Bradley instructors

[kama'aina mama]

Hi! I just finished my 4 day workshop and am looking down the barrel of a lot of books. What is up with the certified instructors here? Anyone want to chat here and sort of mentor me a bit? I keep swinging from confidence to feeling utterly overwhelmed. How is it going in your area? Do your students do well, or get undermined at the hospital. Talk it up!

[UnschoolingAmerica]

I can't believe that you posted this in November and I am just seeing it now in March! Sorry!
I am a new instructor myself. I just completed my certification this past summer, but I had my 2nd child in October, so I just started advertising for classes. I have had one inquiry, and I am very anxiously awaiting that first phone call to take a class. I advertise everywhere that is humanly possible, but the two OB's in my area despise Bradley teachers, so it is really going to be an uphill battle for me to teach in my area.
I am so ready and anxious to teach! I will let you know how it goes once I get my first couple!
How are your studies going? Please email anytime and we can compare notes.
What did you think of Marjie and Jay? I really loved the workshop.
Talk soon, Dayna

[UnschoolingAmerica]

Ok, So you didn't post this in November. I was looking at your "date registered" on your profile. So, you posted a couple days ago, even better. :o

[kama'aina mama]

No worrys! There is a thread in TAO also that I am going to try to re-route over here. There seem to be a handful of us all in various stages of training, which could be cool. It's sort of a solitary persuit so maybe we can keep each other company. Heck, I was even alone at workshop! Are there other Bradley instructors in your area? How do they do? Have you talked to any church groups or mosques? For some reason I have it in my head that would be a good way to find students, but who knows. Baby waking, gotta run.

[imagine]

Hello again!
kama'aina mama, I think you asked me how I was going about getting students for my provisional class? There is one other Bradley instructor here (in San Francisco), and I took my classes from her (back in 2000). She has offered to send one of her couples over to me (with their agreement, of course). So, I am fortunate in that I don't have to go looking for someone to teach my first class to. This should happen sometime in May. I am turning in my academic packet in 2 weeks, so I have been busy, busy, busy!

Now it is time to start getting some teaching aids and videos. I saw one recently that I really liked.....Suzanne Arms' Birthing the Future . Have you seen that one?

Got to get back to work. Let's keep this thread going!

Celine

[UnschoolingAmerica]

Does anyone else think that the videos that AAHCC offers need to be updated? I purchased, "Childbirth for the Joy of it Part 1" and it is SO old that I am embarrased to show it to my students. I guess I can say it is a classic, but I just don't want to leave the impression that we are not up to date, and cutting edge on our information. Know what I mean? Almost all of the videos are like that that I bought from them. Kind of a bummer. "Birth of a Family" is really good and modern. I will enjoy showing that video. I just feel as though I wasted my money on the others.
What do you other Bradley teachers feel about this?
Dayna

[kama'aina mama]

I saw a bunch of the videos at my workshop and yeah, I can see your point. Have you asked them about it? I think part of the problem is that it costs a lot to make a new video and if it is essentially just a repeat of one they already made but with different hairstyles many older instructors either won't but it or will be annoyed at feeling pressured to pay again for something they basically already have, you know? They might be working on new ones.. I dunno. The one nice thing about the one video you mention is that it is pretty much non-vaginal, so it is nice to show at a first class.

Phone... more later.

[imagine]

I completely agree about the videos. I think all of them are either dated looking or simply not very professional. It is too bad. The good thing about them is that they show couples giving birth who actually went through Bradley classes. For that reason, I will show at least one of them in my classes. But, I am starting my collection now of other videos that I like better. The only one I know that I will definitely be using is Suzanne Arms' Giving Birth: Challenges and Choices. Any other suggestions out there for good videos???

Celine:Peace

[crowbaby]

Wow I love this. I tried to get in touch with some Bradley Instructors but they did not e-mail me back. I guess they were a little busy. Anyway my own Bradley instructor is fabu and is also sending me some clients when I get my first class together. I have talked with some midwives around here who are very nice and will be happy to send me clients when I am up and running. It is nice because the other instructor is in the southwest here and I am in the northeast, so we can share from the client pool no problemo.

I go to the training in May. My hubby will also be at a training session for the army, (he got called up. :( ) So my little baby girl will be with her aunt and uncle in the same state, but not at the training :( She'll be 18 months, just around seperation anxiety's peak. :( Thankfully dh will be with us by that Friday night. It is such a loong training day. I hope she will be okay.

Which books did you like the best? I haven't seen a lot of videos yet, but I will give you my opinion when I do. I would like to see Birthing the Future . It sounds great! I don't mid older stuff. My fav book right now is Spirtual Midwifery. Groovy man! :)

My biggest competition around here is those darn "Prepared Childbirth" classes at the beomoth Women's Hospital in town. I am going to tour it next Tuesday for the assignment, but I already know too much about them to have any hope of finding any open minded staff. I talked to the midwives who work out of the hospital and even they have a 65% epidural rate! They sounded like the hospital wants them to be the Dr's b***hes, rather then a full blown practice of their own. Very sad.

