Preteens and sex

[orphie]

I'm freaking out! I just found out my 14-year-old daughter is 1) sneaking around behind my back, and 2) having oral and manual sex with her 14-year-old boyfriend! Yes, I looked at her journal - I know it's wrong, but I was worried about what I had suspected for a while - and unfortunately, I was right! What can I do to get her to stop this kind of behavior? Or can I? We had always been open and frank about sex with each other, but it seems she's transformed into this person I don't and can't trust. I found out she's been hitching rides with high-schoolers, sneaking boys into our house at night, sneaking boys into other people's houses at sleepovers, participating in foreplay with her boyfriend, and just lying to me all the time. I thought she and her girlfriends were so wholesome! What do I do? We just moved out of state recently, and I'm afraid to take her new friends away from her. I'm really worried, and actually disgusted. And how do I bring this up to my husband? He'll be crushed. HELP!:crying

[lilyka]

I understand how you feel. I don't have any advce to give you just that I agree this must be shocking and disturbing to you. I don't think you were wrong to look at her journal, kids ae so secretive and are so dead set that adults won't understand so they turn to other people without a clue to guide them. I just don't get that way thinking. I just wasn't so much like that as a teen. I think you should definitely talk to her but this isn't just a phase for her, it is a lifestyle and it isn't going to change unless you at least talk to her.

[Alexander]

Originally posted by orphie
I'm freaking out! I just found out my 14-year-old daughter is 1) sneaking around behind my back, and 2) having oral and manual sex with her 14-year-old boyfriend!

LOL

Of course she is sneaking behind your back! Do you thisnk she will come right out with it in the open?

Look. If she is indulging in this behavior of her own volition, then I'd say she is phycologically ready for fore-play. The shock you must be feeling is that suddenly she is not your baby any more.

As for reading her journal, that was a big mistake. The basis of a secure relationship between teens and parents is trust. That is undermined. If you ever let on, you will lose all trust and respect for the rest of her teen ears, and any leverage will be gone.

You may say that you did it to confirm what you already suspected, but then why did you not ask her up front (if you thought is was any of your business)?

The issue now really is how do you get out from the corner you have painted yourself into?

Stay cool.

Be cool.

Teens have huge respect for mums that are cool.

Recognise what are, and are not your responsibilities as a parent.

Generally, by the time the child is 14, I'd say the responsibilities of parents would cover the following:

How aquire and use a condom.
The dangers of intravenous drugs.
AIDS
The Pill and how to get on it.
VD
What to do if she thinks she is pregnant.
What to do if she is being coersed unwillingly into sexual activity.

Responsibilities do not include:

Who and when she willingly has sex with.

If you think you can bully, coerse, persude, bribe or in any way forcibly alter her current behavior, you are deluded and will fail.

On the other hand, if you support her, love her, be honest, respect her decisions, remain open and be her most loyal friend, she will come to you, respect you, love you, and most important of all, strive not to hurt or disappoint you.

It is in this way that your best shot at influencing her lie. Woman to woman.

I have little information on your family or your ethics, but you obviously love your child. There is perhaps much re-positioning of your role as parent of a child to parent of a young adult to friend of another adult. That is sometimes really hard, and we are never really ready for it.

I wish you the very best of luck.

a

[Natashka]

Frankly I do not understand what freaks you out. If I found out foreplay was between a 14-y.o. daughter (mind you mine all still little and may be by the time they are 14 I WILL understand you) and, say, a 44 y.o. guy, then I would think of intervention because of a potential for exploitation in a relationship. But a 14-y.o. BF, this seems a peer relationship and it seems to be she's enjoying it so she's not being exploited. I concur with Alexander on the issues of sex safety, but other than safety why would you think of intervening in her sexual activity?

[Corriander]

Orphie, I think is it perfectly reasonable to look in your daughter's journal. Just reading it because there is nothing else to read around the house is one thing, but you suspected something was wrong which is a different matter. I would have done it in a heartbeat. Someone else may not believe that your daugher's behaviour is wrong, that's fine for their kid. You believe it is wrong and you do not have to condone it.

If it were my daughter I would probably start by talking to the other parents. They are all going to be embarrassed and hurt and probably blame your daughter for being the instigator. Communication with the boyfriend's parents is a must.

