Do you think men should supervise birth?

[heartmama]

I've thought about this time and again for years.

In the industrialized world, men have a starring role regarding female health. Male gynecologists, obstetricians, even midwives (midhusbands?) are everywhere, and have been for over a century.

This persistently gives me...the CREEPS. I often wonder if this is really why our birth system is so draconian. Is this why women go around nowadays feeling like their bodies are too dangerous and mysterious to trust or understand, whether with birth or breastfeeding? Doesn't it seem that a fundamentally pathological attitude towards female health is unavoidable if the group "writing the books" on female health are NOT female??

Is there any historical precendent for men being in charge of birth and female health? Are there any cultures in the past where men domimated the care of women in labor/birth/aftercare?

How do all of you feel about this? Does the idea of male obgyns or midwives feel generally inappropriate to any of you?

I know from what anthropological studies I have seen, men in primitive cultures not only stayed away from birth care, they sometimes were banned from intervening or being witnesses. If anyone got involved, it was always an experienced older woman, or group of female relatives. Frankly, this seems like a pretty sound practice. Of course I support fathers being as involved as the mother wants, but in general, I just think women are wiser and safer and better educated by other women in this area.

Any thoughts?

Heartmama

[jtsmom]

oooooo I have also thought a lot about this. I can't type too much, but I chose midwives for this very reason. I don't believe that men make good birthing attendants. Sorry, it just doesn't work like that. For my dd, the midwife didnt get to the hosp in time, so a dr caught the baby. luckily it was a woman.

also wanted to mention.... have you noticed men take over roles that are historically womens work? delivering babies, teaching, cooking, nursing (not bf)

For example, female nurses, male obs, female teachers, male principles, female waitresses, male chefs, male doctors, female nurses. See what I'm saying? It seems that areas that were always the womens domain are now being overseen by men.

Can't wait to see what direction this conversation will go. But, definately, not comfortable with a man delivering my babies.

jtsmom

[fourlittlebirds]

Birth is a normal and private body function. Not only do I not feel the need for anyone to help me with it, it would be inhibiting for for me (and therefore a hindrance to the process itself) to have someone try. And I do not believe that it is necessary in most cases to have someone fiddling around "down there", watching, manipulating, and at last delivering. And if it's not necessary, what the hell for? This is my body, and the most private part of my body, I don't want it being treated like a piece of meat, with me having to pretend that it's somehow okay simply because the person watching me happens to know something (though probably much less than myself) about the birth process.

However, if it was an emergency situation and help was necessary, I would much prefer (all other things being equal) that it be a woman helping me. Some vestige of modesty, I guess. Although I have to say that though I have met few medical professionals that were actually true *healers*, the ones that were were all women.

[heartmama]

jtsmom, glad to hear someone else is just as bothered by this. You are SO right about men always taking the *highest* position nowadays in area's that women traditionally excelled in (cooking, cleaning, child rearing). I thought about that before too!!

I mean, how many professions are there nowadays where women are truly considered *the BEST* by society. At the moment I can't think of any!

Sweetwater, your preaching to the choir :love

I share many of your sentiments, and STRONGLY prefered not to be touched or *guided* in any way by the midwife when in labor. I felt I did not need or want that kind of help. But, historically women do tend to have some kind of attendant, not in every culture, but in most I've heard. And it's always been a woman who attended, and nobody even considered men for that role. I don't think it is coincidental that the highest c section rate and the use of drugs and other interventions are most associated with birth cultures run by men.

Heartmama

[saige]

TOTALLY agree.I also chose midwives for this reason.I had a male obgyn with dd#1,and got really sick of him doing internals (he did one every week from 36 wks-I was 19 and knew nothing) and saying "this is a bit uncomfortable" and me thinking how on earth would you know?? Get out of my body!My midwives were soooo much better and I know it's because they were women.Now saying that I know there are exceptions I'm sure -good male dr-bad women dr-but I feel like it should be a women controlled industry (anything to do with womens bodies).I've always wondered what would make a man decide he wants to be a gyny?? Never mind I dont want to know.

[jasnjakesmama]

I totally agree with you Mama's. I think it's high time women reclaimed birthing and midwifery as their own. Would you want a mechanic who never owned a car?
There are a couple of chapters in the beginning of the book Gentle Birth Choices that goes into the history of how birth came to be a male dominated thing. It was interesting and got me quite up in arms when I was pregnant. Of course now i have mommy brain and I can't remember what I read. :rolleyes:

[youngnhappymamma]

Oh my heck......this is soooooooooo one of my biggest irritations!!!!! I have never once been to a male ob/gyn nor will I ever...it feels soooooo wrong for a man to be directing and telling women about something they can NEVER have personal experience with....living in a woman's body and having female genitilia. I feel so sorry for all my friends who have only been to male ob's...........it just feels soooo inherently wrong! This might be going a bit far....but almost like rape. A male (in my opinion) should never have control over female parts in a dominant way. I especially hate the fact that male ob's (and female's too) are so into intervention...telling a woman her body can't do something that his body will never be able to do and trying to take over....almost like HE is the one giving birth. I know I am being a bit extremist here...... but sometimes I feel like male ob's should be outlawed! I know there are plenty of good one's out there...but really......why on earth would a young, college-age man decide he wants to pursue a career where he will spend the rest of his life touching and directing and looking at female private parts???? I just don't understand........

[candiland]

HALLELUJAH!!!!:D
I'm not the only one who feels this way!! I'm sure that there are some competent, earthy men out there who are ob's/midhusbands, but for the most part, I cannot understand why a woman would willingly give her power over to a male doctor to control and manipulate. I recently spoke with my sister about this, who said, "God, I think it's normal for men to want to look at females' body parts!! I'd never go to a woman... why is SHE so interested in vaginas and stuff?" AAACKKK!!! What a twisted way to perceive society, and our bodies, in general!!

