Ideal Public School...

[zipperump-a-zoomum]

I've been wondering this for a while now...

If you could change your local public school, what changes would you make?

or, to phrase it another way:

Imagine you've been given the position of dictator over said school. When you were finished, what would the ideal school look like?

How could schools best serve your kids?

[Icicle Spider]

I have one major problem with schools as they are today and that is that they are *compulsory*. The only other category of people in the USA today that are forced to do something whether they want to or not are convicts.

I am not saying that all children do not want to go to school, but as long as there is a single person (and children are people too!) in the classroom who being forced to attend, there will be unsolvable problems.

So to answer your question, the ideal school would be non-compulsory.

Pat

[daylily]

I'm pretty pleased with my children's school, but there are a few changes I'd make. First of all, I would make sure that no corporate advertising of any kind made its way into the classrooms. (See my threads: Corporate Influence in Public Schools and Should I be upset? in Activism & TAO for the full story on this.) Corporations see school children as a captive audience for their messages.

I'd also make sure there were good substitute teachers available. This sounds like a small thing, but my children's teachers are often off at workshops or meetings and the subs they get are very poor quality. They're more like babysitters. According to dd, one of the gym teachers is often called on to sub and he can't even read very well!

And the librarian, although a nice person, has this hang up about reading levels. First graders must check out first grade books, etc. When ds was younger, she wouldn't let him check out anything that she deemed "too hard" and now that he's in 4th grade, he's not allowed anything that's "too easy." It makes me crazy! Does she think his reading skills will regress if he reads a picture book once in a while?

And among the parents there's this townies vs yuppies mentality. I don't fit in with either group. The yuppies control the PTO and they're pretty condescending to the "townies." For example: before the monthly PTO programs, we (PTO board members) call families to remind them to come. I noticed that my list of people to call consisted of people in lower income neighborhoods. The programs are seen as "good for" the townies.

[zipperump-a-zoomum]

grrr...
that librarian thing would make me nutty.

what should schools teach?

[will-o-thewisp]

My dh works in the public school system, so I hear his commentary on this every day!! In his elem. school I have noted how stiff some of the teachers are!! Some of them are really "stuck inside the box!" but to turn the tables a little bit, I think parents should be preparing their children before they enter the school system!! I know that there are many, many problems with public ed. But parents have a responsibility as well. I heard of a 6 yr. old that didn't know what a book was. Kids who can't wipe their own bottoms. And many children whose parents don't even help/look over homework. I don't mean to sound uppity (too late?) but my mom taught me how to read, write, my numbers, and to do simple math before I went to school. What are people doing with their kids!?
Sorry, I didn't realize I needed to vent.:confused:
back to the subject-- MORE ART, MUSIC, MOVEMENT!!! And let's get rid of the soda machines. It is just sick!!! But ultimately, if I were in charge, I would beg for more community/parent involvement. And only have teachers who REALLY want to be there!:hippie

[Mommy22B]

Although my children are not in school yet we are already planning to homeschool them. So, my idea of a perfect public school would be to make it sort of homey. Dh and I have discussed this before and we think they should buy a bunch of those double wide trailers and have about 12 max in each with one teacher. We would do away with desks and things like that. THere would be lots of hands on learning. lots and lots of field trips. THe children would keep the place clean and cook for themselves, with help, and generally just live there like it was a second home. In our version of it there would be a mixing of ages, but I don't know how feesible that is. Another idea we had was to have one of these on each block in town and just have the neighborhood kids go to their littleschool. :-) Basically we are pretty much against the public school system and think everyone should homeschool. :)

[Sierra]

Just scooting this over to the Public Schooling forum...this is a great question, and I'm enjoying the answers so far!

