time outs

[kaje62]

I am trying to decide how I feel about time outs. There is a book called Time In that I have been reading.

[kaje62]

here is a link to the time-in book

http://www.parent-ed.com/toc_time.html

[fishy]

i KNOW i will be in the minority here, but i dont personally like time-outs. i dont think they teach anythign but taht mom can stop a behavior. they teach that you shoudlnt do something b/c youll get in trouble. id rather have my child not do something bc he doesnt want to or bc its 'wrong' than bc of a fear of punishment.

and besides that, i sure wouldnt want to 'get' a time-out. why? bc i would feel shamed, belittled, angry and probably stupid. i dont want to give that to my child.

heres another book to check out on the subject: Punished by Rewards by alfie kohn
http://www.alfiekohn.org/books/pbr.htm

[sparklemom]

fishy, you may well be in the minority, but i'm right in there with you! excellent post and i second your comments. we also never use time outs for the same reasons you mentioned.

punished by rewards is a very good book.

:thumb :thumb :thumb

[kaje62]

I am with you too. That is why I started this thread cuz I want alternatives and do not want to do time outs. My dad did them and I hated them. So degrading! I will check out that book.

[untomySelf]

I agree fishy one ;)

Naomi Aldort has some great articles on the Natural Child project site too

If we get a handle on our own control and power issues, time outs become insane to a conscious person.

[Embee]

I am also planning to avoid time-outs in my discipline... have so far that is. You may be interested in reading "Kids Are Worth It" by B. Coloroso. It talks about natural/reasonable consequences and give alternatives to time-outs. Very well written...

[fishy]

i have to say i am surprised (and pleased) to see so many people not in favour of time outs. :)

i agree with what you say, Self ;) it is really about our own control issues, isnt it!

[oncewerewise]

I use time-outs for myself:) but not for my dds. Although sometimes if I can tell my oldest needs a few minutes of down time, I will take her off somewhere where she can quiet down by herself. With my oldest, she needs to be by herself sometimes to calm down. Which I can relate to. Sometime when I'm upset I want to be held and sometimes I want to be alone. I think I'm pretty good at reading which kind of upset she is. We don't call it a time-out though. And, with other behaviour, I generally subscribe to the ignore bad behaviour, praise good behaviour philosophy and discuss situations in a way that evokes empathy towards others.

My two cents.

Peace.

[nuggetsmom]

I also use time outs for myself. I love them for myself. But I don't really plan to use them with DD except in sports.:wink

[monkeysmommy]

I also use time outs for myself! When I feel myself about to yell at dd I remove myself for a few moments to take some deep breaths...

I saw a link once, can't remember where or who, but this woman taught at a pre-school, and instead of giving time outs, she gave the child a very specific task that had a definate ending- like put all these beads on this string, for instance. It served the same function - it allowed the child to focus her mind and calm down, but without punishing or humiliating the child. Then when the child had completed the task, she would sit down and talk to the child about why her behavior was wrong. She also said that sometimes a child would finish the task, and then undo it so they could do it again because they weren't ready to talk yet.

I thought this was brilliant.

[LaLaLuna]

monkeysmama- that IS brilliant; I'm going to try it with ds1.

I've taken time-outs for myself. I'm the type of personality, when I get mad and lose my temper it takes me a while to cool down. If the kids are coming at me in that amazingly relentless way they have I just have to separate myself from them so I don't do something regrettable!

The only time we've used time outs with the kids is when ds1 blows his stack, which he does on a regular (tho getting less frequent) basis. It's like he winds himself into a frenzy sometimes, picking a fight and pushign til he gets it. now when dh and I see that coming we put him in his room - he still blows his stack but at least he's not taking us with him when he does it. As soon as he blows, it's like the re-set button gets pushed. He's fine. he just needs time alone to have that emotional hurricane. We don't use it as a threat; more like a "looks like you need some time to yourself for a few" situation

(boy- I realize this makes up read like a family with anger management problems! It's not that bad, really! :o )

[kaje62]

monkeysmommy, that sounds like time-in...Cool!

[Embee]

Brilliant indeed! I think I may give it a whirl as well! I'm much less concerned about DS "thinking over what he's done wrong" and much more concerned about calming him down so that we can talk about it rationally, all the while keeping his dignity in tact! Excellent advice. Thanks for sharing!

[untomySelf]

Right Embee and the chances of him "thinking what hes done over" are pretty freakin slim. (How ridiculous)
More accurately, he is there confused and alone and creating his defense mechanism around not being heard and honored.