[Mommy22B]

I read a book called Brought to Bed about the history of childbirth in America. It was pertty interesting to see how men and "obstetrics" too k over midwifery. It was sad to see that it was the women of the time who wanted to turn the whole thing over t o men. I am glad there is a resurgance of midwifery today and I am honored that i am a part of it.
I always felt sill y because I have alway s wanted female gyns. How sad it is to me that I felt silly about that. Our yoni and oarts of the like are so special, even sacred I'd say. The medicalization of them is really really sad. There is no respect. I would always choose a female OB or Gyn. However the female OB that "delivered" my first dd didn't have any children and to me that is almost as bad as having a man ob. How does she know how it feels?
I really loved my midwife who I had with Hero. She was very respectful of me and my privacy.
I think this male taking over womens health is just part of the big big problem we have of not respecting women and sex and birth. I really think rape happens more often than it used to because of this lack of respect. i also think teen pregnancy and general "sleeping around"among people are also signs of it.
Anyway, I could go on and on. But bsically I agree that men do not belong in this field. I think women today are pressured to put aside their feelings about their "private parts" and treat them as they would their foot or hand, and that is wrong. We should feel free to choose whoever we want to deal with those areas and not feel bad for not choosing a man.

[fourlittlebirds]

"But, historically women do tend to have some kind of attendant, not in every culture, but in most I've heard."

Yeah, but from what I've read, this kind of attending is very different from modern midwifery, which takes its cues largely from obstetrics. Like the women would sit around and do ritual type stuff, or offer comfort, or whatever. They were also most likely women the laboring woman knew all her life, neighbors, relatives. And most likely they weren't doing dilation checks and giving the laboring woman ultimatums for progress. ;)

[pina la nina]

I basically thought the way you guys did until I had my dd. Afterwards I had a long talk with one of my best friends (female) who is in med school (no kids). She was comparing her experiences helping women in labor to my experience being in labor. And man, she came away just stunned. She said she wished she could go back and re-help all those women because she regretted some of the things she'd said, or done, or assumed. You might say this is because she was trained by the male ob profession, this is true in part, but she was also acting on her own instincts.

On the other hand my dh was amazing, very attentive, caring, worked tirelessly holding me, rubbing my back, etc. And he did better at this than my own mom - just because he's physically stonger, but also because he was able to tune into me more.

So all I'm saying is - it doesn't take a woman to be a good labor coach (should you desire one.) And women don't necessarily make good coaches at all.

I do think the ob professions should be dominated by women, with women's health and the naturalness of childbirth in mind, but if my childless friend could learn to be a caring compassionate coach, and my dh could - then anybody with the intent to learn that could be, male or female. They have to learn from laboring women though - that should be obvious!

[crowbaby]

My good friend e-mailed me the link to this conversation. I'm so glad she did and I know why she did. I am studying to be a Bradley childbirth educator and for one of my projects I interviewed a male midwife. He was very interesting and I think pretty well grounded. My only real problem with him is that he practices alone and I like when midwives are in groups so they have back-ups. I might have a different idea if I didn't have a couple of midwife groups to choose from in a big city.

It is strange. I believe that women have the best chance of being supportive birth partners. However, that does not necessarily make them so. The OB we started our pregnancy with was a woman and she was condescending and dismissive. She had a 95% epidural rate and did routine epis. We moved to a midwife group just for the female support we have been talking about.

Many of the groundbreaking writers and natural birth activists are men, Dr. William Sears, Dr. Michel Odent, Dr. Robert Bradley etc. I think that it is the wholesale medicalization of birth, and the fact that many women act like victims of their Dr's or Midwives that has brought us to this place. The idea that women are inherently broken, other, not right, weak, unable to birth without assistance has been bred into our western culture for a number of generations now.

Men, by and large, are problem solvers. They want fix any problems they find and if women suffer under the idea that they and their pregnancy is a problem, men and women of the medical mind with try to fix them with drugs and operations.

Women have been socialized to think of themselves as the "other", you know, not quite right; not a part of culture. I think it has a lot to do with the historical view of a male God, and the female as the sinful "other". Man is made in the image of God. Not in the Creator's bodily image though. God is a spirit. How can It be male or female. It's like my husband, who talked me into a homebirth by the way (Thank you, thank you honey), says, "Can you really visualize God with a penis?"

Karen :)

[jtsmom]

Wanted to respond to Saiges ob doing pelvic exams each week for 4 weeks. I was scared of this with #1 pg, had heard all my friends mention how uncomfortable this was. How relieved was I when the midwives said, "Why would I check your cervix? The baby will be here soon, it doesn't take a pelvic to know that!":rolleyes:

:LOL

Other than that, I just wanted to say:"AMEN SISTERS!":thumb

[TrinitysMama]

Of course I don't mind having my husband around, but I will never have a male Dr, nurse, midwife, or male anything else poking around at my vagina. Women only, thank you.

There is a part of my mom's birth story that really makes my skin crawl. She planed to go natural. I was posterior. She pushed for a long time. Flat on her back. She was never allowed to get up or move around or anything. Her male Dr came in and decide to go in with forceps to turn me. He cut a HUGE episiotomy. From her vagina all the way through her sphincter muscle. As he was sewing her up he jokingly said, "Well, you're going to remember me in the morning!"