Keep this going I want to hear about all about you ladies!

Happy classes :love

Karen :)

[UnschoolingAmerica]

Karen, Welcome to our thread!
Could you maybe have your little girl come with you to the workshop? Could the family member who is going to watch her come with you to help out? It will be very hard for her without you I am sure, and hard for you to really relax and focus on the workshop worried about her. Just an idea.

My workshop in NY last summer was loaded with kids and family members bringing them in and out of the workshop all day. Jay & Marjie and very child friendly and encourage people to bring their children to the training.

Talk soon, Dayna

[UnschoolingAmerica]

I just wanted to add about the videos, that I personally really like the Bradley videos. My problem is that I have read on the Net about people who have taken the course and feel that Bradley teaching is outdated. They use the videos as an example.

To us, the videos are great, because they reinforce our passions and beliefs. It is my students that I am worried about critiquing and criticizing them, and they word of mouth to other potential students.
Just wanted to elaborate a bit more..... :D

Dayna

[UnschoolingAmerica]

Does anyone have 2 VCR's? We coule dub each others videos. I'd be down for that.
All my videos are Bradley:

"Childbirth for the Joy of it part 1"
"Gestation, the first days of life"
"Birth of a Family"
"Fetal Effects of Ultrasound"

[kama'aina mama]

Ooohh... where are they discussing Bradley? I'd love to have a look. I can certainly see the issue with the videos, but I think my instructor had a good attitude about it. She sort of laughed and said, yeah, they are old, but ya know... birth hasn't changed and let's try to focus on what's important.

I haven't read most of the books yet and all the videos are still a blur in my mind from seeing them so close together but I will try to refresh my memory and answer later.

[UnschoolingAmerica]

The books I really liked were, of course "The Womanly Art....", because I am a LLL leader also. :)

Also, "The Thinking Womans Guide to a Better Birth", "The Birth Book" was good. "Safe Alternatives in Childbirth" convinced me to have a homebirth with my 2nd child, Dakota. (I was pregnant while I did my Bradley training.) Although, the book was torture to read. So dry and boring.
I got so much out of all of the books. I really loved them all for different reasons. It really is a well rounded study program.

Talk soon.........
Dayna

[Clarity]

My sister is taking a bradley class with a new instructor and another couple and knows very little about birthing methods. (first pregnancy). She felt the videos were very dated, and very inappropriate for her, I've only been getting sketchy details, but particularly a video on ultrasound with facts from the mid-80's seemed dated and scaremongering. The other couple was trying to research it themselves online because the video seemed out of date medically. I'm all for fact and don't feel U/s is perfectly safe, but my sister is planning a freestanding birth center birth if things go well, however she has had a complicated pregnancy so u/s was appropriate in her case for medical reasons. (blood clotting issue causing placental problems and screening for a extremely serious family genetic problem that would need alternate treatment). If her placental problems increase, she'll be with a dr who will want EFM due the the placental issues. It just makes her feel inadequate. I know this is probably impossible within the Bradley structure, but with such a small class, it would be nice if her particular circumstances could be acknowledged more.... She used the word "indoctrinated" to describe the style of the class (coming from someone who WANTS a natural out of hospital birth.)

I'm asking her to continue because I feel that it will have something to offer, and give her a greater chance of success at the birth she wants. I was on bedrest or in the hospital for pregnancy complication so I never had the chance to take it. I feel like I should have tried harder to find a Birthing from within class for her...I read the Bradley books but had no idea what I was sending her into. I think maybe she is not a good bradley method student?
She also found the Bradley book kind of sexist and dated, plus the "husband-coached" emphasis caused her a lot of anxiety regarding her DH...I think I'll end up coaching her. I handed her the other one Natural Childbirth the Bradley Way? She liked it better. She has had some negative comments about the workbook...I'll get it from her and read it.

C

[kama'aina mama]

I can see some of what your sister means right of the bat Clarity. Dr Bradley's writings are somewhat paternalistic. I find the information useful enough that I just ignore the stuff that bothers me and get to the core of the program, which I feel is really valuable. I also suspect that a new teacher (like many of us are) is likely to be a wee bit gung ho and lack some of the subtlety and finesse that more experienced instructors have.

I sympathize with her stresses about the anti U/S info coming at her when she is having useful and reasonable U/S. Part of the thing is, there is a great deal of emphasis in the instructor training on the fact that we must not practice medicine. The practice of medicine has a been given a really broad definition in legal terms, so instructors have to be really careful. I mean, if you were to stop by my house for a visit and I said "Hey, is your shoulder still bothering you from that fall? Would you like an aspirin or a cup of willow bark tea?" I would be guilty of practicing medicine without a license. So, her instructor has to be really careful making any comments that relate directly to any individuals situation.

As to the husband coached aspect, that is a really important thing to Bradley. You don't say why she is concerned about her husband. All I can do is share my experience, which was that my husband did an awesome job after being sort of nervous about it and since then I have just felt so much closer to him, so much more able to really trust him. It can really be a very marriage affirming occasion.

