Just found out Dd's talking dirty on chat line...

[Nursing Mother]

My 15 year old was on her chat line last night until 2:00. So this morning I asked to see what she was talking about because i found out 2 boys from school where also on line. Well talk about a wake up call. It read like a porno-script. Dd was not directly involved in the sex talk, but sure stood by and commented now and then. They described sexual encounters, talked about orgasms, oral sex, "all the benefits" Kinky sex, and on and on. Dd was embarrassed ,but she seemed almost happy I found out, and wasn't mad at all about the snooping. I couldn't believe how "knowledgeable" this 15 year olds where about sexual techniques and all. Blew my mind.

Anyway All chat lines are banned in our house. Even my 12 year old son, knew his sister was up to something because she freaked whenever he came by and peered over her shoulder. I can only imagine what goes on when kids have access to computers and chatlines in the bedrooms. I'm talking dirty, nasty stuff. Making propositions and all. It would have been cleaner reading a Playboy magazine.

Thanks for letting me get this off my chest and all I can say is WATCH that chatline and who's on it.

[Elphaba]

so, how do you handle something like this?
clearly, computer usage has to be modified in some way, but what else do you do? did you two sit and talk about how she got to be so sexually informed? or how this chat room got so popular? or why this is inappropriate behavior?
my daughter is only 4 months, so i have a while before this is an issue, but i want to gather as much knowledge from experienced moms as i can!
one thing i have thought of as far as the computer goes is to have the computer located in a central, hihgly trafficked area, so no clandestine activities can take place. whatever you're looking at is on view for everybody. a fascist approach, i'll admit, but it would force us as parents to be aware of how our kids use the internet. (and by us, i mean me and my hubby, not the collective us here online)

[Lindy]

Sounds like she wanted you to catch her and set some limits.
I know my kids like me to make rules for them. I'm not really a rules person, but if they feel more comfortable saying they can't do something because their parents won't let, then I'm willing.

BTW, I was at the library and over heard a conversation among teenage school kids, and you would not believe what they were talking about. Kinky sex. Very dirty, I was shocked! I never even heard of stuff like that when I was a teen.

I think these kids are just trying to act cool. Just my opinion.
We always try to talk to our kids about everything. My kids seem very conservative. At least right now. I hope my kids always feel comfortable talking to me and dh.

[Maribel]

But how do you call up the script? Just curious really. I'd like to check out where my DH's sister chats. She's only 16 w/a 2 year old. We took her in when she was pregnant.

[Nursing Mother]

Well my dh put some sort of a trace on which then proceeded to print out about 15 pages of a two hour converstation she had had with her friends. I didn't know how to do it on my own, so when I got suspicious I asked him how.

Chat lines seem so innocent, but kids can really get addicted to them, and they find them selves saying things I think they normally wouldn't say verbally in front of their friends. That is why they are banned in our house now. We also have a protector on our internet, so we know if any of our kids are going to porn sites. It blocks of the site and sends me an e-mail saying saying someone tried to get into such and such site. Good for Dh also! The temptation is just so great, and with younger kids in the house I just won't have any part in porn coming in. Our world is perverted enough without that garbage coming into my home.

Yes, we did sit and talk about how she learned all this stuff and funny she brought up 17 magazine. (a mainstream popular teen mag.) There was an article on how to "finger" your boyfriend/girlfriend, so you can share "intimacy" without having intercourse. Can you believe it? Teens today know so much technique and sexuality from books, movies, magazine, but know NOTHING about true sexuality and intimacy. I think its pathetic and wrong how are kids are being sexualized so early by the media and such. It is a real rant of mine. And I am a pretty strict mother, My dd has not even seen an R rated movie. I really need to wake up.

[grisandole]

Hi! I just want to relate to everyone what happened to me when I was that exact age, perhaps it will calm you, maybe not?! It's embarrassing to admit, but I did a very similar thing. :blush Back then, we didn't have the internet (11 years ago!), but my friend (female) and I would write long notes to each other that we would pass between classes at school. These notes would contain VERY graphic descriptions of sexual acts that we had with our boyfriends. Of course, neither of us had a real boyfriend, this was pure fiction. But we talked the talk. Also, when I was in junior high, I wrote books that all the kids read, sort of like "Sweet Valley High", but more realistic, with sex stuff......and there was a boy in our school who would draw very pornographic cartoons. Anyway, back to age 15.......my friend and I would write these letters (in a way they were a fiction novel) and we would save them. Well, one day, my mom discovered them in my folder and FLIPPED OUT!!! She pulled me out of school and wouldn't let me speak to my friend again. She and my dad punished me plenty, and didn't understand my "sick fantasies". And my parents were pretty liberal and open about sex stuff. My point is, I was a virgin (had only kissed 1 guy at that point), I didn't watch pornos or perveted movies, and honestly, I don't know HOW I "knew" what I did. Like your daughter, I got most of it from magazines, listening to people talk, tv shows, and books. I think lots of kids talk like that because it's really a safe outlet for sexual feelings. I wasn't ready for sex, but I was fascinated by it, and talking and writing about it was fun.....it felt healthy in a way. I guess I'm not explaining myself well, but back then it never seemed like a big deal, and I wasn't acting out what I was writing about. They were fantasies......and I think it's good for teens to discuss sex. Anyway, I've rambled on enough.....:rolleyes:

[Alexander]

Originally posted by grisandole
I think lots of kids talk like that because it's really a safe outlet for sexual feelings. I wasn't ready for sex, but I was fascinated by it, and talking and writing about it was fun.....it felt healthy in a way.

They were fantasies......and I think it's good for teens to discuss sex.

Absolutly right.

The fastest way to turn this into a sick perversin is to go ballistic and to "talk down" to the kids.

This kind of chit chat is the best way for young adults to let off steam, and discover what's what about their bodies.

It is through this kind of talk that the limits of acceptable behavior is explored, and that young adults learn where and how to say "no".

I would hate to think that we should go back to the "dark fifties" where married couples remained mostly ignorantof the pleasures of sex.

It can't be that long ago that you were a teen. Surely you remember that you too had "hot talk" with your friends?

a

[Nursing Mother]

I would hate to think that we should go back to the "dark fifties" where married couples remained mostly ignorantof the pleasures of sex.

I'm not quite sure what this has to do with the subject.

I realise this is probably just a phase and kids feel quite powerful when they can "talk dirty" so to speak. Most kids can spout off a lot of garbage, and that doesn't mean of course they are experienced in what they say.

What got to me most was the specifc information these kids had about sexual techniques, sodomy, beastiality, male and female anatomy, oral sex, and so on. Yet I really wonder how many know the the importance of a true "sexual relationship". The things of course we are trying to instill in our daughter. I believe what is in the mind comes out of the mouth, so obviously this garbage is in their minds, and I would prefer my dd to be concentrating on her sports, studying and social skills. Of couse some may say this is all part of her learning her social skills. I have 3 younger kids though and will not risk that porn talk in my house.

Thanks Gris. for your input. I believe what you say is true. Kids go through these naughty stages of "experiencing" and thank god it is mostly just talk I know enough about kids that they love to push their parents buttons. When we talked with her we did not let on at all how shocked we really were inside. We just told her this is unacceptable and the chat line is gone. We mentioned the danger of posting her picture (which she did) and the chance of being lured by on-line molesters. A real danger in this day and age.

[Lindy]

Nursing Mother, I think you did exactly the right thing.

[Nursing Mother]

Thanks Lindy, and you have a degree is Psychology right?:p

[Bee]

I definitely think you did the right thing, and handled it really well!

One other thing I wanted to say about the situation....
When our kids are chatting about extreme sexual situations - especially in a chat room where kids tend to be much more "open" than face to face, it can give the other people in the chat room the wrong idea about that kid. Even though the kid may just be "curious" about sex, and using it as an outlet, someone else on that chat room might think they are "in to" those things, and pressure them at school or parties.

I only say that because my 15 year old cousin went into a chat room that included a few guys from her school that she didn't know too well. Basically because of curiousity and the excitement of the situation, she stayed and listened to the convo, adding a few things here and there.
But she regretted it, because the guys that were in that chat room assumed she was interested, and proceeded to harrass her sexually for quite a while, until the authorities were notified.

[Nursing Mother]

Wow, what a lesson learned. And yes I agree with you totally. I have always told my kids to never portray a person they never are. Be real, don't pretend, let people see the true you. I'll mention that to my dd, just another reason to watch your mouth. Others could certainly get the wrong idea. Thanks Bee

[lilyka]

I work with kids in a church setting and am sad to say that these things are not just talk and fantacies but that kids are really doing these things. It is quite disturbing to me and I feel NM did the right thing to step in. My kids were still a little wierded out by how far people would go infront of others and how much they would even confess. They actually seemed comforted when I told them that these things weren't acceptable behavior and not entirely normal (masterbating in class, masturbation races, playing uncle with others genitals, oral sex in the halls between classes etc . . and I have middle schoolers). Magazines like 17 are not IMHO appropriate for teenagers. I would go so far as to consider them soft porn. Movies and magazines keep pushing further and further and everytime someone says "this is perfectly normal" kids feel compelled to live up to that and thus the bar is raised. Sorry I think I have wandered off topic, my point is

Nursing mother you did exactly the right thing. I am sure she appreciates that you care about her and her having a healthy understanding of sex and sexuality.

[Nursing Mother]

Wow, thanks so much Lilyka. Not many really agree with me on many issues, that really means a lot that you did not just say "Oh teens will be teens" etc. There really are some dangerous stuff going on among teens these days, not like when we where teens and joked around about stuff. The drugs available now, and the STD are so so common. It can be a matter of life and death if you take them sexual stuff to far, and often that does include drugs, because it lowers their inhibitation about things. Seventeen magazine is not the magazine it used to be. Y&M is even worse.

I am sure the work you are doing among your church youth is very very important. More teens need supportive, open, spiritual adults like yourself guiding them in the two-faced culture of ours.

[lilyka]

I remember being grossed out by the sexual stuff in 17 when I was a teenager (which was about 10 years ago). It is where I learned most of what I knew about kinky stuff. Well, that and the guys on drumline with me but I knew they were just making stuff up to impress me ;) .

And Nursing Mother, I always agree with you.:love You are my hero and role modle.

[Snow]

Hi! As the mom of a 13 yr old dd, just want to add 2 things

1) You also can't assume that the 14 yr old girl in the chat room w/ your dd is really all that - too often turns out to be a 45 yr old man. There are adults who have posed as adolescents for so long that when the kids see them on line, they feel that they know these "Kids" and will divulge way too much.