To me, that is the most disgusting and insensitive thing I have ever heard. It seems horrible for a doctor to mutilate a woman's body and then laugh as he puts her back together. My mom, on the other hand, doesn't see anything wrong with it. I really feel sorry for her for her experience. She thinks that thats just the way things should be.

[saige]

That's horrid and disgusting what he said.

By the way,my midwife was horrified that my obgyn had done those exams-she couldn't figure out why he would do them.And I truly believed I didnt have a choice! How disturbing is that??

[jasnjakesmama]

My midwife didn't even SEE my vagina until 2 weeks before I gave birth. she asked me if she could ceck it out real quick so she would know what she was working with. :lol

[Katrina]

I agree that women should be the main players in women's health. But, I have known a lot of women who visited female ob/gyn's only to find them more insensitive than the males they had seen. One of my mom's friends is going through this right now. I have only had a male doctor look at my vagina once, when I was pregnant with my daughter. I go to a practice where there are 3 midwives who take care of pregnant women most of the time, and a male doctor who advises them on difficult cases. My cervix was thinning at 20 weeks, so he examined me and discussed whether or not I would want a cerclage. We decided not to have one, and he was very supportive. I really appreciated his advice, and expertise in more difficult pregnancies.
Historically, it was not until fairly recently that men were even allowed in births. I read in one book that in the 17th century, I think, a male doctor dressed as a woman to watch a birth, and when he was discovered, he was burnt at the stake.

[newmomlearning]

I don't think men should have a "supervisory" role in the birth process.

I don't think their temperments are designed for it. They're way too impatient & have to DO SOMETHING. They can't just chill and let birth take its natural course, they need to hurry-it-up and do something, ANYTHING, rather than wait.

They also have this crazy notion that they can do BETTER than Nature. They're nuts about "improving" on Nature's Way. Silly, misguided guys.

I agree that we have the multitude of interventions today because of the introduction of men into the birth chambers.

[fourlittlebirds]

This discussion has gone in an interesting direction. I think I said before that other things being equal I'd be more comfortable with a woman rather than a man attending me in birth. Of course, rarely in life is anything equal. It's true, as one poster mentioned, that men tend to be of the mindset that they have to do something. Not good. It's also true, as another mentioned, that female OBs are often as bad or worse than men. It's like they feel like they have something to prove. Also, a female birth attendant that has had a birth herself has a very personal idea of what birth should be, and she may project that onto her client. I've had a couple of birth attendants who did just that, believing that I was over-reacting because it hadn't been that bad for them when they gave birth.

So yeah, it really has to be taken on an individual basis. But in the abstract, if somebody really has to be peering at my crotch, having a woman do so feels less weird to me. It may not be rational, after all it's weird to have any person you're not normally intimate with fiddling around down there. But I know myself, and I know that given a nice female OB vs. a nice male OB, I'd tense up far less having to spread my legs for the woman. It shouldn't matter, perhaps, but it does. My brain might say, "hey this is really okay, really it is!", but my body would protest.

That said, if I were in a situation in which I needed support (and I do much prefer to give birth without a birth partner or coach,) I'd take my husband over anyone, any day. As my lover and best friend, the person that I am physically and emotionally closest to, he has quite a bit to offer me that no other man or woman does.

[Greaseball]

I cannot think of anything scarier than trusting a man with my body, my health, and my life. On my birth plan I wrote "I WILL NOT ALLOW ANY MEN OTHER THAN MY PARTNER INTO THE ROOM!"

Men know nothing about what it is like to be a woman. They may have an understanding of how a woman's body functions, but that simply is not enough. I think men go into the OB/GYN field to act out their hatred for women.

This is why I do not follow the instructions of Bradley, Lamaze, or Dick-Read - they are men! Also, I don't understand why Braxton-Hicks contractions were named after the male doctor who "discovered" them, rather than the woman who experienced them. Braxton-Hicks discovered the contractions the way Columbus discovered America, which means he didn't.

Men make the rules in the obstetrical community which lead to death and serious injury. Men invented Cytotec and Pitocin. It was men who decided that babies are better off when they are separated from their mothers immediately after birth.

I wouldn't trust a male doctor with my jacket, let alone the life of my child.

[youngnhappymamma]

I think it goes without saying that husbands belong at the birth of their babies, but I still feel soooooo uncomfortable with the fact that there are so many male birth attendants. Yes, I know that female ob's can be more harsh and all that than men, but maybe if they didn't feel like they had to live up to a man's view of being a dr they wouldn't be that way. Plus, I still just feel really violated that men are out there examining parts and giving orders/suggestions about body parts they don't have and have no personal knoweldge of what it is like. Men do not belong peering between women's legs and certainly not feeling around and all that (hubbys and the like excluded, of course:) ) and especially not when a woman is in such a subordanant (sp?) position as lying on her back with her feet held back in stirrups. It just feels soooo wrong and unnatural to me.

[JenniferJeffrey]

I love this thread. My midwife is a woman, I have a female PCP, and the only male in the birth experience was my dh (and my ds being born). I agree about reclaiming the birthing experience. I was so shocked during pregnancy at all the fear based coments I got about birth from women in response to my choice to have a home birth. We women need to reclaim our power and confidence in ourselves and in our bodies and stop giving that power over to men who take all our choices away. We don't need all that technology. Birth is natural and normal and wonderful and primal. I love the idea of women passing on knowlege and attending each other for childbirth.

Have you all read the Red Tent? I think you would like it.

