mom would be MORE of a reason to lay off so much inferior junk if at all possible. She'd have more time to spend with her babe if she didn't have to work all the time to pay for that crap. I'd shoot myself if I were forced to waste hard earned money on something so inferior. lol But, then again, I did quit my job because my supply dipped too low to supply DS with enough pumped milk.

:duck:

No tomatos! :duck: I KNOW working women can breastfeed! But I'd guess that it's easier for working women to ff, and therefore probably more likely for the average working women to ff. We also know that not all working ladies are able to pump (bosses, bad conditions, etc). :gloomy: :irked:

Yes, but you can always do both. 10 cans of formula doesn't sound like she's doing both. When my supply dropped and he was getting formula during the day before I quit, we only went through like one can the whole time because he got my milk for most of his feedings.

Yes, working moms can breastfeed, and many do which I am really :bow about. I'd like to think I'd be able to do that too, but it is so much more work than just sitting home and popping a boob out. Same for women who manage to nurse several children at once. Its so great!:thumb I myself gave my son some formula here and there (first child) when I was working part time, but I never needed more than a can at a time. I agree with PP that that many cans seems like shes exclusively ff.

This pregnancy, I've been amazed at how unnecessary so much baby stuff is...first time moms rarely know that, but the 3rd time around I finally get it and realize that all I need is the baby, some clothes and diapers and I'm set!

My dh and I left Costco once and he was mulling over the (expensive) bill. He determined the problem was the disposable diapers ($30 for 150.) I told him "Just be happy we don't do these full time!" and he saw the light. Then I told him "Next time we're here, look at formula and just be happy we never have to buy that stuff (barring any problems that might arise in future kids!)" He has thanked me every month while doing bills since.

Hey, I'm a working mom, I breastfeed and pump, I do EC with my babe and she wears cloth diapers as a back up and while we're away (babysitter doesn't do EC with her). So while yes I do give working mom's a break, it is totally possible to do all the "crunchy" things while working full time.

And I am extremely glad I don't have to buy all that extra stuff!

Just the other day I was in Ikea at the cafe and they have two flavors of jarred baby food (btw I didn't buy any.) One of the flavors was banana, and I just thought how is it that most women don't realize all you need to have fresh banana baby food is a banana, a bowl, and a fork to mash it with. It really can be frustrating to watch people spend hard earned money on something so dumb. So many women just don't realize the waste.

All that said I don't feel like they are bad just very mislead. Like we were when we first brought DS home and kept buying A+D ointment for him before we realized that it was made from industrial waste and we could put olive oil on him instead for a small fraction of the price.

When you see this kind of thing just be sad at how brainwashed american parents are.

first time moms rarely know that, but the 3rd time around I finally get it and realize that all I need is the baby, some clothes and diapers and I'm set!

When you see this kind of thing just be sad at how brainwashed american parents are.

And I am extremely glad I don't have to buy all that extra stuff!

Quoting several of you lovely mamas here!

Now that ds is seven months old and I'm settling into this whole mothering thing :love , I understand all of the above quotes!

I really didn't NEED a shower (although I still appreciated it!) Other than a few clothes and the cloth diapers I received (thanks, mom!) I don't need any of it! Babies don't actually have to be so expensive! I could have saved a fortune. I could have avoided all trips to BRU. I also love it that I never need a thing off of the baby aisle at the grocery store. And to think...I used to wander down that aisle and get all misty eyed hoping for the day I'd need that aisle! :lol

I also love the added benefit that if something happens and I'm away from home for longer than expected, my baby will be fine. He can nap in my wrap, and nurse and everything is fine. So if I lock myself out of the house, no need to break a window! We'll be fine. :thumb

Kellymom has a calculator...

http://www.kellymom.com/bf/start/prepare/bfcostbenefits.html

Sorry, just was skimming thru and the post about costs going back to work caught my eye.

