I just figured out that dd has major caries in her four upper middle teeth :crap! Her upper incisors look similar to this photo (http://www.health.gov.sk.ca/adx/aspx/adxGetMedia.aspx?DocID=847,802,95,88,Documents&MediaID=579&Filename=ectd1st.jpg), only the decayed areas are not as discoloured. But you can see and feel with a fingernail that the enamel is gone, and there is a depression along the gumline. Her upper canines are only white and chalky looking along the gumline so far. I had no idea before today because she hasn't been letting me look at her teeth :guilty. I can't believe that I didn't realize how bad her teeth were sooner :bang

Risk factors:
we haven't been forcing dd to have her teeth brushed, just doing a daily brushing routine where she plays with her electric toothbrush :guilty
dd got her teeth quite early, starting from 4 mo
breastfeeds frequently day and night :eyesroll
only drinks water, not juice
sugary treats are rare, but starchy, snacky foods and dried fruits are pretty common :o. My kids get to be so picky at this age and getting them fed is a bit of a struggle. Recently dd completely stopped eating any solids for days when she was sick :(.
my teeth aren't too bad, but dh's teeth are worse than mine and I'm afraid that we have often offered her food from our fork/spoon :(
edited to add: I am coming to the conclusion that my nutritional status during my first tri with dd is the cause of her susceptibility. I was still nursing, I was losing weight due to pregnancy nausea, not taking any prenatal vitamins (also due to pregnancy nausea), and I got bacterial dysentery while travelling in Mexico. I think those combined to make dd's tooth enamel weaker. That's the only explanation I have for why ds has perfect teeth and dd has major issues.


Here's my plan:

see a dentist (Dr Miriam Liam (http://www.vedderdental.ca/)) very soon
brush twice per day - this will unfortunately involve major forcing, I did it tonight and it was awful :(. I tried to make it into a game but it didn't work. My kids get so strong-willed at this age.
toothpaste: which would be better - Druide Organic Toothpaste (contains glycerin) or professional remineralizing toothpaste (that I would get from the dentist) or plain granulated xylitol?
take cod liver oil daily - how many IU of vitamin D per day do you recommend in this situation?
take Butter Oil (http://www.htnetwork.org/catalog/item/1572085/3782323.htm) daily
offer xylitol candies (http://www.aviva.ca/shop/products.asp?itemid=3924&catid=145) daily
try to cut back on starchy foods (rice crackers, etc.) and dried fruit. I'm aware of the health benefits of bone broths, but dd would not drink them.

Comments on my plan?

Do you think that these caries are likely to be painful for dd?

What's the best case scenario here? What's the worst case scenario?

Ksenia, I don't have much assistance for most of the above, but I've found a good way to check dd's teeth. She loves flipping upside down. So I flip her upside down on my lap, maybe tickle her a little, and check behind those teeth.

She also really, really likes anise toothpaste and fruit flavours and asks to brush with those, while she can't stand mint. So perhaps try different flavours?

Sandra from LLL said that nursing at night is fine, but that brushing after starch is important because otherwise the starch invites those decay bugs in and they love it when the milk goes on top of them.

Ksenia, I think you have caught things at an early enough stage to heal them naturally. When Fio had her cavities we followed a similar plan to you. The toothpaste we bought from Miriam Liem was called MI Paste: http://www.gcamerica.com/mipaste.html and it healed one of her cavities for us. Good luck!

:Thanks Skymoma, but I'm not sure that I explained how bad it is in my original post - I just edited it to add:her upper canines just have a white, chalky appearance along the gumline, but the enamel seems to be gone along the gumline of her four upper incisors - you can feel it with your fingernail, and see that it is eroded.I am so upset about this :bawl

:hug

we have tried sooooo many things to get ds's teeth healed and stop that darn decay. The MI paste that SkyMoma posted is what has turned all this decay around :D I also think the Vit D supplements have helped. We will still need to have dental surgery for ds, as 2 of his teeth have broke in half :( but this paste has made them sooooo strong and white, its unbelievable that more people don't know about this stuff.
We paid $20 when we got it at Dr. Glen Joyce's office in West Van.

