I don't think I know the answer so I thought I would ask here.

Where does the Messiah fit into the jewish traditions/scriptures?

Do you believe there is a Messiah coming? And how will we know it is him?

does that make sense?

thanks in advance
tracy

Historically...
The messiah concept was a mediterranean idea that someone as a male of a virgin birth, who is executed and resurrects are common themes. He would be born of a certain tribe and save the world from itself and make it a perfect place for all to live. Sorry, but it all has roots throughout the entire region. I have students in my Greek Orthodox class who are Palestinian and claim to be related to Jesus.

I am sure more Torah observant Jews can give you more religious and better answers, but it does have its roots in the Mediterranean Cultures.

I'm not Jewish but my sociology elective in college was Judaic Studies, then I develpoed a secret crush on my professor and became engrossed in the history so I took two more classes after that. I have my text books here.

Rabbi Hayim Halevy Donin, in his text "To Be a Jew" states this:

Wherever we find any mention of God's blessings upon Israel in the religious literature or any version of the "end days" which speaks of the coming of the Messiah* and the Messaniac period for all the world, it also refers to Israel's return to the land of Israel and to its dwelling safely and securely therein.

then the * note says:

The word Messiah is derived fro mthe Hebrew word mashiach which means "anointed" (with oil). The Messiah in Jewish thought was never coneived of as a Divine Being. As God's anointed representative, the Mesiah would be aperson who would bring about the political and spiritual redemption ofthe people of Israel through the ingathering of Jews to their ancestral home of Eretz Yisrael and the restoration of Jerusalem to its spiritual glory. He would bring about an era marked by the moral perfection of all mankind and the harmonious coexistence of all peoples free of war, fear, hatred and intolerance. (see Isaiah 2 and 11 and Micah 4)

Claimants to the Messianic title arose at various times throughout Jewish history. The criterion by which each was judged was: Did he succeed in accomplishing what the Mesiah was supposed to accomplish? By this criterion, none qualified. the mesianic era is still ahead of us. ....

Here's Isaiah 2:

In the last days
the mountain of the Lord's temple willbe established as chief amng the mountains. It will be raised above the hills and all nations will stream to it:
Many peoples will come and say:

Come, let us go up to the mountain of the Lord
to the house of God and Jacob
He will teach us his ways
so that we may walk in his paths
the law will go out form Zion
the word of the Lord from Jerusalem
he will judge between the nations
and he will settle disputes for many peoples
they will beat their swords into plowshares
and their spears into pruning hooks
Mation will not take up sword against nation
nor will they train for war anymore
come O house of Jacob
let us walk in the light of the Lord.

Isaiah 11:

A shoot will come up form the stump of Jesse
from is roots a Branch will bear fruit
The spirit of the Lord will rest on him
the spirit of wisdom and of understanding.
the Spirit of counsel and of power
the Spirit of knowledge and of the lord

He will not judge by what he sees with his eyes,
or decide by what he hears with his ears
but with righteousness he will judge the needy
with justice he will give decisiona
for the poor of the earth
he will strike the earth with the rod of his mouth
with the breath of his lips he will slay the wicked
Righteousness will be his belt
and faithfulness the sash around his waist.

the woldwill live with the lamb
the leopard will lie down with the goat,
the calf and the lion and the yearling together
and a little child will lead them
the cow will feed with the bear
their young will lie down together
and the lion will eat straw like the ox
The infant will play near the whole of the cobra
andthe young child put his hand into the viper's nest
They will neither harm or destroy on all my holy mountain
for the earth will be full of the knowledge of the Lord as the waters cover the sea.

....

In tht day the Lord will reach out his hand a second time to reclaim the remnant taht is left from (a whole bunch of places)

He will rise a banner for the nations and gather theexiles of Israel;
He will assemble the scattered people of Judah
from the four quarters ofthe earth
Ephraim's jealousy will vanish and Judah's enemies will be cut off...

Michah echoes everything in Isaiah

Sorry abut type-os I don't have time to go back and correct my shoddy typping!

I kind of get that this Mesiah is a political figure more than anything for the Jews. Where he is anointed by god of course, he is mostly carrying out a unification of peoples on earth, restoration of the Jews, etc.

Also, I don't see anywhere where they say he born of vigin birth in the scripture of the old testatment - the Torah.

The "Virgin " birth is the Mediterranean cultural interpretation of the "Messiah".

The Torah does speak of a "Maiden" giving birth to the Messiah, so "virgin birth" is actually a mistranslation, but an idea that more closely follows the mediterranean myths of the time.


Many rabbinical scholars feel that the messianic age may just be that - an epoch in Jewish history without one person ushering it in, but just a wonderful time for the world - a PAX ROMANA for the Jews if you want.

Not to go bang off topic here - but it reminds me of the fabled "Age of Aquarius" people speak of and prophesy about. worldwide healing and transformation, enlightenment - etc.

