Male Circ vs. Female Ear Peircing

[MelissaEvans]

Ok... I was talking to my mom about how my ped annoyed me at our 2wk checkup with his, "so, we're going to circ him now?" question/assumption. She agreed that it was rude of him to do so and we kinda started talking about circ. She had both my li'l brothers done (17 and 18yrs old) and I started with a comment to the effect, "I know the information wasn't available as easily before and it was simply accepted without question..." and she came back, "the information was there, and I knew it when I had it done." Ok, I was trying to leave a door open so when I mentioned the ickiness of circ it wasn't implying any "blame" on her (heaven forbid my mother could *ever* be wrong!). The discussion continued and I mentioned that I simply didn't think it was a decision that a parent had the right to make. She countered that I did make a decision - deciding no counts. Well, yeah, but it has the same effect as if the doctors never asked (which they shouldn't!). Whatever. She then went on about how some people have their baby girl's ears peirced when they're infants and how that's wrong. But circ is OK. WTF? Just kinda funny in a morbid way.

Anyone else ever get that (extremely stupid) comparison?
~Melissa

[Xenogenesis]

What would she say to the judge if either one of them sued.

[Frankly Speaking]

Originally posted by MelissaEvans
"the information was there, and I knew it when I had it done."

Just curious, why did she say she did it?



Frank

[MelissaEvans]

Hygene. She thinks boys are too stupid to care for their own genitals. She mentioned married friends where the husband is intact and the wife gets more infections. I figure if DS's wife does have a problem, then they can decide if it would be better for DS to be circ'd. She agrees that works too.

Oddly, she thought the "look like dad" was dumb. Surprised me.

~Melissa

[Frankly Speaking]

It must be something in our chromosomes. Male chromosome = Single digit IQ.



Frank

[alsoSarah]

Anyone else ever get that ¥extremely stupid¤ comparison?
~Melissa


Actually, that comparison makes a LOT of sense to me©©©
Circ is a more life-changing ¥and therefore more awful¤ thing to do to someone without their understanding or consent, but some of the underlying issues with the parents feeling that it's ok for them to *make* that decision for their kids are the same, kwim?

Not even getting into the piercing gun/hepatitis risk issues that often come into play, given how rarely people use single-use piercing needles on their young children:¥

Peace,
alsoSarah

[tandemmama]

I can see where the comparsion comes in...both are cosmetic, both are painful and unnessocary.

Circ is much more damaging, IMO, but my reasons for not piercing my dd's ears are similar (on a smaller scale) to my reasons for not circ'ing any future boys. I don't want to make that decision for her.

[MelissaEvans]

Yeah, you're right. They're both costmetic and painful and done without the permission of the owner of the body part. I guess I think ear peircing is pretty normal, but I wouldn't have done it to my kid if he ended up being a she. I think an anoying part of this conversation was that I wanted my ears peirced for a *long* time, but mom wouldn't let me until I was 12 and I could take care of 'em. (Like a 10 year old can't, but whatever, she had to be in control.) And just how she was OK with circ, but not this. A huge double standard protecting girls from something (I think) a good chunck of them do later (not that it's OK for mom to do it for them, please don't get me wrong) but not protecting a boy's genitals. Kinda rambling, I hope that makes sense. I think that most girls wouldn't be as mad about having their ears peirced later in life as men could be angry about missing part of their penis. And if the girl does get mad, she can just not wear earings and it's really hard to tell. It affects boys a lot more. Just my guess, I could be totally off base.

~Melissa

[MelMel]

we just pierced our 6 month old dd's ears...even though i would never circ a son if we have one...

i didnt think it would be a big deal, we had it done by a medical piercer (cork-no gun)...i thought she would heal better while she was too young to mess with them, and was still breastfed...when mine were pierced, they got very infected (I was 10 or so)...she healed great and they look real kewl...but...

