Completely Hopeless?

[~Coyotebones~]

I don't even really know if there is much point to posting, but I guess I want to know how my situation looks to those of you who are already in the Netherlands.

My situation is kind of strange, but I will try my best to explain. My dutch parents moved to California in the 1960's, and my mother moved back to the Netherlands about 10 years ago. My sister is married to a Spaniard and lives in Spain. I have been married to an American for almost 10 years. My problem is that I want to live in the Netherlands and be nearer to my family. I was there often as a child so I really have a homesick feeling for it, though I never lived there. I speak Dutch pretty well, and Friesian almost fluently. I can also read dutch, though slowly. I can't write it well at all. I do have dutch nationality, but it seems that the laws are very much against us moving there because my husband is American. The problem is that I stay home with our son, and we prefer to keep it that way (There seems to be a minimum income that _I_, as the dutch citizen have to be able to provide for my family.) My husband does not speak dutch and is somewhat shy, though he is willing to move to the Netherlands. He just doesn't know how to go about getting a job there (he is a system administrator for a computer department at a university.) We were there for 3 months in spring 2006 trying to work things out, but if felt pretty hopless. All of the jobs were microsoft (he does lynux,) and not knowing dutch seemed to be a problem. He also doesn't have a degree, which is also very much frowned upon by the dutch.

I am so heartsick that we can't seem to work this out. What drives me crazy is that the dutch seem so welcoming to refugees, but it is a problem for me to come even though I have the dutch nationality and my family is there. :gloomy: : I think most of you are probably married to Dutch people that already had adequate jobs when you got there, so you won't have much to say about my situation. I just thought I would put this out in the world. I guess I never give up hope that someone can help.

[sarahmck]

Hi there,

My situation is half similar to yours and half opposite. I'm American and my husband is Dutch, but my husband is also a Linux System Administrator and also doesn't have a college degree.

As a Dutch citizen, you can, of course move to the Netherlands regardless of your income. Are your children Dutch citizens? If not, they can be.

I believe that the standard to bring a spouse in is that you have to make 110% of the minimum wage (or some equivalent concept in NL). I guess the rule is that it has to be you making that money, not your immigrant spouse. It seems hard to believe, though, that there isn't some way around that as long as your household income is at least 110% of the minimum wage, regardless of who is making that wage. As a system administrator, your husband would certainly make that much.

I do know that there are ways around this 110% law (if it turns out that it does have to be you, not your husband, who makes the money). For example, if you have a healthy bank account balance, you can use that in combination with a permanent employment contract as the basis for a petition for a residence permit for your husband.

I will ask my husband for more ideas about this, as he's much more knowledgeable about the subject than I am.

Where in the Netherlands are you hoping to move? Does your husband have any job prospects?

Sarah

[rzberrymom]

Hi Michelle,

I'm not sure how much help I'm going to be, because I can't for the life of me remember where I read this. But, maybe it will jog someone else's memory.

I read an article a few years ago about how much stricter the Dutch immigration laws are compared to the E.U.-wide immigration laws. So, they mentioned the growing popularity of Dutch citizens temporarily living in Belgium with their non-Dutch spouses--apparently, if you live in the E.U. with your non-Dutch spouse for a certain amount of time, it is possible to then immigrate to the Netherlands under the E.U. requirements rather than the Dutch requirements. I can't remember the amount of time, but I remember thinking that it was very reasonable.

The difference in the requirements is huge. My DH is German and I'm American, and it took us 5 minutes and about 25 euros for me to be allowed to live here. But if he had been Dutch it would have meant many more requirements for me (months of language and culture classes, tests, much more money). I guess it makes sense that the requirements are stricter--they assume that I'm not going to stay here long-term with my German husband, but someone immigrating with a Dutch spouse is likely to stay. But, apparently there are ways around the requirements.

I'll try to hunt down the article. You also might want to try posting on Expatica.com--they have a Netherlands forum and then a sub-forum for U.S. issues. They're really helpful with bureaucratic/legal questions.

And maybe this is an obvious one, but perhaps your husband could try to start learning Dutch. If you don't go the Belgium route, he'd be required to take classes when he gets here anyway. So, it might be worth it to start learning now (maybe through an online course), and then he would have a head start both with immigration and with job hunting.

I hope it works out for you guys! I know how hard it is to be away from family--we LOVE LOVE it in the Netherlands, but we're moving back to the U.S. soon because it's been so hard to be away from family.

Katie

[sarahmck]

Here's my husband's take on it:

She's right that it is she who must meet
the minimum income level. It's not the total household income that is
looked at, because her husband won't even have the right to work until
he is given a residence permit.

They have two assets in their arsenal, as I see it:

1. She has family in The Netherlands.
2. Her husband is American.

Asset 1 means that her family might be able to financially sponsor him,
but I'm not sure that's possible. Even if it is, it might be very
complicated.

