Just found out Dd's talking dirty on chat line...

[Nursing Mother]

My 15 year old was on her chat line last night until 2:00. So this morning I asked to see what she was talking about because i found out 2 boys from school where also on line. Well talk about a wake up call. It read like a porno-script. Dd was not directly involved in the sex talk, but sure stood by and commented now and then. They described sexual encounters, talked about orgasms, oral sex, "all the benefits" Kinky sex, and on and on. Dd was embarrassed ,but she seemed almost happy I found out, and wasn't mad at all about the snooping. I couldn't believe how "knowledgeable" this 15 year olds where about sexual techniques and all. Blew my mind.

Anyway All chat lines are banned in our house. Even my 12 year old son, knew his sister was up to something because she freaked whenever he came by and peered over her shoulder. I can only imagine what goes on when kids have access to computers and chatlines in the bedrooms. I'm talking dirty, nasty stuff. Making propositions and all. It would have been cleaner reading a Playboy magazine.

Thanks for letting me get this off my chest and all I can say is WATCH that chatline and who's on it.

[Elphaba]

so, how do you handle something like this?
clearly, computer usage has to be modified in some way, but what else do you do? did you two sit and talk about how she got to be so sexually informed? or how this chat room got so popular? or why this is inappropriate behavior?
my daughter is only 4 months, so i have a while before this is an issue, but i want to gather as much knowledge from experienced moms as i can!
one thing i have thought of as far as the computer goes is to have the computer located in a central, hihgly trafficked area, so no clandestine activities can take place. whatever you're looking at is on view for everybody. a fascist approach, i'll admit, but it would force us as parents to be aware of how our kids use the internet. (and by us, i mean me and my hubby, not the collective us here online)

[Lindy]

Sounds like she wanted you to catch her and set some limits.
I know my kids like me to make rules for them. I'm not really a rules person, but if they feel more comfortable saying they can't do something because their parents won't let, then I'm willing.

BTW, I was at the library and over heard a conversation among teenage school kids, and you would not believe what they were talking about. Kinky sex. Very dirty, I was shocked! I never even heard of stuff like that when I was a teen.

I think these kids are just trying to act cool. Just my opinion.
We always try to talk to our kids about everything. My kids seem very conservative. At least right now. I hope my kids always feel comfortable talking to me and dh.

[Maribel]

But how do you call up the script? Just curious really. I'd like to check out where my DH's sister chats. She's only 16 w/a 2 year old. We took her in when she was pregnant.

[Nursing Mother]

Well my dh put some sort of a trace on which then proceeded to print out about 15 pages of a two hour converstation she had had with her friends. I didn't know how to do it on my own, so when I got suspicious I asked him how.

Chat lines seem so innocent, but kids can really get addicted to them, and they find them selves saying things I think they normally wouldn't say verbally in front of their friends. That is why they are banned in our house now. We also have a protector on our internet, so we know if any of our kids are going to porn sites. It blocks of the site and sends me an e-mail saying saying someone tried to get into such and such site. Good for Dh also! The temptation is just so great, and with younger kids in the house I just won't have any part in porn coming in. Our world is perverted enough without that garbage coming into my home.

Yes, we did sit and talk about how she learned all this stuff and funny she brought up 17 magazine. (a mainstream popular teen mag.) There was an article on how to "finger" your boyfriend/girlfriend, so you can share "intimacy" without having intercourse. Can you believe it? Teens today know so much technique and sexuality from books, movies, magazine, but know NOTHING about true sexuality and intimacy. I think its pathetic and wrong how are kids are being sexualized so early by the media and such. It is a real rant of mine. And I am a pretty strict mother, My dd has not even seen an R rated movie. I really need to wake up.

[grisandole]

Hi! I just want to relate to everyone what happened to me when I was that exact age, perhaps it will calm you, maybe not?! It's embarrassing to admit, but I did a very similar thing. :blush Back then, we didn't have the internet (11 years ago!), but my friend (female) and I would write long notes to each other that we would pass between classes at school. These notes would contain VERY graphic descriptions of sexual acts that we had with our boyfriends. Of course, neither of us had a real boyfriend, this was pure fiction. But we talked the talk. Also, when I was in junior high, I wrote books that all the kids read, sort of like "Sweet Valley High", but more realistic, with sex stuff......and there was a boy in our school who would draw very pornographic cartoons. Anyway, back to age 15.......my friend and I would write these letters (in a way they were a fiction novel) and we would save them. Well, one day, my mom discovered them in my folder and FLIPPED OUT!!! She pulled me out of school and wouldn't let me speak to my friend again. She and my dad punished me plenty, and didn't understand my "sick fantasies". And my parents were pretty liberal and open about sex stuff. My point is, I was a virgin (had only kissed 1 guy at that point), I didn't watch pornos or perveted movies, and honestly, I don't know HOW I "knew" what I did. Like your daughter, I got most of it from magazines, listening to people talk, tv shows, and books. I think lots of kids talk like that because it's really a safe outlet for sexual feelings. I wasn't ready for sex, but I was fascinated by it, and talking and writing about it was fun.....it felt healthy in a way. I guess I'm not explaining myself well, but back then it never seemed like a big deal, and I wasn't acting out what I was writing about. They were fantasies......and I think it's good for teens to discuss sex. Anyway, I've rambled on enough.....:rolleyes:

[Alexander]

Originally posted by grisandole
I think lots of kids talk like that because it's really a safe outlet for sexual feelings. I wasn't ready for sex, but I was fascinated by it, and talking and writing about it was fun.....it felt healthy in a way.

They were fantasies......and I think it's good for teens to discuss sex.

Absolutly right.

The fastest way to turn this into a sick perversin is to go ballistic and to "talk down" to the kids.

This kind of chit chat is the best way for young adults to let off steam, and discover what's what about their bodies.

It is through this kind of talk that the limits of acceptable behavior is explored, and that young adults learn where and how to say "no".

I would hate to think that we should go back to the "dark fifties" where married couples remained mostly ignorantof the pleasures of sex.

It can't be that long ago that you were a teen. Surely you remember that you too had "hot talk" with your friends?

a

[Nursing Mother]

I would hate to think that we should go back to the "dark fifties" where married couples remained mostly ignorantof the pleasures of sex.

I'm not quite sure what this has to do with the subject.

I realise this is probably just a phase and kids feel quite powerful when they can "talk dirty" so to speak. Most kids can spout off a lot of garbage, and that doesn't mean of course they are experienced in what they say.

What got to me most was the specifc information these kids had about sexual techniques, sodomy, beastiality, male and female anatomy, oral sex, and so on. Yet I really wonder how many know the the importance of a true "sexual relationship". The things of course we are trying to instill in our daughter. I believe what is in the mind comes out of the mouth, so obviously this garbage is in their minds, and I would prefer my dd to be concentrating on her sports, studying and social skills. Of couse some may say this is all part of her learning her social skills. I have 3 younger kids though and will not risk that porn talk in my house.

Thanks Gris. for your input. I believe what you say is true. Kids go through these naughty stages of "experiencing" and thank god it is mostly just talk I know enough about kids that they love to push their parents buttons. When we talked with her we did not let on at all how shocked we really were inside. We just told her this is unacceptable and the chat line is gone. We mentioned the danger of posting her picture (which she did) and the chance of being lured by on-line molesters. A real danger in this day and age.

[Lindy]

Nursing Mother, I think you did exactly the right thing.

[Nursing Mother]

Thanks Lindy, and you have a degree is Psychology right?:p

[Bee]

I definitely think you did the right thing, and handled it really well!

One other thing I wanted to say about the situation....
When our kids are chatting about extreme sexual situations - especially in a chat room where kids tend to be much more "open" than face to face, it can give the other people in the chat room the wrong idea about that kid. Even though the kid may just be "curious" about sex, and using it as an outlet, someone else on that chat room might think they are "in to" those things, and pressure them at school or parties.

I only say that because my 15 year old cousin went into a chat room that included a few guys from her school that she didn't know too well. Basically because of curiousity and the excitement of the situation, she stayed and listened to the convo, adding a few things here and there.
But she regretted it, because the guys that were in that chat room assumed she was interested, and proceeded to harrass her sexually for quite a while, until the authorities were notified.

[Nursing Mother]

Wow, what a lesson learned. And yes I agree with you totally. I have always told my kids to never portray a person they never are. Be real, don't pretend, let people see the true you. I'll mention that to my dd, just another reason to watch your mouth. Others could certainly get the wrong idea. Thanks Bee

[lilyka]

I work with kids in a church setting and am sad to say that these things are not just talk and fantacies but that kids are really doing these things. It is quite disturbing to me and I feel NM did the right thing to step in. My kids were still a little wierded out by how far people would go infront of others and how much they would even confess. They actually seemed comforted when I told them that these things weren't acceptable behavior and not entirely normal (masterbating in class, masturbation races, playing uncle with others genitals, oral sex in the halls between classes etc . . and I have middle schoolers). Magazines like 17 are not IMHO appropriate for teenagers. I would go so far as to consider them soft porn. Movies and magazines keep pushing further and further and everytime someone says "this is perfectly normal" kids feel compelled to live up to that and thus the bar is raised. Sorry I think I have wandered off topic, my point is

Nursing mother you did exactly the right thing. I am sure she appreciates that you care about her and her having a healthy understanding of sex and sexuality.

[Nursing Mother]

Wow, thanks so much Lilyka. Not many really agree with me on many issues, that really means a lot that you did not just say "Oh teens will be teens" etc. There really are some dangerous stuff going on among teens these days, not like when we where teens and joked around about stuff. The drugs available now, and the STD are so so common. It can be a matter of life and death if you take them sexual stuff to far, and often that does include drugs, because it lowers their inhibitation about things. Seventeen magazine is not the magazine it used to be. Y&M is even worse.

I am sure the work you are doing among your church youth is very very important. More teens need supportive, open, spiritual adults like yourself guiding them in the two-faced culture of ours.

[lilyka]

I remember being grossed out by the sexual stuff in 17 when I was a teenager (which was about 10 years ago). It is where I learned most of what I knew about kinky stuff. Well, that and the guys on drumline with me but I knew they were just making stuff up to impress me ;) .

And Nursing Mother, I always agree with you.:love You are my hero and role modle.

[Snow]

Hi! As the mom of a 13 yr old dd, just want to add 2 things

1) You also can't assume that the 14 yr old girl in the chat room w/ your dd is really all that - too often turns out to be a 45 yr old man. There are adults who have posed as adolescents for so long that when the kids see them on line, they feel that they know these "Kids" and will divulge way too much.

2)We have to stay in the room while our kids are online. It's a real hassle - but we really have to do it. You may have a policy against posting pictures (very wise) but when her "14 yr old friend" posts a pic, then pressures your dd to do the same, it is very easy for dd to assume all is OK, and that Mom is just being overprotective again. If you are right there, it can't happen. We keep our desk top off line, so that she can go into the office and do homework. But if she wants to go online, then has to use the laptop in the kitchen.

By the way, I totally agree w/ the teen mags mentioned. And I am guilty of getting her a sub. for Seventeen without reading through it carefully - have really regretted that. It used to be a "fashion" mag, nothing like now.

[Nursing Mother]

JW, As far as I know Alex, hasn't been back here, but I hope he reads what you said, but it was good and I agree with it.

[Snow]

I'm with you both on this. As parents we have to speak our values loudly clearly and often. That doesn't mean that we are limiting information or that we are trying to create ignorant young adults, whether or not the young adults were truly all that ignorant in the '50s (birth of the baby boom). Knowlege is power and that includes knowlege of your family's values.

[Natashka]

This is off-topic a bit... I was shocked, not by the "dirty-talk", but by the involvement with online "friends" that all of you mention... Is this NORMAL? Sad... I know it sounds funny from someone enjoying a discussion group, but... What percentage of time does online time occupy?

[Snow]

Yes, this is normal today. My own teen has too many things going on after school to spend much time in a chat room or im'ing her friends, but many of her friends will spend a few hours a day at it. That is why I won't allow a computer in her bedroom! I also work w/ several teens and preteens who live for their online friends. I took a workshop last month on protecting our children online ---- learned so many scary facts. The teacher showed us online what the kids are exposed to. Showed us also letters from "kids" who were long time members of the chat room/im group/etc. Even scarier. Someone who you are convinced is 13 (with all the lingo, misspellings, complaints about parents, stories of abuse, etc) sends them a photo of "herself", and of course the kids respond in kind. It's a middle aged pedophile. And the teacher showed us how even the most innocuous details disclosed in chat can identify & locate our kids. Even if our kids don't disclose name and address or send a photo. For example, info about a soccer game - the name of the team, the opposing team, the field they were playing at etc ----- or a teacher's name -----or maybe a concert they saw last night ---both of those things can identify a city pretty quick. Only takes a few more details and they can be following your child irl. It happens.

[Els' 3 Ones]

I just want to say "thank you" NM. It may have been hard for you to post this here (it would have been for me) but I think it helped to open a lot of peoples eyes. It helped to cement my thoughts about children on the internet and chat rooms.

It may sound harsh but we will not allow our children in "chat" rooms. It is not an issue yet b/c they are way to young but this is what will be said in the future also. It is just too risky and too hard to supervise, IMO. I have been online for 5 years and have never "chatted" !!! Does this make me a freak? I'm a very verbal person and just don't think I'd like to carry on so blindly in a "room". This board is it for me..........I'd like to post at a couple other places but, quite frankly, I just don't have the time.

I think you handled it well. I also think it made a great impression on your children that the chat could be printed and read by you. Not a week goes by that there isn't something written about another sting operation tied to the chat rooms. Cops are picking up people right and left that are waiting to meet a child they got to know online. I've been preaching to my friends with teenagers for a couple of years now, to no avail I'm afraid.

[Nursing Mother]

Thanks so much Els' 3 one, like I said I don't get a lot of affirmaiton on my "conservative" views, so it means a lot when momma's like you and JW agree with me on this one. I will also tell dd, of the agreement I am finding on this thread. She sometimes think I am to old-fashion and that this topic is a Christian thing, when it really isn't. Chat lines not only use up so much time like Snow said, but the potential danger lies there also.

As far as dh and I are concerned there will be no more chat lines in this house. I will not allow a computer in their rooms either. We actually have 4 computers in the house now, including my laptop, so I can imagine for other families how it must be to be monitering their kids. It is a full-time job just keeping up with what your kids are watching on T.V. and what they are doing on the computer. I just hate this free access that our kids have to the media and other questionable junk, that just seems to come into our home. It was easy when the kids were young. Now that they are older, it gets more challenging every day.

[grisandole]

I don't allow my son on the internet. At all. He's 9, and I just don't find it necessary. He's computer literate, and plays computer games and such, but I don't let him go online. I feel the negatives outweigh the positives. Many people think I'm overprotective and backwards, but I don't care. And for me, it isn't only a protective issue, but about the fact that I'd rather he read a book or do an art project than surf the net. As for chatting, I'd rather he write a letter to a pen pal. Old fashioned, perhaps, but it works for us.

[Nursing Mother]

Hey, I think thats great, grisandole. Its just that the challenge gets harder as your kids get older. Both my teens do a lot of homework on line now, and forget about the library. All their research is also done online. I wish some teachers would "force" the kids to go to the library. Do you know that in some high-schools now kids e-mail their homework to their teachers. One class my ds goes to, the teacher has the kids e-mail. It is a special class where all the kids are on laptops and they are learning networking and everything else about computers. Times have really changed.

[Natashka]

I appreciate your responses about online time. Makes me lean towards homeschooling as I think ahead. Thank you. Definitely, a brave new world...

[barbara]

NursingMother,
I just want to add that I think you did the right thing also!

I was just discussing this with my married daughter. We want to warn moms that homeschooling does not protect your children from this kind of thing. My daughter was homschooled and only had "good christian friends" but still fell into this trap. She feels it is VERY DANGEROUS! Once you open yourself up to talk about sex you cross a line and you're more open to do it. Your thoughts will more easily go there and it is easier and natural to go futher and push the limits. She says that christian kids are just as fasinated with sex, if not more so. Her husband also was homeschooled and spent far too much time on the computer in chat rooms. He felt it was a very unhealthy way be living and that all the sex talk causes an obsession with it.

We have our computer in the main area of our house where anyone can read over your shoulder at any time, and our teenagers aren't allow on after mom and dad have gone to bed.
They aren't crazy about that, but understand the temptations.

We really can't be too careful...fantasys are one thing, but sharing them with others only leads to trouble.

I'm convinced that teens need to have LOTS of other interests to keep them busy!

[Dan Frank]

I suppose you wouldn't approve of this same daughter having sex with a boy her age, either, eh?

I find such a stance unfortunate for your daughter... sex is a natural part of life and growing up (note, not just a special treat reserved for those who have already crossed the imaginary invisible line into 'adulthood'), and talking about sex, or explicitly describing sexual acts for the purpose of sexual arousal, is just an aspect of the above.