I don't think it is a parent's job to be cool in their kid's eyes. My job is for my kids to think I'm the biggest dweeb there is. My self esteem can take it! But I want my kids to know that they can tell mom because MOM WILL DO THE RIGHT THING - which is different than the cool thing and most kids know this. Your daughter knows that all this sneaking around is wrong because she is sneaking around.

Sure there will come a time when she can move out of the house and be responsible for her own actions. Until that time YOU are responsible for her actions. If she crashes a car, gets arested or gets pregnant then, unless you are ready to drop her off in foster care, you are responsible legally and morally.

I do not know a single ADULT who is still mad at their parents for intervening to keep them from getting into deeper trouble when they were teens. But I do know some adults who still BLAME their parents for NOT getting involved when they knew that something was wrong.

[Marg of Arabia]

I came to your thread thinking a 10 year old was up to all of this. 14 isn't a preteen. She is a full fledged teen. This petting stuff is normal but it WILL lead to intercourse. Communication is VERY important right now. I try to talk about EVERYTHING with my 13 year old. I know it is tough. The hardest thing about your situation is telling her that you read her journal. She may get very angry and start hiding everything in her life from you. Once a wall like that goes up it is nearly impossible to break it down. I guess if it were me(and I am not saying this is right) I would let her know about what I think of having sex. Give her my opinions. I would try to get her to share a little about her relationship with the boy. I probably wouldn't let her know about me reading her journal. I think that could be disasterous. Of course if she out and out asked me if I read it I would have to tell.

good luck! We are ALL going to have to go through these kind of things.

Many here do not have a teen yet so they really do not understand why you would go through a journal. It isn't the right thing to do but it is sometimes what a desperate mom does and they do it because they love their child and want what is best for them.

marg

[orphie]

Thanks to all of you for your feedback. Let me give you an update. First of all, I'm not going to tell her that I looked in her journal. I don't want to break communication with her, and that would do it. But I will look at it again if I feel that I have to. Secondly, I have been on the phone to the mothers of all the people she hangs out with. I have been learning more about what the girls and boys have been up to. One mother even knew about it, but took it upon herself to handle it and didn't think to tell me! (My daughter won't be going there again.) Generally, they are all thankful that someone is being frank and open, and are willing to keep lines of communication open. I haven't talked to the boyfriend's mom yet (she's at work), but I will ASAP. We are also activating our security system to alarm when a door opens. My daughter is going away for the weekend (a chaperoned sports competition), so we will confront her on Monday with our suspicions and the evidence we gathered. She won't be going out unaccompanied by a parent for a while. Wish me luck.

[Corriander]

Good luck Orphie!!!!!

[kykarraliv]

Okay here goes. This may not be PC but, it is not okay for a 14 yr old to be engaging in foreplay. They are not mature enough to handle the consequences. The more sexual activity a teen/child engages in the lower their self esteem goes. As with anything one thing leads to another, nothing is stagnant. If a child is starting foreplaythe next step is sex. If they experience sex so young, what is the next step? This is a risk taking behavior that is not safe. Especially with a disease that will kill you out there, diseases that are not curable and can cause infertility and the very serious consequence of teen pregnancy. Now some may say, there is birth control. Teens can't even remember to take out the trash how can they be expected to remember birth control. This is an activity with to big of consequences. Plus it is also something that is encourageing being deceitful. A child is in no position to accept the consquences of sex, and there for is too young. I agree if your child behavior is causing you concern then reading a diary is the right thing to do. My feeling is if a child has been deceitful then no overnight activities are allowed. Especially if there is not adequate supervision from the adults. Sometimes being a parent means your are not popular with your child. You do what it takes to do the best for them. Side note my mom was the "strict" mom and my friends mom was so "cool" she allowed boys to spend the night and allowed her children to go out as they pleased at night. My sister and I am SAHM of 5 children apiece (even though my mom worked) and my friend has become addicted to hard drugs, her sister had many abusive boyfriends(her age) and married an abusive man, and the boy become very depressed as an adult.Do what you feel in your heart is best for your child. Good luck,

[copslass]

Oh, boy.
Funny, I don't worry about my boys nearly as much.
SO glad my older dd was a late bloomer.
Last year I mentioned her secretive relationship with the boy next door, she was shocked that I knew. How did I know? I just knew. Ok with me, perfectly normal in my eyes. She was 15 or 16 when it started. She is a 17.5 year old virgin today.
Of course, I know him and his family well, and I know my dd's intentions and goals. No doubt that it makes things easier and more relaxed. I honestly viewed it as a healthy relationship.
I was actually surprised at how "OK" I was with the situation, I can be such a "prude."