[Clarity]

I think he'll do better than she thinks, but the "decision making" aspect assigned to her DH is troubling her...she sees him better as a supprtive, reassuring presence, not as her advocate, which she is relying on her mother and I for...I'll think he'll shine through in both roles. ;) I think Bradley is good at getting the spouses on the "team", since so many decisions in childbirth are made from the husband's fear or worry or doubt...or his susceptibility to medical pressure.


I think you're right, the gung-ho instructor was giving the "all U/S bad all the time" message, when what she needed was a little risk vs benefit speech, since medical advice she has plenty of. Maybe one was given and my sister couldn't hear it over the videotape's impact on her. I've never seen it so I don't know how it's couched... My sister has trouble with large groups so I thought this "starter class" was a good idea. Oh, well!

[UnschoolingAmerica]

Bradley teaches the risks of ultrasound, just as we teach the risks of drugs etc. It isn't that we are totally anti-ultrasound, but we feel as though it is important to educate that there ARE risks to the unborn baby with routine procedures that most doctors say are perfectly safe.
Some teachers are more militant against the use of these routine procedures than others. I personally do not plan on putting a huge emphasis on the risks of ultrasound as some teachers do. I am sorry your sis feels this way about her Bradley class. I wish she was my student!


Dayna

[UnschoolingAmerica]

You guys must have all sent me good vibes because I had my first student sign up today! I will start the class in May! I am SO thrilled! It will be my first class that i will be teaching alone. (I taught with another teacher for experience prior to starting classes in my area)
She sound like a dream student too! So confident and positive and informed.
I am just beside myself with excitement and enthusiasm!

I want to buy a couple more videos before I start in May. I also would love a model pelvis, but they are pretty expensive.

Talk soon!

[imagine]

Congratulations on getting your first student! I hope to be in the same place sometime in May also. I am sure it will be a great experience.

:thumb Celine

[UnschoolingAmerica]

I have decided not to show "Childbirth For the Joy of It, Part 1" in class, so if anyone wants to buy it please let me know! I payed 39.99 for it through AAHCC, and I will sell it for half price, 19.99. It is brand new and never been viewed.

Thanks! Dayna

[kama'aina mama]

I might take you up on that Dayna... I have to check the budget though. Don't turn down a solid offer on my account.

[Clarity]

Kama'aina mama asked me how my sister's Bradley class was going so I thought I'd update you. She is continuing but has added a hypnobrithing class taught by a midwife I know which she and her partner like a little better (teacher personality seems to be a better fit.)

Apparantly, Dr. Bradley, were he still around, would not be invited to a tea party at our house! My sister says " I don't like Dr. Bradley. He's an old guy with old ideas. Like calling things by made up names: baby box, baby door. Maybe that was good in the 50's when people didn't know the names of things. [but I think it's insulting] ." She specifically was repulsed by his discussion of frequency of episiotomy in his practice (I explained the context) and in the workbook, this week there was something in there saying breast pumps are never necessary and are dangerous???!!!! She must be exaggerating, right? That can't be in there?

I can't wait until her class is over and I can read the materials. I think what we discussed before, about the core of bradley being so helpful is true. I just think maybe the minor details (unupdated stuff in the workbooks, videos) are more of a turnoff than one might suspect, and may keep it more on the "fringe". My sister asked if it was really ever updated or just a new cover put on the same material? I mean this is such a big suprise for me, i always thought positive things about bradley. Her husband, while military, is shy...and the coach/sports analogies are not working well for him. I think he means if he's not Mr. Go Team Go! he thinks he'll be failing my sis.

I'm glad they're sticking it out though...in the end I think this will be of great value to them.

[Lilacmoon]

This is kinda off the current subject and applies more to the first posts in this thread....but when I was investigating taking this path and spoke with a CBE at our local health department ,she said that there were several MD's, and local organizations that had called her recently asking for CBE's to teach at their offices/churches/centers...etc. Maybe this could be the case in your area and it would be a good connection/way to meet new clients. Good Luck to you all:thumb I have a longer path ahead....take my doula training in the fall. Still psyched and very very happy to be here.

:hippie :love
Mukta Raga

[imagine]

Clarity,

Just took a look at my workbook.....there is nothing in there regarding breast pumps being dangerous and never necessary. Not sure where she saw that info but it isn't in the Bradley workbook.

As for Dr. Bradley's book, to be honest, I would never recommend that book to my students. It does read as dated in terms of Bradley himself being a man of a "different time." I know that some people might find him to sound sexist, insulting and/or "politically incorrect." His book is not a required or necessary part of Bradley childbirth classes. Though, it does have some interesting historical info. The Bradley Method does not advocate having episiotomies and in that respect differs from Dr. Bradley's writings.

Just some thoughts!

Celine
provisional Bradley Method instructor

Ps. I agree that the workbook "looks" very outdated, but I believe the information in it to be very up to date.

[kama'aina mama]

Thanks for posting that Clarity. I think it is helpful for u sto hear things that our students might not say to our faces! I can't remember where... maybe in a foreword or afterword somewhere I know I read that Dr Bradley really regrets his epi rate. He says if he had been better educated it would have been much lower. His was still much lower than most of his collegues at the time though... and hell, a 3% C rate? I can't argue with that.