Jennifer

[candiland]

I just wanted to address what zoo keeper said in her last post.
The medical technology that men brought about in the field of childbirth actually HARMED women and babies more than it helped them. When men entered the field of birthing, the women were routinely rendered unconcious and their babies literally pulled from the womb with forceps, which were created by a man named Dr. DeLee, who truly and honestly believed a woman could not birth a baby on her own. It was the advancement of STERILIZATION TECHNIQUES and healthy lifestyles that brought about a reduction of maternal/fetal death... the technology that "men" invented to "save" women and babies helped 5% of them; it harmed the 95% who did not need it...

and these men taught that childbirth was a dangerous, secretive, and shameful business that only men could safely surprivise. And that rings true to many women today.

[heartmama]

Just want to thank everyone for their very insightful replies on this thread. It is great to know that other woman have thought about this and have the same feelings of dis-ease regarding men running the birth show....

Heartmama

[CanOBeans]

Originally posted by candiland
were routinely rendered unconcious and their babies literally pulled from the womb with forceps, which were created by a man named Dr. DeLee, who truly and honestly believed a woman could not birth a baby on her own

Actually, it wasn't DeLee, it was Chamberlain who invented forceps. DeLee was responsible for the popularization of the episiotomy. :mad:

[Katambra]

I don't have a problem with male obstetricians. I think that men are just as capable of recognizing the miracle of birth and for my first birth, my husband was an excellent coach. Sometimes I think that women can actually be worse. I also don't feel like I gave up control or power to my ob. He was understanding, sympathetic and extremely kind. He knew when I would be embarrassed and was excellent at distracting me. He respected everything I requested regarding my births. I had one exam by a female and she was awful. It grossed me out big time to be honest. I think whatever a person is most comfortable with is what they should do.
Kat
P.S. Anyone have a problem with female fire fighters, presidents of companies and urologists? Do you think that women should give men the old "turn your head and cough"?

[bluevervain]

I spend years swearing that men shouldn't be allowed to be ob/gyns or midwives, period.

I was lucky enough to be doing a midwifery internship in Texas where I met several amazing midwives, one of whom happened to be a man. Robin was one of the most respectful and kind people I had ever met. He was gentle and always asked permission before he laid one hand on a woman, if she said no, he backed off. He taught me that there was more to being a great midwife than gender. I'd trust him to catch my baby...before some women I know.

To the ladies that would refuse an attendant based on whether or not the attendant had given or could give birth...please consider that there are dedicated midwives who spend years getting their training and then spend more years practicing before they can take the time to have their own families.

Please take the time to learn about the people you want at your birth. Don't reject someone out of hand. Ultimately, the only person who can pick the right attendant is you.

Love,
Christina

[lilyka]

I would never let anyone attend my birth (except for dh and he knows he is only allowed to do as he is told. none of this breath, your doing great cheerleader crap. what does he know) unless they had given birth themselves.

in defense of guys though. After I had my first one I had a male nurse do my follow up he was really young and just a student. he was soooooo sweet and nice. first of all he never once looked at anything I wouldn't have shown any guy on the street. Secondly when ever he was sent into to do whatever it is they are supposed to do with uteruses in the hospital (most of my friend equate it with getting punched in the stomach) he would barely touch me because he was scared of hurting me. He walked in once reight after I had finished pumping and I was crying because I hadn't gotten anything out (turned out the pump was hooked up wrong) he was very comporting and assured me something would come out sooner or later and took time to chit chat with me and tell me what a beautiful baby book I had and how smart it was of me to grab it. He aslo made sure i wasn't offended to have a male nurse and said if I was at all uncomfortable with it he would find me a female nurse. I really appreciated that. I am sure all that wore off as he completed his training.

I also wanted to comment on the whole pelvic exzam thing. My friend and I went through pregnancy and were due within 3 weeks of each other. She would ask me every week how far dialated I was and was genuinly shocked each time when I told her I didn't know because I hadn't had a pelvic exam throughout my preg. "How do you know where you are" she would constantly ask. My answer was, when I start having contractions I will have a baby really soon after. i was right.

[Beth]

This is an interesting discussion. I only want to add that I have heard that some women nurses are very insensitive and rude during labor. Being a woman doesn't make one a better birth-attendant. Being educated and sensitive makes one a better birth-attendant. IMHO:thumb

[candiland]

I agree that "women make better birth attendants" is a generalization. But for the most part, you'll find that most midwives are female and are *generally* a heck of a lot more hands-off than docs and ob's are.... now, most of the women ob's I know are part of the "Ol' Boys Club". That is, they do things the way they were taught in medical school, and most are no different than their male ob. counterparts. I only know of a couple truly "hands off" obstretricians in my area, and they are men. So I understand why some ladies are "sticking up for" male birth attendants, and I do agree that some males make better attendants than some females, but GENERALLY speaking, nothing beats a woman's touch;)

[lilyka]

Suffice to say there are a whole lot of people period who should be no where near a loboring woman. My main qualification (to the exception of Dr. English :) ) is that they have given birth, preferably at home, before. When someone says "I know it hurts" they had better be telling the truth.

[jengi33]

In defense of the nurses (as I am one!:)) I don't feel you have to have gone through childbirth before to be a good support person. Many of the best nurses (in terms of labor support) have been childless or had c-s. Including myself up until 2 years ago! I was also taught long ago to never say "I know it hurts" to a laboring woman and I never will again!

Also, just wanted to agree that the female ob-gyns that I have come in contact with, have been very agressive and interventionist in their care of laboring women.

[CatherineS]

Many great thoughts here. It has enlighted me regarding both sides.

I personally would not want to give birth with any other man present other than my husband. I chose a great female midwife to attend Hannah's birth at home. She is nurturing, respectful and kind, yet strong and empowering as well.

I want my care provider to understand, really understand what I'm going through. My midwife had given birth to 3 children when she delivered Hannah. She knew what it was like to have a good birth, and she knew what it was like to have a bad birth.