As far as reading your dd's diary, I understand how a mother might need the insight if communications aren't that good at the time, and a teen's well being is the #1 priority. I will admit to snooping at times.
What a transition... they were such beautiful babies!
My best to you,
Tracy

[Greaseball]

Suppose your daughter was a son instead - would you react the same?

[orphie]

My son is 13. You bet your buns I would!

[Greaseball]

My mother let my brother spend the night with his girlfriend regularly when he was 15, yet I was never allowed to spend nights with boys, not even my gay friends. And yet my mother would talk badly about Harley's girlfriend and her mother for letting him stay there.

That does not make any sense at all, treating children differently based on gender. And he ended up getting a girl pregnant while still in high school - all "her fault", of course. (According to my mother and others like her who believe in double standards.)

[kykarraliv]

Boy or girl it matters not. They are too young to be starting this kind of sexual activity. No double standards here.

[Red]

Put the kid in the car, start driving somewhere far! Tell your daughter that you're worried about her behavior (confessing to reading the journal is something you'll have to decide) Let her know you've discovered some of what's going on. GET HET BIRTH CONTROL AND PROTECTION. TEll her you love her. Ask her about her new friends, ask her how she feels about her new school. Don't let her escape and do this often. Get your husband to do the same. Kids will respong to increased parental involvement

If you recently moved she's going through alot. WHile you've probably asked her how it was all going before, it's different when you say, 'I know what's going on'.

I'd be shocked if this was my daughter, too, but she's not too far off the norm, really. Don't panic. Maybe you can get her involved in some activities...swim team or family night with you and hubby at the Y, sewing classes or karate....anything that will keep her busy, and out of mischief.

Ane remember, the best thing about teenagers is that once they're 18, you're not the one who's going to jail, no matter what they do!

[Alexander]

Originally posted by orphie
. . . so we will confront her on Monday with our suspicions and the evidence we gathered.

So.

Looks like you have made up your mind. I hope it turns out ok. At the eleventh hour though, I'd like to gently suggest you re-consider.

Look at what you have written. You have designed in a confrontation. Is that necessary? Can it not be done on a more woman to woman level. Teens crave respect. If you demote her to "immature child" status, that is the role she will take.

Suspicions and evidence gathered... looks more like the inquisition than love and support.

Anyway, that is how a teen will view it.

Can not a more understanding approach be made to thi young lady?

I fear you may win the battle,

And lose the war.

Please think on it.

a

[orphie]

Maybe presentation would be a more appropriate word than confrontation. I feel I can't treat this as a woman-to-woman thing - she is not a woman. She also is not a child, I agree. We are trying to find a middle road. We will not approach her in anger, but we will let her know how disappointed we are with the choices she made. We decided to approach this as two separate issues: a breach of trust (lying, sneaking around), and poor choices regarding sexual behavior. Each issue must be handled differently. The breach of trust will be met with revocation of privileges and freedoms, to be earned back in the future by meeting clearly defined behavior goals. The open communication with other parents will facilitate this. The sex issue will be handled with a frank discussion of what we think is appropriate and inappropriate for a girl her age, and the consequences of her actions (as if she didn't know all of this already). We are worried that all of her support will disappear at once (the boyfriend is already shifting most of the 'blame' to her, her friends may treat her differently), so we are trying to make sure she is confident of our love (even though she will surely hate us). We are grateful that we had a weekend to cool off and get our heads straight before we talk to her. We are also open to obtaining professional help if we feel that it is needed. You know, after all this, she's still my baby.

