LDS mama's #11

[Mollie]

here is our new thread! hope everyone is having a great day! it is a beautiful day here, and we are getting ready to go to the park, got to get out of the house for a little while! :love

[klg47]

Have any of you put together a package of books for expectant mothers? I guess a 'package' would probably cost a lot, but let's assume it's affordable. Please add to my list, make suggestions, etc.

Baby Book -- "The Baby Book" by Dr. Sears
AP Book -- Katie Allison Granju's Attachment Parenting (I haven't read this, but heard it is at least as good as Dr. Sears)
Sleep book -- "the no-cry sleep solution" by Elizabeth Pantley
Breastfeeding book -- "The Womanly Art of Breastfeeding" ??? Is this good? I have never read it.
Magazine -- "Mothering", of course!
Birth/Labor Book -- there are too many! "The Thinking Woman's Guide to a Better Birth" is wonderful. Any other favorites?
Pregnancy Book -- I don't know about any. Is Dr. Sears' book good? I know a lot of AP/natural moms don't like What to Expect.
Parenting -- I know there is one Christian book by an LDS author. Also Dr. Sears' books.

Please add, expand, make suggestions, & etc!

Katie:hippie

[Laurel]

Mine are all parenting books:

"The Discipline Book" by Dr. Sears--a must have!

"The Family Virtues Guide" by Linda Kavelin Popov

"Everyday Blessings: The Inner Work of Mindful Parenting" by Jon and Myla Kabat-Zinn (this book is pretty heavy, also it might be kind of far "out there" for some conservative LDS parents, as the authors are Buddhist and that colors their writing--but I learned so much from this book, and it's very AP too)

"Kids, Parents, and Power Struggles" by Mary Sheedy Kurcincka (she wrote Raising Your Spirited Child)

"Teaching Your Children Joy", "Teaching Your Children Responsibility", and "Teaching Your Children Sensitivity" by Linda and Richard Eyre (LDS authors)



On another list I'm on, I asked people to list their favorite parenting books, and I was almost the only person who doesn't care for and constantly use "What to Expect the First Year"! I think we need to work to replace the influence of that book--Sears' "Baby Book" rules!

[ldsapmom]

I agree with Lisa'a about the Sear's Discipline Book.

I also love (and just got my signed by the author) Pregnancy, Birth, and Your Growing Latter-Day Saint Family, by Kathleen Tooley Johnson. It is the only AP-type book I have ever seen in the LDS realm of books.

[Beth]

:)

[KindRedSpirit]

A great pregnancy book is "Birthing from within" by Pam England and Rob Horowitz.It touches on any kind of experience one may have-a great catch-all,and easy to read.It also has some interactive elements like birth art and so on....
You may consider including a journal of some sort,or one of the best gifts I ever got-A disposable camera and a little photo album,holds maybe 20 photo's.(we used it at the birth-absolutely priceless.)

[KatherineinCA]

"The Continuum Concept" is probably the book that has affected me the most. It helped me turn whole-heartedly to a more AP-style of parenting.

[KindRedSpirit]

Oh yes,I totally second the continuum concept!:thumb

[Drewsmom]

Woops, sorry that's totally weird. I started a new thread...I thought...but I guess something happened or I deleted it by accident.

I love The Pregnancy and The Birth Book by Dr. Sears and definitely recommend those all the time. I love them b/c out of the books that I received I always feel like Dr. Sears is more even handed than some of the other authors who come off sounding a little too zealous than what I was ready for at the time. I was also given the Birthing From Within Book nad The Immaculate Disception but I would be choosy in who you give those to.

We had our ultrasound today. It's always fun to see the baby. I know ultrasounds are controversial amongst the natural birthing crowd but from my perspective I would like to know if there is spina bifida or not since there are some in utero procedures that can be done to correct it. We didn't want to know what the sex was. But I thought I saw some little boy parts. My husband thinks that he didn't and he was looking harder since he would like to know. :) This one we'll definitley wait to find out. So fun! Either way is great. I was hoping for a girl at first but I think having a little brother may be a good idea too.

[Beth]

Drewsmom, how far along are you? I cannot wait to get my u/s. I think there are many APers who get u/s. I have been reading the Nov/Dec Mamas thread and it seems there are alot of moms that have already had an u/s. I had one at 10 weeks b/c I had bleeding one night and cramping way bad. I thought I was going to miscarry but then after about two hours it stopped. A few days later I went to have the u/s to see if baby was okay. My little bean (that's how big baby was) was doing well with a strong 180ppm heartbeat. There was a little pool of blood in my uterus outside the little sac, that the dr said was probably the cause of the bleeding. He said I didn't have to worry about it.

Anyway, my mother is a midwife and she feels strongly that u/s are intrusive to the baby and shouldn't be performed on a healthy mama. She and I differ on that one. I don't think just one u/s is bad for me or baby. I would like to be surprised when I deliver but dh says no way. He says it is a just as much a surprise at 20 weeks as it is at 40 weeks.:rolleyes: :love Gotta love him. And I do.

Dd#1 promises baby is a boy. She has a cousin that has all girls in her family and she said that is too many girls. Last prenatal appt. my midwife asked dd#1 how she knows baby is a boy. Midwife said, "Did you have a dream that he is a boy?" Dd#1 said no. Midwife asked," Did Heavenly Father tell you?" Dd#1 said matter of factly, "yep." I am not one to argue with that. She is a great girl.:love

Gosh,looks like I need to become a reader. All those great books and I haven't read any of them.

Honestly, I tried reading Birthing From Within, but it wasn't my cup of tea. I only got through the first chapter or so. It was really hard for me to read.

I have Dr. Sears Baby Book and that has been helpful in the past. I need to use it more though. Maybe when this baby comes.

My mom gave me Sign with Baby for Christmas. It is a sign language program for infants. I am so excited to learn it and use it with this new baby. Dd#1 and dd#2 have learned a little bit of ASL (American Sign Language) but we don't use it often enough.

On the subject of teaching children second languages, we have friend that has only spoken to his daughter in Spanish since she was about 20-22 months. He served his mission in South American. He visited with his former mission pres. after his first daughter was born and his pres. said that he was doing a his daughter a great disservice by not teaching her spanish while she is a toddler.

I just thought that was interesting. Gotta go get my girls up fromt their nap.

[Bekka]

I'm a little strange, but my favorite birth books have still been Spiritual Midwifery and now Ina May Gaskin's new birth book.

Other ones:

A Good Birth, A Safe Birth
Gentle Birth Choices

and of course
Womanly Art of BF and
Nursing Mother's Companion

[ldsapmom]

I can say if I had picked up a copy of Birthing from Within when pregnant with my first, I would have thought it was WAY out there. But I did read it while pregnant with my second. By then my natural inclination toward AP had been well-established (while pregnant with #1 I swore I would NEVER co-sleep;)). I was getting scared my birth would be as bad or worse than Jacob's. I really needed a way to cope, especially that last 2 months. Birthing from Within really helped me explore my feelings and fears and help me put them into perspective. So yes, it is still a bit out there, but it helped me more this last time than any other birth book I had read.

I also love The Five Love Languages of Children, Kids Are Worth It!, Raising Your Spirited Child, The Irreducable Needs of Children, Try and Make Me, The Continuum Concept, as well as the Sears almost-companion one to that, Creative Parenting.

And of course The Womanly Art. I also love Spiritual Midwifery. Without Spanking or Spoiling is an excellent choice for husbands or others who don't want to read anything lengthy but need good discipline information.

I could go on and on...those are just some that line my bookshelf...:)

[ldsapmom]

One more to add: Mothering Your Nursing Toddler. Love that one!

[Stacymom]

I have to second the vote for Ina May's Guide to Childbirth, as well as Spiritual Midwifery. I think I read both of htose in a week's time. My birthday was a few weeks ago, and I got some money from mil, and I was so excited to order and buy those books. When dh found out, he said "That's what you're getting?!" I just laughed.

I really liked "Parenting your spirited Child," and the high needs book by Dr Sears. That one literally saved my sanity when dd was tiny and we couldn't figure her out.

I had a hard time making it through the CC. I found it was a little heavy, and just couldn't focus on it. I will probably try again after I get some of my pregnancy brain back. :p

[Drewsmom]

Wow, I'm so so glad to have all these wonderful recommendations of books. I've been wanting some recommendations for a while.

Beth, I'm 21 weeks along. It's funny b/c my measurements agreed to that as well but based on my conception date (which I know for sure when it was) I'm 20 weeks. I'm just telling everyone that my due date is mid-Oct. so they won't bother me with calls the first of oct. :D. Some say that the u/s causes fetal distress. They took the heartrate in the u/s and it wasn't any more raised than it's been in the office but come to think of it those were done using a doppler (which is a form of u/s) so that may be true. I know it made me want to get it done as quickly as possible. Still nice to see the baby's face and parts....so cute!

I went to a program in DC yesterday called, "Time Out" sponsered by Deseret Book. They had speakers like Kathleen Barnes, Mary Ellen Edmunds, Elder Ballard (last minute speaker), etc. It was so great. It was an all day seminar. I learned so much. I even saw two moms there with slings and lots of nursing moms (we sat in the nm section since all the other seats were gone)! Bad place to put a pregnant/emotional lady while trying to listen to a conference. It was so great to see all these moms loving their babies (there were a lot there at the conference). It was also a good reminder that newborns/babies just take a lot of rocking, nursing, comforting that I'm not alone when I feel like my whole day is spent bouncing the baby. It was a good mental prep for me.

[Drewsmom]

Happy Sabbath btw. Oh, one other thing. We recently moved into our new townhouse and everyone else is new as well. I was thinking about this problem all day yesterday at the conference hoping to get some answers. Sometimes I have a hard time remembering how to act in situations like this or what HF would have me do.

Our neighbors nextdoor bought their home through the same county program we did (which is income based and we're able to buy them for 1/2 the price that others did...we just have to resell it to someone in the program. It's a way of spreading out subsidized housing into nice neighborhoods). It's a single mom with two teenage sons. They seem to be very irresponsible people though. We don't have a fence up yet and so the boy's friends walk through the back yard and leave their trash there (McD's bags, beer cans), they park their car on the street which is against our HOA rules and just kind of makes it look trashy and then Fri night they had a raging party with very loud music, lots of very interesting looking kids coming into the neighborhood and finally at 1 am (I had to get up at 6:30am for this conference) we called the police for disturbing the peace. It turns out the mom was there and her teenage son who was having a pre-prom party (we found out later) all the kids were drinking. We think she may have been charged as Greg saw a police officer come back the next day.

