LDS Mamas #12

[leavesarebrown]

Here tis. Did I do it right?

[alissakae]

It looks like you did it perfectly :D

[leavesarebrown]

So do we send out a notice to all participants or anything? Or does everyone pretty much find the new thread on their own?

[leavesarebrown]

Thanks for the two book recommendations.

Stacy--I think everyone read LaHaye cause it was the only book on the subject in BYUs bookstore! And I would guess in Deseret book stores until these few recent ones by LDS authors. Oh, and Human Intimacy by Victor Brown.

Ldsapmom--no, I believe the statistic was how many women never had orgasms during intercourse at all, ever. I'll see if I can round up the exact stat (from Kitzinger's Womens Experience of Sex or this other orgasm book I read last year). Except I think I lent the book Kitzinger book out.

Lisa1--yeah, the sugar thing is obnoxious. They actually gave out WHOLE BAGS of Skittles to each little nursery kid not long ago in our ward as a treat. Teachers since then have done a better job of checking w/ parents about appropriate snacks or object lessons. Good thing since many of the kids in our ward seem to have food allergies (milk & cheese, wheat, nuts...) I don't think it is rude or self-righteous to say "Oh, thanks, but we don't give them sugar" or simply "No, thank you."

youngnhappy--how do you ever get a break with or without hubby? Or have you found that you haven't needed breaks?

So back to the original q which started this whole intimacy discussion. How do you other co-sleepers negotiate private time--especially when night nursing?

[mothernurture]

Quella,
thanks for your comments! it's great to hear that the discussion is useful to posters. Where in Oregon are you? I'm up in the Seattle suburbs.

Ok, here's a radical question: does anyone know of any human sexuality/intimacy books written by women (LDS or not)? I feel a book written by a woman would be more helpful, in many ways.

I think I read parts of the Victor Brown book but didn't find it all that helpful (it's been awhile so I can't remember all that it contained).

ldsmama: I have your Kitzinger book and will look up your question if you can repost it.... thanks. on your question to youngnhappymamma: I have the same dilemma... finding time with partner (sans children) without having a lot of acceptable options for childcare....

[leavesarebrown]

It was a statistic about percentage of women who experience orgasm during intercourse vs. apart from intercourse. I thought the statistic was reassuring in terms of the wide variety of normal sexual response.

[Laurel]

Originally posted by mothernurture
does anyone know of any human sexuality/intimacy books written by women (LDS or not)?

I have one called "The Purity and the Passion" by Wendy Watson, a professor of marriage and family therapy at BYU. It focuses more on the spiritual truths that help us find more fulfillment in marital intimacy. The only downside is that the author is not married. There were many great insights in there for me, as I'm sure that someone who has counseled hundreds of couples would have learned a few things. But, there were some parts where I thought that she just didn't completely "get it", KWIM?

[Beth]

When my children were infants and sleeping in our bed every night, I would nurse the baby to sleep and then dh and I could be intimate. We were actually intimate on one side of the bed while baby slept on the other side. We have a king size bed. Sometimes dh would have to wake me up b/c I tend to fall asleep while nursing in bed. But that was okay. When the babies were little we definitely had to schedule intimate time. Occasionally, now that the children are older and in their own bedroom we do enjoy some spontenaity (sp?).

After the baby was six months or so I would move the baby to a bouncy chair (which I understand not all of you have) or her cradle which was at the side of my bed so she could sleep undisturbed while dh and I had time together. Both girls were moved to their room when they were a year old.

ldsmama- the blushing smilie: right next to the window where I type my posts there is a smilie box that has 15 smilies. Just below the box it says, "Showing: 15 of 125" then there is a [Get More] link in blue just below that. When I click on the [get more] a new small window opens and there are about 110 more smilies to choose from. I maximize the window so I can see most of the smilies at once. Depending on how fast your internet connections is it may take a few minutes for all the smilies in the new window to load. The blusing smilies is 13th down the left column. :blush Click on the smilie then it'll take you back to the post your are typing. I have found that you cannot insert smilies. They only come up at the end of all that I've typed. So if I want to insert one after I have typed more words I have to cut the words from where I want to insert the smilie then paste them back after I have chosen the smilie and inserted it. Does that make sense. If there is an easier way someone let me know. I am definitely not an expert on smilies or the computer for that matter.:scratch

[Beth]

I just read my last post and feel so excited to be nursing again soon. It is always a bit difficult for me to get started, lots of nipple pain, but it is great to snuggle with baby as we both drift off to sleep.:zzz

[ldsapmom]

I do not wish to offend anybody, first off, but I am used to helping people, especially moms, in very personal places in their lives -- I try to take a more clinical, tell-you-my-history-if-it-may-help approach. I do acknowledge the sanctity and perfect design HF had when he made our bodies the way he did. I also know the purest fruit which can come, and the greatest blessing even aside from the bonding between husband and wife, is the ability to grow, nourish, nurture, and bear children. That being said, sometimes I am "too much" for very private moms. If you find me as such please keep in mind that is not my intention. If anyone is interested, I posted an answer to a mom on another site when she asked a question about orgasms. I thought of posting the link here, but if you are interested, pm me. I feel awkward trying to balance between showing the proper respect I feel on the subject, lest you think me sacreligious, and trying to carry on a conversation:scratch...

[Laurel]

Originally posted by ldsapmom
the greatest blessing even aside from the bonding between husband and wife, is the ability to grow, nourish, nurture, and bear children.

The greatest barrier for me when it comes to marital intimacy has been being infertile. I cannot even describe how much it impacts body image and feelings of womanliness. It's kind of interesting because most couples struggle with intimacy after the children come--for me having a child and finally being a mom has been the most freeing thing possible. The logistical challenges of intimacy w/ a baby are nothing to me in comparison. Even though I did not physically my son, I feel different physically. Maybe more moms need to discuss how to integrate these two major purposes of sex--childbearing/bonding--instead of finding them at odds. (How you do that, I couldn't tell you--it just kind of happened for me.)

[ldsapmom]

Lisa, I hoped that would not offend you -- and I took a leap posting it sensing that you are really not far from any mother who has been pregnant and given birth. To me, the miracle is the love which comes after the baby. Yes, it is miraculous that our bodies were designed to house and birth babies, but the real joy and awe to me, the true miracle of birth to me, is the love, unending love, which comes after the body has done its work. The beauty in my mind is not in the way we can bring forth life, but the way that life shapes us after the fact. I do feel sad for moms who have struggled/struggle with infertility. It is such an unnatural thing to deal with, especially as Latter-Day Saints. We are taught to multiply and replenish the earth -- what a contradiction! But HF has provided other ways to become mothers.

I had a dear friend struggle with this for years. She always felt they just needed to do x, y, and z and then they would get pregnant. Nothing. Then a, b, and c. Nothing. After many years she finally asked herself this question: Do I want to be pregnant? Or do I want to be a parent? Of course she knew the answer. Four months later they adopted two brothers aged 2 and 4. Six months later they received a call from the boys' social worker saying their birth mom just had a baby girl, and would they be interested in adopting her too? They said yes, and voila, instant family! They still hope someday they might get pregnant, but they are not hanging their hat on that.
Maybe more moms need to discuss how to integrate these two major purposes of sex--childbearing/bonding--instead of finding them at odds. (How you do that, I couldn't tell you--it just kind of happened for me.)I don't think I have had a problem in this area, because I have to say the childbearing seems to either be coupled with or superceeded by the bonding aspect (the bonding seems to be the 'here and now' motivation, while the childbearing seems to be in the back of my mind).

[Ruthy]

I'm reading Women's Sexual Passages right now, and I want to recommend it to every woman I know! The author, Elizabeth Davis, is a midwife who is very in tune with all aspects of female sexuality, including spirituality. It's really not just about sex but about what it means to be female--I've found it very empowering and uplifting as well as informative. She does mention lesbian relationships, premarital sex, and masturbation, but not graphically; I don't think any of you would be offended. I especially liked the sections on postpartum sexuality and "dancing with your hormones." It presents a very positive view of all aspects of our sexuality; a nice change from how most people refer to menstruation as "the curse" and women with PMS as "crazy."

[ldsapmom]

I have her book "Heart and Hands." She is a great midwife and author.

[mothernurture]

Ruthy, thanks for the book recommendation. It sounds great. And I love the author. ldsapmom: I read Heart and Hands too, awesome!!!

[leavesarebrown]

Wow! Wish I'd stayed on longer last night! Guess I couldn't have stayed on long enough since I'm on the east coast. We found a great holistic fertility book by Niravi Payne that opened my understanding and body awareness (along w/ some others). Didn't make baby showers and that sort of thing easier, but I definitely felt like I had some insight into they feelings I was having about fertility and my body, and came to terms with and actually looked forward to (in some ways) a life serving in other ways besides parenting (at the time we did not have the resources or desire to consider adoption). I'm embarassed to admit this, but once I did get pregnant after that, I was ANGRY at Heavenly Father! I felt like I'd been played a mean trick. I'm over that, now (enough so that we had another!), and feel grateful for the extra time my husband and I had before becoming parents (and between kids).

Ldsapmom--I wasn't offended by anything you said (actually, I laughed as I read it). I was just trying to point out that it might not be safe to assume that those things which make our individual relationships satisfying are necessarily the answer for other women.

Now, for a couple older questions. While I used to feel that way about the JS story, if you think about it, it isn't any more fabulous than the stories in the Bible, or the Koran, or other religious texts for that matter. If God could appear to Muhamed (and I believe he may have), or Moses, or the apostles, why not Joseph Smith? I think the big conceptual hurdle for many Christians but particularly those w/ closer ties to the Catholic church is the idea of an anthropromorphic god--with "parts and passions". Mormonism is realy unique is taking the "in the image of the gods male and female" literally.

And circ--Thanks to whomever posted the two anti-circ scriptures. But those only answer the question of spiritual necessity (or not, rather). Circ can still be argued on other grounds. Like the social implications/ locker room scenario (which was compelling to me before the fact) and the mis-informed supposed health issue (my son is intact--and I just bought the book "What your doctor may not tell you about circumcision by Paul Fleiss). But this leads to the next topic--research and using research to make and support our parenting choices.

I believe attachment parenting (co sleeping, baby wearing, breastfeeding, responding quickly to crying) has literally saved my high-risk baby's life by helping to regulate and keep her breathing, to help her neurological development along, to reduce her SIDS risk, to keep aspiration milk from irritating her passageways hence preventing pneumonia, and to give her positive feelings about her body in the aftermath of a highly traumatic and invasive hospitalization during her first week of life. And I think AP is well-supported by research. But I still think relying on research alone is faulty. After all, some specialists use research to support campaigns AGAINST co-sleeping, for example. And to justify so many invasive medical and social practices (think of childbirth alone!!!!). That is all I meant. I ask you this: if a study or body of research seems to contradict gospel principles, do you view the research skeptically, or the gospel principle skeptically?

[leavesarebrown]

While everyone's making book recommendations, has anyone read an inspiring real-life story of pioneer women?