I think its important to at least get one good brushing a day. Two if possible, but as long as you get one good one at night, then put on the MI Paste (and we let it marinate during storytime. Then continue nighttime routine as normal, breastfeeding etc.

With teethbrushing, we lay on the floor or bed and lay ds down between our legs, with his head in our crotch area. His arms go under our legs (sounds horrid, I know) Then we play a game of trying to tickle his feet. It really helps if there's two of you, so one can play the game and one can floss and brush properly.

I envy that you know about MI Paste at this early stage, because if we had, this would have gotten better and their would be no need for surgery.

dawncayden, I know it has been really tough for you guys :hug. :Thanks for the tips. We will definitely use the paste, but I don't see how the paste can help in areas where the enamel has already decayed? I thought it would only help in places where the enamel was just discoloured :scratch. I just changed the link in my original post to show a better picture of what the decay looks like. I'm not optimistic about natural cures for this :(.

:hug oh Ksenia!

I just posted an essay on this thread (http://www.mothering.com/discussions/showthread.php?p=10457176#post10457176) that might interest you. HTH

It's designed to help rebuild the enamel, to a certain point. I thought we were to a point in decay, where we were past the point of no return, but his teeth show much less brown and seem twice, three times as strong.

We have tried:
homeopathics
changing our diet
flouride toothpaste
flouride treatments
excessive brushing 3+ times a day
Vit D
MI Paste
flossing with every brushing


What I have felt has helped:
I have limited dried fruit to when I know we will brush soon after
Vit D
MI Paste
At least one good brushing a day, and one moderatly good brushing
flossing at least once a day

Does anyone know where to buy the MI paste other than at those two dentists' offices? Can it be found at a health food store, or Canadian online retailer?

Thanks,
Nicki

No not in stores. You have to buy it from a dentist.

((ksenia))) i think i was upset for *years* about my first's teeth. its hard.

what *is* the mineral paste? i used gerolsteiner mineral water, it has a good balance, did i say this already :shy when mine was little i would let it get less fizzy first. i think rice cakes did her teeth in...probably also raisins, and she wouldn't brush, then would put a soother in :eyesroll

however, she did actually remineralise her teeth, a dentist she saw at age 4 was astonished to see it. i've kept the teeth, if you'd like to see :p...there's a bit of a hole, but the brown disappeared and it has visibly filled in.

melli, great to read what you did. it is very similar to us. i do wonder how much food sensitivities played into all of this.

how much vit d do you give? i'm considering giving it to my family, as they are vegetarian so clo doesn't go over. i have drops.

my naturopath does a simple test using blood pressure strap to see if you are mineral deficient ..puts it around your leg and pumps it to see how fast you shout :wink my partner can sit there all day, but i scream after a second :( so i have been supplementing.

i'd really like to increase our cultured foods to help them take in the nutrients in the first place. my second child has crooked teeth on the bottom, and i worry, worry.

i painted my first's teeth with black walnut extract as well. i just remembered the butter oil, which i used with her, plus lots of super blue-green algae - which i've since heard lousy things about, so i don't know...i put some stevia in the butter oil, and put it on top of our oatmeal. it smells like parmesan to me, i might just start putting it on pasta :lol

the other major thing i've been trying to do is just reducing flour. my health is SO much better without it, and it certainly sticks in the body in all kinds of places! that said, a bit of bread and crackers are fine. i used to be vigilant about following sticky things with crunchy things.

:blah

*

:Hug

I just wanted to add my .02 about getting ds to brush. Not that it's easy, but he likes my songs. So, I'll share....sing these songs EVERY time (or other songs of your choosing) and maybe your dd will start to not mind the brushing so much.

1. To Row, Row, Row Your Boat

Brush, brush, brush your teeth
Brush them everyday
That's the way, That's the way, we keep the cavities away

2. My own tune, sing however you like! :o

Back and forth, back and forth
Up and down, up and down,
round and round, round and round
That's how we brush our teeth

(then ds says, "yeah, yeah!")