We're in townhouses so everyone is in extremely close proximity. Even if she had just warned us that they were going to have a party so we could've been aware. We didn't know it was a pre-prom party also. I kind of assumed that it would be like that every weekend. We have really poor luck with neighbors and have run into similar situations before. Part of me says, be a good christian neighbor and don't say anything just suck it up and deal with it and the other part says, no, that's still not acceptable behavior go talk to them. I was going to go over and talk to them vs calling the police but dh didn't want me to go be involved and just filed a "disturbing the peace" complaint. What would you do? I would ideally like to be a friendly neighbor who is a help to her and her sons but it's really hard to relate to people who I feel are not responsible and respectful. I'm just being totally honest but I really do want some constructive advice and am open to it. Any suggestions for what you would do in this situation?

[JuicyPakwan]

Hi,
I think my sister posted about our trouble with my son who has ITP. We are home and he is doing better. It turned out he had a violent allergic reaction to the medication and is now doing better his platelets are back up and he is still anemic but is doing better. He should make a complete recovery from this disorder. Thank you for the concern.
I had a question what is Ina Mae's new book called I would love to have it. I have spiritual midwifery and love it.

[KindRedSpirit]

I just got spiritual midwifery yeserday and this morning i was in bed w/a head cold and read 50 pages already!I so want to buy a bus and caravan to a "Farm"! But I've always been like that and dh thinks I'm crazy--SO WHAT?:) I love it!I was worrying I wouldn't find a good book to get me charged up for this birth,but I found it,yay!Now I have to try and get the house back together,dd has been naked all day,and ds and dh are in swimming trunks from a failed attempt at filling the pool earlier(like 4 hrs ago!)Happy Sunday!:love

Emilyrose- I am so glad to hear things are getting better.

[Mollie]

Emilyrosechild, I"m glad your son is recovering, I know that was scary!

[Drewsmom]

Emilyrosechild- I'm so glad to hear that your son is OK. That must've been very scarey.

About our neighbors, don't worry about it. I'm not proud of the feelings that I have but just trying to be honest so I can get some honest input. But I've received some inspiration like serving others brings loving feelings. I still get confused re: how to deal with problems sometimes b/c I don't think it's Ok when behavior is really out of line. Things like the trash in the yard I've decided vs. being annoyed to just pick it up and not make a big deal out of it. Hopefully they'll notice someday and not throw it there. But I still need to search for ways to serve them and let them know that we're there to be helping hands. Maybe the scripture about reproving betimes with sharpness but showing forth an increase of love can apply in situations even like these.

[KindRedSpirit]

Hey, I was going over some canning and food storage ideas today and I have kindof an odd question for you all.
Say you are pretty far into a disaster situation and your food storage is getting boring.Would(could) you use your own breast milk as a resource?(use it as family milk,in cooking,make cheese or yogurt...?)
I for sure would use it for healing-ear infection,etc...but as for family use,I probably would,depending on my own health,if it looked like this was how we were going to live for a while longer.(I don't think I'd tell anyone what it was though,esp. dh...)

[Beth]

I cannot imagine how much you'd have to produce to feed your whole family (I mean in recipes and all):p

But that is an interesting question/idea.

Yeah I don't think my dh would go for that idea either.:love

[CortLong]

Can I jump in here?!?!

I just signed on and I am an LDS mommy! :)

DH and I were sealed in the Raleigh, NC temple and we have a sweet little daughter, Morgan Ann born Dec. 11, 2001.

I just had a miscarriage, but we will be TTC again in about 1 month.

[Mollie]

Cortlong, welcome!

I'm sorry to hear about your m/c, I know how sad that is. Good luck w/ ttc!

[KatherineinCA]

Welcome, CortLong!

I'm so sorry about your miscarriage. Have you found the Pregnancy & Infant Loss Board here? Lots of love and support is available there. My baby was stillborn six months ago, and I also had a m/c at 10 weeks (1997) and an ectopic pregnancy (1998). Feel free to post here, on the loss board, or PM me if you ever need to talk about your loss.

Love,
Katherine

[Bekka]

Wow, hard to keep up with everyone and new people too!

Welcome to the new people!

Drewsmom, I was going to comment on difficult neighbors last week but that was one of the weeks that being online made me sick so I had to get off after just a few minutes. We had neighbors a couple years ago who would fight in the middle of the night really loud (and possibly abusive) and it woke me up usually on Sunday morning at like 3 am and I couldn't get back to sleep. It wasn't a frequency that was enough to go complain about, but we tried to be friendly outside, etc. So I don't have a lot of suggestions, but support and understanding. Perhaps the situation will improve with kindness and service, as you have suggested. Hang in there.

Re: using breastmilk to make stuff--Dd #1 was sensitive to "cow" products until she was about 15 mos. old, so I tried making breastmilk yogurt so she could have something to eat the days I worked (she didn't take much solids before 11 mos). I inoculated the bacteria in the breastmilk (about 8 oz.) and left it out for a few days. It really should have turned to yogurt except for one thing--breastmilk is living tissue! I expect that those immunity properties killed off all that bacteria and my yogurt didn't work. Perhaps you would have to scald (pasteurize) the milk to "kill" off the helpful white blood cells and other stuff. I never tried again.

Congratulations emily. Um, did I forget anyone? I'll check in again in a few days!

[KatherineinCA]

Emily,

I'm so glad your son is recovering, thanks for letting us know.

[JuicyPakwan]

You guys have probably discussed this before but I was wondering if any of you have ideas for FHE for 3 yrs and under. We have been fairly good about holding regular FHE but it is so difficult with small children. Also my daughter started walking funny on her toes. She folds her toes completely under so she is walking on the second knuckle of her toes. It doesn't seem to hurt her but it looks gross and I'm wondering if it will do damage and if I should stop her.

[leavesarebrown]

Happy Sunday everyone. I'm new on this thread. A friend in Seattle recommended it (mothernurture in this discussion board I believe). I'm in Nothern Virginia, too (where are you, Drewsmom? We're near the Spfld metro.) I have a 3 1/2 yr old son and a 4 month old daughter. Home from church today 'cause I caught a bug (flu) either at our family reunion yesterday or play group Thursday. So my husband is teaching my Sunday School lesson for me. Anyway... Meredith Small's Our Babies Ourselves is what got us into attachment parenting (on top of the examples of two of our older sibs). And I went to a No VA attachment parenting group for the first time last month. Nice to find some like-minded mammas. Also just finished Sear's SIDS book since my daughter is higher SIDS risk due to difficulty coordinating breathing and feeding, apnea ephisodes, and a couple blue spells that landed us in the hospital for several days her first week (after a beautiful, peaceful homebirth which we are SO grateful to have had given the stress of the hospital). The Sears book was VERY affirmative, especially given that many MDs think co-sleeping is a SIDS risk. We believe the opposite, given the effect co-sleeping had on our son in helping regulate his breathing, etc. (in retrospect, he had a little trouble at the start, too, and now seems to have allergy-related asthma, though we're not sure yet). Oh, and I used to walk on my toes exactly like that, too, and my feet are just fine these days. :)

[Drewsmom]

Hi Ldsmama! I'm in Sterling. Too bad traffic is so bad here or it would make it easier to get together but I would still love to meet you. There's another new member mom called Cora'smom that joined a few months ago and I haven't heard from her lately and lost her phone #. She lives in Reston. It would be fun to get together some time.

Thanks so much Bekka for your input with your neighbors that means a lot :).

RasJane do you have the oldest child here? 7 is your oldest right? Is there anyone with any older children? The reason I'm asking is b/c we moved into a new ward and when we were in (long story) our old ward dh hometaught and we became friends with a family whose mother died of cancer. She has 2 girls: 8 and almost 10 who live with their father now (not a member and the parents were divorced before their mom died). They live in our ward and we are kind of taking over for another friend who has been their sort of adoptive mom this past year...this family is moving to Austria. We are going to take them to church and hopefully keep them involved in church. I just want some/any tips on this age group.

About FHE, my friend does something great. They read a short story from the BOM stories or NT stories, etc. and then they do fun little songs and activities that she's gotten from an FHE manual. They're little matching things, coloring nothing necessarily related to a lesson persay but something that their son loves to do.

[KatherineinCA]

Hi, Drewsmom:

My twin son and daughter are 8 1/2. Let me know if you have any specific questions about this age. One suggestion I do have is that you read "When Children Grieve" by John James and Russell Friedman. I highly recommend getting it from your library and skimming through it. It would prepare you so well for talking comfortably with the girls about their mom. Even if she died a long time ago, children still need people in their lives who will talk about their loss with them. The book has very simple suggestions for how to respond when they are missing her, etc. The type of comments where simple word choice makes a big difference.

Let me know what you're wondering about kids this age, I'll be happy to share any insights I may have :) .

And welcome, ldsmama!

[mothernurture]

I'm Kristin, AP mother of Matthew, 3 1/2 and Brooke Lauren, 10 months. I am new to this board but recommended it to ldsmama after I noticed a msg from another AP LDS mom in northern VA. I lived in that area after college (BYU-1992) until 2000 when we moved back to Seattle with our then 6 month old son. Ldsmama and I became friends in our ward while pregnant with our first babies in 1999. Glad to see you posted ldsmama and found Drewsmom! I was hoping to introduce you (even though I haven't posted yet and don't know Drewsmom personally).. it's exciting to find other AP moms who are also members of the church.

My interest in this board is that I have not had much support for my AP choices within or outside the church. You'd think in an area like Seattle, finding like-minded moms within our wards would be easy... but no so far.

I know of one other AP mom (my former visiting teacher) in the area who I introduced to my midwives at the birth center where I birthed my daughter last summer. My former VTer then chose to birth her first child at the birth center 3 months ago. I was blessed to be her labor support person throughout her labor, birth, and immediate post partum. (I did professional post partum doula work for a year when my son was 2).

I discovered AP while reading the Sears Baby Book when I was 8 months pregnant with my son. I have found very few moms on either coast (except ldsmama!) that I could really relate to in terms of my parenting choices.

We were attachment parents from the start as we parented our high needs baby who had GER (reflux) for a year. It was the longest year of my life. After a less than ideal birth (male OB "attending" at Arlington Hospital) with much medical intervention, we had delayed bonding due to my son being in the NICU for over 24 hours and a long post partum recovery. We had weight gain issues, breastfeeding issues, and no support.

After a year of serious sleep deprivation (our reflux baby couldn't sleep very long and had to sleep upright on my or my husband's chest), I started researching better birth options in case we chose to try to conceive again. With the help of dear friend ldsmama (a childbirth educator and home birthing mama of 2), I learned much about gentle birth options. When ds turned 2, we conceived baby #2 who was born in the water at the Puget Sound Birth Center, 3 wks early on July 27, 2002. It was the most empowering event of my life and the "birth high" was incredible. Bonding was immediate and it brought our entire family closer.

Now, I am back working full time (but from home except a couple mornings a week), and trying to balance the most joyful (and most challenging) job of motherhood with my outside paid employment.

I've struggled to find support for our parenting/birthing choices from moms within (as well as outside) the church. Are there any LDS AP moms out there who live in the Seattle area? (I live on the Eastside). I'd love to hear from you. Having the right support is so important, during pregnancy, birth, and post partum.