And yeah, there's a ton of things we didn't need to buy... so I hope there will be a next time to see if I can get it a little better(-; At least I'll be all set with cloth dipes and breastfeeding amenities(-;

Jessica

OP: I get where you are coming from. It can be very frusterating to see such waste of money, especially when the woman is probably working her arse off to pay the bills. You think "Dang, you could save yourself a bundle just by nursing and having a decent pump." If she did work for a hospital they are pretty good about letting staff pump. (I am a nurse and never had trouble pumping at any of my jobs and I have worked ICU and ER).
I do chuckle at the baby food it wasn't until I had my third child that I realized I didn't need to by that junk (even the nice organic stuff). I was at the store once getting TP which was in the same isle as baby food and stuff and this dad comes up to me and asks which brand is best... I said "Oh the stuff I make myself" he rolled his eyes and walked away. :lol
I think some of the posters here need to chill. She was just lamenting.
BTW everyone makes a judgement, that is how you decide to do or not do something. It is ok too see something and think "Wow that is messed up" or whatever, you don't nessecarly have to say anything out loud. I would think out of all the places on the internet coming to Mothering to lament about something like that would be OK.
Maybe that mom was picking up a bunch of stuff to drop off at the shelter. Maybe she adopted a baby (although she may need the formula she doesn't need the baby food.), maybe she is picking it up for a friend or friends. BUT more than likely it was for her family. Which doesn't make her evil, it is sad though. It is sad that maybe she didn't get the support she needed to bf or that she has been brainwashed to some extent about "needing" jared baby food (I was), or that she can't use cloth because of the day care her baby goes too. So it is OK to say "bummer" it is OK to wish it could be different.

H

I have to agree with your friend. In the end, being that judgmental of a complete stranger is far worse than giving your child jarred baby food, no?

HappyApple,

Welcome to MDC, and the Lactivism Forum!!!

Jessica

Well I am going to have to disagree. Having a judgement and not voicing said judgement to the person is not any worse than that woman giving formula to her baby. The op NEVER SAID TO THE WOMAN... you suck, or what is the matter with you or whatever, she was shocked and thought "Glad that aint me".
It is OK to have a judgement about something, that is how we decide if we are going to do A, B or C. If we like something or not. That is how you pick the food you like, or the clothes you wear or the friends you have or the mate you choose. It is also how you decide how to parent and what is important to you. That doesn't mean you go around dising people or being disrepectful, which the OP was not doing. She came here to say how she felt about something, voiced an opinion in a "safe" environment, expecting maybe a bit of support considering this is the lactivism thread on Mothering of all places. She didn't ask how to humiliate people or same ffers. She was just comment on something she saw and a judgement she made. Probably expecting that here she could actually have that thought and not be told she is wrong.

H

Mamaofthree... totally agree with you and I'll add that the OP also came willing to learn and question her judgement (imo) that was how I interpreted her post-- therefore why I totally found her statements appropriate.

It is different when people tell someone directly than when you have a conversation about something with a friend, partner, dh.

Her friend said 'lay off the woman she's working" (or similar) and op came her to post can get some perspectives. But she included her first reaction.

I understand that we need to be respectful on MDC, but geez lately, I feel like on this forum we have to be so darn careful of how we type, feel, think that it is just unnatural because our honest reaction to some things has to be pc'ed up first. And this is lactavism but sometimes it doesn't feel that way!

Jessica

BTW, Casey did you mean baby shower or bath/shower. I just re-read your post and thinking of it as a bath/shower has me cracking up.

For example, today, I didn't need a shower. I would have LOVED one, but ds needed the extra time with me. And I'm pretty darn close to the shower being a need- just hoping I don't actually stink.

My son's 2 1/2 years and I'm still learning all the things I 'don't need' obviously, so this is a nice reminder and makes me feel better about not getting my shower in, again, this morning!

LOL!

Jessica

Thank you. I have been feeling that way too lately. It makes me sad.
You can't always sensor your feelings or gut reactions to everything you see or try not to judge a situation. It happens, that is part of being human, whether you want to admit it or not. That is how you decide to go into the scary alley or not, do you trust that guy over there or not, do you want to eat that weird green thing your MIL just offered you or not. AND how when your in the grocery check out and someone in front of you or behind you is unloading a cart full of cr*p. You don't say anything to them, but you think... sheesh there isn't a vegetable in that cart, or who drinks that much soda? Or man that looks nasty, or in the OP's case... I am glad I don't need to buy all that, and I feel bad for that woman who maybe didn't get what she needed. AND maybe had the same impression as her friend... that you can't have a good nursing relationship AND work outside the home. It is a shame, but I know people who think that. Some never even nurse for 6 weeks, because they don't see the point.
It would be great to get the info out there, even if you "can't" pump you can still bf when you are home. With my dd I had a crappy pump. I could maybe get 6-8 ounces out for a whole day of pumping, so we did suppliment but when I was home she was on the boob. Since then I have obtained a great pump and with my last two (I have 4 all together) I needed no formula what so ever. It is possible.
And the baby food thing... it is so ingrained into our society that babies "need" some sort of special food something extra gentle or whatever, but really it isn't true. Again I thought that way with my dd (dc#1), but as I had kids I realized you don't need special food for them. It is something we need to work on. It is such a big industry and people really lack confidence in themselves... I also think it goes back to only "poor" people BF and feed their babies "regular" food. If you have money you can get scientifically "prefect" formula and baby food.
Just my thoughts on it anyway.

