Where do you buy your Sodium Ascorbate? None of our Health Food Stores carry it - Ascorbic Acid, but no Sodium Ascorbate. I want to lay some up "against the season" so to speak, in case of flu, pertussis, etc. Is there a good place online that I could order from? TIA!

I buy from Bronson Laboratories Item # 50B. They seem to have the best price and they are online. Dont have the addy offhand.

Hi,
Got a tip on the Dental forum that sodium ascorbate is good for your gums. Seabarnes, I'm glad you asked this question because I can't find it locally either. BTW, what *is* the difference between sodium ascorbate and ascorbic acid? Can anyone tell me?
Thanks!

Ascorbic acid, is vitamin C without a buffer. It's very acid, and if you ever use it, use it one to one with sodium bicarbonate.

The first sign of vitamin C deficiency is red gums where the collagen bonds have broken down, and the cells are going spongy, and they bleed when brushed. Vitamin C deficiency is THE primary cause for most gum disorders such as "gingivitis".

But if you have gum redness, then you can also be sure that the rest of your body inside is going the same way.

I'm too tired to get up and look in the vitamin cabinet right now, but isn't it packaged as "Ester-C" here, in the states?

Mine is Nutribiotic (Lakeport, CA 95453) Sodium Ascorbate Crystalline Powder (Buffered Vitamin C Pharmaceutical Grade pH 7.1). It is made by dissolving pharmaceutical grade ascorbic acid with sodium bicarbonate derived from sea water. It's food grade and IV grade. I pay about $18.00 for 16oz in a local health food store but the product can be found online, although it costs more.

i ought to have this down pat by now but i tend to get easily distracted by life- so, i have high quality powdered c & empty capsules (no filler, but easy enough to do by hand). half & half bicarb will get me sodium ascorbate? it was that simple when i've been asking wild oats & my health food store (without effect, may i add) to get me sodium ascorbate for years? doh!

and no, btw, before mt gets to it, ester c is not it.

susan

I'm too tired to get up and look in the vitamin cabinet right now, but isn't it packaged as "Ester-C" here, in the states?

Ester-C is Calcium Ascorbate. :)

Never use Ester C, or calcium ascorbate, except, or unless there is NOTHING ELSE around, and do NOT use it long term. If you MUST use it, you will require about double what you'd need with sodium ascorbate, and if you don't salt your food, then you must if you use Ester C. But remember, if there is any possibility that cancer is an issue... excess calcium in the body makes cancer cells go rampant.

That's not the only reason to not use it though...

Well, suseyblue, you can use ascorbic acid and bicarb, but I'm reluctant to do that, because it messes with the stomach acidity. IMO its just better to get sodium ascorbate. Again, if you've got nothing else, then AA + sodium bicarb is better than a kick in the rump.

I special ordered mine from my local co-op. I paid almost $40 for 3lbs of it :bigeyes It is the NOW brand. Oh, and it tastes disgusting, a lil' FYI.

AmyD I dont care much for the taste of SA so I stuff it in those gelatin capsules, I get the ones that hold about a gram.

For my one dd who cant swallow I mix C into lemonade, I can get a lot of C into her that way :LOL

I special ordered mine from my local co-op. I paid almost $40 for 3lbs of it :bigeyes It is the NOW brand. Oh, and it tastes disgusting, a lil' FYI.

Tastes disgusting? Nah.

Try chinese herbal remedies, then you will REALLY know what disgusting is.

I bought mine from Source Naturals--sodium ascorbate crystals.

You can get 8 oz bottles of the NOW brand from Vitaglo.com (http://www.vitaglo.com/760.html) for $4.64. They also sell 3 pounds (http://www.vitaglo.com/762.html) for $29.80.

I don't mind the taste, it's just salty really. My 2 year old DD still likes eating baby cereal (you know, the "first food" you mix with breastmilk, formula or water) so when I mix it up for her I add a pinch or 2 of the sodium ascorbate, and she loves it. She actually prefers it with the SA. I've been wondering though, is it okay to mix the SA with almost boiling water?

Tastes disgusting? Nah.

Try chinese herbal remedies, then you will REALLY know what disgusting is.

:yeah: :LOL

I mix mine in a bit of grape or orange juice. I also get ds' into him this way.

Never use Ester C, or calcium ascorbate, except, or unless there is NOTHING ELSE around, and do NOT use it long term.
Thank you! But would it be a good choice while I'm pg?

Tastes disgusting? Nah.

Try chinese herbal remedies, then you will REALLY know what disgusting is.

:laugh: Haven't tried them yet. I have no problem w/it, but my poor hubby :rolleyes, and the 3 yr old isn't a big fan. Unfortunately/fortunately we are going on the maker's diet and we have to stay away from fruit and sugar, so he just takes it in some water. Will definately do the lemonade trick when we are back eating normally though. :thumb

Oh, and I will definately be buying my NOW 3 lbs from that online source, much cheaper than my co-op, thanks for the link!!

Amy

OK, here's a question - I take Emer'gen-C 1-2X/day (the whole family does) - it lists the Vit C content (1,000) this way: "as Seven Mineral Ascorbates". Sodium (60 mg) is listed separately.

Is this good/bad/otherwise? I love this stuff, it's relatively inexpensive, and it really seems to keep our immune systems in good shape.

Our MD/ND recommended emergen-c for our 16 month old daughter and my wife takes it too. The kid and adult version are the same price except you get 500mg for the kid and 1000mg for the adult. So you can save money by simply buying the adult version and splitting it in half! :thumb

So you can save money by simply buying the adult version and splitting it in half! :thumb

Yeah, that's what I do for my younger kids.

But what I wanna know is, is this a proper way to get the right mix of Vit C & ascorbates? It's most cost-effective for us.

Thanks for all of the good info! Castle, that's the cheapest I've been able to find it online, so I'll probably go with that - thanks for the link! So, should we be taking some of this daily, even if we're well, as a preventative measure? I'm knew to this whole supplement thing and trying to learn more. I take an mineral mix by Ionyx as well as an ounce of xango juice on the advice of my naturopath. What else would you recommend?

Thank you! But would it be a good choice while I'm pg?

no :D

:laugh: Haven't tried them yet. I have no problem w/it, but my poor hubby :rolleyes, and the 3 yr old isn't a big fan.

Suggest to them they could wash it down with creasote and bitumen if they would prefer the like.

They REALLY don't know what disgusting is :D

:lol

Thanks, MT. :love

Mommy To Baby Roni asked:
Thank you! But would it be a good choice while I'm pg?

Montezuma Tuatara answered:
no
---------------

Just to clarify, you mean that Calcium Ascorbate is not a good choice during pregnancy, right? That even during pregnancy Sodium Ascorbate is the best choice?

Mommy To Baby Roni asked:
Thank you! But would it be a good choice while I'm pg?

Montezuma Tuatara answered:

no


Just to clarify, you mean that Calcium Ascorbate is not a good choice during pregnancy, right? That even during pregnancy Sodium Ascorbate is the best choice?

Yes.

Mine is Nutribiotic (Lakeport, CA 95453) Sodium Ascorbate Crystalline Powder (Buffered Vitamin C Pharmaceutical Grade pH 7.1). It is made by dissolving pharmaceutical grade ascorbic acid with sodium bicarbonate derived from sea water. It's food grade and IV grade. I pay about $18.00 for 16oz in a local health food store but the product can be found online, although it costs more.
This is the one we use. I buy mine at Whole Foods. I got the 8oz size for approx $10.

Yes.

Thanks!

And sorry for misspelling your username. :p

No problem :p Montezuma's revenge is what you get if you overdose, so it was an apt slip of the pen.

I use Maxi Baby-C, and am now concerned because it is calcium ascorbate. :( But it contains sodium benzoate, does this ameliorate the calcium?

a-HEM....MT, I was counting on you to answer my question!

Oh righty then.

Now, goes and finds questions...

I've used Emergen-C at times, and I like it because it has other things with it. But for me, its the most expensive option of them all. In terms of tablets, the cheapest I can get is the Canadian Natural factors which is a good mix, but for myself I do a mix of 1 gram citrus bioflavinoids and 5 grams sodium ascorbate.

If I were to take 5 packets of Emergen-C, then I would get all the other things out of proportion for me, given that I need about 5 grams per day. So I leave Emergen-C for something to take when I'm out, and just need a quick leg-up during the day.

Rox, I've not seen a formulation with sodium benzoate, but I know that sodium benzoate does provoke asthma in some people.. so you should research that.

I just feel its cheaper and simpler to do it the way I do it.

Any other way, you mess up everything else.

JMO

Ahem . . . [dummy entering the room] . . . would one of you have time/energy to jot down a quick tutorial on why it is you take so much C? And why the formulation is so critical? Do you or your dcs have health issues you're working on, or this all in the name of prevention? We have some health issues and we take loads-o-supplements, but I've never thought too much about C . . .

MT, I've not come across you before, so I'm not sure what your background is -- you seem like you must be a naturopath or a supplement guru! Would you mind filling me in?

I *thought* I was pretty savvy when it comes to supplements, but I am suddenly feeling very dumm. :wink

If this is too simple for this thread, redirect me and I'll search further. THX!

:notes:

Ahem . . . [dummy entering the room] . . . would one of you have time/energy to jot down a quick tutorial on why it is you take so much C? And why the formulation is so critical? Do you or your dcs have health issues you're working on, or this all in the name of prevention? We have some health issues and we take loads-o-supplements, but I've never thought too much about C . . .

I don't know how much is in the archives. I think much of what we discussed in the past is related to pertussis.

To find out why we discuss that, do an advanced search and put into the subject pertussis AND ascorbate and look at that.

MT, I've not come across you before, so I'm not sure what your background is -- you seem like you must be a naturopath or a supplement guru! Would you mind filling me in?:scratch... Me? no. Just a nutter.

The key to really good health isn't so much vitamins as minerals, but vitamin C is crucial to minerals so it comes higher on my list than the others.

My order of priority is Vitamin C + minerals, then the rest of the vitamins. Preferably in organic food, but because of the reality below, we have to use supplements at times:

Daily Mail, March 5, 2001

FRUIT and vegetables are not as good for us as they were 50 years ago according to a scientific study. Modem farming methods mean that the amount of essential minerals In the food we eat has been reduced alarmingly. There is up to 75 per cent less calcium and 93 per cent less copper . In fruit and vegetables, the study says. Runner beans which used to contain a significant amount of sodium - vital for the working of the nerves and muscles - now have almost no traces of it at all.

The levels of other important minerals such as iron, phosphorous, potassium and magnesium have also plummeted. Nutritionist David Thomas said he was 'astonished' by his flndlngs. 'Minerals have been recognised as being very important to our physiology, but the general public has no idea that there has been this dramatic decline in the levels of such elements in our food,' he said. His research allowed that broccoli has 75 per cent less calcium, which is essential for building healthy body and teeth. Carrots have 75 per cent less magnesium, which protects against heart attacks, asthma and kidney stones.

Spinach, famous as a good source of iron, was found to have 60 per C less iron than it did 50 years ago. Mr Thomas said he believed the reduction in the mineral content in food was a result of modern farm methods which use massive amounts of fertiliser on the soil. The fertilisers encourage ph growth, but this Is at the expense of the minerals which are Important for good health. Mr Thomas said: 'We are made up of these substances. If they're deficient then the body cannot cope as well as It would otherwise.'

He based his conclusions on data from The Composition of Foods, a comprehensive study of the content of all major foods dating back to 1940. By comparing figures over a 50-year period he was able to plot certain trends. A similar analysis, comparing data from 1930 and 1980, was published in the British Food Journal in 1997. It compared 20 vegetables and found levels of calcium, iron and other minerals had declined significantly.

Professor Tim Lang, of the renowned Centre for Food Policy at Thames Valley University, said the results revealed an important trend which needed to be exposed. 'These are big percentages,' he said. 'The nature of production is altering what we are eating. Plant breeders have been trying to develop tomatoes and carrots and fruit that look nice, resist disease and can withstand being shipped halfway around the world.
'They have been less concerned about the minerals in the food. 'We are dying prematurely of coronary heart disease and cancer and we are being told to cut down on fat and eat more fruit and vegetables. But at the same time they are changing the content of what we are eating.' Mr Thomas runs a company called Trace Minerals UK, based in Sussex, which distributes a mineral supplement called ConcenTrace.

Professor Lang said that despite his commercial interest, Mr Thomas had carried out a legitimate piece of research.


I *thought* I was pretty savvy when it comes to supplements, but I am suddenly feeling very dumm. :wink

If this is too simple for this thread, redirect me and I'll search further. THX!

Okay, so you want a vitamin C 101.

Here's a tome for you. There may be URL duplication, but I'm too tired to figure it out.



It depends what you are looking at Vitamin C for.

Vitamin C is NOT just a vitamin, to be considered at 60mg a day to "prevent" scurvy. That is a load of bunk.

Vitamin C does many things. Here are just a few.

Collagen: It's the "foundation stone" for the development of every piece of collagen in your body, and think how many that is. In other words, every cell wall you possess.
Iron absorption. Without vitamin C, you might as well not eat iron.

Toxin Neutralisation: According to old medical literature works really well for diphtheria, whooping cough, Tetanus, spider bites snake bites and polio (Along with a couple other things) , though the action for polio may not have anything to do with the polio, but everything to do with toxic co-factors.

And a whole lot of other stuff... here is some basic starting points and other guff,... so that you can research it yourself.

This guy has some things wrong, but in general the gist is okay...

http://science.howstuffworks.com/vitamin-c.htm/printable

IMMUNE FUNCTION CHANGES IN DOWNHILL RUNNING SUBJECTS FOLLOWING ASCORBIC ACID SUPPLEMENTATION (PDF)

http://www.isei.de/Literature/abstr2001.pdf


A narrow view, and dictionary swallower:

http://www.nap.edu/books/0309069351/html/95.html

Books:

The Healing Factor, Vitamin C against Disease, by Irwin Stone, Perigree Books, NY, 1982, ISBN 0-399-50763-7. Nearly 50 pages are medical references.

Vitamin C, Nature's Miraculous Healing Missile by Dr Glen Dettman, Dr Archie Kalokerinos, Dr Ian Dettman. 1993, Pub: Frederick Todd, Melbourne.

Perhaps the most scientific and scholastic (and hugely expensive) trilogy I own is a 3 volume set called "Vitamin C" By C. Alan B Clemetson (who was a medical professor...) Pub 1989, CRC Press. ISBN numbers. Volume 1 0-8493-4841-2, Volume 2 0-8493-4842-0, Volume 3: 0-8493-4842-9.

For a lifetime of clinical application with results unobtainable with any other methods, then "Medical Pioneer of the 20th Century by Archie Kalokerinos is compulsory reading.Pub: 2000.Biological Therpies Publishing Pty Ltd, ISBN 0-646-40852-6

A doctor who does cancer research in Auckland Medical school, who cured his leukemia with Vitamin C and iscadore (because he didn't have insurance to have conventional treatment immediately) looked at the role of Vitamin C in the immune system, in particular, macrophages. He found that macrophages were vitamin C dependant, and literally ran out of gas, once the Vitamin C was no longer present. When presented with more, they started up again. He sent me a letter saying that based on his research, which was never published of course, he would have to upgrade the basic RDA of Vitamin C to 1,000 mgs a day - solely on the basis of macrophage activity, but that he did not know if any other part of the immune system was also Vitamin C dependant.

I suspect other parts are, which is why for me a basic dose of 5,000 mgs for me, fulfills my biochemical individuality. But only under normal circumstances. When I get sick, my needs climbs rapidly.

The next area we have to consider are other functions of Vitamin C which were not part of this study, since the laboratory only looked at one thing, which is like looking at one leaf on a huge tree and thinking that might represent the A - Z's of the issue.

I have so many brilliant studies on Vitamin C it is hard to know where to start. But let me just discuss three. In the Journal of International Academy of Prevention of Medicine, 1978, Volume 5, Pages 54-59, Drs Fukumi Morishige and Akira Murata, detailed a study in which they divided people who had to have blood transfusions into two groups. No patients received immunoglobin...This study went from 1967 - 1976. Over 9 years, one group who received blood received between 2,000 - 6,000 mgs of Vitamin C a day, after transfusions . The second group received 1 gram or less. The rate of Hepatitis B in the first group was 0.2% and in the second group was 7%, and the study was halted, because the Japanese Medical ethics people considered that it was essential that all patients were given high doses of vitamin C following transfusions.