[Clarity]

Yeah, that's what I told my sis, 40% is not bad, really, when everyone else is 100%!!!! I will steal sis's stuff and read it. She says it's in the questions asked about your side reading. This is in the breastfeeding section (after going to a LLL meeting/reading the Womanly Art?) She said she thought the workbook people must have thought it was important if they asked that question about the reading? I MUST read this stuff! My obsession is sort of topic related since after I finally get to have a normal birth, I thought I'd like to become a brith instructor...and from my experience with lamaze-style vs readings on Bradley, I thought Bradley was were I was headed! Which is why our Bradley saga is such a big deal!

[imagine]

Just an update....I finally found what your sister must have been talking about regarding breast pumps. It is on page 18 of the workbook (Breastfeeding Questionnaire). It says: "Why are breast pumps rarely necessary?" and "How are some of them dangerous?"

I have no problem with either of those two questions. I do think that breast pumps are not necessary for lots of moms (if they are taught how to manually express and are not storing milk), and I know that some of them are considered "dangerous" (by lactation consultants, nurses, etc). This topic has been discussed many times on LACTNET discussion list. Poor design that injures breast tissue is one example.

Thanks for bringing it up. It makes me realize how information can be misunderstood if we are not clear enough when teaching. One cannot just assume everyhing has been made clear. Hopefully your sister brought it up in class and asked for a clarification.

But, everyone's teaching style is different and all of us come to this with our own personal beliefs/bias/experiences/education. We can try our best to be objective, but the truth is that some of that other stuff is going to seep through. That is why it is best to try and make sure that you "connect" on some level with your teacher/caregiver so that the effect of that "seeping through" is not a negative one.

Peace,
Celine :)

[kama'aina mama]

Hey Clarity... did your sis have that babe yet? What are her final thoughts on Bradley? Inquiring minds want to know. And we actually care, too.

[UnschoolingAmerica]

I just had to post to tell me fellow teachers and teachers-in-training, that being a Bradley teacher has been the most rewarding experience of my life!
Since this thread started, I went from just beginning to advertise for classes, to now teaching twice a week! I have four couples in one class and two in the other. I am even attending one of my students births in September as a doula. I also have 3 couples signed up so far for the next series I am starting July 31st!
I am telling you all this to let you know that it does happen! I was so worried that I would never get anyone! I advertised for a couple months before that first call. Now word is getting around, and I have actually made a name for myself! It is all so worth it. I love my students and they all are really enjoying class!
I just wanted to share. Keep up all the hard work, because it does pay off! We are making a difference!!

Take care, Love Dayna

[Clarity]

I am so glad to hear some of your practices are developing! I was providing childcare for a woman today who was birthing child #4. She got to the hospital, was in observation for ...hmmm. about 45 minutes. Almost had the baby in the elevator to L&D. Babe came out so fast she had some tearing...but by 1 hour after arriving, a new baby girl was welcomed! One of her brothers, age 2 was somewhat unimpressed when her saw her. (was not present for the birth.) Fast enough they had no time to do anything they didn't want...she had no strep B test so they want the babe to stay 48 hours.

Anyhow, sis. More and more anxious as time wore on. She's healthy, baby's healthy. She stopped her blood thinners so they are watching her placenta. However...when they decided she could not deliver under their requirement at the birth center...she's hired a CPM I found, (for me in the future for a home VBAC with no previous vaginal birth.) Once she decided on a homebirth, she's a new woman! Homebirths are not very common here and this is not a CPM-friendly state. She's 38 wks on saturday, and I don't think she's going long...we're seeing a lot of nesting activity. They are still not big Bradley fans. I think some of the was the "click" with the instructor. The hypnobirthing class was more valuable to them for the instructor (a midwife I know) rather than its content. However, without the Bradley encouragement to go against the flow, I don't know if she would have had the courage to do this! She hasn't been brave enough to "fire" her docs/midwives yet...I think she's planning on saying "oops! It was too quick!" since we live about 45 minutes from the hospital. I've already bought an embroidered "born at home" onsie as a baby surprise! Her supplies are ready and the whole family is excited. I am jealous...I will be at home one day, once I have a pregnancy unaffected by our genetic condition (I have a 65% chance of avoiding it.) It's odd....she's embracing homebirth more for what it isn't (the hospital, and her anxiety of strangers), more than for what it is. But however she got there, she seems VERY relaxed as we wait for the baby to arrive!

Our only problem now is the birth certificate...our health dept apparently sends out an "investigator."

[kama'aina mama]

Okay... well I'm sorry she didn't enjoy the class, but it sounds like the messages about consumerism may have helped her a lot. That is heartening. Will you let us know how it goes when the babe arrives? What an exciting time! I'm sure your sis's midwife can talk you through how to handle the birth certificate and investigation. All the best to you all!