I do three rounds. usually 1 round of #1, and 2 of #2. I figure that way I'm probably getting enough time brushing, ds likes the "yeah, yeahs" (he added that, too!) and I ONLY sing while brushing. So if he pulls away, I stop singing.

He's started singing while he brushes his own teeth, so that's a good sign!

Good luck, mama!

:Thanks for sharing what has been working for you mamas! Dd used to like us brushing her teeth - I wonder if it hurts too much now :(.

Diet. I'm in awe of what you guys have done dietary-wise artparent and mellifluousmama. I cannot begin to describe how discouraging it is for me to contemplate this issue. We were trying to shift towards a NT diet. Then we found out that dh needs to be on a low sodium vegan low protein alkalinizing diet with no soy or wheat or veggies from the nightshade family - he has seriously not funny health worries that we need to take care of. IME, there is very little overlap between NT and dh's diet, except veggies and bone stocks :gloomy. All the fermented veggies use whey and salt, both of which dh is avoiding. I feel like I have been putting so much effort into dh's diet lately, but I guess in the meanwhile dd has been eating too much dried fruit and health-foody but starchy crunchy snacks (rice crackers, "heritage "o"s, etc.). My kids are soooo picky that just getting them to eat anything can be a real challenge, let alone deciding what they will eat.

Thanks for the link on the other thread to the place to buy MI online.
http://www.dentist.net/prospec-mipaste-recaldent.asp

Dawn, do you use the one with the flouride or without? I'm also wondering whether you've done any sampling with the flavours?

I'm ALWAYS in awe of what you do diet-wise Ksenia -- you're amazing to be juggling so many variables!

Nicki

No ours has no flouride. We have the 'tutti fruiti' flavour, which the dentist said is the most popular.

We were doing flouride, tons of it :eyesroll and now we've 99% cut back on flouride and ds's teeth look soooo much better (along with using the MI paste)

Thanks for the link on the other thread to the place to buy MI online.
http://www.dentist.net/prospec-mipaste-recaldent.asp

Dawn, do you use the one with the flouride or without? I'm also wondering whether you've done any sampling with the flavours?

I'm ALWAYS in awe of what you do diet-wise Ksenia -- you're amazing to be juggling so many variables!

Nicki

Hey Nicki! If you end up ordering, can you order us a couple of tubes of the tutti frutti one?!!! THanks for the link to the Park Royal location - but we don't own a car and find it hard to get certain places. So, mailing seems so much easier to me!!!!!

I've just stuck my head in the sands re: Tiegan's cavities (seems to be my solution to everything!) but now I'm going to get very proactive.....we were literally driving to her appointment at Vedder Clinic when she started throwing up. Blah. But early March we are definitely going!!!!!!! It it's any solace, Kea's teeth are great, and Tiegan's are horrible - so I know it's not all about what the parents do! Much of it is genetic, including the shape of the teeth, etc.

so do you use the mineralizing paste like regular toothpaste? or put it on after brushing?

If it's any consolation to you all, Lucy had really weak enamel on her baby teeth, but her adult teeth are gorgeous!! I'm envious! :wink I often say to her "show me your teeth" and she does, and I thank her for making me feel like a good mom. :)

oh gosh, now I'm worrying about teeth too.

Zicki, I'll try a tube or two as well. Just let me know how much it'll be

It it's any solace, Kea's teeth are great, and Tiegan's are horrible - so I know it's not all about what the parents do! Much of it is genetic, including the shape of the teeth, etc.The WAP (http://www.westonaprice.org/) perspective is that it's common for the first child to be OK, and the second child to have worse teeth, due to the mother's body being more nutrient-depleted during pregnancy and lactation :guilty.

I'm aiming to go pick up the tubes from West Van, so I can certainly pick up more for you Erica and mimi! .. assuming that Dr. Joyce's office will sell it to me without having had an appt with her. Dawn mentioned in the other thread that it's $20 no tax.. how many did you want, mimi, and which flavours? No-flouride ones?