[Quella]

I would like to comment on the topic of marital initimacy in relationship with being a parent. It took me a good while to connect the two, which is funny because marital intimacy is what made me a parent!
I finally came to a personal epiphany about accepting the circle of life. From puberty to marriage to intimacy to giving birth to nursing and so on. All functions, experience and attitudes of our body, mind, and spirit that draw us into this beautiful circle of life.
I think it has helped me have amazing experiences in childbirth because I am more able to accept my body, to feel the connectedness of my body to the powers that God has given us.

With that frame of mind I was finally able to feel good about my sexuality. Being intimate with my husband didn't mean I had to forget I was a mommy, it was so freeing!
I still needed to jump up and take care of a wakeful baby in the middle of a 'moment', but I could go back (or pardon me, nurse while, only a few times) we continued.
I have struggled, going back and forth between feeling that sex is a beautiful, righteous gift to... something that is an enigma and I don't understand how I should feel.
I think it stems from having NO positive reinforcement growing up about the wonder of being a woman. My mom didn't even tell me about my period and she had 6 girls! I forgive her, her childhood was very hard.
One thing I absolutely love about being married to dh is that he has helped my joy in my womanhood. I can't tell you how much that means to me. Despite the stretch marks and post-partum breasts, etc...things are better than they ever have been. And he makes me feel so happy to be a woman and a mother.

I'm not sure if this the correct idea, maybe I need some redirection--- but don't feel it underminds the sanctity/sacredness of marital intimacy to learn about it (in a positive and righteous way.) I have really enjoyed talking with my sister at great length and detail (I call her the Birth goddess :) ) about intimacy. We don't talk about the details of our husbands, it's mostly ideas and feeling and from our points of view.
That lds intimacy book I mentioned says that for lds youth we are told no, you better not, and don't even think about it! Then we get married and we have to turn this switch on and the counsel is now "you better"! I laughed at this because I really struggled with that transition.

Well, I've gone on and on here. I either read and don't post often, or post a huge long message that I fear I may bore you!

Thanks for letting me do this,
Quincy

ps--mothernurture, I'm about 20 miles southeast of Portland in a small, funny logging town. Is your suburb south of seattle?

[Laurel]

Originally posted by ldsmama
But having been on such a fertility rollercoaster, I can't imagine opening myself up to that again due to the emotional havoc it reaks.

I can totally relate to this feeling. We are actually cautiously beginning to ttc #2 "the old-fashioned way", and keeping my emotional health in check is often at the forefront of my mind. I can totally understand why you want to stop at two.

I have had many moments of feeling confident and peaceful that my body is capable of conceiving with the right help (a naturopath we've found--just have to come up with the $$$). I can thank MDC for giving me such a renewed perspective and reinforcing the idea that my body, too, is a wonderful creation and that I can enhance it's function rather than fight it and hate it. I still have moments when fear and doubt creep in, though.

[ldsapmom]

I'm embarassed to admit this, but once I did get pregnant after that, I was ANGRY at Heavenly Father! I felt like I'd been played a mean trick.I can relate to this from the other end. It took us over a year before we conceived Jacob. During that time I became inactive, basically. I would not have said so in the middle of it, but every Sunday I made up some excuse not to go to Church. The real reason was it hurt me to see all those little children climbing on their parents during Sac Meeting. And yes, friends and family were having babies left and right. But it put me in a different place. First I was worried there was something wrong with me. It got so bad that at one point I thought, "If I cannot have children, what is my point to being here?" Slowly though, my thought process changed. This was during the time that my good friend adopted her 3 children (I mentioned that in a previous post). We hung out all the time. I really fell in love with her kids -- they had been raised in a group home most of their little lives, and the thought kept coming to me that there were more like them who needed homes. Pretty soon I was thinking more about adopting than about getting pregnant. I even went in during the hardest part of it all and talked to my Branch President -- a very kind, spiritual man. He said he could not say whether I would have kids or not, but he was so sympathetic and understanding. The first month I decided to go down and start adoption proceedings, we got pregnant. I really feel there was a reason for all of that. I really feel like someday we will blessed to add children to our family through adoption. If we had just gotten pregnant without any problems, I don't think I would have readied myself like I did for a future adoption.

After finding out I was pregnant, I phoned my Branch President. I told him I felt like a spoiled childe -- like I had been begging HF to get pregnant. Then I stopped going to Church. Then I got pregnant (of course the time is drawn out more). I told him I felt ashamed at the way I had acted. He said it was still a blessing and if I felt bead about the way I acted, there was only one person to talk to about that.

It was a dreaded dilemma when two specialists recommended that we have Jacob circ'd at 3. What made it harder was Dr. Fleiss actually recommended against it (he was a consult for me). But it boiled down to knowing Dr. Fleiss was a pediatrician and these other two doctors were pediatric urologists (even though Dr. Fleiss was the only one who called me at home!). One of the ped ur was very pro 'intactness' (if that's a word:)) too, so I trusted their combined recommendation.

Just to clear the air, I do know that what works for me and what we enjoy in my private bedroom is not the pattern all others must follow to have great sex. I know every [i]body[/] is different. For me to act like I know what would work well for you would be a marked personal error of my exercising any intelligence or sound judgement. Like I stated (seriously) before (and in a pm to another mom, sorry for the repeat) I am used to helping women in ways some might not understand or feel comfortable with. It can be awkward to place my hands on a woman's breast, but there are times when this must be done (I was just helping a mother figure out the Marmet Technique of hand expression). I also do belly casts for moms. Just last week I was holding a flashlight to a good friend's perineum as her midwife checked and repaired tears (and I was comforted by how similar we all look in that region). I am very relaxed in this area because real women come to me for real help. If I act tense and uncomfortable, how can I help? How would they feel comfortable?

So, I am not saying my way is the best way; I am sharing what we have found works for us. I know as an LLL Leader offering personal experience is not always a good idea because people feel you are saying: You have a problem, I had a problem. This is how I fixed my problem. That is how your problem can be fixed. Period. No more on the subject. Well, if a mom then tries that and it doesn't work, what then? Does she feel like a failure? Does she go back to the same person or does she find someone else to help?

As a Leader I am always trying to find the balance between sharing a personal experience, and choosing not to (when it will help, when it will harm). More times than not, I don't share personal experiences. I should have stuck by the same rule here, but I let my guard down, relaxed, because I thought it would be okay. So I guess what I am trying to say is please forgive me if I said anything that makes anyone uncomfortable. I am sorry. I am done talking about intimacy issues here but I will continue to talk to those moms who have pm'ed me about it.

[Ruthy]

Ldsapmom, I, for one, am very glad for the intimacy issues you and others have discussed. I think we need a safe, supportive forum where we can talk about sexuality.

Now I want to read Heart and Hands--thanks to those who mentioned it!

I have a question--people often ask me why so many Mormon couples have/strive to have numerous children, and I know there are many ways to answer that depending on the person's receptivity, level of spirituality, feelings towards the church in general, etc., but I was wondering how do all of you respond?

thanks

[alissakae]

ldsapmom: Thanks for sharing your experience. I love to hear about people's challenges and how they overcome or learn from them. You mentioned keeping your personal experiences out of a discussion, and in the context you talk about as a LLL leader or doula or something like that I agree with you. You described very well the reasons that LLL advises leaders to keep their personal stories out of their counseling. But, in a more informal "friend" relationship I think it's valuable to share your stories and history. So please keep sharing yourself! I appreciated learning about what you've been through, and there are so many layers of lessons to be learned from your experience. Thanks for sharing.

Ruthy: What an interesting question you pose. I think the "number of children to have" issue is one that is often misunderstood or misinterpreted by members. Obviously, the church doesn't tell us how many children to have...that's one of the beauties of the church, we are expected and encouraged to make our personal and family decisions based on our individual circumstances. But, on the other hand, we are taught that the family is important and that there are spirits waiting to receive an earthly body. Some people interpret this to mean that they somehow have a responsibility to provide bodies for as many as possible, but based on what the prophets have said I don't think that is the case. They have repeatedly stated that decisions concerning family size must be made prayerfully by each family, with special consideration for the mother since she naturally bears the largest burden in bringing children into the world and caring for them. The Church also does not discourage the use of birth control - again, it is a personal matter to be decided as a couple.
Some of us have large families. I have 8 children (7 living), but it's not because we really planned it that way. Our babies somehow foiled just about every birth control method known to man. If we didn't have the gospel, perhaps we would have had abortions after a failure in birth control or been sterilized.....but because we trust in the Lord we have followed what we feel is right and of COURSE birthed these babies, and we put off sterilization because whenever we contemplated it we had the feeling that it wasn't the time. Now that I have my sweet little toddler, who was born when I was 40 despite my faithful use of the pill, I see that not being sterilized was the right thing. We didn't know it, but our family NEEDED this little boy. HF is so much wiser than we are. So, to make a short thought long, I would say that each family is unique and the size of the family is based both on what the couple believe is best for them, and what HF decides is best for them - combined :love

Everyone: I also have Heart and Hands and love it. Even if you don't plan on having a homebirth it is a good guide to pregnancy and birth, and an excellent reference. If you go to an OB who makes you feel that pregnancy and birth are "dangerous", you can go home and pick up Heart and Hands and feel good again :D

I think it's good to have a discussion of sexuality in a respectful way. That's hard to find! Sex and intimacy are so debased in most places. There is a site I go to about circumcision, and I have been attacked there for saying that I believe sex should be reserved for marriage. It's just shocking what some of these people think, for instance that you are somehow "screwing up" your children if you teach them to wait until marriage. It is so refreshing to come here!

[Laurel]

Originally posted by ldsapmom
I am done talking about intimacy issues here but I will continue to talk to those moms who have pm'ed me about it. [/B]

I hope you are not really done talking! I have been loving this discussion. I sense that maybe you are feeling a little bit attacked? I hope it's not because of anything I wrote. I have thoroughly enjoyed hearing everyone's different perspectives on this issue and sharing my own as well. I am usually pretty private, but this has actually been good for me.

[mothernurture]

Quella wrote - "for lds youth we are told no, you better not, and don't even think about it! Then we get married and we have to turn this switch on and the counsel is now "you better"! I laughed at this because I really struggled with that transition."

I can relate to your comment (and believe many LDS young people, maybe especially women? can relate as well). It almost seemed like a psychological hurdle to get past that one day, sex (and other things that lead up to sex) is completely off limits and the next day, it's ok.

My mother, too, is a very conservative woman and did not say even ONE word to me about sex before or after my wedding. The message I received from her silence (and her shameful approach to all things that had to do with womanhood/sexuality, etc) was that our bodies were dirty and that even talking about sex (in a knowledge-seeking way) was unacceptable and even sinful.

Given that background, my goal is to find a way to teach my children about their bodies (being sacred) and the joy that can be found in an emotionally, physically committed (read: marital) relationship without shaming them in any way.

Quella, I loved your comment about the circle of life. It reminded me of a yoga pose, of the same name, my prenatal yoga teacher instructed us in. It is a beautiful reminder of the sanctity of human life, in all its stages...

p.s. we live on the east side of Lake Washington, near Redmond.