:love Sierra

[Mallory]

My biggest problem with schools ( besides being compulsory) is how they handle kids who misbehave-usually talking out of turn, not paying attention, being rowdy, pushing, ect. The useual punishment is to make them sit out recess. At my cousins school there are painted boxes on the playground just for this. WHAT? I think what they really need is to go run around the playground. No wonder we have so many "hyperactive" kids.
I also think that the whole grading system is crazy. When I open my school (it is my dream:) ) All class will have kids of all ages in them. And everyone will have a very individualized lesson plan. In our schools today we just pretend that all 8 yo know the same thing and in reality most of the students are either confused or bored by the typical class lecture.
Mallory

[Alexander]

Sudbury Valley School is a Democratic School that is designed to be the model for future public schooling in the US.

http://www.sudval.org/

We must understand the new requirements of the Information Era, as opposed to those required of the Industrial Age from which the world, led by the United States has been emerging for the last 30+ years.

SVS addresses these needs. We ignore them at our colective western nation peril.

a

[lilypad]

I don't have kids in school yet, but was a teacher until this year. I would get rid of the EVIL Channel One program they have here in the States. It is a MANDATORY 15 min t.v. "news" show, in our district it was shown to middle & high school kids. Complete with commercials!!!:angry It is produced by ABC and if your district agrees to show it they provide the school with t.v's for each classroom and free cable. And I find it very eerie that at CH. One time the t.v. turns on by itself!!!! Horrible. What a waste of time. I could go on & on about this......I think it is awful!!! THe kids are this captive audience with commercials being blasted at them. And the worst of it is I noticed most of my kids didn't pay attention during the news segments but were glued to the screen during the commercials. I would have turned it off if I could but I couldn't! ARGHHHH! It gets me mad just typing about it!

[Alexander]

Wow. Unreal.

Very 1984.

Roll on SVS! Yeah!

a

[zipperump-a-zoomum]

Alexander and all:

I think i'm going to have a hard time describing the experience i've just had, but here goes.
I just followed your link to the sudbury valley school, and then followed that to others (there's one here in maryland!) and i feel a bit teary. I can't believe that this has been out there for so long and that i've never encountered it. (plus, i grew up near framingham?!)

let me explain- i got into teaching with the idea that the current system of schooling is a failure, and that it required change. perhaps somewhat arrogantly, i figured i'd do it, by working from within the system. i read holt and dewey during my master in ed program, but somehow never caught on or was told (maybe they didn't know?) that this was acutally being practiced somewhere. ANyway, i got into my first classroom (7th grade) and actually tried to implement some of these ideas. (What does everyone want to learn about?) I gave up after a couple of weeks because i was met, time and time again, with these blank stares and incredibly depressing answers (i don't want to learn. learning sucks. can we just go home?) I guess that at 7th grade all the natural curiosity and love of learning has been pretty well sucked out of one.
anyhow, i began to feel over the past few years that i was not only not helping to solve the problems i thought i saw, but actually was contributing to the problem. I've begun to conclude that the way to change education isn't through an evolution of the school system (has it evolved? at all? ever?) but that we are headed for a total collapse of public schooling before we get honest to goodness change.

(and then there's bush blabering about teacher accountability and vouchers et al)

and so i've been depressed as of late about the fact that this field that i am passionate about is so lacking in any real reform movement and that perhaps i've prepared myself for a career in something that is inherently evil...and i really don't want to teach in the public school system anymore, but i also don't want to teach in a private school because i didn't get into teaching to work with supper priviledged kids (not that all private school kids are supper priviledged, but i wanted to "make a difference")

anyways, you've opened up a whole new world for me (play sappy theme song here) and i am very excited and going to visit the fairhaven school asap.


aaaahhhhh, it felt good to get that off my chest.

ps- any other public school teachers out there want to join me?

pps- mallory, the pledge of allegiance during homeroom and my assigned job of "patriotism enforcer" used to drive me nuts. not sure what i'd do with channel one!