It was pretty tramatic for us...and we wouldnt get another girls pierced, my dh kept giving me dirty looks that day, and telling me that was a mean, useless thing to do to her, especially because she didnt understand WHY she was sufferering, even if she wouldnt remember...and I felt the same.

but I am glad it happened, because he always said he would circ a boy (whetehr I signed for it or not :eek) but then he agreed to find out more, and has expressed anti-circ feelings! so it spared us more fighting about this bigger issue.

my daughters lobes for my sons foreskin, i can accept that trade-off! I will have to write in her journal what she spared her future brothers from!

:sinister :sinister :sinister :sinister

(forget about foreskins, find out who ripped my sinister smilies viciously away from ME)

[tandemmama]

well, I can see how you're annoyed, now...so, she's FOR circ and against ear piercing for babes..hmm..yeah, that sounds a little strange to me!

[Greaseball]

Although ideally, girls would make their own choices about if and when and what to pierce, remember...

...piercing is not permanent!

(I'm still against it.)

[NatJo Mama]

I had my ears pierced when I was an infant. But actually, the reason I don't pierce my dd's ears is because my ds is intact. I figured, if I left my ds whole, I will leave her whole too, until she asks for it.

Piercing is not permanent? I had second holes put in my ears over 15 years ago, but I don't use them. When will they close up? They haven't yet.

[weebitty2]

Piercing is not permanent? I had second holes put in my ears over 15 years ago, but I don't use them. When will they close up? They haven't yet.

OT : If the piercings are in cartillage, you will ALWAYS have a small hole. In a lobe, it WILL eventually close, but it may still look like it's open, because the piercing will leave a dimpled scar.

I'm still working on figuring out how piercing a baby's ears is more cruel than genital mutilation, but ... to each their own.

[AugustLia23]

Well, DS is intact and we would never make that choice for him, but if and when I have little girls I will probably have their ears pierced at around 3 months, when mine were pierced. I wanted to pierce one of DS's ears, but SO wouldn't have it...

[morgainesmama]

It's funny -- dh wanted my boys (in an abstract if it's a boy way) to be circ'd, but made a point to say at another time in the pg "If it's a girl I don't want to pierce her ears unless she is old enough to decide she wants it done." He just couldn't see the irony.

Ultimately though I found a website about regrowing the foreskin, and when I said, "See, you and baby can be the same and nobody has to get cut!" he backed off and that was the end of conversation! :eyesroll :rotflmao

[TinyBabyBean]

If I had to pick a lesser of two evils it would be the ear piercing for sure. However, I think both acts are cruel and something the body's owner should decide. My girls still don't have their ears pierced and the oldest at 8 is just now asking to get hers done.

[Acksiom]

Y'know, what I've never understood about piercing babies' or even very young children's ears is why anybody would take the risk of the earring parts coming loose and the child swallowing them. Yow!

That's never made sense to me, but OTOH, I never see anybody bring up that point, either. OTGH, though, maybe I just don't know what I'm talking about, too ;) . Is this a valid concern, and if not, why?

Not looking for an argument, just want to know :thumb .

[MonicaS]

If I had to pick a lesser of two evils it would be the ear piercing for sure. However, I think both acts are cruel and something the body's owner should decide.

Ditto! My DDs were both around their 4th b-days they came to ME and asked me to get their ears pierced of their own accord. I made sure I never talked about it unless it was a direct question(which may have happened twice). We discussed it for a week, how it would hurt and how it would be a quick snap, etc. I even overplayed it a bit. They did great w/ it. They were surprised when it snapped, but they didn't cry or anything. They never got infected, and they didn't fuss w/ them.

FTR, I would never let my DS(if I had one) make the circ decision at a young age(he would have to be 18+), but we're not cutting earlobes off here.;)

[CRosewhisper]

I had my ears pierced the old-fashioned way with a needle and thread through the holes to keep them open. My Mom told me that my Grandmother "took" me from her arms and did it with some other ladies present. My Mother didn't want it done but G-ma insisted. She said I screamed loudly and she felt bad that she didn't stop them.