[cherie]

Hi! I'm new at posting as well as motherhood; I have a 6 month old. However, motherhood and all its joys have over taken me. I really want to continue and help others. How do you become a Bradley instructor, doula, lactation consultant, etc.? I would appreciate any help.
Peace,
Cherie

[kama'aina mama]

I don't know about the other vocations you asked about, but follow this link to learn more about teaching Bradley. (http://www.bradleybirth.com/) It takes a while to get certified. There is a 4 day workshop and there are a fair number of books to read. Then you teach a provisional class, and take a written test. Good luck in whatever you choose to persue!

[XM]

deleted.

[UnschoolingAmerica]

Xiola's Momma,

I can't begin to tell you how sorry I am for your loss. I was in tears reading your post. I can understand how angry you are at your doula's and I would be too. It is unfortunate that they had their own selfish motives in mind before yours. That is totally against everything I personally stand for. I do not think that one becomes a Bradley teacher because of their own selfish motives, but I bet in some that grows slowly.
Thanks to your post, You have given me a perspective and a focus and something to strive for. I am a new Bradley teacher. I think it is important to keep in mind why I began doing this the first place. I know about those type of militant Bradley teachers. Bradley has a bad-rap because of them. Your doula's/teachers were very much in the wrong personally for how your birth was handled. What you described is not anything we learned in Bradley training. I have never even heard of what those "women" did to you as something beneficial for a laboring woman. That is just unspeakable. Those women should be thrown in jail. They were stepping way over their boundries in my opinion.
Anyway, I just wanted to tell you how sorry I was. I will never forget your story, and I will keep it in mind every single class that I plan, and every single birth that I attend. Thank you for sharing something so personal, and tragic, to help others such as myself, become the best teacher I can possibly be. To be open-minded, and intelligent and remember what is most important in all of this.
Thank you, and I will never forget what you have shared.

[crowbaby]

Xiola's Momma,

I am so very sorry for what happened, and for the loss of your precious child. What happened to you was just unspeakably awful, and tragic. Thank you so much for sharing your story with us. It has defintely impacted me, and I will keep it in mind always. I urge you to contact the American Academy of Husband Coached Childbirth (The Bradley People), and tell them your story. If anything they should know what is being done in the name of Bradley. Dr. Bradley would never have condoned what was done by these women.

American Academy of Husband-Coached Childbirth® Box 5224 Sherman Oaks, CA 91413-5224

1 800 4ABIRTH (although that is usually just a machine. However you could leave your name and number)

http://www.bradleybirth.com

It is sad that nurses don't understand that natural birth rarely involves screaming and that screaming should be a sure sign that at least the Dr. needs to be summoned. However, they see so few natural births, and are so used to the cultural stereotype of birth...This of course in no way underestimates the part these doulas had to play in your loss, it is just an observation on nursing in general.

If there is anything else I can do, please let me know. I am going to let my friends on the Bradley board at Parentsplace.com know about your post so that they can share in the knowledge that you have given us. Again, thank you for telling us your extremely sad and horrible story.

Karen :(

[XM]

deleted.

[Sofiamomma]

Xiola's momma, I am very, very, very sorry for your loss. That is so sad! And it takes a lot of courage for you to tell your story here. It's awful that you were treated that way by people who were supposed to be helping you. I have heard of pushing on the hip bones both as a comfort measure and as a way to help baby descend during pushing, after complete dilation, usually while mom is squatting. What has me totally baffled is why nothing was done about your or your baby's distress. IME, nurses do *not* consider screaming part and parcel of a natural birth. Screaming would have caused at least one if not two or three of my co-workers to stick their heads in the door. I'm also really surprised that the new nurse did nothing, I would think being new, she would be *more* likely to summon assistance, since she was probably lacking in confidence. And surely your baby's distress and imminent death would have shown up on the monitor? I don't mean to be insensitive, but it just doesn't make sense to me. I wonder if there was not more going on besides two inept doulas. If you had a perinatologist, rather than an OB, I would guess you'd have surely been on a monitor, and that you were in a larger hospital with many nurses around. None of them checked on you when you were screaming? This is just so awful! It shouldn't have happened!! And my heart is just breaking for you and your sweet little baby.

[XM]

deleted.

[Sofiamomma]