A man can not ever understand what it is to be with child, to give birth, to nurse a child, or have a hormone surge so strongs it brings waves of emotions that are sometimes difficult to deal with. I chose someone skilled and wise, who could also relate, understand, and and advise because she herself had been there too.

[Viola]

I'm just now reading this thread and find it very interesting. The huge episiotomy story angers me, and brings to mind that incident where the doctor carved his initials in a woman's abdomen while performing a c-section. It makes me want to hunt him down and take a hot branding iron to some part of him.

Growing up I wasn't happy at how most of the people in positions of authority were male, and how plenty of women seemed happy to keep it that way. My mother even told me once that she would never want to work for a female boss, which really irritated the heck out of me. Then later when she was a manager herself, she got upset when some people seemed not to respect her. Well, gosh mom, maybe they just don't approve of female bosses! :)

I remember as a very young child saying that I wanted to be a doctor when I grew up, and my sister said, "You can't be a doctor, you're a girl!" My mom actually corrected my sister and told her I could be a doctor and there were women doctors. This was in the early 70s, and I planned to be a doctor all my life until I was pre-med in college and realized there was no way I'd get into med school with my chemistry, calculus and physics grades. I had to do some major soul searching.

Anyway, I've always said I would only have a female gynecologist, but I knew at least two people who swore they would only have male ones. Part of it was I think they were "hung up" enough to feel like it was some lesbian sex act to have a pelvic exam done by a woman. That was part of the insinuations made. Well, if you are thinking of it in sexual terms, it doesn't seem any better to have some man you don't know doing it. But both of my friends also said that they just didn't think that women were sympathetic to a woman's fears over gynecological exams because they were women themselves and had to get it done also. Men tended to be a little more careful. I think it is just and individual thing.

I was very definite about wanting a female OB. I actually wanted my sister's, because she sounded wonderful and I actually got to observe a birth with her and was very impressed with her gentleness and manner. But I was living across the country when I got pregnant, so I just had to pick one. I picked a woman who was nice and had a child of her own, but ended up scheduling me for an induction when I was something like 28 weeks along. I remember going up to make my co-pay and the woman at the desk said, "Oh, I just scheduled your induction!" I thought she had to be wrong because I was no where near term. It turns out when I was 38 weeks along, I found out my induction had indeed been scheduled for my due date. Then my OB started saying things like I was going to have a big baby and she wasn't going to do anything heroic like let me push for 2.5 hours or use a vacuum extractor. If there were any signs of trouble, I'd have to have a c-section. I cancelled my induction the night before I was to go in, and I went into to labor four days later. The doctor on call was a male and I really liked him. He was very gentle and quiet, didn't do an episiotomy and said that I would have to push for at least 3 hours before they would consider any intervention.

So I guess my thinking now is that in the mainstream hospital birthing world, there can be plenty of forward-thinking, gentle men and women, and just as many that are hideous. In the natural birth setting, however, where women are in touch with their own bodies and birth isn't a medicated procedure to be performed on a mother, I think it is more natural to have female attendants. I would think that men who believed in this model would naturally defer to women as the ones better suited to be midwives.

[fourlittlebirds]

I just had a thought. Some women do not like men between their legs because they feel there are sexual undertones. For those of you who are heterosexual, how would you feel if the woman or man between your legs was gay?

I've been thinking and thinking about this, and I would still (other things being equal, of course,) prefer the woman to the man. That to me says that this is not, at least in my mind, about sexual modesty and/or fears, but something else. (I'm not sure what.)

I have recently been thinking that the reason some women choose midwives is because they have this archetypal vision in their heads of women helping women through a rite of passage that is specific to women. There is something romantic about the concept, in a goddess-based mythology fashion. I mean, you know, the woman go off to the menstrual hut to bleed together and beat drums or do whatever they do. There is something of this, perhaps, lost or not able to be shared when a man is involved.

Yes, some men are sensitive and some women are insensitive, and yes I'd rather have a sensitive man than an insensitive woman examing my genitals. But given a sensitive qualified man or woman, I'd still choose the woman, and not, as I've illustrated, because "men just shouldn't look at a woman's genitals, except for her husband." So there's something else, and I think it's just about the fact that women are women and men are men and some things can't just be gender neutralized any more than they can be mechanized. In a hospital birth, perhaps it is easier to gender neutralize the experience because it already is mechanized.

But why then do I prefer my husband over any woman as a birth attendant? Hm, well good question. And I think the answer to that is that I actually don't prefer him. I wanted my husband at the birth because it is an amazing thing to witness the birth of your own child, and I knew that would be a priceless gift to give to him. He was not, however, really a part of it. He was supportive and helpful and happy to be there, but he was not part of the process. It was a woman thing, not a man-and-woman thing.

I think that if I lived in a different culture in which the husband-wife connection is not the end-all be-all, in which women are emotionally and physically close to each other, the archetype ritual of woman-with-woman (midwife) would have been joyfully and satisfactorily played out. But (while I have female friends and family who I love) I have no women like THAT in my life.

Regardless, that archetype remains in our psyche, and I think that's why we tend to feel more right (not necessarily morally but in terms of what feels normal and natural) about having our medical labor attendants be women.

[Greaseball]

I guess what I mean is that I wouldn't want a male professional to be there - of course I want dh there! He was amazingly helpful.

I guess, to be fair, women shouldn't be proctologists either. Although the male patient is still more powerful than the female doctor, so maybe it's different. Also, in the case of labor and delivery, you trust any professionals there with your life and your baby's life. Pretty scary if all you get are men!