Describing such acts online is little more than assisted masturbation... akin to reading an erotic novel, but instead one knows (or assumes or pretends, depending on how little is known of the person on the other end) that there's an actual person doing the same thing. She is growing up, and exploring more aspects of herself. This is a good thing.

I find what you said about teenage pregnancy interesting, Just Wondering, because in many countries sexual education is very different than in America. Many years ago I read a research paper on sex ed in a scandinavian county... I don't recall which (Sweden perhaps?). The paper, which cited a decent (not remarkable, but certainly believable) number of sources, reported the following: In at least some kindergarten classes, children practiced putting a condom on a banana. The average age at which teens lost their virginity was 15. And their rate of teenage pregnancy was a startlingly small fraction of our own (this was a long time ago, and I do not have the paper in front of me. . . I don't recall the actual percentage).

The abundance of teenage pregnancy in our society is not due to our teens having sex before they are 'ready'. . . it is due to people, such as parents and schools, being more preoccupied with telling them they aren't ready than with helping them to be ready.

[Dan Frank]

I am also appalled by the fact that children and teenagers are being denied the right to A) the Internet, and B) Chat rooms.

As for A. . . well, I can't see the 'negatives' outweighing the 'positives' by any stretch of the imagination. The Internet is a source for a remarkable amount of information, suitable for a variety of ages. For overprotective parents of the very young, there are a variety of netfilters available. While there is some deeply twisted stuff out there, it seems like maybe instead of pretending it doesn't exist, one could actually talk to their children about it.

I can't count the times my 2 year old nephew has gotten to see all sorts of interesting things on the internet. . . animals (have you ever heard of a Cerval? it's a kind of wild cat. . . like a cheetah), fire trucks, and the 'Scary Guy', who's website touts him as the 'Only LIVE Comic Book Hero' who strives to end prejudice worldwide.

I have never had ANY kind of popups while surfing with him. . . and I have also never seen, with him or alone, any popup porn worse than a guy and a gal having pretty uninteresting, straightforward sex (and you don't mind if your kid sees that, right? Regardless of how old they are when they do, your kids are going to have sex one day. . . they shouldn't start out thinking it's something shameful or bad). Never seen popups of child pornography, or pictures of people getting shot to pieces in Afghanistan, or of horses having sex with dogs. Those kinds of things generally require one to be actively seeking them.


As for B) Chat rooms are great fun. I do nearly everything in chat rooms that I do in RL, from discussing parenting, to arranging get-togethers, to playing Dungeons and freakin' Dragons! I, unfortunately, never really learned typing as a child, and so I have had to settle for a relatively-speedy, never-look-down, three- fingered style of typing.

The threat of perverts is overrated, in my experience. Every friend I have met over the internet I know to be who they say they are. Many I have met in person. Beforehand, I have always known a great deal about them (As well as seen photographs and spoken over the phone). . . many facts of which were verifiable. Perhaps because I believe I can take care of myself, I have never verified them. . . I've never met anyone in person but friends. Perhaps if I were female, or went by a female-sounding handle, this would not be the case. . . I have no way of knowing.

Regardless, I think the Net should be open to all, as it is by far the greatest means of gaining information available.

Then again, for all you know I'm an 80 year old pedophile/rapist General of the US Army who's just posting to try and get an unsuspecting young mother to email me. :D

[Snow]

Whether or not you would raise your own child that way, you do have to remember it is Nursing Mother's right and responsibility to share her own personal standards and expectations with her daughter.

And 15 is on the young side. But whether or not you would raise your daughter like that isn't the point. Nursing Mother didn't say she felt this was wrong for your daughter, she said she is concerned for HER daughter. I don't always agree with her. But this time I do.

[abimommy]

I agree that 15 is pretty young. I think you should just talk to your dd about it...I don't really know what you could say..LOL but it sounds like she needs a hobby or something.....if she had some sort of hobby she could get on boards that involved something other than just teen chat...YKWIM?? which in itself is just creaming for dirty talk to go on....

half the people on those are probably 80 year old pedophile/rapists

[jasnjakesmama]

:eek
Nursing Mother, I think you did the right thing. And I do believe your DD was probably grateful that you stepped in. Alot of times teens get involved in things they are just not ready for because of peer pressure. I wish someone had stepped in and found out about some of the things I was doing as a teen.

[3boys4us]

NM I think you did the right thing. She's too young to realize what sex and love are really about. And ITA with not having computer in her room. My oldest is only 8 but one of his friends has his own computer. I know I saw on Oprah (or something) that it is important to keep computers in a room where everyone has access and can be seen.

[Dan Frank]

Ah, Snow, but my reply was not just to Nursing Mother. It was to everyone , especially any mothers here who are undecided, as something of a counterpoint to the views thus far expressed. Unlike nearly every other poster, I don't think barring a teenager from the internet for exploring their sexuality in perhaps the safest possible way is the correct course of action. I was thus expressing my view in the hopes that, should another mother find herself in a similar situation, she might consider all sides of the situation before punishing her daughter unduly. I apologize if what I said seemed to be a personal attack, it was not meant as such.

[Snow]

Thanks.

I personally don't ban my teen from the internet, but rather keep only the laptop in the kitchen on line. That way she can do her homework at the desk top if she wants, but if she wants to go online then there are always other people around.
Obviously that will thwart her explorations (!) and I'm OK with that. She has access to whatever books she wants to read on the subject and parents who are always available to answer questions. I understand what you are saying about internet safety, but I just don't agree. I have a friend who works for a large police dept in the area of internet child porn and internet child molesters. I attended one of her workshops and what I learned was sobering.

Respectfully, do you have a teenager? I only ask that because am normally very left wing liberal, and now with my baby out there am much more aware of how vulnerable she really is and feel the need to protect her whether or not she thinks she needs said protection. If I only had younger kids, then my only experience with teens would be my own experience as a teenager, and as a teen I thought teens were very mature, self sufficient and invinceable --- concepts proven wrong as my dd turned 13!

[glh]

Snow-I was thinking of asking that same question myself. You cannot imagine what having a teen is like until you've been there.

[jasnjakesmama]

Absolutely. And furthermore, I do not think the internet is the safest place for a teenager to explore their sexuality. There are some graphic and disturbing images that can be found on the net.
Keeping the computer in a heavily trafficked space in the house seems to be the best idea so far.

[abimommy]

I do **NOT** think the internet is an appropiate place for teens to discuss their sexuality.

I bet on "teen chat" room that 90% are sick 40 year old perverts. I **CANNOT** believe any thinking person would suggest such a horrid thing.

If I had a 15 year old I would rather them go do whatever on their own with someone THEIR OWN AGE than fall prey to some sicko who would destroy the innocence of my child with their disgusting perversion. However I would hope that I had taught my child to hold true to their morals.

[jasnjakesmama]

Originally posted by abimommy
I bet on "teen chat" room that 90% are sick 40 year old perverts. I **CANNOT** believe any thinking person would suggest such a horrid thing.

If I had a 15 year old I would rather them go do whatever on their own with someone THEIR OWN AGE than fall prey to some sicko who would destroy the innocence of my child with their disgusting perversion.

ITA!

[AutumnMoonfire]

The internet is so not a safe place for a teen to explore sexuality. A teen is exposed to too many dangers, 45 yo perverts or 19 yo guys who're looking for an easy lay...all right in any medium size american town. 10-20 years ago I was a young teen with an active imagination. Most of it stayed right there in my head. I cannot imagine how hard it must be to monitor teens today, I have 2 dd's and I plan to keep careful tabs on their computer activities when they get older. Such trash talk is dangerous and can ruin lives.

I have to say this too...I question Dan's motives, But this is wholly my own opinion...

[jasnjakesmama]

I understand what you are saying about motives....I will reserve judgement at this time and hope for the best. :)

[Alexander]

Originally posted by abimommy
I do **NOT** think the internet is an appropiate place for teens to discuss their sexuality.



Maybe not the best place, but certainly open and non-judgemental.


I bet on "teen chat" room that 90% are sick 40 year old perverts.

lol

Well! 90% huh? They must be a disappointed and frustrated lot!

a

[Alexander]

Originally posted by AutumnMoonfire


I have to say this too...I question Dan's motives, But this is wholly my own opinion...

Ouch!

YUK!

Within this difficult and sensitive subject, this is tanatmount to an accusation! Much like accusing a woman who defends an accused witch in the middle ages, of being one herself. There is no defence to that type of fear generated by being fearful of each other.

It is a hole we do not want to find ourselves falling into.

Please stop this practice immediately.

a

[Snow]

Alexander, personally, I didn't question his motives but just wondered if he had teens of his own. It makes a lot of difference, and you may not believe me until you are there. But when my dd1 turned 13, everything changed - it's hard to describe what it is like until you go through it.

Now, if someone else wants to question Dan's motives I personally wouldn't call them on it in this case. You have to admit that for him being a newcomer and coming directly to a thread with this title, and then posting what he did, can lead to speculation. IMHO it is a totally different kettle of fish than having a known commodity post an opposing viewpoint on something this sensitive. YKWIM? It's not that it's an opposing viewpoint, which anyone is entitled to, it's the context.

Does that make sense?

[lilyka]

Perfect sence. I totally agree.

I agree too that an internet chatroom is not a safe place for children to explore sexuality (of course imho marriage is the only safe place for people to explore thier sexuality). First there are the people you don't know. enough said. Then there are the people you do know. How do you know how they are going to use the information you type. For all you know someone could print off your intimate fanticies and post them on the hallway bulliten board for the whole school to see. Nice. There is a quick way to wreck a gorls sexual security for a good long time. it is easier to type things here because I don't have to see the looks of judgement on peoples faces and know that most of the people here don't know me personally or anyone I know. It feels safer., but in reality it is not.

Sandra

[Dale]

How much do we know about Dan?
He lists his occupation as professional loafer. His homepage is www.nonexistent.com. He states in another thread that he is not a dad. Dan, how long has it been since you were a teenager? Or are you one still?

[Dan Frank]

Hoo-doggy!
Inquisition time.

First of all, I'm not a newcomer... I'm a lurker. There's a difference. I have thus far been observing the Dads board, the Preteens and Teens board (for obvious reasons), and the Gentle Parenting Board.

And my sister, as it says below, used to frequent Mothering. Dale, does the fact that I'm not a parent mean I am automatically wrong? Since BEING a parent doesnt automatically make one right (somehow I don't think any of you would condone beating a child with a rod, now, would you?), why would the reverse be true? (as an aside, I am a professional loafer because I don't think "Student" is a job... I don't get paid.)

Snow might say it doesn't make me wrong, but that I don't understand because I haven't gone through it... maybe all parents do. Except, my mom didn't. I know she wouldn't be much fazed or upset if I had cybersex... she knows that I am intelligent (gasp) person who knows what he is doing.

I wrote the below post yesterday, but due to reasons unclear to me, couldn't post it. I was on a PC, and I must admit I'm a bit Windows Illiterate.


In fact, I myself am a teenager (gasp), and not a parent (my older sister, however, is, and I enjoy discussing parenting issues with her... hence my reason for coming here)

I have never had cybersex, or engaged in particularly explicit talk with anyone via a chat room. I know some people who have, none of which would particularly want their parents to know.

I have a few questions for anyone here who 'questions my motives' and continues to spout the tired rhetoric that perverts patrol teen chatrooms, looking to prey on innocent girls.

How many such perverts have you actually encountered? Stories about them were big in Reader's Digest for a while, but really, personally... have you encountered one?

Do you think your child is going to go and look for some of the really sick and twisted stuff that passes for 'pornography' and 'entertainment' out there? If so, I think you should have a long talk with them, and seriously consider professional counseling. If not, then that's really not a harm at all.

Nursing Mother, was your daughter chatting in a public Teen Chatroom forum, or via some other form of chat like AIM or a more specific ircle channel? If the former, then perverts are certainly possible... if the latter, then it was likely a planned rendezvous with some of her friends, perhaps even friends in RL.

Additionally... let's say your (a general your, now) daughter is in a public forum teen chatroom, likely frequented by bored and/or lonely teens, and by the occasional sick 80 year old pedophile/rapists So? What are these disturbed individuals going to do to harm your daughter? Is your daughter really so naive and dumb to not do any form of checking on this person whatsoever, and just go meet him behind your back in a public place the day after she meets him? And 'dumb', while a harsh judgement, is a TRUE judgement.

Teens are generally at least vaguely aware of what's going on in the society at large... I don't know a single person, age 12-18, who would do such a foolish thing. Many friends of mine, female and male, have met friends, even occasional romances, through the net. I'd say these all total easily 200 people counting all sides of the equation. Not one involved anyone pretending to be anything other than who they are.

And if your teen HAS spent the last 10 years in a cave, with her eyes shut and her fingers in her ears, and has never heard of pedophiles and rapists on the net... then maybe you should discuss them with her, rather than tell her she can't use the net, just because.

The internet is only as dangerous as one makes it.

Posted by a 16 year old, inexperienced in all forms of sex due to personal moral stances and lack of opportunity combined. (Of course, you don't have to believe me if you don't want to... I kind of prefer it when people think I'm an adult, as they listen to me a bit more)

[Nursing Mother]

I'm not sure whats going on here, but I am definintely not getting good vibesl. Dan your reasoning is unacceptable. It sounds like you really like the idea of allowing teens on chat lines and such even when blantant sexuality is being discussed. Sorry, not normal in my book. Exactly who are you?

[Dan Frank]

Just out of curiousity... did you actually read my monolithic post? I said exactly who I am... I am a teen who thinks that, rather than 'allowing' teens, parents should help their teens to explore their interests in whatever way they see fit. If this means the parent should give their child information about the potential dangers of the internet (which, as I said, I believe to be superfluous), then that is what the parent should do.

My sister thinks just about all I need to do to get myself banned at this point is say: "TCS"....

we'll see ;)

[Nursing Mother]

We posted at the same time. Dan thanks for explaining yourself a bit. However I find your attitude quite condesending being that you yourself do not have a teen-age daughter. You seem to also think that internet chatlines are a great "educational" sexual experience for young people. As you can see most of the mothers here disagree. Thanks snow and others for agreeing with me on this one. I have seen and done research on internet porn and only one who has seen the suff would believe the horrible perversion that is targeted to our children via, chatlines, and other sites. (thats another thread btw) Perverts are alive and well. Just last week here in Seattle a whole network of child porn users were arrested,(teachers, military officier and others) why? for luring young kids (on chatlines) to meet with them and hopefully have sex. What a crazy world. Dan, WAKE UP!

And thank-you wonderful mothers, thank God we have the intuition to know what is right and not-right for our own be-loved children. (excuse me if this sounds sexist)

...and Dan thankyou for your interest in this subject, but you don't sound like a teen to me. Yes, call me skeptical..if you wish, I'm allowed, I am just the mother of 5 children trying to raise them in this overly-materialistic, sexually explicit, perverted culture of ours!

[Dan Frank]

I am well aware of the multitude of horrific stuff masquerading for porn out there... Firstly, what does the disgusting pornography have to do with your daughter? She won't go looking for it, will she? Besides, chances are she knows what it is, and just has no interest in it. So, how does it affect her? It doesnt.

As for perverts... I never said they didn't exist. I asked if you know any teens, or anyone who has a teen, who has succumbed to the wiles of a internet pervert. Stories of pedophiles being arrested is kind of like stories of plane crashes... they ALWAYS make the news, at least at a local level. Car crashes often don't. By the same token, all the stories of people meeting friends and even spouses over the net just don't get the same kind of coverage, because they're too common. Not to mention positive and devoid of scandal...

You never answered my question about the type of chatline. AIM and many ircle channels are completely closed, which means she would know (in rl or via the net) the people she was talking to.


Wow... so I'm really a middle aged perv, eh? Thanks for informing me.

Daniel Jackson Frank
DOB: 11/04/85
Height: nearly 6 ft
weight: 180 or so
Exceptionally long hair.
Born in: Oakland, CA, by Cesarean section.
Current Residence: Robin Hood Drive (yes, it's a real street)El Sobrante, CA
Two sisters, one brother. All are at least 10 years older than me.

I would give my social security number, but that would just be stupid :)

And I would give my full address, but then I might be mail bombed or assaulted by overzealous conservative parents.

[Snow]

Dan, thanks for coming back to explain yourself. You may actually be a 16 year old boy. I may actually be a 16 year old boy. Who knows? That's the beauty of the internet.

I'm glad that you don't know of any 12-18 year old kids who "would such a foolish thing" as to meet up with someone they met on the internet. Well, I do, and she's in the next room!

Respectfully, let me tell you a little about what is out there. Just because you haven't encountered it doesn't mean it's not there. This workshop that I took wasn't just a lecture with the participants just taking notes and nodding our heads at what was said. Nope, we got on the computers and took them for a spin. We visited teen chat rooms, private rooms, IMing, and linked sites etc. The images were fast and furious.