[leavesarebrown]

I too have enjoyed the intimacy discussion and wasn't trying to shut anyone down by discussing the sacredness or individuality of it.

[leavesarebrown]

ldsapmom I'm curious about Jacob's circ since my 3 1/2 yr old son still hasn't retracted. Do you know if that's a prob that might lead to late circumcision? My ped hasn't seemed worried about it, and he hasn't had any infections beyond normal diaper rash-type irritation and swelling (in fact, when we switch from cloth to disposable diapers he does much better). Maybe my answer is in the circumcision book I just got but haven't read yet.

[alissakae]

I hope you don't mind if I jump in about this circumcision question. Many boys don't have a fully retractable foreskin until they are 5 or so, there is a big variation there. Make sure no one tries to retract it! The only person who should do that is the boy himself, since of course he won't push it to the point of pain or damage. If at some point anyone recommends circumcision, be sure to get some other opinions. Although there are valid reasons for circumcision in childhood or adulthood, many of these circumcisions are done when a much less drastic alternative is available. (I heard of someone getting circumcised because of an infection! Isn't that what antibiotics are for?)

[ldsapmom]

My son had to be circ'd because he had a chordee, where for some reason he had embyological scar tissue on the underside of his penis which pulled it taught and made it point downward at an abnormal angle. They thought it might correct itself by the time he was two, but it didn't. It was a huge process for me to come to, but I finally decided I had to go with what my heart was telling me and have the operation done. If they left him intact they felt he would have erectile problems later in life (when it was time for him to be sexually active). I really had to put my principles aside. I took almost a year to make that decision which my husband knew the minute we walked out of the Dr.'s office! But I had to come to it on my own.

My dilemma with Dr. Fliess was he said he had NEVER seen a chordee which did not repair itself, given enough time. But the ped ur's agreed he could cause more damage scar tissue-wise if we tried to let nature correct itself. We had it done, and it was awful...but we have all survived!

[leavesarebrown]

okay, here's the worst I've heard. My dh's grandmother admitted (in her going senile years) to having his dad and bros circumcized punitively--because she thought it would stop them from masturbating! OUCH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!! and sad.:crying

[alissakae]

What an ordeal for all of you. That had to be so hard. It's tough to send a little guy into surgery (it just about killed me when I had a 2 year old who needed a hernia repair). Was the surgery successful? Everything good now?


One of the reasons circumcision got so "popular" in the US was the belief that it would prevent masturbation! At the turn of the century they started saying it would cure or prevent just about anything - including premarital sex and adultery.

[leavesarebrown]

yeah, and dh's grandma would have totally bought into that since she was a nurse and VERY into 30s and 40s ideas about "modern" cleanliness, order, medicine...

[mothernurture]

Does anyone know any statistics on the incidence of problems that some intact boys experience that later require circumcision?

We circ'd our first child in 1999 (which I regretted afterward) after debating with dh on the subject. He, unfortunately, won the argument when I was in terrible shape, physically and emotionally, from the birth and unable to stand my ground on the issue. Our ds was in the NICU for 24 hrs after birth and when we finally got him back, they took him away again almost immediately for circumcision. I sat in the room next door, waiting to nurse him after the procedure. Obviously, I still feel emotionally distraught over this (I'm sure my son does too) and guilt that I would allow that to happen to him, and only 24 hours after birth.

I won't allow that to happen again. I am curious what the incidence rate of later complications that would require circumcision. A friend's intact son has had problems that may now require circ. She says that given the current problems they are having, if she has another son, she's considering circumcision as a newborn.

[ldsapmom]

He is perfectly fine now. The hardest thing was his pain. He refused the pain meds because they gave him painkillers in a liquid state versus a pill (he vomits liquid meds -- but he can swallow a pill very easily). We literally had to pin him down and force him to take his meds. He actually only took them the first day -- but it had to be every 6 hours. He kept telling me he needed O bee (we use Burt's Baby Bees Diaper Oinment and he has always referred to is at that:)) because he had owies on his bottom. The only thing he could compare it to was diaper rash. He healed quickly, but the lingering newness of the way the skin felt unprotected by the foreskin really took a while for him to get used to. When I would change his diaper he would say, "Go soft," and shake his hands in my face to let me know it was way too sensitive to touch. That made me sad, too. But he's okay now, and that's all that matters.

Funny, though, they called me back to the post-anaesthesia(sp?) room because he was trying to rip out his IV and generally bothering the other post-surgery patients! I came back there and asked the doc if I could nurse him. He said yes. We were curtained off but there were about 20 people in this room. People are required to stay there until they are deemed okay to go to the recovery room and receive relatives, whatever. The doc leaves and I start nursing Jacob (I hop up on the gurney with him). It became so quiet, so quickly, about 5 different nurses responsible for other patients had to peak around our curtain and see if he was okay! They all had about the same look of shock to see me nursing my 3 year old (at 48 pounds, to boot -- he already looked like a 5 year old!), but I could see the relief too that he was being quiet at last!. When it was time to wheel him to recovery they put the rail up behind me and wheeled us through the hospital like that -- he latched to my breast. It's a fun memory:).

Alissakae, hernias often fix themselves, too, don't they? It is something they give a bit of time to before surgically correcting, is it not? I thought maybe Isaac had a hernia, but more like a herniated umbilicus which went away a few months after birth. Isaac does have an aortic stenosis though, which will require a valve replacement someday.

Hey, it would be fun to see pictures of all of you -- is there a way we can do that?

[alissakae]

Ivan's inguinal hernia was diagnosed when he was about 4 months old and had several hours of absolutely distraught crying...nothing worked, he wouldn't even nurse. Finally in the middle of the night the pediatrician on call agreed to meet us at his office. On the way there Ivan finally fell asleep. The doctor did a very thorough exam and found the hernia. He told us there was a risk of a hernia like this to herniate in the future, and we should watch him for signs of discomfort. He didn't have any more problems for two years. Then his scrotum on the side with the hernia started to swell, it got huge and he was in pain. If we didn't do something about the hernia at that point he could have lost his fertility and have internal injury....so that's when we decided to do the surgery. Sometimes these hernia's DO close off on their own (they are caused by the opening where the testes descend prenatally not closing off - I hope that sentence makes sense!) The trick is that sometimes other complications set in before that can happen. We were grateful that the doctor didn't pressure us to repair the hernia while he was an infant. Hard as it was for me to see my little two year old go into surgery, it would have been worse if he was an infant. He also nursed in recovery, which made that go so much more smoothly. ( I LOVE your story about nursing in recovery! That's so cool.) He was riding the wonder horse and jumping on the couch later that day too! The urologist who did the surgery laughed when we told him. He said that grown men who have that surgery limp in to their check up a week later.

I don't know any actual statistics about foreskin problems in intact boys/men, but they probably wouldn't be accurate anyway because a lot of circumcisions in older males are done when they probably aren't really necessary. The US is the only non-Jewish/non-Muslim country in the world that "routinely" circumcises babies and I don't think men in other countries are having to get circumcised in great numbers or anything. I really believe that HF designed the body perfectly, so why do we try to "improve" on that? But most parents aren't given good, accurate information about it in the US.

[ldsapmom]

he could have lost his fertility and have internal injuryI feel like that is what we were facing as well. At that point, principles or no, I really had to examine things from a different point of view! Not something I want to mess with.

I feel like you that HF designed us in His own image. I believe our baby boys are born perfectly and that is the one thing we do to change them. But I also think it is every parent's right to decide what they will do when they have a son (my husband would rather have them circ'd -- he joked to the urologist, asking if we could get two done for the price of one. Looking back now I don't know how we were able to keep Isaac intact!?). I am against it, but I am not against others doing it if they feel good about it.

For more information nocirc.org is a great site (that is how I got in touch with Dr. Fleiss). Also, this is a great article by Dr. Fleiss: http://www.mothering.com/10-0-0/html/10-1-0/10-1-protectuncircson103.shtml

I am sorry I got so strange about the intimacy-thing -- something else was going on and I wanted to be sure you all knew if I stated something which really hurt you that was not my intention, I really do apologize. I almost pm'ed every single one of you just to say that but decided this would work.

[Beth]

Wow, I have such a hard time keeping up with you all. You all are MASTER posters!:thumb I was gone for one day and we already have TWO pages on this new thread!!!!!

I went away with a bunch of girlfriends a couple of weeks ago, and of course in a large group of married women the topic of sex came up once or twice. One of the girls made a point that really made sense to me. She said that she got so good at not wanting sex, not thinking about it in high school and before she was married, that it is still quite easy for her to revert back to that same control she had over her desires. She knows now that it is okay since she is married, but can basically turn herself off like a switch.

I had so much more to comment on but for some reason I cannot think this morning. So I'll leave it at that.

This has been a great discussion, by the way, on all topics.

[ldsapmom]

Mothernurture, I pm'd you back but it says your box is full. Let me know if you got my response (I don't know if it sends it to you once your box is clear or if I have to send it again).

Ruthie, I pm'd you my sister's information -- did you get it? Are you familiar with the private message system and how it works? (I keep asking my sister, "Did you hear from Ruth yet?" and she keeps telling me no:).

I just went to a grand opening of Cost Plus (yay!) with our adopted grandma (a super-sweet lady in our ward who has no grandkids). I decided she is not the kind of person, outside of church and home, that is good to hang out with while my boys are around. We have our set patterns and routines and habits which we are used to. They may seem different or harmful to the outsider, but to us they are not (like Jacob wanting to push Isaac's stroller -- we do it all the time but she gasped out "JACOB, NO!"). It was a struggle being there with her. She and her husband are very nice people, and I would have no problem having them baby-sit for us, but outside of a home and church environment I think it would be too stressful for her. Taking the kids to the park works well too, but at a store, not again. I guess I felt like I had things under control while she felt things were falling apart:). But since we don't have family here they really are a blessing to us.

Alissakae, how is it going with planning evening get-togethers? I am still thinking about that and how hard it would be to feel good about people and things in that situation.

Stacymom, how is your baby doing? Is she nursing okay? How is big sister adjusting? How are you and you dh adjusting?

Laurel, I cannot believe Dallin is a year already. It has been such an honor being a cyber-bystander to your life, what little I have. It seems crazy to think when I first met you here, you were still in the process of waiting, no Dallin in sight. I always joke that the first pregnancy seem to take forever, but once the baby's out the time flies by. Hopefully the waiting for your next won't seem as long because Dallin will be shooting up before your eyes, making time go faster.

[youngnhappymamma]

Man! You guys are just humming along with the conversation!! That is so awesome!! :) You guys are cool. We need to have a big ol slumber party!! :) (I wish!)