[pina la nina]

orphie - I do wish you all the best so please forgive me if I'm being nosy. I'm confused - how are you going to tell her you know about all these things that disturb you - if you don't tell her you read her journal? Won't she wonder how you know? Aren't you afraid of alienating her and driving her to be more secretive and risk taking in her behavior? I think thats what Alexander is thinking of (forgive me Alexander if I'm wrong) I do wish you the best in this, its a hard situation, but you know her best.

[kykarraliv]

Just wanted to wish you luck. May love and wisdom prevail. It is a rough road we have to travel as parents sometimes.

[orphie]

Well, we weren't going to tell her about the diary, but we found out that the boyfriend's parents told him about it, so the cat's out of the bag. We will tell her that we only looked after we spoke to her friends' mothers and found out she had been lying to us and sneaking around. Of course, we won't offer this information right away. Either way, we risk alienation, but I'd rather have her mad at me than have her continue this irresponsible, dangerous behavior. She had also been keeping a free email account that we were not aware of, which included a naked picture of her boyfriend. My husband and I agree that we will use any means at our disposal to keep her safe. I feel terrible using gestapo tactics, but I would do it again in a heartbeat. Eventually, she'll learn to trust us again, as we will her.

[dfoy]

I was in a very similar situation with my 17 yo dd last summer. I was very pregnant last summer and not paying as much attention to her comings and goings as usual. We found out she was dating a 25 yo behind our backs. She refered to him as a friend and said he was 19. Long story that I won't go into but we found out the truth and both my dh (her stepdad) and I confronted her with the lies, deceit, etc. She says they didn't have sex but I'm not so sure.

She goes to her dr. by herself and I have encouraged her to be proactive about contraception (condoms are a must, something else to help prevent pregnancy) if she is sexually active and I'm pretty sure she has a Rx for birth control. I'm not naive and I was having sex at 16 so I wanted her to know that she was in control of her own destiny, body and future and she needed to take that control. I never dreamed she would hook up with a 25 yo!!!!

Anyway, she was not the only one of her group of friends that "dated" this guy. Come to find out he had had sex with numerous girls that hung out with my dd. This was bordering on pedophilia to me...they were all barely 16 (the age of adult consent in my state).

We had to take priviledges away (her car, any contact with her friends outside of our house, any contact with this guy, etc.). She still continued to go behind our backs with a hotmail account, he would meet her at work, etc. AFter threatening him with a restraining order, he finally quit seeing her.

Anyway, I could go on and on but the bottom line is that your daughter betrayed your trust. Plain and simple. She is exhibiting self destructive behavior and you must intervene. Whatever your methods are, she needs your guidance, your love, and your forgiveness. But she also needs to rebuild the trust she broke with you.

Happily, now that this is behind her, my 17 yo dd thanks us for intervening and totally understands why we did what we did.

Good luck and I hope things turn out for the best!

[Corriander]

Hi

I don't want to pry, but did you have the big talk with your dd? I will have teenagers someday and I am curious to see how your situation is working out.

[orphie]

Well, we talked to her Monday. She didn't deny anything. The only emotion she showed was when she was told that her boyfriend's parents wouldn't let them see each other anymore. (They have since relented, although the kids won't be able to see each other unchaperoned.) She screamed for a long time, how she hated us, how we never trusted her, etc. Later she calmed down and we talked some more. She feels no shame or remorse or regret, for having sex, or hurting others, or sneaking around. We have talked often in the past few days. She is adamant that what they did was not sex. And she is just as adamant that it's our fault she sneaked around and had sex because we were too strict. She just does not think she made any wrong choices! She also said that her 14-year-old girlfriend, who's had intercourse with two boys already, did so because her parents were too strict, so now the parents aren't strict anymore. She thinks we're too hard on her because she has to clean her room before she wants to go out - her friends' parents don't do that. Of course, she also said that her friends don't have messy rooms. I'm having a really hard time talking to her because I just can't make her see that she, and only she, is accountable for her own actions! Maybe we've raised her wrong all this time. Does anyone have any advice on how to get this self-accountability across to her? In the meantime, she is grounded from computer, phone, and going out for the next month. After that, we will reevaluate her progress, and see if she can earn some privileges back. She seems to think she's entitled to complete freedom. She wants to be given adult freedom, but not the responsibilities, but she's acting and thinking like a child! I'm so frustrated!