2)We have to stay in the room while our kids are online. It's a real hassle - but we really have to do it. You may have a policy against posting pictures (very wise) but when her "14 yr old friend" posts a pic, then pressures your dd to do the same, it is very easy for dd to assume all is OK, and that Mom is just being overprotective again. If you are right there, it can't happen. We keep our desk top off line, so that she can go into the office and do homework. But if she wants to go online, then has to use the laptop in the kitchen.

By the way, I totally agree w/ the teen mags mentioned. And I am guilty of getting her a sub. for Seventeen without reading through it carefully - have really regretted that. It used to be a "fashion" mag, nothing like now.

[Nursing Mother]

JW, As far as I know Alex, hasn't been back here, but I hope he reads what you said, but it was good and I agree with it.

[Snow]

I'm with you both on this. As parents we have to speak our values loudly clearly and often. That doesn't mean that we are limiting information or that we are trying to create ignorant young adults, whether or not the young adults were truly all that ignorant in the '50s (birth of the baby boom). Knowlege is power and that includes knowlege of your family's values.

[Natashka]

This is off-topic a bit... I was shocked, not by the "dirty-talk", but by the involvement with online "friends" that all of you mention... Is this NORMAL? Sad... I know it sounds funny from someone enjoying a discussion group, but... What percentage of time does online time occupy?

[Snow]

Yes, this is normal today. My own teen has too many things going on after school to spend much time in a chat room or im'ing her friends, but many of her friends will spend a few hours a day at it. That is why I won't allow a computer in her bedroom! I also work w/ several teens and preteens who live for their online friends. I took a workshop last month on protecting our children online ---- learned so many scary facts. The teacher showed us online what the kids are exposed to. Showed us also letters from "kids" who were long time members of the chat room/im group/etc. Even scarier. Someone who you are convinced is 13 (with all the lingo, misspellings, complaints about parents, stories of abuse, etc) sends them a photo of "herself", and of course the kids respond in kind. It's a middle aged pedophile. And the teacher showed us how even the most innocuous details disclosed in chat can identify & locate our kids. Even if our kids don't disclose name and address or send a photo. For example, info about a soccer game - the name of the team, the opposing team, the field they were playing at etc ----- or a teacher's name -----or maybe a concert they saw last night ---both of those things can identify a city pretty quick. Only takes a few more details and they can be following your child irl. It happens.

[Els' 3 Ones]

I just want to say "thank you" NM. It may have been hard for you to post this here (it would have been for me) but I think it helped to open a lot of peoples eyes. It helped to cement my thoughts about children on the internet and chat rooms.

It may sound harsh but we will not allow our children in "chat" rooms. It is not an issue yet b/c they are way to young but this is what will be said in the future also. It is just too risky and too hard to supervise, IMO. I have been online for 5 years and have never "chatted" !!! Does this make me a freak? I'm a very verbal person and just don't think I'd like to carry on so blindly in a "room". This board is it for me..........I'd like to post at a couple other places but, quite frankly, I just don't have the time.

I think you handled it well. I also think it made a great impression on your children that the chat could be printed and read by you. Not a week goes by that there isn't something written about another sting operation tied to the chat rooms. Cops are picking up people right and left that are waiting to meet a child they got to know online. I've been preaching to my friends with teenagers for a couple of years now, to no avail I'm afraid.

[Nursing Mother]

Thanks so much Els' 3 one, like I said I don't get a lot of affirmaiton on my "conservative" views, so it means a lot when momma's like you and JW agree with me on this one. I will also tell dd, of the agreement I am finding on this thread. She sometimes think I am to old-fashion and that this topic is a Christian thing, when it really isn't. Chat lines not only use up so much time like Snow said, but the potential danger lies there also.

As far as dh and I are concerned there will be no more chat lines in this house. I will not allow a computer in their rooms either. We actually have 4 computers in the house now, including my laptop, so I can imagine for other families how it must be to be monitering their kids. It is a full-time job just keeping up with what your kids are watching on T.V. and what they are doing on the computer. I just hate this free access that our kids have to the media and other questionable junk, that just seems to come into our home. It was easy when the kids were young. Now that they are older, it gets more challenging every day.

[grisandole]

I don't allow my son on the internet. At all. He's 9, and I just don't find it necessary. He's computer literate, and plays computer games and such, but I don't let him go online. I feel the negatives outweigh the positives. Many people think I'm overprotective and backwards, but I don't care. And for me, it isn't only a protective issue, but about the fact that I'd rather he read a book or do an art project than surf the net. As for chatting, I'd rather he write a letter to a pen pal. Old fashioned, perhaps, but it works for us.

[Nursing Mother]

Hey, I think thats great, grisandole. Its just that the challenge gets harder as your kids get older. Both my teens do a lot of homework on line now, and forget about the library. All their research is also done online. I wish some teachers would "force" the kids to go to the library. Do you know that in some high-schools now kids e-mail their homework to their teachers. One class my ds goes to, the teacher has the kids e-mail. It is a special class where all the kids are on laptops and they are learning networking and everything else about computers. Times have really changed.

[Natashka]

I appreciate your responses about online time. Makes me lean towards homeschooling as I think ahead. Thank you. Definitely, a brave new world...

[barbara]

NursingMother,
I just want to add that I think you did the right thing also!

I was just discussing this with my married daughter. We want to warn moms that homeschooling does not protect your children from this kind of thing. My daughter was homschooled and only had "good christian friends" but still fell into this trap. She feels it is VERY DANGEROUS! Once you open yourself up to talk about sex you cross a line and you're more open to do it. Your thoughts will more easily go there and it is easier and natural to go futher and push the limits. She says that christian kids are just as fasinated with sex, if not more so. Her husband also was homeschooled and spent far too much time on the computer in chat rooms. He felt it was a very unhealthy way be living and that all the sex talk causes an obsession with it.

We have our computer in the main area of our house where anyone can read over your shoulder at any time, and our teenagers aren't allow on after mom and dad have gone to bed.
They aren't crazy about that, but understand the temptations.

We really can't be too careful...fantasys are one thing, but sharing them with others only leads to trouble.

I'm convinced that teens need to have LOTS of other interests to keep them busy!

[Dan Frank]

I suppose you wouldn't approve of this same daughter having sex with a boy her age, either, eh?

I find such a stance unfortunate for your daughter... sex is a natural part of life and growing up (note, not just a special treat reserved for those who have already crossed the imaginary invisible line into 'adulthood'), and talking about sex, or explicitly describing sexual acts for the purpose of sexual arousal, is just an aspect of the above.

Describing such acts online is little more than assisted masturbation... akin to reading an erotic novel, but instead one knows (or assumes or pretends, depending on how little is known of the person on the other end) that there's an actual person doing the same thing. She is growing up, and exploring more aspects of herself. This is a good thing.

I find what you said about teenage pregnancy interesting, Just Wondering, because in many countries sexual education is very different than in America. Many years ago I read a research paper on sex ed in a scandinavian county... I don't recall which (Sweden perhaps?). The paper, which cited a decent (not remarkable, but certainly believable) number of sources, reported the following: In at least some kindergarten classes, children practiced putting a condom on a banana. The average age at which teens lost their virginity was 15. And their rate of teenage pregnancy was a startlingly small fraction of our own (this was a long time ago, and I do not have the paper in front of me. . . I don't recall the actual percentage).

The abundance of teenage pregnancy in our society is not due to our teens having sex before they are 'ready'. . . it is due to people, such as parents and schools, being more preoccupied with telling them they aren't ready than with helping them to be ready.

[Dan Frank]

I am also appalled by the fact that children and teenagers are being denied the right to A) the Internet, and B) Chat rooms.

As for A. . . well, I can't see the 'negatives' outweighing the 'positives' by any stretch of the imagination. The Internet is a source for a remarkable amount of information, suitable for a variety of ages. For overprotective parents of the very young, there are a variety of netfilters available. While there is some deeply twisted stuff out there, it seems like maybe instead of pretending it doesn't exist, one could actually talk to their children about it.

I can't count the times my 2 year old nephew has gotten to see all sorts of interesting things on the internet. . . animals (have you ever heard of a Cerval? it's a kind of wild cat. . . like a cheetah), fire trucks, and the 'Scary Guy', who's website touts him as the 'Only LIVE Comic Book Hero' who strives to end prejudice worldwide.

I have never had ANY kind of popups while surfing with him. . . and I have also never seen, with him or alone, any popup porn worse than a guy and a gal having pretty uninteresting, straightforward sex (and you don't mind if your kid sees that, right? Regardless of how old they are when they do, your kids are going to have sex one day. . . they shouldn't start out thinking it's something shameful or bad). Never seen popups of child pornography, or pictures of people getting shot to pieces in Afghanistan, or of horses having sex with dogs. Those kinds of things generally require one to be actively seeking them.


As for B) Chat rooms are great fun. I do nearly everything in chat rooms that I do in RL, from discussing parenting, to arranging get-togethers, to playing Dungeons and freakin' Dragons! I, unfortunately, never really learned typing as a child, and so I have had to settle for a relatively-speedy, never-look-down, three- fingered style of typing.

The threat of perverts is overrated, in my experience. Every friend I have met over the internet I know to be who they say they are. Many I have met in person. Beforehand, I have always known a great deal about them (As well as seen photographs and spoken over the phone). . . many facts of which were verifiable. Perhaps because I believe I can take care of myself, I have never verified them. . . I've never met anyone in person but friends. Perhaps if I were female, or went by a female-sounding handle, this would not be the case. . . I have no way of knowing.

Regardless, I think the Net should be open to all, as it is by far the greatest means of gaining information available.

Then again, for all you know I'm an 80 year old pedophile/rapist General of the US Army who's just posting to try and get an unsuspecting young mother to email me. :D

[Snow]

Whether or not you would raise your own child that way, you do have to remember it is Nursing Mother's right and responsibility to share her own personal standards and expectations with her daughter.

And 15 is on the young side. But whether or not you would raise your daughter like that isn't the point. Nursing Mother didn't say she felt this was wrong for your daughter, she said she is concerned for HER daughter. I don't always agree with her. But this time I do.

[abimommy]

I agree that 15 is pretty young. I think you should just talk to your dd about it...I don't really know what you could say..LOL but it sounds like she needs a hobby or something.....if she had some sort of hobby she could get on boards that involved something other than just teen chat...YKWIM?? which in itself is just creaming for dirty talk to go on....

half the people on those are probably 80 year old pedophile/rapists

[jasnjakesmama]

:eek
Nursing Mother, I think you did the right thing. And I do believe your DD was probably grateful that you stepped in. Alot of times teens get involved in things they are just not ready for because of peer pressure. I wish someone had stepped in and found out about some of the things I was doing as a teen.