I am also really thankful we have had the intimacy discussion. It has made me really think about this topic more...and I needed to. It's helped me to realize I have some major issues regarding sex. I realized I still feel like it is somehow "wrong".....but for a bit of a different reason than some of you. I did not abstain from sex as a teenager and had many issues (as I think I've talked about before) and hated myself for not obeying Heavenly Father. So I think part of me still hangs on to that feeling a bit. Which is really sad for my dh!! I was just telling him last night that I would quite honestly be happy not really having sex. I want to change that feeling. I enjoy it when we do it, but also feel like I don't want to spend the time and energy to engage in it....silly, I know!!!!! My poor dh!!! :confused: So this is something I am starting to work on (geez...there is soooooooooooooooo much to work on in life!!!!!!!!!!!!!)

i have more to say, but babe needs me!

[alissakae]

This conversation made me remember some talks I had with a friend 20 years ago or so (when I had only 1 child). We lived in student housing and I had made friends with one of my neighbors who had a little boy close to my daughter's age. We had both married young (18) and had babies pretty quickly so we had a lot in common, and we took a lot of long evening walks together while we had deep philosophical discussions. What a wonderful time that was! (BTW, I live in Utah and she has lived in Oklahoma for 16 years or so but we are still very close - those walks and talks were SO bonding). Anyway, we are both LDS but I came from a fairly open family and she came from an extremely strict family (she was born in the Mexican colonies)...so as I grew up I was exposed to a lot of things and actually discussed sex with my mom - Liz knew NOTHING at all until her first time with her dh. Well, in the course of our conversations things turned to sex. I don't remember what was said but it was nothing detailed. Years later Liz said to me, "You know, I didn't know you were supposed to LIKE sex until you told me.":eek It turned out that just having "permission" to enjoy it made a huge difference in her marriage! Maybe this is what we are sometimes missing in our education of youth. Yes, they need to know that sex is sacred and to be reserved for marriage. But they also need to know that it is something wonderful to be learned and experienced with their spouse, and that it IS meant to be enjoyed.

The RS hasn't said a word about the midweek stuff. The last one would have fallen on pioneer day so was cancelled, and they haven't made any announcements about August yet. But my friends who came over for a cookout on the 24th and I decided that we all need more "girlfriend" time, so we are just going to invite a couple of the other sisters who we feel we "click" with to do something once a month. In April we got together and tied a quilt for a sister who adopted a baby, and had so much fun....but haven't gotten together again since. So our goal is to make it a regular, planned thing.:D I just need to get over my desire to "fit in" with the ward overall, and concentrate on my relationship with the sisters who I really feel a connection to (because there are 5 of them who I am really learning to love and feel close to - what a blessing that is).

Yesterday I got my first visiting teaching visit since November! I didn't know these sisters well at all, and we had a nice visit. They came almost the minute I got home from work, so Ryan came up wanting to nurse when I sat down (it's our normal routine when I get home). I told them what he wanted and they didn't even bat an eyelash! So I give them a lot of credit for that:thumb . We had a nice discussion about breastfeeding, since it turns out we are ALL lactating. Isn't that fun?

Hey, I appreciate you guys letting me join in here. You are so awesome.

[ldsapmom]

I think part of our lack of desire (in a general sense that comes with being women) is that we are not as easily aroused as our male counterparts. If I could look at my husband and automatically be in the mood, I am sure we would be together more often. Afterwards I often say, "Why don't we do that more often?" It is easy for me to forget how wonderful it can be.

I made this analogy a few years back to explain this to a friend: Brad asks, "Do you want to rent a movie?" I am feeling tired, maybe I am already thinking I am in for the night. I say, "Well, I don't want to run to the video store and pick out a movie. But if you go to the video store and get a movie and bring it back home, chances are I am going to watch it. And most likely, I will enjoy watching it." Does that make sense? PS, that had nothing to do with watching movies!

I guess I have not had any quilty feelings about sex. What gets me is the same old thing of chasing after kids all day, trying to keep the house from looking like it was just hit by a hurricane, racking my brain for something to make for dinner, helping moms who may call anytime of the day or night, and not feeling too terribly wiped out to enjoy time with dh IF we are lucky enough to have two kids down for the count...although we try not to waste opportunites, they just hardly ever arise. Also, let it be known if I am asleep, I wake for NOTHING.

One thing that has really helped us is to get the kids out of the house for a bit. A few times we have had to attend things (college gradution, friends' sealing) where our kids weren't coming. We took them Grandma's house a little early, swung back by our house, and then ran off to wherever we were going. It is totally different knowing someone is not going to walk in
wanting to nurse in the middle of things:).

I am wondering what is everybody's biggest nighttime parenting challenge. Lately, Isaac has been nursing non-stop the whole latter half of the night. It is really driving me bonkers! I keep wondering what the problem is. Do you think maybe he is not getting enough to eat at dinner and so gets hungry? He will be two in November.

[mothernurture]

thanks to all for your comments on the topic of sex.

Youngnhappymama- thanks for sharing your thoughts. Given our different life experiences, I think we all have varying degrees of of interest in/enjoyment of the sexual experience. Given the conflicting messages we get from various sources during our growing up years, sexuality is one thing that we all experience in different ways and many of us (for a variety of reasons) have issues to work through.

But the great thing is getting an opportunity to discuss this (and other issues) with other women. The first step to change is the realization that one has issues to one might like to address at some point. The more I live, the more I realize so many aspects of life are parts of a deeper process and often the journey is as important as the end goal. Sorry if this is too vague or philosophical but after experiencing loss (losing loved ones through death), it really forces one to confront issues/life in a meaningful way. It's one reason I have a hard time with "small talk" with women I don't have anything in common with -- I need to put forth more effort to do so.

ldsapmom-I concur with your comment about the male-female disparity in terms of speed of arousal... makes it especially challenging when your little ones needs/sleep schedule don't allow for enough intimacy time !

Perhaps Isaac's night nursing is related to cutting 2 year molars? or perhaps a growth spurt?

[mothernurture]

the other lack of desire issue for me has been sheer exhaustion (fatigue reigns after working professionally, church commitments, and parenting 2 children under age of 4 -- one who is nursing and the other who has "high needs" in terms of his personality). I'm left with a day and a half per week (saturday and half of sunday) when I am free to do whatever (after meeting children's needs) but that time includes cleaning, cooking, running errands, grocery shopping, researching, etc....

so, after all that, I often don't have the energy to initiate or engage in intimacy with dh... what we need is a getaway together (just overnight and not even 24 hrs away) but that won't be possible for at least another year.

[ldsapmom]

Moms! Care to do some breastfeeding advocacy? Read this: http://www.geocities.com/gremarly/realsimple.html

[mothernurture]

Stacie,
thanks for posting that article. Our birth center (Puget Sound Midwives and Birth Center in Kirkland, WA) sent out the same opportunity to comment to all of its clients... it's incredible how MISINFORMED people (and organizations) can be....!!

[leavesarebrown]

I agree that it is totally normal to sometimes feel disinterested in sex, or out of energy for sex or like one needs more arousal time than ones partner or than circumstances permit, but it is also totally normal for men to feel this way too (although not culturally acceptable for them to acknowledge)! AND, women also find themselves on the flip side on occasion or regularly--deprived, unfulfilled, like her partner doesn't get worked up quickly enough to fulfill HER needs in the available time, or have the energy, or the interest to fill HER needs! (As some have discussed w/ increased sexual appetites w/ pregnancy or nursing or during periods, or WHENEVER!!--which can be the reverse for other women). I just have to say, again, that there is not necessarily "something wrong" with a woman who is not interested in sex, and there is not necessarily "something wrong" with one who is thinking about sex all the time and feeling unfulfilled! What IS a problem is when we don't feel able to identify or articulate our differing needs or frustrations so that we can work towards workable and mutually satisfying compromises with our spouses.

[alissakae]

Maybe our boys are just at an age where they don't sleep well! I am exhausted because Ryan woke at 2 am, nursed restlessly in bed with me for half an hour or so, then climbed off the bed and wandered around the house in the dark. Then he climbed back into bed with somebody's underwear on his head! I tried to get him to nurse again, but he started saying "go, go" and pulling on my arm. Finally (at close to 3:00 in the morning) I let him lead me downstairs to the kitchen, where he asked for milk and juice and cheese. I gave him the snack, then he acted completely full of pep and energy. My 18 year old son wandered into the kitchen then (he hasn't been sleeping at night lately either) and started playing with Ryan! So I said, "How about if I go to bed and you guys play if you want." Greg said, "OK" with a big grin. Then he asked what he should do with Ryan if he fell asleep. I told him to just go ahead and sleep with him. I was surprised that when I left for work this morning they really were snoozing together in Greg's bed. I've been a zombie all day, especially since we've had a couple of weeks of nights where he's been waking up...but last night was the WORST ever. Thank goodness Greg rescued me, lol.

[KatherineinCA]

Wow, it's been busy on this thread!

We just got back from six days in a cabin on a lake. It was so wonderful! We spent hours swimming in the lake, riding innertubes down a nearby river, hiking, and boating. The best part was there was never anyone else around! I want to go back!

I've enjoyed the discussion on sex. I actually feel like a newlywed in some ways, because of the healing from my abuse that I have recently experienced. After being married over 11 years, I now can have sex with no fear, anxiety, tension, etc. It's a totally different experience for me. So, now I finally understand why people seem to like it! :D

Alissakae--you mentioned you have seven children living. Would you feel comfortable talking about your child who died? I would appreciate hearing your story, and also anything that has comforted you. Thank you.

[alissakae]

The child I lost was my first baby. She would be 23 now if she had lived, which is a weird thought because it just doesn't seem like it was that long ago. Remembering can still make me sad.

I was 19 and still in my first year of marriage, dh and I were going to Utah State University. My baby was due at the very end of July so my plan was that when the quarter ended in June we would start a childbirth class and start getting ready for the baby. One day in early May we went up Logan canyon with the plan of hiking a little, but as we started up the trail I started to get a lot of Braxton Hicks contractions. I had been to the doctor just that week and we had discussed these contractions because I had just started noticing them, and he told me that they are normal in the third trimester. SO, the contractions didn't worry me but I had a weird feeling about them so I told dh that I wanted to go home.

That evening I noticed some spotting, which really scared me. We called my doctor, but he was out of town and we were directed to the doctor on call. When I told that doctor that I had been having contractions and that I was spotting he said, "Well, let's wait and see what happens?" (I will NEVER forget his cavalier attitude).

The next morning I still had a little spotting, but since the doctor had made me feel like an idiot for calling I decided to try to put it out of my mind. DH had a job at a construction site out in the boonies and he took the car and went there while I walked to class on the other side of campus (we lived in married student housing). After a full day of classes, which entailed a LOT of walking and walking home I started to worry again about the spotting and contractions. I called the doctor again, and this time got a different on call guy. When I told THIS doctor that I was 28 weeks and spotting he said, "get to my office right now!"