[Liz]

Fishy, you're in the majority here. I don't use time outs. I just finished reading "How to talk so kids will listen and listen so kids will talk". It's not my style of book (a little too self helpie) but I agree with everything they say. They are totally against time outs for all the reasons you have mentioned.

My SIL uses time outs all the time with her six year old daughter. She is a very emotional girl who does everything to the utmost so she's either laughing and playing boisterously or completely losing it over some frustration. In my SIL's defence she really tries to help her daughter deal with these frustrations but she will eventually put her in a time out. She does it calmly but it is still very much a punishment. It just doesn't make sense to me, why does she think this will work? Punishing a child for not being able to handle some situation? I know my SIL is very frustrated by her daughter's behaviour and she has spoken to her teacher about it and is seeking answers but it doesn't seem to occur to her that the time outs might be part of the problem. I am being very careful not to step on any toes but I really think she needs to try a different tack.

[NoraB]

I used to think time-outs would be an effective discipline tool until I read Positive Discipline. Now I realize that time-outs are often used as punishment, and don't really work as such. The book suggests using time-out in a positive way. That is, if the child needs to cool off, tell him/her that s/he looks like she needs some space and have her/him go to her room. The idea to to say it in a respectful and nonpunitive way. Tell him/her to listen to music, play w/ a toy, read a book, or whatever might make him/her feel better; then s/he can come out when s/he's ready. I like that idea much better than "You hit your brother. Go have a time-out!" KWIM?

[TiredX2]

NoraB---

I have been doing that with DD (4) lately with really good results. I tell her "go to your bed" (which is our bed, but anyway...) but she knows she can come back whenever she is ready. If that means she gets halfway up the stairs and comes back, great. If she stays there reading to herself or playing for 15 minutes thats great too. Its a wonderful way to give her some time away from DS (20 months). She won't do it herself, but she so *needs* it.

I just put the book "Time-Ins" on hold at our library and am looking forward to reading it!

Kay

[alixzara]

This is a question that's been plaguing me, too...

I, however, am pretty clear on time outs. They don't work. They isolate, ostracise, and give the child NO tools whatsoever to handle the strong feelings they have. (Heck, even as adults *we sometimes don't know how to handle our emotions, so how can they?)

I'm sorry if this is a hijack, but I've got a dilemma related to this topic. If it's out of place, just tell me "Hey! go start your own thread!" and I won't be offended :D

My dh and I have no family nearby to help out when we get worn out. I'm a WAHM and after 2.5 years of cosleeping, breastfeeding (still going strong), and positive parenting (on an *ideal day), we need a little bit of a break. I registered my dd in a 2 morning a week MMO for the fall. (BTW, we do plan to homeschool in the future)

I have only one problem: they do time outs. The child goes alone and sits for 2-3 mins until whatever. :rolleyes: I don't necessarily think my dd will go through this, but she'll be 3 so it's not outside the realm of possibility for goodness sakes. :) I don't want her to endure that, nor do I want her to witness it.

I'm not sure what to do. I need a break, and the program looks pretty good otherwise. Oy. Care to share your opinions?

TIA!!!!

[alixzara]

This is a question that's been plaguing me, too...

I, however, am pretty clear on time outs. They don't work. They isolate, ostracise, and give the child NO tools whatsoever to handle the strong feelings they have. (Heck, even as adults *we sometimes don't know how to handle our emotions, so how can they?)

I'm sorry if this is a hijack, but I've got a dilemma related to this topic. If it's out of place, just tell me "Hey! go start your own thread!" and I won't be offended :D

My dh and I have no family nearby to help out when we get worn out. I'm a WAHM and after 2.5 years of cosleeping, breastfeeding (still going strong), and positive parenting (on an *ideal day), we need a little bit of a break. I registered my dd in a 2 morning a week MMO for the fall. (BTW, we do plan to homeschool in the future)

I have only one problem: they do time outs. The child goes alone and sits for 2-3 mins until whatever. :rolleyes: I don't necessarily think my dd will go through this, but she'll be 3 so it's not outside the realm of possibility for goodness sakes. :) I don't want her to endure that, nor do I want her to witness it.

I'm not sure what to do. I need a break, and the program looks pretty good otherwise. Oy. Care to share your opinions?

TIA!!!!

[untomySelf]

I'm not sure what to do. I need a break, and the program looks pretty good otherwise. Oy. Care to share your opinions?
It depends how much this bothers you I think.

I would pull my child out of anything like that. Id shop for other caregivers.
Are there any caregivers you and your dd know that might be available for a fee?