While I do not equate the two at all, I do believe the issues are similiar in nature. I feel that I suffered mentally from it because I have always had major issues with needles (unconsolable screaming as a child) and I have had a reaccuring nightmare of being held down and smothered since I can remember. I guess there is no way for me to know if the ear piercing is the source of all that ingrained fear but I can't ignore the possibility. I did not know of the ear piercing incident til my Mother told me about a month ago.

Ironically when my Grandmother died one of the things of hers I have is a pair of earrings.

With circumcision being a 1000x worse I can't imagine the impressions that could leave on a young mind.

[loving-my-babies]

I would never circ, but I did pierce my dd's ears because dh wanted to and I did not say no. I regret it and would never, ever do that again BUT I feel circumcision is far worse, the pain is worse, and it cannot be taken away, his foreskin is gone forever. I would never pierce again, though.

[Ilaria]

If I had to pick a lesser of two evils it would be the ear piercing for sure. However, I think both acts are cruel and something the body's owner should decide.
Ditto!

Plus, I REALLY dislike the way baby/toddler girls look with pierced ears. Ugh.

[Nemmer]

I won't pierce my baby girl's ears for the same fundamental reason that I won't circ my baby boy. I do agree that the consequences of circing are worse than the consequences of piercing. But both are cosmetic alterations to my baby's body. And both should be their choice.

The difference comes later, when I will allow my girl to get her ears pierced when she's ready to make that choice (around puberty, I'm guessing). My boy, however, will not have my permission to make that choice until he's 18, and I will do my best to educate him about the issue so that it is a choice he'll never want to make.

[AngelBee]

As far as the arguement that boys are too dumb to keep themselves clean..........that is a parenting issue. It is our job to ensure that theu know how to clean themselves properly.

As far as piercing....it is not perminant nor does it amputate a part of their body. Also my daughter chose to get hers done at age 2 1/2. She say it being done and knew it would hurt. She still decided to do it. Didn't even cry and loves them.

I wonder how many baby boys don't cry ay their circum. and enjoy the healing process.

[A&A]

Interesting thread here on pierced ears:

http://www.mothering.com/discussions/showthread.php?t=204098&page=2&pp=20

[intensity_too]

I cringe when I see a baby or small child with her ears pierced. I don't know why but I just think it is wrong. Maybe it's for the same reason that I think circing is wrong. I dunno. I'll have to think on it more. I can say though, that piercing a little baby girls' ears is just wrong and that is totally my opinion!

[tofumama]

My son is not circ'd, nor will my new baby be circ'd. I had my dd's ears pierced when she was a month old. If this baby had been a girl, I would not have her ears pierced. I regret doing it to my dd. I took away her right to choose. She never had any problems, I took her to a licenced piercer but I still regret what I did. I don't think of piercing and circ as being related, except on the level of choice. For me, circ is mutilation, I don't see piercing as mutilation.

[darsmama]

I cringe when I see a baby or small child with her ears pierced. I don't know why but I just think it is wrong. Maybe it's for the same reason that I think circing is wrong. I dunno. I'll have to think on it more. I can say though, that piercing a little baby girls' ears is just wrong and that is totally my opinion!

:thumb I agree

[My2Matthews]

I would never pierce a dd's ears unless she asked for them. I asked my mother for them when I was 7. We made a mother-daughter day out of it, and it was nice. I will do the same with my daughter if I have one, and she wants pierced ears.

[morgainesmama]

We made a mother-daughter day out of it, and it was nice.

Slightly OT -- when I decided to pierce my cartilage at 14 my Dad went with me and we split a pair of earrings; he got his done at the same time. It was really excellent.

And FWIW, I asked to get my ears pierced at three -- I remember it vividly, including crying bc it hurt and I didn't want them to do the second hole. If my 3yo asked to pierce, say, her belly button I'd say no and I kind of feel the same about earrings; it bothers me when people pierce baby girls' ears as it doesn't serve any purpose for the baby and is gratifying only to mamas and relatives, esp. for flagging gender. I think way too much emphasis is placed on gender in our society, and I also just have a real problem with modifying my baby in any way that's not benefitting them, without their permission.