We also read case histories from our own neighborhoods, of predators who had lured (both boys and girls) to a meeting. And even scarier was when there was no luring involved. The latter involved detective work, and not much, to determine the teen's identities and locations. And then the predator just goes and finds them - easy. Way too easy. It doesn't take a kid agreeing to meet someone the day after meeting them, like you suggested. These kids NEVER agreed to meet anyone at all. Most never posted a picture, name or address. All they were doing was talking to a "15 year old girl" on line, the same one who's been on that site for the past month. Maybe "she" has even posted a picture.

It can take as little as mentioning your soccer game one week and the name of the team that won. Maybe the next week you are chatting about the NSync concert you saw last night. And 2 weeks later you bitch about you algebra 2 teacher Ms Belling. OK - now he's got you. Can you see how? The concert identified your city. The team that beat you identified your team, by using the date of the game and then that identifies the field you played at - thus your neighborhood. Then a search of the local high schools staffs leads to your algebra 2 teacher, and a search of the class roster (easily hacked) provides the names of all the kids, which are then cross referenced against the names of the kids on your soccer team..... minutes later he has your home address and phone number. And after having been online with you for 4 weeks, he knows your daily schedule and will become a part of it tomorrow.

Honey, this happens all too often.

What are the odds of this happening to my 13 year old daughter? Pretty slim, given all that. But I'm not playing roulette with a child that means more to me than life itself.

[Dale]

Dan,

No. Not being a father does not make you wrong. I noticed some others in the thread questioning your motives as though you might be one of those predatory older males looking for naive teen girls on the net. It occured to me that you sounded like a teenager yourself in your defense of teens in chat rooms, so I was just trying to point that you might be one.

You think you've been inquisitioned? You should have been around a couple months ago when I first started posting here. Stay cool. I think you'll be appreciated here but not necessarily right away.

[Nursing Mother]

Thanks Dale for bringing that up. Yes, I remember the inquisition you went through, I was in on that . After time however, yes a person gains respect from others by their posting over time. Dan, we just need to see you around the boards a bit more. I noticed you have all of 8 posts total. Thats just not enough for most of us "skeptical" ones like me to know you are on the up & up with us here on Mothering. Your opinion is entirely welcome, but do expect some cynicism and doubt especially on a subject like this.

Snow, thanks for your reality check:thumb

[Dan Frank]

Yes, thanks for the reality check.

I'll chime in with a reality check of my own.

First of all, Snow, you misquoted me. I didn't say I don't know anyone who would meet someone they met on the net... I said I don't know anyone who would do so WITHOUT any background information/verification.

There are many ways of verification.

Firstly, there is the obvious... lengthy, personal discussions... but that could be faked (though it would get difficult, if one were to correspond for as long as most people I know do). Then, there are phone calls. Now, if you are masquerading as someone of a different sex, you really can't do phone calls. if not, then perhaps a 40 year old man could replicate a teenage voice... I don't know. Of course, photos can simply be of other people.

Then, you can get fancy. Know all those tricks a rapist can use, taking things said and so on? So can a teen, if so inclined. I have never felt inclined to run a background check, but I know a few people who have. It's not too hard.

Of these pre-meeting precautions, the phone is probably the best way, since it's easy and pretty hard to fake.

Then, there are meeting precautions. First of all, generally public places are good. Additionally, bringing friends is good.

However, statistically speaking, teenage girls perhaps cannot be relied upon to take actual meeting precautions (phone calls, on the other hand, every teen with any vestige of information will do)

I say this because my brother in law just told me to say it. He recently saw a documentary/type thing, in which some people did a sort of test. THey got three big, gruff guys, dressed em up to look scarier (dirty leather jackets, crewcuts, etc), and put em in a van with blacked out windows. Then they got a fourth guy to approach girls, offer them 50$ to be in a magazine shoot, and asked em to get in the van. A startling number of girls did it.

Now one might say this counterracts my previous arguments that teens are smart... but if you accept the above as a fact (as opposed to a side effect of keeping teens in the dark instead of giving them information), then really, if you don't allow chat room access you might as well ban them from walking down the street, too... the likelihood of them getting kidnapped and raped is higher.

You do "let" your kids walk down the street alone, no? You talk of the chances being slim, and not wanting to "play roulette"... but the chances of their being raped are significantly higher doing many other things, as can be seen by the statistics below. Their chances of DYING are great while in cars... do you "let" them ride in cars, or are they to walk everywhere? Course, then they're susceptible to rape again... darn. Better just lock em in the closet Harry Potter style, eh?

I have taken a somewhat sarcastic, flippant attitude (obviously). My reason for this is simple: I think forbidding your child from engaging in highly beneficial (not necessarily cybersex, though I still maintain it is not harmful, but rather use of the internet and chatrooms as a whole) because there is a small percentage of risk involved is folly. Instead, a parent should discuss the benefits and drawbacks to a given subject, and let the child make an informed decision for themself.


And here are the statistics for the two afore-mentioned topics.

On rape, this from the D of J:
68% of all rape victims actually know their rapist .

28% of all rape victims are raped by their husbands or boyfriends, and
5% by their relatives.

45% of all rapists were under the effects of alcohol or other drugs (and thus, likely not wholly twisted perverts who spent weeks cultivating their victim).

So really, no boyfriends, no male relatives... heck, just eliminate her friends altogether. The chances of her being raped far outweigh any possible benefits of so-called "Human Contact".


And this on car crashes, from the NHTSA

37,409 people were killed in car accidents in the year 2000. That's a whole lotta people.

Motor vehicle crashes are the leading cause of death in teens.

approximately 8,000 of those were teenage drivers, and 75-80% of teenage-driver accidents are simply caused by driver error. Only 5-25% of teenage car accidents are caused by alcohol. (the variations are due to varying percentages for teens ages 16-19)

So basically, theres no WAY you should "let" your kid go driving before she's 20, and it's probably better to bypass car travel altogether.

There are some good bike statistics, too, but I won't bore you with them.

Posted by someone who understands reality just fine, thanks.

[Alexander]

Originally posted by Dale
You think you've been inquisitioned? You should have been around a couple months ago when I first started posting here. Stay cool. I think you'll be appreciated here but not necessarily right away.

Ditto on that.

I find this thread to be over-reative to the idea that teens use private chat rooms to discuss sex. My feeling (which may be wrong) is that parents that object, do so primarily because they object to their teen "talking dirty". If they were to do this with their friends in the privicy of their own bedrooms, would the objectors on this thread object.

I suspect so, in which case, the "reasoning" that they are subjecting themselves to risk is merely a cover for preventing teens from doing this.

If the objection is that they are subjecting themselves to risk, then educating the teens about secure Virtual Rooms is the solution.

Of course, I am male, and nearly 40! ;) but have no idea how to use a chat room!

LOL

Um, and probably more than 500 posts (can't see just now).

a

[Dan Frank]

Alexander...

I agree. And on top of that, I don't see anything wrong with teens 'talking dirty' if they feel like they're ready to do so.

And yes, my primary reason for posting this is to get double digit posts :D Whoohoo!

[Alexander]

Go Dan my Man!

I just noticed that that was post 700! Not 500! So does that mean I am well respected? Or not finding enough time to check out the teens in the Chat Room?

Just kidding along guys!

a

[Dan Frank]

If i was smart, I'd have broken up some of my multi-pagers into several posts. Darn! :crying

[Alexander]

Stop that now!

Darn is such a naughty word!

a

[barbara]

Gentleman,
First I want to say that I appreciate having a male perspective now and again on these boards! Thanks for sticking around.

I do want to interject that the male perspective on some subjects will be different than the female. (that will probably get my feminists friends all over me) In this case I think that coming from a male viewpoint, you may be missing the emotional danger that moms (being female) see so clearly. For a guy "dirty talk" and cybersex are perhaps a sexual exploration, or a momentary release of sexual tension. For a girl it is more complex. Her emotions are tied up deeply in her sexual exploration and for most young girls can not be seperated. Most girls will not simply have an experience "talking dirty" and leave it there. They will continue be effected in their emotions and fantasy life. Perhaps this is ok for some, but as a parent of a teenage daughter NM is concerned about that kind of sexual exploration for her daughter. I think both you men might feel differently when you have a daughter of your own...perhaps not...but at least you may consider that effects on young girls are different than that of most boys.

Dan, I think you are a very articulate 16 year old young man, and I do understand that most adults won't take you seriously when they know your age. I have several teenagers and young adult children that have the same problem. I personally find that age is seldom an accurate measure of intelligence.

Peace,

[AutumnMoonfire]

Dan, you misrepresented yourself. That is very easy to do on the net, and just my point. We can't know who is in a chat room. It might be safe one day and not safe another. It was your assumed persona that set off alarm bells in my mind, especially given the topic of this thread. You may very well be a teenager, but be aware you have destroyed your crdibilty with me by having misrepresented yourself.

I too am familiar with rape stats, date rape is included in the definition of "knowing your attacker". I also doubt that a 15 year old girl can make the moment to moment safety choices in such an encounter. and said attacker might not be an older guy. It could be a 19yo who says he is 17 and the 15yo may not be aware that he has "plans".

Teen girls and guys have diffrent expectations of life and dating and sexuality. If a chat room could be absolutely guarenteed as to the participants I might feel differently, but that is not the case. Also people do lurk in chatrooms, maybe never saying a word, like you have lurked these boards, I support NMs concearns but I bet I am still way liberal compared to her.

Finally people can and do lie with statistics all the time. Look at politics, where it happens daily...

[deardee]

I have been reading this thread and I understand the points of view of all of the participants. It is a scary world and every parent wants to do all they can to keep their children from harm. One small slip could lead to terrible consequences. What can parents do? I think that the strongest protection that a child can have is to be armed with clear perceptitions, creativity, intelligence, knowlege of the realities of the world, a workable ethical frame work, confidence and hopefully empathy and consideration for others. These qualities develop from experience, from trying and making mistakes and trying again. When children of all ages are not with their parents they try out all kinds of behavior and generally break the rules. The time that we can have the illusion of controlling their behavior is all too brief. They will be alone in many potentially dangerous situations. We can not always be with them. I have tried to give my children a framework of ethics based on compassion and caring that they can take with them. I have felt that this is more important than conventional morality or rote obedience to social mores. For me, a test was if my children acted the same way with people when they were aware of my presence as when they thought no adults were watching them. Often this was the case. Now they are generally people I am happy to have as friends-kind, creative, intelligent, and fun. By the way, I am Dan's mother and overhearing his conversations with my daughter about this directed me to this sight.

[Nursing Mother]

Hey welcome deardee, you happen to have a very intelligent son! I hope you both stick around!

[Dan Frank]

Barbara, The male perspective of a teenage girl engaging in explicit talk, on average, might differ... I don't really know, and am reluctant to guess (since I know a lot of dads who would definitely take NM's side on this, and my sister and mother are both one of the reasons I have the opinions on this that I do.

Except for perhaps a rare few, any sexual experience involving more than yourself requires a great deal of emotional investment.

However, I know some teenage girls who would not agree with the idea that, especially when via the internet, sexual exploration is necessarily something that they will remain invested in for a long period of time. That is, to some girls I know, sexual exploration does not = important relationship.

By the same token, some guys I know (myself included) feel that sexual exploration, even over the internet, is an important undertaking not to be approached lightly. I don't think having cybersex will solve any of my problems or make me a happier person, and I think it could hurt me in some way down the road. So I don't do it.

But I am not so arrogant as to think that just because something isn't right for me , it must not be right for anyone else, either. I trust that my friends who do engage in it know what they are doing and do so because they want to.

Autumn Moonfire, Just how did I represent myself? I never claimed to be a parent. My age and identity was initially not in question... when it was, I responded by identifying myself.

Perhaps it's just that I didn't say: "Well, I'm just a sex-starved 16 year old who thinks every girl should be free to be as promiscuous as she wants, and you don't actually need to read my reasons for thinking this, you can just immediately jump to the obvious conclusion and ignore me."

What was my assumed persona and how did I happen to assume it? THe registration form for this site is for those over 13 ... thus I could very well have been even younger, and it should not have raised any eyebrows.

I never said a teenage girl could take the necessary steps to prevent rape if she was already in that situation (indeed, as the stats show, many women fail to as well... one would imagine it to be a very difficult situation, no?). I said that a teen could (and would, in my experience) take steps before she met said rapist. I believe it was Snow who offered the possibility of cracker-rapists (that is, illegal hackers, not racist southerners), which is certainly a possibility. But, barring that, only the extremely naive would do such a thing. And information is a surer cure for naivete than the elimination of a dangerous, intensely useful blessing such as the internet.

Additionally, one CAN be completely sure of the identities in a chatroom, as I have previously said. And, in AIM sessions and private ircle channels, the only lurkers would have to be exceptional crackers to boot.

Yes people can lie with statistics. I got my rape statistics from the Department of Justice, so you may take any errors up with them. The car stats, which were obviously only important for my sarcastic comments, came from the homepage of NHTSA, an organization who's full name escapes me. Try looking up NHTSA on google, and you should find it. It took my forever to actually find percentage and number charts, so I simply leaped upon the first one I found.

Hi mom.

PS: I have yet to have someone relate a personal experience of encountering a pervert through chatrooms. Not a class about net perverts, but an actual encounter. Perhaps they aren't as prevalent as people would have us believe...

[barbara]

Deardee and Dan, Welcome! It is refreshing to have a young person's views brought to this forum that is mostly mamas. We can get a little one-sided here. I often share with my daughters some of the posts to get their perspective and they have found this one to be especailly interesting since it is relavant to their lives.
My now married daughter did have some experience in this area and she felt it was harmful to her in the long run. She also felt that engaging in this with people you know is worse because it doesn't end when you leave the computer. Perhaps some girls can walk away from this kind of experimentation and leave it at that, she couldn't. I attribute that to her moral and ethicical convictions. My teenage dd said "If you're going to have sex have real sex!" Now I know that her moral conviction is not to engage in this type of thing but peer pressure and couriousity can be very persuasive. Therefore, we help her resist by keeping the computer in the main part of the house. That said, I would ultimately agree with you Deardee when you say:
When children of all ages are not with their parents they try out all kinds of behavior and generally break the rules. The time that we can have the illusion of controlling their behavior is all too brief. They will be alone in many potentially dangerous situations. We can not always be with them. I have tried to give my children a framework of ethics based on compassion and caring that they can take with them. I have felt that this is more important than conventional morality or rote obedience to social mores. For me, a test was if my children acted the same way with people when they were aware of my presence as when they thought no adults were watching them.
My son-in-law was raised by parents that did not feel this way, and kept tight reign on their children. He and all his brothers and sisters learned to be very sneaky, and acted much differently around their parents. He hopes for something different for his son.
Often people will live up to the expectations that others have of them. Maybe if we treat our teenages as if they are capable of making good moral and ethical choices they will.

[AutumnMoonfire]

When I first looked at your profile you said your age was 43. That is a misrepresentation. A 43 year old male arguing that teen girls should be allowed to engage in cybersex is very suspicious. Especially one without a job.

I understand that you often feel disrespected because of your age. In this one case your assumed persona combined with your argument made you look pretty bad. If you choose to do this in the future be aware that this is one of the more benign things that can happen when you assume a persona.

Now, Teen girls can explore their sexuality in many ways that do not expose them to other people. They can read sexually explicit romance novels, they can write erotica in their journals, they can sneak peeks at blueboy mags and Playgirl. There are many women written erotica websites. All of these do not involve public exposure of a teen's explorations. It's also how many 30+ year old women like me explored these issues as teens. All my parents ever said was that these books did not potray a healthy relationship between men and women. They knew it wasn't harmful for me to read them...

As far as not having personal knowledge of these cases...Murder happens yet I have not known anyone personally who has met such an end. I am 35.

A girl in NH was killed by a stalker who she barely knew from highschool. It does happen. If a mother knows this stuff and does not protect her children as best she can she will not be able to sleep at night. There are far safer ways to explore sexualty then chat rooms.

[Nursing Mother]

Something is still strange here. I hate to be a party pooper, but....:scratch

[AutumnMoonfire]

Yeah NM I agree, it is strange. Teen or adult Dan just does not add up... You are not a party pooper, you are a careful mom.

And I loved the Smiley!

:hippie

[Dan Frank]

Barbara, I'd like to thank you for your input. I believe in my previous posts I have said that I know girls who are similar to your daughter (who either couldn't walk away or didn't want to try it at all). As I said, I also know guys who feel the same way. I, personally, subscribe to much the same theory your daughter now holds... that is, "If you're going to have sex have real sex!"... I have never had cybersex, and doubt I ever will. But my post was not about my own personal convictions.

I think that your statement about it being relative to ones personal ethical convictions is dead-on, but the way you phrased it (no offense) leads me to believe you think such a stance is the only 'right' moral stance to take. here, perhaps, we disagree. I think that, when it comes to matters such as this, there is a very wide range of what should be considered 'acceptable' moral beliefs. I would not dispute one who wished to wait until marriage before any form of sexual experience, nor would I dispute someone who enjoyed consensual one-night-stands. Personally, I find both views horrendously wrong, but I think each person has the right to make that decision for themselves.