[LaLaLuna]

alixzara; could you find out if there are any parent-child co-ops in your area? We started our kids at one when they were three and the discipline philosophy was pretty much in line with ours; teaching kids to resolve conflicts rather than just take punitive action.

http://www.coopschools.com/np_builder.cgi?visitor

This is a link I found on the OR parent/child coop site- it might help.

Also, what about a waldorf school? I know they do 2-morning-a-week preschools for younger kids that are very gentle and nurturing. Pricey, but sometimes they offer partial scholarships.

[janhunt]

See "The Case Against Time-out" by Dr. Peter Haiman on my Natural Child Project site at http://www.naturalchild.org/guest/peter_haiman.html We've had lots of great feedback on this article.

Jan Hunt, Director
Natural Child Project
http://www.naturalchild.org

[sparklemom]

GREAT site!!!!!!

[Aster]

I :love the natural child site. That was the first place that i read that time-outs are harmful to children. When i read that article, it totally clicked. We're not into using punishment at all.

Lalaluna~ i'm interested in what you're saying about parent-child co-ops. That sounds like such a wonderful kind of program. I cant get the link to work right now though...i guess i'll try it again later.

[irishgreengables]

Interesting thread.

My children have been home 6 weeks now, after bringing them home from Haiti through adoption. They are 23 months (ds) and 3.5 years (dd). When they first came home, our daughter had more tantrum time than she did non-tantrum time. It was horribly difficult. Sometimes, all we could think to do was to put her in her brother's crib (there for the state laws of adoption, although we family bed) and leave the room. We felt horrible about isolating her, but it would have been worse to hit her. To be honest, there were times when I put her in there just so I wouldn't lash out. I was so angry and tired and frustrated. I could barely communicate with her and she would be kicking and screaming and spitting etc. It was a tough first few weeks.

But we didn't feel right about this. We didn't feel good about isolating her and we didn't want her to feel like she wasn't allowed to be angry about all the upsets in her life (and there have been many...her being ripped out of her comfort zone and brought here being one of them). Once we felt like we had a bit more self-control, we began searching furiously for other methods. At the same time, I noticed that dd seemed very depressed.

So we initiated a cuddle chair. For a few days, many times a day, when she was not tantrumming, I would say, "Let's sit in the cuddle chair together." So , ds, dd, and I would all go sit and snuggle. Then, about a week ago, I started taking her there with me when she was losing control. I would say, "I see you are angry/frustrated/etc. (all in her language of Creole)...would you like to sit with mamma in the cuddle chair?" 100% of the time, she says yes. And 100% of the time, she calms down pretty quickly, we snuggle and she chooses when to leave. Since intiating this method, we are so much happier; dd is no longer showing signs of depression,. but is such a happy girl, and her behavior is incredible. Our social worker did our post visit today and could not believe how well she was doing and how attached they both are. She BTW, is very pro-family bed and agreed with me that the fb has a lot to do with it.

Anyhow, I just wanted to share my experience in moving out of time-outs and ask if anyone else has used this instead of time-outs. How does it work for you? What do you think of the cuddle chair?

Peace,
Paula

[janhunt]

Paula - That's great that you found a positive altternative that works for you and your child. You are validating her feelings, you are both taking time out together, and it wasn't set up as a punishment, but was started when things were going OK. This is wonderful.

Cuddle chairs in general make me somewhat uneasy, though, because I've seen other parents turn them into "holding session chairs". Obviously this is not what you are doing.

What I often suggest as an alternative to time-out for the child is a time-out, outside, for both parent and child: "When this happens, I feel frustrated. I think we could both use a break. Would you like to go for a walk?" That kind of request, as long as there is no sense at all that the child is being punished (as long as walks aren't limited to difficult situations) and it is absolutely clear that the child has a choice about going or staying, can give the helpful message that sometimes in life it's good to take a breather. And a change of scenery often does wonders for everyone.


[Admin note - please post your articles here on the board to share with the Mothering community rather than post links to pages on your website. Thanks! ~Cynthia]

[secretsis]

Time-outs are one more of the number of techniques us by Behavioral Psychologist. therefore it is most always used out of contest.
for a time-out to be effective; it has to be given within five seconds of the action you are trying to change. therefore you have to have an extremely control enviroment .

and there is not such a rule of a minute per year of life(1 minute for a year old or 2 minutes for a2 yeard old)

it should only last few seconds enough to interupt the patern in the behavior. in other words just by picking up your child and walking away to show him a bird at the window will do.

the way most people think of a time-out is not correct. it does not have to isolated the child or bellitle him or her.

I do not use time-outs because i am not in alaboratory running an expermint with my child.