H

In the past I've always been able to come here and say when I've been sad to have a friend give up on bfing, or when I see a newborn ffed, etc. So I thought that my random observation would be alright. I have to admit I felt awful when I read the initial reactions to my post. I never meant to pass judgment on anyone, and certainly didn't look at that woman with disdain or anything. I just looked at the stuff she had and thought my own little thoughts, none of which put her in a durogatory light. I'm sure she is a wonderful person, and does her best as a mother as we all do. In life we all make observations about different things, and have internal dialougues with ourselves to make sense of the world. I certainly never meant to offend anyone with this post.

Lydia I think stuff like that too when I see women doing the formula thing and as I posted before I give my own self enough grief over it by chastising myself on the spot. LOL The day I can't come here and vent "Non PC thoughts" is the day I withdraw my registration from this place. There has GOT to be one small place on this planet where we can let it out without censure. This is that place and it is supposed to be UNDERSTOOD when we let it out that we are venting. Not proclaiming an engraved in stone POV or pronouncing everlasting judgement on someone. Venting is just venting.

So how about this: let's make sure we don't turn this into one of the bazillion places online where you have to watch your words and your back when the topic is bf. We have enough of those.

I have to agree with your friend. In the end, being that judgmental of a complete stranger is far worse than giving your child jarred baby food, no?

Hmmm, calling someone judgmental seems a little judgmental itself, no?

Hmmm, calling someone judgmental seems a little judgmental itself, no?

Yeah, why can't we be tolerant of intolerance?

:down

So how about this: let's make sure we don't turn this into one of the bazillion places online where you have to watch your words and your back when the topic is bf. We have enough of those.

Yeah, that!

Jessica

I think advocating for breastfeeding awareness is fine, but sniping at a woman at the grocery counter, whether to her face or not, is just childish and really negates any point you may have to make about the benefits of breastfeeding. I think these attitudes turn women off who otherwise may be open to what you have to say. And, as a mother who does a little bit of everything, we definitely get the "judgment" whether you say it out loud or not.

Perhaps my response was judgmental, but I would much rather defend someone who was buying food for her child than someone who feels superior because he doesn't buy food for her child.

Mamas, agree or disagree, these are the rules for the forum:
Lactivism is breastfeeding activism. The main goal of Lactivism is creating change due to positive action. It can take many forms including working to help get laws enacted to support breastfeeding mothers and their children, educating mothers and mothers-to-be on the benefits of breastfeeding and the disadvantages of choosing formula and demonstrating against those who interfere with the nursing relationship between mother and child but organizing nurse-ins, letter writing campaigns, etc. These are only a few examples.

The purpose of the Lactivism forum on MDC is to provide a place for Lactivists to work together in creating these changes through positive action. Lactivists can support one another by sharing opportunities for lactivism and brainstorming solutions. We can share and celebrate in our successes, encourage one another in our efforts and look forward to more positive changes in the future.

Positive action occurs when we seek solutions and act for change. Rather than pointing our fingers at individuals and judging, Lactivists seek to create a systemic change that challenges the general acceptance of formula feeding and guides mothers towards breastfeeding as a cultural norm.