That said, I definitely think putting tiny holes in a person's body is in a whole different realm from cutting off a functioning piece of a person's body.

[polka123]

IMHO -
I do not compare the two.
One is a VERY evasive procedure.
Ripping the skin frm one's penis & poking a hole a 2 very different procedures.
I pierced my DD's ears @ 5 mos.
IMHO, I think it looks cute.
ear piercing is a personal choice one can do or not.
It's entirely up to the family.

Piercing holes in ears can close with very little mark.
I have 8 holes in 1 ear, 6 of which have closed up & yes, quite a few are in cartilage.
You can feel the tiny bump but that's all.

[Mamm2]

If I ever have a daughter, I would not pierce her ears as a baby. IMHO, it is an unncessary procedure that carries risks. It is purely minor cosmetic surgery. Besides, as babies, I would be worried it could become a choking hazard.


My mom had my ears pierced and I hate earringings. I wish she would have given me the opportunity to choose.

I would wait until after she is 7 years old. I would make it a reward for something, and make it a special day.

[calngavinsmom]

I don't agree with either piercing babys ears or infant circumcision. I also don't think they are on the same level on the "mutilation" scale, circumcision just does sooooo much damage. With that said, I think they are both something that the individual can and should be able to decide for themselves being purely cosmetic and all.

My dh origionally wanted to circ our son. I said no. He also said he liked the way a baby girl looked with pierced ears and wanted to do it if we had a girl. I said no. Poor dh doesn't get a say in much does he? :wink

Take care,
Tara

[girlndocs]

I think that qualitatively they are the same, although the magnitude is different. I simply do not have the right to modify my baby's body cosmetically. Nope. End of story.

Also, although they are rare, there are possible complications of piercing that can leave far more noticeable & permanent changes than just tiny holes.

And the practice of having some underpaid, minimally trained twit at the mall to use an impossible-to-sterilize piercing gun on one's baby is a practice that should be mentioned only to be condemned.

[kellyb]

On a scale of 1 to 100...
Let's say... getting your finger pricked is a one...
And the 100 is...well... I was trying to think of something worse than circumcision for the 100...but I can't really think of anything more traumatic...so circ is the 100...(can anyone think of something more traumatic???)...
Anyway...ear piercing is around a 10...maybe 15...so, it's a whole different thing, IMO...
I don't think people should hurt babies for cosmetic/culture specific reasons...so in that sense there's a similarity...but the degree of trauma is so vastly different...incomparably different...I don't really think they can be related at all...

[loving-my-babies]

On a scale of 1 to 100...
Let's say... getting your finger pricked is a one...
And the 100 is...well... I was trying to think of something worse than circumcision for the 100...but I can't really think of anything more traumatic...so circ is the 100...(can anyone think of something more traumatic???)...
Anyway...ear piercing is around a 10...maybe 15...so, it's a whole different thing, IMO...
I don't think people should hurt babies for cosmetic/culture specific reasons...so in that sense there's a similarity...but the degree of trauma is so vastly different...incomparably different...I don't really think they can be related at all...

I totally agree. I would never circ'ed but I pierced dd's ears (and regret it :() because we are from Chile and we didn't know better at that time, but I will never do this again. It bothers me that people use it to their convenience, they say "yes I think circ'ing is horrific but piercing is ok" (just because they did it) I pierced and dont think its ok. not as barbaric and cruel as circumcising, but still not ok.

[NatureMama3]

I can see where the comparsion comes in...both are cosmetic, both are painful and unnessocary.

Circ is much more damaging, IMO, but my reasons for not piercing my dd's ears are similar (on a smaller scale) to my reasons for not circ'ing any future boys. I don't want to make that decision for her.
:thumb

One of the things that helped me understand why NOT to circ (I used to be a sheeple! I circ'd one of my twins. :() was the ear-piercing thing. I don't have pierced ears, few of my family/friends do. When I contemplated how it would be to have had my parents make that choice FOR me, the light went on :duh and I understood about circ.