My dh was out in the boonies with our only car. This was 1980, there were no cell phones - I had no way to reach him. We had lived in our apartment 3 months and I really didn't know any of my neighbors or have any friends around. I actually considered walking to the doctor's office! Then I got the feeling that I should call my grandmother. I did not get along with her at all - and one reason for that was that if she ever did anyone a "favor" the person NEVER heard the end of it. But each time I thought about walking to the doctor I got the feeling again that I should swallow my pride and call Grandma. So, finally I did call her. She came right over and took me to the doctor. The doctor examined me and said, "You are dilated 2 centimeters. You need to go home and go straight to bed. You are not to get up for ANY reason except to use the toilet." He gave me a prescription for the drug Brethine, which had recently come into use to stop premature labor contractions. He also made arrangements for a nurse to go to my home every other day, starting the next morning, to give me injections of steroids to mature the baby's lungs (which was sort of in the experimental stage at that time).

Grandma drove me home, but I didn't let her take me in...I said I'd be fine and she just dropped me off. I went inside and called dh's friend and asked him if he could find dh and tell him I needed him to come home. (I don't know why it had not occured to me to call this guy earlier).

Anyway, I was on bedrest for a week - getting the steroid injections and taking that awful drug (it gives you heart palpitations, and generally makes you feel weird). When the contractions started again my doctor, who had returned to town, had me increase the dosage of Brethine but eventually it seemed to stop working and dh had to take me to the hospital. That night they were talking about keeping me in the hospital, possibly for the duration of the pregnancy. We called our parents to tell them what was going on and they all came up to Logan. It was Mother's Day weekend so my in-laws had come to Utah from California to visit dh's grandmother. As they all arrived in the wee hours of the morning and the doctor was telling us how long I might be in the hospital my water broke. So, the game plan changed as it was obvious the baby would be delivered before dawn.

Amber was born at about 3:30 am on Mother's Day, May 11. She weighed 2 lbs. 15 oz, which was a very good weight for being almost 12 weeks premature, and she had no respiratory distress at all - the steroids worked! She was able to stay at the Logan hospital, and we were told that at that time she was the smallest baby that had been born there that wasn't transferred to Salt Lake. After a search of the city, we were able to find ONE breat pump - the old bicycle horn type - and I started pumping the next day. Amber lived 5 weeks in the hospital, with me riding my bike down with my batch of milk every morning, and dh and I spending every evening and well into the night hanging out in the NICU with her.

In early June, because she had been doing really well and we were basically just waiting for her to get big enough, the peditrician told us we would be able to have her home by July 4!

On Friday, June 13, we were at home in the afternoon sleeping (exhausted after all those weeks of hardly sleeping at all - I remember this was the first time we had napped in all that time) when we got a call from one of the nurses. She said Amber had been crying inconsolably, and they had called the doctor in to check her out.

When we got there the doctor was doing a spinal tap on her, and she was crying and crying. I think that's when my heart broke.

The diagnosis was spinal meningitis. By Saturday morning, Amber was unconscious. By Saturday night she was on a respirator. Sunday morning (Father's Day) my inlaws were with us as we made the decision to take her off of life support. At that point she was blind, her extremities were purple, she had severe brain damage. It's hard to express how horrible it was to watch her go from a sweet little baby who was responsive and alert to lying there with her body shutting down. I can't express it. I was so distraught that my in-laws took dh and I home to our apartment. An hour or so later the doctor called and told us that Amber had passed away. To this day I regret that I wasn't there. I know my in-laws did what they thought was best for us, and I was such a basket case that I didn't know what I wanted...but I so wish I had been there with her. My parents were on their way to Logan and went straight to the hospital because of course they thought we'd still be there. They arrived just after Amber died, and the staff let them go into an empty room and hold her little body for awhile. She was the first grandchild on both sides of our family.

That afternoon the Bishop came by with his brother. We were talking a bit and my parents decided at that point to go out and get some food or something. The Bishop offered to give me a blessing of comfort - something that had not occurred to me before. He gave me a beautiful blessing, in which the questions and concerns that I had not shared with anyone were answered. I physically felt a warmth and comfort actually enter my body. My mom told me later that when they returned after leaving us with the Bishop she was amazed at the difference in me. I guess I went from that basket case back to a functional person. The Bishop's brother had a tape recorder and had recorded the blessing, which the Bishop's secretary later transcribed for me. I still get that blessing out and read it sometimes, it was so amazing.

All the rest of my children have been born full-term (except one miscarriage, and one fetal death at 15-16 weeks) and we never knew why Amber came early or why she contracted meningitis in the hospital. In the last few years I've learned about Strep B, and I think it's possible that that is what I had. During my next pregnancy I had a UTI early on and had antibiotics, so perhaps if I had Strep it was cleared up then. I'll never really know. This was a very rough experience, but I learned and grew from it. It may sound awful, but I'm grateful that if I had to lose a baby it was my first. It was so painful to lose her, but I didn't really fully understand ALL that I was losing (as I would now, after having children who have grown and matured). I don't know how anyone gets through the loss of a child without the Gospel. Having that blessing, and knowing that I will again be with my baby....that's what brought me comfort, and still gives me comfort and hope.

I know your experience is much fresher. Do you feel comfortable sharing?

[ldsapmom]

Alissakae, wow. I had no idea. Katherine, I hope that helps you. You two are amazingly strong women. I don't know what else to say, but thank you for sharing something so personal.

Alissakae, I think it is funny about your boys hanging out together in the middle of the night. I was the second of 4 girls, and then at the tail end we had a boy. I was 14 when my brother was born. When I was in high school and I would come home from dates late my my brother would come wandering out of my parents' room. Not one light would be on in the house, but he would come find me or my older sister. He would say, "I don't have no one to pweep witf." So we would say, "You can pweep with me." He would come upstairs and sleep with one of us. Later, after HS, I would bring my boyfriend home to hang out. He would stay pretty late. My brother used to get up and come watch TV with us, all hours of the day and night (my bf was a RM -- his mom didn't care when he came home, and as long as I was in the house my parents didn't care when he left as long as we were in the living room watching TV or a movie. He later married my best friend! Long story there.). It just reminded me of my family. I always said I didn't want to have my family spead out like my mom did (last one born while oldest was 16), but there sure are some advantages to that, aren't there!.

The underwear on his head was the final touch -- I could see Isaac doing that any day of the week:).

[leavesarebrown]

Could you tell from her short time on earth who your daughter resembles most? And did you get any pictures? I imagine my two girls (1st two miscarriages) as blondies. I've drempt about them on a beach playing in the sand together and also in a field of wild flowers, but didn't really see their faces. I've had no impression of the third baby I lost, so perhaps it was Talia, just waiting a bit longer. I too was a basketcase w/ newborn Talia in ICU. I pulled it together enough to appear sane enough to take her home (I think the hospital social worker was more concerned about me than her!) but in spite of blessings of comfort and undeniable answers to prayer, I didn't pull out of it as quickly as it sounds like you did. In fact, I'm still not sure I have pulled out of it.

I'm now about a third of the way into the circumcision book I mentioned a while ago, "What your doctor may NOT tell you about circumcision" and am SOOOO glad that my husband was opposed (I would have just gone with social convetion on that one!!!) and urge any of you w/ husbands or family sitting on the fence on this issue to BUY THIS BOOK, read it, and have them read it! In fact, I would read it just to understand your husband better, whether he's intact or not! Sure makes me feel empathetic and more tender towards my dh!!!!

[alissakae]

It's so nice that you can have a vision of the babies you lost. I wish I could have that at least for my late miscarriage. We asked them to test it so we could at least know the gender (since a D&C was performed), but because the baby had died at least 10 days earlier they weren't able to get good tissue to test.

The blessing did feel me with a lot of comfort, so that I could go from being completely distraught to a functional person. But I didn't exactly pull out of it quickly. It was years before I could even tell anyone about Amber without bawling. I don't think losing a child is something you ever "get over." It's really a matter of finding solace. One of my favorite hymns is "Where Can I Turn For Peace", and I think it's because I relate to it so well.

Although my boys are all intact (the decision was a bit easier for us since everyone in my family is intact) I think I would like to read that book. Where did you get it? My dh's brother is expecting a second child (first was a girl) and he wants to find a way to try to "save" the baby if it's a boy - without coming across as pushy or whatever. His other brother has a son and it depressed dh when he realized his nephew was circ'd, and he hadn't broached the subject with his brother. Most people don't really think about circumcision and sort of go with the flow. It seems expected when the hospital just brings in a consent form along with all the other stuff you sign there.

[alissakae]

I forgot to answer your questions about Amber. She had strawberry blonde hair, like I had as a child. That hair color wasn't repeated among all my children until my little surprise! Ryan has that haircolor too. All my kids have had similar little faces as babies, so they all looked a lot like her at birth.

We did get a few pictures, although we didn't even own a camera at the time! My parents came and took some. My brother finished his mission and they went over to Korea to get him and vacation for two weeks of Amber's life so we didn't get any pictures during that time:crying

About 10 years ago my in-laws took one of the pictures we did have to an artist, who painted a large portrait or her without all the wires attached. I bawled when they gave it to us of course.

[youngnhappymamma]

alissakae- thank you so much for sharing your story about your sweet baby girl and all you went through!!! I can't imagine how hard that must've been. It must be so neat and such awesome motivation to think of her waiting for you on the other side! And for your other children to someday get to meet their eldest sister!

Okay...I am VERY greatful we have had the sex discussion. I have been able to work through some issues and now feel much more connected to dh.....definitly a "balm" of sorts which someone mentioned. After months and months of feeling negative about him and not feeling very connected, I finally am feeling "in love" with him again. :D Heavenly Father is so cool to give us this wonderful act of love making to seal husband and wife..... and you gals are cool to talk about it so openly. :)

[mothernurture]

youngnhappymama - that is so awesome!! one more example of how it can often help to hear of other women's experiences. how exciting for you to feel more connected to your partner. we have had similar moments in our marriage (our 6th anniversary is on august 16th) when we "renewed" our connection after a period of time when we felt less bonded to one another. hurray!

alissakae- thank you for sharing your story of such an intense personal loss as that of your firstborn child, your first daughter. I acknowledge the courage it must have taken to endure through what must have been the most intense grief. What a strong mama you are!

[mothernurture]

Katherine,
great to have you back! Sounds like your vacation was divine! Our early July trip to Lake Tahoe was rejuvenating too (no cell phones or email, just the mountain air and water with ducks on the lake as an alarm clock).....

[ldsapmom]

Kristin, I tried to pm you again -- apparently after I tried last time and it said your box was full, the message I tried to send evaporated...:)

We had such an interesting SUnday School lesson today. It was all about Priesthood order, etc. A friend was saying how a few years ago she was called as RS Pres. Within an hour she felt impressed as to who her counselors should be. She did not know any of the women, but she felt impressed they needed to be her counselors. She never understood why, but her 1st counselor seemed to have a very bad attitude about working with her. She was really rude and very counterproductive. In a meeting with the Bishopric a few months later this siter basically nailed my firend to the wall. She said she KNEW this siter was not supposed to be RS Pres because she had had an experience in the Temple wherein she was told who should be RS Pres. So she was putting up greast resistance because she did not feel my firend had been called of God. They talked about this in the meeting. Later, the Bishop asked my friend if she wanted said sister to be released. My friend said no; she felt inspired about her counselors and she felt HF wanted them to serve in those various positions. The sister never changed. (Okay, my friend did not say all of that in her comment. I sat by her in RS and said that sounded like a hard situation to deal with -- then she shared with me more of the story.)