The study concluded that Vitamin C given in large amounts has a significant prophylactic effect against post-transfusion hepatitis, especially type B.

Now, think of all the USA people who could have escaped Hepatitis B if the American medical people had known about that.

The second one is a study on the effect of ascorbic Acid in the treatment of Tetanus. This was bulished in the Bangladesh Medical Research Council Bulletin, June 1984, Volume X, No. 1. Authors K. Jahan et al. They did two concurrent studies. One using chicken which were divided into four groups of 15 birds each. Birds in group one got 5 nanograms of strychnine sulphate only, group two got 30 mgs Vitramin C 10 minutes before the same dose of strychnine. Group 3 got 10 nanograms of strychnine, and group four again, 30 mgs Vitamin C then 10 nanograms of strychnine.

the patients with tetanus were divided into three groups. On, aged 1 - 12 years, who received 1000 mg Vit C in addition to conventioal antitetanus therapy, which the control group received. The second group was 13 - 30 years, and they also got 1,000 mg of Vit C in addition to conventional treatment. Why on earth they used such a low dose for the older ones, goodness only knows, because a bigger body needs a bigger dose. But, never mind. the results were that the conventional group of 1 - 12 yr olds had a 74.2 percent mortality rate - the 12 - 30 year olds had a 67.8% mortality rate. In the Vitamin C treated group, the 1 - 12 yr group have 0% mortality, and the 13 - 30 yr group had a 37 % mortality.

The results of the chicken study. In group one, the wings of all birds stretched, Some walked on toes, others kept jumping and could not walk.

Group 2 - no symptoms.

Groups 3 Extensor paralysis of legs, opisthotonus, and severe convulsions. All but three died.

Group 4. Extensor paralysis in 3 chicks. No neurological symptoms in others. The affected birds recovered in about 30 minutes after the appearance of the symptoms.

I have discussed these two studies with "experts" here, who have read little or nothing on Vitamin C, and their response to the Japanese one was silence. The unfortunate and unguarded response to the Bangladesh was was laughter and the comment "What would they know, there..."

the third study is Journal of Epidemiology and Community Health 1997; 51: 479 - 485, page 479 - 485. called "Dietary Vitamin C and bone mineral density in post menopausal women in Washington State, USA. Suzanne G Leveille, et al.

Quote. "Conclusion: there was no evidence that vitamin C from the diet was associated with BMD, although long term use of vitamin C supplement was associated with a higher BMD in the early postmenopausal years and among never users of oestrogen."

So obviously, vitamin C has an influence here, as well, though they made no attempt to figure it out.

To try to bring a whole lot of thoughts together here, bearing in mind it has taken Clemetson 3 volumes to do that, the body has many uses for vitamin C. I know I would not be in one piece today without it.

One is detoxification. Vitamin C can be used to great effect in any toxin mediated diseases - according to the early medical literature, and clinical trials on humans. It can also be used to good effect on venoms of many kinds.

I will give you two examples, which happened on seperate occasions, to children in my care, both involving other people's boys. Both boys were highly allergic to bees. We were way out in the country, about 2 hours from the nearest acute medical facility. And the car of this child's mother had broken down. I never travel anywhere with children, without a first aid kit. Even today. and it always has sodium ascorbate (Vit C) powder in it. The first little boy, called Andre, was 4. He got stung, and his mother went hysterical, (even though I scraped away the sting with a knife blade straight away), because according to his medical alert bracelet, he now had 20 minutes to live. Someone fled for help to the nearest telephone, which was that long away. During that time, I pumped that child with Vitamin C, until he was more than full. I also used ledum tincture, not because I know it works, becuase I don't - but becuase it made me feel better. Anyway. The father arrived, having broken every speed limit in the world, and his front fender, expecting to find a corpse. What he found was a little boy who now had a dose of Montezumas revenge, and had been to the "loo" three times. A good sign, that I was way over his maximum dose. But when there is toxin there, I ignore the C-stix. I don't know how much the body is using, so I just pour it in, then back off slightly when the diarrhoea starts. So, four hours after the sting, he was at A & E, with his parents been given the third degree for ostensibly previously "lying", even though it was there in their records from the last occasion. Andre's parents continued the Vitamin C treatment using urinary spill-over to gauge his needs until the swelling had gone.

The second occasion was a boy of 11. He got stung about 5 years later in similar circumstances, except there was a car that worked, but was a little less co-operative than Andre. I could only get 10 1,000 Acerola flavoured tablets into him in the first hour, before he rebelled. He had a slightly longer "critical" time of just over an hour, according to his mother. They got to the hospital three hours after the sting, and were discharged without treatment, but two hours after that, the boy started having bronchospasm, so the mother rang me to ask "why it hadn't worked", to which I replied, becuase his body has used it up, and he wouldn't take any more. The mother tested his urine, and there was no spill-over. The child refused to take more, and landed up in hospital for conventional treatment.

So that's our only personal experience of Vitamin C with Bee stings in highly allergic children.

But there was an interesting other case I was involved with, which involved a hospital bun-fight. A little girl we knew, had contracted Kawasaki Disease. This is an interesting disease, which no-one "knows" how it starts. They "think" it might be dust-mites. They haven't identified the culprit either. I have my own theories on how and why it started, but won't go into that here. But again, I consulted Archie, who had treated Kawasaki disease with Vitamin C with good results. He faxed me over a swag of stuff. So I went to hospital with it all. The parents were desperate, because this little girl was going down-hill, and had been for nearly a week.

I arrived un-noticed, and the parents being reluctant to try Vitamin C without the paediatrician's permission, we made an appointment. They wanted me to go with them, being mouse-type people. Well, the first thing that happened was the paediatrician recognised me, and went into a tirade about how dare they darken his chambers with such a cretin as myself. I applied court tactics, and just started asking him questions. Which he couldn't answer. I asked him what he knew about Vitamin C treatment of Kawasaki Disease, and he knew nothing. The father dialled Archie's number on his mobile, by arrangement, and he refused to talk to him. I left the literature with him, which according to the nurse, was flung in the skip. He point blank refused to even consider the issue. His paradigm, authority and knowledge had been challenged, and he didn't want a bar of it..

I told the parents what to do, but they were too scared to start that day. The next day, she was worse, and skin was starting to peel, so they rang Archie to confirm everything and started the treatment without permission. Within 6 hours, the temperature had gone, and their biggest problem was one little girl trying to rip out lines. They were discharged two days later. The peeling only extended to the edge of the finger-tips.

The case was written up, hailing the virtues of the gamma globulin which had been used in the first 5 of the 8 day stay. Even though the parents had not given permission for the case to be published, unless the Vitamin C doses and times, which they had written into the hospital clinical records themselves, were included in the study. They were not. Of course.

Now, lets look at Vitamin C itself. For me, Vitamin C does not work very well, alone. I need to take other vitamins with it. I have to take Vitamin A. (By the way, vitamin C is very useful to help clear symptoms of vitamin A toxicity is someone has been stupid enough to overdose)I also need magnesium, and zinc. Vitamin F is made more effective when plenty of vitamin C is taken. Pantothenic Acid is more effective with Vitamin C. So is B15, para-aminobenzoic Acid, B6, B2, B1,Vitamin E, Calcium.

So we are talking about a very complicated biochemical network of action, which will vary from individual to individual.

The only time Vitamin C can and should be taken in isolation IMO is under conditions of acute illness, or where toxin from a sting or bite is an issue. Or, of course, scurvy.

Actually, scurvy would be a very instructive and interesting study for anyone, after all, death by scurvy is essentially the total breakdown of collagen throughout the whole body.

The issue of Vitamin C and other vitamins is not one that can be tested, or utilised in normal conditions, in laboratories in isolation (i.e. Vitamin c on its own). And it certainly cannot be evaluated for acurate action in a test-tube away from the immune system of the body.

For those interested in Vitamin in general, try to find an out of print book called "Mental and Elemental Nutrients" by Carl C. Pfeiffer, Ph.D., M.D. Printed 1975, ISBN 0-87983-114-6.

For all that this is 27 years old, this book is absolutely fascinating. You would like to think that the medical professions knowledge of Vitamins has improved since then, but IMO, the reductionist method of looking at one thing down a microscope is sending the word "knowledge" into disrepute.

For those who want to udnerstand more about the concept of different doses for different people - I don't know a more recent book, because this one was enough for me. It is called "Biochemical Individuality, the Basis for the Genetotrophic Concept" by Roger J. Williams. Who is a doctor. Pub 1979, ISBN 0-292-70022-9, John Wiley and Sons, USA. This was a man way before his time.

If you are lucky enough to track down all these books, read and understand at least the overall gist of them (Clemetson's are hard work!), then you will probably know more about the subject of Vitamin C, its functions, symbiotic relationships, various functions, and how it interacts in a complex web of multifunctioning in the body, than the researchers of the study mentioned.

For while Vitamin C is called a vitamin, IMO, it is not just a vitamin. It is a detoxification agent, anti-viral, antibacterial (different modus operandi to anti-viral function), a key player in many different functions, such as bone density, anti-stroke, anti-heart attack.

In an article on Influenza I posted here eons ago, there was a short extract on some studies which did show benefit in clinical use which read:

"Might malnutrition be a factor? I looked in vain to find anything in any of the clippings about the use of non- patented medicine in this year’s publicity. Apart from one reference to eating good food I could find nothing. Dr Lance Jennings goes on about how serious influenza is, but nowhere do I see any mention of his study (mentioned in North and South, June 1996) “conducted at the University of Wisconsin in 1988 which demonstrated that a daily dose of 2000 mg of vitamin C reduces the severity of a cold by one half, and alleviates influenza symptoms.”

Nor is it mentioned that a recent review (Paed Infect Dis J, 1997;16: 836-7) of three vitamin C studies found huge decreases (³80%) in pneumonia in people who took vitamin C as opposed to those who didn’t, and mentioned Sabin’s findings that no cases of pneumonia were found in monkeys with adequate vitamin C.

This would seem very important, since the focus of the medical people’s loving-kindness seems to have been the elderly. So why doesn’t Lance Jennings tell them that zinc is vital for colds (and the flu)? The last time he mentioned that was in the Sunday Star Times, 7/7/96. Since vitamin C is his interest, why doesn’t he tell the group most at risk from the flu that they could not only lessen the severity of, if not prevent, both flu and pneumonia by taking supplements, but that vitamin C would increase their iron absorption (Nutrition Reviews Vol. 45, No 7 July 1987) and greatly enhance the Th1 cellular immunity which is all important in fighting the flu (Paed Inf Dis J, 1999;18: 283-290). Vitamin C and E supplementation also reduces the risk of cataracts by at least 50% (Canadian study, mentioned in Time, 6/4/92). Vitamin C reduces coronary mortality by 50% in comparison with those who don’t take it (BMJ Volume 314, 1 March 1997), vitamin E significantly improves cell mediated immune responses in the elderly (JAMA, May 7, 1997, Vol. 277, No 17:1380-1386), a high level of vitamin C means you have a far lower chance of having a stroke (BMJ, Volume 310, pg. 1563-6), men with a history of cardiac disease who were given beta carotene supplements of 50 mg every other day suffered half as many heart attacks, strokes and deaths as those popping placebo pills (Harvard study 22,000 male physicians Time, 6/4/92), and that supplementation with vitamin E reduces the pathogenesis of arthritis, diabetes and systemic lupus erythematosus (Am J Clin Nutr, 1993; 57: 650-656, Metab Clin Exp 1990;39:1278-1284)…."

And this is just scratching the surface of conditions which I , Clemetson and others have described which all benefit from Vitamin C.

Vitamin C can't be patented, and is of no financial value to pharmaceutical companies. And I'm sorry to say, that is what drives the majority of conventional doctors, who do not know where to look to find the information which could possible cause them to rethink their attitudes, for the sake of their patients.


These sites might help you understand why (Don't know if all the URLs will work though:

http://www.orthomed.com/index.htm

http://www.seanet.com/~alexs/ascorbate/index.htm

http://www.seanet.com/~alexs/ascorbate/197x/klenner-fr-j_appl_nutr-1971-v23-n3&4-p61.htm#appendix

http://www.orthomed.com/klenner.htm

http://doctoryourself.com/cathcart_thirdface.html

http://www.internetwks.com/pauling/hoffer.html

http://www.vitamincfoundation.org/mega_1_1.html#FISHES

http://www.vitamincfoundation.org/mega_1_1.html#FRED

http://www.vitamincfoundation.org/mega_1_1.html#NULL

http://www.autism.com/ari/editorials/vitaminc.html

and just to get that old hoary about kidney stones out the way:

http://archinte.ama-assn.org/issues/v159n6/abs/ioi80289.html

New insights into the physiology and pharmacology of vitamin C

http://www.cma.ca/cmaj/vol-164/issue-3/0353.htm

http://nurses.medscape.com/reuters/prof/2001/12/12.10/20011207clin009.html

http://www.*********/p/vitc.html

Dr Cathcart http://www.mall-net.com/cathcart/

Vit C Foundation http://www.vitamincfoundation.org/

Klenner paper http://www.orthomed.com/klenner.htm

Null http://www.thehealingcenter.com/

Dr Pittman http://www.he.net/~center/

OrthoMed http://www.orthomed.org/

Ascorbate Web http://www.seanet.com/~alexs/ascorbate/

Linus Pauling site http://www.internetwks.com/pauling/

C for Yourself http://www.CforYourself.com/

I also have to take bioflavinoids with it. Brainfag...

:thumb Great stuff, MT. Bookmarked!

anyone take a multi? liquid or pill? what brand? why?

my dad always made us take vit C, so i ussualy just take vit C, am switching to sodium ascorbate, ordering now...but a multi too? yes or no?

wow :notes:

anyone take a multi? liquid or pill? what brand? why?

my dad always made us take vit C, so i ussualy just take vit C, am switching to sodium ascorbate, ordering now...but a multi too? yes or no?

My approach has been to take what I know I'm lowest in which is shown by my immune system, but the primary approach has to be via food.

That's why its important to have comprehensive books on nutrition. I have several, but the one which I lend out most often is an Australian one called "The Natural Health Cookbook" by Dorothy Hall and Carol Odell.

The other book which is an old one, which I find very useful to give people a better historical perspective is "Nutrition against Disease" by Dr Roger J Williams. He also wrote "Biochemical Individuality" which is a very interesting book and explains a lot that the others don't.., and "Physician's Handbook of Nutritional Science" which is interesting, but not compulsory reading :D

In terms of other texts, again, I prefer older ones. My favourites would be "Mental and Elemental nutrients" by Carl C Pfieffer MD, and also his "Total Nutrition", and "The Healing Nutrients within."

Yes, I'm old fashioned. I don't like the way that so many of the books now, are dumbed down, as if it would be impossible for the ordinary reader to understand well thought out logical reasoning.

Yes, I'm old fashioned. I don't like the way that so many of the books now, are dumbed down, as if it would be impossible for the ordinary reader to understand well thought out logical reasoning.

Hey, now! Some of us (OK, me :nut) aren't quite the intellect you are, m'dear ... I, for one, kinda need a dumbed-down version of this stuff.

"Immunity for Dummies" :LOL

I recently purchased some vitamin c wafers for my DD. They are 500mg and it says that it is (as sodium ascorbate & ascorbic acid) 830% DV. Does this sound like it would be ok for DD? Or should I swithc to straight sodium ascorbate?

BTW, MT, thanks for the information about books. I've been wondering about books on nutrition as I'd like to start reading up on it.

Hey, now! Some of us (OK, me :nut) aren't quite the intellect you are, m'dear ... I, for one, kinda need a dumbed-down version of this stuff.

"Immunity for Dummies" :LOL Skelle, as someone of only average intellect who languished at school in lower and mid stream classes I can tell you this. There is no such thing as "immunity for dummies". You sit down, you start reading, and you look up the words you don't understand. And strangely enough it makes sense. If it really gets you down, you skim over the russian words, snorkel the rest and you glean enough to get a bigger picture. Then some of the russian words, when looked up, make better sense.