[3boys4us]

NM I think you did the right thing. She's too young to realize what sex and love are really about. And ITA with not having computer in her room. My oldest is only 8 but one of his friends has his own computer. I know I saw on Oprah (or something) that it is important to keep computers in a room where everyone has access and can be seen.

[Dan Frank]

Ah, Snow, but my reply was not just to Nursing Mother. It was to everyone , especially any mothers here who are undecided, as something of a counterpoint to the views thus far expressed. Unlike nearly every other poster, I don't think barring a teenager from the internet for exploring their sexuality in perhaps the safest possible way is the correct course of action. I was thus expressing my view in the hopes that, should another mother find herself in a similar situation, she might consider all sides of the situation before punishing her daughter unduly. I apologize if what I said seemed to be a personal attack, it was not meant as such.

[Snow]

Thanks.

I personally don't ban my teen from the internet, but rather keep only the laptop in the kitchen on line. That way she can do her homework at the desk top if she wants, but if she wants to go online then there are always other people around.
Obviously that will thwart her explorations (!) and I'm OK with that. She has access to whatever books she wants to read on the subject and parents who are always available to answer questions. I understand what you are saying about internet safety, but I just don't agree. I have a friend who works for a large police dept in the area of internet child porn and internet child molesters. I attended one of her workshops and what I learned was sobering.

Respectfully, do you have a teenager? I only ask that because am normally very left wing liberal, and now with my baby out there am much more aware of how vulnerable she really is and feel the need to protect her whether or not she thinks she needs said protection. If I only had younger kids, then my only experience with teens would be my own experience as a teenager, and as a teen I thought teens were very mature, self sufficient and invinceable --- concepts proven wrong as my dd turned 13!

[glh]

Snow-I was thinking of asking that same question myself. You cannot imagine what having a teen is like until you've been there.

[jasnjakesmama]

Absolutely. And furthermore, I do not think the internet is the safest place for a teenager to explore their sexuality. There are some graphic and disturbing images that can be found on the net.
Keeping the computer in a heavily trafficked space in the house seems to be the best idea so far.

[abimommy]

I do **NOT** think the internet is an appropiate place for teens to discuss their sexuality.

I bet on "teen chat" room that 90% are sick 40 year old perverts. I **CANNOT** believe any thinking person would suggest such a horrid thing.

If I had a 15 year old I would rather them go do whatever on their own with someone THEIR OWN AGE than fall prey to some sicko who would destroy the innocence of my child with their disgusting perversion. However I would hope that I had taught my child to hold true to their morals.

[jasnjakesmama]

Originally posted by abimommy
I bet on "teen chat" room that 90% are sick 40 year old perverts. I **CANNOT** believe any thinking person would suggest such a horrid thing.

If I had a 15 year old I would rather them go do whatever on their own with someone THEIR OWN AGE than fall prey to some sicko who would destroy the innocence of my child with their disgusting perversion.

ITA!

[AutumnMoonfire]

The internet is so not a safe place for a teen to explore sexuality. A teen is exposed to too many dangers, 45 yo perverts or 19 yo guys who're looking for an easy lay...all right in any medium size american town. 10-20 years ago I was a young teen with an active imagination. Most of it stayed right there in my head. I cannot imagine how hard it must be to monitor teens today, I have 2 dd's and I plan to keep careful tabs on their computer activities when they get older. Such trash talk is dangerous and can ruin lives.

I have to say this too...I question Dan's motives, But this is wholly my own opinion...

[jasnjakesmama]

I understand what you are saying about motives....I will reserve judgement at this time and hope for the best. :)

[Alexander]

Originally posted by abimommy
I do **NOT** think the internet is an appropiate place for teens to discuss their sexuality.



Maybe not the best place, but certainly open and non-judgemental.


I bet on "teen chat" room that 90% are sick 40 year old perverts.

lol

Well! 90% huh? They must be a disappointed and frustrated lot!

a

[Alexander]

Originally posted by AutumnMoonfire


I have to say this too...I question Dan's motives, But this is wholly my own opinion...

Ouch!

YUK!

Within this difficult and sensitive subject, this is tanatmount to an accusation! Much like accusing a woman who defends an accused witch in the middle ages, of being one herself. There is no defence to that type of fear generated by being fearful of each other.

It is a hole we do not want to find ourselves falling into.

Please stop this practice immediately.

a

[Snow]

Alexander, personally, I didn't question his motives but just wondered if he had teens of his own. It makes a lot of difference, and you may not believe me until you are there. But when my dd1 turned 13, everything changed - it's hard to describe what it is like until you go through it.

Now, if someone else wants to question Dan's motives I personally wouldn't call them on it in this case. You have to admit that for him being a newcomer and coming directly to a thread with this title, and then posting what he did, can lead to speculation. IMHO it is a totally different kettle of fish than having a known commodity post an opposing viewpoint on something this sensitive. YKWIM? It's not that it's an opposing viewpoint, which anyone is entitled to, it's the context.

Does that make sense?

[lilyka]

Perfect sence. I totally agree.

I agree too that an internet chatroom is not a safe place for children to explore sexuality (of course imho marriage is the only safe place for people to explore thier sexuality). First there are the people you don't know. enough said. Then there are the people you do know. How do you know how they are going to use the information you type. For all you know someone could print off your intimate fanticies and post them on the hallway bulliten board for the whole school to see. Nice. There is a quick way to wreck a gorls sexual security for a good long time. it is easier to type things here because I don't have to see the looks of judgement on peoples faces and know that most of the people here don't know me personally or anyone I know. It feels safer., but in reality it is not.

Sandra

[Dale]

How much do we know about Dan?
He lists his occupation as professional loafer. His homepage is www.nonexistent.com. He states in another thread that he is not a dad. Dan, how long has it been since you were a teenager? Or are you one still?

[Dan Frank]

Hoo-doggy!
Inquisition time.

First of all, I'm not a newcomer... I'm a lurker. There's a difference. I have thus far been observing the Dads board, the Preteens and Teens board (for obvious reasons), and the Gentle Parenting Board.

And my sister, as it says below, used to frequent Mothering. Dale, does the fact that I'm not a parent mean I am automatically wrong? Since BEING a parent doesnt automatically make one right (somehow I don't think any of you would condone beating a child with a rod, now, would you?), why would the reverse be true? (as an aside, I am a professional loafer because I don't think "Student" is a job... I don't get paid.)

Snow might say it doesn't make me wrong, but that I don't understand because I haven't gone through it... maybe all parents do. Except, my mom didn't. I know she wouldn't be much fazed or upset if I had cybersex... she knows that I am intelligent (gasp) person who knows what he is doing.

I wrote the below post yesterday, but due to reasons unclear to me, couldn't post it. I was on a PC, and I must admit I'm a bit Windows Illiterate.


In fact, I myself am a teenager (gasp), and not a parent (my older sister, however, is, and I enjoy discussing parenting issues with her... hence my reason for coming here)

I have never had cybersex, or engaged in particularly explicit talk with anyone via a chat room. I know some people who have, none of which would particularly want their parents to know.

I have a few questions for anyone here who 'questions my motives' and continues to spout the tired rhetoric that perverts patrol teen chatrooms, looking to prey on innocent girls.

How many such perverts have you actually encountered? Stories about them were big in Reader's Digest for a while, but really, personally... have you encountered one?

Do you think your child is going to go and look for some of the really sick and twisted stuff that passes for 'pornography' and 'entertainment' out there? If so, I think you should have a long talk with them, and seriously consider professional counseling. If not, then that's really not a harm at all.

Nursing Mother, was your daughter chatting in a public Teen Chatroom forum, or via some other form of chat like AIM or a more specific ircle channel? If the former, then perverts are certainly possible... if the latter, then it was likely a planned rendezvous with some of her friends, perhaps even friends in RL.

Additionally... let's say your (a general your, now) daughter is in a public forum teen chatroom, likely frequented by bored and/or lonely teens, and by the occasional sick 80 year old pedophile/rapists So? What are these disturbed individuals going to do to harm your daughter? Is your daughter really so naive and dumb to not do any form of checking on this person whatsoever, and just go meet him behind your back in a public place the day after she meets him? And 'dumb', while a harsh judgement, is a TRUE judgement.

Teens are generally at least vaguely aware of what's going on in the society at large... I don't know a single person, age 12-18, who would do such a foolish thing. Many friends of mine, female and male, have met friends, even occasional romances, through the net. I'd say these all total easily 200 people counting all sides of the equation. Not one involved anyone pretending to be anything other than who they are.

And if your teen HAS spent the last 10 years in a cave, with her eyes shut and her fingers in her ears, and has never heard of pedophiles and rapists on the net... then maybe you should discuss them with her, rather than tell her she can't use the net, just because.

The internet is only as dangerous as one makes it.

Posted by a 16 year old, inexperienced in all forms of sex due to personal moral stances and lack of opportunity combined. (Of course, you don't have to believe me if you don't want to... I kind of prefer it when people think I'm an adult, as they listen to me a bit more)

[Nursing Mother]

I'm not sure whats going on here, but I am definintely not getting good vibesl. Dan your reasoning is unacceptable. It sounds like you really like the idea of allowing teens on chat lines and such even when blantant sexuality is being discussed. Sorry, not normal in my book. Exactly who are you?

[Dan Frank]

Just out of curiousity... did you actually read my monolithic post? I said exactly who I am... I am a teen who thinks that, rather than 'allowing' teens, parents should help their teens to explore their interests in whatever way they see fit. If this means the parent should give their child information about the potential dangers of the internet (which, as I said, I believe to be superfluous), then that is what the parent should do.

My sister thinks just about all I need to do to get myself banned at this point is say: "TCS"....

we'll see ;)

[Nursing Mother]

We posted at the same time. Dan thanks for explaining yourself a bit. However I find your attitude quite condesending being that you yourself do not have a teen-age daughter. You seem to also think that internet chatlines are a great "educational" sexual experience for young people. As you can see most of the mothers here disagree. Thanks snow and others for agreeing with me on this one. I have seen and done research on internet porn and only one who has seen the suff would believe the horrible perversion that is targeted to our children via, chatlines, and other sites. (thats another thread btw) Perverts are alive and well. Just last week here in Seattle a whole network of child porn users were arrested,(teachers, military officier and others) why? for luring young kids (on chatlines) to meet with them and hopefully have sex. What a crazy world. Dan, WAKE UP!

And thank-you wonderful mothers, thank God we have the intuition to know what is right and not-right for our own be-loved children. (excuse me if this sounds sexist)

...and Dan thankyou for your interest in this subject, but you don't sound like a teen to me. Yes, call me skeptical..if you wish, I'm allowed, I am just the mother of 5 children trying to raise them in this overly-materialistic, sexually explicit, perverted culture of ours!