[Corriander]

If it means anything, I think you are doing the right thing. This sounds so hard but you and your dh are doing a great job! The way that she is behaving, not taking responsibility, to me shows that she is still too young for this kind of sexual behavior, so you are definately on the right track.

She is on the cusp of adulthood and she knows it. She is pushing the limits, not unlike a toddler who wants to know how close is too close to the busy street. Despite her protestations there may even be a small part of her that is relieved that you are stopping her from going to far.

Keep up the good work mom!

[dfoy]

You said in your last post that she is acting and thinking like a kid...you are right because she is a kid. She will be a kid until she reaches adulthood. She believes that she is invincible and that nothing bad (pregnancy, AIDS, other STDs, rape, etc) can or will happen to her. I can tell you as a parent of a teenager and a teacher for 20 years of teenagers that it is their job as a teenager to fight with you and push the limits, asserting their freedom. It is your job as an adult to let that freedom develop at the appropriate rate (and as the parent, you have to decide what that rate is for your child -maturity is different for different kids).

My daughter was convinced that what she did (lie, sneak around, etc as well as see a 25 yo) was not "wrong" either. It was only when it came out in the open that he was sleeping with other girls in her circle of friends that she saw our side of the issue.

I hope things start to go better for you and for your daughter. I know how stressful this is. But if you give in now on any issue, you stand the chance of having this happen over & over again.

[Dot.mom]

((((((((Orphie))))))))))

In the end, we can only do our best and hope our children grow up well in spite of us.

I don't mean to sound blaming with this but there is a parallel that has emerged that you might not have considered. Your DD lyed and snuck behind your back. You snuck behind her back in reading her journal. She does not feel remorse. You state that you would also repeat your actions if you thought it were necessary.

I would like to suggest reframing your interactions with your daughter for a while by introducing her to some acceptable risk taking. Moutnain climbing, sky diving, flying lessons-anything that she is interesting to her and won't give you too bad of a heart attack;) . This will accomplish two things-one it will give her less time to engage what you see as unacceptable behavior and two-it will give her a new set of peers. Ideally you could do this together, but even if it means for her to go by herself, you can still be involved by taking her and hosting get togethers with her new friends. Even if she already engages in some type of acceptable risk taking, trying something new might give her a broader view of what different possibilities life has to offer.

In the end, she will engage in foreplay and sex, it's just a question of how old she is before this becomes a part of her life. It might help you to define for yourselves how old your comfort level is, even if this is, in the end, not how long your dd ends up waiting.

I hope this helps. I'm having a terrible, panicy PMS so if I have stated things in an offensive way, I would like to apologize in advance.

Much love and strength to you!

[orphie]

Just thought I'd post an update...
My dd is still grounded for her surreptitious behavior (until March 13), so things have been pretty calm. We have been talking a lot, just snatches of valuable conversation here and there. She still believes that we 'made' her engage in foreplay with her boyfriend because we were too strict. She won't even consider the fact that she is the only one who is accountable for her actions. Also, she still insists that what she did is not considered 'sex.' I think we will gradually let her earn back her privileges, but until I see that she is ready to take responsibility for her actions, I don't think she'll be going anywhere unmonitored or unaccompanied by a parent. Does anyone have any thoughts on this accountability issue? Is it too late to reverse this sense of entitlement that she has?
Also, I've read the book Reviving Ophelia by Mary Pipher, and it's given me some great insight into the adolescent girls' psyche. My dd is reading it now. I'm hoping we'll be a little closer to being 'on the same page' when she's done, and that we will be able to discuss it together.

[Greaseball]

All I know is, I would never read my DD's journal unless I was prepared to let her read mine.

[glh]

How old are your children greaseball? I have never snooped in ds 17's room or eavesdropped on his conversations, but if I thought his life was in danger or he was in danger of ruining his life, I would do it in a minute to save him. That is a parent's job. It's easy to say you would never do those things when your kids are little, but you don't know how mature they will be as teens or how smart their decisions will be. The decisions they make as teens have lifelong consequences and we are not there every minute to watch over them and help them. They don't always listen to reason and may do things simply to rebel, they still need us to help them even if they think they don't want us to.