All the "immunity for dummies" talks do, is ensure that the listeners never get a real handle on anything, and just do as someone else says instead.

You just THINK you need something simplified. I know full well, that you would cope just fine, because if I can, you can. And you can say. "but this and but that"... but the fact is that yes, I've been doing this for 23+ years.

Everyone has to start somewhere. You start at the beginning and keep on working. No shortcuts. Just the full immunological monty.

Did I just purchase the wrong stuff??????????

It is Solaray Vit C 1000 mg with bioflavonoid concentrate plus rose hips and acerola. The back says Ascorbate Acid.
TIA

Another stupid question.... Everything I'm reading is all about ascorbic acid. I know that the reason for using sodium ascorbate is to avoid gastric upset that ascorbic acid could cause, but do they work exactly the same way in the body?

I've no idea paynetjl, becuase I live on another planet to Texas.

um, okay?

Did I just purchase the wrong stuff??????????

It is Solaray Vit C 1000 mg with bioflavonoid concentrate plus rose hips and acerola. The back says Ascorbate Acid.
TIA

This is what I take, and it's been extremely effective! I know I'm "supposed" to be using SA, but this works for me, is cheap, and doesn't require mixing in anything, and it doesn't give me any digestive problems. And I take about 15 a day when folks around me are sick, and about 7 a day just for maintenance. Just my .02.

Thanks So much!!

fwiw, (and it's a no-brainer if you think about it) smilemomma (& and other savvy dentists) have fits about chewable c- it eats the enamel right off your children's teeth.

in the meantime (till i figure out a way to get sodium ascorbate into children that have more-or-less weaned themselves out of any appreciable amount of c from my milk) i get a liquid- they have good ones at the health food stores, but my supermkt pharmacist orders me some for convenience sometimes (whole foods has s. ascorbate? when i've been nagging wild oats for years? hmmmn, they are opening our state's first... next to the wild oats, of course, god forbid they put one closer to the 'burbs, because DRIVING an hour is so ecologically friendly- ok, rant over. anyway, at least hopefully soon i'll be able to pop in & get some. like, when i'm in TOWN. there, i'm done, really :P)

susan

OKay MT: Who ARE you? I'm not taking the "nutter" explanation!

That was quite an amazing post . . .

Hi MT,

If I were able to get my hands on a copy of the Natural Health Cookbook would you recommend that I go for it? I found it on a used book site and it says it will only be $3.50 to ship from Australia. I kind of think they'll come back with additional charges but I was wondering what you think?

fwiw, (and it's a no-brainer if you think about it) smilemomma (& and other savvy dentists) have fits about chewable c- it eats the enamel right off your children's teeth.



susan
:duh:

and :crap: I give my ds the sodium ascorbate/ascorbic acid + bioflavinoids from Trader Joes everyday! Does the liquid have bioflavinoids? How else can I get those? And which liquid do you buy?
TIA

I've no idea paynetjl, becuase I live on another planet to Texas.

Hey now...I hear there's some REALLY cool, intelligent people that live in Texas. :D

no, unfortunately the one i have right now doesn't have bioflavinoids (the one i got for more $ from wild oats MAY have, but i don't think so.) it might be a whole lot more pita, but could you grind them up with a pestle & add them to a drink? it's the chewing that is the issue.

(my kids eat A LOT of raw oranges/tangerines with much of the white left on, so i hope that is helping on the bioflavinoid front. it is tricky till they get where they can swallow capsules, isn't it?)

susan

Thanks Suseyblue. My dd will take sodium ascorbate mixed with blueberry juice from a dropper, of course she is the one still nursing, so she doesn't so much need it, and my ds will sometimes. Great idea about grinding the chewables up :thumb I think I'll try it, now for a good source for good mortar and pestle :wink .
Ditto on the oranges/tangerines, but my ds just got picky about the white parts *sigh* .

Sorry to be getting in on this so late, but...

Why not take Ester-C? I just spent $30 on a big bottle of it!! Can I at least finish this bottle, or is it so bad I should stop now? I purchased it because I thought it was "gentler" than sodium ascorbate and ascorbic acid.

P.S. I salt my food.

P.P.S. Going to read MT's long post. If the answer is in there, then sorry to ask... :shy

thanks for the reading material, MT :)

You can finish the bottle jlpolzin. It just means you will need to take more than you would if you used sodium ascorbate. The real danger in Ester C, as I see it, is what happens when you take it long term.

I know, because I was stupid enough to do that years ago, and nearly paid the price. Fortunately, the mallet descended on my head, and I got it sorted out quick enough :D

chlobo, answered via PM.

OKay MT: Who ARE you? I'm not taking the "nutter" explanation!

That was quite an amazing post . . .

I'm an old grey nag, who lives underneath the world, and hangs on just, by virtue of suction capped feet. Hence the rushes of blood to the head.

Hey now...I hear there's some REALLY cool, intelligent people that live in Texas. :D :D Yeah, well I know. I didn't mean it that way :p I meant that I've no way of knowing what you people who stand upright on the planet can buy, since we who hang upside down, have a different set of commercial options.

:D :D

Why not take Ester-C? I just spent $30 on a big bottle of it!! Can I at least finish this bottle, or is it so bad I should stop now? I purchased it because I thought it was "gentler" than sodium ascorbate and ascorbic acid.




Me too! Oh my goodness, I wish I had read this thread. Thanks Montezuma for all the info. I'll finish my bottle then get some sodium ascorbate!

I'm an old grey nag, who lives underneath the world, and hangs on just, by virtue of suction capped feet. Hence the rushes of blood to the head.

She lies. She takes a stance, plants her feet firmly, and won't budge.

And she's no "old grey" anything.

She lies. She takes a stance, plants her feet firmly, and won't budge.Ah, the bull-dog stance, as dh calls it...

Haven't you seen my sucker feet? :D

And she's no "old grey" anything.

Then why is my hair all peppered with white? Black and white = grey.

Suseyblue,

What brand did you find at whole foods? I was there yesterday and only found liquid C in the ascorbic acid form. Maybe if I know which brand to look for I'll have more luck.

For the moment I'll grind up those large chewable wafers and try to find some kind of food that DD will eat to put them in. That is the real challenge.

//

Suseyblue,

What brand did you find at whole foods? I was there yesterday and only found liquid C in the ascorbic acid form. Maybe if I know which brand to look for I'll have more luck.

For the moment I'll grind up those large chewable wafers and try to find some kind of food that DD will eat to put them in. That is the real challenge.


oh yeah, the liquid c's are only ascorbic acid. i thought i was clearer about not being able to find sodium ascorbate here for love or money. (i hate buying stuff online, although if i can find a paypal taking one i may have to go there.) right now if the choice was chewable or liquid whatever, i'd have to go with liquid- my kids have perfect teeth, mine suck, & i want to keep theirs perfect. bad teeth are expensive, painful, and lead to health problems in themselves.

now when someone finds a nice liquid sodium ascorbate, won't we all burn a path to their door!

susan

susan

I knew I should have read here first. I have been gone for awhile visiting with my parents and now that they left, I went to the health store to get some of this stuff. I came out with calcium ascorbate. Grrr..I went in saying sodium but the person there said something was wrong with that type of vit c.

Oh well. Will use it up I guess then get the right stuff. Will do some reading so I know my butt from the ground ya know.

Sasssyblue,

Thanks for the info. FWIW, I am taking my DDs chewables (SA) & grinding them up and adding them to her milk. Sort of like a liquid. LOL. Just until I finish the bottle. Then I'll buy the powder.

Sherra, You have a new signature!! I LOve the siggys, they tell you so much about another person!!

(if its not new, forgive me, i just noticed it!!)

haha yah this is a new sig. I was helping my mom with her sig as she just got an account on here. I'm thinking of taking one of the dogs off and just keeping one dog. Too much animation kinda making me dizzy lol!

Just thought this needed a :bump:

Hullo -- reviving this thread now that we're in the midst of cold and flu season (at least on this side of the world!).

I just skimmed the whole thread and can't find a recommended dosage for little peeps. I have a 32 lb 4 yo and a 24 lb 15 mos old (so close in weight, but not sure if the ages are important). How much S.A. should they be getting? (and I don't mean according to the FDA -- I mean for REAL health)

and don't you think Vit C is a great natural antihistimine? Ped here is rx'ing daily Claritin for ds1's likely dust mite allergies, which then lead to frequent (okay, let's say CONSTANT) colds and viruses.

Am hoping MT is still around and reading . . .

(my kids eat A LOT of raw oranges/tangerines with much of the white left on, so i hope that is helping on the bioflavinoid front. it is tricky till they get where they can swallow capsules, isn't it?)



According to some teacher my mom had in a master gardening class last year the part of the orange that has the greatest amount of C is the peel. The orange part we eat has a very low % of C.

Hullo -- reviving this thread now that we're in the midst of cold and flu season (at least on this side of the world!).

I just skimmed the whole thread and can't find a recommended dosage for little peeps. I have a 32 lb 4 yo and a 24 lb 15 mos old (so close in weight, but not sure if the ages are important). How much S.A. should they be getting?

It depends on the child. I start at 250 mg per kg of body weight.

1 kg = 2.2 pounds. so your 32 lb one, is 14.5 kgs, x 250 mgs = 3,636 mgs over waking hours.

24 lbs divided by 2.2= 9.9 x 250 = 2,475 mgs over waking hours. Obviously I don't worry about exact numbers. 1,000 mgs = 1/4 level tsp. so I eyeball it from there.

If that doesn't bring results, I up the dose.

Our youngest needs almost double the dose the oldest needs.

and don't you think Vit C is a great natural antihistimine? Ped here is rx'ing daily Claritin for ds1's likely dust mite allergies, which then lead to frequent (okay, let's say CONSTANT) colds and viruses.

Am hoping MT is still around and reading . . .For my husband it certainly is. He was able to drop all antihistamine medication once he got onto a decent dose of vitamin c.

It depends on the child. I start at 250 mg per kg of body weight.

1 kg = 2.2 pounds. so your 32 lb one, is 14.5 kgs, x 250 mgs = 3,636 mgs over waking hours.

24 lbs divided by 2.2= 9.9 x 250 = 2,475 mgs over waking hours. Obviously I don't worry about exact numbers. 1,000 mgs = 1/4 level tsp. so I eyeball it from there.



Wow! That's A LOT! My own bowel tolerance, when I'm not ill, is only at 3,000 mg/day. Do you think maybe I should do bowel testing with my babes? Hmm. Am trying to think if I know how to do that . . .

Thanks, MT. Knew you could help! :thumb

WHOAAA... thanks for the list, but I most say that I do feel a bit overwhelmed.. this definitely needs some studyind on my end! is there a way to learn how much to give of each vit and mineral... age? weight? during healthy times.. health + winter (or when surroundings might likely have lots of germs etc floating around..) and of course when not well? forgive me if this was all mentioned already, please... I haven't had a chance to study the post yet.. and THANKS AGAIN!!

sorry for the redundant typing.. i started typing b4 the Q was asked and then so promptly answered.. by the time i posted.. my Q was already answered.. more Q's later after babe is in bed, then i'll type w/2 hands :)

Wow! That's A LOT! My own bowel tolerance, when I'm not ill, is only at 3,000 mg/day. Do you think maybe I should do bowel testing with my babes? Hmm. Am trying to think if I know how to do that . . .

Thanks, MT. Knew you could help! :thumb

Oh... were you talking about "normal"? I thought you meant when she was sick. That is the base-level for if your child is sick....

It depends on the person Breathe. It's not a lot when you are really ill. The body chews up vitamin C so fast in infectiou, its incredible.

On a good normal day, when I don't go out, 7 grams will take me to bowel tolerance. But I'm a workaholic. On a bad day, if I go to the city and have to put up with fumes etc, I will need over 40 grams.

But when I'm sick, that can go through the roof.

Oh, forgot to answer, Breathe. AGain, that depends on the child. For normal dosage, I work a baseline of 50 mgs per kg of body weight, and then work up from there. It's experimentation really. So your 32 lbs child would be around 750 mgs per day... but again, it depends on the child. Pogo sticks appear to need more.....

so if I got it correctly, for healthy child 50mg/kg and for healthy adult 100mg/kg??

how much can be taken at once? how long must we wait between each dose?

how to know if we're getting enuf vit. and minerals? where do we find these.. how best to do this pracitcallly?

in an earlier post MT wrote the following:

<<<<<Now, lets look at Vitamin C itself. For me, Vitamin C does not work very well, alone. I need to take other vitamins with it. I have to take Vitamin A. (By the way, vitamin C is very useful to help clear symptoms of vitamin A toxicity is someone has been stupid enough to overdose)I also need magnesium, and zinc. Vitamin F is made more effective when plenty of vitamin C is taken. Pantothenic Acid is more effective with Vitamin C. So is B15, para-aminobenzoic Acid, B6, B2, B1,Vitamin E, Calcium.>>>>>

I have to admit I only followed about half... vit F??? some other phrases too... can we get a '101' for this paragraph

on another note: I have been giving the C to my kids in hot water w/ honey... is it terrible to do this in plastic cup??

Thanks MT and all educated others for your endless patience in explaining something we should all learn in highschool!!

so if I got it correctly, for healthy child 50mg/kg and for healthy adult 100mg/kg?? About that, but again, it depends on the immune system

how much can be taken at once? how long must we wait between each dose? I guess. And I'm the world's worst pill taker, so they get taken when I walk past and happen to remember... and if I don't, then I take a bolus dose at night....

how to know if we're getting enuf vit. and minerals?Vitamin C, I know by how I feel... minerals is a bit harder, but because the index symptom for me with magnesium deficiency was the "interjection" of ectopic heart beats and irregular beats with flutters, and they have now gone,... that's how I know I've got enough magnesium. And it requires 1,400 mgs for me, to keep the heart stable.

where do we find these.. how best to do this pracitcallly? I don't know. I don't live in the USA. Ideally, if commercial vegetable and fruit growers did their "job" properly we shouldn't need to do this at all :angry

The other way is to grow some of your own, majoring on good organic compost (by that I mean, not putting sprayed stuff in your compost heap...) and using rock dust which puts back a lot of the minerals. Just make sure the soil isn't too acid, or the minerals won't be absorbed.

That's another thing. If you body is acid, its harder to absorb minerals... and that is also where magnesium comes in.... or dolomite... if you have enough of that, your body won't be so acid, and you will absorb minerals better...

in an earlier post MT wrote the following:

<<<<<Now, lets look at Vitamin C itself. For me, Vitamin C does not work very well, alone. I need to take other vitamins with it. I have to take Vitamin A. (By the way, vitamin C is very useful to help clear symptoms of vitamin A toxicity is someone has been stupid enough to overdose)I also need magnesium, and zinc. Vitamin F is made more effective when plenty of vitamin C is taken. Pantothenic Acid is more effective with Vitamin C. So is B15, para-aminobenzoic Acid, B6, B2, B1,Vitamin E, Calcium.>>>>>

Vitamin F - Essential Fatty acids. http://www.anyvitamins.com/vitamin-f-fattyacids-info.htm

some other phrases too... can we get a '101' for this paragraph

I think... it would be best if those who want a 101 looked at buying a book showing vitamin and mineral interactions, or did a google search on it which will save me writing a book :D :D but seriously, its something everyone should bone up on, because infectious diseases are very much affected by minerals and vitamins, and if your child is constantly sick, its an issue any parent needs to get to grips with.

on another note: I have been giving the C to my kids in hot water w/ honey... is it terrible to do this in plastic cup??Well, I would get it into them any way possible. I'd rather you used a plastic cup than kiddo decided to bite the side out of glass.

in explaining something we should all learn in highschool!!Yeah, well they wouldn't do something as sensible as that now would they? They after all support maximum business and income expansion for sectors most useful to Wall Street. If they educated you there, then the pharmaceuticals and doctors would have to earn a real living wouldn't they? And just think what would happen to people's share portfolios?

i hope i'm not 'going to get it' for asking again... before doing my own research.. :blush thank G-d my kids are usually healthy... only one ended up w/ mumps... (should I have tried harder to spread it around??... usually only one or two colds a winter (hope I didn't ttf!!)

can we do an abridged definition session.. fatty acids, vit f , i understand this is found in fish oil, flax seedm oil? can you give examples of the b's (15, 6, 1, 2) ..and those acids (panto... and para.. ) i'm really stuck on those.. are there other more simple terms for these..? one more before i go, how do we know if our bodies are 'acidy'?? I WILL READ UP... so if you're fed up w/ me... i totally understand if your patience is spent! :down

Here you go....

http://www.annieappleseedproject.org/foodsourforv.html

never enough thanks!! :thumb :thumb

:bump:

I was just going to bump this - I've been reading it this morning and it's full of great information!