The Lactivism forum is not intended to be a place where MDCers to bash mothers who are formula feeding. It is understandable that lactivists become frustrated over the mainstream formula feeding culture. Criticizing ideas, campaigns, and actions that negatively impact breastfeeding are all acceptable forms of lactivism. Name calling, criticizing individuals, or attacking women who choose to formula feed as a group are not.
http://www.mothering.com/discussions/showthread.php?t=496798

and these are the rules for MDC:
#6 Posting to debate or criticize the MDC User Agreement, or to otherwise discuss the moderators, administrators, or their actions. Constructive criticism and questions for purposes of clarification may be sent through the Private Message feature or by email to the moderator or administrator.
#7 Posting to discuss the statements or behavior of a member or members on the board, or to criticize another discussion on the boards. Such issues should be directed to the moderator or administrator privately and not made a subject of discussion in a thread.
http://www.mothering.com/mdc/mdc_useragreement.html

Judgement all by itself isn't activism.

BSD: Oh please! Give me a break. When was the OP being intolerent? When did she say anything at all the the other woman at the store? In fact besides coming here to vent a bit, which apparently isn't tolerated at all, she was just voicing an opinion HERE, someplace where you think you can come to vent about formula. But apparently you can not. Formula has it's place, sure, but NOT the place our society gives it. I would say that Mothering would be place you could come to discuss that with out having to throw out all this PC crud to preface your statements. We all seem to know someone who needed to FF or even couldn't breastfeed for whatever reasons (lack of support, poor latch or abuse or breast reduction, yadayada...), but MOST women who are out in the world FFing CAN breastfeed. Let us just admit that on this board. If as many women in the USA could not actually breast feed for some physical reason then our species would have never survived. MOST women can BF. It is a fact. That does not minimize anyone who could not bf or it isn't a slam on them, it is just a fact. So most of the people we see at the store buying cases of formula could have at some point bf their child. And it is ok to think it is sad that that person didn't get the education they needed to bf. It isn't bad to come here and vent about it (at least I never thought it was bad) the OP NEVER said she wanted to know ways to humilate or shame FF. She was just commenting on what she saw, sort of stating that it was sad and at least she didn't have to buy all that stuff. Which I too am happy I don't have to waste money on. My kid gets the boob for milk, and mashed whatever we are eating (or use too, he is 2 years old now) and he gets comfy cloth on his butt.
That us remeber what we are talking about here and actually re-read the what the OP wrote and remeber she never said she wanted to shame or humilate anyone. She was just coming here to vent... maybe that was her mistake. HUGS to you mama!:hug

H

I found this past post my Cynthia Mosher on "vent"-type posts:
This brings to the surface an issue we have been discussing for awhile - vents and judgemental posting. In fact, and with Peggy's input, we did decide that we do not want to host threads that are merely vents and blanket judgements with no positive aim in posting other than to vent and attack individuals or groups, whether members or not. Our UA has long stated this but it is something we have not followed through with enforcing.

When someone has a problem or complaint about something occurring around them, the aim in bringing the discussion of the issue here should be to seek input about your opinion of the matter and advice on how to handle the situation so that you can hopefully bring about change. If you are powerless to effect change then perhaps the advice and discussion can help you personally deal with your feelings but without having to insult or attack others through venting.

I hope everyone can appreciate our reasoning and our desire for the tone and focus of discussions here. In discussion threads in general across MDC, one can, for example, express why they feel for a baby that is not offered the benefits and pleasures of breastfeeding by a mother who is entirely able to breastfeed. But we need not insult that mother, directly or indirectly, to validate our feelings and concerns.
http://www.mothering.com/discussions/showpost.php?p=5969815&postcount=2

I feel just like you...I am sure people around me get sick of it too. I just want everyone to have the satisfaction of bf. It's not that I love breastfeeding, I don't. I love knowing that I am doing the absolute best thing for my babe. I feel sorry for people who didn't have the support and knowledge or whatever to get that, and have to deal with knowing that they are giving their child something that is substandard. No wonder people get defensive!

What can I say, sophistry gets on my nerves.

I may be wrong, but my guess would be that there is a very good reason for why the "powers that be" on MDC don't want us posting judgemental rants: it breaks down the community bond. Sure some people get to bond over their shared condemnation of some other person, but there's always someone who is going to feel alienated. Then, the next time the alienated one is feeling low or needing advice on some topic, let's say breastfeeding, she's not going to feel like she can lean on the many people here who could help her. Because her experience of MDC has been "if you're not perfect (or at least pretending to be perfect) you're going to get mocked, flamed, and condemned."