Xiola's Mommy,

I am shaking as I write this that you thought I was suggesting you are somehow to blame! NO, NO, NO, NO!! Absolutely not!! I am NOT a Bradley instructor, in fact, I do not even prefer Bradley method (no offense, ladies, to each their own). I actually stumbled across this thread while searching for something else. I am a homebirth midwife (not currently practicing) and a hospital labor and delivery nurse. Your story caused me great distress that something like that happened under the noses of L&D nurses and a perinatologist. Bad things happen, period, and often no one is to blame, but it sounded fishy and I wondered if it was more complicated than just the doulas being inept. I am not cold, I don't think you are to blame, and it would never cross my mind that a mother somehow deserved to have her baby die. I worry with every breath I take that I will lose my daughter or baby on the way. No one deserves to lose a child, no one. It must be the worst possible pain and thinking you are to blame can only make it worse. Please hear me. You are not to blame, nor your sweet baby's father. You did what you thought was best, learning Bradley, eating well for the health of your baby, hiring doulas, a midwife, and a perinatologist due to your previous injury. All those things were the right things to do. Knowing your baby was in trouble and asking to have her monitored was the right thing to do. Unfortunatley, those who attended you did not respect the sacredness of a mother's knowing and your baby was lost. God bless you! Please understand I was not making assumptions or insinuations. You are absolutely right, I was not there, I don't know what happened. Your story so upset me that I was trying to picture how that might have happened, since I work under similar circumstances I had several questions. I am so sorry you misunderstood. I did not mean to imply you were at fault, but wondered if any one else, besides the doulas (i.e. the doc, the nurses), may have made some grave errors. Your latest post, tells me it was indeed the doulas' arrogance, combined with the new nurse's timidity that cost Xiola's life. You are right to be angry and warn others. I hope you can somehow find some peace in all this and realize that you are not to blame for your daughter's death.

[XM]

deleted.

[Clarity]

well, this thread is in a different place now (with sympathy to you xiola's mama...my first child was stillborn too, 2 years ago- pm me if you'd like the names of some of the books I found comforting...it has been a long journey! Ann Douglas's Unofficial Guide to Pregnancy has the best loss section of any mainstream pregnancy book...she has authored a book on loss, so it was nice she had that background to bring to her pregnancy book. Most books ignore it in a most callous fashion.

-----

But MY SISTER! Delivered at HOME, last monday a DD, 9lbs 15oz!!! Some meconium, a slight drop in heart tones during the height of pushing...but mostly a slow steady labor of about 30 hours. I do think, even if they still complain about it, that Bradley helped them have the birth they wanted. I was honored to be there, even if it dredged up some of my own pain over birth experiences. Turns out our CPM also caught a baby for my sister's Bradley instructor!

[crowbaby]

I am so glad we can share these experiences. Altough I have never lost a child near or at term and have no idea the pain that you both must have gone through, I am glad you can share with us. I miscarried a baby when I was about 20 years old and along with guilt for not wanting the baby, I also missed it. I hope we can all gather strength for our shared experiences...

Karen :)

[Kirsten]

Firstly, I would like to also extend my deepest sympathy to you Xiola'sMomma! What an incredibly difficult thing to go through. I think finding others who understand and sympathize is so crucial in whatever we need support for. Even with smilies, it is so hard to "read" others' emotions, tone of voice, intent. Your painfully sad story will surely make all of us think - and remember. I see you live in Seattle. I live on the eastside. Did this happen here in Seattle? I used a Bradley instructor, three different midwives, a hospital (once) and a freestanding birth center (once) between '95 and '00. Please PM me if you want to talk more. I can give you some great recommendations if you want!!
Secondly, congrats to all of you who want to make a positive difference in the lives of birthing couples! I have also thought of being a Bradley instructor someday when my kids are older. I think it is a fine line we need to walk between informing of the risks of medical interventions and making them seem never appropriate. Of course I am thrilled that c-sections are available and safe if god forbid I ever needed one. Will I do absolutely everything in my power to avoid one? You bet. Would I rather have one than lose my baby? Of course. What makes it difficult is that many medical professionals make it seem like you will harm your baby if you don't follow the medical routine. No ultrasound?? No doppler?? Etc. So it is kind of like the boy who cried wolf - when you may really need one, you don't trust what they are telling you. Sad when we should all want the same thing - healthy baby, happy parents. Is natural childbirth the greatest thing I have ever experienced? Absolutely! Do I wish it for every woman? More than anything. But I know it will not always work out that way and that has to be OK too.
Thirdly (geez this is getting long - sorry) I totally agree with the importance of "clicking" with your childbirth instructor. I decided on Bradley classes (or decided to pursue the idea more) and called two in my area. The first just didn't make a lot of sense to me, didn't seem too excited to talk to me, we just didn't click. I called the second one and we just clicked - she was happy, upbeat, made me feel very comfortable. We were finishing each other's sentences before the end of the conversation. It is now almost 7 years after that phone call and she and I are friends. She comes to our kids' birthday parties, is forever on our Xmas list, has "Auntie Geeny" (what my kids call her) pages in my kids' scrapbook photo albums. I have sent her tons of business as I really believe what she taught us made the difference in having the incredible births we had vs. what most people get in this country today. So let the passion you feel show, be supportive and educate the couples you teach but remember Xiola and keep necessary medical help in the acceptable plan for moms. Oh, and I think natural childbirth teachers not being doulas for their own students is a good idea - had never thought of it before this thread but it probably is a conflict of interest.
Sorry SO long!
Kirsten

[XM]

deleted.

[gabesmama]

Xiola's Mama,

My heart goes out to you. I read about what happened and I was in tears. It is so important that you shared your story so that other women would not have to go through what you went through.

I could not possibly understand what you feel when I am so upset from just reading about your loss.