I am aware of peer pressure, although, honestly, none of my friends are much for their peer's opinion... I doubt any of them, male or female, do it because they feel pressured to do so. Certainly none admit to it, but then, as they are my peers, perhaps they are just denying it to seem 'cool'.


The personal attacks get a bit tiresome, AutumnMoonfire, but I will address what you have said because I believe it requires addressing.

I am perplexed as to how I listed my age as 43 when I can't seem to find the spot for "Age". I see a bunch of stuff about AIM and ICQ handles, i see biography, website, location, and job. I filled it all out initially, in an ambiguous and humorous (to me, anyway) way. (my home city is El Sobrante... which translates into The Leftovers. Technically, it relates to land grants, but it's still amusing).

I have not changed anything on my profile since I registered. I would rather not tell someone what they saw... but you are mistaken.

As I said, I don't consider "Student" a job until you start getting paid for it. Right now, I'm still in the You-Pay-Us-So-We-Can-Make-You-Conform section of school.

Again, I did not assume a persona. You assumed a persona for me. There is a distinct difference.

Why is exploring one's sexuality in a way that involves someone else a bad thing? Why do you assume that cybersex is automatically, or even usually, harmful? Barbara has given me an example of a situation in which it was. I can, if truly necessary, get a couple of my friends and/or acquaintances to post differing views. (Of course, they could be guys. But then, so could Barbara ;))

Yes, people get murdered all the time. People die all sorts of ways, all sorts of times. Most of these ways are activities you would not dream of "forbidding" a teen from doing (Walking down the street, taking a bus, etc). My point, which you seem to not want to comprehend, is that such activities are not much different from chat rooms, except in chat rooms, the chance of actual danger is lower. I'm not saying the danger isn't there. I'm saying it isn't as big as some make it, and that there are a multitude of POSITIVE aspects to boot. I'm saying that, if a teen wants to go to a chat room, the risks are worth it, the same way the risk is worth "letting" them go down the street to see a movie.

Okay, a girl was killed by someone in highschool. That happens. What does that have to do with the internet? Or are you saying you should force your child to homeschool, because Highschools are too dangerous?

Unsure what you mean, NM, please elaborate.

And I already commented on the personal attacks, AutumnMoonfire.

[Chanley]

Dan,

In my years online and in chats, I have met a handful of young boys who had the intelligence and forethought that you have shown in this thread.

Thank you for taking the time to do this, I am enjoying it immensely. I can imagine that you have a wonderful house in which your family is close enough to discuss all of these matters. I am in agreement with you on this one.

I have a daughter and I dont for one second believe I can stop her from "talking dirty" when she is old enough to understand what that is. My own parents would die if they knew what I knew when I did. I just do what I can to arm my daughter with the tools to make the best decisions about her behavior.

BTW, NM you handled this well.

[Nursing Mother]

Thanks Chanley.

Hi Dan, elaborate on what? The fact I feel a little suspicious of you. Thats just my nature sorry. I have teens myself, and they just don't talk, write, use terminology like you do. I'm not saying a teen can't, its just I guess I've never been around one. I just have these darn, female, intutition vibes giving me a red flag here. But hey, I've been known to be wrong
:rolleyes:

[Dan Frank]

Thank you Chanley, I too am enjoying this (hey, otherwise I wouldn't be here). And I definitely attribute my views to my family and my upbringing.

Nursing Mother, if it makes you feel any better, I don't always actually speak in the way that I have been speaking here. I can slur and slang and be confusingly and annoyingly teenager with, well, not the best of em, but with some pretty unintelligible guys. I can also carry on intelligent conversations (Gasp) with 'adults'. I attribute my multi-dialectual knowledge to the combined effects of 1) public school, 2) homeschool, and 3) college.

I also have multiple speech modes while online. I consider myself a master of good old fashioned netspeak (not to be confused with l33t, in which I only dabble on rare occasions). As I said in those parens, I also dabble in the very confusing, generally just stupid, but often funny as hell form of typed speech called 'l33t'. And, like in my spoken vocabulary, when necessary I can speak clearly, concisely, and with little or no errors (I am well aware Dialectual is not a word). I generally reserve this last, very boring, mode of communication for when debating a point, such as I have been doing. If one were to ever find me in a chat room, I would be nearly unrecognizable.

As for intuitions... well, first of all, always have taken exception to the concept that intuition and instinct is reserved for females alone. I equate it to the postulation that women have smaller brains than men... once accepted theory (Proposed by Aristotle), but now obviously prejudiced hogwash.

I have seen at least one seemingly-legitimate study, published in the San Fransisco Chronicle a few years ago, which gave contrary evidence. It stated that, while it is widely believed, even by men, that intuition is a woman's domain (or at least mostly so), all evidence points to such equality as to make any difference inconsequential, and particular to that case's of subjects.


Besides this, I have always considered the emphasis some people place on intuition (my mother, for one) to be somewhat misplaced. I am not saying Intuition, or Instinct, does not exist... only that I believe it is not a substitute for rational thought and reasoning.

This belief was recently (on these boards, in fact) fueled, when I saw a woman worried about her husband. She confronted him, and resolved the issue. Then, several women posted and told her that her "gut" had first told her that her worries were sound, and that, despite all the statistics posted by other, saner moms, and despite the fact that she had spoken with her husband on the matter, she should "go with her gut".

I find such a suggestion horrendous, but I have promised myself to save the bulk of my argument in favor using reason and intuition for a new thread. If you are at all interested, it should appear in the Parenting Issues forum some time between now and the time I die.

(I don't have a snappy ending for this one.)

[lilyka]

If they were to do this with their friends in the privicy of their own bedrooms, would the objectors on this thread object.

I'll fess up (as if I have to) that yes I would be uncofortable with that to because I feel sharing those kinds of secrets even with people whose face you can see is still risky because you don't know if you can trust them to keep such juicy information a secret and before you know it it is all around school and some little teen preditor (not all predetors are middle aged men. some are 16 year old local celebreties that every body loves and nobody would ever suspect) has it in his mind that suzie likes it rough and poor suzie's fantacy turns into her worst nightmare. . . Sorry, I just think teenage sexual fantacies that dance through your mind should stay there. They are much better there where noone can stomp on them anyay.

Dan-
You are so obviously a teenager that I need not question te truth of that statement.

Even private chat rooms can be hacked by someone with moderate computer skills. Nothing you write on the computer or even paper is ever completely safe.

I hate to burst your bubble but untill you have been a parent you really have no idea what is is like. And this may sound sexest but no man will ever have the priveledge or heart ache of being a mother and will therefore never fully understand the reasons why a mother acts and feels as she does. some things defy word or expression. Not even if you spend a lot of time with neices and nephews or talking about parenting theories with people who have been there. I really thought I knew when I was a kid how I would parent and what I would do. (I also had perfect , even tempered, gentle, agreeable children in these fantisies) I also thought I had the mysteries of the universe figured out, that any idiot could balance a checkbook consistantly, marraige would be apiece of cake, life would be rosy and I would be happy in the suburbs (hence forth refered to as ticky tacky hell :) I was wrong on all accounts. I love my children more than I thought possible, I protect them more fiercly than I ever thought i would and I really do know a million more things about life than they do and a million more than I did at 16.

I work with teens on a regular basis and I have seen first hand the dangers of lack of parental involvement and know that a little bit of over protection is a lot more healthy for everyone. I also know that I dare not tell a parent of a teenager how to do thier job because I have never been in thier shoes. I have 10 more years of living with Madz before I can truely understand where Nursing Mother is. So until then I will encourage her in her decisions knowing that she ultimately knows what is best for her dd and is full of wisdom that I can only pray for and is truely doing what is best for her child (and ultimately what I hope I would have the courage to do).

I watch the kids I work with run headlong into catastrophy (even after they have had the consequencesmade very clear to them) and am helpless, most often, to stop them. I cringe for thir pain but offer little sympathy. Any idiot can pretend they have all the answers but a truely intellegent person will seek the counsel of the wise.


I hope you don't feel I have been to harsh on you but I did want you to understand 3 things. I case I have been to wordy I will clarify:

1) parents do know a lot more than thier children even if the expression of it comes out irrational or wrong.

2)Since you misrepresented yourself, it will take a while for us to trust you. Even when we do trust you you opinions and theories are just that. Opinions and theories of someone one with no experiance so don't be dissapointed if no one gives weight to your words.

3)You have a lot to learn before you can understand what it is like on your parents side of the fence. If nothing else perhaps we can help you see the world through your parents eyesa little better and give you some understanding as to why they act and react the way they do.

Peace,
Sandra

[FatherDove]

Funny story: I was in the Dads forums reading and replying when I noticed Dan was also online. I clicked his name, read his information, saw this was the last thread he posted to, and (thinking the topic sounded interesting) I clicked through to this conversation. My wife was reading along with me (she is MotherDove (http://mothering.com/discussions/member.php?s=&action=getinfo&userid=1801), btw) and I commented that I don't usually read all of these long threads and therefore don't reply. So I began casually pressing the Page Down key reading a few words here and there to get the gist. That's when it got interesting.

Before I go to far (or before you reply) please find out about me (http://www.adeler.com/family/sawyer/davidjr.asp) and read some of my previous posts (http://mothering.com/discussions/search.php?s=&action=showresults&searchid=41982), if you have the time.

I am only going to address one person (http://mothering.com/discussions/member.php?s=&action=getinfo&userid=231) directly and only because I have a humorous feeling to share.Something is still strange here.I think I found out what it is NM. When I clicked the reply button I felt like an out-of-work actor who just got a small roll in the hottest soap-opera on television! :rotflmao

I am about to display my opinion for everyone to read in regards to this very sensitive subject. An opinion to which some of you will disagree, some of you will agree, and some of you will wonder if I am ever going to make my point. And that is fine. Hence: my opinion.

Oh, one more thing, this has been one of the most amusing and well discussed threads I have seen in my ten years of Internet life. :thumb

I believe the teens of today are largely and unjustly underestimated. There is also my realization that some people (no, not just teenagers) are naïve and easily influenced while others are cruel and deceptive and still others intelligent and compassionate. Our non-communicative, fast food, me-me-me society has reduced us to human replicates of stereotypical boys, girls, mothers, fathers, Americans, and on, and on. I value free speech, freedom of religion, and the freedom to choose — no matter what the choice. Family is THE most important and influential thing in any persons life. Privacy should remain private. And, sadly, I am not always right.

I believe that teenagers can have great depth of feeling and emotion and those feelings are often translated into sexual desire/drive/curiosity/whatever. This is natural. I think they call it ... what is that word ... oh yes, puberty. This extremely confusing and frustrating period can start as early as 7 or 8 years old in some girls and usually starts between 10 and 15 years for those budding on-time. [Encyclopedia.com (http://www.encyclopedia.com/html/p/puberty.asp)]

Are these feelings and emotions love? Is that really the parents' decision? Teenagers are certainly not the wisest people riding the globe around the sun. Neither is a 28 year old father of a beautiful 9½ month daughter (http://www.adeler.com/family/sawyer/verona.asp). Neither is a 48 year old mother of five. We are never as wise as we will be and there never will be a wisest. I think most of us agree that experience comes with age and is gained through — you guessed it — experiences. These experiences warrant a decision of some sort that will ultimately decide/influence the result of said experience.

This is where it gets tricky. Who is responsible for making that decision? The person involved directly with the situation (i.e. child) or a third party observer who is looking after your best interest (i.e. parent)? I believe there is an old saying that goes something like this: "Learn from your mistakes." Hmm. Your mistakes. Interesting.

I for one learned most of what I know today from the mistakes of others. It's just safer that way. But there were still plenty of mistakes of my own to make. They weren't new mistakes, just new to me. But that is for an entirely different thread [sigh].

I just can't help continued reflection upon that phrase: "learn from your mistakes." It insinuates that we will make mistakes. Almost dooming us to unknown misfortune regardless of our actions or the warnings of others. There more I think about it the more anxiety builds inside of me: "will I know when I make a mistake? will I be able to find the lesson? can anyone really help me?"

My point here is that the conotations of this phrase are woven into our very psyche. There have been times in each of our lives where we have been forced with a difficult decision, made that decision, and lived with the consequences. Without knowing if it was the right thing to do. It's what we do — we're human. The finality of it is that only we, the individual, could make that decision. It was our decision to make and we were the only person qualified to make it.

Our decisions, though, are based largely on the ideals of others. Taken from things we have heard, read, experienced through others, watched, or otherwise witnessed. These teachings from others are the cornerstone of any persons mental foundation and the stimuli for growth. It is those with a sturdy foundation and strong mind that will learn from mistakes — theirs, yours, and mine.

This is where we as parents enter the equation. It is our responsibility to communicate with our children. Constantly challenging their ideals and soliciting their opinions. Continually sharing with them the joys and sorrows of life, the dangers and pleasures of sex, the ideas and arguments of philosophy, the chaos and order of poetry, the left side and the right side and everything in between.

In my most personal opinion, that is the responsibility of the parent: to educate and communicate. If you are confident in your parenting and your relationship with your child, is there really a reason to think they would make the wrong decision? If you are not confident in your parenting and relationship with your child, I fear you have more to worry about then sex talk amongst Internet acquaintances.

Nursing Mother, did you ask your dd why she was participating in that chat? Or whom she was chatting with and how she met them? Or what pleasure does she get from this activity? How often was she participating? And (I do think Dan's question is valid) through which medium was she participating (i.e. ICQ, AIM, MSN, Yahoo!, IRC, public chat room, etc.)?

I have lived on the Internet for the past ten years. And there are a large number of sickos, whackos, crazies, pedophiles, [...insert ommitted adjective...] out there. But you also have to remember that there are also TENS of MILLIONS of other truly good people out there participating in safe, public forums.

Very much like the wonderful community in which you are participating now.

:love

[Dan Frank]

Hooha! A big post! I like big posts (hugs the big post).
(edit: er, Lilyka's big post, not FatherDoves... though I suppose I should hug it too, so as not to be accused of favoritism ;))
ahem. (assumes proper posting decorum)

Alright, first of all, someone please , please , PLEASE enlighten me as to how I misrepresented myself. No one here, except Alexander, who said he was nearly 40, and AutumnMoonfire, who said she was 35, has listed their age in these posts. In another, previous post on the Dads board... I said I have no children. As I said before... is there some rule I'm unaware of that requires me to inform you all if I may be of an age you consider it acceptable to descriminate against?

There is a difference between a sexual fantasy and any, even virtual, form of sexual interaction. I agree that fantasy should stay private. Sexual interaction, on the other hand, which can draw from fantasy, is not the same thing and, in my opinion, acceptable.

Alright Lilyka, just so we're clear, you do realize that whatever valid argument you had is a bit drowned by all the ad hominem you've decided to throw in, right? As much as I will try not to, I think my own rebuttal will have a bit of the same. I apologize in advance, but will chant the age old refrain of "You started it!" if necessary.

While I thank you for believing me, I suspect your motives behind such a statement were more intended to belittle me than to support me. As I have said, personally, 'dirty talk' doesn't much interest me... the opportunity has presented itself, and I have declined. I would much prefer to try out the real thing. But this is really quite unrelated... again, just an ad hominem.

I do not think Nursing Mother to be a bad person, or a bad mother. I believe she may have made a bad choice... When I become a parent, I will no doubt do the same. I don't think I'm 'judging', and if I am, then the verdict certainly isn't too harsh. I spend time in here debating with parents because I plan on being one someday, and because I spend a lot of time online anyway.

Did you intentionally use Weary as if it were Wary, to indicate annoyance with my presence? If so, ignoring me is a surer way to get rid of me than trying to shut me down with insults.

Even stepping into the shower can get you killed. Nothing you do anywhere is completely safe. A parents responsibility is not to keep the kid away from showers, but rather to look inside for soap first, and, for situations where the parent can't, to keep the child informed about soap so they know to look for themselves.

I dont need to know what being a parent is like. I know I'll be a parent like my parents and friends and family, and I know that they aren't at all similar to you. Everyone parents differently. I'm not just disagreeing because im not a parent, I'm disagreeing for the same reason EVERYONE disagrees... because I think that I am right.

Being a woman does not entitle you to emotionally cripple your kid just because you're scared of internet boogymen (no, NM, this is not aimed at you). hey, not to sound sexist, but no woman will ever be hit in the testicles (no, I am not saying this is more painful than childbirth. But it's a unique experience). Perhaps it's due to this particular experience that I think you have faulty logic... or maybe it's because you do.

I have no fantasies of childrearing. Frankly, the prospect kind of scares the crap out of me. I've never seen a prfectly behaved child, and if I did I would immediately call the police, because that kid would no doubt be suffering from serious emotional and physical abuse.

Sounds to me like you were a very optimistic child. Did you do a lot of drugs?

If you really do know more than they do, and more than I do, then perhaps, instead of forcing them to do your bidding for their own good, you could TELL them what you know (gasp). That way, by the time they're your age, they'll know twice as much as you do now. THey can do the same, and in a few generations your descendants will be the smartest people on earth.