Okay, one question and sorry if it was already addressed somewhere and I missed it inbetween reading and tending my boys.

What is "ascorbate acid" if the label doesn't specify? Personally I take usually 2000mg of sodium ascorbate with rose hips each night (pill form) but also have some vit c powder that I put in smoothies for the boys and I (I have found I can tolerate 4000mg a day at least), but the label only says "ascorbate acid". I'm calling around town today to see if anyone carries sodium ascorbate, and if not, I'm breaking down and ordering it online.

Thanks! This forum rocks! (And MT, you never fail to amaze me with the amount of information you know and have taught yourself - I hope to have that much information in my head eventually.)

Just another thanks for this info. I'm being forced to shift into high "clean up my diet" gear right now, so this is very helpful.

Any suggestions on how to get the vit c into a 2 year old? She doesn't eat a lot of soft foods I can mix it with.

:bow :bow :bow
Thank you, thank you, thank you, Momtezuma Tuatara for all the awesome info. It's exactly what I needed to know right now! :thumb

A million thank yous...my thank yous, thank you. :bow

Any suggestions on how to get the vit c into a 2 year old? She doesn't eat a lot of soft foods I can mix it with.


In Oj or lemonade. :)

:lurk:

What is "ascorbate acid" if the label doesn't specify? Personally I take usually 2000mg of sodium ascorbate with rose hips each night (pill form) but also have some vit c powder that I put in smoothies for the boys and I (I have found I can tolerate 4000mg a day at least), but the label only says "ascorbate acid". I'm calling around town today to see if anyone carries sodium ascorbate, and if not, I'm breaking down and ordering it online. I've never seen one with ascorbate acid. Here its always ascorbic acid.

You can make it sodium ascorbate by mixing equal quantities with sodium bicarbonate. I just think that mix tastes gross.

Thanks! This forum rocks! (And MT, you never fail to amaze me with the amount of information you know and have taught yourself - I hope to have that much information in my head eventually.)Well, when you get old, grey and saggy like me, you will know much more than I do now, becuase I only got the internet six years (minus four months) ago. You young things should be able to learn and apply at the speed of greased lightening, instead of having to look at various keyboard thingies and think "Now, what does that one do?"

Any suggestions on how to get the vit c into a 2 year old? She doesn't eat a lot of soft foods I can mix it with. Some little tough nuts won't take sodium ascorbate any other way than dry, straight off a spoon :bigeyes:

Any suggestions on how to get the vit c into a 2 year old? She doesn't eat a lot of soft foods I can mix it with.

My kids love it in Tang or Lemonaide. Its the only thing we use Tang for.

My kids love it in Tang or Lemonaide. Its the only thing we use Tang for.

Edited to add that now my 3.5 yo and 6yo can swallow so I just stuff capsules for them. The capsuels hold about 1 gram

Edited to add that now my 3.5 yo and 6yo can swallow so I just stuff capsules for them. The capsuels hold about 1 gram


:topic

How did you teach your lil' one to swallow?? I would love for my 4 yr old to learn, and then he wouldn't have to take his probiotics in powder form :Puke


Some little tough nuts won't take sodium ascorbate any other way than dry, straight off a spoon

Actually, that is how my 14m old takes his. I lick a finger, stick it in the powder and then put it in the inside of his cheek, tryingto bypass the tongue (which is hard when he is trying to lick my finger). I always have some bottled water available and as soon as I get it in him (if I hold him upside down his mouth opens automatically), he gets a swig of water.

This is so useful. I've looked at the general health and wellness threads and it seems that most mamas there don't know as much as the nutrition goddesses that prowl around this forum. :Bow

I've never seen one with ascorbate acid. Here its always ascorbic acid.
You are right - my fingers mistyped. :wink

ETA: So the benefit of taking sodium ascorbate or mixing baking soda with ascorbic acid is to protect the stomach? Do I have that right? I mix it typically in smoothies (except for the pill form I take ... I'm not hip on swigging down a couple teaspoons of sodium bicarb with those), so I'm thinking it won't make much of a difference taste wise. But other than the stomach, why does it need to be done?

Okay, now I gotta admit, I'm overwhelmed by trying to keep track of what all I and my kids need to be taking, in what form, how much of it, and where to get it.

I am ordering the Sodium Ascorbate powder from NOW and I can add that to my kids' and my juice. 50 mgs. per kilogram bodyweight in a child, and 100 mgs. per kilogram bodyweight in an adult, right?

Now, I need a multi. I need one that's kosher or vegan.

I think my kids probably need a multi, at least while I'm upgrading their diet. They're sort of resistant to change. :o The one they take now is the one the pedi prescribed and it has fluoride in it, which I've recently been given to understand is NOT a good idea. Bear with me here, I'm just starting with all this.

I take Acidophilus. This is a probiotic, right? I take 3 a day or so, in capsule form. Should I be giving this to my kids? What about to my nursing baby? Noone here is or has been on antibiotics recently.

Something else I"m missing? Other than making our diets better :bag:. We're working on it...

You are right - my fingers mistyped. :wink

ETA: So the benefit of taking sodium ascorbate or mixing baking soda with ascorbic acid is to protect the stomach? Do I have that right? I mix it typically in smoothies (except for the pill form I take ... I'm not hip on swigging down a couple teaspoons of sodium bicarb with those), so I'm thinking it won't make much of a difference taste wise. But other than the stomach, why does it need to be done?
Youre half way there. Yes, its to reduce the acidity, but it also is to provide the sodium ion.

Since I hope this will go in the archives, and thugh I've put this here before I'll put it again, since it does bear repeating...

MT - I am in shock. Everyone in the health food store tells me that ester C is the best vit C because your body absorbes it slower so your body will take more vitamin c etc, etc....That is incorrect. The physiology of ester c is that for you to get to bowel tolerance you will have to take twice as much, and the mechanics of that is that the calcium is sheared off of the ascorbate, but for the ascorbate to be absorbed the body utilises localised sodium from any source nearby, to split the ascorbate into two molecules, one which the body uses, and the other which is excreted. BUT, before the ascorbate is utilised, the body uses some of it to chelate out the calcium, which when free in the body is dangerous to the body.

Far from being absorbed slower, the reason you need MORE Ester C to get to bowel tolerance is that the body has to divert some ascorbate to get the calcium out, so less is able to be used by the body.

Furthermore, by dragging out sodium of the body to do the job it needs to do, if a person isn't eating salt hand over fist, you can become sodium deficient, which totally bombs the immune system. I know, because because of a mistake I made, I took Ester-C in high doses for 9 months, and my whole immune system crashed. I ended up having to salt my food for about three weeks. Urgh...

I am glad that you mention about it. I have to really look into it becasue I am totally wrong
So what is the best vitamin C to take?

Sodium Ascorbate...

I do like to take a lot of vit c :nut

You said:
Never use Ester C, or calcium ascorbate, except, or unless there is NOTHING ELSE around, and do NOT use it long term. If you MUST use it, you will require about double what you'd need with sodium ascorbate, and if you don't salt your food, then you must if you use Ester C. But remember, if there is any possibility that cancer is an issue... excess calcium in the body makes cancer cells go rampant.

That's not the only reason to not use it though...

you can use ascorbic acid and bicarb, but I'm reluctant to do that, because it can mess with the stomach acidity. IMO its just better to get sodium ascorbate. Again, if you've got nothing else, then AA + sodium bicarb is better than a kick in the rump.

Now, I need a multi. I need one that's kosher or vegan.

I think my kids probably need a multi, at least while I'm upgrading their diet. They're sort of resistant to change. :o The one they take now is the one the pedi prescribed and it has fluoride in it, which I've recently been given to understand is NOT a good idea. Bear with me here, I'm just starting with all this.


I think I'll start a 101 nutrition/immunology thread, okay?

Wow! You mama's are veritible founts of info. It took me a good twenty minutes to read this thread.


:Thanks

MT - I'm going to order some SA online (because no one in this state seems to carry it :irked: ). If it doesn't have bioflavonoids in it, do I then also need to get those? (From what I've been reading, they are important for the whole thing to work.)

I havent found a place to buy just bioflavonoids in the US.

My 3 kids, you may want to look at Rainbow light vitamins. Not sure if they are kosher though or not. I use their kids and prenatals

AmyD,

I have no clue how she learned. I gave her an empty gelatin capsule to chew on and she told me "I swallowed it, I swallowed it." So I gave her a capsule full of C and she swallowed that.

My oldest was 5 when she finally figured out how to swallow. For her it was those pearls of probiotics. They are really small and easy to swallow.

The capsules I stuff with c are big, well huge for a 3.5 yo :lol

Usually places that sell SA online will have bioflavinoids in powder form, and yes, I prefer to put bioflavinoids with my SA, because they are co-factors.

If people want a tablet form more convenient for travelling... a 1 kg bag of white powder might set off some hysterics don't you think? then I use a brand called Natural Factors (Canada) 100% natural fruit chews C 500 mgs one....

momto l&a said:

I havent found a place to buy just bioflavonoids in the US.

My local health food store has just Bioflavonoids for sale. I didn't buy them, so at the moment I can't remember the name brand, but I will check later this week and get back to you. Oh, and I'm in California.

Also, the same store didn't have Sodium Ascorbate on the shelf, but when I asked for it they ordered it from NOW for me, $8.95 for 8 oz. Then 2 weeks later I saw a different brand of SA on the shelf. So, if your hfs carries NOW products, they most certainly should be able to order SA for you.

ETA: :blush Maybe I'm taking back the Bioflavonoids statement, because when I searched the NOW website, and found their Bioflavonoids product, the ingredients actually read:
Vitamin C (as Ascorbic Acid) 100 mg 167%
Citrus Bioflavonoids (37% Total Bioflavonoids as Hesperidin) 1.4 g †
Rutin 100 mg †

Pretty sneaky if you ask me 'cause the front label just says Bioflavonoid Caps.
I'll search on though. :D

Edited to add as my brain must be shot tonight. Mountain Chick, I look forward to seeing what brand the bioflavonoids are. thanks :thumb

I order SA from Bronson as they have the best price I have seen.

Speaking of Bronson they are going to have a buy one get one free in November for vitamin C :thumb

Bronson also has SA in tablet form.

Hmmm Swanson has a bioflavonoid complex (http://www.swansonvitamins.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?storeId=10001&langId=-1&catalogId=10051&SourceCode=INTL070&productId=12614&R=23128&numberOfRows=48&Ntx=mode%2Bmatchallpartial&startPage=0&keyword=bioflavonoids&Ntt=bioflavonoids&N=4294967186&startRowNumber=10&pageNumber=1&Ntk=Level1)

I just bought these:

Citrus Bioflavonoids, CL-7334
Country Life, 1000 mg,
250 Tablets

from iherb.com while I was buying S.A. powder. I'm thinking of getting the little pestel (sp?) thingy to grind them up and add to the SA powder when we take it, instead of having another pill to swallow (I'm beginning to realize that I live on various pills! :lol).

and that's the point. We shouldn't have to. That in itself makes me grumpy.

Usually places that sell SA online will have bioflavinoids in powder form, and yes, I prefer to put bioflavinoids with my SA, because they are co-factors.

If people want a tablet form more convenient for travelling... a 1 kg bag of white powder might set off some hysterics don't you think? then I use a brand called Natural Factors (Canada) 100% natural fruit chews C 500 mgs one....


the Natural Factors - 100% natural fruit chews C500mgs? so this is sodium ascorbate? Is this the product - Vitamin C 500mg NATURAL FRUIT CHEWS ( 180's ) Passionfruit/Peach/Mango ?
I went to the health food store and asked for chewables and they said that they have only powder. I will be traveling in a few months so I would like to get the chewable. I don't want to have any problems with the Custom especially that I am traveling with small baby :lol and like you said, the powder could look really strange :shy :shy :shy

Yes that's the one. I like that one best, but the kids prefer the blueberry, raspberry and Boysenberry, but they are more acid to me..., natural factors is a mix of sodium ascorbate and ascorbic acid, but not only does it have citrus bioflavinoids, it has hesperidin biolflavinoids, rosehips, rutin and silica, so in terms of a mix its the most reasonable of any tablet that I've found.

And I don't get grumpy looks from customs with it.

The funnist I had with "powder" was coming back from my embroidery scholarship. We transfer design onto embroidered foundations with shell powder which comes in small ziplock plastic bags with inscrutible Japanese Kanji on them.

Which can cost the unwary traveller a few hours in a chilly bin while they check to see that it's not something erstwhile...

Besides affecting stomach acidity and to provide the sodium ion, is there any other reason why ascorbate acid is not recommended? And why is stomach acidity so important (other than it breaks down our food)...to prevent ulcers, etc? If my children seem to be tolerating the ascorbic acid I give them daily, should I still switch to sodium ascorbate? For example, my oldest son (almost 6 yo and 67 pounds), receives approx. 3,000 mgs. of C daily when healthy and we up it when he is sick to about 6,500 to bowel tolerance. He takes a host of other supplements and eats 95% organic......am I killing his stomach? If he doesn't seem bothered by it is it because the damage hasn't been done yet (as in I would be seeing physical symptoms to gauge from), or because he likely is receiving the balance he needs of baking soda/sodium ion in his diet? I believe you said equal ratios. 1 part ascorbic acid to 1 part sodium bicarbonate? I believe he receives his sodium ion needs via iodine and calcium citrate. Is there a balance (ratio) equation for sodium ions in relation to the appropriate doses of ascorbic acid, and bicarbonate?

DC

Ok, I have SA in my cart to purchase. What I have here is calcium ascorbate and I understand that is not what i want. Am I reading that my kids also need bioflavonoids?? I can't find a bioflavonoid powder. Would it be better to buy the Natural Factors fruit chews for my kids and crush the tablets (dont want to ruin teeth) since it had bioflavonoids?

Thanks!!!

Never use Ester C, or calcium ascorbate, except, or unless there is NOTHING ELSE around, and do NOT use it long term. If you MUST use it, you will require about double what you'd need with sodium ascorbate, and if you don't salt your food, then you must if you use Ester C. But remember, if there is any possibility that cancer is an issue... excess calcium in the body makes cancer cells go rampant.

That's not the only reason to not use it though...


Sorry to be getting in on the end of this - I haven't read the whole thread (LOTS of info!!) but I wanted to ask this because I keep forgetting. What's wrong with using Ester C? In Prescription for Nutritional Healing by Phyllis and James Balch, they recommend Ester C highly...

Esterified vitamin C (Ester C) is a remarkably effective form of vitamin C, especially for those suffering from chronic illnesses such as cancer and AIDS. It is created by having the vitamin C react with a necessary mineral, such as calcium, magnesium, potassium, sodium or zinc. This results in a form of the vitamin that is nonacidic and that contains vitamin C metabolites identical to those produced by the body. Esterified vitamin C enters the bloodstream and tissues four times faster than standard forms of vitamin C because it moves into the blood cells more efficiently and also stays in the body tissues longer. The levels of vitamin C in white blood cells achieved by taking esterified vitamin C are four times higher than those achieved with standard vitamin C. Further, only one-third as much is lost through excretion in the urine.

I was at both the pharmacy and the health food store today and I ended up getting the non-acid (Ester C? I don't even know. I'm in a new country and there's a new language and I'm never really sure about what I'm getting :D ) because I was so confused - I had forgotten which one you recommended, and I actually even forgot what the book recommended.

Anyway, enough of my going on and on. I'm sorry if this was already answered in the thread.. I'm going to go back and try to read it.

:Thanks

Emergen-C is potassium ascorbate. It is good during labor .