[lilypad]

zipperum-a-zoomum,
I have ALL the same frustrations as you with being a public school teacher. I taught gr.7 and gr.12 over the past 5 yrs., and let me tell you kids in gr. 7 have WAY more enthusiasm that the highschool kids, what does that tell you when the 7th graders are already apathetic about learning. I got so frustrated with kids not wanting to do any activity that was openended because they were not sure they would get the "right answer". AND I was way too tired of arguing with kids over their grades. Half the time I felt like telling them (and their parents) , HEY, you are only in gr.7, the grade you get on this assignment DOES NOT MATTER!! THe important thing is do you understand the concept!!!! I think it is sad because we all know kids have innate curiosity and want to experiment and learn, but somehow the school system sucks that out of them and all they care about is what their grade is. I am going to check out those links too and hopefully get a whole new perspective on education:)

[lauren]

A dear friend of mine who has taught for many years in secondary school, talks about magnet schools and how wonderful they are. So I think every community would need a "basic school" for those who are content with learning "just enough" to get by, and then several magnet schools with themes like performing arts, fine arts, science and math, experiential learning, etc. The funds would be diverted to the magnet schools and there would probably be several teachers willing and eager to leave the basic school to teach at the magnet school. So the public school would become decentralized. A child could pursue their passions in learning and life.

I agree, too, that the mandatory aspect of school should be relaxed-- perhaps to "strongly suggested". Good parents would want their children to be learning! But if they wanted to take off 2 weeks to fully explore, for example, geology, a student could, and then report back without being counted as absent or truant. I guess I'm saying my ideal school would be sort of a blend of a school building with teachers and homeschooling or collaboratives of parents working together on themes.

[Alexander]

Originally posted by zipperum-a-zoomum
Alexander and all:
I think i'm going to have a hard time describing the experience i've just had, but here goes.

I just followed your link to the sudbury valley school, and then followed that to others (there's one here in maryland!) and i feel a bit teary.

Yo, zip zip. We gotta talk.

Actually, from the American perspective, it can look like the whole system needs to be ditched, and that "evolution" does not work. But the main problem for the current Industrial model school IME is that there is no final goal in all subjects that all US children strive for. In the UK, there has been a system in place at two key points, age 16 and 18, that all children are examined. Not only that, but all univercities are obliged to use the system for their entrance requirements.

Now it is an arguable point whethter or not this is any good, but one point is beautifully clear. The system allows for much greatervariety of school than in the US. Headmasters/ mistresses can try exciting things if they wish.

With the greatest respect, trying to change the stsem from within is like two party-goers trying not to get drunk by drinking different cocktails in a bar.

Evolution has been happening in the UK. Sure there are alot of bad schools, but that is the nature of variety.

I look forward to you sprinin' out of that box you're in.

a

[SagMom]

zipperum-a-zoomum, I'm just passing through this thread but your post caught my eye. I read Holt et al in the same way you did--thinking that I would change the system. (Holt of course, had the same idea at one time but his abandonment of it didn't deter me.) I had two children in public school and I was working on a M.Ed. when we bailed out. If you liked reading about Sudbury, I'd recommend the book, "Summerhill" by A.S. Neill. If I ever was to return to education, it would have to be something like this for me.

I'd love to see ps become self-directed learning places, with teachers as consultants and advisors rather than instructors. There would be no predetermined course of study. All areas of interest would be funded according to the interests of the students--the music department would get more $ than the "basic skills" areas if that's where the students' demand resided, for instance. Testing would be abolished, as would grade levels. Everyone on the campus, teachers, students, staff could expect to be treated with the same measure of human respect.