I don't want to stir things up just as they have died down, but this reminded me: Although I love AP and find it works very well in my family, I don't feel I can say, straight across the board, every parent should practice it. I guess that is the prespective I have had all along. HF just gives me revealation for my family, so although it is important to watch for sisters who may be struggling and looking for another way, it does not do that much good to interfere before that point except by our examples.

We also had a wonderful RS lesson. I am feeling so close to my sisters there. It has taken a while to feel like I belong, but I know the sisters really care for me, and I am delighted when I realize I truly care for them!

[mothernurture]

ldsapmom: I appreciated your comments in the last post about providing advice/support for women who might be searching for another way to parent and who might be interested in learning about AP but not to interfere otherwise.

In the past, I have worked with victims of domestic violence/child abuse and in that capacity, ethically, I have a "mandatory reporting" obligation to report (at least in cases of child abuse) abusive situations to higher authorities. Perhaps this is the reason, given this experience, why it is so hard for me to see others treat their children in a non-AP way when it appears to be either verbally and/or physically abusive. One recent example comes to my mind...

There is a little sunbeam in my son's class at Primary whose older brother (probably between the ages of 10-13) knocks him around (slapping him on the head and intimidating him to the point of him crying) out in the hallways during Sacrament meeting. It breaks my heart to see him treated this way. I have no idea where his older brother learned this behavior (possibly treated that way himself as a younger child, either by parents or other caregivers) but it is so unacceptable to me that it is so hard to watch this happening and NOT intervene. All I have been able to do so far is befriend this child and go out of my way to acknowledge him/show kindness to him. It is so hard to see children who are being treated in what I consider an abusive way and not respond in some way to help the child.

[leavesarebrown]

The circ book is What Your Doctor May NOT Tell You About Circumcision by Paul M. Fleiss, MD and Frederick M. Hodges, D.Phil. Dr. Fleiss is the MD ldsapmama consulted about her son's circ, right? Ldsapmom, I feel for you in the really tough decision you and your husband had to make on behalf of your son. It must be reassuring to have had a medical justification for circumcision in his case that you can clearly explain to him as he gets older.

I am now past halfway point and I HIGHLY recommend this book to every mama in America!!!!! Do you know that the US is the only industrialization nation that routinely circumcizes for (supposedly) non-religious reasons? This book actually fits into our discussions about human intimacy because I have learned a lot from this book that I totally missed in home and outside sex education since few people in America had a clue what a foreskin is for when I was being taught about sex. Now I understand GOD's design for a man and a woman, and how much of the frustration between men and women, and supposed sexual dysfuction women is actually the fault of routine circumcision!!!!! What a clever and diabolical plan of Satan to attack the very heart of God's plan of happiness with its negative impact on the sexual relationship of husbands and wives--especially for women--and fits into his overall scheme of destroying all that is good, sacred, and joyous in God's plan.

But it also brings up two questions. #1 Was circumcision ever really part of God's plan or is circumcision one example of the mistranslations/doctrine of man inserted into the Biblical text? (Jewish scholars have demonstrated that Genesis 17, in which circumcision is instituted as part of the Abrahamic covenant, is not contained in the earliest manuscripts of the Old Testament. And based on my quick perusal, circumcision is NOT mentioned in the book of Abraham, but WAS part of cultures which performed not only ritual circumcisions, but also ritual child sacrifice.)

The second question is a little more complex and requires just a little background. The book clearly demonstrates how fear of masturbation and belief that circumcision would prevent (or was an effective punishment for) masturbation was a driving force in the creation of mass and routine circumcision both during the victorian era w/ criminals and assylum patients but also in the cold war era in the US with the general public. We know that masturbation does not cause all the diseases that it was then blamed for, but we are some of the few people who still teach that masterbation is spiritually detrimental, to the extent that our leaders teach that anyone not free of this habit should not serve a mission. Anyone who has had a husband who has conducted temple recommend interviews knows that circ does NOT prevent masturbation. I'm not sure what my question is here. I guess maybe how to address this usually unmentioned reason for circumcision even though I believe it is a driving force for circumcision within the church (rates of circ in Utah are much higher than other areas of the country in spite of the Book of Mormon and Doctrine and Covenants teachings against it).

[mothernurture]

ldsmama: thank you for the book recommendation and for raising some very important issues surrounding the routine use of circumcision in America. I know your thoughts will lead to an excellent and informative discussion!

[leavesarebrown]

Hmm... will you say more, mothernurture? I mean what do you think of what I've said on the subject? Or what questions or concerns or thoughts it raises for you?

[TopazBlueMama]

I'm trying to keep up with the thread! Very good conversations!
ldsmama, for me I think the topic is avoided because I feel like there really isn't much I can do about it. Dh is circ'ed so I don't know what I'm missing, and I don't want to make him feel bad or anything you know? But I'm very grateful that I left ds intact so he will be able to experience things as they were meant to be, and I hope that everything will be okay leaving him intact.

I don't know, but I heard that old circ just the very tip of the foreskin was removed?

This reminded me of Ezzo's book. I skimmed through it from the library because I wanted to make a judgement for myself and see what all the hoolah is about with that book.
It is sad how he seemingly takes a truth and then distorts it. That's just how Satan works. In the book he says that you need to make sure that the husband and wife relationship is solid and put first basically. But we all know the way that he goes about doing that. I think that is the way he entices people, he began with that truth that you can't argue with.
Oh and he gives parents the advise to consider what their boys will feel like in the locker room if they aren't circ'ed! :shake

So sad.

[TopazBlueMama]

Oh and allisakae and katherineinCA thanks so much for sharing your stories of your losses. I'm so sorry. I'm so grateful for the knowledge we have that this we can be together again. This life is so short and goes by so fast! Thanks for reminding me to be grateful for every moment and to make the most of things.

:love

[mothernurture]

unfortunately, I only have a second to respond. Your thoughts/questions are of interest to me in terms of 1) my relationship with dh and how his circumcision (as a baby) may effect our intimate relationship and 2) how my son's circumcision 24 hrs after birth has/will effect him (not just in terms of sexuality but psychological scarring as well). And what I can do now (and in the future) after the fact to help him..... (Katherine, did you mention this at some point in the past? How to help your sons with this issue?)

and of course 3) how routine circumcision effects our society in a larger context. Clearly, I believe an education campaign (in and outside the church) about the myths/misinformation behind circumcision is needed. How does one go about this task? Other than offering information to people who express interest in learning about the reasons for/risks associated with this practice....

[mothernurture]

To all current/future nursing mothers:

There's a 60% off sale starting today until 8/10 at Motherwear.com. I usually can't afford their prices but with this discount on all summer nursing clothes, I can finally buy a couple things for church. I haven't found any dresses, other than Motherwear, that allow for easy access nursing...

www.motherwear.com
1-800-950-2500

[leavesarebrown]

Yeah, the locker room argument was actually one of the reasons I was pro-circ before we had our son. But if you look at the declining circ statistics, that argument will soon support the reverse conclusion. And boys will be arguing that they are more manly because they are intact!

How do you see "just the tip" making a difference in terms of the hst of circ?

How I found the new info helpful for me & my dh is feeling really good about where we're at IN SPITE OF the inevitable physical and emotional problems and dysfunctions that circ creates. And w/ greater understanding of our current situation, we are empowered to counteract some of the effects, not to mention that it simply frees us from assuming that the effects are from other causes. That is TOTALLY worth a little sadness over "what's missing"--and makes me more sensitive to my husband and extra grateful for the promise of complete and perfect resurrection.

[TopazBlueMama]

Yeah, that's why I'm not worried at all about the locker room arguement.

"How do you see "just the tip" making a difference in terms of the hst of circ?"

I honestly don't really know, that was just something I heard, that the circumcision done in the bible days was not like it is today, so maybe it didn't cause such dramatic side effects. I really have no idea, this isn't something I've studied. I do think what you were wondering about it being a mistranslation is an interesting thought. That may be something we won't know in this life for sure. Certainly something to think about!

I also wanted to add that I really like how you look at it now between you and your dh! That is very helpful!

[KatherineinCA]

Alissakae:

Thank you so much for sharing the story of Amber's life. I find that I need to hear others' stories so I don't feel so abnormal. (You, know, the ONLY one who's lost her baby... which is who I am at church, and actually, most other places, too.) It also meant a lot to me that you referred to yourself as a mother of eight children, seven living. I start to feel like Kevin's invisible and so I'm not the mother of four, even though I vomited for nine months, labored for two days, had a c-section, etc., etc....


Here's a version of Kevin's birth story that I wrote for ICAN (International Cesarean Awareness Network). A couple things I'll mention to this LDS audience...I refer to a spiritual experience that Mark and I had in the hospital, it was a priesthood blessing. Also, Saturday, November 9 was supposed to be our twins' baptism. We had family scheduled to travel from all over Northern California to be there, and most of them came anyway just to be with us and support us, as I was laboring off and on throughout the day. It was really hard to have to cancel their baptism, and when we finally did it a month later it was very depressing, because all we could think of was Kevin not being there.

Warning, this is extremely long!


"January 26, 2003

Kevin Harrison’s Stillbirth--November 10, 2002

I joined this list last summer, while planning an HBA2C with my fourth baby. My first c-section had been with my twin son and daughter (now 8) in 1994, my second was with my next son (now 3) in 1999. I was due in November 2002, and wanted desperately to avoid being cut again. I had gained a great deal of insight into underlying emotional reasons (related to being sexually violated as a child) for my previous c-sections. I had been doing lots of healing work for about 1 ½ years, and felt ready to have a healing birth. I found two midwives who were willing to take a VBAC client, and everything fell into place. I enjoyed my prenatal visits because I was treated as a healthy pregnant woman, instead of a “catastrophe waiting to happen.” My midwives taught childbirth classes that included Hypnobirthing, so daily I listened to my relaxation tape to prepare for the birth. This list was also very important for me. The support of the women here, the belief that I could do it, and reading the stories of other women who had birthed vaginally, particularly the women who had birthed at home, were so vital to me.

Before my three year-old, Kyle, was born I had miscarried at ten weeks, then had an ectopic pregnancy that resulted in two emergency surgeries and finally treatment with Methotrexate. Because of those losses, I had been very scared the whole time I was pregnant with Kyle. But this pregnancy was very different. My baby communicated with me before I even knew I was pregnant. He let me know he was coming, he was a boy, and his name was to be Kevin. I was also told through Spirit many times “your baby will be fine, and you will be fine.” This assurance was the reason I felt so certain about pursuing a home birth in spite of my c-section history. I also never worried for a moment about miscarrying, because of that reassurance that I was given. I even took my pregnancy loss books to the local consignment store because I felt so surely that that chapter in my life was closed. Because of that reassurance, I was able to bond and connect with Kevin in a way that I will always be grateful for. What if I had worried away my whole pregnancy and then lost him anyway? I would have wasted the only time I had with him. I also want to mention that early in my pregnancy I experienced a great deal of fear about the actual delivery. I was so scared of being cut again, and yet I was so scared about pushing a baby out vaginally (because of my abuse history). I remember sobbing as I realized that this baby had to come out and there was no “good” way for him to be born. As I prayed for help with the fear, I was given a reassurance that I would be supported by angels when the time came for my baby’s birth. I also did lots of energy work (specifically, Reiki) during my pregnancy to heal the fear my body had regarding the birth.