I would not mind a lesbian doc (although I probably wouldn't know, unless she kept telling me she was a lesbian, which would be weird...) because lesbians, after all, are women! Women do not usually sexually assault other women.

Also, I really wouldn't feel comfortable with a woman who had not given birth. I've had drug counselors who never took drugs, and it just did not work.

[lilyka]

My dh gets to be there when the baby comes out because he was there when it was put in. His only role in labor this time will to be excited about the birth. He knows nothing baout what it is like to be in labor and it really pissed me off the first time when he started "coaching" even though I had signed him up for that role. This time I hired a friend for a doula who has done this five times and knows what pain is.

The whole coaching thing is off topic but really think about it. How do you think a football team would feel if I marched out onto the feild and started coaching them? Would I be qualified if I had taken 5 months of classes and watched some videos of teams playing and practiced yelling plays? No because I had never played before, I have never even been through training. Would it make me any better because the team wanted me there? Not likely. I would still b e a coach who had no idea how it felt to be tackled.

So I don't expect dh to be my coach. I have tried it once and hated it. last time he was assistant coach and did o.k. This time I just want him to focus on being into it himself instead of doing what he thinks is helpful. Actually I will be happy if he stays awake this time.:rolleyes:

[kama'aina mama]

The more I think on it the more convinced I am that the gender of the attendant matters very little to me. It is the attitude I am interested in. There are men and women involved in baby delivery with a wide range of ideas. Some, of both genders are still convinced that without interventions the whole thing will go to hell in a handbasket. There are others who have a tremendous confidence in the ability of a woman to birth her babies. I want the second kind. If it happens to come with a penis attached I don't give a fig.

All other things being equal, two great birth attendents available who just want to hang out and see if I need any help... I would probably choose a woman over a man for the same reason I prefer women musicians. Their voices make more sense in my head. There is a resonance. But not so much I would not quiz the crap out of a woman and make sure she's not a wolf in sheeps clothing as someone else here has said. Too many of us have been led down the garden path by people who give lip service to 'natural' childbirth.

[crowbaby]

I had just the opposite experience than lilyka. My dh was the one who said, "Maybe we should think about homebirth," when we found out that the birth center was closing and it was either home or hospital. He knew I could not have dealt with the hospital before I did. He stayed with me the entire time, coached me just when I needed it, and just did an all around great job. It was like he knew me and my abilities better than I did myself. He also got us through the first few weeks of breast feeding when I thought my nipples were going to burst into flames.

I was lucky enough to have one midwife, a nurse, my mil and sil, good friend, and my dh at the birth. It was a mostly all women show, but I don't think I would have done it without dh there. He was great.

Would I have done it with a male birth attendant? If he was like Dr. Sears, or Dr. Odent, or Dr. Bradley, (after his episiotmy phase) and they acted like midwives (staying with you, giving you encouragement, mostly from the other side of the room). Sure. Although I would never give up my midwife. Lori is da bomb.

Karen :)

[hypatia]

I agree that what matters is how sensitive your caregiver is. Many women are brusque and aggressive, and many men are caring and compassionate. I would much rather have a compassionate caregiver, regardless of gender.

My fundamental belief is that it's wrong to discriminate against people for a job based on their gender. A lot of what feminism is about has to do with opening up arenas to people that were closed to them because of their gender. So women have entered traditionally-male dominated careers, and become engineers, doctors, lawyers, and welders. And men should be able to enter traditionally female-dominated fields, like kindergarten teaching and midwifery, without stigma. Not all men are like those cold, uncaring OBs some of you have experienced: it would probably be surprising to find out how good some men would be at being midwives or doulas. I am concerned by the female image evoked by the terms "midwife" and "doula", because it serves to intimidate men from trying to enter those fields, even though those men might be better at being a midwife than many of the female midwives out there. I think we owe it to all men to allow senstitive, compassionate men to operate in the fields that they excel in. Besides that, in the United States, at least, the Civil Rights Act bans discrimination based on gender in employment, and has been tremendousy helpful in efforts to integrate workplace racially and with respect to gender.

I think the fundamental divide between OBs and midwives has to do with the training and background of people in the two separate fields: OBs are problem solvers, and logical, rational thinkers. Meyers-Briggs NTs. I am one of those logical, rational, people, too, and let me tell you that their inherent strength is not compassion, it's efficiency and problem-solving. They can learn to develop a compassionate bed-side manner, but for most OBs, this is not their natural talent (obviously, this is an over-generalization which does not characterize all OBs). This has more to do with the training and selection of OBs, than it does with gender differences themselves. This is why many people on this board have noticed that female OBs act like male OBs: they're all problem solvers. And it's not necessarily because these female OBs have been trained by the "male" medical establishment -- it probably is because they're just naturally problem solvers that they gravitated to OB in the first place.

Midwives, on the other hand, value an entirely different set of skills. Midwives tend to be more caring and compassionate because those are traits that are considered desirable in a midwife. Of course, CNMs and other trained midwives also know a lot about science, too, which is why I think midwifery is a great thing. It's a nice overlap of skills.

It's not that I'm all for allowing strangers to poke around around in your vagina for no reason. Clearly, you should be able to choose who your caregivers are for whatever reason. But I just think this is a very complicated issue.

[fourlittlebirds]

I don't think anyone is arguing that men are incapable of being as or more compassionate and skilled than women. But if you are hiring someone specifically for the sort of deep understanding that comes from direct experience, and men (and some women for that matter) don't have that, then are you discriminating when you don't hire a man? Hardly.

I just cannot imagine applying the Civil Rights Act to something as personal as who you allow to touch your body. I don't owe that to *anyone*.