[will-o-thewisp]

Hi zipperum-a-zoomum! I am glad you are encouraged by what you found out about the democratic schools! But I also wanted to put in my two cents about the "evil"public school systems. I don't think it is ever a waste for "radical";) educators to be in the p.s. system. I wish I could get my hubby on these boards. He is the one I watch and learn from. He is an extremely innovative and creative PUBLIC school educator. His official role is guidance counselor, but he spends most of his time doing in class lessons that he ties in to what the teacher has been focusing on. He does yoga, meditation, co-operative learnig games and activities, an annual Shakespeare play that the 5th graders perform, peer mediation, ..... I guess what I am saying is that it is possible to work within the restraints of the "curriculum" to bring more creative guidance to the srudents. I have heard many parents tell him that he has helped spark their child's NATURAL desire to explore and learn about their world. Teachers sometimes don't realize their good (or bad) influence on their students. We need good educators putting their energy into the students, because that is how the change will begin.(imho) So don't feel like you wasted time in public schools. Because the kids are there right now in need of you and anyone else willing to push the system--even if is seems futile. It isnt'!!! You sound extremely passionate about education. However you choose to channel it, you will do amazing work!!! So rock on sista!!!

[zipperump-a-zoomum]

Hey everyone! Thanks for the perspectives...
I like the idea of "decentralized" public schools, Lauren...

I love your vision of public school, Joan. so how do we get there? is there some lobbying group? some voice for reform? how do i explain this to my congressperson? hmmm...

will-o-thewisp-- thanks for the voice of encouragement! I must admit, i'm not sure i want to go back to ps teaching. i just feel like it has caused me to be a little depressed and warped my vision of people. (I'm teaching night school right now; mostly kids who got kicked out of day school, or some who chose to go to night school so they can stay home with baby during the day) props to your husband for sticking with it!

alexander-great analogy about the cocktail party. same questions for you--- where do i add my voice for this type of reform?
thanks guys!

[SagMom]

Zip...
I'm afraid that at this point in my life, I'm a bit too cynical to believe that such a major change in the ps system here will occur in my lifetime, no matter how much lobbying is done. I think that it's possible for change to happen through charter schools though. IF parents and teachers successfully model these schools to the point that ps are loosing significant numbers of students, then the ps will have to take notice. I know a lot of people don't like charter schools at all, but I really think that it's the best shot that citizens have right now of showing the government what we want.

[will-o-thewisp]

Hey Zip, one more thing---
I have pretty much decided our son will go to private school (maybe fairhaven????) from at least the 5th grade on. However, dh says, "how would that look if my kids go to private schools?" and I said, "it would show your bosses (board and higher ups) that you know how much schools suck but you are there anyway!!" So he and I will be debating this one until he agrees with me!!:p Along the lines of homeschooling-- what about co-ops with other families? When I imagine what homeschooling would be like for our family, I only see it working within a community of homeschoolers. Maybe one parent is gifted in science, another with arts, etc. And the kids could go to a different home for different subjects. I am sure this is going on somewhere. But I am not real intelligent in science/math/grammer (can you tell!?) so I wouldn't do my son much good in those areas!!! You are in Baltimore, right? Let's work together and find out what is going on in D.C. (if anything) about all this reform. I think Joan might be right on about the Charter Schools. Let's get together sometime and find something we can do!!! (I am in Westminster, so Balto isn't far for me)
Also, that is great you are helping those who want to further themselves. Especially those mamas!! Take care!!
:D

[paula_bear]

Lots of stimulating discussion happenin' here. In another thread about our "ideal school," I mentioned that this is what I envision for my 8 y/o DS: A community-based learning program (no structural school buildings) where DS would wander around the town (hard to imagine these days, but it's still my dream...) learning from the residents by watching them work, helping them out, asking questions, etc.

He has been friendly and a born-extrovert since infancy. I would "supplement" his real-life learning experiences by providing assistance in helping him to gather info about areas of interest until his curiousity was satisfied. He would definitely "run the show."

As far as learning "the basics," I think that would be a natural consequence / progression of this type of education. For instance, there are various opportunities to learn maths in everyday life - making change, planning a budget, cooking, telling time, etc. We would also take many field trips to museums and the like, according to what DS felt interested in at the time. And of course we would persue the Arts according to his interests as well.