There are plenty of reasons why the woman the store could have been buying formula, et al. None of them are any of our business. Just like it's none of anyone's business when my kid's going to get weaned.

Because her experience of MDC has been "if you're not perfect (or at least pretending to be perfect) you're going to get mocked, flamed, and condemned."



i think that your comment is true. But the negativity in these threads is not attracting ANYBODY. If its not the ffing moms getting flamed and condemned, its the women who have fought hard to take a strong and unrelenting stance against formula companies and there representation as formula as an "okay breastmilk replacement". It is not, its a pretty poor one. And a lot of people do not know.

So as lactivists, when reading this OP why not say, "thats sad people waste all that money. What can we do to increase peoples awareness to the abilities to pump and work?"

It seems that at a lactivist board, many of the people who jumped on the op's back because she was being "judgmental", could have maybe used all that negative energy to brainstorm about what they are going to do in THEIR neighborhood to educate and get involved.


The fact is that the op had a point. If people realized how much they spend, would it sway their decisions?

Maybe, but instead of our great minds coming together to think about maybe spreading that thought around, it gets snarky comments and "well, but, she coulda been...."

WE ALL ARE COMPLETELY AWARE OF WHAT REASONS SHE COULD HAVE HAD FOR FF.

What are we going to do to change those reasons that can be changed?????


I used to come here for ideas to inspire people that I came in contact with.
To hear about others encounters with ffing women so that when I heard a momma say, "My milk is not enough" I could say, "Yeah, Ive heard that from other women. That is often not true, this is how we can work on it".

I had NEVER EVEN THOUGHT about the AMOUNT of wasted money in comparison to money earned as discussed with the calculator found on kellymom. Why was that brought up?

Because the op topic warranted.

And now, I can use that as a tool to help other women.

and it wouldnt have occured unless this post had been posted.

So yes, I believe this op was useful, and maybe more positivity could have been brought up.

If maybe people were not arguing all the time.

I suppose it would do no good, at this point, to say I did not in any way snipe at a woman buying food for her child. Not to her, not to my friend. My comment to my friend was merely "what a pain in the neck it must be to have to buy a ton of completely seperate food for your baby." I fail to see how that is sniping. It was an observation, nothing more, nothing less.

One of the reasons I am able to stay at home with my children is because I DON'T buy all that stuff. And I think it would be a good thing to open peoples eyes up to the unnecessary expenditures of ff and buying baby food.

Everyone on this board has made their mind up about whether or not I am a horrible person. So this will be my last post.

It is really sad to me that in some people's zeal to protect some unnamed woman from some unbeknownst to her offense, that they have instead deeply hurt the feelings of a member of this forum and a fellow breastfeeding mama.

But I guess it is okay to viciously attack someone else just because they had thoughts you disagreed with. Sheesh.

You know, on the Vaccination forum, you can question why people vaccinate and on the Cicumcision forum, you can question those who circumcize, but on the Lactivism forum, you better not ever dare question why someone formula feeds. I guess that is why I am posting less and less here.

It is really sad to me that in some people's zeal to protect some unnamed woman from some unbeknownst to her offense, that they have instead deeply hurt the feelings of a member of this forum and a fellow breastfeeding mama.

But I guess it is okay to viciously attack someone else just because they had thoughts you disagreed with. Sheesh.

You know, on the Vaccination forum, you can question why people vaccinate and on the Cicumcision forum, you can question those who circumcize, but on the Lactivism forum, you better not ever dare question why someone formula feeds. I guess that is why I am posting less and less here.

:clap

I think with all the recent coverage in the media, people keep reacting to how angry and/ or militant lactivists are. Now they have succeeded in turning us against each other.
the "nice-polite-always-PC lactivist vs. the blunt-speak their mind-angry lactivist" battle is more conducive to the formula company's agenda than a formula ad!

:clap

I think with all the recent coverage in the media, people keep reacting to how angry and/ or militant lactivists are. Now they have succeeded in turning us against each other.
the "nice-polite-always-PC lactivist vs. the blunt-speak their mind-angry lactivist" battle is more conducive to the formula company's agenda than a formula ad!


:nod Divide and conquer...

Instead of closing this thread, I'm going to ask that people reread Annettemarie's posts above, and post accordingly. She's an excellent Granola Ambassador and I can't improve on what she's said here.