[Dan Frank]

I am well aware of the multitude of horrific stuff masquerading for porn out there... Firstly, what does the disgusting pornography have to do with your daughter? She won't go looking for it, will she? Besides, chances are she knows what it is, and just has no interest in it. So, how does it affect her? It doesnt.

As for perverts... I never said they didn't exist. I asked if you know any teens, or anyone who has a teen, who has succumbed to the wiles of a internet pervert. Stories of pedophiles being arrested is kind of like stories of plane crashes... they ALWAYS make the news, at least at a local level. Car crashes often don't. By the same token, all the stories of people meeting friends and even spouses over the net just don't get the same kind of coverage, because they're too common. Not to mention positive and devoid of scandal...

You never answered my question about the type of chatline. AIM and many ircle channels are completely closed, which means she would know (in rl or via the net) the people she was talking to.


Wow... so I'm really a middle aged perv, eh? Thanks for informing me.

Daniel Jackson Frank
DOB: 11/04/85
Height: nearly 6 ft
weight: 180 or so
Exceptionally long hair.
Born in: Oakland, CA, by Cesarean section.
Current Residence: Robin Hood Drive (yes, it's a real street)El Sobrante, CA
Two sisters, one brother. All are at least 10 years older than me.

I would give my social security number, but that would just be stupid :)

And I would give my full address, but then I might be mail bombed or assaulted by overzealous conservative parents.

[Snow]

Dan, thanks for coming back to explain yourself. You may actually be a 16 year old boy. I may actually be a 16 year old boy. Who knows? That's the beauty of the internet.

I'm glad that you don't know of any 12-18 year old kids who "would such a foolish thing" as to meet up with someone they met on the internet. Well, I do, and she's in the next room!

Respectfully, let me tell you a little about what is out there. Just because you haven't encountered it doesn't mean it's not there. This workshop that I took wasn't just a lecture with the participants just taking notes and nodding our heads at what was said. Nope, we got on the computers and took them for a spin. We visited teen chat rooms, private rooms, IMing, and linked sites etc. The images were fast and furious.

We also read case histories from our own neighborhoods, of predators who had lured (both boys and girls) to a meeting. And even scarier was when there was no luring involved. The latter involved detective work, and not much, to determine the teen's identities and locations. And then the predator just goes and finds them - easy. Way too easy. It doesn't take a kid agreeing to meet someone the day after meeting them, like you suggested. These kids NEVER agreed to meet anyone at all. Most never posted a picture, name or address. All they were doing was talking to a "15 year old girl" on line, the same one who's been on that site for the past month. Maybe "she" has even posted a picture.

It can take as little as mentioning your soccer game one week and the name of the team that won. Maybe the next week you are chatting about the NSync concert you saw last night. And 2 weeks later you bitch about you algebra 2 teacher Ms Belling. OK - now he's got you. Can you see how? The concert identified your city. The team that beat you identified your team, by using the date of the game and then that identifies the field you played at - thus your neighborhood. Then a search of the local high schools staffs leads to your algebra 2 teacher, and a search of the class roster (easily hacked) provides the names of all the kids, which are then cross referenced against the names of the kids on your soccer team..... minutes later he has your home address and phone number. And after having been online with you for 4 weeks, he knows your daily schedule and will become a part of it tomorrow.

Honey, this happens all too often.

What are the odds of this happening to my 13 year old daughter? Pretty slim, given all that. But I'm not playing roulette with a child that means more to me than life itself.

[Dale]

Dan,

No. Not being a father does not make you wrong. I noticed some others in the thread questioning your motives as though you might be one of those predatory older males looking for naive teen girls on the net. It occured to me that you sounded like a teenager yourself in your defense of teens in chat rooms, so I was just trying to point that you might be one.

You think you've been inquisitioned? You should have been around a couple months ago when I first started posting here. Stay cool. I think you'll be appreciated here but not necessarily right away.

[Nursing Mother]

Thanks Dale for bringing that up. Yes, I remember the inquisition you went through, I was in on that . After time however, yes a person gains respect from others by their posting over time. Dan, we just need to see you around the boards a bit more. I noticed you have all of 8 posts total. Thats just not enough for most of us "skeptical" ones like me to know you are on the up & up with us here on Mothering. Your opinion is entirely welcome, but do expect some cynicism and doubt especially on a subject like this.

Snow, thanks for your reality check:thumb

[Dan Frank]

Yes, thanks for the reality check.

I'll chime in with a reality check of my own.

First of all, Snow, you misquoted me. I didn't say I don't know anyone who would meet someone they met on the net... I said I don't know anyone who would do so WITHOUT any background information/verification.

There are many ways of verification.

Firstly, there is the obvious... lengthy, personal discussions... but that could be faked (though it would get difficult, if one were to correspond for as long as most people I know do). Then, there are phone calls. Now, if you are masquerading as someone of a different sex, you really can't do phone calls. if not, then perhaps a 40 year old man could replicate a teenage voice... I don't know. Of course, photos can simply be of other people.

Then, you can get fancy. Know all those tricks a rapist can use, taking things said and so on? So can a teen, if so inclined. I have never felt inclined to run a background check, but I know a few people who have. It's not too hard.

Of these pre-meeting precautions, the phone is probably the best way, since it's easy and pretty hard to fake.

Then, there are meeting precautions. First of all, generally public places are good. Additionally, bringing friends is good.

However, statistically speaking, teenage girls perhaps cannot be relied upon to take actual meeting precautions (phone calls, on the other hand, every teen with any vestige of information will do)

I say this because my brother in law just told me to say it. He recently saw a documentary/type thing, in which some people did a sort of test. THey got three big, gruff guys, dressed em up to look scarier (dirty leather jackets, crewcuts, etc), and put em in a van with blacked out windows. Then they got a fourth guy to approach girls, offer them 50$ to be in a magazine shoot, and asked em to get in the van. A startling number of girls did it.

Now one might say this counterracts my previous arguments that teens are smart... but if you accept the above as a fact (as opposed to a side effect of keeping teens in the dark instead of giving them information), then really, if you don't allow chat room access you might as well ban them from walking down the street, too... the likelihood of them getting kidnapped and raped is higher.

You do "let" your kids walk down the street alone, no? You talk of the chances being slim, and not wanting to "play roulette"... but the chances of their being raped are significantly higher doing many other things, as can be seen by the statistics below. Their chances of DYING are great while in cars... do you "let" them ride in cars, or are they to walk everywhere? Course, then they're susceptible to rape again... darn. Better just lock em in the closet Harry Potter style, eh?

I have taken a somewhat sarcastic, flippant attitude (obviously). My reason for this is simple: I think forbidding your child from engaging in highly beneficial (not necessarily cybersex, though I still maintain it is not harmful, but rather use of the internet and chatrooms as a whole) because there is a small percentage of risk involved is folly. Instead, a parent should discuss the benefits and drawbacks to a given subject, and let the child make an informed decision for themself.


And here are the statistics for the two afore-mentioned topics.

On rape, this from the D of J:
68% of all rape victims actually know their rapist .

28% of all rape victims are raped by their husbands or boyfriends, and
5% by their relatives.

45% of all rapists were under the effects of alcohol or other drugs (and thus, likely not wholly twisted perverts who spent weeks cultivating their victim).

So really, no boyfriends, no male relatives... heck, just eliminate her friends altogether. The chances of her being raped far outweigh any possible benefits of so-called "Human Contact".


And this on car crashes, from the NHTSA

37,409 people were killed in car accidents in the year 2000. That's a whole lotta people.

Motor vehicle crashes are the leading cause of death in teens.

approximately 8,000 of those were teenage drivers, and 75-80% of teenage-driver accidents are simply caused by driver error. Only 5-25% of teenage car accidents are caused by alcohol. (the variations are due to varying percentages for teens ages 16-19)

So basically, theres no WAY you should "let" your kid go driving before she's 20, and it's probably better to bypass car travel altogether.

There are some good bike statistics, too, but I won't bore you with them.

Posted by someone who understands reality just fine, thanks.

[Alexander]

Originally posted by Dale
You think you've been inquisitioned? You should have been around a couple months ago when I first started posting here. Stay cool. I think you'll be appreciated here but not necessarily right away.

Ditto on that.

I find this thread to be over-reative to the idea that teens use private chat rooms to discuss sex. My feeling (which may be wrong) is that parents that object, do so primarily because they object to their teen "talking dirty". If they were to do this with their friends in the privicy of their own bedrooms, would the objectors on this thread object.

I suspect so, in which case, the "reasoning" that they are subjecting themselves to risk is merely a cover for preventing teens from doing this.

If the objection is that they are subjecting themselves to risk, then educating the teens about secure Virtual Rooms is the solution.

Of course, I am male, and nearly 40! ;) but have no idea how to use a chat room!

LOL

Um, and probably more than 500 posts (can't see just now).

a

[Dan Frank]

Alexander...

I agree. And on top of that, I don't see anything wrong with teens 'talking dirty' if they feel like they're ready to do so.

And yes, my primary reason for posting this is to get double digit posts :D Whoohoo!

[Alexander]

Go Dan my Man!

I just noticed that that was post 700! Not 500! So does that mean I am well respected? Or not finding enough time to check out the teens in the Chat Room?

Just kidding along guys!

a

[Dan Frank]

If i was smart, I'd have broken up some of my multi-pagers into several posts. Darn! :crying

[Alexander]

Stop that now!

Darn is such a naughty word!

a

[barbara]

Gentleman,
First I want to say that I appreciate having a male perspective now and again on these boards! Thanks for sticking around.

I do want to interject that the male perspective on some subjects will be different than the female. (that will probably get my feminists friends all over me) In this case I think that coming from a male viewpoint, you may be missing the emotional danger that moms (being female) see so clearly. For a guy "dirty talk" and cybersex are perhaps a sexual exploration, or a momentary release of sexual tension. For a girl it is more complex. Her emotions are tied up deeply in her sexual exploration and for most young girls can not be seperated. Most girls will not simply have an experience "talking dirty" and leave it there. They will continue be effected in their emotions and fantasy life. Perhaps this is ok for some, but as a parent of a teenage daughter NM is concerned about that kind of sexual exploration for her daughter. I think both you men might feel differently when you have a daughter of your own...perhaps not...but at least you may consider that effects on young girls are different than that of most boys.

Dan, I think you are a very articulate 16 year old young man, and I do understand that most adults won't take you seriously when they know your age. I have several teenagers and young adult children that have the same problem. I personally find that age is seldom an accurate measure of intelligence.