[SIGH] This is MY dream, don't know how I could make it a reality. I need to find a 50's-style hometown, I suppose, where I could actually get to know and trust my neighbors!

[paula_bear]

P.S. We plan on giving homeschooling a shot over the summer and possibly leaving PS altogether. I really feel that, despite wonderful teachers (with whom we've been blessed), my DS is not getting his learning needs meet within the PS system. Currently there are only 18 children in his class, not too bad, but I still feel that he isn't getting the specific attention he needs. Or perhaps a more accurate statement would be that his learning style needs are not fulfilled. It also seems that his "behavior problems" coincide with when he began formal schooling. I really feel that his creativity has been stifled, his curiousity has not been nourished or even encouraged, and all around it has had a negative effect on him. Hopefully we can fix the damage and move forward!

[EFmom]

Our public school system is pretty good, and my complaints about it are minor. We moved to the district on purpose. They do squander taxpayer money on the DARE program, which I would abolish. They also only offer half day kindergarten, which I think is wrong.

DH is a high school teacher in a different district, which is not so good. Two of my sisters are also teachers.

So much of what the schools get blamed for is a reflection of society in general. The schools have had to assume roles that they are not designed for, like social services agency, medical provider, parole enforcement and the like. I'm politically liberal, but this is one area where I get somewhat conservative, and I realize I'll probably get flamed for this.

I would give teachers the genuine power to have kids with a history of disruptive behavior taken out of the classroom and sent to alternative schools. DH spends way, way, way too much of his time dealing with the handfull of kids who do not want to get an education, whose parents don't care if they get an education, and whose sole goal seems to be to prevent the kids who do want to learn from getting an education. These kids are robbing their peers of opportunity, and they should be sent elsewhere. It would make a huge difference to the remaining 95% of the students.

I think President Bush's so called "higher standards" are extraordinarily destructive to public schools. DH is dealing with that, too. What they really mean by "higher standards" are lower standards for the more academically oriented students. Yeah, everybody has to pass tests, but the tests are much watered down from what they used to be. For some of the less academically oriented students, they are facing mounting frustration and some are getting violent, while others who might have passed under the older system are tuning out altogether because they know they'll never pass the new exams. Plus, the teachers are forced to spend all of their class time preparing for the tests.

[lauren]

I would agree EF Mom, that schools have had to take on way more than they were originally supposed to, in terms of providing for kids-- in some areas they also have to be police as well as social service, medical, etc. And I think that disruptive kids are very hard to deal with in the regular classroom. I disagree that the individual kids are being disruptive on purpose (at least at the elementary level). Most kids who are underachieving and/or disruptive are dealing with a history of poor attachment to start with, domestic violence, trauma, multiple caregivers, parental drug abuse, etc., etc., etc. So, they are "reacting", out of the part of their brain invested in survival. Learning is not their top priority, because they don't have safety, perhaps food, and other basics. Yes, it is a burden to the teacher. Schools need to be able to meet some of these needs, and for some, an alternative program seems to work, for others a school-based counselor/clinician. It is becoming more and more of a problem.

There is tons of research on kids coming to kindergarten not ready to learn--socially, emotionally and academically. Family support programs have been demonstrated to change this. But they are always underfunded. If our country was truly serious about school readiness, there would be fundamental changes in how young families are supported, starting at birth. Those are my 2 cents!

[Alexander]

Originally posted by EFmom



I would give teachers the genuine power to have kids with a history of disruptive behavior taken out of the classroom and sent to alternative schools.



Do you mean:

a) different schools that they are going to,

b) a "special school" for this type of child

c) or do you mean a type of school that is not the norm for PS, such as a "free school", "democratic school", "charter school" etc.

Just wondering about this.

a

[sleepies]

at least in my district.
i know there are HORRIBLE districts out there.

best advice, is to move to a better school district, if you do not like yours.

i guess, if i could change something, I would NOT make junior high and highschool age "kids" take PE. I think Physical Education should be optional.

for me there was nothing worse than going through puberty in the shower room :(

[indiegirl]

I'm a public school drama teacher.