[hypatia]

I'm not trying to say that women have to be gender-neutral in picking a caregiver -- in fact, you can pick a caregiver for whatever reasons you want. I'm not trying to tell anybody to choose a caregiver that they aren't comfortable with, for whatever reason. What I am saying instead is that we can't have an outright ban against men from being midwives and doulas, as some people here would like to do, anymore than you can ban women from working in construction or as firefighters. And furthermore, I'm asserting that we should give men a chance in these roles, because the men who choose to be midwives, despite all the shit they get for making that decision, are probably very devoted excellent caregivers. But that's not to say you have to take advantage of the services they offer... you can always go someplace else.

[tara]

There is a wife/husband team of midwives at the clinic I chose for my birth. I was hesitant to take a chance that the man could be the one to deliver my baby until I met him - he is really, really wonderful. In fact, I wish he had been the one to deliver my baby instead of the woman who did (not his wife, another midwife in the practice). My sister had a male midwife she really loved, too.

That said, I would still probably choose a female midwife. I choose female dentists, female doctors, female painters, female plumbers! But, I think there are a few select, very special men who can cut it as midwives.

[Noey]

Tara were your midwives Felice & Morgan?

[tara]

Yup! You, too?

[Noey]

Yep! Felice was at my labor but decided 24 hrs into it that we needed to go to hospital...ugh! But we are healthy now! So was yours Morgan? It was a nice experience with them.

[tara]

Yes, Morgan was at my birth. We also transferred to the hospital after 24 hours, and I can second your ugh. I really liked Felice & Rick.

[heartmama]

As Amywillo said:

So I guess my thinking now is that in the mainstream hospital birthing world, there can be plenty of forward-thinking, gentle men and women, and just as many that are hideous. In the natural birth setting, however, where women are in touch with their own bodies and birth isn't a medicated procedure to be performed on a mother, I think it is more natural to have female attendants. I would think that men who believed in this model would naturally defer to women as the ones better suited to be midwives.

Such an excellent point! Very much my own feelings.

Hypatia, you said you never discrimate for a job based on gender. We can discriminate based on experience though, can't we? A man will never experience childbirth, menstruation, or lactation. He does not have the potential to understand these issues as deeply as woman who has been through them. The inexperience of men has been a real factor behind the violent nature of contemporary female health care. An individual cannot fully value an issue they cannot fully experience. It is that simple.

The comparison of midwives to firefighters is bogus. Midwifery is about birth, an issue facing women exclusively. Firefighting is about putting out fires...hardly gender specific unless men start shooting fire from their BVD's.

When women denounce the existence of any special knowledge made privy to them by experiencing those things given exclusively to them, insisting that any man can easily equal or surpass their understanding, they hurt only themselves. There has been no trade off...giving men the dominant voice in female health for the last century has pushed women off the very platform from which they stood the best chance of being respected and heard.

Think about it. On what issue *do* men consider women to be the ultimate authority? Pretty scary, isn't it?

Heartmama

[hypatia]

I think you can discriminate on the basis of experience only if you think it's essential for somebody to have experienced these things (pregnancy, menstruation, etc.) in order to be help people through them. And if that's the case, then you need to discriminate against childless women, women who've only had C-sections, etc. In fact, you should probably also discriminate against women who haven't had a C-section, too, because how do they know it's so bad if they haven't experienced it? There's such a variety of births that it's hard to say that someone knows what your birth feels like, just because they've given birth themselves. Clearly, it's helpful if your caregiver has experienced birth. But can I imagine an excellent caregiver who hasn't borne a child? Yes.

[heartmama]

Hypatia--as I already said, I think being female gives you an edge in your potential to fully understand/appreciate female health issues. I fail to see where anyone has explained why this *isn't* true. The experience of being female is what I am refering to as "experience", which includes but isn't limited to ovulation, birth, and lactation. I can imagine someone who isn't female being a competent birth attendant. That does not contradict my belief, that the potential for females to fully understand/appreciate female health issues is much stronger than a man's potential. Why is that controversial?

Heartmama

[KareninCT]

I keep opening this thread up and then not having time to respond. Let me see if I get through it this time. As I see it, there are three different issues being sited here. First, men shouldn't be birth attendants because they usually aren't as sensitive or compassionate as women. Second, men shouldn't be birth attendants because it is part of the female experience. Third, men shouldn't be birth attendants because they have never given birth. Those seem to pretty much be the major obstacles.

I have never had a male birth attendant or a male OB/GYN. I’ve never had any type of OB/GYN. I have my paps done by my general practitioner who is male. I started with a female, who I couldn’t stand, because I wanted a female dr. When she referred me to him for something, I asked to switch. I could go see a GYN for my paps, but why bother? My male dr is so much more sensitive and compassionate than my female ever was. I like my doctor and it doesn’t bother me that he is taking care of my entire body.

As for birth attendants, if I had to chose without meeting them – I’d chose a male mid (what are they? Midhusbands? Or male midwifes?) over a female OB. I think that it is definitely an individual thing. Now other than my midpersons over OBs rule as a general thing I do think birth should be reclaimed by women. But I think a lot of that is going to require women who believe in the power of other women and the naturalness of birth to become birth attendants. My births are not to advance an agenda; they are to bring forth the miracle of life. I would quickly go to a great guy instead of an OK woman. As many of you have pointed out, female OB/GYNs have as much of a medical background as the males.

As for understand the female experience and the sacredness of birth; I almost think you’d need to find a foreign midwife to do that. It really isn’t in our culture to have birth be a ritualistic celebration of life and the journey to motherhood. Not that there aren’t those here who believe in it; I just mean if you are looking for the Rediscovering Birth-experience that many of us crave, I’m not sure you can get it here.