[Greaseball]

True, my dd's just a baby and I may change my mind about parenting styles when she's a teen, but I think if something drastic happened and I just had to read her journal, I think it would be fair to let her read mine. If I'm going to demand to know her feelings and thoughts, she should get to know mine. I used to read my sister's journal when I was a kid and when she found out, it really made her feel better when I let her read mine.

Of course, I can't really speak for anyone else, but I think if I have to resort to reading someone's journal or looking through their stuff to find out what's going on, I've probably screwed up somewhere. If someone doesn't want to talk to me, it's usually because I've done something wrong.

I used to read people's jounals and e-mails, search their rooms and cars, listen in on their phone calls, and follow them around town. I told myself I was just "checking up on them", supposedly for their sake and mine, but now I know what I was doing - STALKING.

[Dot.mom]

Orphie, I think it was a great idea to have your dd read the same book as you!!!! Getting on the same page is so crucial at this point. I don't think it really matters what view point the book takes (haven't read it myself) so long as you and dd can come to an agreeable understanding. I think this is the best step in the right direction. Thanks for the update-I will remember your struggles and those of the mothers who have gone before me when it is my turn to see my daughter through this time of transitions.

[Snow]

Hi Orphie and everyone else --- I just showed up late on this thread, as usual, but it interested me as my oldest dd is 13 and it is just a matter of time..... Am trying my best to keep her safe and informed while still letting her make her own choices whenever possible but it is very hard.

I totally understand what you are saying about the lack of accountablilty. My dd does the same tactic -- it's easy to blame things on your lame parents, especially when all of your friends are doing the same. Just keep on making her accountable and responsible for her actions as much as you can. I really do think they are listening to us at some level. Have heard my side of things presented by dd to her friends as if they were her words not mine - so I know she was listening and ultimately agreeing. It's a good feeling and sometimes hard to come by!

Greaseball --- I do totally understand what you are saying. And until the last 6 months I would never have considered ever looking at a journal. But things have changed and if I was worried about her, maybe I would too ---- I don't know. But the point is that you can't know until you've been there.

Am glad to have seen this. It has given me something to think about.

[chickachicka]

Just a different perspective - I WAS your daughter at 14! Now I am a mature and reasonable 27 year old with a professional degree...but what I remember, painfully, was looking for my mom to listen to me - I snuck around too - a LOT - and tried talking to my mom about the fact that I was having sex (at 15!) but she just said she'd punish me if she found out I was...so she didn't find out until 17, when she read my diary. I really did feel like sneaking around was my only option, if the other option was punishment or making me break up with my boyfriend. Lying and sneaking was part of our family's dynamic, unfortunately. Very Catholic.

Why sex, so early? I was starving for love, and companionship, and attention...and plain and simple curiosity. I'm not sure what tactics I'll use for my daughter, but I'll try to stress the importance of school, how much I love her, and how she can talk to me anytime, and I won't condemn her for being open. It seems, the families who are *reasonably* permissive (i.e. let their teens have a drink or two at home, don't punish or promote romantic engagements, etc - like my husband's family was), the teens realize that all of these "vices" aren't an either/or proposition...but things to be engaged in the right time, in the right place (i.e. when they're older). He had a considerably more healthy teen and young adulthood than myself.

I still don't trust my mom, and wish that I could have told her the truth more often...instead of the truth she wanted to hear...she's unfortunately still like this to this day. Good luck with your situation though - the "Ophelia" book is a good choice - so is that "Our Bodies, Our Selves" book for teens - it has a good section on respecting yourself.

[chickachicka]

p.s. orphie - obviously the situation is different if you're religiously against premarital sex! that would probably be a different discussion with your daughter, based on your family's values.