Tiffani, the dentist-net site says not to brush with it, but to apply it after brushing and leave it on for 3-5 mins then spit it out, but don't rinse with water.

Both M's and C's 2 top incisors2 came in with brown spots on them.. and C's permanent bottom molars came in with soft enamel (my own came in with no enamel, and have had gold crowns on them since I was 12 or so.. one fell out for the first time a couple of months ago (about 25 years later!!) but I didn't lose it and it was just stuck back on for $50 instead of having to be replaced for $1K, thankgoo'ness!!).

C's just had her two molars filled last week (no freezing required) at Pediatric Dental Group at Oakridge at a cost of $460 !!!! :dropjaw I was so :bang for not asking how much it was going to cost before I had it done.. sigh. So I need to switch dentists for a cheaper cost alone! And I just don't trust that they're not doing more than is necessary there.

Nicki

It sounds like you have a good routine. We've been:

-brushing after every meal, snack, and nursing (so she no longer nurses to sleep)
-flossing before bed
-using tooth wipes while out
-xylitol gum
-fluoride toothpaste before bed (I wipe it off with a washcloth after brushing it on, only the top incisors which are the teeth with cavities)
-concentrace minerals and sodium ascorbate in her water*
-calcium carbonate and sodium ascorbate added to her toothbrush*
-vitamin d3 tabs (1000IU 1-2x a day... It's on the high end, but she had a blood test and was found to be deficient, so we're trying to get her back up)
-multivitamin and kid cal (has calcium, magnesium, vitamin D, and beta carotene)
-I just read something about ground sea salt on the infected teeth, so I'm trying that
-I read that zinc and magnesium are really good for helping cavities, so I bought an ionic zinc supplement and the concentrace has a lot of magnesium
-no more cereal and we're trying to limit refined grains
-green smoothies every morning

*I really don't know if there is any science to back these up, it just made sense to me and I'm getting desperate

So we went to the dentist for kids' first visit today. It was definitely worth driving over an hour to the Vedder Dental Clinic (http://vedderdental.ca/) in Chilliwack, BC (Dr. Miriam Liem). They have a philosophy in the clinic of taking lots of time to talk to and play with the kids before doing any looking in the mouth or procedures. They don't push the child's comfort zone at all, preferring to gradually build trust over time. They don't use the papoose board in their office. They did things like showing them the chair, blowing up the balloons, giving little presents, picking toothbrushes, letting ds pick which tooth to get cleaned first, etc. :thumb

Dr. Liem confirmed my fears about dd's teeth - she has decay into the dentin along the gumline of her four upper teeth, and demineralization of the enamel along the gumline of her upper canines. She said that her teeth look clean and that her dental arches looked good.

Her recommendation was to bring dd in at her nap time and have her sedated with chloral hydrate, with the expectation that she would fall asleep for at least an hour. She said that that usually works when children are under two years old. I'm a little sceptical about that working with dd because she is hard to get to sleep and rarely naps for more than half an hour. Then she would fill all six teeth with white enamel composite and look for any other decay issues in the mouth. When I asked her about how long the fillings would last, she said that I should expect them to last 1-2 years. I asked her about whether dd would be a good candidate for HealOzone, she said that she didn't know whether it was available locally, but that she had heard really good things about it. When I informed her that there was a dentist in Delta, BC who does HealOzone with children (http://www.naturesdesigndentalspa.com/), she recommended that we consult with him. She felt that it had the potential to stop the decay from spreading, which is the most important thing. When I brought up using MI paste, she recommended it (non-fluoride version) and sold it to us for $20/per tube. She suggested using it like toothpaste. She recommended the vanilla flavour and says it tastes like vanilla yoghurt. She also said that dd probably had an enamel problem and that there probably wasn't anything that I could have done to prevent it. :shrug:

Afterwards, ds had his turn. Thank goodness he passed with flying colours! :) Great dental arches, good spacing, clean teeth, no decay. What a relief. And what an illustration of the mystery of early childhood caries: at dd's age, we couldn't brush ds' teeth at all, and he ate more carby snacks (e.g. rice crackers, Cheddar Bunnies) than dd does because he was an even pickier eater.

hooray for wolfie!!

hopefully that will work out for Uma! :fingersx: we've done chloral hydrate with dex a few times now, and it has worked wonders, though he didn't fall asleep, just got more compliant. I need some for home use!! :)

When I brought up using MI paste, she recommended it (non-fluoride version) and sold it to us for $20/per tube.