As for giving birth, I’m torn. I’ve always thought I would have to have a woman for a birth attendant because the first time so male started telling me that what was happening didn’t hurt that bad or I could handle it or whatever, that I’d scream, “How to you know?!?!” But I just picked me midwife for this pregnancy. She is warm, sensitive and seems very open to letting me have the birth experience I want. And, she’s never had a child. Does that mean that even though she has participated in homebirths and supported women for 15 years that she won’t be a great birth attendant? I don’t think so. I’m quite honestly having more trouble with my choice for backup attendant. Do you pick the midwife who has had natural childbirth herself but seems cold? Or do you pick the midwife who had typical hospital deliveries and then discovered midwifery but seems compassionate? I’m still thinking on that one.

Basically I think women do have the advantage as birth attendants if they take advantage of it. But I would look at each individual to see if their vision of birth was compatible with mine.

[texannad]

I had my dh as my coach for labor and delivery and he was wonderful! If I'd had my mother there, I probably would've killed her. My nurse was just awful. She asked me questions during my contractions, and told me not to do grip the bed rails during contractions because my arms would be sore the next day. They weren't! (oh, the gripping helped as counterpressure!) My original ob/gyn was male, and great....was the only one in our area who believed in no interventions if possible (delivered a friends twins vaginally....most just want a c/section). One ob/gyn i went to before pregnancy who was female was gentle, but they didn't want my husband in the room with me. Wierd people.
All I know, is to do what feels right to you, give your opinion to people if asked, and let them decide what's right for them.

Texanna

[Irishmommy]

Since I was old enough to choose my own caregivers, I have always had female doctors, and if I can help it, always will. I just feel more comfortable with it (goes for therapists too).

My midwife for my first pregnancy had never been pregnant or had kids, and she was the most wonderful person I have ever met! Her not having given birth herself sure as heck didn't stop her from being great. We had the same midwife with dd2, and in the meantime she had had a child of her own, and it really didn't make a difference. She was just as wonderful and caring the second time around. To the point where I only want a third if she is still practising!

[Katambra]

I still stand by what I said before (whoever makes you comfy) but I have to say that I just read birth without violence and that book gives me the creeps big time!! It's not that I don't agree with lots of what he says, it's just in how he says it and how he thinks he knows exactly what is going through the minds of women and babies during birth. I don't know. It bugged me. I dont' think anyone should presume to know such a thing if they haven't been there, much less a man.
Kat

[Writermom]

My response to the question "Should men supervise birth?" is a big no, absolutely not, because I don't think anyone should be "supervising" birth. I think midwives should be supporting birth.

I have hired a male midwife for our home waterbirth--my 2nd baby is due in a couple of weeks. If you had told me at the beginning of this pregnancy that I would hire a male midwife, I would have said you are crazy, since I have a lot of similar emotions about the males I've encountered in obstetrics to most of the posting in this string. But this guy is the right person for the job. He basically sees his job as sitting quietly in the corner. I've learned from him that deep respect for the natural processes of birth can come in either gender. I should mention that I have hired a doula who has had two babies--it was still important to me to have a woman "who has been there" in the room with me and my husband.

My first baby, my beautiful son, is the product of an ugly hospital birth (I live and I learn...). The two most unsupportive, angry, tense, over-worked characters in that birth story were both women. I think American obstetrics/institutionalized birth saps the humanity out of all involved, male or female.

Midwives should be at births, not doctors. And the right midwife is probably going to be a woman. But maybe not. I don't like the idea of dismissing anyone's abilities based on her or his gender.

Thanks for reading, and yes, JenniferJeffrey, I did read "The Red Tent" and thoroughly enjoyed it. I was a little disturbed by her portrayal of not one, but two radical episiotomies. I'd like to know if those scenes were born out of actual practices that the author has researched, or her own uninformed view of birth...

It's almost my turn "to put my feet on the bricks."

[kama'aina mama]

Originally posted by KareninCT

As for understand the female experience and the sacredness of birth; I almost think you?d need to find a foreign midwife to do that. It really isn?t in our culture to have birth be a ritualistic celebration of life and the journey to motherhood. Not that there aren?t those here who believe in it; I just mean if you are looking for the Rediscovering Birth-experience that many of us crave, I?m not sure you can get it here.


I have to disagree. I got it. And I would have gotten more of it if I hadn't gone so quickly and had the rotten luck of birthing the same day as another client of my midwife. First time in about 8 years that happened to her.

[bluevervain]

I am finding myself really frustrated that many of the posts suggest that if you haven't had can't have or are unequipped to have a baby you shouldn't be attending (or will be a lesser attendant because of that.)

I've attended quite a few births now (around a hundred and fifty or so) and I have not had a baby yet (this will be remedied in December, at home, with a midwife, my hubby and several friends).

I DO know it hurts, I DO know that labor can be really hard. I may not have been in labor, but I have stayed awake all night, physically supporting women, in some cases having women squeeze my hands or hang on my shoulders or just break down. I DO know that at some point, many women feel like it is more than they can handle.

I also know, both by faith and experience, that women CAN birth naturally, that they can have the experience that they want and that despite the challenges of labor they will survive.

When I look into a woman's eyes when she is in the grip of a contraction and whether I talk her through it or just keep contact with her, I know that she will make it, even when she doesn't. I do say "I know it hurts" and I also have been known to say "that's the right way to do it", the privilege of sharing all those births has shown me, has taught me that those are true statements, even if I haven't had them happen to me.

with love,
Christina