That is incorrect. The physiology of ester c is that for you to get to bowel tolerance you will have to take twice as much, and the mechanics of that is that the calcium is sheared off of the ascorbate, but for the ascorbate to be absorbed the body utilises localised sodium from any source nearby, to split the ascorbate into two molecules, one which the body uses, and the other which is excreted. BUT, before the ascorbate is utilised, the body uses some of it to chelate out the calcium, which when free in the body is dangerous to the body.

Far from being absorbed slower, the reason you need MORE Ester C to get to bowel tolerance is that the body has to divert some ascorbate to get the calcium out, so less is able to be used by the body.


Can this be translated into Dumb for me?? :D :D :D

If I take all this myself, it will get to my cutie patootie through my breast milk, correct? He's only 3 months old.

:bump:

Translation:

That is incorrect. The physiology of ester c is that for you to get to bowel tolerance you will have to take twice as much, and the mechanics of that is that the calcium is sheared off of the ascorbate, but for the ascorbate to be absorbed the body utilises localised sodium from any source nearby, to split the ascorbate into two molecules, one which the body uses, and the other which is excreted. BUT, before the ascorbate is utilised, the body uses some of it to chelate out the calcium, which when free in the body is dangerous to the body.

Far from being absorbed slower, the reason you need MORE Ester C to get to bowel tolerance is that the body has to divert some ascorbate to get the calcium out, so less is able to be used by the body.

I'll try, but it might make it worse.

Ascorbate is split in two by sodium.

One part is excreted, one used.

If you use calcium ascorbate, the calcium shears off.

The ascorbate picks up sodium to split so it can be used.

But because calcium shouldn't be there in the free form, some ascorbate is used to take the calcium out the body.

This leaves you with about half the amount of ascorbate you put in originally.

If you used sodium ascorbate your body could use all of the ascorbate.

So by using calcium ascorbate, in order to get as much as you would need by using sodium ascorbate, you have to take twice as much.

Does that make sense, or is it mud?

I think I'm starting to pick up what you're putting down, MT.
Thanks!

If I take all this myself, it will get to my cutie patootie through my breast milk, correct? He's only 3 months old.

Can anyone answer this for me? I would like to be certain DS is getting enough vit C and vit A but he's just a little guy. Will he get enough from me or should I actually get him some liuquid vitamins to take?

Whether he gets enough from you, depends on whether you take enough for yourself in terms of daily needs, and there is a bit left over for him.

You can tell over time, by how easily they teethe and how many infections they get. But vitamin C isn't something that works just on its own. That's why the nutrition thread. It has to be in context of the whole...

Besides affecting stomach acidity and to provide the sodium ion, is there any other reason why ascorbate acid is not recommended? And why is stomach acidity so important (other than it breaks down our food)...to prevent ulcers, etc? If my children seem to be tolerating the ascorbic acid I give them daily, should I still switch to sodium ascorbate? For example, my oldest son (almost 6 yo and 67 pounds), receives approx. 3,000 mgs. of C daily when healthy and we up it when he is sick to about 6,500 to bowel tolerance. He takes a host of other supplements and eats 95% organic......am I killing his stomach? If he doesn't seem bothered by it is it because the damage hasn't been done yet (as in I would be seeing physical symptoms to gauge from), or because he likely is receiving the balance he needs of baking soda/sodium ion in his diet? I believe you said equal ratios. 1 part ascorbic acid to 1 part sodium bicarbonate? I believe he receives his sodium ion needs via iodine and calcium citrate. Is there a balance (ratio) equation for sodium ions in relation to the appropriate doses of ascorbic acid, and bicarbonate?
Can you explain to me how he gets his sodium from iodine and calcium citrate?

Anyone can take ascorbic acid provided their system is alkaline and they get enough sodium in their diet.

Whether you get salt with iodine, depends on whether you use iodised salt, which I don't, because I rely on iodine in foods. Theoretically, if a person is getting enough salt with a bit to spare, they will have enough for the ascorbate to rob, to use to split into two parts.

But if like me, you don't normally salt your diet, then you'd have to eat high salt foods, to allow for the ascorbate.

The beauty to me of sodium ascorbate is that you don't have to think about it.

It goes into your body, and there are no other biochemical processed diverted or interfered with, because the ascorbate has what it needs with it, to do the job right there on the spot.

It is to me, biochemically more efficient to use it that way.

Whether he gets enough from you, depends on whether you take enough for yourself in terms of daily needs, and there is a bit left over for him.

You can tell over time, by how easily they teethe and how many infections they get. But vitamin C isn't something that works just on its own. That's why the nutrition thread. It has to be in context of the whole...

Thank you, MT :Bow

I'll be digesting the Nutrition Thread later.

alisaterry, all I do is take info from one pile and shove it to another; call me the unholy shovel if you like, but quit the bowing, okay?

Any iriot can shovel stuff.

OK. You are an Unholy Shovel. Let's turn THAT into a smilie!

:bag:

After reading all the labels at my hfs for bioflavinoids, I regret to inform you that I didn't find what I was looking for. And never found it in powder form anywhere...not even online!

Sorry ladies. :(

Anyone can take ascorbic acid provided their system is alkaline and they get enough sodium in their diet.

Whether you get salt with iodine, depends on whether you use iodised salt, which I don't, because I rely on iodine in foods. Theoretically, if a person is getting enough salt with a bit to spare, they will have enough for the ascorbate to rob, to use to split into two parts.

I think these last few posts have cleared up an immense amount for me! This maybe a nutrition thread question, but is there some way of checking for the alkaline in your system? We use salt (in moderation), so I'm beginning to think that we're ok on that aspect. I've been wanting to improve our alkaline intake, but I'm not sure how I know what my system is like let alone improve upon it.

And while anyone can shovel stuff, not everyone is willing or able to do it. Hence all the bowing smilies (which are very well deserved. :wink ) Thank you for enlightening and inspiring me to learn more.

:bag:

After reading all the labels at my hfs for bioflavinoids, I regret to inform you that I didn't find what I was looking for. And never found it in powder form anywhere...not even online!

Sorry ladies. :(

Can someone else help out here in USA? If I, from a banana republic backwater hanging off the bottom of the earth have always been able to get powdered bioflavinoids, it would be amazing to me to find that in the whole of USA, no-one makes it...

I can't help - I ended up ordering online from www.iherb.com and could only find them in tablet form. So, each morning I grind them up between two spoons (I need one of those pill grinder things ... the clay cup thing and the thing you hold in your hand - what in the world is that called?) and add to my smoothie.

http://www.koshervitamins.com/shop/stores_app/Browse_Item_Details.asp?Item_ID=437

http://www.lef.org/newshop/items/item00138.html


eta (found the link): http://www.swansonvitamins.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?storeId=10001&langId=-1&catalogId=10051&SourceCode=INTL070&productId=12614&R=23128&numberOfRows=48&Ntx=mode%2Bmatchallpartial&startPage=0&keyword=bioflavonoids&Ntt=bioflavonoids&N=4294967186&startRowNumber=10&pageNumber=1&Ntk=Level1

Behold the power of google :lol

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=bioflavonoid+powder&spell=1

After reading all the labels at my hfs for bioflavinoids, I regret to inform you that I didn't find what I was looking for. And never found it in powder form anywhere...not even online!

It's spelled "bioflavonoids" maybe that is why you are having trouble.

http://store.yahoo.com/iherb/bioflavonoid.html
http://www.vitaminshoppe.com/store/en/browse/sku_detail.jsp?id=CL-1935
http://www.vitaminshoppe.com/store/en/browse/sku_detail.jsp?id=BB-1344
http://www.vitaminshoppe.com/store/en/browse/sku_detail.jsp?id=NT-1043
http://www.vitaminshoppe.com/store/en/browse/sku_detail.jsp?id=NT-1041

I know Solgar, TwinLab and Country Life makes them too, which should be in well stocked hf stores.

(I need one of those pill grinder things ... the clay cup thing and the thing you hold in your hand - what in the world is that called?) and add to my smoothie.

mortar and pestle?

Iherb also has the NOW brand in caps that you can just open, I like that store, fast shipping.

Okay, so the best I've been able to find and get my family to take daily is the TRader Joes "Chewable Oranges and C", which I've always assumed to be the same as the Natural; Factors. It has 500mg ascorbic acid and sodium ascorbate, though it doesn't break down how much of each and 25 mg bioflavonoid complex (also doesn't give details). Are these ratios correct? Is this an acceptable supplement. If not, and I get the powdered bioflavonoids, what is the ratio of the bioflavonoids:sodium ascorbate ?
Thanks!

Normally its 1 part bioflavonoids, to 5 sodium ascorbate.

Ok, so I recently received my order from the US - 3 lbs of SA and a bottle of bioflavonoids in capsule form. The problem I have now, is that the bioflavonoids taste EXACTLY like a really sour grapefruit and no one will take it. This from kids who were taking mint-flavored fish oil by the spoonful. I have tried putting it in juice, yogurt, with honey. So far, no go. I am open to suggestions. Please! :innocent

Just to clarify, orginally I said my hfs had Bioflavonoids for sale...but when I went back and actually read the labels, they all included Vitamin C. I don't want Vit. C with them because I am planning on adding my SA to it.

Actually I just wanted Bioflavonoid powder, not tablets, and not capsules, so a big thank you to chlobo for posting this link http://www.koshervitamins.com/shop/stores_app/Browse_Item_Details.asp?Item_ID=437

I used google when I was looking (and spelled it correctly :D ) and found these two also, but I would need to buy both (can you say expensive!) and mix them to get the complete complex: http://www.iherb.com/rutin.html & http://www.iherb.com/hesperidin.html All the rest are pills and have vitamin C or other things mixed in them. If you take a good look at the google link provided by momto l&a you'll see what I mean.

I just want my little plastic baggie of white powder! :lol

Patty, if they can swallow capsules, just give it to them that way. If not, whack it up in a fruit smoothie?

Since the Swanson's Bioflavonoids are capsules, I assume you can just empty the contents & mix with something. It's got to be powder inside, right?

Question, I've been doing some research on bioflavonoids and I'm finding that they are abundant in citrus. Well, we take our SA in organic OJ once a day (or a bunch of small doses throughout the day if we are fighting something), so would that provide the 1:5 ratio needed of bio:SA?

I don't know. I take mine in orange juice too, but still add the bioflavinoids. The OJ is mainly to conceal the taste, and cover my bases as to other nutrients as well...

Twin Labs also makes a bioflavonoid capsule (500mg). I have some on special order from the hfs. In order to get the 5:1 ratio in the correct amounts for my kiddos (who don't need 2500mg of SA on a daily basis), I am planning to measure and premix my powders. Is there any reason we can't do this?
My ds 5 drinks his in a small amount of oj, but my dd 18 mo, flat out refuses that, but she will let me rub the powders on the inside of her cheek. Is there any reason not to do it this way for her?

So many questions! I think I've learned more from this thread and the nutrition one than I did in my stint in grad school! :lol

I have been trying to find out if heat kills vitamin C.
For some reason it is stuck in my head that heat will kill vit c. Can somone tell me please whether I am wrong or correct? :nut

I have been trying to find out if heat kills vitamin C.
For some reason it is stuck in my head that heat will kill vit c. Can somone tell me please whether I am wrong or correct? :nut

Absolutely does.

The amount of vitamin C killed by pasteurizing milk is equal to the entire citrus crop in the U.S. (source The Untold Story of Milk by Ron Schmid ND)

OK I am breastfeeding. If I have a vitamin (regular daily) he screams all afternoon. If I have a vitamin c he screams all afternoon. Juice is on the list I cannot drink, even apple makes him colicky. Just now at 5-6 months I can get away with a cup of grape juice now and then. Though grape juice gets to me. Fruit flavoured waters also cause problems. Anyway how can I get vitamin c into our bodies without causing him discomfort? Sodium Ascorbate you all mention in this thread as being what to get. Could that make a difference?

If taking ascorbic acid is bad, does that mean taking supplemental HCL, or vinegar, is bad too? My naturopath has me taking Betain HCL capsules.

If taking ascorbic acid is bad, does that mean taking supplemental HCL, or vinegar, is bad too? My naturopath has me taking Betain HCL capsules.Do a google search, research it.. ask her why, and then decide.

Nothing wrong with cider vinegar. It helps keep the body less acid.

OK I am breastfeeding. If I have a vitamin (regular daily) he screams all afternoon. If I have a vitamin c he screams all afternoon. Juice is on the list I cannot drink, even apple makes him colicky. Just now at 5-6 months I can get away with a cup of grape juice now and then. Though grape juice gets to me. Fruit flavoured waters also cause problems. Anyway how can I get vitamin c into our bodies without causing him discomfort? Sodium Ascorbate you all mention in this thread as being what to get. Could that make a difference?

I don't advocate supplementing as a normal course of events. You are short changing yourself if you do. The key to growing good babies in utero and outside utero via breastmilk is getting your nutrition right at least 18 months before conception.

Traditionally, indigenous people have the concept of special diets for women planning to become pregnant, during pregnancy and afterwards... why is it we have lost that?

If your diet is superb then you will need minimal supplementation. If your diet is not, then revamp it. But I do NOT advocate a vitamin supplement. The foundation of good health isn't so much vitamins as minerals.

They should be any pregnant/nursing woman's concern.

So the plan of action should always be a top diet.

Then, if like me you have an immunodeficiency, then supplement. But rarely will you need to supplement in a way that causes a baby problems.

Some people supplement so that they can have their cake and eat it i.e. eat junk and get the extra in tablets. It never works that way actually. All they are doing is shortchanging everyone.

So, in your case, particularly as your baby is seemingly sensitive, I would start with your diet.

If you feel its fine, just drop your supplements.

Have you studied the nutrition immunity thread?

Okay, I reread this and thought more about it. If you do have to supplement, you have to know what you are doing.

OK I am breastfeeding. If I have a vitamin (regular daily) he screams all afternoon. What is a regular daily vitamin supplement? What is in it?

If I have a vitamin c he screams all afternoon.What do you call vitamin C and how much? If it has aspartame in it and some C tablets do, you are going to have trouble with a big T.

Juice is on the list I cannot drink, even apple makes him colicky.Have you tried to figure out why? Is it the acidity? Is there some preservative or colouring in it, that might be an allergen?

Just now at 5-6 months I can get away with a cup of grape juice now and then. Though grape juice gets to me.What do you mean, that grape juice gets to you. If it gets to you, are you surprised it gets to your baby?

Fruit flavoured waters also cause problems. What are fruit flavoured waters? Are they ingredients that could be allergens?

Anyway how can I get vitamin c into our bodies without causing him discomfort? Like I say, what do YOU mean by vitamin C, and in what form and with what are you taking it? If you supplement, WHEN do you supplement?

Sodium Ascorbate you all mention in this thread as being what to get. Could that make a difference?It might. But you still have to know what you are doing, and why, or even if its necessary.

The other factor in all this is your immune system, whether your husband has sensitivities, what state your gut flora is in, whether your baby has had antibiotics at all. There are a huge number of factors that relate to why a baby does what it does.

And if your medical history is like mine, and such that there is potential for problems, then its more important to know that. And so advice isn't easy if we don't know the whole picture as to what makes up everything that your baby came from, and your health because you are the conduit of his food.

I read a post by MT a few days or maybe weeks ago that sometimes taking SA during an illness can drag out the illness. I couldn't find this post when I tried searching back. Can anyone explain this further?

I thought that SA could generally cause the illness to shorten or be less severe, not the other way around. If memory serves, MT was saying that sometimes when she feels a cold coming on, she'll hold off on the SA and then start taking it later on in the illness when the symptoms kick in a little more (or something like that?)

So how do you know what illnesses to start SA with right away, and which to let develop a bit before hitting them with SA? My H has been in some state of minor cold-like illness for a few weeks now. He's taking SA (but he seldom takes it to bowel tolerance :irked:) and I'm wondering if the reason(s) why he can't kick the cold might have to do with: 1) the fact that he's not taking the SA to bowel tolerance to get the full benefit of the Vit. C; and/or 2) he shouldn't have started the SA at all until his symptoms developed a bit more.

Anyone have any thoughts on this?

Well, everyone is an individual.

If I get a cold I stop taking SA because it will just hang around with me.