[hummingbear]

That said, I definitely think putting tiny holes in a person's body is in a whole different realm from cutting off a functioning piece of a person's body.

Phew!!!!
Someone finally said this. There may be some similar issues such as pain, conformity, gender treatment by society, but amputating something is drastic!!!!!

[MelissaEvans]

Wow... my thread got resurrected. =)

The feeling that ear piercing is a 1 and circ is a 10 is why I was so confused that my mom was OK with circ but not with piercing. It makes no sense whatsoever. On the other hand, she's starting to come around. She mentioned how with her second son, the nurses took him away from her and put him back on the circumstraint to let the wound air out. He was screaming bloody murder and she was ticked. When she related the story she commented, "it's bad enough he had to go through it in the first place..." I'm not sure if she was saying that to appease me (it was hard to offer too much sympathy when she told me she knowingly had her both her baby's genitals mutilated, she might have seen it on my face) or is she is genuinely feeling regret for having her sons cut. In any case, she's never tried to convince me to hurt my baby so I guess it could be a lot worse.

[kavamamakava]

Yeah, you're right. They're both costmetic and painful and done without the permission of the owner of the body part. I guess I think ear peircing is pretty normal, but I wouldn't have done it to my kid if he ended up being a she. I think an anoying part of this conversation was that I wanted my ears peirced for a *long* time, but mom wouldn't let me until I was 12 and I could take care of 'em. (Like a 10 year old can't, but whatever, she had to be in control.) And just how she was OK with circ, but not this. A huge double standard protecting girls from something (I think) a good chunck of them do later (not that it's OK for mom to do it for them, please don't get me wrong) but not protecting a boy's genitals. Kinda rambling, I hope that makes sense. I think that most girls wouldn't be as mad about having their ears peirced later in life as men could be angry about missing part of their penis. And if the girl does get mad, she can just not wear earings and it's really hard to tell. It affects boys a lot more. Just my guess, I could be totally off base.

~Melissa
Right. Because earrings on a girl child are "slutty" and circumcision on a boy child is "clean". Whatever.
Signed,
The girl who asked and her mother let her get her nose pierced at age 4.

[mermommy]

I can see where the comparsion comes in...both are cosmetic, both are painful and unnessocary.

Circ is much more damaging, IMO, but my reasons for not piercing my dd's ears are similar (on a smaller scale) to my reasons for not circ'ing any future boys. I don't want to make that decision for her.


ITA

ear piercing is a personal choice one can do or not.
It's entirely up to the family.

I'm sorry, I just find your phrasing highly ironic. By choosing to pierce your babies ear/ears they lose that ability to make that personal choice.

[TigerTail]

ot- my ear cartilage (and nose) piercings have healed completely, but my lobes' second holes i never use are still open. (navel is still open, but 16 not 14 gauge anymore, lol. i tested recently.) everything else has healed up, even the nipples i'd had for many many years (back when piercing was kinky, not trendy. i'm glad, as a bfing aquaintance did mention milk squirting out the holes!) given time, cartilage heals up fine.

btw, my dd asked for 'em at 2 and got 'em, didn't even cry. imagine a male toddler asking to be circ'd. i don't think so. any comparisons, imho, are stretching it. but no, i don't do infants. (and while i think 2 was an ok age of ear piercing consent, if my toddler sons went nuts and decided they wished to be circ'd, i'd have to say 'no'.)

ok, i broke my posting moratorium for this one, lol. i'm still officially on a break, so, carry on (and hey to all my old buds here, keep fighin' the good fight.)

suse

[loving-my-babies]

ear piercing is a personal choice one can do or not.
It's entirely up to the family.

don't mean to pick on you, but this sounds like when people say "CIO: whatever works for the family" or "circumcision" whatever works for the family" I disagree. yes, I pierced my dd's ears, but I regret it (I forgave myself though) and I think it is the same concept as circ'ing, except less cruel and torture, but still going against child rights, IMO.