Take Care,

Lori

[jacksmom]

Hello. I'm a teacher in Long Beach, CA and have a couple of video recommendations. I don't use any of the Bradley videos except for Birth in the Squatting position, which is not actually a Bradley video, but is dubbed over by them. Injoy videos has an excellent selection of birth videos which is where almost all of mine came from. They are almost all very expensive, but, (I know this is bad), you can preview them for 30 days and dub them if you have 2 vcrs. ( I feel bad because I know the makers of most of these need support, but when a video is $300-500, they're really priced more for hospitals, and not for single-mom/me. There are some good cheaper ones, and I do pay for those when I get them.
Giving Birth: Choices and Challenges is really good, and their "Understanding Labor" , which is a compilation of 10 different short segments is GREAT. It has "understanding labor", "understanding interventions", "understanding comfort techniques", etc. It takes a pro-natural stance, but shows it in a balenced way, which my students have often said that they appreciated. Gentle Birth Choices is really good, but it's REALLY anti-hospital, and if you're working with a lot of hospital birthing couples, they can be put-off by it. You can find it really cheap on the internet; I think I paid about $20. "16 steps to Better Breastfeeding" is a fairly inexpensive excellent breastfeeding video.
Someone earlier mentioned the terms that Dr. Bradley used for body parts, etc. It is annoying, I know, but the reason is because when he started teaching all of this stuff, he wasn't allowed to say things like vagina or uterus on t.v. or out at public appearances, so he used terms like "baby box". I don't like Husband-Coached Childbirth much at all, so I have my students read the Natural Childbirth the Bradley Way book. It says a couple of things I don't agree with, like that it's better to lay down through most of the labor, but it's so much better than the one by Dr. Bradley. He sounds like he was really senile by the time he rambled through that thing.

[jacksmom]

Ohhhh, I just posted a second ago after reading through just the first page of this thread, and hadn't taken the time to see where this thread had gone. I am so sorry for not noticing and acknowledging this terrible loss. :crying I am so sorry for your pain, Xiola'smama.
This is absolutely in no way your fault; it sounds as though you were doing everything you could to have a healthy natural birth for your child and it is such a tragedy for you to lose such a beautiful precious new life.:grouphug

[jacksmom]

Hello. I'm a teacher in Long Beach, CA and have a couple of video recommendations. I don't use any of the Bradley videos except for Birth in the Squatting position, which is not actually a Bradley video, but is dubbed over by them. Injoy videos has an excellent selection of birth videos which is where almost all of mine came from. They are almost all very expensive, but, (I know this is bad), you can preview them for 30 days and dub them if you have 2 vcrs. ( I feel bad because I know the makers of most of these need support, but when a video is $300-500, they're really priced more for hospitals, and not for single-mom/me. There are some good cheaper ones, and I do pay for those when I get them.
Giving Birth: Choices and Challenges is really good, and their "Understanding Labor" , which is a compilation of 10 different short segments is GREAT. It has "understanding labor", "understanding interventions", "understanding comfort techniques", etc. It takes a pro-natural stance, but shows it in a balenced way, which my students have often said that they appreciated. Gentle Birth Choices is really good, but it's REALLY anti-hospital, and if you're working with a lot of hospital birthing couples, they can be put-off by it. You can find it really cheap on the internet; I think I paid about $20. "16 steps to Better Breastfeeding" is a fairly inexpensive excellent breastfeeding video.
Someone earlier mentioned the terms that Dr. Bradley used for body parts, etc. It is annoying, I know, but the reason is because when he started teaching all of this stuff, he wasn't allowed to say things like vagina or uterus on t.v. or out at public appearances, so he used terms like "baby box". I don't like Husband-Coached Childbirth much at all, so I have my students read the Natural Childbirth the Bradley Way book. It says a couple of things I don't agree with, like that it's better to lay down through most of the labor, but it's so much better than the one by Dr. Bradley. He sounds like he was really senile by the time he rambled through that thing.

[XM]

deleted.

[jacksmom]

Hello. Thanks for accepting my apology. I'm sorry if this is (I guess there shouldn't be an "if" there-how could it not be?) a sore topic, but I just can't understand the hospital staff's role in your situation. They are the ones who are supposed to be responsible for the medical care of your baby, not your doulas, but it sounds like this was somehow reversed. The role of a doula is that when the going gets tough, to remind you to stick to the decisions that you made ahead of time, and should interventions become necessary, to help you to understand them and make educated new choices. If it's medically obvious that there is a problem, even the meekest nurse should be able to walk out of the room and get the doctor without confronting the doulas herself.
Were you feeling the urge to push, but they were not allowing you to do so? I'm a doula and I've always been relieved when the mom felt the urge to push, because she's "made it", I don't understand trying to get her to hold off. Maybe I'm not understanding what they did exactly. I'm also not clear on the monitoring that was going on-was there absolutely no monitoring at all because they were insisting on that? It sounds like a very bizarre situation. I hope that I'm not asking too many questions for your comfort about this sensitive topic. As a mom, I can't even imagine what you've gone through.
:hug

[XM]

deleted.

[Sumobabe]

Xiola's Momma, I am so sorry for your loss. I can't imagine how difficult it must be to lose a child.