I think that's because I've not yet fine tuned the minerals in my body yet, but also, because I so rarely get a cold now, I don't have too many opportunities to experiment to see what would work. I have found that now that I have my prevention better, that I'm becoming more ignorant about what to do at the bottom of the cliff :D

With my body there are tell tale signs that its a cold. For a start, the mucus with thicken up and become stringy before it starts. I feel it in the tonsillar crypt. I don't get those symptoms on any other infection type, so I know when its going to be a cold.

Last week I started to feel very tired and heavy and wondered if I had a cold coming, but the mucus didn't thicken, so I ploughed into the Vitamin C, and I think the problem was my annual spring-clean when I pig out on grapes, because it came right.

I wait until my cold is full blown and I'm over the peak of green before picking up the vitamin C again. But, having just written up the iron post on the nutrition thread, it dawned on me that maybe the problem was that until recently, I had anaemia, and the iron deficiency was a factor in it.

So next time I feel a cold coming on, I'm going to plough into the iron rich foods and see if that makes a difference.

With other infections like measles, mumps, chickenpox ~ anything that has a fever element (colds don't have a fever element with me) I don't hold back the vitamin C.

I'm not an expert enough on it.

I just jury rig what works best for me.

My ideal end point is to get my body to the point where it hardly ever happens, but as I said, that could leave you in a situation where you've forgotten what to do when it does happen.

But my husband is my model. His diet is fantastic and he simply NEVER gets colds. He just watches everyone else with them. Sometimes he will say he's got a cold, but his version of a cold is two drips from the right nostril and one sneeze.

So that's where I'm aiming. He's got far more halos than I have though and eats a lot more vegetables than I do. But he tells me if I would spent less time in front of the computer and more time working hard physically I would be able to have room to eat more than a budgie does.

Catch 22.

With your husband, I would feed him iron rich foods until they come out his ears and see what happens then. If it still hangs around, stop the vitamin C, and let the cold do its thing. After all, they a great cleaner outers of junk, and perhaps he has more junk to get rid of than the body can manage itself right now.

But he tells me if I would spent less time in front of the computer...
:lol
You'd better not listen to him!! :D :D

"Ridiculous Dietary Allowance" by Dr Steve Hickey and Dr Hilary Roberts
available at Lulu.com
Its been some time since I read it. It does say that the half life for vitamin C in the body is 30 min and you should take it through out the day.
I'm not sure if they distinguish between the different forms.

Also a question for MT. I add 1/4 tsp SA in a liter of water and I try to drink 2 to 3 liters a day, is the SA still good. I would hope the SA doesn't some how go bad or inactive.

OK I need some help with products here. I spent half an hour at The Apothecary yesterday. They seem to have every supplement out there. But no sodium ascorbate. Their specialist said they used to have one but don't anymore.

Whole Foods doesn't have it either.

BUT.... both places have a version of Vitamin C called "calcium ascorbate"... "Ester-C" I think it's called. It says it's very gentle on the stomach.

Thoughts? Suggestions?

Dooldad, I have done that too. It should be fine.

Periwinkle, what do you mean by "any thoughts"?

MT don't bust my balls! What do you mean what do I mean? I mean I need help!! :D

Pretty please?

Twin Labs also makes a bioflavonoid capsule (700mg). I have some on special order from the hfs. In order to get the 5:1 ratio in the correct amounts for my kiddos, I am planning to measure and premix my powders. Is there any reason we can't do this?
My ds 5 drinks his in a small amount of oj, but my dd 18 mo, flat out refuses that, but she will let me rub the powders on the inside of her cheek. Is there any reason not to do it this way for her?


If I may commit the unpardonable sin of quoting myself, does anyone know the answers to my questions?

Thanks! :D

MT don't bust my balls! What do you mean what do I mean? I mean I need help!! :D

Pretty please?

Jumping in to say that EsterC is NOT recommended! I believe that in dire circumstanced ascorbic acid and sodium bicarb. combo can be used.

Just jumping in, as I have just finished reading the entire thread. Excellent, excellent.

I read that Ester C is not recommended here and elsewhere. Why is that? I can't find any info about that.

Does anyone have info about a brand of Sodium Ascorbate I can ask the Apothecary to order for me? I'd prefer not to have the crystals or chewable because of damage to the tooth enamel.

We get the NOW brand from our co-op special order (the 3lbs size). But it might be cheaper to order it online from that site that someone else posted before.

I read that Ester C is not recommended here and elsewhere. Why is that? I can't find any info about that.

Does anyone have info about a brand of Sodium Ascorbate I can ask the Apothecary to order for me? I'd prefer not to have the crystals or chewable because of damage to the tooth enamel.

If you read the whole thread, all of your questions will be answered. :wink

:duh Oh okay. I've read the whole thread twice I think - once initially and once a couple of months ago. I guess I forgot. Thanks. :)

posted earlier:

MT - I am in shock. Everyone in the health food store tells me that ester C is the best vit C because your body absorbes it slower so your body will take more vitamin c etc, etc....

MT: That is incorrect. The physiology of ester c is that for you to get to bowel tolerance you will have to take twice as much, and the mechanics of that is that the calcium is sheared off of the ascorbate, but for the ascorbate to be absorbed the body utilises localised sodium from any source nearby, to split the ascorbate into two molecules, one which the body uses, and the other which is excreted. BUT, before the ascorbate is utilised, the body uses some of it to chelate out the calcium, which when free in the body is dangerous to the body.

Far from being absorbed slower, the reason you need MORE Ester C to get to bowel tolerance is that the body has to divert some ascorbate to get the calcium out, so less is able to be used by the body.

Furthermore, by dragging out sodium of the body to do the job it needs to do, if a person isn't eating salt hand over fist, you can become sodium deficient, which totally bombs the immune system. I know, because because of a mistake I made, I took Ester-C in high doses for 9 months, and my whole immune system crashed. I ended up having to salt my food for about three weeks. Urgh...

Quote:
I am glad that you mention about it. I have to really look into it becasue I am totally wrong
So what is the best vitamin C to take?


MT: Sodium Ascorbate...

I don't remember the brands recommended, though...there were a few. :thumb

I dont care for the NOW brand of SA. Its differant somehow.

bump

wow what a long thread! If anyone is still watching this, is there any benefit to taking more than 500 mg of sodium ascorbate (or whatever it is called, it's a bit too late for me to be thinking clearly right now!) if that does the trick for me? I've been taking 500 mg a day of regular Vitamin C for almost a year now and haven't had a cold since I started doing that (I usually get 2 colds a year)...I do take an extra 500 mg if I get a sore throat which is how my colds always start out. I've had a few sore throats but no colds. I am breast-feeding if that makes any difference...

MT, if you're still monitoring this thread, I was wondering, if someone isn't eating much dairy, is calcium ascorbate really such a bad thing? I can get it easily, but sodium ascorbate has to be special ordered from my local HFS for some reason.

Never use Ester C, or calcium ascorbate, except, or unless there is NOTHING ELSE around, and do NOT use it long term. But remember, if there is any possibility that cancer is an issue... excess calcium in the body makes cancer cells go rampant.

Hey now, that's rather disconcerting information. Particularly since calcium supplementation is widespread in this country. Are there any studies, data, references to this effect? What about calcium supplements? Is it only the ascorbate form that is contraindicated? Talking mainly in terms of a cal supp. Which I'm not taking right now but am considering for various reasons tho still doing my darndest to get it thru diet--fermented dairy, liberal use of celtic sea salt, almonds, broccoli, rooibos tea and the like.

MT, if you're still monitoring this thread, I was wondering, if someone isn't eating much dairy, is calcium ascorbate really such a bad thing? I can get it easily, but sodium ascorbate has to be special ordered from my local HFS for some reason.

They have it at Vitamin Life in Redmond:

http://www.vitaminlife.com/product-exec/product_id/13728

Is where we get it. If you order online the prices are cheaper then you can pick it up in the store.

I just read "Ridiculous Dietary Allowance" again. It is very interesting reading about how the FDA set the Vit C RDA.

One thing they talked about was the very fast half-life of Vit C. Once the blood is at a certain concentration, the half-life of vit C is 30 min. To achieve higher levels, you need to dose throughout the day.

They also mention absorption of C, when you take 1000 mg in one dose, only 500 mg are absorbed, if you take 2000 in one dose only slightly more is absorbed. But if you take 1000 mg twice a day, your body can absorb 500 mg each dose. They recommend something like 500 mg 5 or 6 times a day, spaced out every 4 hours.

This is for healthy people, not under stress or sick. Then the amount absorbed, and required is much, much greater. The problem is that not much research takes this dosing into account.

This is probably why some research on high dose C doesn't show great results. One dose in the morning of 3000 mg is almost the same as a dose of 500 mg.

Hope this helps.

Originally Posted by Momtezuma Tuatara
Never use Ester C, or calcium ascorbate, except, or unless there is NOTHING ELSE around, and do NOT use it long term. But remember, if there is any possibility that cancer is an issue... excess calcium in the body makes cancer cells go rampant.

Ok, this is still bothering me. I've spent a couple weeks trying to find info on this and nothing, nada, zip. Everything I've read, everyone I've talked to--mainly NDs and supplement pharmacists--say that calcium ascorbate is the form of C to take, being the most bio-available and easiest on the gut. No one seems to have heard of it being implicated in disease or excess calcium in the body. Actually I did find one article that stated that older folks shouldn't use it because of the possibility of calcification in the blood due to increased use of other calcium supps. But that was it. Also it's the formula that's all over the shelves at the HFSs.

I have a newish bottle of buffered C in the form of ascorbyl palmitate, calcium ascorbate, magnesium ascorbate and potassium ascorbate given me by my ND. Unless I can find any studies/data to the contrary I'd like to continue taking it. So MT if you're still monitoring this thread could you pretty please direct me to any studies/data/references etc that support this premise. Thank-you :)

Thanks for bumping this back to the first page, I was also trying to find some more info on the sodium ascorbate/metabolism question. Some links or sources of info would be great! I posted on the nutrition/immunology thread, but I guess I should have posted here...let me find my previous post...it was a pretty good read for anyone who is interested:

I have one concern, MT...regarding the Sodium Ascorbate powder that was mentioned a while ago. Is that amount of sodium wise to take when doing a large amount of Vit C, like say 4000 - 5000mg? There is about 131 mg sodium/gram of vit C, so that's 655mg of sodium your'e taking. Is all that sodium used up in the metabolism of Vit C? Or is that going to hang around in your body?
What about using Magnesium Ascorbate as an alternative? Or would that be akin to taking calcium ascorbate, in that over the long term it would cause a sodium deficiency?
I'm much more comfortable taking extra magnesium than sodium....as excess magnesium is easier to eliminate from kidneys than sodium is. The body actually has a mechanism in the kidneys to conserve sodium at the expense of Mg and K.

I did some study on electrolyte balance and how it relates to health, and know that problems occur when faced with high sodium/calcium and low pottassium/magnesium. Sodium is found in majority in blood and plasma and Pottassium and Magnesium in the cells...and this state is not fixed, the electrolytes are in constant motion in what is called the day/night cycle. During the day, sodium, calcium, and other bits and pieces move slowly into the cells displacing some of the Mg and K. At night, Mg and K should move back into the cells, allowing for the relaxation of muscles during sleeping hours. (Which would explain some of the symptoms of Mag deficiency...insomnia, not feeling rested upon waking, muscle cramps etc)

Which brings us to the problems that occur when Na (sodium) and Ca are in excess, which is common in the diet most people have in the west. Na moves into the cells during the day, but is not removed at night by Mg and K....the cells become acidic and metabolic problems occur....calcium enters to buffer the acidity, and drops out of solution, thereby 'calcifying' the tissues. This is a big problem in many degenerative conditions. (Interestingly, when calcium drops out of solution, the body will pull more from the bones to keep the blood calcium levels stable...)

My shift has been to a low sodium and high K (potassium) and Mg diet. Along with other detox tecniques, and Mag supplementation (along with other important co factors like B vits especially B3 and 6, Vit C and E, zinc, selenium, and trace minerals, EFAs. (I don't supplement with calcium)
Initially there was a great shift of stored sodium in my body, with symptoms like my palms peeling, hang nails, mouth ulcers, muscle stiffness etc....and 3 or 4 years down the line, I must say, I think there is still more to be removed....although most of those initial symptoms have cleared up....

So - this brings me back to my initial worry of the sodium content of Sodium Ascorbate. I would be very interested in the source of your research on this, maybe you could give me a link.

A great book which deals with this subject is Max Gerson's "A Cancer Therapy- results of 50 cases",He talks about the role of electrolyte balance in disease, a great man he was, and way before his time.

The site http://www.natnut.co.uk
(sorry I don't know if I inserted that link properly) Thats the college I studied at in England and I think they have a forum although I have not been to it in ages. The college has a great philosophy though, and worth looking into.

All the best on your quest for knowledge!

Alvie, on the site that you posted, I couldn't find anything about nutrition, just about the school itself. I regret now freaking out and throwing out a $23 bottle of calcium ascobate -- I'm thinking it's really not necessarily so bad, in that I wasn't taking huge doses and anyway I'm not doing much dairy these days (it gives me migraines) or eating many leafy greens either. Oh well, live and learn.

Yeah, all the nutrition info was on the forums which don't seem to be working right now....sorry 'bout that....
Anyway, the important thing of what I learned there was the fact that sodium excess can be a real problem, not just for hypertension, but for general health...

Alvie, I was under the impression that it's specifically the chloride form of sodium that's been implicated in hypertension.

I believe too much sodium in any form can lead to imbalances, especially if there is an underlying magnesium and potassium deficiency. Magnesium and pottassium are 2 minerals commonly low in most diets. Sodium chloride happens to be the form that is used so prevalently , so yes, I would think that it is implicated with hypertension and other illnesses. Naturally occuring sodium in vegetables usually has a corresponding amount of potassium (2 or 3 times as much potassium than sodium) so would be less likely to cause an imbalance.

Which is why I'm inquiring about sodium ascorbate...I am just concerned about that much sodium causing an imbalance, and would like to research it more.

That book I mentioned before, Max Gerson's cancer therapy talks about this topic. His nutritional therapy involves a strict vegetable and fruit based diet with some whole grains and they do about 13 fresh vegetable juices a day. Thats a whopping amount of potassium. Plus they take extra potassium in supplement form. No salt allowed. Potassium and sodium have an atagonistic relationship in our body, and this rush of potassium into the cells would displace the sodium that is stored there. He noticed that these patients excreted great amounts of sodium over a period of time, and after some time on this diet, their cancer was healed. Which led him to the theory that somehow this excessive sodium lodges itself in human tissue and causes tumor growth (among other things) as excess sodium in our cells changes the pH to acid and causes metabolic disturbances.
(sadly, like all other amazing breakthroughs in natural medicine, his facility was shut down by the American government and The Gerson therapy was banned here I guess the AMA felt a bit threatened- there are still some clinics in Mexico)

Usually the more I learn, the more questions I have....and I was also interested in MT's research about free floating calcium causing cancer to florish...interesting.

Thank-you for all the food for thought on sodium. I'm reading a fascinating book on the history of salt right now and it throws this element into such a different light.

What's your feeling about celtic sea salt? It's loaded with trace minerals and I would think that it would have a more supportive effect on the body than regular iodized table salt.

Have you found anything on the negatives of free-floating calcium?

Yes, thats what I use, but in quite strict moderation, I think I've had the same 1 lb bag for about a year now....and it still has about a third left in it!
One think I have realised about the nutrition/health subject is that there is so much contradiction out there! I have also read stuff about the benefits of celtic sea salt, and about the miracle of supplements like coral calcium.

One thing about calcium I did learn, is that it will act as a buffer in your body.(A buffer is a substance that neutralises an acid) So when your cells are acidic, calcium rushes in there to buffer the acidity, and in so doing it will drop out of solution, thereby calcifying and becoming hardened. Your blood likes to maintain a homeostasis (constant levels at all times), so when calcium drops out of solution your body will try to get calcium from another source...i.e. your bones. So Osteoporosis is not calcium deficiency but more a calcium misplacement as it is all going into your cells. To now take calcium supplements would be extremely counter-productive, and actually contribute to calcifying your body even more. Conditions like arthritis, atherosclerosis, stiffening up with age, are all signs of this acidity/calcification process and I wouldn't be surprised if calcified cells become malignant as MT suggests. What these people need to do more than anything is to alkalize their bodies.