If my working with kids all the time and spending several days a week watching my nephew, or the fact that I AM a teen and know a lot of them, does not grant me any credibility on the topic of teenagers whatsoever, why on earth would the fact that you happen to work with them grant you any? That, dear lady, is a double standard.

I have never been a waiter, but I still criticize them when they screw up my order or spill soup in my lap. I have never run the country, but I still think Bush is a freakin moron.

(my apologies to Nursing Mother for using her, but I am carrying on Lilyka's example. I do not mean any insult.)
So NM is automatically full of wisdom because she is a mother? What about those parents who werent involved? Were they right, too, just because they procreated? What about a mother who beats her kids with a steel rod when they talk back to her? Is she also full of wisdom? Obviously, some forms of parenting are damaging. I maintain that denying a child access to a useful tool is damaging (obviously not as much so as the above... but you get the idea). Overprotection may be more healthy than ignoring a kid, but can anyone guess what is more healthy than Overprotection AND Underprotection? I'll give you a hint... it's the suffixed word.

No one but Barbara has presented any actual evidence that 'dirty talk' is harmful, and I doubt even she would classify it as catastrophic.

Why don't you offer sympathy?

So now I'm an Idiot, eh? I think I can contain my retort, and just let that blatant insult stand on its own, if it can.

Now, because my post, too, was long, and because I, too, want to act as though an obviously literate person is a buffoon who needs a list to understand things...

1) Being a parent does not automatically make one correct, or else fathers who rape their children are A-OK.

2) I did not misrepresent myself. THe only possible explanations I have found are a) I registered on April Third, 04-03, which could perhaps appear to be 43 to someone who was reeeeally skimming. b) Alexander, another male who supports teenage girls talking dirty, said that he was nearly 40. Either way, only poor observational skills could misrepresent me in either case.

3) If they thought I was too stupid to buy them myself, my parents would have bought me condoms a year or two ago, just in case. My dad would prefer it if I stayed away from drugs and alcohol because of his bad experiences with both, my mom just wants me to expiriment with someone who will be able to call an ambulance in an emergency, and my brother wants me to wait till I'm 18 before I smoke pot because he is convinced it stunts one's growth. (he waited and is 6'3"... his friends all started very young, and are in the 4'10"-5'8" range). I know pretty well why they act the way they do... they tell me. I only rarely suffer from the "Oh (wail), my mom is so wacked! She won't let me go chill with my peeps, yo!" teenage affliction.

Lilyka, perhaps next time you wish to discuss something with me, you could refrain from the insults and just make your points.'

Edited for additional clarity (thanks Alexander... posted this around 2 AM, so I was bound to make mistakes)

[Dan Frank]

Fatherdove... I will take bets that more of these mom's agree with what you've said, even though we agree. (curses his lack of eloquence)

(sighs)

Anyway, I actually wanted to post to apologize to Nursing Mother. I still think she made a bad move in banning her kids from chatrooms, but my posts have gone a bit beyond that, and I just want to say again that I do not think you are a horrible parent (not that the opinion of an anonymous teenager would much impact your life... but still), just that I disagree with you on this one. My posts have, for the most part, not been directed at you, but to everyone here or the specific people I named.

Now then... let's see what tomorrow holds, eh?

[Alexander]

FatherDove,

Brill!

The only thing I would add to our role as parents is that we should allow (help?) our children to fail non-catastrophically, but shield them from the errors that they can not recover from.

Unfortunately, this is were I think parents draw the line much to close to "my baby can't handle this", instead of "I am here when it goes wrong".

I think this is very likely because parents feel themselves not able to deal with or cope with the problems.

The "sealing the lid by banning" method of parenting smacks of re-lived insecurities of a parents' own teenage years.

Lilyka, you said:

yes I would be uncofortable with that to because I feel sharing those kinds of secrets even with people whose face you can see is still risky because you don't know if you can trust them to keep such juicy information a secret and before you know it it is all around school and some little teen preditor

I don't know what to say! If there are predetures around, now is the best time to learn to deal with them while they are under your protection. Leave it till after they leave home, what tools do they have?

Also, friends end to share without spilling the beans. No? Then learning who your friend's are is a priceless lesson at this age.

a

[Alexander]

Originally posted by Dan Frank
Hooha! A big post! I like big posts (hugs the big post).
Snip
That way, by the time they're your age, they'll know twice as much as you do now. THey can do the same, and in a few generations your ancestors will be the smartest people on earth.


Yuk, such long posts (though I know mine are too sometimes!). Let's to rant less, speak more.

BTW, the word you are looking for here is not ancestors, but decendents. (If you decide to edit your post, I'll willingly remove this comment.)

Generally though, an articulate (and, for me anyway) amusing post, hitting points squarely on the head. You could be Sudbury Model Child (http://www.sudval.org/books.html). FatherDove too, by the sounds of his post lean in this direction of empowering the child through experience and education.

a

PS [Uncle tone] could we try to scale down the "ranty tone" rather than escalate it. Let's get on with the debate.

[/Uncle tone] ;)

a

[Dan Frank]

Thank you, Alexander, your posts are short, to the point, and always make me smile. :)

Even though I like you, I think I'm going to have to continue to use you as a scapegoat, because everyone seems to think I claimed to be a middle aged man... only thing I found remotely of that sort was when you said you were nearly 40! Obviously, since the two of us are so similar (y'know, or writing styl... oh wait, no. Well, the lengths of our p.... oh wait, no... well, our names sure look sim... oh... huh... um... oooh, we're both MEN! Well, no wonder they confused the two of us, we're practically identical!), they mistook you for me.

Those of you who suspect this post was nothing but another ploy to up my posts ... you are correct. I came very close to adding a less-than-productive remark about the post-levels of some of my detractors, and the fact that, despite their low posts, they aren't second-guessed and insulted every 10 minutes. But I restrained myself. Then, obviously, I decided to go ahead and present the remark in a slightly less insulting, impersonal manner.

Ain't I devious?

[Alexander]

Since you're on, why don't you read your PM?

a

[Alexander]

LOL

Stop that! I'm ill. laughing hurts!

As for upping the posts....

Yes, you are a nit. You should have written the post and let people think about the parts, reply, you rely (with additional material), etc...

Much more....civilized ?

At any rate, this technique prevents 2 things.

1) people hitting their heads on a concrete wall post.

2) prevents the thread from freying.

Hope this helps

a

(read your PM yet?)

off to cuddle the kids to sleep. B back later

[Els' 3 Ones]

OK, boys, time for another female pov.

First of all, what exactly is NM's dd going to suffer from by not "chatting"? Not many of us grew up with that. I daresay millions of children today are not chatting, right? I do agree with many of the parenting models you all are tossing around but fail to see how this applies to taking away a chat room. We are not talking about taking away the www and all the wonderful info available. And there are other forms of communication.

Also, read again what NM said they discussed. First off, Dan, it was verbalizing fantasies and not actual cybersex. It also involved beastiality and such. I don't think a 15 yo is prepared to discuss or fantasize about the aberrations of sex........especially in a chat room.

So, again, I'm asking "how is taking away the chat going to ruin this teens life"?

[Nursing Mother]

Holy moly, I woke up at 6:00 to this! I love it BTW. Had no idea this thread would progress.

FatherDove, I am glad you are enjoying this "soap opera";) First you aged me about 7 years, ouch! I am 41

.Nursing Mother, did you ask your dd why she was participating in that chat? Or whom she was chatting with and how she met them? Or what pleasure does she get from this activity? How often was she participating? And (I do think Dan's question is valid) through which medium was she participating (i.e. ICQ, AIM, MSN, Yahoo!, IRC, public chat room, etc.)?

Of course I asked her, yes I was aware of who she was chatting with but didn't know them personally. (kids from school)
I am sure it was quite pleasurable. She did it TWICE. I believe it was a public chat room.

It really isn't that big a deal now. We talked with her, she understands the rules. No anger, shes not mad etc. Thats why I'm getting such a kick out of this discussion, for me its been over, but I just love what everyone is saying whether I agree or not.

Dan, Being a woman does not entitle you to emotionally cripple your kid just because you're scared of internet boogymen

Emotionally cripple! Give me a break. What about all of us who never had chat? I believe kids want boundries, rules, etc. You are not crippling your child if you say no to something, or make a rule. Dan you just keep being yourself, you're a smart guy, but lack abit of adult and parental "wisdom". Don't worry though that will come and only come with TIME.

Lilyka, thank you so much for your insight.

Alex, you crack me up. (In a good way of course):)

Chanley, many blessings to you, we are on the same track here. From one mother to another:2.

[Alexander]

Originally posted by Nursing Mother

Dan,
you're a smart guy, but lack abit of adult and parental "wisdom". Don't worry though that will come and only come with TIME.


Er, this comes off as really condesending, and just what we don't want.

Even if you feel this way, you don't have to, in a public forum, belittle someone by pointing out their age, rather than what they say.

So please, everybody, don't slip.

a

[Celestial]

Wow!

I've been following this thread for some time now.

The only thing I have to add is that sometimes, we as parents set up our children for a fall. It's called a self fullfilling prophecy. In my experience, as a child and a parent, these self fullfilling prophecies come about when we are ABSOLUTELY CONVINCED that if our child does "x", "y" is the inevitable result. We tell our children this. We reinforce this notion through conversations with other adults that our children over hear, and through our actions. In essence, we turn OUR fear into our children's reality. They see no other possible outcome than the one we are so afraid of! I'm not saying this is always the case, but that often, we limit the potential positive outcomes of an experience by focusing on the one negative outcome we fear.

We can also void whatever lessons could be learned from an action because we say "I told you so." or "I knew this would happen!".

Does this make any sense?

I've screwed up some things, trying to avoid the outcomes I'm afraid of. My oldest is 9. I want to parent differently than my mom did. And I do, but it has come with it's own, different set of mistakes. And hopefully, in the end, as my children grow, they'll be able to understand my shortcomings, learn from them, grow from them, and move on.

[Nursing Mother]

Alex, that is not condecending at all IMO, sorry. I have already said I am impressed with Dan and his adult use of terminology,(and he sure spells better then me, or has a great spell-check), but that does not create "wisdom". Wisdom comes only through growth, experience and time. A 16 year old just hasn't had a lot of time yet to develope it IMO. Not saying a 16 year old can't be smart or intellectual and have great opinions. I respect what he says, but I don't see a lot of "wisdom" in his thoughts concerning this situation.

Hey, no offence Dan, really!;)

Until you have lived life and experienced the reality of children, I feel it would be hard for anyone to be truly objective in this situation.

[dharma]

My parents were the epitome of the self fulfilling prophecy people.

Here are some of the standard things I heard:

History always repeats itself.

Mastubation is disgusting.

Never touch yourself.

Sex is a misadventure

yadda yadda yadda

In our family sex was off limits. It was not discussed, as a teen if I stepped over a sexual line so to speak, I was punished and shamed (not at all suggesting that is what NM did) and guess what ladies..........I was pregnant at 17!

Had my parents been open about sex in a healthy and non judgemental way, had they supplied me with knowledge rather than their own internal fear, I wouldn't have been. Had they not shared every mistake I made with the general public, maybe I wouldn't have been as rebellious.

I have step daughters and daughters and sons (as well as my self for a guide) and do not fool yourselves in to thinking that 15 is a bit young. It is dead on for most of the womyn and girls I know. My youngest step daughter was very sheltered and my husband and his x wife, talked with her about sex and such but she was not allowed to experiment with her sexual self at all and she went CRAZY with sex at the age of 16-17. She is 20 now and sees the reasons why she was this way. Not because she had a healthy sexual appetite, but because sex was the forbidden fruit.

I agree with Dan and I think it is refreshing to hear a teenager's opinion on this as isn't it teenagers we are trying to figure out?

I am a Mother, I am 29 and I am not in the majority here but those are my thoughts. When my daughters are older I will not ever suggest that they should save themselves for marriage as I think I would be setting myself up for disappointment and as much as I love my husband I can't imagine that being my only experience with sex.

With that said each of us has to do what we think is right for our children, however I do not think we should dismiss Dan just for being a teen. He may be able to provide us with some honest insight that we wouldn't normally have.

[barbara]

Kudos FatherDove and Alexander!
Celestial, You are right on with your self-fullfilling prophecy theory. As parents of small children, as well as teenagers and adult children, we will do well to remember to treat them as the people we know they are/can be. They will live up to it!!! (or down to it as the case may be!)

Now, about online chat.
My sons (both over 18 now) spent some time on AIM and in chatrooms. They found them lacking and time consuming. Both choose to discontinue on thier own and spend their time more constructively. We knew nothing about the internet at that time and so never gave them any imput ourselves except to say things like "don't you have something better to do?" They came to their own conclusions about it because they have good dicission making skills and have learned to question and evaluate things for themselves.
My son-in-law, on the other hand, had some real problems in this area, (i.e. obssesive behavior, etc.) His brothers and sisters still do. Their parents making decisions for them has made them sneaky and even more obsessive about internet relationships, as well as real life ones. Ok, maybe they are an unhealthy and extream example, but it has shown us how not allowing children to make their own decisions creates rebellious and unhealthy behavior.... and adults that are decision-making crippled!

My point is that we need to educate ourselves and our children and allow them to make their mistakes and learn from them. I say this having also experienced a teenage daughter who made some really bad mistakes dispite our guidance. We all still feel that we could not have protected her any more than we did from those mistakes. Perhaps by making them at a young age she will have truely learned from them and not spend a lifetime of repeating the same mistakes over and over as so many people do. I don't know.....I don't have any answers. This parenting thing is hard! I just wanted to share my experience.

(BTW, NM this is not directed in anyway at you. I think you did the right thing for your family and it sounds like you have a wonderful relationship with your daughter!)

[Nursing Mother]

I agree, and no one is dismissing Dan. Just the words "emotionally crippling" because you don't allow chat, to me sounds immature. There is just so much out there in the world to discover through books, literature, types of media, that a teen does NOT need chat, and it is certainly is not emotionally crippling to go without.

BTW, dharma, I was also raised a bit like you, not quite so severe though. I never ended up pregnant, but did determine with my own children I would be open, honest, and "real" about sexuality issues. Both dh and I have made good on this. My kids know more about sexuality then most. But they know the truth about it, not the myths and jokes that a lot of my teens hear at school. They know facts, morals, rights and wrongs, they know what we as parents expect of them concerning sexual issues. No topic is off limits in our house. So if some of you think I seem to be a repressed, naive, sexually unaware person, that is not true. We have talked about masturbation, oral sex, teen-age sex, birth-control, aids, STD's, homosexuality, pregnancy, sex and drugs, marital sex, biological sex, abortion, pornography, internet porn, addictions, you name it, we've discussed it. So I come back to the conclusion, that my children are not being crippled in any way by not learning and exploring "sexual issues" on chat-lines.

They are allowed to talk on the phone as much as they want, hang-out with their friends (ds didn't get home until 1:00 last night, but thats another story:)).They both( my older kids) have healthy social lives, but I will not be naive and ignorant enough to not realize the perversion and temptation that is put upon our teens at a young age in this overly sexual culture of ours. Not to mention the mixed messages the media and culture gives our kids.(which btw are different with girls then with boys) Our culture expects different roles (sexually) from our girls, then boys, again, probably another topic.

[Els' 3 Ones]

I think this subject keeps getting way off track........

I think sex discussion is very healthy and necessary to maturation. What I don't think is healthy is being exposed to all there is by the age of 16. And I don't mean just something different from the missionary position, I mean the hard, explicit, fetish, abberant stuff that is available very easily on the www. I think a "chatroom" can take someone farther than they want to go in a short time.

Conversation irl between a group of friends would be more tempered, don't you think?

I don't write well so maybe I'm not clear.

I don't have a problem with my children (who are still very young) exploring themselves, their sexual identity, as they are ready and irl. I do have a problem with that being done in a public forum on the www including people you don't or barely know irl. And including those people who are purposely misrepresenting themselves.

This thread was not started about what to tell your children about sex, was it? Why does it keep going there? I think NM did a good thing to give parents a heads up to what is going on in chatrooms. I can't believe the number of parents I know irl who choose not to be aware of what porn is available just by surfing. There are definitely things I don't want my children to see until they are of an age. KWIM? Again, I'm not talking about just something outside of the missionary................

[Snow]

ITA
I haven't responded for a while because this whole thread became incredibly derailed. It's not about lack of communication/knowlege, obviously.

[Nursing Mother]

Excellent point Els, I just wondered that also after my last post. I was thinking, "why did I write that, I don't have to defend myself" This was about a chat line, not how "sexually aware" our children are. It just seemed things kind of changed about 10-15 posts ago. I guess it all took a different direction! Just wanted to add though, that once my older kids hit public school, I knew I needed to start talking fast, because some of the things they were telling me about what the kids said and stuff were so "wrong" and full of myths, and uninformed information. A wise parent also brings the information at that childs level not to overwhelm them with to many facts.