This whole thread, and another about Bradley I read earlier, really strikes a chord with me. We used the Bradley method, but I didn't learn one thing in class that I didn't already know through my own (admittedly extensive) reading. The folks who run the AAHCC are pretty nonresponsive when you talk to them about the dated quality of some of the materials, etc. I think they're a "Mom and Pop" organization that has outgrown it's "Mom and Pop" days. That said, I did learn some things from them in the teacher's training that my teacher should have covered that would have been really helpful.

So I've about decided that any childbirth class is only as good as the instructor and her biases and prejudices.

I wish there was a kinder, gentler Bradley method: one that kept the good, got rid of the bad, and didn't have the polarizing effect that you get when you mention the Bradley method.

Stephanie

[chirotona]

This is great! I am starting my first class Oct. 1st. I have three students all referred to me by my midwife. She is wonderful. I live in Phoenix, AZ. and there are not many (5) "certified" instructors here and its a BIG city. A lot of work to be done. I think the most important thing in regards to outdated looks of material is the content itself. It is VERY valuable. Whats kind of funny is that the teenagers and adults today are wearing some of the same clothes and look similar to the people in the videos.
Keep up the good work everyone! We need to get this stuff so we have more healthy babies!
Tona :angel

[chirotona]

Prayers to your family. Xiola's mommy.

I believe your are right with the militant attitudes of some of the Bradley instructors. I think that is why I wanted to become one so that I know the mommies and daddies to be are given information to make an educated decision. I would never want someone to think that some thing they may NEED during pregnancy or delivery is unnecessary. I am a huge advocate of drug free births but also know that not every pregnancy is "normal." We were all created different in some way and all have different genetics. My Bradley instructor was of the militant type but being a chiropractor and having more education about the body behind me, helped my husband and I both to make safe choices. Our midwife is wonderful. She does not take chances. As a matter of fact one of are very best friends had to have a c-section because the midwife was humble enough to recognize that this was not a normal pregnancy/birth. I thank you for sharing your story just so that maybe future instuctors will realize the impact of their attitude and words have on expecting parents.
Tona

[XM]

deleted.

[Mamax3]

Xiola's Momma

I am so sorry that you lost that sweet little baby....the pain must be unimaginable. I just wanted to say that I think you have every right to be upset with your doulas....I am a labor and delivery nurse, who has experience with overbearing doulas who have made a childbirth that would have been beautiful and healthy result in a bad outcome. My heart goes out to you......I wish that the young nurse had, had enough courage to stand up to them. We have a very overbearing doula/Bradley instructor/ La Leche League leader in our community who is militant about natural childbirth without the interventions and we have had some bad outcomes because of this person. In fact, she has given doulas, the bradley method, and la leche league a bad name at our hospital. In recent months she has even been suspected of assisting in homebirths that are illegal in our state, not to mention, she has no credentials to be delivering babies....two of the three babies that she assisted in delivery at home have ended up in our NICU after delivery due to her incompetence........these were heathy women with pregnancy's that were uncomplicated but with the lack of skill on her part, the baby's aspirated and ended up with serious lung infections.

I totally believe in natural childbirth and love the Bradley method (I always request to have a bradley patient because the birth is truly amazing and beautiful) but I also know that if I have to intervene because of fetal or maternal distress, I have the equipment, the drugs and the drs there to help.

I just wanted to back you up in saying that I agree that your doula could be to blame since I have seen it happen.

I think Doulas are wonderful when they do their job in comforting mothers but when they get cocky and stand in the way of the health care professionals doing their jobs than the doula is negligent. I would definately complain to your doula's superiors, she should NOT be practicing or teaching Bradley for that matter.

I read on another thread that you are pregnant..........congratulations, may you have a beautiful healthy baby.

[XM]

deleted.

[kama'aina mama]

I just want to say a few things about my experiences thus far with the AAHCC and the direction that this discussion has taken. I have found the Academy to be receptive to new ideas, but it can't always act on those ideas in the way you would like. There are some things they can't do anything about. For example, they can't change what Dr Bradley wrote and since he is dead now neither can he. The text of his book and direct quotes from him are what they are: phrased by a man born around the turn of the century.

Some of the other desired changes discussed here may or may not be in the works, but I will say this... I don't think there is a lot of money in teaching natural childbirth and revised books and super looking new videos cost a lot of money. Personally I am willing to make up for outmoded language and videos featuring people with big hair and bell bottoms rather than need to charge people twice as much for classes so I can buy brand new movies and pay for a total revision of all the written material. Just my opinion, worth exactly what you pay for it.

Xiola's Mom, there are no words to express how terrible what happened to you and your family is. What those women did was wrong. It was far outside what the Bradley Method teaches and I hope someone stops them. I am not sure what the Academy's official stance is on instructors hiring out as doulas to their students. I know that many instructors are happy to come to students births if asked, to help out in any way they can, often at no extra charge. If they have run their class properly your partner should be taking care of you and they should just be giving him (or her) a bit of a hand. They should not be trying to run the show.

[lisamarie]

Bumping:D

Warmly~

Lisa:hug