[orphie]

Well, we're really trying not to come down on her hard for the sex part. But she is being punished for the lying and sneaking around. We didn't force her and her boyfriend to break up, but they will be chaperoned for a really long time. Of course, she'll be chaperoned or watched very carefully no matter who she's with or where she goes for a long time. And regarding your search for love, chickachicka, we thought we were giving her lots of it. We were demonstrative and affectionate, and we still try to be. Of course she wants no part of it or us right now. But I, too, was a rebellious teen (when I was 16). Maybe it's in the genes?
Right now she is one week away from being un-grounded. We told her that she would have to earn back every privilege she had before, but she still has a huge sense of entitlement. And now she isn't even acting nice anymore - at least before she used to be nice to her siblings and us. She's become quite hard to live with. I know she can push my buttons like no one else (and vice versa), and I know adolescent girls communicate by arguing, but it's been so difficult to get along with her lately. I feel like I have to walk on eggshells, and I resent having to do that.
We told her that she has to get a summer job, but she is just about refusing. Is she just digging in her heels because it's what we want her to do? I encouraged her to resolve a conflict with her band teacher her own way, thinking through the consequences, and so far, she's done it pretty well, and we've praised her for it.
My husband and I realize that we have to work on a plan to define how she earns back her privileges, but we are having a hard time finding objective goals for her to reach. How do you define a desired behavior, like accountability? Of course, we'll reward her for good judgement, and thinking through consequences, but this means she'll actually have to talk to us, and she doesn't want to do that right now. Any advice?

[chickachicka]

Those are good questions you ask. I guess - why did she lie to you in the first place - why did she feel like she couldn't be open about her sexuality? Is it more "fun" if she lies, maybe? Was she afraid of getting in trouble? Is it clear to her *when* sex is OK, and that sex isn't all it's made out to be (telling her your own stories might help out!)? My mom said no sex til marriage, which seemed highly unrealistic in my town, where there was pretty much nothing else to do (small town) but get drunk, high, or pregnant. In retrospect, I was pretty responsible compared to friends!

Teen-hood is so scary and weird - you want to be totally independent, but don't know how. A hundred years ago, girls her age got married off and were birthin' babies - maybe it's a physiological thing! A job is really helpful though - particularly if it's something she likes. A selling point is that she gets a discount in the store she works at - maybe a music store, if she likes music? Or clothing store, if she likes to dress hip? I got my first job at 16 and it made such a huge difference in how I felt about myself.

Accountability seems to happen when you make your first big mistake and pay the consequences yourself. Not parent-induced consequences, but simple cause and effect. Right now, she's blaming all the bad effects (grounding) on you, rather than her own behavior. Getting her into the outside work world would probably help with this.

Also, I know this will feel odd to you as a parent, but is there an outside motherly-type figure that's not YOU that she could talk to, whom you trust? Sometimes teens just don't want to talk to their parents, but will talk to other motherly-type figures, and are getting the same advice, but because it didn't come from you...it's cool! I surrounded myself with these women, and it helped a lot.

I SO don't look forward to revisiting this as a mom - I just remember the teen side of things...

[pear]

I was pregnant with my dd at 15.

Contributing factors to early sexual activity I have observed (I attended a pregnant and parenting teens high school for a while and learned a lot!) and felt are lonliness, need ot activities, and need of rites of passage into adulthood. I feel strongly that involving your daughter in activities that are meaningful to her (dance, sports, drama, mountain biking, etc) will help her meet her needs to explore and grow at this age.

Can you think of any rituals that you can do with your daughter that will celebrate her transitions into woman hood?

I agree with the suggestion for our bodies , our selves.

I would also talk with her about birth control and how it fails! Nothing is 100% I have been there.

If you are comfortable with it , maybe you could go shopping online (like at goodvibrations.com ) and invest in a dildo for your daughter to explore herslf on her own. The more comfortable and educated she becomes about her body and its relation to her Self the more able she will be to respect it and make healthy choices.

Love and Health

[orphie]

Thanks for the advice! But regarding the dildo, I'm just not ready for that, and might never be.
Otherwise, my dd and I have always been upfront and open about sex. We do have Our Bodies, Ourselves, and I'm pretty sure she's explored it. But I worry about her not seeing the consequences of her actions, and only living in the here-and-now, like any other adolescent. She's obviously playing with fire. I just wish there was a non-harmful way for her to get burnt!
She got a job at the pool concession stand for the summer, but she doesn't want to work there with her brother. The deadline to accept the job is March 15, so I told her if she can get accepted at another job before then, great. If not, she has to take this one. I also signed her up for softball, which she loves, and I intend to help coach, or at least show up every game. She also is trying out for high school cheerleading, which she is very talented at, and they have summer practices almost every morning. Of course, she says she doesn't want to cheer for this high school, because it's not the one her boyfriend goes to, and we wouldn't let her transfer. But she really loves to cheer, so I think she'll come around - she'll just pretend that it's not fun. I also got her a punchcard for free gym sessions at the park district, so she can do gymnastics when she wants. So we're really trying to keep her busy, with energy directed in enjoyable but non-harmful ways. But right now, she doesn't care about anything or anyone but herself. I even worry about leaving her alone for a few minutes to take care of her baby brother (4 mos), because she is really cold and insensitive to him. God, give me strength!