So be it, you all can keep this discussion going and I will tune in, but as far as I am concerned this chat-line issue for me anyway is done and overwith. Dd is happily exploring other means of communication:) NM

[Celestial]

Els,
You are right! The problem seems to be that often this topic would go hand in hand with the other topic: discussing sex with your children.

Ducking out of the thread now.

Oh wait! Before I duck. NM, I remember from another thread that you are very open with your children. I think you yourself would admit that one does not often find someone of your political and religious beliefs who *IS* that open (in general). KWIM? Probably putting my foot in my mouth here. Heck, for that matter, MOst people I know don't have enough frank, open discussions with their kids, regardless of political or religious affiliation.

WE need a sighing smiley, or one that has a foot in its mouth! I'd use it all of the time.

[lilyka]

>>He lists his occupation as professional loafer. His homepage is www.nonexistent.com. <<

Ok So I did screw up the part about you misrepresenting your self, (and I do apologize for that,)but your profile was vauge and misleading and you weren't terribly quick to explain yourself. The nature of this type of communication sorta demands that you explain where you are comeing from. Perhaps it would have saved everyone time and frustration and a saved you from harsh judgment if you had explained yourself in your first post. It makes much more sence now. knowing that it came form a teenager with no children it is totally unoffensive to me.
Alexander can say whatever he wants and get away with it because he is a parent, he practices what he preaches, and he has shown himself to be very intellegent and posses a lot of wisdom in the field of childrearing. His insights on childrens education are far too valuble to me to pick fights over the things we disagree on.

>>There is a difference between a sexual fantasy and any, even virtual, form of sexual interaction. I agree that fantasy should stay private. Sexual interaction, on the other hand, which can draw from fantasy, is not the same thing and, in my opinion, acceptable.<<

We will never agree on anything in this catagory so I will discuss it no further than to say I believe the only safe place to discuss faniticies or have any sort of sexual interaction is within the confines of marraige.

>>Alright Lilyka, just so we're clear, you do realize that whatever valid argument you had is a bit drowned by all the ad hominem you've decided to throw in, right? <<

Yes I am aware, but it was one in the morning and I was freaking tired and the sleepier I get the more I prattle on. I believe I apologized for it in my first post.

>>As much as I will try not to, I think my own rebuttal will have a bit of the same. I apologize in advance, but will chant the age old refrain of "You started it!" if necessary.<<
Fair enough

>>While I thank you for believing me, I suspect your motives behind such a statement were more intended to belittle me than to support me. As I have said, personally, 'dirty talk' doesn't much interest me... the opportunity has presented itself, and I have declined. <<

Perhaps I was snippy but it wasn't meant to belittle you. I t was a rather nuetral comment. As I said earlier the post makes much more sense coming from a teenager. It seems perfectly logical that a mother forbidding her child to do something you enjoy (chat rooms of any sort)would seem unfair and stone aged.
I apologize for my comment about you wanting in on it. that was out of line and I will edit my post to remove it.

>>Did you intentionally use Weary as if it were Wary, to indicate annoyance with my presence? If so, ignoring me is a surer way to get rid of me than trying to shut me down with insults. <<

I am not entirerly sure what your talking about here. But then again I am tired from staying up to late on the computer last night. Culd it h ave been a typo (incase you didn't motice I had a few dozen)

>>Being a woman does not entitle you to emotionally cripple your kid just because you're scared of internet boogymen
I am not saying it does but I hardly feel being a little protective and involved is emotionally crippling.

>>hey, not to sound sexist, but no woman will ever be hit in the testicles (<<
Just one more reason I am glad to be a girl :D

>>Sounds to me like you were a very optimistic child. Did you do a lot of drugs? <<

I have never taken drugs, not even once. I had an abusive, poverty stricken childhood with emotionally unavailable parents who told me on a regular basis how they wish I had never been born. I tried to kill myself for the first time when I was nine. I am a pretty optomistic person now though. I left the day I graduated and never looked back. Fortunately I had a few loving adults who stepped in when I was about 12 and guided mne through my teenyears but I still suffered misreably from the knowledge that my parents didn't care about me.

>>If you really do know more than they do, and more than I do, then perhaps, instead of forcing them to do your bidding for their own good, you could TELL them what you know (gasp). That way, by the time they're your age, they'll know twice as much as you do now. THey can do the same, and in a few generations your descendants will be the smartest people on earth.<<

Nice theory but it has flaws. First of all I do explain why I have the rules I have. However they consitantly do things I would prefer they not do and get hurt, hurt others nd suffer consequences they are not ready for. They are children. They do that. i did it as a child and stilloccaisionally do it. I can't always count on my children to make good descisions. I didn't lways make good descisions and neither have my friends, neither did the people I didn't hang out with. There is always some temptation that leads a person to believe the lie that I can do this better than the other person/get away with it/not suffer the consequenses.

>>If my working with kids all the time and spending several days a week watching my nephew, or the fact that I AM a teen and know a lot of them, does not grant me any credibility on the topic of teenagers whatsoever, why on earth would the fact that you happen to work with them grant you any? That, dear lady, is a double standard. <<

perhaps you know a lot about teenagers but you don't have an objective view point because you are one. I think being a married mom is great because that is all I have ever known. At the same time I can't discuss being a single mom like I know what I am talking about because I have never been one.

You have been a teenager but never an adult. I have been a teen and adult and work out of my experiance not to gain experiance. My work involves imparting knowledge, sharing wisdom and watching the results. Sometimes beautiful and happy, sometimes catostphic. Not my choice though. I don't make desicions for them and I can't tell them what they can and can't do. I am not thier mother. I can empathize with thier pain and offer comfort but never will I say "you poor thing you didn't deserve this" when thier faulty actions, the ones they had plenty of warning about, was the cause of thier pain. I will help them find solutions, make restitution and apologize to those they hurt, and help them get back on solid footing and get right with God and parents but I will never pretend or let them preted that they didn't bring it on themselves. And I am not opposed to saying "I told you that this would be the resultof your actions" I won't rub it in or say nanny nanny boo boo though, thats just mean.

>>I have never been a waiter, but I still criticize them when they screw up my order or spill soup in my lap. I have never run the country, but I still think Bush is a freakin moron. <<

I have been a server before and can truely sympathize in these situations. Instead of judging I remember that all presidents have had thier faults and try to focus on the good things he does.

>>So NM is automatically full of wisdom because she is a
mother? <<
I know nursing mother well enough to know she is full of wisdom and I am greatful that she shares it with me. I am smart enough to sit up and take note when she speaks. I wasn't just assuming and it certainly hasn't been an automatic reaction.

>>Overprotection may be more healthy than ignoring a kid, but can anyone guess what is more healthy than Overprotection AND Underprotection?<<

I am thinking balance but it doesn't have a suffix. anyway. . . We all make bad calls sometimes and Iwould rather err (sp?) on the side of caution.

I am not saying being a mother instantly makes you mother teresea but it does give most women a great feeling of responsibility and protection. Men and women parent differently. It is just that way. A good book to read on the topic is "Mothering and Fathering" by Tine Thevenin. That is what I was getting at. My husband agrees too, that because I am the mother I have a stronger deeper bond than he will ever have. Fortunately he isn't the jelouse type and instead focus on being the dad I could never be.

>>So now I'm an Idiot, eh?<<

I *NEVER* called you an idiot. I said "Any idiot can pretend they have all the answers but a truely intellegent person will seek the counsel of the wise. " When I said this I was talking about everyone. This had little to do with the topic but is very true and good advise none the less. (it also answers the question about why I don't offer sympathy) Where you fall on the idiot /wisdom spectrum is entirerly up to you and not for me to judge.


>>Now, because my post, too, was long, and because I, too, want to act as though an obviously literate person is a buffoon who needs a list to understand things...<<

This is not what I meant to imply. I often wonder about and lose my train of thought and even in proof reading I think I have made my point because my mind automatically fills in the blank. The kids I work with are often left giving me a blank stare with the question "Where exactly were you going with that?" I always start out times together with "If something I say seems hurtful, illogical, dangeling, completely un-understandable or just plain wierd please tell me and ask me to explain." They are quite used to it by now. Also, I was tired I wasn't even sure I had made a point (much less the one I intended to make) Also a lot of times when I see a rather windy post I scroll to the bottom in hopes they summerize..

>>1) Being a parent does not automatically make one correct, or else fathers who rape their children are A-OK. <<
Duh

>>2) I did not misrepresent myself. THe only possible explanations I have found are a) I registered on April Third, 04-03, which could perhaps appear to be 43 to someone who was reeeeally skimming. b) Alexander, another male who supports teenage girls talking dirty, said that he was nearly 40. Either way, only poor observational skills could misrepresent me in either case. <<

agreed

>>Lilyka, perhaps next time you wish to discuss something with me, you could refrain from the insults and just make your
points.' <<

Again sorry I was so snippy. It is rather uncharacteristic of me and apologize.

And so as not to bore everyone here if you feel you need more apologies or need clarification instead of responding here please private message me. I don't find our disscussion completely unenjoyable but it is completely off topic at this point (for which I take full responsibility)]

Sandra

[lilyka]

I fouund the Weary. I meant *leary* which is probably still spelled wrong. but makes more sense.

[dharma]

You are a patient, wise, eloquent, gentle Mama and I have a admiration for you inspired by your post to Dan. Off thread I know, but I had to tell you that.

[Nursing Mother]

WoW!! Lilyka, I would not have kept my cool as well as you did. I am so impressed with how you handled it all. BTW thanks for defending me:p (sent you a PM)

[FatherDove]

Yesterday on "Teen Chatroom Sex" ... hehehe, sorry, couldn't resist.

I am glad to hear that you have resolved this issue with communication and understanding, NM! :bouncy

I knew I forgot something! The events and persons described within, unless specified specifically by name, are fictitious and any relation between real persons is totally coincidental. [back to our normally scheduled post]

My final(HA!) comment is about the Internet and communication. Having grown up with microscopic letters, numbers, and symbols as fingerprints, RAM for memory, and 1' and 0's as a form of communication and expression, I truly believe that computers AND the Internet are the most valuable forms of communication available today — for everyone. You can browse essays of famous philosophers, read about International events and opinions, laugh and cry with friends and strangers (some of whom you will never see, hear, or even remember), listen to a poetry reading from Japan, a soccer game from England, a talkshow from Brazil, voice your opinion without being interrupted(!), and be inspired to contribute to real people in real life through virtual communities.

It is a form of communication that breeds ideas, debate, creativity, and individuality. A place where you can be you and no one can stop it — if you choose.

And that is just it, we all have choices while we are online. Like was proposed earlier, have you ever stumbled into a porn chat room? Probably not. In ten years I have never come so close as to stand outside of one much less stumble in one. Sure, we have all seen the popups with explicit nudity, horribly graphic images, and the inticement to "chat live" or "see live webcams." But have you ever clicked through? No. You made the decision not to based on your views and opinions about the subject.

That is what the Internet is all about. Choices. Hundreds of them on every page it seems. They may seem trivial, artificial, or irrelevant since they are not "real". That is ludicrous. Look at what the decision of one young girl has done to dozens of people. A real girl, on a real computer, making real decisions, with other real people.

Let's face it, the Internet IS reality.

::stepping down from soap-box::

I just don't want people to come away from this thread thinking that only perverts, voyeurs, and pedophiles use chat rooms. They do exist in chat rooms, discos, movie theatres, pool halls, high schools, and parks and they are a real danger; however, millions of real people share their real lives with others ever millisecond of the day.

To take that away from a child is a shame.

[I][not directed to any one person]

[Nursing Mother]

Good Gosh!! How did we ever survive without Internet..:) Uummhh....To this date we have 2 laptops in this house, and 2 desk-tops. With 5 children they are always being used (except for chats:D )

Yes, computers are a reality, I personally love to search the internet. But computers have also opened up a dangerous access to many things that can harm our children. Parents MUST BE AWARE!!

[FatherDove]

The 100th reply to this thread.

Couldn't resist. ;)

[Els' 3 Ones]

Originally posted by FatherDove

To take that away from a child is a shame.




Take what away? A chat room?

That is a shame ?:scratch

[Nursing Mother]

Send them to the Library, I say:jammin Oh wait, can't do that computers there too:crying

[FatherDove]

El: Yes. A chat room, email, discussion forum, or whatever. Most generally I was simply referring to self expression, in this case specifically the Internet.

I am not saying that I want my child to participate in perverted sex talk on the Internet. There is SO much more available through chat rooms. But what is good for one family may not be for another. I am by no means saying taking away the chat room/computer/whatever is wrong — just different then what my approach would be (which by default may make it right ;) )

Besides, does taking away the use of the computer/email/chat/whatever solve the problem? I don't think that any here would agree that kids only talk about sex in chat rooms. Taking away the ability for a child to explore these ideals in the comfort of their own home may push them to find it elsewhere.

Would you prefer you child participate in explicit chat rooms at a friend's house? You wouldn't be there to ask he/r where s/he is going if they are not there to ask....

[Snow]

*sigh* heading back to hM

[Els' 3 Ones]

Give me lots of self expression! I just don't see that "no chat" is going to harm that. Very early on in this thread I said I have never been in a "chat room". I have no desire to go into one either. And I certainly don't feel like I'm missing something vital to self expression, kwim? What time I don't spend on the computer is filled with talking faces in my life. And it is very full (my life).

For the record, again, the thread is discussing a chatroom. Not the internet or IM'ng friends or email or a discussion board (which I love ;) ) or researching Japanese poetry.

We all are aware of how the brain reacts in real time interaction vs staring at a screen, right? I'd rather the sex discussion take place with friends, face to face. The way I did it. With someone I'm close to not an invisible room full of people. The point I'm getting at is that in a chat, invisible, you can be/say many things you would not in person; thus I think there is a strong possibility many children/teens could get drawn much farther than they are really ready to go.

Or do you think reading/seeing everything is OK for a 15yo? Once they are "in" the room and reading.............or following a link to see something.........

I think there is a reason Hustler is not sold to minors and movies have ratings.

Why can't I rate my child's computer?

Yes, I do think putting limits is helpful to the problem. What exactly is my role as a parent? When I sense danger what should I do? I think there are times when the risk far outweighs the benefit.

What benefit is a chatroom, anyway?

[FatherDove]

El: You are correct on all points.

I have never stated that you can not or should not rate your childs computer. Simply stating that I would approach it differently. I have stated, also in earlier posts, that I was practically born on the Internet (well, so I was 18 years late, not my fault!). Our perspectives are obviously quite different and so there is no surprise our methods are as well.

And I comprehend that the specificity of this conversation was about chat rooms and not email, et. al.. I was broadening the scope as from my perspective they are all the same. Everyone knows that you can "hide" your true identity online. There is no denying that fact. Does that make it more dangerous? I don't think so. No one can reach through my monitor and force me to do something. A few well placed words will not land me in the back of their car en route to a horrific fate. But a walk down the wrong street, through the wrong park and at the wrong time...

Perhaps we think the Internet, pardon me, chat rooms are so saturated with perverts because that is all we hear about in the news. Just because the news only reports the bad things doesn't mean there is no good.

As far as the benefit of the chat room, well, the benefit is what you make it. I benefit from chat rooms I use for technical support, online gaming, discussing recipes, chatting with friends across the country and the world, and the random conversation with strangers from Turkey, India, Egypt, Siberia, England, or dozens of other countries. The benefit I receive is the connection with other people of all types. I learn something from everyone I chat with and avoid the losers who are just there to get their "rocks off."

If you don't use them they are of no benefit. Obviously. And you are correct, not a single thing is missing from your self expression by not using chat rooms. Because, as you have clearly stated, you have no desire to use them. Suppose you did have that desire and the access was denied? Would you feel differently?

I am also not insinuating that you simply allow your children to "do as they feel." That would be insanity! They need guidance, education, and communication. Personally, IMHO, I do not think children need censorship. If they know what is "right" and "wrong" and have the ability to think for themselves they will do the censoring automatically. Of course, every person is different. Thank goodness!

Do I think that seeing/reading everything is OK for a 15yo? Well, rather frankly, yes, I do. Does that mean I am going to send my child to porn chat rooms or video shops to "educate" him/her? NO! But if the child is showing an interest in exploring those subjects, I do not feel it is my duty to stand in the way. I will express my opinions and ideals to my child and trust they will make the proper choice. I will talk with them and listen to their questions and comments, exchange ideas, and be as open as possible to their decision. That may be a mistake but I am still learning too.

And hey, if it makes you feel better, I don't have a teenager to take care of at the moment. So perhaps I don't really know what I am talking about. Give me another 14 years, maybe my tune will change.

Maybe not.

[Clarity]

This has been up on the "active threads" list so long I HAD to see what was going on. I think if I were 16 again, my geeky self would have a big crush on Dan! :love Did no one else find it odd we spend all this time educating people not to reveal their personal details online and then Dan's still getting flack for it (most recently by Lilyka?) And most moms would holler if their daughters listed too much real info in a profile.