[Bekka]

I'm sorry I don't live in Seattle. I tell dh we can live there when we're done here ... I just wanted to make a comment. I am in a WONDERFUL ward that has a lot of student families with just one or two kids. There are a lot of families who at least "partially attachment parent", i.e., baby wearing (baby bjorn is very popular in this community), cosleep for a few months, and quite gentle discipline, responsive parenting. Several of my friends have contacted my midwives group, (who I contacted after learning about them from a couple of friends) and while they probably will never give birth at home, some might even consider a birth center (there isn't one here).

It seems like I haven't known at the beginning that they were "responsive parents" (unwilling to cry it out, etc.), but we got better and better acquainted. I also have become better acquainted with a couple of "older women" who have school aged or adult children and as they talk about their children, I realize that they probably practice some amount of responsive parenting because our "philosophies" line up on a lot of levels.

I just want to say that some of these people have really surprised me, who have turned out to be in this category. It has taken me much time to feel like I'm "surrounded" by people who parent gently, but I feel like if we hear the teachings/guidelines of the prophets and apostles at every GC, and other things written in the scriptures, Ensign, etc., we find that these are principles taught by the Lord, so people are trying to implement them how they can. And people can become AP "converts" too ...

Of course, for some reason, I'm known as the "breastfeeding guru" in my ward, and random women come and ask me questions about breastfeeding ... I'm going to quit rambliing now.

[Drewsmom]

Hi, thank you for the responses. RasJane thanks for the book idea. That will be helpful. Their mom died last year exactly. They were such a help to us Sunday with Andrew so maybe this will take care of itself but what do you do for your 8 year old during Sacrament meeting. Is that an age where you consider them to listen or do you bring activities? I'm trying to remember what their mom did. I think she just had them listen. Maybe, I'll just ask them :).

mothernurture, my first name is Kristen too..just a little diff. spelling. So glad to see you here :D. I'm glad your second birth went so well. I found that I had such a good experience with ds that I'm actually a little worried that things will go so well with this one, but I'm sure they will and I just need to not worry and practice my relaxation techniques. I'm wondering how I can labor at home for as long as possible with ds here. I plan to birth at a hospital again but with midwives this time. But I still would like to stay at home as long as possible.

[mothernurture]

Kristen, thanks for your comments. I am so happy to find some LDS mothers who are attachment parenting too. Getting much needed support makes such a difference especially during the challenging times. Wish I was still in Alexandria so we could get together (with ldsmama). !

Good luck with your second birth. I was able to labor at home for quite awhile before going to the birth center. My mom was here to care for big brother Matthew when it was time for me to get to the birth center. I woke up early on a Saturday morning feeling seriously crampy (had this for last 2 weeks of pregnancy), a bit nauseated, and had to go to the bathroom a lot. Finally, dh gave me a blessing and afterwards, my water broke. I knew for sure it was time. Talked to my midwife on the phone and we headed out to the birth center. I labored in the birthing tub for an hour (seemed like just minutes -- I had been practicing hypnosis for childbirth relaxation techniques for the last month of pregnancy) and then felt an unmistakable urge to push. Brooke Lauren was born after about 20 minutes of pushing. It was amazing. Good luck Drewsmom! Keep us all posted on how you're feeling as your pregnancy progresses so we can offer support.

P.S. can anyone explain the Continuum Concept? I've seen references to it on this thread but don't know anything about it...

[Laurel]

I would really love it if we could discuss The Continuum Concept in more depth. I know a few of you moms love it. I had pretty mixed feelings about it.

Mothernurture, TCC is a book by Jean Liedloff talking about her observations after spending a few years in the rainforests of South America observing the parenting of Indians there. A lot of it is quite similar to AP principles, in that she advocates constant physical contact between mother and baby until the baby is old enough to want to crawl and creep. I think where CC differs from AP is that it is not as child-centered. For example, CC advocates adults going about their work (with babies in sling) but not dropping everything to focus exclusively on the child. There is a recent thread here all about CC, and if I knew how to link threads, I'd do it, but you could search and find it easily. I find CC a little bit hard to explain, but it seems to me that as children grow, they're more left to do their own thing. That sounds negative, but it isn't in the context of the book.

I loved sometings about CC. The book's explanation of what a typical newborn baby in the U.S. endures, as opposed to what a typical newborn should experience, is eye-opening. Of course, I love and agree with everything she says about the need for physical contact--wearing, co-sleeping, nursing, etc. And at the time I first read CC, I needed someone to tell me that it was OK if I didn't spend hours every day playing on the floor with ds. I took the advice to wear him more, but to go about my own daily activities, and that has worked well for both of us. Ds loves to be involved in my chores. I like the permission to be family-centered instead of child-centered all the time. But as time has gone on, I've also needed AP to bring me back a little, to tell me that it's OK if I actually pay attention to my child and do things with him, rather than letting him off to do his own thing all the time.

My main beef with CC is that it's all based on evolution. I still felt like a lot of the conclusions were still valid, but I had to constantly be asking myself if what the author wrote could really fit with gospel doctrine, or if this was a philosophy of man. That got tiring. I just felt like I had to be so careful, because the whole assumption of CC is totally biological, not spiritual. I think I'm more sensitive to this, because my child is adopted, and we have no biological connection. But we are a family and were always meant to be a family. We have a spiritual connection that far transcends any biology. It bugged me that this author spent so much time studying these Indians and trying to apply their ideals to ours, and yet she totally dismissed their religious beliefs.

It seemed to me like these Indians were like Adam and Eve in the garden of Eden--totally innocent. That's nice, but that's not what earth life is supposed to be all about. Adam and Eve were meant to get out of the garden of Eden! The author went on and on about how much happier we'd be if our culture were modeled after theirs, yet I kept thinking that they really weren't filling their eternal potential in their primitive state. I kept thinking that they were experiencing pleasure and some form of happiness, but was it really true joy, the kind of joy that we know comes from experiencing deep pain? Obviously, God has a purpose for all his peoples, and there's a reason why they are the way they are, but I had to wonder what has held these tribes back from progression and growing that other societies have experienced. Which made me have to question everything, including their parenting.

I've been wanting to get this out for a long time. Overall, I'd say that from CC, I gained several really great principles that have definitely impacted my parenting. But there was just too much in there that I had to hold back on.

I would love to hear what others think, especially those of you that have said that you love this book.

[leavesarebrown]

Funny--I'm Lisa also. Two Kristins, two Lisa's. My sis in law recommended CC and I haven't found it either (except on Amazon, and I didn't have the spare cash at the time for it--I meant from the library I couldn't find it). But from what I've heard about it, and also from other sources, agree w/ Lisa (to some extent) that primitivism can sometimes be over-idealized. I had a similar response (in some ways) as I got into yoga. I enjoy the poses for the relaxation, etc. but as I started reading about yoga philosophy realized that its goals (particularly a state of desire-less-ness) are not my goals. But at the same time, I think the fact that the OVERWHELMING majority of the inhabitants of the world have not in this life even heard of Jesus Christ let alone Joseph Smith is a testament to the SPIRITUAL value of life itself as well as the value of the "mundane" activities of finding food and shelter, forming family relationships and caring for one another, and dealing with the difficulties of the same. ALL things are spiritual to God. Evolution included. :-)

[leavesarebrown]

Oh, and good luck w/ your upcoming birth, drewsmom! How soon? Just don't stay at home TOO long. A friend of mine had hers in the car on the way to the hospital. :-) (How quick was your first one?)

[leavesarebrown]

I see--edd in Oct :thumb

[Drewsmom]

Wow, I wasn't meaning to comment at all b/c I'm still trying to get settled in our new home..but Lisa I really liked your thoughts. Thanks also to LDSmama and mothernurture.

That's why I think it's so great to have this LDS thread to see how everyone balances their views on parenting with spiritual beliefs! It's been such a help. My sis. is very into AP philosophy and not active right now so I find that her philosophies are very environmental based fearing that if she doesn't do everything exactly right that her children will be messed up for life b/c of her. And I've thought a lot about the whole idea of everything going back to a primitive state and way to parent being more ideal like discussed in CC. I haven't read it yet though I should preface.

But my views from a gospel perspective and knowing about the atonement of Jesus Christ seem to whisper to me that there is a balance or needs to be. That everything is not nature and everything is not nurture but a combination and includes spiritual. It's so evident by having a child and talking to other mothers that children come with their own personalities. Then I see how parenting can affect a personality esp. now that we're in the toddler years! :eek And I struggle with that every day, some days and moments more than others. But i think that having a gospel perspective helps me to see that I will make mistakes as a parent and other parents do some more than others but eventually it is up to each child to make their own decision and use their agency. That seems to be the beauty of it. I try to remind my sis of this b/c we can't do everything perfectly but we're all trying to live and learn together. This also helps me when I see babies who are being parented in a diff. way than I would choose to parent mine or even birth mine or etc.

But ultimately I'm really grateful for knowledge and to learn from other cultures. I do think that as an AMer. society that we create a lot of social unintimacy (if that's a word) by the mainstream parenting approach. In fact I'm worried about this lately b/c ds is such a senstive, sweet boy that I worry about him getting picked on by the rough boys in the park or playground. Anyone else have this problem? Ironically it's the little girls that he usually likes to play with the most and we shop at a grocery store that many Hispanic people frequent also and I've noticed that their little boys seem to be the same. I know that culturally they're very similar to AP philosophy (co-sleeping, etc).

[Laurel]

Well, thanks for your thoughts so far. It's good, because it helps me to clarify what I'm thinking and trying to put into words. I agree that there is much of value in other cultures, and there is much I don't like about American culture. I think I came across like I was putting down the Yequana culture, when in reality, I see very much in it worthy of emulation. I guess like Drewsmom alluded to, it was that idea of "this is the one perfect culture and if we do it exactly like this, our society will also be perfect". The whole time I was reading CC, I was thinking, "But wait, there is some lacking here, even amidst all the good--no society is perfect." All in all, though, it wasn't the Yequana or their parenting that I had any issue at all with (I loved learning from them!)--it was Jean Liedloff and her "spin" on what she observed. The Yequana I'm sure just do what they do because it feels right. I highly doubt that they themselves believe in evolution or have even heard of it. A researcher from any other religious persuasion or belief system is going to observe according to the bias of their own beliefs. An LDS person in that setting would look at the very same actions and interpret them very differently. The whole redeeming value of the book for me was thinking all along that what the Yequana were doing with their children stood alone, that it surpassed whatever worldly philosophy might be used to explain it. While I didn't agree with the author's *reasons* for why they did the things they did, I could still see that the Yequana had many very valuable ideas for the rest of us. ldsmama, I was a little confused when you said that God sees even evolution as spiritual. I guess while I believe that there are fragments of truth in some parts of the theory of evolution, I've always felt that the theory as a whole was leading us away from our understanding of our nature as children of God.

I'm probably coming across like I really hated this book, but in reality, I liked it, just with these reservations.

Keep talking, I'm really liking all this input.