I am here to learn and respect him for what he is my son.

I have not read any of the book sited on the previos posts i just have few years in the study of Psychology.

[ja mama]

We call our system time outs but it's not like the traditional lock 'em in their room thing. They simply have to leave the room until they are happy, nice, ready to listen, ready to play nice with the balls...etc They can choose where they go, what they do there, and when they come back. When they do return its to a happy greeting from me "I'm so happy you're ready to share" or whatever needs to be said. What's funny is my 3.5 yo will ask me "Mom, are you having a hard time? I can make it better for you or you will need a time out" and he says it so nonchalantly I know he gets it. It works here.

[mamacate]

OK, let's see if I can communicate this in a way that makes sense.

My twins are 18 months old. My son has always had a lot of bites in him. He started biting when he got his first teeth and it has been better and worse and better and worse again since then, but always present. There are times, like recently, which yes, may be related to more stress in the family but nothing horrible, when his biting is really bad. I need to be in arm's reach at ALL times in order to prevent him from biting his sister. I went to the bathroom the other day and they went into the other room while I was in there (they are welcome to hang out with me while I go but chose not to) and he bit his sister 3 times, very hard, on her back as she tried to climb up into the high chair (there are two but the one she was getting into is "his"). We do all the things recommended--honor the impulse, explain the problem, give alternatives, encourage empathy, etc. But the biting continues and it's SERIOUS (he bites me too, a lot, and it's not just a little nip--his sister gives those sometimes--it's a hard, deep, sharp, sometimes blood-drawing bite that bruises black blue yellow and green and usually lasts for a week).

I have tried everything and my partner last week said she wanted to try time outs and while I don't think they're going to work and I do worry about the effects (though honestly I don't think it's truly damaging), I didn't fight her on it because, well, I don't have any solutions. And, please don't jump all over me, I know he's too young, etc., it does seem to be helping, a little.

BTW, our version of time out is that we go with him to the corner of the room everyone is in and stand with him and explain all the above stuff but we do keep him there in the corner for about 30 seconds--as the above poster mentioned, long enough to break the action--even if he wants to go back. During this time I'm also holding a screaming, just bitten child, trying to comfort her.

I feel like biting and hitting need some sort of negative consequences, don't you think? I feel like his biting is so out of control that I need to do something to put a stop to it.

Any thoughts? Please go easy on me, I'm doing my best! Also, please remember that I have twins so things that work with singletons might be harder to apply in my case, not that I'm not open to them.

Thanks!

Cate

[Embee]

Hi Cate,

Oh, the biting! I'm not sure how much I can help, our biting phase (although pretty intense) was fairly short-lived although occasionally he still bears those teeth once and again... The following is an excerpt from my post on the thread, "just bite her back." Maybe there will be something in here you can use?

*begin excerpt* Biting: normal, much more common than some would have you think, and most importantly, will pass. Hang in there.

DS went through a biting phase at about 20-21 months. He would become quite frustrated at this age with toys or playmates and was not very verbal at the time. Biting seemed to release frustration. Thankfully, due to my watchful eye and quick reflexes, I was his first and only victim (there were several potential victims). When he went in for a chomp on a playmate, this is what I did:

I took him away from the action and held him on my lap. I then said this: "You are frustrated with Johnny, he took the toy you were playing with, and that made you feel mad. It's OK to feel frustrated and mad. It's NOT OK to bite him because biting hurts." I then offered him something he could bite (an old teether for example). I did this four times and never again. It's been a year or so. At the time, being that he wasn't verbal, it was apparent he really felt the need to bite (HARD!) to release the tension. Fact is, I bit in the very same fashion as a kid. I could totally understand this need, and decided that rather than trying to stop the behavior altogether, just give him a safe alternative.

DS lost interest in general, hasn't gone in for the chomp in a year or so. Very occasionally, if he's very tired and very frustrated, he'll bite one of his toys. He's verbal enough now that we're working on words but I think it will be still some time before this is an adequate mode of frustration release. Heck, as an adult it still feels pretty inadequate at times. He seems to prefer one long, very loud scream now, to which I say, "you sound really frustrated and mad." He usually just looks at me, nods and moves on... *end excerpt*

I feel that addressing the emotion behind the act is important. Also, giving him a safe alternative was key. Once DS had an official "you can bite this" item, he seemed more relaxed about the whole deal. If he's biting frequently, keep one in every room, the diaper bag, the car... I never needed most of mine, but it was nice to always have one available just in case.

Best of luck!