And to pretend I had something useful to add...yes, a grasp of the technology and a computer in public parts of the house is so important. But, chat rooms, particularly anonymous ones seems a safer outlet to me for exploration and questioning of all kinds including sexual than a lot of other options that might include being in unsafe situations in real life, or sharing things with people at school that might get one labeled or stigmatized. (as a slut, for example, or as gay.) I have a lot of other thoughts on this, but at least I have more time before this'll come up at my house!

Clarity

[Sierra]

Well, this has been an interesting discussion, and it has evolved into several discussions that are under an umbrella of issues. I would have asked that we take this to another thread, but NM has stated that she has received the support that she needs and resolved her issue, so at this point I don't really see a need to interupt the flow here. At some point it might be valuable to close this thread for length reasons, but we'll cross that bridge when we come to it.

As for my thoughts, there are so many things that have come up in the past few days in this conversation that I wish I had a whole day to just talk about all the little issues with all of you. Since I don't have that time, I did want to address something that I've been thinking about quite a lot in the last few days of the discussion.

There is an underlying thread of thoughts that has infuenced the nature of this discussion. The undercurrent has been the idea that the value of shared experiences is that they bring shared understanding. The idea that, without being a mother, you couldn't possibly understand the issues involved in mothering someone, etc.

This is an interesting concept. The thing is, shared experience does not necessarily lead to shared understanding or shared conclusions. Despite our shared experiences of womanhood or motherhood, I could argue until I was blue in the face with another mother about issues like spanking, crying it out, the use of birth control, or any number of issues, but we would still have a different understanding of our shared experience and we would still have different conclusions.

Now I can see where people come from with the thought. The thing about parenthood, and for that matter, almost all of life, is that our experiences sometimes influence the learning process. The notion of "shared experience=shared understanding" has to do with this concept. For example, when we learn from the experience of motherhood the depth our love can truly go, we wonder who would not conclude, after experiencing this kind of love, that protecting our children is one of the most important jobs of parenthood. When we see others choosing different places or ways to draw the line of protection for their children, we wonder how they could be so different.

The learning process, though, is often also influenced a great deal by our preconceived notions, our ideas, and our ideals.

My neices (4 and 8) are getting into a lot of trouble lately by hitting their dogs. The other day I was over visiting, and my 4 year old neice walked up to my dog, told her to do something (just said a sentence there is no way my dog could understand), and then hit her when my dog didn't comply (because she didn't understand). My BIL ran outside and started yelling at his daughter about it, and then he came back inside and said to us, "They've been doing that so much lately. It's because we spank her, and so she thinks it's okay to hit when they don't do what she wants." I was nodding and smiling, thinking, "Yeah, this guy has finally got it," when he sums it up with, "I wouldn't have it any other way, though. Sometimes those girls need a good whack." I was shocked!

It is entirely possible that even a person who shares your experience of womanhood or parenthood wont have the same life understanding you do.

Another thing that has been on my mind as I read through this discussion is that the idea that with age comes wisdom only gives us part of the picture. There is a wisdom that comes with experience, and there is a wisdom that comes with non-experience. They are both good in different ways and have different ideal uses, but it is unfortunate that so few people acknowledge the latter.

I also find it a shame that there is an assumption that it is possible to know how much experience a person has had based on his or her age. I have certainly known kids who, at 16, have experienced more than their 20 and 30-something neighbors. Some people live very little. I don't like to assume anything about anyone beyond what I can get out of what they are saying to me. I think that there are some valid points that have come up in this conversation from people who are known to us to be younger, as well as people who are known to us to be older. I know that my ideas about what are and aren't valid points are somewhat biased because of my own life experience, but it would be hard not to notice that there are indeed good points coming from all directions.

When I first started posting on these boards, I was a teen. No one ever asked me my age, and I have received many emails over the years thanking me for my "wisdom." I'm now quickly approaching my mid-twenties, and I appreciate that I have almost always been heard for what I'm saying.

I guess if I had shared my age, it would have been possible for me to know I was making a pretty good argument when people would have used my age as a part of their argument. When people can't make constructive arguments about what you are saying, they tend to default to comments about who you are.

On the other hand, I came to these boards for support, and since these are support boards, that's helped me build relationships of mutual trust with other members of these boards. I didn't respond to NM's post because I would approach things differently than she would, and she didn't write her post in search for opinions (I think that is pretty clear in the tone of her posts). She came for support. I'm glad she was able to find that here.

I guess, Dan, that I was suspicious of you when you came here because your first post, on these boards that are clearly intended primarily as support boards, was a bit inflamatory. It was basically a critical look at the action a mother had posted about in search of support. It wasn't in a new thread. It was in NM's thread, and as a response to what she'd said. These boards are very much about the community, compared to other boards, and not only had you not posted an introduction, but you did not even begin your post with an intro. These are all red flags for me on a board like this.

Having said that, I don't really care whether or not you are a teen. I'm just listening with great interest to what you have to say, and I have some more thoughts about this discussion, primarily the ways in which we try to protect our teens, the nature of the internet, and the subject of teens and sexuality. I hope I'll have time to post soon!

[Sierra]

I should add that there is indeed value to shared experiences. The value is the shared struggle (and the compassion and companionship which can often result).

And I should probably also apologize for writing this post way too late at night. As if my posting style hasn't suffered enough since the boards came back up and got lazy. I apologize for any errors, and I do hope the above post wasn't incoherent rambling.

[Dan Frank]

(Beware, reeeeally long post. Scroll through for your name, in bold, if you don't want to read my responses to everyone)

Go away for a day and look what happens.

I am going to respond to just about each and every one of these, in order... but first let me just comment on the direction this thread has taken, and ask why that's a bad thing? It still relates to teenage sexual issues and the internet, which is what one could infer from the title. And we obviously all have a lot to share on the subject...

As an aside, if I come off as a jackass at any time during this post, I apologize. I am doing very poorly in a multimedia class due to a big screwup in the classes catalogue (that is to say, it listed the only prereq. as English 1A, but the teacher expects us to make snazzy, pretty websites and isn't teaching us html, photoshop, or flash.), so I'm a little bummed out right now.

First of all, Alexander, I have no clue how to get PMs (thats a pluralized private message, not miscapped PMS, which I don't particularly want ;))


Second,

El's 3 Ones, I daresay millions of children today are growing up without breastfeeding. A lot of those (the ones in suburban America, anyway) aren't going to suffer many visible effects from it. But do you really think they are better off being formula-fed? I sure don't. You have strong opinions on parenting issues (since you are a member here, I suspect you believe in most of the tenets of ap parenting), and you likely think people blatantly violating your beliefs to be in error, however small an error it may be.

Perhaps you should reread NM's post. She did not say they were verbalizing fantasies OR having cybersex. She said they were graphically, explicitly, discussing sex.

While I have no great love of sheep, and thus my fantasies of them are infrequent, I certainly find that I have no problem discussing bestiality (Adding an 'a' is a common mistake, as all that is reason dictates it. Of course, we speak english, and we kicked Reason outta the picture when we decided Y could be a vowel AND a consonant), in a humorous or serious manner, whenever the situation dictates.

I do not believe a subject exists that, from a moral standpoint, I should not enter. From an intellectual standpoint, of course, I know better than to discuss Quantum Mechanics. ;)

I didn't say it would ruin the kids life, I just said it wouldn't be a positive influence.


Nursing Mother, you woke up at 6 am!? Eek. (is glad that homeschool and college let him escape the evils of waking before 10 oclock and sleeping before 2)

You admit that she enjoyed what she did, yet you are adamant that prohibiting it is the correct action. Why?

I think that her relative anger or annoyance over what you did is something of a non-factor. I wouldn't much be perturbed if I was prohibited from eating all forms of leafy greens... I enjoy them, but they aren't a focal point of my life. But my lack of annoyance doesn't mean such a prohibition is therefore justified. If you were to kick Ghandi in the head, I suspect his annoyance would have been relatively minimal... that does not, ipso facto, make kicking him in the head a morall justified course of action.

NM, that comment wasn't aimed solely at you, and was also a product of lack of sleep and spending around 8 hours staring at tables of the projected US budget (published in 95) from 1995 to 2002, and trying to find a way to eliminate the deficit. Cripple may be too strong a word, but, as I said above about breastfeeding, just because the detrimental effects aren't readily noticeable does not mean they are nonexistent.


Alexander, you make a good Moderater ;)



Celestial, all I have to say to you at this time is: I think you are absolutely right. :D


Nursing Mother, little offense taken (I won't lie and say 'none' ;)). And fyi, I don't use spellcheck (Except to confirm my suspicion that Bestiality lacked an 'A'). I attribute my spelling abilities, 'terminology', and vocabulary to reading excellent science fiction (Orson Scott Card is a minor Deity, imo) since the age of 7 or so, and writing constantly since 10.

And I still say nonparents can contribute to parenting issues :P


dharma, thank you for your support, and for contributing your own experiences to our discussion. :)


barbara, again, I think it's really funny how similar, yet distinctly different, our viewpoints are. We both agree teens are smart and should be allowed to make their own informed decisions without being constrained by their parents fears. The only way we differ is in what we personally believe to be the 'right' choice for the teens to make. Thanks for your input! :)



Again, Nursing Mother, emotionally crippling was perhaps a little strong. Additionally, it was partially targeted on some of the disappeared posters, who checked in with how they didn't let they're kid on the net at all, because all the pervs and porn was too easily accessible to a 9 year old. And it was partially inflammatory speech ;)

I just don't think chatrooms are somehow worse than talking on the phone.


El's 3 Ones, I think you are still having a gut reaction to the concept of sexual discussion via the net, based on the rhetoric that many forms of parenting media likes to spew. It really isn't all that easy to get exposed to twisted fetishes and deviances through simple chats. Believe me, I chat a lot, and I have to go really far out of my way to find good quality cheetah-porn!

I think you write just fine. Your point is clear and succinct. I just don't agree with it ;)

I don't think NM really alerted the moms here to much other than her belief that discussing sex on the net is unacceptable. (sorry NM, but that's just how I feel)


Awww, but NM, this is such a fun thread!! :(


Ah, lilyka, hi again. It seems neither of us were in terribly considerate moods, and so I feel I must apologize for my own insults and pokes. They weren't necessary.

And thank you for admitting that I did not misrepresent myself, I appreciate it. Listing, in extreme shorthand, that you have 2 kids is hardly telling us where you are coming from. I don't think I deserve to be accused of being a horribly twisted, predatory rapist of teenage girls just because I chose to fill out my profile humorously.

Maybe it's just that I'm an argumentative guy, but I don't see debating an issue you disagree about to be 'picking a fight'. I posted here because I felt I had something to contribute, not because I wanted to piss people off.

As for most of your post, instead of creating a cycle of lengthy posts where we explain ourselves, I'll just agree that we misunderstood one another, and that we should put the insults (on both sides) behind us. Sound good?

If I cant have an objective view of being a teen, and therefore my opinions are rendered moot, then you can't have any opinion on what it means to be a parent, and therefore your opinions on parenting are rendered moot as much as mine. So, we could accept these premises and sit here staring at a blank forum, or we could discuss out opinions and accept that we all have something to add.

You know NM better than I, so I will concede this to you.

Actually, the word was "Protection". It had been turned into a suffixed word, with under and over being the prefixed words. These are not technically etomological phrases, but I do not know a better way to describe the phenomenon.

I hold an incredible feeling of responsibility for my nephew, when I am around him, and he isn't even my son. I think that you're postulation on men and women's parenting roles (or Tine Thevenin's) to be false.

I don't think I need any more clarifications, and certainly no more apologies (one would've been fine :)) We have vastly differing views, and I doubt we will change one another's mind by a few posts.

And I want to thank you again for immediately halting the cycle that would have led to flames. I was worried that I wouldn't have the self control to stay composed if you returned my harsh words with more. You are truly worthy of admiration.


(Despairs a bit that FatherDove always seems to say the same thing as him, but more succinctly) :P


El's 3 Ones, yes, taking away a chat room is as much a shame as taking away a child's leafy vegetables for fear he might ingest an aphid, get malaria, and die.

Basically, I don't need to reply to the rest of you're points, because FatherDove selfishly stole them all and posted my responses.


And as for Clarity... :blush
You have discovered the most effective way to shut me up! Compliments!
:p


And while I was responding, Sierra posted, so I'll address that, too

Well, not much of it, because most of it doesn't really need me to address it.

I do understand what you said about Support.

I did not post on the Intro board (though I have planned to for a few days now) initially because I have an aversion to being labelled and dismissed as a 'newbie' just because I happened to register later than some people. The introductory board at a different (I'll come clean on my geekiness and admit it was a Dungeons and Dragons message board) forum was, put bluntly, conedescending and insulting. I never posted on it.

As for everything else you said, Sierra, I just want to thank you. And thanks for letting me speak my peace before jumping the gun (like so many other Board admins I know would have done).

[Alexander]

Dan!

At the top of this page on the right hand side, see "User CP" (user control pannel.) Take it from there.

a

[Dan Frank]

Thanks a bundle
:)

[barbara]

Dan said:
barbara, again, I think it's really funny how similar, yet distinctly different, our viewpoints are. We both agree teens are smart and should be allowed to make their own informed decisions without being constrained by their parents fears. The only way we differ is in what we personally believe to be the 'right' choice for the teens to make. Thanks for your input!

I agree Dan, I find myself in this position often. I think it makes for good discussions when you agree on some points but not entirely. Unfortunately, it gets me in a lot of trouble as well. More often than not people feel that if you agree with them on some points you need to be convinced to agree with them on all points. How boring life would be if we all agreed.

I think that parents will always want to impart their own set of morals and values to their children. Those will be different for every family. For instance our family values good nutrition, alternative medicine, creative and intellectual persuits, as well as Biblical Christian values. When our young children go to a neighbor's house where candy abounds they need to have the skills to make good decisions about how much to eat. When our teenagers go to a neighbor's house where porn abounds they need to have the skills to make good decisions about what to do with that.

As you well know, it isn't easy to have views and opinions that are opposed to the majority or common opinion. When you know what you believe and why you believe it, you are more likely to stand firm againest popular opinion.

Discussions of this sort can be helpful in affirming our own beliefs as well as allowing us to understand other points of view. As parents we want to protect our children from temptations that they are not yet equiped to deal with. Unfortunatly those temptations have a way of sneaking in before we are confident they can handle them and this is where the conflict of how to handle these situations enters.

Sorry for being so wordy again. I keep meaning to keep my posts short but once I get on my soap box I have trouble getting myself off.:bouncy

[Dan Frank]

Hehe, Barbara, if that comment about "people feel that if you agree with them on some points you need to be convinced to agree with them on all points" was aimed at me, then, not to worry, I won't try and convince you. I've found that 'convincing' is best done simply by stating your views, and why you have them, and then letting other people make their own decisions about how valid they are.

Thank you for respecting my opinion, and keeping the communication amiable. :)

[barbara]

:banana
No Dan it wasn't aimed at you.
That is why I like these boards at Mothering. Most of the people are really interested in having discussion without the need to have everyone agree with them.
If only that were the case in real life!:hat

[joesmom]

THANKS TO EVERYONE WHO HAS PARTICIPATED IN THIS THREAD, WHICH I STARTED READING AT 11:30. IT IS NOW AFTER MIDIGHT & I HAVE NOT SEEN ONE MINUTE OF THE ROCK ON SATURDAY NIGHT LIVE. GRR...

:cuss

love, jenny:hippie

[Chanley]

I also believe that I cannot make the right decisions for others. I only know what is right for me. Which in this case, rather than take away the tool, I would get to the reason for using it. In other words, instead of barring the chatroom, I would want to explore with my child WHAT provoked them to behave that way. Why do they act as they do? Is something missing? however, NM made the decision that benefits her family most, thus the right desicion for her.


To say that because someone is not a parent thus cannot know anything about parenthood, is a fallible statement. As is saying a mothers bond is deeper than a fathers due to sex, is sexist and a daring generalization. My father understands parenthood and paternal love far more than my mother ever will. I have met women here who DO NOT have children yet know more about parenthood and raising them than I may ever know.

We forget that there is not one right or wrong and all sides of the matter should be looked at in respect to the parties involved. Dan offers a view up the mountain that I could not give because I am not him.


And what constitutes adulthood? Is it paying bill? Having a job? I would say that Dan is more of an adult than many 20 somethings I know. Age is irrelevant in my opinion. Wisdom does not necessarily come with age either. I see wisdom at times in 4 year olds who just happen to view the world in a more productive way than I do regarding the subject matter.

I think the thought of our children engaging in sexually explicit behavior hits fear buttons. for many reasons we panic. Our children, those little babies are discussing SEX?? This is especially true if premarital sex is completely against ones belief system. That challenges our authority.

Ok I am rambling at this point.

[Britt]

Hey! Dan, I just figured out who your sister is! She used to date my brother-in-law!

[Dan Frank]

She did?

[Britt]

She did. In college. I *think* you even met my brother-in-law, but you would have been about seven then. (He remembers you.)