I think what I have learned in college makes alot of sense to me and following the basics of it has worked for me for the past 4 years.

I am still debating wether to go out and get a bottle of Sodium Ascorbate.....I have read this thread with interest and know that Vit C therapy can be a marvellous thing.

Does anyone have any info on Magnesium Ascorbate? How would that form fare?

Hmm that's interesting about the alkalinity. I wonder if the effects of calcium ascorbate would be mitigated in a body that uses a daily dose of apple cider vinegar, lemon juice and other alkalinizing supports. I have yet to come on board fully with the SA because I haven't been able to find anything contraindicating CA. Not that there isn't anything just that I haven't been able to find it. Your description gives me a few more details to work with. I have, however, found lots of supportive research on SA in specific situations.

Yes, contradictions seem to abound in the nutritional realm. But then we are beings full of contradicitions ourselves aren't we? :) It makes one feel a bit :nut tho. I've heard alot of negatives to do with coral calcium, mainly poor absorption and the presence of lead. Haven't done enough research to know how well-founded those claims are.

What about lowish levels of sodium in the blood despite liberal use of css? As to the mag, this is one of the mineral ascorbates in my C prep, along with calcium and potassium and ascorbyl palmitate, tho not in that order. And not that that gives you any info on it :shrug

:bump:

Ok, this is still bothering me. I've spent a couple weeks trying to find info on this and nothing, nada, zip. Everything I've read, everyone I've talked to--mainly NDs and supplement pharmacists--say that calcium ascorbate is the form of C to take, being the most bio-available and easiest on the gut. No one seems to have heard of it being implicated in disease or excess calcium in the body. Actually I did find one article that stated that older folks shouldn't use it because of the possibility of calcification in the blood due to increased use of other calcium supps. But that was it. Also it's the formula that's all over the shelves at the HFSs.

...

Most all the Dr's who have used C to treat various ailments all used sodium ascorabte. Klenner, Cathcart, Belfield (vet), Kalokerinos are some names that come to mind.

:bump:

I believe too much sodium in any form can lead to imbalances, especially if there is an underlying magnesium and potassium deficiency. Magnesium and pottassium are 2 minerals commonly low in most diets. Sodium chloride happens to be the form that is used so prevalently , so yes, I would think that it is implicated with hypertension and other illnesses. Naturally occuring sodium in vegetables usually has a corresponding amount of potassium (2 or 3 times as much potassium than sodium) so would be less likely to cause an imbalance.

Which is why I'm inquiring about sodium ascorbate...I am just concerned about that much sodium causing an imbalance, and would like to research it more.

That book I mentioned before, Max Gerson's cancer therapy talks about this topic. His nutritional therapy involves a strict vegetable and fruit based diet with some whole grains and they do about 13 fresh vegetable juices a day. Thats a whopping amount of potassium. Plus they take extra potassium in supplement form. No salt allowed. Potassium and sodium have an atagonistic relationship in our body, and this rush of potassium into the cells would displace the sodium that is stored there. He noticed that these patients excreted great amounts of sodium over a period of time, and after some time on this diet, their cancer was healed. Which led him to the theory that somehow this excessive sodium lodges itself in human tissue and causes tumor growth (among other things) as excess sodium in our cells changes the pH to acid and causes metabolic disturbances.
(sadly, like all other amazing breakthroughs in natural medicine, his facility was shut down by the American government and The Gerson therapy was banned here I guess the AMA felt a bit threatened- there are still some clinics in Mexico)

This is my concern as well. I have a hard time resisting salt on certain foods (like eggs and beans), so I hate to add more sodium to my diet with the SA, unless, as you're wondering Alvie, it's completely used up by the body in processing the C. I've heard someone else mention (sorry, I can't remember who or on which thread), a natural source of vitamin C, acerola, which already contains the needed bioflavonoids, without all the sodium. I'd like to look into this one some more.

bump!

I have one concern, MT...regarding the Sodium Ascorbate powder that was mentioned a while ago. Is that amount of sodium wise to take when doing a large amount of Vit C, like say 4000 - 5000mg? There is about 131 mg sodium/gram of vit C, so that's 655mg of sodium your'e taking. Is all that sodium used up in the metabolism of Vit C? Or is that going to hang around in your body?I thought I had answered this, but seemingly, its still an issue.

Why would sodium presented with ascorbate be an issue, when it is used to split the ascorbate molecule in order to use it, and excreted in the process?

What about using Magnesium Ascorbate as an alternative? of what biological function would that be, in terms of the biochemical way ascorbate is utilised? Assuming the form of magnesium was bioavailable, it would be better than calcium because we are a calcium excess society and chronically magnesium deficient, but it still wouldn't solve the issue that ascorbate requires a sodium ion in order to be split.

Or would that be akin to taking calcium ascorbate, in that over the long term it would cause a sodium deficiency?Mag asc, would cause the same sodium depletion as calc asc (since it would still be pulled from the body in order to deal with the ascorbate), with the difference that at least you wouldn't be contributing to even more calcium excess, which would need to be chelated out.

At least the magnesium would perform an alkalinising function, and redress some of the chronic magnesium shortages that are prevalent in society today.

I'm much more comfortable taking extra magnesium than sodium....as excess magnesium is easier to eliminate from kidneys than sodium is. The body actually has a mechanism in the kidneys to conserve sodium at the expense of Mg and K.Like I say, if you try it and it works for you fine. I'm assuming then, that you will have sufficient sodium naturally in your diet to allow for processing of ascorbate. If that is not the case, then you might pay the same price that I did. And its' not pretty.

I know many people who have tried calcium ascorbate, and believe that vitamin C is useless, becuase it made their conditions worse, not better. When they change to SA, their health changes.

But, and you might not like this, I don't listen to people in health food shops. While they like to think they are altruistic and knowledgeable, many of them are as much parrots as are CDC-quoting doctors.

I did some study on electrolyte balance and how it relates to health, and know that problems occur when faced with high sodium/calcium and low pottassium/magnesium. Absolutely, but the main key for potassium is magnesium, as its magnesium that unlocks the cell walls to potassium.

Sodium is found in majority in blood and plasma and Pottassium and Magnesium in the cells...and this state is not fixed, the electrolytes are in constant motion in what is called the day/night cycle.True. But long term, if you take very high doses of ester C, you are going to deepen the depths to which sodium must be taken, and that can have dire consequences.

During the day, sodium, calcium, and other bits and pieces move slowly into the cells displacing some of the Mg and K. At night, Mg and K should move back into the cells, allowing for the relaxation of muscles during sleeping hours. (Which would explain some of the symptoms of Mag deficiency...insomnia, not feeling rested upon waking, muscle cramps etc)

Which brings us to the problems that occur when Na (sodium) and Ca are in excess, which is common in the diet most people have in the west. Na moves into the cells during the day, but is not removed at night by Mg and K....the cells become acidic and metabolic problems occur....calcium enters to buffer the acidity, and drops out of solution, thereby 'calcifying' the tissues. This is a big problem in many degenerative conditions. (Interestingly, when calcium drops out of solution, the body will pull more from the bones to keep the blood calcium levels stable...)But the sodium in sodium ascorbate is irrelevant to this equation since it is utilised in the process and isn't treated like salt you shove onto tomatoes by the pinchful.

My shift has been to a low sodium and high K (potassium) and Mg diet. Along with other detox tecniques, and Mag supplementation (along with other important co factors like B vits especially B3 and 6, Vit C and E, zinc, selenium, and trace minerals, EFAs. (I don't supplement with calcium)
Initially there was a great shift of stored sodium in my body, with symptoms like my palms peeling, hang nails, mouth ulcers, muscle stiffness etc....and 3 or 4 years down the line, I must say, I think there is still more to be removed....although most of those initial symptoms have cleared up....

So - this brings me back to my initial worry of the sodium content of Sodium Ascorbate. I would be very interested in the source of your research on this, maybe you could give me a link.

My sources are from many books. Irwin Stone, Steve Hickey, Professor Clemetson's texts, and Dr Kalokerinos's books.

I have talked to many of the doctors who use vitamin C, and most favour sodium ascorbate. Some use a combination of sodium, magnesium and potassium ascorbate in some of their patients, but again, that is done on a case by case assessment, since some people will alter their diet, and others will not.

however, for the purposes of this discussion, I will type out what is written in Dr Kalokerinos's book "Vitamin C":

The facts: molecular weights.

Molecular weight of Sodium Ascorbate = 198
Molecular weight of sodium = 23
i.e. % of sodium in sodium ascorbate = 12% (Actually 11.6%)If 1 heaped teaspoonful Sodium Ascorbate - 4 grams then 12% = sodium ion i.e. 480mg.

3 heaped teaspoonsfuls per day = 1.44 grams of sodium per day.

The recommended intake of sodium on a low salt diet is 2.0 grams per day, so 1.44 grams i still well short of the recommended sodium intake i.e. even by orthodix standards, 3 heaped teaspoonfuls of sodium Ascorbate per day does not represent a lot of sodium.
As a matter of interest the molecular weight of NaCl = 57, i.e. 40% of the weight = sodium. I teaspoonful of salt would give more sodium than 3 heaped teaspoonfuls of sodium Ascorbate.

SODIUM OF SOCIUM ASCORBATE IS HANDLED DIFFERENTLY IN THE BODY TO SODIUM OF SODIUM CHLORIDE AND SODIUM OF SODIUM BICARBONATE.

At the kidney interface the ascorbate anion is excreted along with a dosium cation as its major co-ion (pg 89 - 90, Vitamin C - It's molecular Biology and Meidcal Potential, Dr Sherry Lewin Ph.D)

I.e. Ascorbate drags out sodium ion as its major co-ion when its is excreted via the kidneys. Very small amounts only of K+, NH4-, Ca++, Mg++ and some heavy metals are co-excreted.

The sodium of sodium cchloride is excreted along with several coions and does not have the advantage of the chloride anion dragging sodium out through the kidney tubules in the same way as the Ascorbate anion drags out the sodium ion.

In short, Alvie, do what you want. I will stick with what the doctors who use vitamin C most, have found to be the least destructive for body biochemistry as a whole.

If you disagree with them, that is your choice.

A great book which deals with this subject is Max Gerson's "A Cancer Therapy- results of 50 cases",He talks about the role of electrolyte balance in disease, a great man he was, and way before his time.

The site http://www.natnut.co.uk
(sorry I don't know if I inserted that link properly) Thats the college I studied at in England and I think they have a forum although I have not been to it in ages. The college has a great philosophy though, and worth looking into.

All the best on your quest for knowledge! He was a man before his time, and a doctor here, Eva Hill, was cured of cancer through his methods.

That doesn't mean that he knew all there was to know about vitamin C.

I believe too much sodium in any form can lead to imbalances, especially if there is an underlying magnesium and potassium deficiency. Magnesium and pottassium are 2 minerals commonly low in most diets. Sodium chloride happens to be the form that is used so prevalently , so yes, I would think that it is implicated with hypertension and other illnesses. But sodium ascorbate bears little relationship to sodium chloride. I don't understand why you don't understand that.Naturally occuring sodium in vegetables usually has a corresponding amount of potassium (2 or 3 times as much potassium than sodium) so would be less likely to cause an imbalance.

Which is why I'm inquiring about sodium ascorbate...I am just concerned about that much sodium causing an imbalance, and would like to research it more.hopefully you can research the issue yourself and come to an answer that satisfies yourself.

That book I mentioned before, Max Gerson's cancer therapy talks about this topic. It does NOT talk about using sodium ascorbate in the manner in which I am talking about using it. His nutritional therapy involves a strict vegetable and fruit based diet with some whole grains and they do about 13 fresh vegetable juices a day. Thats a whopping amount of potassium. It's actually a whopping amount of sodium from plants as well. Which I agree is not the same as sodium chloride.

Plus they take extra potassium in supplement form. No salt allowed. Potassium and sodium have an atagonistic relationship in our body, and this rush of potassium into the cells would displace the sodium that is stored there. He noticed that these patients excreted great amounts of sodium over a period of time, and after some time on this diet, their cancer was healed. Which led him to the theory that somehow this excessive sodium lodges itself in human tissue and causes tumor growth (among other things) as excess sodium in our cells changes the pH to acid and causes metabolic disturbances.
(sadly, like all other amazing breakthroughs in natural medicine, his facility was shut down by the American government and The Gerson therapy was banned here I guess the AMA felt a bit threatened- there are still some clinics in Mexico)In a culture that uses sodium chloride to excess this may be so. But not all cultures do that.

Usually the more I learn, the more questions I have....and I was also interested in MT's research about free floating calcium causing cancer to florish...interesting. It's not my research. It's in the medical literature. They KNOW that free calcium encourages cancer growth.

They also know that vitamin C discourages it as well.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2005/01/050111162230.htm

and that may be the reason.

Most all the Dr's who have used C to treat various ailments all used sodium ascorabte. Klenner, Cathcart, Belfield (vet), Kalokerinos are some names that come to mind.

And if you talk to them they use sodium ascorbate, becuase they know its the form that works best with the least biochemical disturbance.

However, I'm keeping my eye on liposomal vitamin C, as it works on a different concept, and could be useful. I have reservations right now, but am waiting to see the results of further research.

To suggest that these people are idiots for using sodium ascorbate is akin to saying that doctors are right in not using it because they believe it can cause kidney stones.

Reviving this thread with a question....(so sorry if I missed the answer, I did read the whole thread!)

What Vit C supplement would you suggest if you are trying to treat gum disease and trying o get pregnant? I know too much C can cause miscarriage.

I currently take Rainbow Light Prenatal One which contains 100 mg of ascorbic acid.

If I am not pregnant this month I will be having my gums cleaned out (sound fun??) right away. I really want to treat it, but want to do so safely.

Thanks for any help.

Reviving this thread with a question....(so sorry if I missed the answer, I did read the whole thread!)

What Vit C supplement would you suggest if you are trying to treat gum disease and trying o get pregnant? I know too much C can cause miscarriage.

I currently take Rainbow Light Prenatal One which contains 100 mg of ascorbic acid.

If I am not pregnant this month I will be having my gums cleaned out (sound fun??) right away. I really want to treat it, but want to do so safely.

Thanks for any help.

Call me oblivious... but I have never heard about C causing miscarriage. I'm getting mixed info from Google... Mom- what's your take on that?

LB, I am looking for a link, but of course, can't find it. I will keep looking through my stuff. That is what I have read, that too much C can cause early m/c's.

I am glad this thread has been reactivated. I made my own sodium ascorbate with ascorbic acid and baking soda. I put it into water and YUCK!! The salty taste from the baking soda was making me gag. Gross. Anyone else having this trouble? I even tried mixing in some juice and it was still gross. Would it taste any better if I bought it already made?

Any advice, tips, suggestions would be greatly appreciated because I really want to take this.

As I understand Klinner had over 300 woman he had take SA everyday of their pregnacy, non of them had a mc while taking C.

The Russian Study from what I understand was poorly done.

I am courious to see what MT has to say about she knows about C and mc...

Mt, I havent heard of liposomal vitamin C, what is it? Will I learn more from google?

I read that Klenner paper when I got pregnant with my ds (right after an early miscarriage, oddly enough). I decided to take those doses of C. I sometimes took more than the 10 grams in the 3rd trimester, if I caught a cold and felt my body needed extra.

I have to say I had all of the results that were promised. I had an excellent pregnancy, easy UC labor and birth, a very bright, alert and healthy child and no (new) stretch marks. I think C in pregnancy is wonderful! This is the first I've heard of a connection to miscarriages. I have heard of a possible link between C deficiency and pre-eclampsia though.

Is Sodium Ascorbate okay to take while nursing? If so, should the amount you take daily be different?

I am glad this thread has been reactivated. I made my own sodium ascorbate with ascorbic acid and baking soda. I put it into water and YUCK!! The salty taste from the baking soda was making me gag. Gross. Anyone else having this trouble? I even tried mixing in some juice and it was still gross. Would it taste any better if I bought it already made?