[janhunt]

My article "Looking Past the Behavior" discusses a biting incident, with suggestions on how to respond in such situations. I hope this is helpful:


In a recent essay on a family website, a mother related an incident that she felt she had not handled well. She had been hugging her husband in the living room, and their toddler son came over to them and bit her on the leg. She picked him up, but worried that she was reinforcing the biting. She then told him "in a soft-spoken but firm voice", that "you cannot bite people. It hurts them. You hurt my leg when you bit me. Please do not bite again." Three days later she saw it this way:
"I can finally see what I should have done. I should have been firm and consistent from the outset, not letting guilt or anger warp my direction. I should have gotten down face-to-face with him - not picking him up - and told him firmly never to bite again. Then I should have left him alone, not in anger or abandonment, but in gravity, to let the message sink in. I can see it clearly now -- but in the whirl of split-second decision making and the error of guilt I bungled."

Yet both of her responses - the one she employed and the one she wished she had used - left me with some troubling questions: How can a parent ignore her own feelings of guilt and anger? Could she have honestly expressed the anger she felt from being physically hurt? Does refusal to pick up a child who is obviously upset give him the message that he will be loved only when he is "good"? Will he learn to have compassion and understanding for others who are having "bad" feelings? How can one "leave alone" a child without "abandoning" him? Is she rationalizing her actions by doublespeak? And, most important, what has she learned from this incident? And what has he learned? The next time her son bites her, will she be able to talk with him about the angry, jealous feelings which led to the biting? Will he know how to communicate those feelings in a way that will help him to have his needs met? I agree that parents should be consistent and try to avoid giving confusing messages to our children. But what should we be consistent about? What are the most helpful messages we should give?

One of the most important principles of parenting is that the feelings behind a child’s behavior must be recognized, accepted, understood, and openly dealt with, before the behavior can change. Until that happens, the unwanted behavior - or behavior even less welcome to the parent - will only continue. How could it be otherwise? It is the same with adults, after all. If we "misbehave" toward our partner, but he or she makes no effort to understand and accept the feelings which brought about that behavior, and doesn’t hear the message we are trying to send, we will continue to try to express those feelings in the same, or even less effective and less welcome ways.

The mother’s first reaction, to pick up her son and tell him gently not to bite, and her second reaction, to leave him alone, may have been well-intended, but they are both incomplete and ineffective. Discipline, whose Latin root means "to teach", is not about rewarding or punishing; it is about helping the child to learn new skills. Appropriate, loving, and effective messages to a "misbehaving" child have three elements:

Reassuring the child that his feelings are important, and have been heard and taken seriously, through full, loving attention. Without this message, he will feel rejected and misunderstood, and those feelings will only lead to further unwanted behavior.

Informing the child that the behavior in question is not the best way to have his needs met. Without this message, he will miss important, valid learning about the needs of others.

Modeling the preferred behavior to show the child what more appropriate and effective behavior would look like, so that in the future he can have his needs met in an easier and more productive way. Without this message, he will be limited to the same behaviors he has already tried, and little will change.
With all three elements in mind, the mother in our story may have picked up her son and said "Ouch! No biting - that hurts! I can see that you’re upset, but I want you to use words, not teeth: "Mommy, I want a hug too." Even if the child is too young to repeat the words or to remember to use them next time, repeated reminders like this will eventually give him new and better tools to use in having critical needs met.

When we are careful to respond with all three elements in place, we give these underlying messages: "All human beings have feelings. Feelings are not "good" or "bad"; they are normal, valid, and important. I love you enough to stop and really pay attention to what it is you’re trying to tell me, in the only way you can tell me in this moment, at this age, and in these circumstances. I do not like being bitten any more than you would like it. At the same time, I understand that you would not have done this unless you were feeling angry/ sad/ upset/ worried/ disturbed about something. I take your needs and feelings seriously, and I’ll help you to find better ways to express your feelings so that everyone’s needs are met."

Such an approach is the most effective, and indeed the only way to ensure that unwanted behavior will change for the better, long-term. In the story we began with, biting was clearly the only means this child had at his disposal at that moment, with all of his previous experience and his current feelings and needs, to try to communicate something important to his mother. Reacting solely to the behavior, while ignoring the feelings behind it, is a common response by parents who were treated this way in their own childhood. It’s time to make changes.

One of my Parenting Cards sums it up this way: "Look past the behavior... what is your child feeling?" When we focus on a child’s needs and feelings, rather than the specific behavior we wish to change, we can then truly communicate our love for our child. That the behavior will then improve is almost a side issue. As Mozart wrote, "Love, love, love, that is the soul of genius." It is also the soul of parenting.

© Jan Hunt