Aw, man, I wish I'd had you pick up enough for the group of us.. I want a couple of tubes and so does beaner&tiegs and mimi! and megansar. I called Dr. Joyce's office this morning but the (lovely) receptionist is trying to find out whether she can sell it to non-patients.

Glad you had such a positive experience!!

Nick

Aw, man, I wish I'd had you pick up enough for the group of us.. I want a couple of tubes and so does beaner&tiegs and mimi! and megansar. I called Dr. Joyce's office this morning but the (lovely) receptionist is trying to find out whether she can sell it to non-patients.Sorry, I thought you guys already had a plan for buying it - it didn't occur to me :innocent

No worries, I know you've had alot on your mind!!

Nicki

Aw, man, I wish I'd had you pick up enough for the group of us.. I want a couple of tubes and so does beaner&tiegs and mimi! and megansar. I called Dr. Joyce's office this morning but the (lovely) receptionist is trying to find out whether she can sell it to non-patients.

Glad you had such a positive experience!!

Nick

I just talked to them and they said it was fine if you want to buy it. :D

Thanks Dawn.. the receptionist left me a message on Wed, saying that if I wanted to get a number of tubes (I told her it was 4 mamas, including me), that I'd need to get a case of assorted flavours.. so I tried calling back and finding out which flavours it would be, but I didn't hear back on Thurs, so today I popped over there, and darn, I hadn't realized they were closed on Fridays! So I'll have to sort it out on Monday.

Thanks!
Nicki

Her upper incisors look similar to this photo (http://www.health.gov.sk.ca/adx/aspx/adxGetMedia.aspx?DocID=847,802,95,88,Documents&MediaID=579&Filename=ectd1st.jpg), only the decayed areas are not as discoloured.
That's just what ds's two front teeth looked like.

I use xylitol toothpaste (spry infant tooth gel). Most everything I've read says that it's safe, and even mainstream dental sites say that it's effective against cavities. I've even read that it can help with tartar buildup.
I was reading in one food additive book that said it wasn't safe, though (that book said everything was unsafe, just about, so...)
We brush twice a day with it.

The second dentist we took him to said that the cavities were a result of trauma or the enamel not developing properly. He said that it wasn't related to sugar (or bf'ing).

I had his cavities filled with ART (atraumatic restorative treatment- something like that) by Dr. Patton in Vancouver. No drilling, they just scrape out the decayed stuff. Then fill it with a putty like stuff that contains flouride. It's not permanent, but it kills the decay. There was a post on here by someone who had it done to her dd. She noticed it had fallen out, but that the decay under it had hardened, and wasn't getting any worse.

One of them fell out, he replaced it for free, and it was super easy for ds. There was no scraping, it was just putting the putty in and setting it.

So far, it's holding on. We just keep brushing twice a day with the Spry, and trying to limit juice to meals (we suck at that though).

Becky, was Keagan sedated for that? How old was he when it happened?

I had his cavities filled with ART (atraumatic restorative treatment- something like that) by Dr. Patton in Vancouver. No drilling, they just scrape out the decayed stuff. Then fill it with a putty like stuff that contains flouride. It's not permanent, but it kills the decay. There was a post on here by someone who had it done to her dd. She noticed it had fallen out, but that the decay under it had hardened, and wasn't getting any worse.:Thanks so much for your update!!! I was looking for someone who did ART in Vancouver and I am so glad to know about that :thumb. If we go the route of getting fillings, that's what I want.