Peace,

[AutumnMoonfire]

Dan, you misrepresented yourself. That is very easy to do on the net, and just my point. We can't know who is in a chat room. It might be safe one day and not safe another. It was your assumed persona that set off alarm bells in my mind, especially given the topic of this thread. You may very well be a teenager, but be aware you have destroyed your crdibilty with me by having misrepresented yourself.

I too am familiar with rape stats, date rape is included in the definition of "knowing your attacker". I also doubt that a 15 year old girl can make the moment to moment safety choices in such an encounter. and said attacker might not be an older guy. It could be a 19yo who says he is 17 and the 15yo may not be aware that he has "plans".

Teen girls and guys have diffrent expectations of life and dating and sexuality. If a chat room could be absolutely guarenteed as to the participants I might feel differently, but that is not the case. Also people do lurk in chatrooms, maybe never saying a word, like you have lurked these boards, I support NMs concearns but I bet I am still way liberal compared to her.

Finally people can and do lie with statistics all the time. Look at politics, where it happens daily...

[deardee]

I have been reading this thread and I understand the points of view of all of the participants. It is a scary world and every parent wants to do all they can to keep their children from harm. One small slip could lead to terrible consequences. What can parents do? I think that the strongest protection that a child can have is to be armed with clear perceptitions, creativity, intelligence, knowlege of the realities of the world, a workable ethical frame work, confidence and hopefully empathy and consideration for others. These qualities develop from experience, from trying and making mistakes and trying again. When children of all ages are not with their parents they try out all kinds of behavior and generally break the rules. The time that we can have the illusion of controlling their behavior is all too brief. They will be alone in many potentially dangerous situations. We can not always be with them. I have tried to give my children a framework of ethics based on compassion and caring that they can take with them. I have felt that this is more important than conventional morality or rote obedience to social mores. For me, a test was if my children acted the same way with people when they were aware of my presence as when they thought no adults were watching them. Often this was the case. Now they are generally people I am happy to have as friends-kind, creative, intelligent, and fun. By the way, I am Dan's mother and overhearing his conversations with my daughter about this directed me to this sight.

[Nursing Mother]

Hey welcome deardee, you happen to have a very intelligent son! I hope you both stick around!

[Dan Frank]

Barbara, The male perspective of a teenage girl engaging in explicit talk, on average, might differ... I don't really know, and am reluctant to guess (since I know a lot of dads who would definitely take NM's side on this, and my sister and mother are both one of the reasons I have the opinions on this that I do.

Except for perhaps a rare few, any sexual experience involving more than yourself requires a great deal of emotional investment.

However, I know some teenage girls who would not agree with the idea that, especially when via the internet, sexual exploration is necessarily something that they will remain invested in for a long period of time. That is, to some girls I know, sexual exploration does not = important relationship.

By the same token, some guys I know (myself included) feel that sexual exploration, even over the internet, is an important undertaking not to be approached lightly. I don't think having cybersex will solve any of my problems or make me a happier person, and I think it could hurt me in some way down the road. So I don't do it.

But I am not so arrogant as to think that just because something isn't right for me , it must not be right for anyone else, either. I trust that my friends who do engage in it know what they are doing and do so because they want to.

Autumn Moonfire, Just how did I represent myself? I never claimed to be a parent. My age and identity was initially not in question... when it was, I responded by identifying myself.

Perhaps it's just that I didn't say: "Well, I'm just a sex-starved 16 year old who thinks every girl should be free to be as promiscuous as she wants, and you don't actually need to read my reasons for thinking this, you can just immediately jump to the obvious conclusion and ignore me."

What was my assumed persona and how did I happen to assume it? THe registration form for this site is for those over 13 ... thus I could very well have been even younger, and it should not have raised any eyebrows.

I never said a teenage girl could take the necessary steps to prevent rape if she was already in that situation (indeed, as the stats show, many women fail to as well... one would imagine it to be a very difficult situation, no?). I said that a teen could (and would, in my experience) take steps before she met said rapist. I believe it was Snow who offered the possibility of cracker-rapists (that is, illegal hackers, not racist southerners), which is certainly a possibility. But, barring that, only the extremely naive would do such a thing. And information is a surer cure for naivete than the elimination of a dangerous, intensely useful blessing such as the internet.

Additionally, one CAN be completely sure of the identities in a chatroom, as I have previously said. And, in AIM sessions and private ircle channels, the only lurkers would have to be exceptional crackers to boot.

Yes people can lie with statistics. I got my rape statistics from the Department of Justice, so you may take any errors up with them. The car stats, which were obviously only important for my sarcastic comments, came from the homepage of NHTSA, an organization who's full name escapes me. Try looking up NHTSA on google, and you should find it. It took my forever to actually find percentage and number charts, so I simply leaped upon the first one I found.

Hi mom.

PS: I have yet to have someone relate a personal experience of encountering a pervert through chatrooms. Not a class about net perverts, but an actual encounter. Perhaps they aren't as prevalent as people would have us believe...

[barbara]

Deardee and Dan, Welcome! It is refreshing to have a young person's views brought to this forum that is mostly mamas. We can get a little one-sided here. I often share with my daughters some of the posts to get their perspective and they have found this one to be especailly interesting since it is relavant to their lives.
My now married daughter did have some experience in this area and she felt it was harmful to her in the long run. She also felt that engaging in this with people you know is worse because it doesn't end when you leave the computer. Perhaps some girls can walk away from this kind of experimentation and leave it at that, she couldn't. I attribute that to her moral and ethicical convictions. My teenage dd said "If you're going to have sex have real sex!" Now I know that her moral conviction is not to engage in this type of thing but peer pressure and couriousity can be very persuasive. Therefore, we help her resist by keeping the computer in the main part of the house. That said, I would ultimately agree with you Deardee when you say:
When children of all ages are not with their parents they try out all kinds of behavior and generally break the rules. The time that we can have the illusion of controlling their behavior is all too brief. They will be alone in many potentially dangerous situations. We can not always be with them. I have tried to give my children a framework of ethics based on compassion and caring that they can take with them. I have felt that this is more important than conventional morality or rote obedience to social mores. For me, a test was if my children acted the same way with people when they were aware of my presence as when they thought no adults were watching them.
My son-in-law was raised by parents that did not feel this way, and kept tight reign on their children. He and all his brothers and sisters learned to be very sneaky, and acted much differently around their parents. He hopes for something different for his son.
Often people will live up to the expectations that others have of them. Maybe if we treat our teenages as if they are capable of making good moral and ethical choices they will.

[AutumnMoonfire]

When I first looked at your profile you said your age was 43. That is a misrepresentation. A 43 year old male arguing that teen girls should be allowed to engage in cybersex is very suspicious. Especially one without a job.

I understand that you often feel disrespected because of your age. In this one case your assumed persona combined with your argument made you look pretty bad. If you choose to do this in the future be aware that this is one of the more benign things that can happen when you assume a persona.

Now, Teen girls can explore their sexuality in many ways that do not expose them to other people. They can read sexually explicit romance novels, they can write erotica in their journals, they can sneak peeks at blueboy mags and Playgirl. There are many women written erotica websites. All of these do not involve public exposure of a teen's explorations. It's also how many 30+ year old women like me explored these issues as teens. All my parents ever said was that these books did not potray a healthy relationship between men and women. They knew it wasn't harmful for me to read them...

As far as not having personal knowledge of these cases...Murder happens yet I have not known anyone personally who has met such an end. I am 35.

A girl in NH was killed by a stalker who she barely knew from highschool. It does happen. If a mother knows this stuff and does not protect her children as best she can she will not be able to sleep at night. There are far safer ways to explore sexualty then chat rooms.

[Nursing Mother]

Something is still strange here. I hate to be a party pooper, but....:scratch

[AutumnMoonfire]

Yeah NM I agree, it is strange. Teen or adult Dan just does not add up... You are not a party pooper, you are a careful mom.

And I loved the Smiley!

:hippie

[Dan Frank]

Barbara, I'd like to thank you for your input. I believe in my previous posts I have said that I know girls who are similar to your daughter (who either couldn't walk away or didn't want to try it at all). As I said, I also know guys who feel the same way. I, personally, subscribe to much the same theory your daughter now holds... that is, "If you're going to have sex have real sex!"... I have never had cybersex, and doubt I ever will. But my post was not about my own personal convictions.

I think that your statement about it being relative to ones personal ethical convictions is dead-on, but the way you phrased it (no offense) leads me to believe you think such a stance is the only 'right' moral stance to take. here, perhaps, we disagree. I think that, when it comes to matters such as this, there is a very wide range of what should be considered 'acceptable' moral beliefs. I would not dispute one who wished to wait until marriage before any form of sexual experience, nor would I dispute someone who enjoyed consensual one-night-stands. Personally, I find both views horrendously wrong, but I think each person has the right to make that decision for themselves.

I am aware of peer pressure, although, honestly, none of my friends are much for their peer's opinion... I doubt any of them, male or female, do it because they feel pressured to do so. Certainly none admit to it, but then, as they are my peers, perhaps they are just denying it to seem 'cool'.


The personal attacks get a bit tiresome, AutumnMoonfire, but I will address what you have said because I believe it requires addressing.

I am perplexed as to how I listed my age as 43 when I can't seem to find the spot for "Age". I see a bunch of stuff about AIM and ICQ handles, i see biography, website, location, and job. I filled it all out initially, in an ambiguous and humorous (to me, anyway) way. (my home city is El Sobrante... which translates into The Leftovers. Technically, it relates to land grants, but it's still amusing).

I have not changed anything on my profile since I registered. I would rather not tell someone what they saw... but you are mistaken.

As I said, I don't consider "Student" a job until you start getting paid for it. Right now, I'm still in the You-Pay-Us-So-We-Can-Make-You-Conform section of school.

Again, I did not assume a persona. You assumed a persona for me. There is a distinct difference.

Why is exploring one's sexuality in a way that involves someone else a bad thing? Why do you assume that cybersex is automatically, or even usually, harmful? Barbara has given me an example of a situation in which it was. I can, if truly necessary, get a couple of my friends and/or acquaintances to post differing views. (Of course, they could be guys. But then, so could Barbara ;))

Yes, people get murdered all the time. People die all sorts of ways, all sorts of times. Most of these ways are activities you would not dream of "forbidding" a teen from doing (Walking down the street, taking a bus, etc). My point, which you seem to not want to comprehend, is that such activities are not much different from chat rooms, except in chat rooms, the chance of actual danger is lower. I'm not saying the danger isn't there. I'm saying it isn't as big as some make it, and that there are a multitude of POSITIVE aspects to boot. I'm saying that, if a teen wants to go to a chat room, the risks are worth it, the same way the risk is worth "letting" them go down the street to see a movie.