When I was a kid I made mental notes as to what I hated about schools so that if I ever became a teacher, I could change things.

Here is what I came up with:

1. Kids are people and shouldn't be treated stupid.
2. When I was expected to do well, I did.
3. Busy-work pissed me off. Dittos taught me nothing.
4. When you experience, you learn. I tuned out of lectures within 5 minutes, but when I had hands-on activities that required thought, I excelled.

As a teacher, I see the need to balance curriculum/high standards with things that are enjoyable/challenging. I think I do a pretty darn good job of respecting my students but often have to reiterate the need for them to respect me (ie talking when I am talking). People talking when I am talking wouldn't be a big deal if they were only hurting themselves--but in my experience, the ones who talk affect everyone else with their chatter. And then about fifty million kids come up to me and ask the SAME QUESTIONS, questions I had just answered.

I've solved this by only teaching things once. If they don't get it, they need to ask their classmates. Of course I'll clarify, but I refuse to enable that kind of disrespect. BTW, it's working beautifully.

My assignments are thoughtfully designed, but not concrete. My students' needs and desires always shape what we are doing and none of my semesters have been the same. I don't hand out busy-work and I expect excellence. I don't always get it, but I mostly do!

Talking about grand public-school change, my ideas for improvement are these: teachers should be trained according the the most progressive models for education. Cross-curricular assignments/lessons, hands-on learning when ever possible, reasonable class sizes (ideally, no more than 20 students) and the money to have resources....I have no computer and hardly a budget for my curriculum. I use my home computer for grading and lesson planning--and I spend about 20 hrs a week extra doing so. I don't get paid for this extra time....

As far as compensation goes, if you want qualified teachers who care about their job and are excited to teach, you have to make it worthwhile to do so. I have a Master's degree and make 20K a year less than my counterparts in other areas of the USA. I'm sure there are folks who make less than me. Honestly, I don't know of a profession where a Master's degree earns so little money. People bitch about schools but aren't willing to pay teachers a living wage.

I am worth a living wage. My students will tell you that my classes have changed their lives---and there are others like me. I live paycheck to paycheck and don't know how much longer I can afford to teach...

[journeymom]

Hello, I've been lurking for a while. What an interesting discussion!

Indiegirl, you sound like a very thoughtful person and an excellent teacher! If it's any consolation, teacher pay is always a priority with me! My parents both were high school teachers...

My ideal school... it would have a learning specialist to help the teachers individualize lessons for their students. Kids learn in lots of different ways, at different times in their life.

I would love to make it so a teacher never ever comes to the conclusion that "Johnny is just lazy and if he'd just apply himself, he'd be getting straight A's". No, Johnny has a serious attention problem, or a serious memory problem (or whatever else), and if he could get his brain to work right he'd like nothing more than to cooperate in class. I don't think children enjoy being disruptive, at least not the little kids.

EFmom, I appreciate what you say about getting the disruptive kids out of the class. I agree, teachers shouldn't have to deal with that sort of behavior. This is the primary reason we signed our daughter up for a private school. I want her to go to a school where the parents, presumably, care about their child's education as much as I do. (We eventually couldn't afford it. Oh well. Her pub school is not bad.)

That's why I'd want to catch them before they get buried in problems.

I was recently diagnosed with ADD, so I've got THAT on my mind. And I'm reading a very interesting book, "A Mind at a Time" by Mel Levine,m.d. He wants schools to put less emphasis on negative labels like ADD and concentrate on helping kids learn how to use their own unique minds to their best ability. I haven't finished the bood, but so far it sounds wonderful, ideal and very expensive, probably impossible to implement across the nation.

It might be someone here at Mothering that mentioned his website, www.allkindsofminds.org. He's a very nice pediatrician who really seems to know how children learn.

Anyway, that's my agenda!