[leavesarebrown]

Mostly joking based on JS's all spirit is matter/ and all things are spiritual... But as far as evolution goes, the scriptures really don't elaborate on the hows of creation--that not being the point of scripture--just the "why". Nor does the "how" really matter to me, it not being an issue of salvatory importance--beyond knowing that we have divine potential beyond what other animals possess, and that we are not "mere animals" in terms of being "subject" to our biological drives (since we have free will/ intelligence/ blah blah blah). I think it highly illogical that our Heavenly Parents & those who assisted in creation would waste a bunch of time evolving humanity (the clay portion) from another species given the direct route we all know about and participate in. Yet once again, it wouldn't matter one iota to me (or to the fundamental doctrines of the church, IMHO) if biological human evolution were in fact the means of creating the mortal tabernacles of humanity, Adam & Eve being the first free agents, intelligent spirits to inhabit fully "human" sapiens. As far as what I actually believe, I do think evolution within species is fairly factual--i.e. that there is too much evidence of it to call it merely theoretical at this point. The jump species to species, however, I think is another matter. But I'm not a scientist. (just a saint). :D

[leavesarebrown]

Drewsmom, I am TOTALLY with you on this one. Obviously we make parenting choices based on what we think will give our kids the best hope of fulfilling their potential, but no one is perfect, and I am personally SO GLAD there is a Savior to fill in the gaps in SO many ways. HOWEVER, I am, like Kristin (mothernurture) surprised how many mamas in the church fail to see the harmony of nurturing, positive, child-centered (ie AP) parenting with the gospel. I constantly feel like the odd one out. Even though I, too, have (I think) had some positive impact on friends in my ward in terms of quietly encouraging being educated about how we bring our children into the world and supporting family friendly practices in that regard, supporting moms as they make the transition and encouraging breastfeeding (and extended breastfeeding), being supportive of moms who don't want to let their baby cry it out, or kick them out of their bed cold turkey, & etc., I still feel like most of these women I've encouraged are in the category of wanting to be my friend but NOT WANTING ANYONE ELSE TO KNOW ABOUT IT because of my hippy stigma. (Okay, so I cloth diaper, too. WHO CARES?!!)

[mothernurture]

to all of you excellent mamas!!

Thank you for the awesome discussion... glad I spoke up and asked about something I had not heard much about and was curious to know more... you guys are great...

Thank you Laurel for opening up the discussion for us. I appreciate all your (and the other respondents) insights.

I must second your comment ldsmama (Lisa)... "surprised how many mamas in the church fail to see the harmony of nurturing, positive, child-centered (ie AP) parenting with the gospel. I constantly feel like the odd one out." THIS IS MY DILEMMA...

I have not felt much support (except from 2 mamas --ldsmama in northern VA and my VTer in my Seattle ward) within our generation of mothers or older generations (including my own mother), for AP concepts/ideas/philosophies.... I often have felt discouraged by constantly trying to find "common ground" with the women in my wards, east coast and west. I have ended up feeling alienated, marginalized, and just plain lonely for companionship with similar thinkers on issues related to motherhood. Any suggestions out there from fellow AP LDS mothers? (other than to seek out and find the few sources -- motheringdotcommune - that can replenish my reserve of energy)

p.s. Ldsmama --- I'm a hippie too, but then again, you probably already figured that out! (my former-Marine father in law is in town and boy would he be appalled if he knew my peacenik views on the recent war against Iraq).

[Bekka]

Wow. If this is the norm, I am just wondering what it's going to be like when I move (sometime in the next year ...). Maybe I'm actually in the mecca of LDS AP mothering or something ... I would think more maybe of Ithaca than Rochester to be that ...

Actually, I've been more in the category of "I think it's great you do that (EBF) but I could never do it." And I've also noticed there's a difference between people who are from the west as opposed to locals. Just my experience. But I do get funny looks if I start talking about Spiritual Midwifery ... I wonder if people think of me as "hippy"? I don't know the answer. I have to say that I have slowly approached a "more ap" way of doing things from 1st through 2nd kid.

Blah, blah:blah

[Stacymom]

Welcome to al the new faces- sorry I haven't had a chance to send a greeting until now.

Mothernurture, what you described is a very familiar feeling to me. Even though I am probably on the more "mainstream" side of "crunchy", (Man, I hate labels, but it's sometimes the only way to describe what I mean) I definitely have some viewpoints that have made me the odd one out in my ward sometimes. I remember sitting at a playgroup last year when all the moms there started launching into a discussion about cio, and I just didn't know what to say. Some knew that dd had been having sleep problems, and they were all trying to be helpful, but I felt so incredibly awkward, and I dind't know what to say or how to stand up for what I really thought. There have been a lot of times that I have felt really isolated, and I'm not saying that I have the solution, I guess I just wanted to commisserate.

I'm actually struggling a lot with my visiting teaching assignments for this very reason- I have a partner that could not be more ooposite of me if she tried, and they just assigned us to a brand new sister in the ward with a little tiny baby that never gets out of his carrier during church, and the only thing I have ever seen him fed is apple juice. It's hard for me to not make snap judgements about people and their parenting styles, and I find it hard sometimes to reach outside myself when I see such obvious differences in what we believe in and how we raise our children. That's probably the exact reason that Heavenly Father has me assigned to and with these sisters, huh!

I have just two weeks left until my due date, and I am so ready to be finished being pregnant! I have to come here to MDC to get reassured that going for a natural birthing experience is really what I want- today has been one of those days where I've felt that if someone offered to induce me today, I would! We've actually been having a few problems with this baby, and I've been going into the hospital twice a week for non-stress tests to make sure everything is okay, and it's made me pretty anxious about the health and safety of this little one. Everythng is looking good for now- we're just hoping that it stays that way, and that she is born healthy.

[Laurel]

I don't feel close to very many women in my ward either, but it has nothing to do with AP. There are very few people who even know me well enough to know how I parent. I think in my case, it's mostly age factors: I'm about 10 years older than most new moms, and the women who are closer to my age have 3-4 children and are busily engaged in their own lives. My realm of experiences the past few years has been vastly different from theirs, and I sense that they don't really know how to relate to me. Also, I had the realization a few weeks ago that I think some of them are intimidated by me. I have lots of education, some talents that are very visible in the church setting, and am pretty intellectual. But I am so aware of my insecurities that it's hard to imagine that everyone else can't see those too! I wonder if when it comes to parenting and the things we are striving for here, if we unknowingly intimidate people too. Maybe that causes people to shy away from us.

When I do get to know someone well enough for my parenting to be exposed, I have actually found that most people are very accepting. I am constantly amazed how many closet co-sleepers there are, especially among my adoptive parent friends. I feel kind of like Bekka, in that I get a lot of people telling me that what I do is great but they couldn't do it. I don't know if they really mean it or if they are just saying that because they don't want me to know they disapprove. I did have one woman in my ward respond rather disdainfully when I mentioned that I was going to cloth diaper, and that kind of surprised and hurt me.

I think it's hard to walk the tightrope of standing up for what we believe but trying to be sensitive to others. I have a friend who bugged me literally for *months* before Dallin came telling me how much I would need an Exersaucer. She even went so far as to say that she would get me one for my baby shower. I didn't want to tell her how I felt about them, because I didn't want her to think that I thought she was a bad mom for using one. (And I don't think Exersaucers are bad--I just didn't want one.) But she literally would not leave me alone about it, so I finally had to tell her how I felt. Luckily, she wasn't offended. I think it is hard when you need advice and validation, but can't get it within the context of the way you are choosing to parent. That is very isolating.

[mothernurture]

thanks for your post stacymom. I understand completely about feeling isolated for your AP ideas. It has been (and still is) hard to let go of the need to fit in and develop friendships with women I come in contact with when our ideas about parenting are so different.

I too have had the experience of VTing with a partner (who hasn't had children) and VTees who are along the mainstream in thoughts about birth and parenting. I definitely didn't feel like I had much to contribute to conversations about "I just want as much drugs as possible during childbirth so I don't have to feel anything." (as this happened within a few months of my daughter's waterbirth at the birth center).

Stacymom- good luck with your upcoming birth! I have been a post partum doula (before returning to more steady paid employment with the federal govt) and I want to wish you a beautiful birthing day. I hope you have the support you deserve (not only during the birth but post partum as well) as you welcome another little one into your family and into the world.
After a traumatic first birth, I would do anything to have a better experience the 2nd time. Waiting for baby to come on his/her own can be so challenging (when you don't feel well or don't have as much support as you need, especially if you're already caring for your first born). If women had the support they need/deserve in the last weeks of pregnancy, we'd see a lot less elective induction. You deserve to rest, be fed, and nurtured! Good luck.
Kristin

[mothernurture]

here here Laurel...
"My realm of experiences the past few years has been vastly different from theirs, and I sense that they don't really know how to relate to me. "

I can totally relate... I'm "only" on my 2nd child (I'm 32) and most women in my wards already have at least 3-4 kids by now! I too, feel that my experience has been so different that it's hard for me to relate to other women and them to me. I went to graduate school and worked in some high profile settings in the govt (doing counterterrorism work) before I became a mother for the first time at the age of 29.

I agree, that given the experiences I have had since graduating from high school, I've definitely (sorry to be so clique) "taken the path less traveled by" and as a result, women can't relate to me (or me to them). When I was on an analytical shift work rotation at the Pentagon (during my 1st pregnancy), I had to wear a pager whenever I wasn't in the office. So, I had to bring it to church with me. It was perhaps the strangest thing the RS sisters had ever seen (no, I wasn't an alien), a woman (pregnant no less) wearing a pager -- the ultimate sign of having a professional existence... and I felt soooooo out of place.

It wasn't until ldsmama (Lisa) introduced herself and said to me, "what was your name? I remember it was 2 last names." (my name is Kristin Norton Welter), that I started to get a glimmer of hope that at least one person might still want to get to know me, despite me being one of "those" women who keeps her maiden name (in some form) after marriage...

I have spent much time/energy trying to find common ground with women in the church but I often feel it's a hopeless cause. Some periods of time in my life I have the energy for it and other times I don't. It's a dilemma, perhaps without a solution...

[Laurel]

Mothernurture- I think in my case women have felt uncomfortable because of my infertility. I think it makes them feel bad for me and self-conscious of what they can do that I can't. I know that I myself often feel uncomfortable around people who are going through great adversity. They don't realize that I've come to acceptance of things and I'm not going to burst into tears if they talk about pregnancy.