Okay, a girl was killed by someone in highschool. That happens. What does that have to do with the internet? Or are you saying you should force your child to homeschool, because Highschools are too dangerous?

Unsure what you mean, NM, please elaborate.

And I already commented on the personal attacks, AutumnMoonfire.

[Chanley]

Dan,

In my years online and in chats, I have met a handful of young boys who had the intelligence and forethought that you have shown in this thread.

Thank you for taking the time to do this, I am enjoying it immensely. I can imagine that you have a wonderful house in which your family is close enough to discuss all of these matters. I am in agreement with you on this one.

I have a daughter and I dont for one second believe I can stop her from "talking dirty" when she is old enough to understand what that is. My own parents would die if they knew what I knew when I did. I just do what I can to arm my daughter with the tools to make the best decisions about her behavior.

BTW, NM you handled this well.

[Nursing Mother]

Thanks Chanley.

Hi Dan, elaborate on what? The fact I feel a little suspicious of you. Thats just my nature sorry. I have teens myself, and they just don't talk, write, use terminology like you do. I'm not saying a teen can't, its just I guess I've never been around one. I just have these darn, female, intutition vibes giving me a red flag here. But hey, I've been known to be wrong
:rolleyes:

[Dan Frank]

Thank you Chanley, I too am enjoying this (hey, otherwise I wouldn't be here). And I definitely attribute my views to my family and my upbringing.

Nursing Mother, if it makes you feel any better, I don't always actually speak in the way that I have been speaking here. I can slur and slang and be confusingly and annoyingly teenager with, well, not the best of em, but with some pretty unintelligible guys. I can also carry on intelligent conversations (Gasp) with 'adults'. I attribute my multi-dialectual knowledge to the combined effects of 1) public school, 2) homeschool, and 3) college.

I also have multiple speech modes while online. I consider myself a master of good old fashioned netspeak (not to be confused with l33t, in which I only dabble on rare occasions). As I said in those parens, I also dabble in the very confusing, generally just stupid, but often funny as hell form of typed speech called 'l33t'. And, like in my spoken vocabulary, when necessary I can speak clearly, concisely, and with little or no errors (I am well aware Dialectual is not a word). I generally reserve this last, very boring, mode of communication for when debating a point, such as I have been doing. If one were to ever find me in a chat room, I would be nearly unrecognizable.

As for intuitions... well, first of all, always have taken exception to the concept that intuition and instinct is reserved for females alone. I equate it to the postulation that women have smaller brains than men... once accepted theory (Proposed by Aristotle), but now obviously prejudiced hogwash.

I have seen at least one seemingly-legitimate study, published in the San Fransisco Chronicle a few years ago, which gave contrary evidence. It stated that, while it is widely believed, even by men, that intuition is a woman's domain (or at least mostly so), all evidence points to such equality as to make any difference inconsequential, and particular to that case's of subjects.


Besides this, I have always considered the emphasis some people place on intuition (my mother, for one) to be somewhat misplaced. I am not saying Intuition, or Instinct, does not exist... only that I believe it is not a substitute for rational thought and reasoning.

This belief was recently (on these boards, in fact) fueled, when I saw a woman worried about her husband. She confronted him, and resolved the issue. Then, several women posted and told her that her "gut" had first told her that her worries were sound, and that, despite all the statistics posted by other, saner moms, and despite the fact that she had spoken with her husband on the matter, she should "go with her gut".

I find such a suggestion horrendous, but I have promised myself to save the bulk of my argument in favor using reason and intuition for a new thread. If you are at all interested, it should appear in the Parenting Issues forum some time between now and the time I die.

(I don't have a snappy ending for this one.)

[lilyka]

If they were to do this with their friends in the privicy of their own bedrooms, would the objectors on this thread object.

I'll fess up (as if I have to) that yes I would be uncofortable with that to because I feel sharing those kinds of secrets even with people whose face you can see is still risky because you don't know if you can trust them to keep such juicy information a secret and before you know it it is all around school and some little teen preditor (not all predetors are middle aged men. some are 16 year old local celebreties that every body loves and nobody would ever suspect) has it in his mind that suzie likes it rough and poor suzie's fantacy turns into her worst nightmare. . . Sorry, I just think teenage sexual fantacies that dance through your mind should stay there. They are much better there where noone can stomp on them anyay.

Dan-
You are so obviously a teenager that I need not question te truth of that statement.

Even private chat rooms can be hacked by someone with moderate computer skills. Nothing you write on the computer or even paper is ever completely safe.

I hate to burst your bubble but untill you have been a parent you really have no idea what is is like. And this may sound sexest but no man will ever have the priveledge or heart ache of being a mother and will therefore never fully understand the reasons why a mother acts and feels as she does. some things defy word or expression. Not even if you spend a lot of time with neices and nephews or talking about parenting theories with people who have been there. I really thought I knew when I was a kid how I would parent and what I would do. (I also had perfect , even tempered, gentle, agreeable children in these fantisies) I also thought I had the mysteries of the universe figured out, that any idiot could balance a checkbook consistantly, marraige would be apiece of cake, life would be rosy and I would be happy in the suburbs (hence forth refered to as ticky tacky hell :) I was wrong on all accounts. I love my children more than I thought possible, I protect them more fiercly than I ever thought i would and I really do know a million more things about life than they do and a million more than I did at 16.

I work with teens on a regular basis and I have seen first hand the dangers of lack of parental involvement and know that a little bit of over protection is a lot more healthy for everyone. I also know that I dare not tell a parent of a teenager how to do thier job because I have never been in thier shoes. I have 10 more years of living with Madz before I can truely understand where Nursing Mother is. So until then I will encourage her in her decisions knowing that she ultimately knows what is best for her dd and is full of wisdom that I can only pray for and is truely doing what is best for her child (and ultimately what I hope I would have the courage to do).

I watch the kids I work with run headlong into catastrophy (even after they have had the consequencesmade very clear to them) and am helpless, most often, to stop them. I cringe for thir pain but offer little sympathy. Any idiot can pretend they have all the answers but a truely intellegent person will seek the counsel of the wise.


I hope you don't feel I have been to harsh on you but I did want you to understand 3 things. I case I have been to wordy I will clarify:

1) parents do know a lot more than thier children even if the expression of it comes out irrational or wrong.

2)Since you misrepresented yourself, it will take a while for us to trust you. Even when we do trust you you opinions and theories are just that. Opinions and theories of someone one with no experiance so don't be dissapointed if no one gives weight to your words.

3)You have a lot to learn before you can understand what it is like on your parents side of the fence. If nothing else perhaps we can help you see the world through your parents eyesa little better and give you some understanding as to why they act and react the way they do.

Peace,
Sandra

[FatherDove]

Funny story: I was in the Dads forums reading and replying when I noticed Dan was also online. I clicked his name, read his information, saw this was the last thread he posted to, and (thinking the topic sounded interesting) I clicked through to this conversation. My wife was reading along with me (she is MotherDove (http://mothering.com/discussions/member.php?s=&action=getinfo&userid=1801), btw) and I commented that I don't usually read all of these long threads and therefore don't reply. So I began casually pressing the Page Down key reading a few words here and there to get the gist. That's when it got interesting.

Before I go to far (or before you reply) please find out about me (http://www.adeler.com/family/sawyer/davidjr.asp) and read some of my previous posts (http://mothering.com/discussions/search.php?s=&action=showresults&searchid=41982), if you have the time.

I am only going to address one person (http://mothering.com/discussions/member.php?s=&action=getinfo&userid=231) directly and only because I have a humorous feeling to share.Something is still strange here.I think I found out what it is NM. When I clicked the reply button I felt like an out-of-work actor who just got a small roll in the hottest soap-opera on television! :rotflmao

I am about to display my opinion for everyone to read in regards to this very sensitive subject. An opinion to which some of you will disagree, some of you will agree, and some of you will wonder if I am ever going to make my point. And that is fine. Hence: my opinion.

Oh, one more thing, this has been one of the most amusing and well discussed threads I have seen in my ten years of Internet life. :thumb

I believe the teens of today are largely and unjustly underestimated. There is also my realization that some people (no, not just teenagers) are naïve and easily influenced while others are cruel and deceptive and still others intelligent and compassionate. Our non-communicative, fast food, me-me-me society has reduced us to human replicates of stereotypical boys, girls, mothers, fathers, Americans, and on, and on. I value free speech, freedom of religion, and the freedom to choose — no matter what the choice. Family is THE most important and influential thing in any persons life. Privacy should remain private. And, sadly, I am not always right.

I believe that teenagers can have great depth of feeling and emotion and those feelings are often translated into sexual desire/drive/curiosity/whatever. This is natural. I think they call it ... what is that word ... oh yes, puberty. This extremely confusing and frustrating period can start as early as 7 or 8 years old in some girls and usually starts between 10 and 15 years for those budding on-time. [Encyclopedia.com (http://www.encyclopedia.com/html/p/puberty.asp)]

Are these feelings and emotions love? Is that really the parents' decision? Teenagers are certainly not the wisest people riding the globe around the sun. Neither is a 28 year old father of a beautiful 9½ month daughter (http://www.adeler.com/family/sawyer/verona.asp). Neither is a 48 year old mother of five. We are never as wise as we will be and there never will be a wisest. I think most of us agree that experience comes with age and is gained through — you guessed it — experiences. These experiences warrant a decision of some sort that will ultimately decide/influence the result of said experience.

This is where it gets tricky. Who is responsible for making that decision? The person involved directly with the situation (i.e. child) or a third party observer who is looking after your best interest (i.e. parent)? I believe there is an old saying that goes something like this: "Learn from your mistakes." Hmm. Your mistakes. Interesting.

I for one learned most of what I know today from the mistakes of others. It's just safer that way. But there were still plenty of mistakes of my own to make. They weren't new mistakes, just new to me. But that is for an entirely different thread [sigh].

I just can't help continued reflection upon that phrase: "learn from your mistakes." It insinuates that we will make mistakes. Almost dooming us to unknown misfortune regardless of our actions or the warnings of others. There more I think about it the more anxiety builds inside of me: "will I know when I make a mistake? will I be able to find the lesson? can anyone really help me?"

My point here is that the conotations of this phrase are woven into our very psyche. There have been times in each of our lives where we have been forced with a difficult decision, made that decision, and lived with the consequences. Without knowing if it was the right thing to do. It's what we do — we're human. The finality of it is that only we, the individual, could make that decision. It was our decision to make and we were the only person qualified to make it.