Asset 2 means that they can move to The Netherlands first and then
figure out all of this later. Even knowing how strict the rules are,
it's very hard for me to imagine that some kind of solution couldn't be
found.

For example, perhaps she could register a BV in The Netherlands and pay
a certain amount into it each month from their savings in the US. Then
she would technically have an income. Of course, this might be viewed as
fraud, but even if it isn't, there are likely rules about how long the
BV must have existed, or how long she must have regularly been earning
an income. The authorities weren't born yesterday.

Another factor against them is that she, whilst Dutch, has never lived
in The Netherlands. That means she's almost certainly obliged to do
inburgering, as far as I understand the rules. Her husband would be,
too, unless he can get the 30% ruling.

All in all, the best approach might be to try to get a Dutch company to
hire him. Then they could take care of all the immigration mess. They'd
get the 30% ruling, be able to drive, etc., etc.

Another card to play is the children. They _are_ dutch, because their
mother is Dutch. That means the father may qualify to move to The
Netherlands after the mother and children have moved, on the basis of
'gezinshereniging' (family reunion).

So, the three possibilities that may or may not exist:

- Find a way to demonstrate that she has sufficient income.

- Try to get him a job in The Netherlands whilst still in the US.

- Apply for immigration on the grounds of family reunion, which probably
requires the wife and children to move first.

If they're desperate, though, they do have the right to all move
together and then try to appease the authorities somehow from this end.

Perhaps I'm too optimistic, but it's hard to imagine it ever coming to
deportation, simply because I've never heard of such a case. Inventive,
resourceful people will always find a way, as long as they don't hang
themselves by doing something blatantly illegal.

The fact he doesn't have a degree shouldn't matter, except perhaps in
the case of finding a company to sponsor him. I'm not sure if such
sponsorship requires a degree, but I wouldn't be surprised. Even if it
does, perhaps an exception can be made for sufficient work experience,
as was the case with me in the US.

[LilWin]

I don't know all the ins and outs about this since I'm Dutch and so is my DH and family, but I do read the papers every day and there has been much talk about this.
The strict rules for immigration were partly made because there were so many North African people who married someone from their homecountry. They called them "import brides", and were believed to have limited possibilities for integrating in Dutch society.
Because of that, I believe the rules for family reunion have become even more strict and I'm sure they require the person who's here first (usually the Dutch one I guess) to earn the 110% of minimum income as Sarah mentioned.
You can also check out this website (it's in English): http://www.iom-nederland.nl/home.asp

Or this one (also in English), a board where you can also post questions:
http://buitenlandsepartner.nl/forum/viewforum.php?f=172

Good luck! I'm sure it's not completely hopeless. Who knows, maybe the Dutch MDC Tribe can welcome you sooner than you think! :)

[LeftFootGreen]

You might be able to use the Dutch American Friendship Treaty, seen here:

http://www.expatlaw.nl/dutch_american_friendship_treaty.htm

It would require your husband to set up his own company doing Linux things and invest 4500 Euros in his own business. If that isn't possible, you might be able to get better advice from this website on immigration.

Good luck!

[LeftFootGreen]

About speaking Dutch: if you are able to move back to the NL, your husband will have to go through some form of "inburgering". So that will ensure that he achieves some level of Dutch proficiency relatively quickly.

[gabry]

Coyote, I'm not sure if you remember our pm's from some time ago, but I do believe that the Belgium (or rather EU-) route that Katie mentioned is your best bet.
You, as an EU citizen, have the right to establish yourself in any EU country, with your (immediate) family of any nationality. It can be for work, to study, to retire, or to look for work. Buitenlandsepartner.nl is indeed a great resource for this, they actually have the Belgium route spelled out on their website, with all the details of which papers you need at every step of the way etcetera.. On the forums are lots of people with tons of experience, including some immigration lawyers.
You can claim your "EU rights" after 6 months of staying elsewhere, and then move to Holland, without any income requirement, inburgering or anything. However, you lose the EU rights if you were to need "welfare", important detail to know.
I'm Dutch, dh is Filipino, and we came to Belgium from the US, all at the same time, and it was pretty straightforward. (we're staying in Belgium for now, but that's another story).
I do think the "gezinsherenigingprocedure" is the one that has the income requirements for the Dutch partner, and may also require you to come first. When I checked with the Dutch Immigration service a few years ago, it was not possible for anyone else but the partner to sponsor (or be the "guarantor" for) my dh.

Best of luck to you both!

[simonee]

My situation is similar to yours: I am Dutch, dh is US, we moved to the Nl from California 4 years ago (we'd lived in the US for 10years). We had nothing, but he got his residency anyway... I think you have the right to live in the NL anyway, your children can be NL citizens, and as far as I know he's allowed as an 'immediate family member" like a pp said.


Odd... my dh is now studying to be a LInux system admin after being "houseman" for 4 years... I'd love to hear more about how to find work and stuff!