Hey, I'm not joking!

[Nawny]

...check your PMs...

;)

:D

[Britt]

:D

[Nursing Mother]

Just wanted to add that today I saw a very interesting show on Oprah about teens and chatlines. It pretty much said everything I expected it too and then some. They gave a bunch of statisics and said 1 in 5 teens is approached by an "unknown" ususally a predator looking to talk sex with a minor. They listed other stats also concerning the dangers. 5 families gave their "horror" story of how their daughters (2 sons) got involved in an innocent chatline only to be lured away by the false pre-tenses of a person acting like a teen.

I really don't think any of us mothers here are being over-paranoid concerning this issue after hearing the reality of how opening yourself up to chatlines can go haywire. I do realize thousands of kids chat with no problems, but why take the chance.

[joesmom]

I agree with you NM!! It is our job to keep our kids out of danger. My son is only three, but I do not intend to allow him to have a TV or computer in his room when he gets older.

Thousands of teens drink alcohol & then drive, but I won't let him do that, either.

Love, Jenny:hippie

[Dan Frank]

First things first... Nursing Mother... of course it did! Oprah also has specials about one legged, blind, deaf, schitzophrenics who were molested by their grandparents as children... "I saw it on Oprah, so it must be common" isn't exactly a factual basis for an argument.

Your statistics are indeed disturbing to me, but not for the reasons you may think.
1 in 5 teens are approached by an unknown, usually a predator? THis isn't really a statistic at all, more like a vague assumption that, hey, if they don't know you and they're lookin' fer sex, they're a predator!

And even if they are, I come back to "so?"
Are they going to reach through the screen?

Joesmom... first of all, how in God's name is drinking and driving similar to chatting? Oooh, wait, it must be the intoxican... no. Oh, then it must be the danger of sudden and immediate deat.... no... Aha! It's because you endanger the lives of oth... no. (Scratches head) Oooooh, it's because you happen to frown on both of them! I understand now. Thank goodness it isn't arbitrary! :D

To reach Princess Post-A-Lot (the title currently held by laralou, in case you were wondering), I shall respond to JW below.

[Dan Frank]

(sigh)JW, JW, JW...

I spent about two hours, following every link I could find, especially at the DoJ site. I found no statistics. So far, the only statistic anyone has found is from Oprah, and not particularly definitive (you're all unknowns to me, does that make you predators?).

Aside from that, JW, you've chosen to provide me with a wealth of anecdotal evidence. Huzzah. Anecdotes, they sure are indicative of the world in general, eh?

What are Anecdotes, anyway, if not interesting stories? And what makes a story interesting? The uniqueness of it. Driving down the street isn't grounds for an anecdote... getting sick eating sushi might be. I'd say what makes an anecdote so... anecdotal... is the rarity of the event.

Does anyone, anyone at all, have some nicely horrifying statistics to back up their claims that chatrooms are evil and dangerous? Anyone? Please?


Anyone but JW can stop there if they want... the rest isn't so much an argument as it is self-defense.


So, JW, You've encountered a lot of perverts, or a lot of net perverts? Clarify please. You took my quote out of context, so I am unsure what you mean.

Being that I don't go to high school, I wouldn't know. I am, however, alarmed by what you said (even I have my limits!)... I mean, is blatant violation of 1st amendment rights common in high schools, or is your husband living in a non-1st amendment country? (last I checked, lockers were private, so I'd think they'd be constitutionally protected... but then, under the law minors have no rights, so what was I thinking?)

But if the pedophile (it's spelled right for me, I'm an American. You know how we hate them crazy ole English Rules) were to do that, then the teen would, presumably, be disgusted, and not meet the pedophile, and therefore be safe from rape. If the teen were intrigued or aroused by what the pedophile showed them, then you should know your kid is odd and should have already taken steps towards counselling, etc.

I find it funny that you speak of experience in support of the other mothers here, when very few, if any of them, have experience in chat rooms. Do you? Have you caught many net perverts?

Well, certainly Dan, your "thinking"
Ouch.:crap

I feel like you are assumed we are all idiots who don't know the ground you lay out before us.....
Actually, many people here have proven themselves to be very intelligent.

I know that I, after full information, have no desire to try opium or speed... if I did, however, I know my parents would not stop me. They would rather I use clean drugs, at, say, home, rather than some drugs I got off a dubious character in a back alley... but they wouldn't stop me. Probably because they know it would be laughable to try. It is further laughable because, well, they have been honest with me about it, and it doesn't sound particularly appealing.

The rest of your post is, in effect, just a verbose way of focusing on my supposed naivete and inexperience. It would be a much more fruitful discussion if you were to instead focus on my arguments.

You repeatedly berate the idea that I think I know what I'm talking about, but I really don't have a clue, and won't until I get raped.

This, to me, smacks of ad hominem in lieu of real argument. I would continue to rebutt your specific remarks, but I'm afraid my own arguments would soon begin to degenerate as well.


As an aside, if I were in a dark alley and began to suspect someone were nearby... my gut and my head would tell me to run like hell. :D

[Nawny]

I've been following this thread with interest. At first, I just sat and shook my head, and warned my little brother that he was in the wrong place to be making the arguments he was making. (Yep, I'm the lucky gal to have Dan as my little brother. I changed that boy's diapers. He dubbed me Nawny before he was a year old. ;))

Lo and behold, he garnered some support out there. This did an amazing thing for me. It gave me a renewed faith (still hesitant) in these boards as a forum I might want to belong to again. He dragged me out of lurkdom with his enthusiasm, and I've posted more in the past week than I had previously posted at all.

That said, I feel that it is important to say a few words in his defense. Dan never said he wasn't fallible. He knows he makes mistakes. We all do. He is not suggesting that teens be let loose to do as they choose with no parental support or advice. In fact, what he is advocating is much more challenging than either laying down the law or leaving kids alone to run wild.

He is saying, again and again, that teens deserve to be trusted, respected, and given the information they need to make their own decisions. I would extend that even further, all the way on down, but this is the teen forum, so we can leave it there for now. :D

Adults, teens, children -- we ALL make mistakes. We all make assumptions that we shouldn't make. IMO, it is far wiser to acknowledge our own fallibility and really listen to and examine the advice and arguments of others. Dan is giving his opinion with clarity, and he is attempting to back up his beliefs with reputable data. He is also not alone. Many other adult parents have supported his views. So why is he being personally attacked?

Because he's young? Because he couldn't possibly be right? Because he has a caustic sense of humour? I've seen Dan be right about many things, and I've seen him acknowledge his mistakes when he is wrong. I don't think he's wrong about this. He has far more experience in chatrooms than I do, and he's done his research.

If he is wrong, as he said, show us. Don't dismiss him just because he's admitted to being sixteen and has a somewhat inflammatory posting style.

Unless we should all start dismissing other viewpoints on the basis of age or gender or race or grammar or spelling or veiled insults... In which case, this is, once again, not a place where I belong after all.

[joesmom]

Dan,
Drinking & driving is similar to chatting on the internet in the sense that one could probably do these things hundreds of times with no negative consequences. I am not willing to sacrifice my son's life or mental well-being on the mere chance that "nothing bad will happen."

And I wonder why your tone is so sarcastic & superior when the women posting here are your elders by an average of around ten years?! (Scratches head & smiles sadly.)


With respect,
Jenny

[Nawny]

Jenny wrote:

I am not willing to sacrifice my son's life or mental well-being on the mere chance that "nothing bad will happen."

No one is willing to make such a sacrifice. :eek No one suggested that you make such a sacrifice.

However, I do wonder how a parent would stop their child from drinking and driving in the first place. In my experience, making something forbidden is a surefire way of making something interesting. Isn't it important for people to understand the dangers inherent in any activity, and then to make responsible choices for themselves?

How could a parent ever ensure that their child would never drink and drive? I don't think it is possible to do that. I DO think it is possible to provide a child with lots of information about the dangers of drinking and driving, as well as lots of examples of how to avoid drinking and driving, and several fall-back plans in case the child winds up in a situation where drinking and driving are likely to happen.

Parents cannot be present in every situation. The best they can do is provide their children with information, experience, and confidence. We learn by thinking, trying things out, thinking some more, and repeating those steps again and again, hopefully all the way to the end of our lives.

I believe that children who have experience thinking and making choices for themselves are likely to be very good at thinking and making choices for themselves. It does not make sense to me that a person who is told how to behave and expected to follow directions will be very skilled at making his/her own choices in life.

To take this back to the chat room, parents cannot ensure that their children will not use chat rooms. They can forbid the use of chat rooms, but that only pushes any chat room explorations out of the realm of parental support. If a parent truly believes that chat rooms are dangerous, wouldn't it be better to be able to help a child understand all of the potential dangers, rather than ensuring that any explorations will happen with strangers? Perhaps by exploring chat rooms together, parent and child would both learn from the experience. ;)

[Nawny]

Jenny also wrote, to Dan:
And I wonder why your tone is so sarcastic & superior when the women posting here are your elders by an average of around ten years?! (Scratches head & smiles sadly.)
:rotflmao :rotflmao :rotflmao :rotflmao :rotflmao :rotflmao

I know the answer to this one! ;) Dan's sarcasm was fostered and encouraged by parents (and older siblings) who think kids have every right to call their elders to task with good cause...

[joesmom]

Nawny,
I did not say my son would never drink & drive; I said I would never LET him drink & drive. Meaning, I would not provide him with alcohol & then give him the keys to the car. When I made that statement, I was merely comparing the possible dangers of DWI with the possible dangers involved with chatting online. Since my son is only three, I am not really worying about either scenario at this point!!

As for the sarcastic tone your son is taking, Nawny, that may be fine for you & your family; heck it'd probably not offend ME if Dan was someone I knew really well. But he isn't, & I don't, & I find his every post to be rude & condescending.

Oh, well. My son is getting ready for bed so I will quit for now.

Jenny:hippie

[Nursing Mother]

I appreciate you defending your brother Nawny, but like joesmom said we know him only from what he has posted here and he has been quite "superior" in his attitudes in dealing with us mothers who know and have lived the life of raising teenagers. I'd like to see what he has to say when he has a few of his own. Life tends to change dramatically when you are finally wearing the shoe so to speak.

Sixteen year old boys can be eloquent and smart, know alot of facts, and certainly be in touch with their opinions and feelings, but wise(in the ways of the world and experience) they are NOT. Wisdom comes through living and experience. In my opinion wisdom is nurtured by time and unfortunately Dan hasn't had a lot of that yet. What he has had, obviously is the freedom to form opinions and express himself which I feel is a very good thing. I allow my children to do with same. I believe it is o.k. for a parent to set limits in fact that is one main job of a parent, because we are wiser, right?:rolleyes: well most of us are, yes there are some very deadbeat parents around, but the majority of us know our children more than they know themselves. The authority of a parent is something everychild needs....and yes 16 is still a child. Ouch...I know that will hurt Dan, but so be it:eek

[Nursing Mother]

JW, I didn't know you knew this thread even existed. Thanks for sharing your input. I had the priviledge of reading it all this morning.

[Nursing Mother]

OUCH, one hot mama JW, . A few times myself I've whopped(verbally)the attitude out of one of my own kids, when they got a little to high and mightly and thought they owned the world!!!!!

[jasnjakesmama]

JW- I wanted to PM you but could not. I am sorry you had to talk about what you went through to get your point accross. It must be very painful to talk about. I'm sorry you went through it. I don't know what else to say but your post made me cry and I'm just sorry....

[Nursing Mother]

Oh JW, I sent sent you the best PM,:(, but you've turned it off. So I guess I'll just say it here.

I know what you mean my arrogant teens. I am so sorry about your experience. arrogance breeds lack of conscience in my book. It is a slip-slid slope down. Parents are scared stiff to tell their kids off when they are disrespect we are all so afraid to offend them or ruin their "self-esteem". I have two of my own and I know how their high and mighty attitudes can be sometimes and it is MY (and dh) job to "lower" those attitudes so they will learn to be kind and respectful. I'll stop ranting, but I am with you on this one. You're a braver women then I. Love, NM

[Chanley]

Wow!!
I am really putting my neck on the line here

I am in NO way affiliated with TCS and JW you were the first to bring it up. Please, please please.

Dan said nothing out of line, however I see many of these older more experienced women who claim wisdom, degrade themselves with put-downs.

Superior behavior???????? What the heck is calling someone silly and naive?

JW, I am really upset by this, I usually applaud you as a rational sensible woman and this time I feel let down. You have done nothing more than loose face with the last post.

Dan, I hope and pray my children are like you. I hope not to raise sheep but independant THINKING individuals such as yourself. and for the record again, I DONT GIVE A RATS BEHIND ABOUT TCS. I am not taking sides merely stating my opinion. Dan, I beg you not to leave but to continue as a part of this community.

Anyone who thinks that 16 is naive is gravely wrong. I was kicked out on my own at 16. The story???? well here it is: Chanley Raw.

My parents were divorced, living with my mom. My father was incredibly abusive and I could not live with him and survive without a literal beating daily. My younger brother had polyps form on his lower intestine due to the blows to his stomach at 11 years of age.

My mother was a script drug junkie (hypochondriac). She would not get out of bed until we came home from school. We lived in squalor and filth. She is the woman who let her brother who molested me from age 4-6 move back in the house 2 years after the trial. He slept in the bedroom next to me. My friends would never come over but rather invite me over because of my step fathers temper and the nasty house. She bribed us that in order to leave my fathers house, we had to steal a pay stubb (my father is a self made wealthy man) so she could sue him for more support and afford to feed us. My little brother did. She recieved $800 a month in child support. My father wanted nothing more to do with us since we stole from him to save our own necks.

Well I never saw a penny. NOT ONE CENT!! I took hand me down clothes from my best friend (still have some of them and she still kids me about it). I had to get out of this situation. HAD TO!!

SO at 15 I got a job. Served 2 purposes: 1. I could wear decent clothes and not bum money from friends when I went out. 2. I was out of the house in the evenings.

I saved money like a fiend. Law in Georgia states that once someone is 17 they can leave and the state will not arrest them as run-aways. I was planning on leaving at 17. I worked 35 hours a week and went to school, keeping my grades up (honor list every semester). Those months are a blur now. working catching a nap, stuffing a breakfast bar down between here and there, hiding money from my mother, watching my hopes flourish as the bank account grew.

When I turned 16, I bought my own car. I had an older friend put me on thier insurance. At this point my parents got $400 per month and did not have to spend a penny on me. Yet, they could not discipline me either, all I did was work and go to school between the fights. Now, years later, we know that my step father was suffering from type 1 diabetes. His mood swings were awful. The fights began to get out of control as I gained more and more independance. He wanted me to do housework in a house I barely lived in. I refused to make his bed or do thier laundry. I took care of my own.

Finally, he kicked me out. at 16. It took me 15 minutes to leave. My mother sobbing in the driveway and me, ohh I was so happy!! Fighting back tears of relief.

AT 16, I lied and got an apt in Savannah Ga. Told the lady I was a college student. They would not let me enroll in school because I could not prove i was living with my parents. I worked 2 jobs, partied,paid my bills. Took care of myself. I never ever took a penny from my parents again.

So, dont get huffy at the thought of a 16 year old being wise or sophisticated. I was, I made mistakes in my youth. But age is relative mammas!!!

[Dan Frank]

Just Wondering,

First of all, as for the horrible things that have befallen you... well, what can I say? I wouldn't wish them on anyone. I wish the world were a better place.

As for everything you said about me... well, you're wrong, and I'll just leave it at that.

Finally, in the few short weeks I've been here, I have already met a plethora of friends, and will most definitely continue to post throughout the foreseeable future.

[Dan Frank]

Joesmom,
Just a quickie... There is no similarity between drunken driving and chatrooms. Drunken driving is leading cause of car accidents (at least among the Twenty and THirtysomething age groups)... chatrooms are not the leading cause of rape. I could go on, but I don't believe it is particularly necessary.

And, since you missed this in Nawny's post, she isn't my mother, she is my sister.

Sarcasm is one of the greatest forms of humor.

[Dan Frank]

Chanley, thanks for your support, and for being one of the friends I mentioned. :)

And check your PMs! ;)

[Sierra]

On that note I must close this thread. I simply can not leave a thread open with personal attacks. Personal attacks degrade the nature of these boards. I have certainly been angry on these boards a few times, I have certainly felt insulted, and there have been times when I've left a conversation saying to myself, "I've put up with this kind of crap for way too long." But personal attacks are not acceptable here. Regardless of anger and hurt, personal attacks do nothing to foster closure or further discussion, and they degrade the nature of the boards, threatening their very existance. If you would like to discuss these issues further, those of you who wish to do so in a respectful manner may do so in new threads. Those of you who wish to not discuss these issues further, please feel free to leave the threads unopened.

I will talk to Cynthia about whether this thread will be left for viewing or moved. Please email or send me a message if you have any questions. In the meantime, I wish us all peace in our hearts.

With respect for all of you,
Sierra