Our decisions, though, are based largely on the ideals of others. Taken from things we have heard, read, experienced through others, watched, or otherwise witnessed. These teachings from others are the cornerstone of any persons mental foundation and the stimuli for growth. It is those with a sturdy foundation and strong mind that will learn from mistakes — theirs, yours, and mine.

This is where we as parents enter the equation. It is our responsibility to communicate with our children. Constantly challenging their ideals and soliciting their opinions. Continually sharing with them the joys and sorrows of life, the dangers and pleasures of sex, the ideas and arguments of philosophy, the chaos and order of poetry, the left side and the right side and everything in between.

In my most personal opinion, that is the responsibility of the parent: to educate and communicate. If you are confident in your parenting and your relationship with your child, is there really a reason to think they would make the wrong decision? If you are not confident in your parenting and relationship with your child, I fear you have more to worry about then sex talk amongst Internet acquaintances.

Nursing Mother, did you ask your dd why she was participating in that chat? Or whom she was chatting with and how she met them? Or what pleasure does she get from this activity? How often was she participating? And (I do think Dan's question is valid) through which medium was she participating (i.e. ICQ, AIM, MSN, Yahoo!, IRC, public chat room, etc.)?

I have lived on the Internet for the past ten years. And there are a large number of sickos, whackos, crazies, pedophiles, [...insert ommitted adjective...] out there. But you also have to remember that there are also TENS of MILLIONS of other truly good people out there participating in safe, public forums.

Very much like the wonderful community in which you are participating now.

:love

[Dan Frank]

Hooha! A big post! I like big posts (hugs the big post).
(edit: er, Lilyka's big post, not FatherDoves... though I suppose I should hug it too, so as not to be accused of favoritism ;))
ahem. (assumes proper posting decorum)

Alright, first of all, someone please , please , PLEASE enlighten me as to how I misrepresented myself. No one here, except Alexander, who said he was nearly 40, and AutumnMoonfire, who said she was 35, has listed their age in these posts. In another, previous post on the Dads board... I said I have no children. As I said before... is there some rule I'm unaware of that requires me to inform you all if I may be of an age you consider it acceptable to descriminate against?

There is a difference between a sexual fantasy and any, even virtual, form of sexual interaction. I agree that fantasy should stay private. Sexual interaction, on the other hand, which can draw from fantasy, is not the same thing and, in my opinion, acceptable.

Alright Lilyka, just so we're clear, you do realize that whatever valid argument you had is a bit drowned by all the ad hominem you've decided to throw in, right? As much as I will try not to, I think my own rebuttal will have a bit of the same. I apologize in advance, but will chant the age old refrain of "You started it!" if necessary.

While I thank you for believing me, I suspect your motives behind such a statement were more intended to belittle me than to support me. As I have said, personally, 'dirty talk' doesn't much interest me... the opportunity has presented itself, and I have declined. I would much prefer to try out the real thing. But this is really quite unrelated... again, just an ad hominem.

I do not think Nursing Mother to be a bad person, or a bad mother. I believe she may have made a bad choice... When I become a parent, I will no doubt do the same. I don't think I'm 'judging', and if I am, then the verdict certainly isn't too harsh. I spend time in here debating with parents because I plan on being one someday, and because I spend a lot of time online anyway.

Did you intentionally use Weary as if it were Wary, to indicate annoyance with my presence? If so, ignoring me is a surer way to get rid of me than trying to shut me down with insults.

Even stepping into the shower can get you killed. Nothing you do anywhere is completely safe. A parents responsibility is not to keep the kid away from showers, but rather to look inside for soap first, and, for situations where the parent can't, to keep the child informed about soap so they know to look for themselves.

I dont need to know what being a parent is like. I know I'll be a parent like my parents and friends and family, and I know that they aren't at all similar to you. Everyone parents differently. I'm not just disagreeing because im not a parent, I'm disagreeing for the same reason EVERYONE disagrees... because I think that I am right.

Being a woman does not entitle you to emotionally cripple your kid just because you're scared of internet boogymen (no, NM, this is not aimed at you). hey, not to sound sexist, but no woman will ever be hit in the testicles (no, I am not saying this is more painful than childbirth. But it's a unique experience). Perhaps it's due to this particular experience that I think you have faulty logic... or maybe it's because you do.

I have no fantasies of childrearing. Frankly, the prospect kind of scares the crap out of me. I've never seen a prfectly behaved child, and if I did I would immediately call the police, because that kid would no doubt be suffering from serious emotional and physical abuse.

Sounds to me like you were a very optimistic child. Did you do a lot of drugs?

If you really do know more than they do, and more than I do, then perhaps, instead of forcing them to do your bidding for their own good, you could TELL them what you know (gasp). That way, by the time they're your age, they'll know twice as much as you do now. THey can do the same, and in a few generations your descendants will be the smartest people on earth.

If my working with kids all the time and spending several days a week watching my nephew, or the fact that I AM a teen and know a lot of them, does not grant me any credibility on the topic of teenagers whatsoever, why on earth would the fact that you happen to work with them grant you any? That, dear lady, is a double standard.

I have never been a waiter, but I still criticize them when they screw up my order or spill soup in my lap. I have never run the country, but I still think Bush is a freakin moron.

(my apologies to Nursing Mother for using her, but I am carrying on Lilyka's example. I do not mean any insult.)
So NM is automatically full of wisdom because she is a mother? What about those parents who werent involved? Were they right, too, just because they procreated? What about a mother who beats her kids with a steel rod when they talk back to her? Is she also full of wisdom? Obviously, some forms of parenting are damaging. I maintain that denying a child access to a useful tool is damaging (obviously not as much so as the above... but you get the idea). Overprotection may be more healthy than ignoring a kid, but can anyone guess what is more healthy than Overprotection AND Underprotection? I'll give you a hint... it's the suffixed word.

No one but Barbara has presented any actual evidence that 'dirty talk' is harmful, and I doubt even she would classify it as catastrophic.

Why don't you offer sympathy?

So now I'm an Idiot, eh? I think I can contain my retort, and just let that blatant insult stand on its own, if it can.

Now, because my post, too, was long, and because I, too, want to act as though an obviously literate person is a buffoon who needs a list to understand things...

1) Being a parent does not automatically make one correct, or else fathers who rape their children are A-OK.

2) I did not misrepresent myself. THe only possible explanations I have found are a) I registered on April Third, 04-03, which could perhaps appear to be 43 to someone who was reeeeally skimming. b) Alexander, another male who supports teenage girls talking dirty, said that he was nearly 40. Either way, only poor observational skills could misrepresent me in either case.

3) If they thought I was too stupid to buy them myself, my parents would have bought me condoms a year or two ago, just in case. My dad would prefer it if I stayed away from drugs and alcohol because of his bad experiences with both, my mom just wants me to expiriment with someone who will be able to call an ambulance in an emergency, and my brother wants me to wait till I'm 18 before I smoke pot because he is convinced it stunts one's growth. (he waited and is 6'3"... his friends all started very young, and are in the 4'10"-5'8" range). I know pretty well why they act the way they do... they tell me. I only rarely suffer from the "Oh (wail), my mom is so wacked! She won't let me go chill with my peeps, yo!" teenage affliction.

Lilyka, perhaps next time you wish to discuss something with me, you could refrain from the insults and just make your points.'

Edited for additional clarity (thanks Alexander... posted this around 2 AM, so I was bound to make mistakes)

[Dan Frank]

Fatherdove... I will take bets that more of these mom's agree with what you've said, even though we agree. (curses his lack of eloquence)

(sighs)

Anyway, I actually wanted to post to apologize to Nursing Mother. I still think she made a bad move in banning her kids from chatrooms, but my posts have gone a bit beyond that, and I just want to say again that I do not think you are a horrible parent (not that the opinion of an anonymous teenager would much impact your life... but still), just that I disagree with you on this one. My posts have, for the most part, not been directed at you, but to everyone here or the specific people I named.

Now then... let's see what tomorrow holds, eh?

[Alexander]

FatherDove,

Brill!

The only thing I would add to our role as parents is that we should allow (help?) our children to fail non-catastrophically, but shield them from the errors that they can not recover from.

Unfortunately, this is were I think parents draw the line much to close to "my baby can't handle this", instead of "I am here when it goes wrong".

I think this is very likely because parents feel themselves not able to deal with or cope with the problems.

The "sealing the lid by banning" method of parenting smacks of re-lived insecurities of a parents' own teenage years.

Lilyka, you said:

yes I would be uncofortable with that to because I feel sharing those kinds of secrets even with people whose face you can see is still risky because you don't know if you can trust them to keep such juicy information a secret and before you know it it is all around school and some little teen preditor

I don't know what to say! If there are predetures around, now is the best time to learn to deal with them while they are under your protection. Leave it till after they leave home, what tools do they have?

Also, friends end to share without spilling the beans. No? Then learning who your friend's are is a priceless lesson at this age.

a

[Alexander]

Originally posted by Dan Frank
Hooha! A big post! I like big posts (hugs the big post).
Snip
That way, by the time they're your age, they'll know twice as much as you do now. THey can do the same, and in a few generations your ancestors will be the smartest people on earth.


Yuk, such long posts (though I know mine are too sometimes!). Let's to rant less, speak more.

BTW, the word you are looking for here is not ancestors, but decendents. (If you decide to edit your post, I'll willingly remove this comment.)

Generally though, an articulate (and, for me anyway) amusing post, hitting points squarely on the head. You could be Sudbury Model Child (http://www.sudval.org/books.html). FatherDove too, by the sounds of his post lean in this direction of empowering the child through experience and education.

a

PS [Uncle tone] could we try to scale down the "ranty tone" rather than escalate it. Let's get on with the debate.

[/Uncle tone] ;)

a

[Dan Frank]

Thank you, Alexander, your posts are short, to the point, and always make me smile. :)

Even though I like you, I think I'm going to have to continue to use you as a scapegoat, because everyone seems to think I claimed to be a middle aged man... only thing I found remotely of that sort was when you said you were nearly 40! Obviously, since the two of us are so similar (y'know, or writing styl... oh wait, no. Well, the lengths of our p.... oh wait, no... well, our names sure look sim... oh... huh... um... oooh, we're both MEN! Well, no wonder they confused the two of us, we're practically identical!), they mistook you for me.

Those of you who suspect this post was nothing but another ploy to up my posts ... you are correct. I came very close to adding a less-than-productive remark about the post-levels of some of my detractors, and the fact that, despite their low posts, they aren't second-guessed and insulted every 10 minutes. But I restrained myself. Then, obviously, I decided to go ahead and present the remark in a slightly less insulting, impersonal manner.

Ain't I devious?