It really was humbling to realize that I might be intimidating. I had no idea! I thought that maybe I was looked down on. I never wanted or intended to be intimidating. There is a girl in my ward who teaches RS. I love her lessons. They are full of candor and honesty, she is a great teacher and shares personal experiences that make her lessons so human. But at the beginning of every lesson, she would ask who had read the lesson and who understood it. (This was John Taylor.) I would always answer honestly that yes, I read it, and yes, I understood it. Then she would make a comment to the effect that maybe I should teach it. She would go on about how hard the material was to understand and how she had to read it over and over and ask her husband to help her. It took me about three lessons to realize that when she asked who understood the lesson, she meant it rhetorically. She didn't really want to know that I understood it. After that, I learned to keep my mouth shut! I realized that she felt intimidated by my knowledge and insecure. But I had no such thoughts--I was extremely impressed by her lessons. And then a few weeks ago, after playing the organ (I have a master's in Organ Performance) and then substituting in gospel doctrine, another woman told me, "Boy, you sure do it all, don't you?" Again, it hit me--people are intimidated. I don't feel all that wonderful!

I feel that for me personally, it's important to cross the boundaries of difference. As passionate as I feel about certain things in parenting and in other parts of my life, I think unity and love are more important, and my ideals don't have to be compromised to get that. Of course, I run into situations all the time where this resolve it tested. I really struggle with it with my sil whose parenting drives me crazy! But I think that we can create problems for ourselves when we are too picky about who we will be friends with and what we will have in common with them. I hope I don't sound preachy or anything; I've just been on the other side of this. I've longed for someone to be willing to see value in me when I was so different. I spent so many years childless wishing that others would learn to talk about something besides parenting so that they could have a conversation with me that would go past "hi". And thrilled when a few people would bring me into their lives even though I was different. I've worked hard myself to be able to show genuine interest in other people's lives too. I figured that if I wanted people to do it for me, I had to do it in return.

I'm not sure where I'm going with all this. I guess I'm just trying to say that we can be friends with people who are different from us, but it does take more effort and stretching on both parts. I do understand the need for someone who we can go to and talk to who just "gets it". But friendship can come about in the most unique ways and places if we are open to it. My neighbor has led a much different life that I have. She got married young and has four children. She parents differently, but is still a good parent. Our friendship has developed very slowly, but I've discovered that she has much to offer. We don't talk about parenting all that much.

[leavesarebrown]

I'm SO GLAD to have been pointed to this thread!!!!! I only have a second cause I have two kids to feed, a water pipe that just burst in the basement so a mess to clean up (I turned the water main off so we're okay for a second. The stuff is sopping already so it's not like I'm gonna save it, and there are a couple electric plugs running through the water, so I don't think it's such a hot idea to go down there and mess around til I get some rubber boots and gloves on or turn off the power anyway!), some shopping for scout camp to do (we did most of it last night) then a husband to drive to scout camp an hour away (we're a one car family)... Primary activity tomorrow morning, Birth center picnic tomorrow afternoon, bridal shower tomorrow night (got the gift before LLL this am), Gospel Doctrine lesson to teach SUnday morning... And I know all this isn't all that unusual for an LDS AP mom! ANYWAY... now I've forgotten what I was gonna say besides ya'll keep writing 'cause I like you already!!!
-Lisa B. mom of Reuben 3 1/2 and Talia 4 1/2 months & VERY high needs

[leavesarebrown]

I can DEFINITELY relate to this one since it took us 5 years, 2 miscarrages then 3 infertile years for ds Reuben then another miscarriage before Talia. And then also the whole parenting style thing. I agree about finding value in friends who are different, but there are the realities like people who STOP inviting you to stuff 'cause they are embarassed to think you might breastfeed openly at their house, or talk about birth, or whatever. Or just look down their noses in such an obvious way that why WOULD you want to hang out w/ them let alone carry on a conversation about things you hold dear?! Sure, you can have friendships w/ non-ap parents, but parenting is such a personal thing that it's hard to have a very deep or meaningful friendship w/ women who are complaining about their baby who is so clingy that they can't go to Hawaii for their second honeymoon yet!

[KatherineinCA]

Stacymom:

I'm sorry these last weeks of your pregnancy have been worrisome. I'm sure hoping that everything goes well and that your little one will be born healthy and strong. I remember those non-stress tests (from my twin pregnancy), and it's so hard to have extra appointments & stress at the end of a pregnancy! (That's the irony, right? The non-stress tests make us more stressed!) Keep us posted, and hang in there!

Love,
Katherine

[Beth]

I have always chosen not to say anything because I didn't want to be offensive to anyone on this board. But something in me today wants to let you all know how I feel. For some reason today I feel hurt/bad/disappointed by what is being said in this thread. I cannot relate to anything that has been said. Dh and I are attentive involved caring parents. We are a co-sleeping (to an extent), EBFing, non-vaxing, homebirthing family. We live in UT where there is not much of that same parenting view in our extended family, ward, neighborhood or wherever. However, we have strived for unity with those we come in contact with because we are a working for the same goal...salvation, exaltation, even just plain happiness.

Our ward is a mixture of families. We have the established group, whose children are raised and out of the home, the growing family who have stopped having children but the children are still in the home, widows, widowers, young families with 1 or 2 children and the just marrieds. There seems to be a closeness in our ward that is indescribable. People are constantly moving in and out b/c part of the ward is in condos or 4-plexes. I have stated in RS many times that those who are new need to reach out to those that may be sitting next to them b/c that sister that is next to them may also be new and just sitting and waiting for someone to befriend you is a waste of time.

My best friend is high school was the most popular girl in the school. Everyone knew her from the shyest freshman to the most out-going senior. She was friends/aquaitances with them all. She was a straight A student, involved in clubs and sports and she was a member of the local horse-riding club. I remember the fall after we graduated we were walking into the grocery store when she stopped to talk to a girl that was 2 years younger than us (so she was still in high school). I only barely recognized this girl's face. But my friend walked up to her and said,"Hi, so and so (calling her by name)." Then my friend asked how soccor was going. They had a short conversation and we continued on into the store. That was over 8 years ago, but I will never forget the admiration I felt for my friend then. With all that she had going on in her life she definitely didn't have to take time for others. But she remembered that girl and what she was involved in. My friend didn't even play soccor. They didnt' have anything in common except that they went to the same school a year ago.

Well, this is way too long and I don't know if I am even getting my point across. What I am trying to say nicely, if it can be done, is that even I, who share many of the same values as the rest of you, feel judged by you. To think that one cannot befriend another because of differences in lifestyles is sad, depressing, and weak. We must all reach out. Not with the idea that we will help someone to see our point of view but that we can be unified as children of God.

I will end there. Although there is so much more I'd like to say.

[Laurel]

Originally posted by ldsmama
but there are the realities like people who STOP inviting you to stuff 'cause they are embarassed to think you might breastfeed openly at their house, or talk about birth, or whatever. Or just look down their noses in such an obvious way that why WOULD you want to hang out w/ them let alone carry on a conversation about things you hold dear?!

Yikes! Oh, wow, I have not experienced anything even remotely like this! I am so sorry. :hug I would be really disillusioned too.

I am so glad you both found us, then.

[Laurel]

Beth, I am sorry you are feeling judged, and if it was because of anything I wrote, I apologize. I think my thoughts actually reflect yours quite closely, and that's what I was trying to get across, though sharing my own personal experiences and weaknesses may have detracted from that point.

Being very different is hard, whether it's because of a life situation, personality, choices, etc. It's very easy to allow the loneliness that can result to canker us. I have been guilty of it, as I am sure all of us have at one time or another. We all want to be loved, valued, and understood. I think that being different can teach us many valuable things. Most of the really meaningful things I've learned and gained in my life have come from being different than others. It has made me more accepting, though I still have a long way to go. But being different definitely hurts along the way, and we go through tough periods trying to come to terms with that.

[Bekka]

I have to say that in discussing things with friends/family in different parts of the US/world, wards and branches are different. Some draw together easily and some take months/years to "get the prickles out." Sometimes it depends on where you live, who you are, etc.

Two points and then I'll hush ... I visited friends two different weekends one summer in the SLC area about nine years ago. I went to church with the one and attended her ward in region X, and everyone was very nice and friendly, etc. About a month later I returned to SLC to take the MCAT and stayed with a friend, and went to church in _their_ ward. Whatever the lesson was, there was some comment in GD or RS about people who live in X region of SL, and how they are so judgmental/rich/valuing you with your income/etc. I was completely flabbergasted, because I had recently attended a ward there, and I had felt completely welcome, loved, etc.

That huge post where I rambled about how great my ward is and how many people I find with at least something in common? When I first moved here, I wrote a huge letter to my friend saying I'll never fit in here, everyone has kids, blah, blah, blah! I was the Gospel Doctrine teacher with a pager ... And yet now, I feel like this is the best ward on earth and I don't know HOW we're going to ever cope with leaving! And I felt that way before we had kids ...

Have you ever tried to get acquainted with someone and specifically talk about something besides children/parenting/sleep habits/pregnancy and find that there is nothing? I know one person who LOVES to clean and LOVES to cook and that IS HER LIFE. She married very young, hated college, and--it seemed like--she isn't interested in any external things (nature, crafts, sewing, scrapbooking, hiking, academics, reading, whatever!!!). But I told her I'd love to learn about her reasons that she loves to clean, because SOME OF US hate it ... :D

[leavesarebrown]

I wish you WOULD say more... In what way are you feeling judged? (Was it something I said? Did you and your dh have a second honeymoon in Hawaii or something?)

[Beth]

After thinking about what I wrote and reading your comments I tried to come up with a clearer way to say what I am thinking. This is what I came up with. It seems that you(in general) are creating your own isolation within your ward, group of friends and/or family.

One of my very best friends and I do not agree on the vax issue. That has not distanced our friendship at all. We were very close b4 the issue came up in conversation and we discussed our different opinions and we are still very close. We are both very set in our opinions. She is a friend that I met in my ward.

I have found myself in many situations in my ward where I hold a very different view but I have never felt isolated or left out. I strive to include myself by participating where it would be easier to stay on the outside.

One challenge that I have been experiencing lately in my ward is that I am growing older and the couples moving in are younger and younger. I feel that I have less and less in common with the new "girls" (some are just 20 yo if that) in the ward. Last month we had a ward talent show and I asked a group of sisters to be in a skit with me. We got a great mixture of sisters, some just married, one married for years with a new baby, one married for years with 2 children, a couple of YW, etc. You get the picture. It was sooooooo much fun. I don't have alot in common with the young girls but we all enjoy having fun and building friendships.

I have learned that we create our own reality. I guess I just feel like some here are playing the victim role. I guess that in and of itself is judgemental. Sorry.:eek

I guess what I want to do is encourage everyone here to break down the walls that are isolating you and celebrate the diversity (I never thought I'd find myself using that phrase) of your ward, area, family, friends. I'm being judgemental still, aren't I? I'll just stop. Shouldn't have brought this all up in the first place. There really is a great group of sisters here. Sorry if I've caused a rift.