Any advice, tips, suggestions would be greatly appreciated because I really want to take this.

I buy the empty gelcaps and make my own capsules.

Thanks for the advice chasmyn. Could you please brief me on the process of making gelcaps? For example, where do I buy them? How many caps do you take at one time to get the correct dose? Any tips on how to fill them to get the most into them? I can surely take it this way! Do you think it affects absorbtion or anything?

TIA.

Thanks for the advice chasmyn. Could you please brief me on the process of making gelcaps? For example, where do I buy them? How many caps do you take at one time to get the correct dose? Any tips on how to fill them to get the most into them? I can surely take it this way! Do you think it affects absorbtion or anything?

TIA.

Cap m Quik makes a capsule filler and tamper: http://www.cap-m-quik.com/faq.html

I got mine for about $10 for the kit online (I forget where.) The link also talks about sizing of capsules. I got size 'O', which holds about 1/4 tsp of powder I believe. Since 1/4 tsp = 1000mg of the type of SA I get (Source Naturals), this is perfect for me.

The gelcaps can be gotten at any vitamin shop or HFS or online. The gelatin dissolves faster than the veggie caps, so are optimal, IMO.

Excellent info. Thanks a lot!

Will someone please tell me about bioflavanoids and vit. c?

I thought sodium ascorbate was the best thing to take (it has helped both myself and dds) but aren't you supposed to give vit. C w/bioflavanoids for proper absorption?

I'm confused. I switched dd2 to a brand w/bioflavanoids and I don't think it's having the same effect as the SA did.

That is the theory of it, though I have found that SA "works" in acute situations without.

But I never take it without normally... I buy SA powder, citrus bioflavinoids powder, and mix with tangelo or orange juice.... and hot water. But you could use any of the bioflavinoids.

I have some bioflavonoid powder & its tastes baaaddddd. Are there any that taste good?

Tastes fine with tangelo juice...

I found bioflavonoids in a caplet (NOW brand, I think I bought them at iherb.com).

MT, I read an old post of yours in another thread where you mentioned taking 1 part bioflavonoids to 5 parts SA. Is that still the ratio you recommend?

Also, if I'm taking high doses of SA to help with gut healing, is dividing it into 4 doses a day enough? Right now I'm taking 16 grams/day, and I think I will have to go close to 25 grams, or possible more, before I get to bowel tolerance.

hey, could we get this thread sticky? I think it is such a great resource!

The first sign of vitamin C deficiency is red gums where the collagen bonds have broken down, and the cells are going spongy, and they bleed when brushed. Vitamin C deficiency is THE primary cause for most gum disorders such as "gingivitis".

But if you have gum redness, then you can also be sure that the rest of your body inside is going the same way.

now I know what my body is missing!! thanks MT :D is AA alright to take? we have nothing else except babys SA tabs from hylands, and I wanna keep them for him.

Just did a search for threads on Sodium Ascorbate so I could ask a stupid question, I know I read this thread before and don't recall this coming up, my apologies if it has been covered.

Can someone explain to me why the Sodium part of Sodium Ascorbate is not a problem? Is it beacuse it is "used" completely in the absorption of the Vit C?

I ask beacuse high blood pressure runs in my family of origin (though none for dh and I) and we do salt our food...

Thanks in advance to anyone who can help me understand :).

now I know what my body is missing!! thanks MT :D is AA alright to take? we have nothing else except babys SA tabs from hylands, and I wanna keep them for him.
They make baby sodium ascorbate tabs? I had no idea!

They make baby sodium ascorbate tabs? I had no idea! yup, they are a little expensive though.

just wanted to jump in and post our experience with sa. dd came down with her first cold yesterday and after reading the sage advice in this thread i started dosing her and myself (as a nursing mom) with sa. she had sniffles, sneezing a lot and was very out of sorts (but still her smiley self, even with snot coming out of her nose and watery eyes, poor thing!) 24 hours later she is doing much better, i can tell she feels better. yesterday afternoon she had some green mucus so i was a tad worried that a secondary bacterial infection was setting in, but i kept dosing both of us and this morning her nose is much less stuffy and the mucus clear and is no longer green. we licked this thing in a day and a half.

all i gotta say is :thumb and thank you!!!

(also my allergy symptoms are much reduced since taking sa!)

by the way, if you live in an area where you have henry's markets (http://www.henrysmarkets.com/app/henrys/index.php)...it's 25% off of all supplements right now so it's a great time to stock up!

ps...i second comfybuns vote to make this thread a sticky.

please?

yup, they are a little expensive though.

I would love to hear where you got these. Over the internet? From Hylands directly or from another source? How are they taken? Like Hylands teething tablets?

This would make taking Vit C so much easier for us. Thank you for the information.

I would love to hear where you got these. Over the internet? From Hylands directly or from another source? How are they taken? Like Hylands teething tablets?

This would make taking Vit C so much easier for us. Thank you for the information.

I searched and found these:
http://www.hylands.com/products/vitaminc.php

http://www.childorganics.com/homeopathic-remedies.htm

[QUOTE=Momtezuma Tuatara]It depends on the child. I start at 250 mg per kg of body weight. 1 kg = 2.2 pounds. so your 32 lb one, is 14.5 kgs, x 250 mgs = 3,636 mgs over waking hours.QUOTE]

I was so excited about the Hylands but with having to give him ~ 3,600 mgs - that would be an awful lot of tablets and quite expensive.

For those of you with young ones - the Hylands are only $3.30 through the Frontier co-op. If you join and order with a group, having a $250 minimum, there are no shipping charges.

I never use tablets.

Waste of time, and money.

Most kids will take sodium ascorbate.

I can't see how taking tablets makes it easier. Most kids I know much prefer having it as a drink.

Emergen-C is handy to have on hand, and kids love it.

But you might find that expensive too.

Just did a search for threads on Sodium Ascorbate so I could ask a stupid question, I know I read this thread before and don't recall this coming up, my apologies if it has been covered.

Can someone explain to me why the Sodium part of Sodium Ascorbate is not a problem? Is it beacuse it is "used" completely in the absorption of the Vit C?It is used not in the "absorption" but in the splitting of the ascorbate molecule. Sodium is the only ion that will do that.

I ask beacuse high blood pressure runs in my family of origin (though none for dh and I) and we do salt our food...

Thanks in advance to anyone who can help me understand :). Why do people think that salt is the cause of high blood pressure?

Maybe stress runs in your family and that's the real problem.

Can someone explain to me why the Sodium part of Sodium Ascorbate is not a problem? Is it beacuse it is "used" completely in the absorption of the Vit C?

This site is about animals but it helps to answer your question. It is more likely the chloride part of table salt, sodium chloride, that causes high blood pressure problems and not the sodium.
http://www.belfield.com/article12.htm

Why do people think that salt is the cause of high blood pressure?


I *knew* when I wrote it that someone would throw me for a loop and say that:lol . I am still very much in the learning curve between trusting modern medicine and learning how things really are. Thanks for the article cloak! :)

:notes:

I would love to hear where you got these. Over the internet? From Hylands directly or from another source? How are they taken? Like Hylands teething tablets?

This would make taking Vit C so much easier for us. Thank you for the information.

I got mine in a big hylands kit that I brought, but you can buy them seperatly at whole foods in the baby dept.

I never use tablets.

Waste of time, and money.

Most kids will take sodium ascorbate.

I can't see how taking tablets makes it easier. Most kids I know much prefer having it as a drink.

Emergen-C is handy to have on hand, and kids love it.

But you might find that expensive too.

we use the tablets right now because ds is still under 1 and wont drink anything more than a mouthful of anything but breastmilk. So the tablets work for us. As he gets older, I'm definatly going to get powder and have emergen-c on hand in the car and other places.

Why do people think that salt is the cause of high blood pressure?
because the medical world drills it into everyone. Dh and my FIL are constantly being told to watch their sodium intake, I don't care either way. If salt was a killer, people in the 1800's would have died from all the salt they injested from salted meats.

we use the tablets right now because ds is still under 1 and wont drink anything more than a mouthful of anything but breastmilk. So the tablets work for us. As he gets older, I'm definatly going to get powder and have emergen-c on hand in the car and other places.
My dds will drink the powder mixed in w/anything - even water. It's my new constipation remedy. I found out dd1's *bowel tolerance.* :p

My dds will drink the powder mixed in w/anything - even water. It's my new constipation remedy. I found out dd1's *bowel tolerance.* :p :lol thankfully ds has a low bowel tollerance, 3 tablets every 15 mins for an hour, and every 30mins after that, and usually within 2-3hrs hes at bowel tolerance. thankfully he doesnt get sick much :D

I've been giving ds Natural Factors Vit C chews (500 mg ascorbic/SA combination w/ bioflavonoids). Is this a bad idea? I worry about tooth enamel problems and the sugar in them, but it's an easy way to get the C in him. Should I try for powder or tablets instead?

Natural Factor Chews are okay. I have them on hand all the time, because our youngest is a mechanic, and he will pop a couple of them easier at work, than messing with powder...

If expense is your worry, then powder is much cheaper.

Natural Factor Chews are okay. I have them on hand all the time, because our youngest is a mechanic, and he will pop a couple of them easier at work, than messing with powder...

If expense is your worry, then powder is much cheaper.

Thank God, because I scoured the area HFS looking for SA, and this was the only thing I could find (besides workers who kept trying to tell me I wanted Ester-C. No, I need Sodium Ascorbate. I think you're looking for the buffered C... NO I AM LOOKING FOR SODIUM ASCORBATE! :dizzy: )

Thanks so much for your help, MT. Can I send you a plate of cookies or something?:wink

There must be a reason that SA is sold only in powder/crystal form. It seems that it would be easier for people to take if it were in capsule form (yes, caedmyn, I am looking into getting a capsule stuffing machine). Does anyone know the reason for this?

Momtezuma Tuatara - you said the chewables are okay but would there be a concern about tooth enamel if taken daily? Does it make a difference that it's buffered?

TIA.

I have learned so much from this thread, and am so grateful for all of you who know so much more than I do about this.

I have been through pertussis with my oldest son (now 22 mo) when he was 2 mo old. I know that it is treatable/survivable. Now my 8 wk old nephew has all the signs and symptoms, and my 10 wk old daughter has been around him.

I'm going tonight to Wild Oats to get them both the Hylands Vit C tablets, which contains SA. I can't tell if it's 25 or 30 mg according to their website (http://www.hylands.com/products/vitaminc.php) but according to the previously posted dosing info, that's like 63 tablets a day?? (at about 14#)

Also, where is the nutrition/immunology thread that MT started? Could someone link to it?

Also, where is the nutrition/immunology thread that MT started? Could someone link to it? its a sticky at the top of the vaccination forum.

Natural Factor Chews are okay. I have them on hand all the time, because our youngest is a mechanic, and he will pop a couple of them easier at work, than messing with powder...

If expense is your worry, then powder is much cheaper.

Whew! I just bought a new bottle and was afraid I'd need to toss it. :)

I'll second the offer to send you cookies, MT!

Momtezuma Tuatara - you said the chewables are okay but would there be a concern about tooth enamel if taken daily? Does it make a difference that it's buffered?

TIA. If you want good strongth tooth enamel, (and to stop worrying about it) there are various things to consider.

Good strong enamel can withstand most things (except perhaps a direct hard crunch on an osso bucco bone :rolleyes ) and good strong hard enamel is got through making sure that all the minerals related to strong teeth are provided, like boron, silica, and all the other natural bone minerals.

A book basic book for much of this is Your Vital Child by Mark and Angela Stengler.

Beyond that, I'm a great fan of toothpicks.... :p

There must be a reason that SA is sold only in powder/crystal form. It seems that it would be easier for people to take if it were in capsule form (yes, caedmyn, I am looking into getting a capsule stuffing machine). Does anyone know the reason for this?

I have a capsule stuffing machine. It's called "my fingers". Used to put dolomite in capsules, since dolomite is something that I gag on any other way.

1) I don't think there is an easier way of taking SA than in powder form, apart from maybe Liposomal, but that's expensive.

2) Vested interests come into play, and convenience. Many people, even in the natural remedy field, like expensive looking "hip" tablets in the shapes of bears, crocodiles, snakes or whatever, to make it more "fun" for kids to take and parents to give. I mean, if you are out in your SUV with Doc Martens, and the latest pram, who wants to be dealing with something as basic as powder?

It's much nicer to have a bottle of the latest, and greatest, don't you think?

Never mind that the "science" behind that latest and greatest might be junk.

3) As far as tablets go, Natural Factors have got a reasonable mix there. And lets face it. There are times when it is nicer to eat one's dark chocolate with almonds, than cutting a chunk off the 1 kg block. :D :D :p

Even I like things swept up at times.

But for everyday important grunge, powdered bioflavinoids and SA does me just fine.

Don't you think cookies would be powder by the time they got here? :nut

Besides the only cookies I like are a recipe called "cowpat cookies".

:p

Try find that one.

:rotflmao

we use the tablets right now because ds is still under 1 and wont drink anything more than a mouthful of anything but breastmilk. I used to express breastmilk (while the baby looked on incensed and almost apoplectic) and then I'd mix a few pinches of SA into that, and hand it back in a sippy cup.

It went down just fine, with that smug self satisfied face almost saying "how dare you take what was mine in the first place"

Course some babies might view the result as "polluted"....

I used to express breastmilk (while the baby looked on incensed and almost apoplectic) and then I'd mix a few pinches of SA into that, and hand it back in a sippy cup.

It went down just fine, with that smug self satisfied face almost saying "how dare you take what was mine in the first place"

Course some babies might view the result as "polluted"....

:lol thats how roman sees it.....he wont even take expressed milk in a cup, if its not from the tap, hes not taking it :p but he will willingly take his hylands tabs......so whatever works for us right now.

Question, I've been doing some research on bioflavonoids and I'm finding that they are abundant in citrus. Well, we take our SA in organic OJ once a day (or a bunch of small doses throughout the day if we are fighting something), so would that provide the 1:5 ratio needed of bio:SA?
I don't know if someone has already answered this, but I thought I'd reply anyway. I am pretty sure that bioflavonoids are in the white part of the skin of citrus fruit, not in the juice. So drinking OJ won't provide any bioflavonoids.

Yup.

This thread is fascinating!!! I'm so glad MT is here to explain everything to us--especially to those of us who are new on our journey!!

You don't need me. Scour second hand book shops for books on vitamin C, and read everything you can get your hands on, then you will know the answers anyway...

My brain hurts.

Try chinese herbal remedies, then you will REALLY know what disgusting is.
:lol My teas always tasted like gutter water. My mom's OMG smelled awful. She got prunes to sweeten the mix but I don't think it made a difference. :sick

I don't know if someone has already answered this, but I thought I'd reply anyway. I am pretty sure that bioflavonoids are in the white part of the skin of citrus fruit, not in the juice. So drinking OJ won't provide any bioflavonoids. So can we just eat the white stuff? :scratch
*Off to start reading the huge nutrition 101 thread.*

technically you can eat any part of an orange or citrus fruits, my brother eats lemons like apples (i know....gross). But it can be bitter.

technically you can eat any part of an orange or citrus fruits, my brother eats lemons like apples (i know....gross). But it can be bitter.

I wish, but here it seems all citrus fruits come with a layer of wax. :irked: At least in the supermarket they do.

So can we just eat the white stuff? :scratch
*Off to start reading the huge nutrition 101 thread.*Yes. I do.

And you can make a muffic recipe that makes a liquid base mix of oil(1/4 cup) , molasses (2 tbsps ~ ours is blackstrap, much stronger than USA...), (1/2 cup liquid h) honey, 1 egg, 1 large banana, and 1 orange skin and all... but not the pips. You blend that until thick and creamy then add dry ingreds= 3 cups bran, 1 cup wholewheat flours, 1 cup raisins (My kids hate raisins, so I leave them out) 1/2 cup wheat germ, 2 tsps baking powder, 2 tsps baking soda, and sometimes I add cinnamon.

12-18 muffins, well greased, better still lined. They can stick. 375 o F, 15 - 20 mins until firm to touch. If not lining, let cool a bit in the tins, or they might not come out well...

I defy anyone to be constipated after some of them.