[Alexander]

Since you're on, why don't you read your PM?

a

[Alexander]

LOL

Stop that! I'm ill. laughing hurts!

As for upping the posts....

Yes, you are a nit. You should have written the post and let people think about the parts, reply, you rely (with additional material), etc...

Much more....civilized ?

At any rate, this technique prevents 2 things.

1) people hitting their heads on a concrete wall post.

2) prevents the thread from freying.

Hope this helps

a

(read your PM yet?)

off to cuddle the kids to sleep. B back later

[Els' 3 Ones]

OK, boys, time for another female pov.

First of all, what exactly is NM's dd going to suffer from by not "chatting"? Not many of us grew up with that. I daresay millions of children today are not chatting, right? I do agree with many of the parenting models you all are tossing around but fail to see how this applies to taking away a chat room. We are not talking about taking away the www and all the wonderful info available. And there are other forms of communication.

Also, read again what NM said they discussed. First off, Dan, it was verbalizing fantasies and not actual cybersex. It also involved beastiality and such. I don't think a 15 yo is prepared to discuss or fantasize about the aberrations of sex........especially in a chat room.

So, again, I'm asking "how is taking away the chat going to ruin this teens life"?

[Nursing Mother]

Holy moly, I woke up at 6:00 to this! I love it BTW. Had no idea this thread would progress.

FatherDove, I am glad you are enjoying this "soap opera";) First you aged me about 7 years, ouch! I am 41

.Nursing Mother, did you ask your dd why she was participating in that chat? Or whom she was chatting with and how she met them? Or what pleasure does she get from this activity? How often was she participating? And (I do think Dan's question is valid) through which medium was she participating (i.e. ICQ, AIM, MSN, Yahoo!, IRC, public chat room, etc.)?

Of course I asked her, yes I was aware of who she was chatting with but didn't know them personally. (kids from school)
I am sure it was quite pleasurable. She did it TWICE. I believe it was a public chat room.

It really isn't that big a deal now. We talked with her, she understands the rules. No anger, shes not mad etc. Thats why I'm getting such a kick out of this discussion, for me its been over, but I just love what everyone is saying whether I agree or not.

Dan, Being a woman does not entitle you to emotionally cripple your kid just because you're scared of internet boogymen

Emotionally cripple! Give me a break. What about all of us who never had chat? I believe kids want boundries, rules, etc. You are not crippling your child if you say no to something, or make a rule. Dan you just keep being yourself, you're a smart guy, but lack abit of adult and parental "wisdom". Don't worry though that will come and only come with TIME.

Lilyka, thank you so much for your insight.

Alex, you crack me up. (In a good way of course):)

Chanley, many blessings to you, we are on the same track here. From one mother to another:2.

[Alexander]

Originally posted by Nursing Mother

Dan,
you're a smart guy, but lack abit of adult and parental "wisdom". Don't worry though that will come and only come with TIME.


Er, this comes off as really condesending, and just what we don't want.

Even if you feel this way, you don't have to, in a public forum, belittle someone by pointing out their age, rather than what they say.

So please, everybody, don't slip.

a

[Celestial]

Wow!

I've been following this thread for some time now.

The only thing I have to add is that sometimes, we as parents set up our children for a fall. It's called a self fullfilling prophecy. In my experience, as a child and a parent, these self fullfilling prophecies come about when we are ABSOLUTELY CONVINCED that if our child does "x", "y" is the inevitable result. We tell our children this. We reinforce this notion through conversations with other adults that our children over hear, and through our actions. In essence, we turn OUR fear into our children's reality. They see no other possible outcome than the one we are so afraid of! I'm not saying this is always the case, but that often, we limit the potential positive outcomes of an experience by focusing on the one negative outcome we fear.

We can also void whatever lessons could be learned from an action because we say "I told you so." or "I knew this would happen!".

Does this make any sense?

I've screwed up some things, trying to avoid the outcomes I'm afraid of. My oldest is 9. I want to parent differently than my mom did. And I do, but it has come with it's own, different set of mistakes. And hopefully, in the end, as my children grow, they'll be able to understand my shortcomings, learn from them, grow from them, and move on.

[Nursing Mother]

Alex, that is not condecending at all IMO, sorry. I have already said I am impressed with Dan and his adult use of terminology,(and he sure spells better then me, or has a great spell-check), but that does not create "wisdom". Wisdom comes only through growth, experience and time. A 16 year old just hasn't had a lot of time yet to develope it IMO. Not saying a 16 year old can't be smart or intellectual and have great opinions. I respect what he says, but I don't see a lot of "wisdom" in his thoughts concerning this situation.

Hey, no offence Dan, really!;)

Until you have lived life and experienced the reality of children, I feel it would be hard for anyone to be truly objective in this situation.

[dharma]

My parents were the epitome of the self fulfilling prophecy people.

Here are some of the standard things I heard:

History always repeats itself.

Mastubation is disgusting.

Never touch yourself.

Sex is a misadventure

yadda yadda yadda

In our family sex was off limits. It was not discussed, as a teen if I stepped over a sexual line so to speak, I was punished and shamed (not at all suggesting that is what NM did) and guess what ladies..........I was pregnant at 17!

Had my parents been open about sex in a healthy and non judgemental way, had they supplied me with knowledge rather than their own internal fear, I wouldn't have been. Had they not shared every mistake I made with the general public, maybe I wouldn't have been as rebellious.

I have step daughters and daughters and sons (as well as my self for a guide) and do not fool yourselves in to thinking that 15 is a bit young. It is dead on for most of the womyn and girls I know. My youngest step daughter was very sheltered and my husband and his x wife, talked with her about sex and such but she was not allowed to experiment with her sexual self at all and she went CRAZY with sex at the age of 16-17. She is 20 now and sees the reasons why she was this way. Not because she had a healthy sexual appetite, but because sex was the forbidden fruit.

I agree with Dan and I think it is refreshing to hear a teenager's opinion on this as isn't it teenagers we are trying to figure out?

I am a Mother, I am 29 and I am not in the majority here but those are my thoughts. When my daughters are older I will not ever suggest that they should save themselves for marriage as I think I would be setting myself up for disappointment and as much as I love my husband I can't imagine that being my only experience with sex.

With that said each of us has to do what we think is right for our children, however I do not think we should dismiss Dan just for being a teen. He may be able to provide us with some honest insight that we wouldn't normally have.

[barbara]

Kudos FatherDove and Alexander!
Celestial, You are right on with your self-fullfilling prophecy theory. As parents of small children, as well as teenagers and adult children, we will do well to remember to treat them as the people we know they are/can be. They will live up to it!!! (or down to it as the case may be!)

Now, about online chat.
My sons (both over 18 now) spent some time on AIM and in chatrooms. They found them lacking and time consuming. Both choose to discontinue on thier own and spend their time more constructively. We knew nothing about the internet at that time and so never gave them any imput ourselves except to say things like "don't you have something better to do?" They came to their own conclusions about it because they have good dicission making skills and have learned to question and evaluate things for themselves.
My son-in-law, on the other hand, had some real problems in this area, (i.e. obssesive behavior, etc.) His brothers and sisters still do. Their parents making decisions for them has made them sneaky and even more obsessive about internet relationships, as well as real life ones. Ok, maybe they are an unhealthy and extream example, but it has shown us how not allowing children to make their own decisions creates rebellious and unhealthy behavior.... and adults that are decision-making crippled!

My point is that we need to educate ourselves and our children and allow them to make their mistakes and learn from them. I say this having also experienced a teenage daughter who made some really bad mistakes dispite our guidance. We all still feel that we could not have protected her any more than we did from those mistakes. Perhaps by making them at a young age she will have truely learned from them and not spend a lifetime of repeating the same mistakes over and over as so many people do. I don't know.....I don't have any answers. This parenting thing is hard! I just wanted to share my experience.

(BTW, NM this is not directed in anyway at you. I think you did the right thing for your family and it sounds like you have a wonderful relationship with your daughter!)

[Nursing Mother]

I agree, and no one is dismissing Dan. Just the words "emotionally crippling" because you don't allow chat, to me sounds immature. There is just so much out there in the world to discover through books, literature, types of media, that a teen does NOT need chat, and it is certainly is not emotionally crippling to go without.

BTW, dharma, I was also raised a bit like you, not quite so severe though. I never ended up pregnant, but did determine with my own children I would be open, honest, and "real" about sexuality issues. Both dh and I have made good on this. My kids know more about sexuality then most. But they know the truth about it, not the myths and jokes that a lot of my teens hear at school. They know facts, morals, rights and wrongs, they know what we as parents expect of them concerning sexual issues. No topic is off limits in our house. So if some of you think I seem to be a repressed, naive, sexually unaware person, that is not true. We have talked about masturbation, oral sex, teen-age sex, birth-control, aids, STD's, homosexuality, pregnancy, sex and drugs, marital sex, biological sex, abortion, pornography, internet porn, addictions, you name it, we've discussed it. So I come back to the conclusion, that my children are not being crippled in any way by not learning and exploring "sexual issues" on chat-lines.

They are allowed to talk on the phone as much as they want, hang-out with their friends (ds didn't get home until 1:00 last night, but thats another story:)).They both( my older kids) have healthy social lives, but I will not be naive and ignorant enough to not realize the perversion and temptation that is put upon our teens at a young age in this overly sexual culture of ours. Not to mention the mixed messages the media and culture gives our kids.(which btw are different with girls then with boys) Our culture expects different roles (sexually) from our girls, then boys, again, probably another topic.

[Els' 3 Ones]

I think this subject keeps getting way off track........

I think sex discussion is very healthy and necessary to maturation. What I don't think is healthy is being exposed to all there is by the age of 16. And I don't mean just something different from the missionary position, I mean the hard, explicit, fetish, abberant stuff that is available very easily on the www. I think a "chatroom" can take someone farther than they want to go in a short time.

Conversation irl between a group of friends would be more tempered, don't you think?

I don't write well so maybe I'm not clear.

I don't have a problem with my children (who are still very young) exploring themselves, their sexual identity, as they are ready and irl. I do have a problem with that being done in a public forum on the www including people you don't or barely know irl. And including those people who are purposely misrepresenting themselves.

This thread was not started about what to tell your children about sex, was it? Why does it keep going there? I think NM did a good thing to give parents a heads up to what is going on in chatrooms. I can't believe the number of parents I know irl who choose not to be aware of what porn is available just by surfing. There are definitely things I don't want my children to see until they are of an age. KWIM? Again, I'm not talking about just something outside of the missionary................

[Snow]

ITA
I haven't responded for a while because this whole thread became incredibly derailed. It's not about lack of communication/knowlege, obviously.

[Nursing Mother]

Excellent point Els, I jus