My labor began early Friday morning, November 8. Around 4 am I woke up to contractions that were strong enough to keep me from going back to sleep. When I went to the bathroom, I noticed I was starting to lose my mucous plug, so then I got a little excited, thinking maybe this was it. The contractions continued all day, but were only about 30 minutes apart. I was able to keep home school going from the couch, dropping onto all fours when the contractions hit. They were extremely painful, and took all my focus to breathe through them. Once, when I was reading to my kids on the couch, I quickly threw the book down and dropped down on the floor. As I was steadily breathing my way through, my 8 year-old son, Spencer, yelled, “Get Dad! The baby’s coming and he’s going to miss it!” That’s one of our family’s favorite memories now. By that evening they were coming closer together and I was starting to get tired. I called one of my midwives just to let her know I was contracting. She commented that she didn’t want me delivering yet, because my baby was still small. I was a little puzzled, because I was 37 1/2 weeks. How could my baby be “too small”? She recommended that I take a warm bath with some drops of lavender to see if the contractions would stop. They didn’t, they kept getting closer together throughout the night. By 4 am they were finally five minutes apart so I had Mark call the midwives and ask them to come. It had been a long night, but I felt good about how I had handled the pain. I had used my shower and the birth ball I had borrowed. I was also taking a drop of Rescue Remedy with each contraction. I just kept talking to Kevin and picturing holding him and being with him soon. When the midwives arrived I asked them to check me. I had been working for so long, I was excited to see how much I had dilated. They responded that “first we have to check the baby.” MW#1 got out her Doppler and started checking for his heartbeat. It was taking her a while, but it always did, so I wasn’t concerned. After a while MW#2 took over, and still wasn’t finding it. She finally asked “When’s the last time you felt movement?” I couldn’t remember. I had been concentrating so hard on the contractions, I hadn’t paid attention to Kevin’s movement. She recommended we go in for an ultrasound. MW#1 stayed at our house with our sleeping children to wait for my parents to arrive. Even as we drove to the hospital, I still felt completely calm and confident. After all, I had been told so many times by Spirit that my baby would be fine and I would be fine.

When we arrived at the hospital my good friend Denise was still there. She’s an L&D nurse who works one night a week. She was just about to finish her shift when we arrived, and I was so grateful to have a friend there. The doctor who was on call was also the doctor I would have chosen. She was respectful, even though I was planning a homebirth after two c-sections. I was aware that I might be treated as ignorant and irresponsible by those at the hospital because of planning the HBA2C, so I was grateful the doctor treated me well. The ultrasound showed that our baby had died. Even as the doctor was telling us, I still had that wonderful reassurance that my baby was fine. That’s when I understood that his spirit was fine. It had never been about his little body. We learned that he was quite small, and that there was no amniotic fluid. (“Aha!” I thought, “That explains the pain of the contractions!”) They then had a technician come in and perform a more detailed ultrasound to see if we could learn any more. During that ultrasound I realized I would need as many keepsakes as possible to remember this baby, so I asked her for a picture from the ultrasound.

MW#2 asked if I wanted to stay. My immediate response was, “Here?!” The thought of laboring on the cold tile in that awful gown, in a room and bathroom that weren’t mine was so unappealing. I still wanted to deliver at home, so we went back home around 8am to wake our children and tell them that Kevin had died. Because my contractions had stopped while I was at the hospital, the midwives went home, too, with the understanding that I would call when things picked up again. During the day the contractions slowly began again. I dealt with them in my bedroom off and on, as friends and family came to support us as we confronted the loss of our baby. Finally by 6:00 I asked everyone to leave and we called the midwives back. They brought with them a doula who I didn’t know, who was to help with the portable spa they brought. She was very sweet, and I appreciated having here there. (She’s also an ICAN chapter leader, so maybe she’s on this list?). I also called my Reiki teacher, and asked her to come.

MW#1 was the first to arrive, and right away I knew we had a conflict. Around 4:00pm, Mark (who had never wanted a homebirth) had asked if I would consider going to the hospital. My response was, “Why? We’ve already had the worst possible outcome.” He started crying and hugged me and said, “No, we’ve only had half of the worst possible outcome.” At that point I realized how scared he was of losing me, and wondered how much more I could put him through. So when MW#1 arrived I told her that I was considering going to the hospital. She didn’t talk to me about why, but immediately answered, “But then you won’t have the natural endorphins to deal with your grief.” That was my first clue as to how deeply she was invested in my birthing at home. As a contraction hit, I started tensing and yelling. She tried to get me to breathe and relax, and I heard myself shouting, “I don’t want to relax! My baby’s dead!” I couldn’t use the Hypnobirthing tape anymore because it was all about welcoming my alive baby into the world. Those visualizations didn’t work for me now. It seems that MW#1 was never able to let go of the birth that she thought was right for me, in order to support what I knew was right for me.

When RP (my Reiki practitioner) arrived, she and Mark and I settled into a rhythm during the contractions. Mark would talk me through them while RP held her hands over my back and abdomen, so the Reiki could keep the energy moving. She began suggesting things for me to release. I spent several hours coming to terms with my baby’s death. I had to get to the point that I could let Kevin go. I also did some release work dealing with the uncle who had molested me, and some more work dealing with my marriage. Around 10pm I knew I had done the work I needed to do. I suddenly felt lighter and freer, and was ready to decide about where to birth. It was hard to decide, because I knew Mark would feel better with me at the hospital, but I had been so committed to a homebirth. I wondered what people would think of me if I didn’t birth my baby at home. What would the midwives think of me? Would they be disappointed in me? I was so paralyzed by others’ expectations that I couldn’t figure out what to do. RP finally suggested that I pray to know the most loving thing I could do for myself. When I asked that question, I knew without a doubt that going in for an epidural was what I needed. It was then that I realized that I didn’t need to worry about the drugs hurting my baby anymore. I walked down the hall to tell the midwives and doula. MW#1’s face conveyed devastation, and MW#2 suggested I get into the tub to relax me for the drive. So I went back to my room, waffled again, then went back out and told them that I knew what I needed to do, but was having a hard time because I felt a lack of support from them. At that point, they all tried to reassure me that they could support me regardless of what I decided. I asked MW#2 to accompany us, and we called my nurse-friend, Denise, who had offered to meet us there if we decided to go back in.

I also need to say that I was so disappointed in MW#1’s behavior during my labor. I know she meant well, but she couldn’t read the situation well enough to discern that she was interfering and side-tracking me. I kept expending energy asking her to leave, or answering her questions, and it was extremely irritating. It was such a disappointment, because I had looked forward to the labor support my midwives would provide. I appreciated that MW#2 stayed in the other room, waiting for me to ask for her help.

Once we arrived at the hospital, I was in so much pain that I was desperate for the epidural. Unfortunately, it took quite a while. Because Denise was there, she was able to get me some Nubaine, which wasn’t too great, but at least it was something. Denise was there as my friend, so a different nurse was officially assigned to me. It was such a blessing to have a friend with me who also worked there. She was friends with the other nurses, so they were friendly with me, as well. She was also able to explain everything to me, and give me more information than I would have had.

About my dilation. All Friday and all Saturday I hadn’t dilated at all. After I did all the emotional release work at home, I dilated two cm. That two cm meant so much to me, because I knew that for me, it represented a lot of progress. Because of my c-section history the doctor wouldn’t use Pitocin, which I understood and actually appreciated. So by 2 am I had an epidural and we all settled down to see what would happen. Before Mark went to sleep, we had a spiritual experience that let me know that I would be having a c-section again. Along with that experience I felt an incredible peace. I still can’t believe it, looking back. I had worked for so hard and for so long to avoid another c-section, but when I knew I would be having one, I was completely calm and peaceful. However, I wasn’t ready yet. I still needed more time to say good-bye to Kevin. When I wasn’t pregnant anymore, then it would become real that I didn’t have a baby. I was also very scared to see what he looked like. I didn’t know if I could bear seeing my own child, dead. So I slept and rested until around 6am (Sunday morning), when another VE indicated I was still at 2 cm. At that point the dr. said she could do a c-section then, or I could continue trying. By then I was ready. Mark and I then spent a few minutes alone, preparing to say good-bye to our son.

One funny moment occurred when the doctor was trying to inform me of the risks of a c-section before I signed. She listed a couple risks, and then I said, “Oh, and don’t forget placenta accreta, placenta abruptia, ectopic pregnancy, long-term bladder infections…” and Denise interjected, “Yeah, Katherine’s the best example of informed consent you’ll ever have!”

When we got into the operating room, I was crying pretty hard. I was given Versed to calm me down, but it knocked me out so I was asleep when Kevin was born. I remember opening my eyes and seeing Mark holding him, and then falling back asleep. I kept struggling to wake up so I could see my baby, but I kept falling asleep. That was so frustrating. I knew my time with my baby was so limited, and it was being wasted. Denise was in the room during the c-section, so she was able to fill me in afterward on things that I wasn’t aware of. She said that not only was all the amniotic fluid gone, but the blood in the cord was gone, too. She also said that when Kevin was born, everyone in the room knew that he hadn’t just died. That had been my initial impression, as well, when I first saw him in the recovery room. He weighed 4 ½ pounds (at 37 weeks, 6 days). [My twins had weighed 7 and 6 ½ pounds when they were born at 38 ½ weeks, and Kyle was born at 40 weeks weighing 7 pounds.] I had a prenatal visit on Thursday, November 7 (the day before the labor started), when a heartbeat was recorded for Kevin. So we had all assumed that he died during the labor. But from his size and general appearance, it was clear that he had been dead longer than three days. This was later confirmed in the autopsy report as well.

The other conclusion I came to when I was first able to hold him was that the c-section was necessary so that we could hold him. I was able to ask Kevin’s spirit this later, and he confirmed that because of his physical condition, he wouldn’t have stayed intact during a vaginal delivery. I cannot imagine the nightmare that would have been.

Well, this has become so incredibly long that I will try to end soon. We held Kevin in recovery, and were able to keep him with us the rest of the day on Sunday. The midwives came back and made plaster imprints of his hands and feet, and the doula took beautiful black & white pictures of him that have become my most-treasured keepsakes. My parents brought Brittany, Spencer and Kyle to the hospital to see Kevin, and Mark’s parents came as well.