[Snow]

Orphie, this whole thread is so timely for me.

Last night we took the toddler to a drop-in center and took our 13 yr old dd to her favorite restaurant for a family meeting. (our 1st) She and dh have been clashing and we also have the accountablilty problem and hostility.
I don't know if a meeting like this would help you, but it really helped us. She had a couple days to think about the meeting in advance so it wasn't just sprung on her.

I started the meeting by saying how important our family is and how much we love each other and that we all needed to try to phrase things with the utmost respect. Then I presented the issues that both of them had towards each other, and how much they are alike, etc. We asked her what kind of requests get her mad, and it turned out to be how he asks them. So then we had her re-phrase how she would like a request to clean her room said, for example. She promises to respond if asked correctly (this will be hard!) and so dh and I both are going to try as best we can. She also will be more friendly and understanding of her little sister. Well, it's only been 24 hrs, but so far it's excellent. Am not foolish enough to think this solved things permanently, but we did get her undivided attention and she enjoyed having ours. Have a feeling that this was the 1st of many meetings to come.

And Chickachicka's idea of a different adult as a mentor/friend is very good. Through our church dd has several options for that and it really works. We haven't got into the huge issues yet as she is 13, but I do work w/ other teens from the church as a mentor and know that those issues are out there.
Good luck!

[Red]

Want a teen to work? When they need money they'll work. Just explain that you're not paying for a single movie, no extra candy bars, no spiffy little hair things, or computer games or whatever it is that she 'll want.

Explain that she can only keep a certain portion of her money , the rest, well I always make 'em save some for college, etc. ANd once they're 16 or working steady (my homeschooled son did carpentry at 14) I tell 'em they need to contribute to the family income (Ohh, one of my hot topics! Kids used to give all their earnings to their parents. They felt they were important to the familys survival. Now we let them keep all their money and they know we don't really need them. Paying your own way is such a liberating thing!)

No money+teen=job!

[orphie]

So true, Red!
The second she isn't able to get what she wants when she wants it, she'll be dying to get a job. She acts indifferent, but is already starting to feel the pinch. She wanted some cool new shower gel yesterday, and I told her I wasn't buying her any extras anymore. Not a big deal yet, but it will be!
Chicakchicka and Snow, regarding other adults she can confide in: she has an 18-year-old sister that lives out of state, and a 30-year-old aunt she has always known she can confide in. As far as I know, she hasn't contacted either of them yet. I will remind her of their availability. Of course, the only advice she listens to right now is what she gets from her friends, who are just as lost as she is. She also talks to her counsellor at school when she feels the need. I know she consulted her after we found out about her lies recently. She's a pretty resourceful and intelligent kid.
Yesterday was better, attitude-wise. But I think that's only because she wasn't feeling well. No matter how 'mature' and snotty they are, they still need their mommies sometimes!
Thanks you all so much for letting me vent, and for sharing your wisdom and experience!

[Lizzy]

Ok not to frighten you but I'm 15. I thought mabe I could help because I know what she is going though so you can get an idea on what to do. my edvise-1 DONT tell dad because he won't want her to see boy friend and thats hard on her 2 talk to her about safe sex and then tell her how you feel, but let me tell ya shes probly going to freak because you know so try not to stress her so you guys can be friends as well as d/m and get through it together.

[orphie]

Thanks, Lizzy, but dad already knows - not the specifics. And dd is informed about safe sex. I have a hard time because I don't want to be her friend - just her mom. And I don't think she wants me as a friend OR a mom. But things have been quiet lately. She seems to have dropped some of her friends, and her boyfriend is on vacation. Things will probably get more difficult when they all go back to school after break. Wish us luck!