A second honeymoon in Hawaii or anywhere for that matter would be nice wouldn't it.:thumb

[Stacymom]

I have really appreciated everyone's thoughts on community and "fitting in." (For lack of a better term...) This is something that I have always struggled with- from grade school on. By nature, I am not a very outgoing, initiate-the-conversation-or -activity kind of person. I'm not necessarily shy, but it's hard for me to be the one to make the first move, if you know what I mean. My ward has been a difficult one for me, because I am literally, the youngest married woman in my ward, and there are only a few of us in our twenties. It seems like everyone has known everyone else forever, and that even when I did try and join in a conversation or go to an activity, I felt completely invisible. I'm not trying to complain or be argumentative, but I have found it hard to make more than casual friendships with women and moms around me.

ANother thing that has made it hard for me is that my dh works afternoons and evenings, so we spend the mornings together, then I teach violin lessons in the afternoon at my house, so we have to follow a routine- and it has really helped us. But, it means that I don't have the flexibility to drop everything to go to the park or whatever when some of the neighborhood moms do. And it's in the evenings, after dinner and all the other obligations are over, that I start to go stir-crazy and want to be social, and that's when all the other women are spending time with their husbands and families, and it's definitely not my place to intrude on that. Luckily, this schedule won't last forever. Another year or so, but that's it!

Sometimes, at playgroups, enrichment nights, or things like this, it seems like the conversations all revolve around "small talk"- shopping, child-rearing, husbands and families etc. Has anyone else noticed this? How do you get beyond it? I guess my struggles come in when people focus a conversation on cio, spanking, or how rotten their kids or husbands are, when I feel completely opposite. I remember once trying to say something against cio, and about seven other women who were there looked at me like I had grown a second head. Am I the only one that has experienced this? I guess for me, it's hard to move beyond those initial differences and form a more meaningful friendship- sometimes it seems like the gap is too wide. Do you know what I mean?

I'm really not trying to be argumentative- I really appreciate this discussion and it has given me a lot to think about. Just would like to see what everyone else thinks.

[Stacymom]

Oh, and thanks for the well wishes everyone! These last few weeks of pregnancy seem so long to me- especially after a day like yesterday where I just felt yucky and tired. But everything with the baby looks good, (I passed my NST, and the levels of amniotic fluid are up) and I've come up with a list of projects and things to keep me busy until this baby is born. :D Now if we could just decide on a name... :p

[Beth]

Stacymom, as I read your post a light came on in my head. I understand what you are saying.

At our Enrichment nights there is some of that small talk. I usually stay a bit later and chat with some of the sisters. It is usually a different group each time I go. Recently, I started talking to one of my friends about her autistic boy who is in my Wolf Scouts Den. I have wanted to ask her her feelings on the causes of autisim for a long time, since I had a conversation with her mother 3 years ago. Her mother just said in short that some people think that immunizations are the cause. I was really intrigued. Anyway, I asked her if she feels that vaxes were the cause. I asked if she had vaxed her new baby. She feels that her boy is a perfect spirit that has come to her family to help her and her husband learn and grow. She felt there was something about her boy before he was born. She did vax her new baby. We talked about my choice to not vax. She was shocked and concerned by my decision (as most people are) but it hasn't changed our relationship. (BTW, this is a different friend from the one I wrote about before). I feel that when the sisters in my ward and I are able to talk about issues that are important to us we grow closer. It seems like I am blessed with a very accepting non-judgemental ward. I can totally understand that all wards aren't like that.

[Laurel]

Originally posted by Beth
It seems that you(in general) are creating your own isolation within your ward, group of friends and/or family.

I think this is true... partly. If everyone else was perfect and only we were imperfect, then it would be completely true. But since everyone around us is as imperfect as we are, I think there are definitely times when isolation is more than just our own creation. I think some of the things we may sense from others are more than just our imaginations working overtime--and yet, I totally agree that we are ultimately responsible for our own happiness. I guess that's why we need to have an attitude of tolerance and forgiveness.

I loved what Bekka said, and totally agree that if we put enough effort into it, we can find something in common with just about anyone. But how many of us actually make the effort to do that? I think that most of us, me included, tend to focus our energy on the people that we easily have things in common with, and then don't have much time left over for the people with whom common ground would be harder to find. So if you're someone who really is different from others in many big ways, you will have to work harder to find common ground and fit in. It can definitely be done, but it won't come as naturally as it will for others.

I have been thinking a lot the last few days during this discussion about an analogy I heard about a few years ago. It can seem overwhelming to form meaningful friendships, especially if you are feeling like you don't even have many acquaintances. Think of entering a house. You walk up to the yard and enter the gate. Then you make it as far as the porch. From the porch, you enter the living room, then the kitchen, and finally the bedroom. Now, divide all the people you interact with into the places within the house where they would fit. The gate would include anyone that you come into casual contact with--the checker at the grocery store, the UPS delivery person, etc. The porch would include perhaps people that you see at church every week, but don't really know beyond saying "hi" in the hall. Now, you invite people into your living room. These would be people like your visiting teachers, to whom you would open up a bit more, but still wouldn't necessarily be "close" to. Good friends would be invited into the "kitchen" of your house to chat more freely and openly. Finally, the bedroom would be reserved for spouses and very close friends in whom you confide deeply.

I had a diagram of this "house" drawn out for me, and labeled all the people I knew at the time according to the rooms they fit in. It helped me to assess where I needed to focus my energy when it came to developing and maintaining friendships. How many people who were in my "living room" could I bring into the "kitchen" with a little bit of effort? And so on. Maybe at those times when we're feeling alone and misunderstood, it's because we have lots of acquaintances and casual friends who we could move along the path? Maybe there is no one that you would feel comfortable bringing into your kitchen, and so you have to go back to the porch, or even the gate, and figure out how to meet lots of new people in general?

The best thing I have ever done to interact with other women in a more meaningful way is to start a book group. A book group can bridge many barriers, and give a diverse group of people a common starting place. Ours had married sisters, single sisters, sisters with children, sisters pregnant, and sisters childless. To me, that group was a kind of Mormon utopia that I'd love to create again.

Once again, Beth, I appreciated your post and I admit I think my thoughts had gotten out of hand. A lot of what I mentioned were things that I'd experienced in the past and not necessarily what I think or experience now, but that wasn't very clear.

[leavesarebrown]

Thanks for taking a second tack, Beth. I don't think anyone's trying to be judgmental by expressing their own feelings about not fitting in. I think the desire to feel accepted is normal for EVERYONE regardless of parenting style, but that it can be more difficult for individuals swimming upstream in any way--like parenting in ways contrary to popular or majority culture. American culture is rather conformist, and Mormon culture even moreso. There are advantages to this, in providing a sense of normalcy and even rightness and values and unity in some ways, but as Elder Maxwell points out, individuality and personality are ETERNAL and good traits. And when we equate sameness with rightness across the board, we run into problems (like assuming that there is something WRONG with us when we don't fit in). We already face challenges as women, being a "peculiar" (treasured/ covenant) people, and as mothers, but when we add to that picture parenting choices different than those extolled in popular media and magazines--which expect independence from early ages--we add yet another difference to the mix. So I think what I'm looking for from this forum is not solutions (although I know Kristin asked for some ideas), but rather a little bit of empathy, and also validation that I am a caring, loving, and perhaps most importantly, a COMPETENT mother. Yeah, it'll be great when I hit the day that I just have enough confidence in myself to laugh off any criticisms, sneers, etc. Actually, I have been able to do this in a few situations, and it feels GREAT! But most of the time, I'm a normal human bean who feels hurt and frustrated when I'm distained by others.

So maybe I do have a "solution" oriented question. How do you mamas respond when someone reacts negatively to your parenting practices?

[KindRedSpirit]

I don't think I really have an issue with any of this.Call me dumb...I just never cared how I fit in.The picture is SO big,I just figured I did ...somewhere.:)
As far as my reactions to negativity;I am really good at the art of creating my own reality,and bypassing the negativity of others,(it only hurts them.)I'm not a fan of putting myself in the path of hurt,and I find life to be a happier place for it.Sure,on occasion I like to put my toe in the water to remind myself how cold it is and why I prefer to stay out...(maybe I SHOULD jump in and splash with every one else.It could be fun.)I know,I need therapy:wild

[marlygf]

Hi everyone! I haven't been here forever. i guess I wasn't getting any e-mails telling me there were new posts because you started a new thread :P if you don't remember me I was freaking out because I was mad at my little man and freaking out. Dh gave me a blessing and things are so much better :) Anyway, I have great news. I am actually trying to get pregnant again and have been charting this month. Let me tell you I am so totally confused, but I think I might have timed it right and am pregnant. I am only 3 dpo but at least I am ovulating (I am still bfing my 11 month old)

[KatherineinCA]

Marlygf, that's great that you're feeling better.

Drewsmom, we do bring activities for our 8 year-olds. Actually, I still bring a snack for them, too, but that's because sacrament meeting starts at 11:00. I think my husband would prefer that they sit and listen, but that would be cruel and unusual punishment for our 8 year-old son. He really needs his hands to be occupied. He usually draws during the meeting. I also have a flannel scripture story book with characters that can be arranged on the pages, and they both still enjoy that. Some of the things I bring are mainly for our 3 year-old, but the older two still enjoy them as well.

I've been interested in the discussion about "fitting in." It sounds like everyone's trying to find common ground and build relationships with other women, which is great. And it's really gotten me thinking about how I "fit in" now.

For me, losing Kevin has put me so outside the realm of other people's experience that I don't even have a hope of fitting in right now! Trust me, whether my views are more mainstream or more AP is irrelevant, *nobody* wants me joining in to talk about pregnancy or birth or postpartum right now, because I just remind other moms about their worst nightmares. I seriously have had pregnant women turn their back on me as soon as they hear that I lost a baby during labor. I understand, though. I think it's instinctive, the need to protect ourselves, especially while pregnant. Here's an example of how futile it is for me to try to participate in discussions on pregnancy right now: my poor sister-in-law was telling me how she's too nauseous to take her prenatals, and I was trying to reassure her by saying, "Oh, don't worry about it, I was too nauseous to take my prenatals with Kevin." That was followed by a long silence, as I realized that she wasn't feeling reassured at all! I was able to laugh and say, "Oh, I guess that's not the most reassuring example to give you!" Tried to tell another friend that it's okay to take Phenargan during pregnancy, because I had to take it when I was pregnant with Kevin. Again, didn't communicate the reassurance I had intended! (I should clarify that he didn't die from a cord accident. He was sick and not well-nourished, which is why my comments were, understandably, upsetting to these moms.)

I find that my opinions on AP-type things have also lost credibility with people because the perception (among the pro-hospital crowd--which includes my husband) is that my baby died *because* I planned a homebirth. (The night after Kevin died, we were still in the hospital, and my husband asked, "So, does this mean we can vaccinate Kyle now?") He later apologized and said he shouldn't have brought it up right then, but even with him, my views lost a lot of credibility. And, among homebirthers, it's that I planned a homebirth, but didn't have the conviction to go through with it, because my baby died. (Yes, one of my midwives was actually upset with me for deciding to go to the hospital. She kept saying, "You can still have a healing birth!" Actually, I did have a healing birth, but it turned out to be a c-section.) It's also happened with homeschooling, because I started my kids in a Montessori school two months ago, after being so committed to homeschooling for the last 2 1/2 years.