The amazing thing about my hospital stay is that it was incredibly healing. The c-section recovery was amazingly uncomplicated. Each nurse that I had was a blessing, so compassionate and so respectful. Again, I had expected hospital personnel to perceive me as very irresponsible because of my plans for an HBA2C, but that wasn’t the case. (Well, until the doctor who discharged me. But I choose to view the five minutes with her as an example of what I was spared the rest of the time I was there.) We also were better off in the hospital because they were set up to take care of a baby who had died. There were many details we didn’t have to consider, because they were taken care of for us. It is very significant to me that I was so disappointed in my midwives, and so impressed with the care I received in the hospital. Certainly, everything about Kevin’s birth turned out differently than I had anticipated.

I think back to the promise I received early in the pregnancy that I would be surrounded by angels during Kevin’s delivery. I certainly felt the support and strength of unseen angels. But there were also earthly angels who were sent to me, as well. I think of Mark, who gave everything he had to support me during labor, when we knew our baby had already died. I think of my RP, of the doctor on call, of the nurses who cared for me, and all the friends and family who supported me (including Jaya, who has given me so much emotional support through her e-mails!).

So, I finish typing this on Sunday, January 26. It has been 11 weeks today since Kevin was born. I still miss him so much, and in many ways the grief is just starting to hit. I want to share this birth story here at ICAN because the women here will understand why it was so important to me to plan a VBAC, and why a homebirth was such an important part of that plan. So many of you here gave me the courage to plan the homebirth. I am so glad that I planned it, and that I truly believed that I could do it. In the end, that was what I needed to do…believe in myself…and I did.

(If anyone has questions, feel free to ask them. Even though this is so long, I’m sure I’ve left things out)

Love, Katherine
Mom to Brittany & Spencer (c/s 11/94), Kyle (c/s 12/99) and Spirit Baby Kevin (c/s 11/02)"

[KatherineinCA]

Healing the effects of circumcision:

Mothernurture, yes, I have had some experience with this. My favorite web site is caroltuttle.com. Her book, Remembering Wholeness, is the most important book I've read during my healing process, from both the abuse and from Kevin's death. She references RET (Rapid Eye Therapy) [different from the EMDR that psychiatrists have been using] and EFT (Emotional Freedom Technique) on her site. Both of these techniques have been very effective for me. I have done some work with my eight year-old son around his circumcision, using some of these principles. I would like to do more, though. The first few RET appointments focus specifically on re-birthing and healing birth trauma. They ask questions about the birth (forceps, vacuum, c-section, etc.) and focus on those circumstances. They have an entire appointment focused on circumcision, which I would like to do for my boys at some point. The practitioner who has helped me the most uses some EFT along with a different therapy that I don't know the name of. My parents have traveled from CA to Utah twice now to work with Carol Tuttle, and based on their experience, and my own just from reading her book and listening to her CD's, I think she's doing wonderful work. The great thing about her is her focus on Christ. She believes firmly that the Atonement is the source of all healing. I have had some very powerful experiences during my energy-work appointments confirming to me that the Atonement is indeed the power that makes the energy work possible. I really do believe we are not meant to carry the effects of trauma throughout our lives. The Savior truly can remove them from us and heal us completely. For me, energy work has been a very effective way of facilitating that healing. I'm happy to talk more with anyone about this, feel free to ask more if I'm not being clear enough.

I read an amazing article on Jeanne Parvati Baker's web site (I think it was her...), that discussed all sorts of emotional effects from circumcision.

About how circumcision affects marriages:

I used to subscribe to Christiane Northrup's newletter, and she devoted an entire issue to physically healing circumcision. I didn't save it (why, oh why did I throw it out?!) but I remember that there are techniques for actually stretching the skin down, gradually, over a period of time, and basically undoing the effects of the circumcision. There are men who have done this, and if I remember correctly, there are even books and other resources on the subject. I didn't pursue it because my husband is so certain that his circumcision didn't affect him in the slightest. (You know, any suggestion that something's wrong with him... ):rolleyes:

I do remember that someone in the article said that if men weren't circumcised, rape would be much less frequent because they wouldn't be able to stand the pain of an unlubricated vagina (hope that's not too graphic!). I think I need to read the book that's been recommended, it sounds excellent.

[ldsapmom]

Katherine- I can see why people might not feel comfortable in your presence. As I was reading your story, my three year old came up to tell me something. The thought just hit me how lucky I am to have him. He had a severe septic infection after birth and we almost lost him. Just the trauma we experienced by having a neonate in the ICN for two weeks was life-changing. I would try to hide from my neighbors when I would come home for whatever short amount of time I had between being with him at the hospital -- I was so afraid they would ask where my baby was! Everytime I talked about him, I would cry. I went into Target to buy myself an after-baby shirt -- and when I got up to the register I just started bawling. The hormones of the postpartum woman are complicated enough without having the additional stressors of worrying about my baby's perilous condition!

But if I knew you in real life, I am sure I would not be one to shun you -- I tend to befriend the underdog, and I am so tied to maternal/baby issues I am sure I would have been a support. I can only know if I help someone later on. And both your and Alissakae's stories help us know how to help in situations such as these. I am a firm believer sometimes we are only meant to help one other person when we are hit with a trial of such great magnitude. Thank you for sharing. Someday I want you to introduce your babies to me.

Back to the circumcision topic: It took me a while to realize part of the reason my dh was so against it was it would be, for him, like an admission that he was less than perfect -- like I would have liked him if he were intact better. I told him that had nothing to do with it! I told him I loved just as he was, that it did not make a difference to me, especially since he was the only man I was personally acquainted with. I told him that was his parents' choice and I respect that, but for our sons I did not feel it was right.

I have read and studies many things about circumcision and I do recall reading that men who are intact do not usually require that their partner use lubricant. The foreskin helps keep the penis lubricated.

The thing I really respect about Dr. Fleiss is he is Jewish. Not only is he an educated doctor against circumcision, but he is also a Jewish man who is trying to buck the current traditions and offer alternatives to Bris Milahs.

Personally, I think religion is about the only reason one should be circumsized. At least within the Jewish religion it is performed as a ceremony, a welcoming into the Jewish community, rather than a sterile, surgical procedure. It is done by a holy man, a Mohel who is greatly invested in the boy's future, spiritual and physical, rather than a doctor who has no real feeling for the child. But easy for me to say, as one of my sons is circ'd (at least his was done by a surgeon -- not too many guys can say that...).

[leavesarebrown]

What do you mean about most guys can't say that they were circ'd by surgeons Ldsapmom? Obstetrics is a surgical specialty. OBs ARE surgeons. Why do you think they are so danged anxious to cut?

[ldsapmom]

I was meaning specifically pediatricians. One of our doctors had gone on to receive a fellowship in pediatric urology as a surgeon.

[youngnhappymamma]

This is an interesting conversation, regarding circumsision. It saddens me that so many (especially LDS, it seems) don't even give it a second thought. I FIRMLY believe that before any parent is allowed to give consent to have their son circ'd they should be REQUIRED to watch the procedure done...in real life AND a video. This would have saved my two boys foreskin. They are both circ'd. We did research. We knew that only about half of all boys now a days are circ'd...but we also didn't know anyone really who was intact. We mostly relied on the advise of our parents. My dh's dad was under the impression that we should circ for health considerations (obviously he didn't know very much about the subject). My mom has another prospective. My father is intact. She says that were he circ'd, they would have a better sex life. She has said this for years. I haven't not pressed for details of why, but I think I will in the future. So she was another main factor in why we chose circ. With ds #1 dh went down to the hospital nursery with him to have it done. With ds #2 I wanted to be with him and we did it about a week after he was born in a gp's office. It was HORRIFING!!!!!!!!!!! I have said this before but it felt like sexual assault! And the poor baby kept crying out in pain dispite the "good block" (good pain block) the nurse kept commenting on. My mother was there with me. We were both just about bawling. She now does not support circ. now that she has seen what it really IS (and she had five sons...all circ'd). Any future sons we have will remain intact and whole. My boys have already noticed that one of the boys they play with (he is younger and still in diapers...they observed a diaper change) in intact and my 3 year old asked why his penis looked funny. I can't wait until they are old enough to fully grasp and understand the whole situation...I especially can't wait until we have another son and they can see first hand an intact foreskin and know that that is normal.

[mothernurture]

Katherine-thank you for sharing your birth story with this group of women. No one can know (other than mothers who have lost babies) the intensity of grief you have/are experiencing with the heartbreaking loss of your son. It is moments like this that one wants to bear another's burden and yet any effort to do so is inept. You are a courageous woman. I hope and pray that you continue to feel supported by angels (earthly and otherwise) along your journey. I was interested in hearing your poignant account of the release work you did during labor and how you needed this process before you could give birth.

My cranial-sacral massage therapist introduced me to the topic of RET some time ago. I'd like to learn more about it. I completely agree that we were not meant to carry the burden of trauma/abuse. Many people have experienced things that they would like to process and then get past but don't know where to start. I think your post will be very helpful. I used to get Christiane Northrup's newsletter as well. I missed the article on circumcision. If anyone out there is familiar with it and still has access to it, could you post the link???

I have not yet had the conversation with my dh to talk about his circumcision (and perhaps make the suggestion that it could have had lasting psychological effects). Need to read ldsmama's book suggestions first. My dh is just now starting to be receptive to the whole mind-body connection as he heals his back injury and searches for natural (rather than surgical) approaches to healing. I'm still looking for a good self-healing book for adults who experienced abuse as children.

[youngnhappymamma]

mothernurture- my mother has been on an almost 30 year journey to heal the abuse she sufferend as a child. She has come SO far and healed so much and grown tremendous leaps and bounds and I have been fortunate enough that she has shared it all with me. One of the books that really was a turning point for her was "I Don't Want To Talk About It" (a title that was also good for numerous light-hearted jokes!) by Terrence Real and is written for the male audience (although she got a whole lot out of it as a woman). Another great book is "Understanding Yourself and Others" by Kathy and Bill Kvols-Riedler ...this book is sort of a companion/model for "the course" which is a weekend long seminar of sorts where the participants work through issues and find truths to help them along, etc. Almost everyone in my family has gone through "the course" and it was a tremendous help....I recomend looking into it for your area. My mom also got a great deal of help from the John Bradshaw books...they are all about healing the inner child and protecting and helping that inner child who was abused and working through all of it to see the truth underneath all the lies victims of abuse are so used to telling themselves. John Bradshaw also holds seminars across the country. My mom went to one last year about "taking care of business with mother" or something....about healing the wounds/relationship from/with your mother. My mom's mom died when I was very young and my mom had never been able to feel good about her and just loathed her really for many reasons...and in that one weekend was able to heal it and move on and feel good about her mom (not good about what her mom did, of course...but good about her mom). Anyway, I hope some/any of that can help your dh.........and they are all good books for everyone...not just those who have abuse issues to deal with, etc. I highly recomend them.

[youngnhappymamma]

Katherine- thank you again for sharing your birth story and letting us in on what you have been through. I'm sure it also helps you for us to "know" your sweet Kevin. I am sure he is so proud of you....and at the same time I bet he feels for you and hurts that his death caused you so much pain. It will be a wonderful reunion in heaven when you are reuinited!! :love

[KatherineinCA]

Thanks to everyone for your compassionate responses to Kevin's