So, I don't really fit in either "group" right now, which is probably good for me. I've often had the tendency toward black-and-white thinking, but that has been softening for me during the last seven months. I'm finding that I'm more balanced in many areas. Two years ago I suffered through excruciating pain after none of the remedies my naturopath recommended worked. Even she said, "You know, there's a time for Advil, too." Now, I do take Advil occasionally, and follow it with a homeopathic detox that removes the leftover chemicals from my body. To me, that's the perfect blend of both approaches to health care.

Not sure what the actual point to all this is, but these are the thoughts that came pouring out after considering the topic of fitting in and finding common ground. I guess I'm being forced to find other ways to relate to people, because the things I've usually talked to other women about are "off-limits" right now. I find that I do a lot more of asking people all about themselves, and keeping the discussion off of me. I usually don't even answer the question, "How are you?" because very few people need to hear how I'm really doing. I usually reply, "Hey, how are you doing?" It's been working beautifully. I avoid giving a superficial "Great!" or "Fine!", which would feel like a betrayal of myself, but the other person still feels acknowledged and like their effort to say "hi" has been reciprocated.

I better stop now! Guess I am pretty desperate to join in a conversation, I can't stop typing! :D

Love,
Katherine

PS--Anyone heard from CorasMama?

[leavesarebrown]

Wow, Katherine, I joined this thread recently enough that I hadn't heard about Kevin so I'm glad you shared. Talia was born at home and hospitalized day 2 after turning blue and going limp at the ped when the PKU was drawn. We were there for a week and sent home w/ oxygen and a monitor. I've TOTALLY gotten attitude from people about the home birth, which her apnea and other issues have had absolutely NOTHING to do with and people just don't get it. One lady said "What if anything happened?" and I just looked at her thought "Something DID happen, you idiot!!!"

When there is an infant death in the hospital, people assume it's IN SPITE OF all that can be done for the well-being of the mother and baby, but if it's a planned homebirth, it's assumed to be BECAUSE OF the place of birth and care providers. No one cares to find out the actual statistics about the safety of home birth or wants to hear how many hospital deaths are iratogenic. At any rate, I was really grateful for our home labor, and I'm also really grateful (as you have expressed) for the medical care (well, not all of it, but at least that she was given medication early on for her breath-stopping reflux).

Bottom line, if we had another baby and once again barring unforeseen complications, I would want to give birth at home again.

How you must miss having Kevin in your home! We have lost three to miscarriage, which losses we feel (on occasion) to this day. How much deeper the loss for a child brought to term. It can be particularly hard in our pro-family and frequently pregnant culture. For a time I could not go to baby showers. And we have LOTS in our young family ward--for over a dozen babies each year. The up side in this baby-booming ward is that lots of women have had, shared, and supported eachother through childbearing losses.

[ldsapmom]

I have been away for a while -- nice to see so many new moms! Welcome!

In my ward I do not feel a kindred connection in particular with any one mom -- but I love many of the sisters just because. I have a pretty good friend in my ward. I realized one day I do love her and appreciate her simply because she is. I noticed one day she had formula for her baby at Enrichment Night. I knew she breastfed too, but at outside functions she chooses to bring bottles of formula. As a very pro breastfeeder and a LLL Leader I could have been apalled and dismayed to see this (and to tell you the truth, that is how I normally react when seeing these things). But because I love her and she is my friend, I just accepted it. Some women find this helps them alleviate added stresses or pressures from nursing in public and ultimatly helps them be better moms. Do I want someone to be the best mom she can be? Or do I want someone to be the mom I think she should be?

I accept that each mom knows her baby best. And I believe that extends to families and husbands too.

I can understand that there is a fine line between not feeling accepted or understood at church versus making yourself stick out and become a "victem." Like someone else said (Lisa?) we can all find something in common even if we must bring it down to the lowest common denominator.

When I start to notice I am feeling bad or judgemental about the way a family does things, I examine my own inner feelings and remember I expect others to trust me when it comes to my family -- I need to trust them too.

[Laurel]

Originally posted by ldsapmom
But because I love her and she is my friend, I just accepted it.

Stacie, I think this is where it's at. I thought of an example from my own life. I'm a professional organist, and I've been trained to nitpick every little tiny detail about playing the organ. I have a very critical ear ("critical" in the good sense of the word--discerning). At times it has been very easy for me to be critical (in the bad sense) of other organists, especially in my wards, since only about 1 in 100 it seems actually know how to play the organ. But my perspective changed when I began teaching. A few of my students told me of really painful experienced being judged and criticized by musicians who were much better than they. My heart broke for those students, who I knew were trying their very best. Now, when I hear someone play who is struggling, or who is doing it "wrong", I try to imagine that person as my student, and it totally changes my perspective to one of love and compassion, rather than criticism. *Really* getting to know another person, to the point of caring for them makes all the difference in the world. We are to have charity, and to see people as the Savior would see them. The Savior can see people and love them as He does because he *knows* them as well as He does. We are also told in the Book of Mormon, about mocking others for their weakness, that "fools mock, but they shall mourn" To take advantage of another because of her weakness flies in the face of everything we should stand for.

I've sure got a long way to go! It is so easy to get off track from this and the things that are most important, isn't it?

[Stacymom]

Oh, Katherine! :hug :grouphug

My heart just goes out to you- I can't imagine how difficult your situation must be. As if the grief over losing your little boy wasn't bad enough- there are so many far-reaching implications and it seems so unfair that you should have to deal with them! I seriously wish that I could just put my arms around you and help you feel better.

I have loved this discussion so much, and it has given me so much to think about. I have loved hearing all the viewpoints- I really looked at things differently when I was in church today.

Thanks everyone, for sharing pieces of your lives and your hearts with me. :heartbeat

[klg47]

Wow, I lost this thread for a while too somehow!

Marly -- about getting pregnant. Don't get too excited too soon! I got my period back when Conner was 10 months old. He is now 19 months old, and my luteal phase is STILL not enough to sustain a pregnancy :-( This naturally happens when you breastfeed a lot. Supposedly the luteal phase lengthens out as the breastfeeding decreases. Maybe my case is different though. Maybe Heavenly Father knows that it's not quite time for us to have a baby yet.


Katie

[marlygf]

Katherin: Thanks, It really does feel good not to get mad at my ltitle boy. I would swear on priesthood blessings. They seem so simple and yet do so much. I do remember reading a little about your loss, but I wasn't really involved in the thread so I didn't say much but I am truly sorry that happened to you and your family. If you don't mind my asking, what happened?
I am very happy that you are able to help others becuase sometimes I feel like we go through things to help someone else through the same thing.

Katie: I know, I'm getting way too excited. See my problem is I had Jayden in the summer and I don't want to do that again! He will be 1 next month and I really want to get pregnant in Speptember to have a June baby. Who knows though, Heavenly father may think I need to humble myself more and give me a summer baby!
Anyway, This is the first time I have charted because I just tried before and it took us 7 months. I'm hoping because I will know my body better that will help (last month I barely got my period back and had a normal 30 day cycle for me, ovulating on day 16, but this month I didn't ovulate until day 21, so I'm hoping my dpo is it's normal 14 days also) I love breastfeeding my baby, but it sure does mess up your body!! :) Even though at first it's great because I didn't want to get pregnant :)

I also wanted to comment on the ward situation. For me I love having things in common with people. I guess it helps to have things to talk about. But the funniest things is my closest friend in my ward stopped bfing at 1 year, had her baby cio, wants only hospital births with epidurals, and everything else that's basically opposite from me. I think the reason we get along is we agree to disagree. I say my opinion, she says hers. But some people aren't like that and that's when I alienate myself (my entire relief society thought I was insane to have a natural birth with a 9 lb baby! Also that I want a home birth (didn't first time, but probably will 3rd, since my 2nd will be born in the birthing center) anyway, I'm rambling. I just wanted to give my 2 cents :)

[Bekka]

On this topic of "fitting in" and homogeneity of LDS culture, I was going through some old Ensigns for pictures (trying to make SM books for my kids) and found a wonderful article about a Utah family that moved to Mauritius (in the Indian ocean?) for a period of time and enjoyed being in the tiny branch there. But the woman who wrote the article described a woman who had been Hindu previously and had recently been baptized, and in trying to "fit into" the Mormon culture thing, given up her nose ring, long braid and beautiful sari for church, and switched to a blouse and skirt.

When Richard G. Scott talked about the "traditions of the fathers" that _were_ necessary to give up (another article in this particular Ensign, which BTW was on diversity, if you couldn't tell, talked about saints in Jamaica having to give up voodoo magic), he also stressed that the differences in culture such as differences in dress, music, etc., were things to be embraced, not changed (His talk was at GC a couple of years ago).

Anyhow, I just was thinking this weekend about the differences in people that make up a ward and how much beauty that can bring to the ward. A single mom in SM got up and walked out after the sacrament with her daughter, and they didn't come back, after the first talk addressed the "things dads should do in the home" or something like that. I would really like to say something or write something to her, but I don't know what would be appropriate to say. Any ideas? "I can imagine that Father's Day must be a pretty hard time for you and ______, but ________ is a wonderful girl and you're doing great bringing her up in the gospel" or something like that?

OT: Can you tell I'm feeling better and less nauseated? I'm posting all the time with my typical long posts again ...:blah

[Beth]

What is the luteal phase?:confused:

[marlygf]

it's the days after ovulation. also called dpo (days post ovulation) Normal is 12-16 days and you need to have enough or the egg to implant :) hth

[Beth]

With all the comments posted here, I am quickly realizing that I do have a great, very non-judgemental ward.:) Maybe everyone should move here and then I'd have alot more people like me and everyone here will get less negative comments. :p

Not to rub it in or anything, but the comments I get about having homebirths are more like, "You are awesome. I wish I could be that strong," or, "Wow, that's amazing.":thumb It seems like there is a greater level of respect since I strive for a natural birth. Alot of the women I talk to tell me that they are going to start to come to me when they have questions about pregnancy and labor and stuff like that.

I am glad that a good discussion has come out of my rant last week. I know that I've learned alot.

Bekka- I would probably try to talk to that sister that walked out b/c maybe she wasn't leaving b/c she was offended, maybe she was going to see her dad or didn't feel well, or a number of other things. Then if she says that it was b/c she was offended then you can sympathize (or empathize, I never know which word to use in that situation) with her. If she is feeling upset she probably wants to talk to someone. One thing that I learned in reading the book, How to Win Friends and Influence People, by Dale Carnegie, is that people like to talk about themselves.:p

Enough from me for now.

Thanks for the definition. How do you know how long your luteal phase is? Do you count from the day of ovulation til your period starts?

[Laurel]

Katherine- Thanks for sharing your thoughts. I always look forward to what you have to say--you have a perspective that comes from a place of wisdom due to your experiences. I always need to be reminded of that perspective. I can relate a little bit to some of your feelings. I hope you are doing OK and think of you often.

Beth- I'd always heard that the luteal phase was basically 14 days, and that if your cycles was longer, it was because the pre-ovulatory phase varied in length. But lately I've been reading a few things saying that the luteal phase can vary too, though it seems to be a sign that something is not quite right. Yes, you count the day of ovulation until your period starts.

Bekka- I think what you've described writing to that sister sounds great. Mother's and Father's Day are the hardest days of the year for many people, whether it's because of infertility, losing a child, being a single parent, having a bad relationship w/ your parents, having wayward children or whatever. A good number of the childless women I know don't even go to church on Mother's Day; it's just too hard. I'm sure she would appreciate your expressions of empathy.

I've been wondering how you all deal with the difference between expectations and reality. I remember that youngnhappymamma posted something awhile back about a birth experience that was not what she hoped for and it made me wonder how we find the balance in life between aiming high for worthy goals while remaining flexible enough to handle disappointments and things that fall short of our original plans. Katherine's post reminded me of this subject too. I think it's an important topic in this AP/natural culture of focus on the "best" for our children. Do you think we can become overzealous and get tunnel vision? How do we avoid that without lowering our standards to the point that we don't risk for anything really great?

[Beth]

Laurel- the idea of difference between expectations and reality is real to me. Next month we are going to get an u/s to find out the sex of this baby. So far with two girls we have not had to make a final decision concerning circ'ing our boys. Dh and I disagree 100% on this issue. My expectation is that dh will realize that I just want what is best for our baby and not circ'ing is best in my eyes. But the reality of it is that he has made up his mind and I am in a adult relationship. I need to respect him and his views no matter how much they differ from my own.

Up to this point I have not been willing to even discuss this issue with dh b/c we have had heated arguments about it with the last 2 pregnancies for ultimately no reason (since both babies were girls). I know we are in for a few more of those discussions come next month if this baby is a boy.

Just my personal experience on the issue of expectations and reality. I don't know how to deal with it.

[Stacymom]

The topic of expectations vs realities has been a huge one on my mind these past few weeks. (Forgive me as i talk about myself incessantly...) I've been planning a natural birth ever since I found out I was pregnant. I think my ideal would have been a home birth, but dh said absolutely not. We tried for a birth center, but insurance wouldn't cover it, and I couldn't get in with a midwife who delivered there. Ultimately, I have switched care providers three times this pregnacy, until finally I found a Dr who I felt completely comfortable with. He is very laid-back, non-interventionist (I know that's probably not a real word,) and is behind me 100% for a natural, non-induced, non-medicalized birth. He's a family Dr, and thinks a lot of things that happen in obstetrics are outdated and done for no good reason at all. (He wouldn't even make me be monitored by a fetal monitor or anything like that if it weren't hospital policy. He's also completely supportive of me selectively vaxing, and his wife bf their twins!)

Anyway, I have spent this pregnancy devouring everything I can find about natural childbirht. I have become more and determined despite how crazy everyone thinks I am.

But, last week, I didn't feel the baby move for an entire day. I called my Dr and he sent me to the hospital for some testing. They found out that I have low amniotic fluid, and I've been in for non-stress tests and ultrasounds twice a week since then. I went in today, and my fluid levels were back down, and the nurse basically told me that when I come back on Thursday, I should be prepared to stay for an induction, because she doesn't htink that my fluid levels will go back up. When all this started last week, I was so disappointed at facing the prospect of an induction. I was induced with Abby, and it was everything that I didn't want in a birth. But, after a lot of thought, and soul-searching, I've realized that the health of my baby is not worth putting into jeopardy just so that I can have a non-medicalized birth. I am not willing to take the chance that htere might be something seriously wrong, or risk the health of my little one just so that I can be more natural. I know that attitude may get me flamed here, and I know that there are a lot of women who would distrust everything that the Dr's and nurses told them in favor of trusting that their body would do what it was supposed to, but I trust my Dr completely, and I know that he wouldn't recommend an induction unless there was really and truly a need for it. I have spent a lot of time this week reconciling myself to the possibility of an induction and everything that carries with it, mostly because I don't want to always be looking at this borth in a negative way. For me, the health of this baby really is the most important thing. (I know my whole attitide about medical interventions is probably drastically different from others' here, but I htink that this is the right things for our family.)

And Beth, I could have written what you did about the whole circ issue! Oh, my goodness, dh and I have gone the rounds about this! He's actually told me he hopes we have all girls so that we don't have to face this issue! :p

[JuicyPakwan]

Beth-
It is not really my business. But my husband and I had to deal with circ with our first baby. He was for and me against. Before I had my son I thought since my husband gave in on several other issues I would give in on this. After the baby was born though I had a complete change of heart. They would have to have gone over my dead body to cut my child. This caused some discomfort in our marriage on and off for quite a while. I wish I could have dealt with it completely before baby came. However my husband now agrees with me and it was very worth the fight if fighting is ever worth anything. I would suggest and it's just a thought that he go watch a circumsicion being done somehow. I know it is possible I know of people who where able to observe to help in decision making. It is a horrible thing to watch and left me with the impression of how very wrong and unnatural it is to remove a perfectly healthy organ. If this is not possible let him look at a freshly done one also a gruesom sight and he will also see the extreme discomfort of the new baby. I don't condemn people for doing it. It is often done with lack of information and because of custom. I believe however that with info the tide is turning to noncirc especially out here in the west thank goodness.
Good luck on the decision making.

We are also getting our u/s in two days not sure if we want to find out what we're having but very exciting anyway.

[JuicyPakwan]

I forgot to also mention my mother-in-law called my husband after I made that decision and begged him to take him in and get it done without my knowing. That was when I realized how much I could trust my husband as even though he didn't agree he would never be underhanded with me. Very comforting

[Beth]

Wow, I am glad to see that there are few that have been in my shoes on the circ issue. I have felt the same way about giving in, b/c dh has come to my point of view on everything else. But then I think about my poor baby and how can I let this happen to him just b/c daddy doesn't know. Dh's reason (and there is only one) is so baby will look like him. So sad!!!:crying

My older brother is circ'd and he chose to not circ his only son b/c brother thought being circ'd took away some of the potential sexual sensation. The thought that my boy would or could have painful erections b/c of something I did... I don't know...my reasons are endless why not to be so invasive. It is maddening. I know we have discussed this in depth on this thread so I will stop here but:splat

Stacymom-it is good that you trust your dr, but just for babies sake even if you are induced there are supplements you can take to increase your fluid levels. Look into them, you can probably find details here on these boards under the pregnancy thread or health. If nothing else it will help your baby....
I tried to find something about low fluid in my Prescriptions for Nutrional Healing but it wasn't in there. Sorry.
Anyway, be strong and confident you are doing the right thing.

[KatherineinCA]

Wow, this thread got really busy yesterday! We're about to have a scheduled power-outage, so I'll try to make this quick. So many things to respond to, here's what comes to mind immediately...

Beth, my ds1 and ds2 are circumcised. When I was pregnant with Kevin (ds3), I told my husband it was a waste of time to even discuss the issue because I would never, ever again allow someone to perpetrate that violence on one of my babies. And I was fully prepared to phsysically fight to protect him! I do not believe for one instance that this is a matter of personal opinion. In fact, it's the only issue, of the many dh and I have disagreed on, that I don't think there is any room for compromise on. I can PM you my personal experiences with my sons (maybe if you're having a boy and it becomes an issue!), if that would be helpful and supportive for you. Another very interesting aspect of all this is that everything we experience is stored inside us. When I did re-birthing work last summer, I was astounded at how clear my memory of my birth was. I asked the practitioner what they do for men that were circumcised, and she said, "Oh, we have a whole separate treatment that focuses on healing that one experience." My 8 year-old ds has accessed his memory of his circumcision, and it was heart-rending to hear what it was like for him. The upside is that everything we store can also be released, so at least I know I can help my boys heal emotionally. As for the "looking like him", someone once pointed out that little boys don't look like their dads anyway, and by the time they're big enought to look the same, they're not comparing, anyway! I liked that point a lot. And this was important enough for me that I was prepared for Kevin to look different than his brothers. Okay, that's enough for now.

Stacymom--Hang in there. After my experience with Kevin (which I think I need to post, I don't believe I've ever told that story here), you have my complete and total support. By the time they realized he had died, there was no fluid at all. "Bone dry" is the exact term I believe they used. If my idiot midwives (yeah, there's some anger there!) had been at all on top of things, perhaps we would have had a different end to the story. It sounds like you have an excellent doctor who isn't jumping to any conclusions, but is being very proactive. It may not simply be a matter of raising the fluid levels. There could be an underlying reason not as much fluid is being produced, and that your baby's having trouble. I hurt for you when you said you might get flamed for what you were saying. Believe me, after losing my baby under the circumstances I did, induction is a far better option! I'm really not trying to scare you by referring to my loss, just want you to feel supported and know that avoiding intervention isn't the most important goal here. It's the baby. Yeah, I know lots of doctors use that line to justify unwarranted inductions/c-sections. But, sometimes it's really true. And it sounds like you have a situation where it's true, as well as a doctor who's able to judge that. Please take care and keep us posted! Wishing all the best for you and your sweet baby.
Love,
Katherine

[JuicyPakwan]

I have to say I agree totally that circumsicion is not a personal opinion issue it is a sexual violation issue.
Stacymom-
I am a midwife but I have to agree go with you instincts. If you feel good about the advise your physician is giving you do it. I would also second the opinion to look into alternatives to raise fluid levels. My son has recently had some problems (talked about earlier) I am feeling prompted to pursue the issue even though the doc says he is fine I don't feel he is. I believe strongly a mothers intuition is something to be honored and followed.
Good luck I hope everything goes well for you and baby.

[mothernurture]

I wanted to respond last Friday but weekend was very hectic with in-laws visiting (but that's a whole other thread!) from PA.

Beth, I apologize if any of my comments last week offended you. I have spent so much of my life marginalized from mainstream LDS culture that I am having to work harder to extend myself (without sacrificing myself in the process) and try to find common ground with other LDS women. I appreciate your comments and they sparked a great discussion about how to strive toward a more non-judgmental way of interacting with those women around us.

On the luteal phase: A great book that has helped me (when we were TTC) was Taking Charge of Your Fertility by Toni Weschler, MPH. She lives here in Seattle. The book is excellent and I feel I am so much more knowledgeable about my body/cycles than before I read it the first time (before conceiving my son in 1999). Being knowledgeable about my body (whether or not it is related to trying to conceive) is very helpful. The book also documents how to use the natural family planning method of birth control. I have not used the book for those purposes so I can't offer any personal experience in this regard.

I had a deficient luteal phase when TTC my 2nd time... I was an extended breastfeeder with my son (he was 2 and nursing once a day when I conceived baby #2). I believe the nursing plus being on Micronor (progesterone only birth control pill) caused my progesterone levels to d