"Age of Aquarius"? :scratch ... Okay, I'll take it. :)

As a total side-injection, my rebbe z'l insisted that Mashiakh would be a couple (male&female). Going by the kabbalistic idea that one soul is not complete without its mate, and that Mashiakh would assuredly be ... well, complete ...

:)

miriam, trying to understand the point of the related-to-Jesus thing.

He was a Jew from the tribe of Judah. So are most Jews (nonconverts, anyway) around today, except for the Levi'im and Kohanim ... so I'd guess most of us are related to him. And including the married-outs ... well, I'd guess lots of nonJews are related to him, too. :)

What your students said ... well, Yasser Arafat y'sh did call Jesus "the first Palestinian." :LOL Though sure'n his yiddishe mama would've been surprised at that ... :LOL

How will we know it is him?
Hmmm. I think the answer is, we'll notice the results.

The Klezmatics do a rendition of this old Yiddish song, Schnirele Perele. It's a great version of a 19th century Hasidic folksong.

Here's how they translated the song:


A string of pearls, a golden banner
The messiah, son of David, sits on high
Holding a goblet in his right hand
Making a blessing on the whole land.

Amen and amen, this is sure
Moshiach will come this year

If he comes by chariot,
there will be good years.
If he comes on horseback,
There will be good times,
If he comes on foot,
The Jews will live in erets yisroyl.


In other words, they weren't picky about how he came, just as long as he came...

Me, I didn't grow up with heavy messianism. It was definitely a major theme in 2nd Temple/Early Rabbinic Judaism. But so was the afterlife, and the Reform movement didn't "do" that one, either! :D We mainly talked about a "messianic age."

Right now we are in the "messy-antic" age...:p

MERPK:

I am only quoting the Lebanese and Syrian students I have in my third grade class. They all claim to be related to each other (which may explain some things!), call each other cousins, and claim to be related to Jesus.

I do not believe this at all; I am simply relating the thinking of a present-day Mediterranean culture with the ancient cultural concept of a "messiah".

I teach in a Christian Orthodox School, but I am not the only Jewish teacher there. The education the students receive is otherwise superb and excellent quality. The idea that they are related to "Jesus" the messiah in their minds, comes from their parents and families, not my teaching.

I do not teach religion.

Sorry that I did not make that clear in the first place.

trabot, this thread started out far off base, in being an answer from the traditional jewish perspective.*edited because I am not allowed to say stuff like that*

Anyway, Moshiach is to be a leader, much like moshe rabeinu (moses) who will lead the jewish people, and the world out of this exile. Moshiach will help everyone know Hashem.
Fit in to the jewish tradition? It is one of the thirteen "articles of faith" (of Manonides) that moshiach will come. We believe, we wait each day.
We will know that moshiach is truly here when we see the results that moshiach is supposed to accomplish (world peace, the jews all united in eretz yisrael, etc)

HTH

-BelovedBird

it does have its roots in the Mediterranean Cultures.
This bothers me. It is your belief that its root is in another culture and not from Torah. All torah observant/ orthodox jews believe otherwise. To us it isn't a matter of belief or opion, it is a fact. But on a thread asking for the "anthropological basis" (by way of example) for the messiah I STILL would not state my belief as fact, as you have done here, I would be honest enough to acknowledge that my belief is foregn to what it seems the OP is looking for ("basis in JEWISH tradition and scripture" in this thread).


-BelovedBird

Originally posted by trabot
Where does the Messiah fit into the jewish traditions/scriptures?


you weren't really expecting one answer, were you? :)

more or less traditional view...

http://www.jewfaq.org/moshiach.htm

conservative view...

Since no one can say for certain what will happen in the Messianic era each of us is free to fashion personal speculation. Some of us accept these speculations are literally true, while others understand them as elaborate metaphors....

reform and reconstructionist take the abstraction of moshiach even further, many eliminating the concept alltogether.

and any moment now DaryLLL should be coming along to document how widely-spread the idea of moshiach/messiah was in those days among Jews and non-Jews alike. :)

Originally posted by BelovedBird
It is your belief that its root is in another culture and not from Torah.

that wasn't how i read her post: she seemed to be saying that many mediterannean cultures of "those times" had messiahnic beliefs, which is true.

Wow. Thanks you guys. This is all interesting to me.
I'm sorry if my original posting threw you guys off at all but I really was coming from a place way in the dark.

I have always head about the messiah...but I have so many jewish friends and in talking about religion and various things with them I don't think any of them believe that there is a actual messiah coming. which got me wondering 'where does messiah fit?"

And now having read the replies... I guess some believe he will come and it will be clear. And others think it is something more broad than an actual person coming in....right?

and does it change among the different groups, Hassidic versus Ashkenazi?

Originally posted by dado
you weren't really expecting one answer, were you? :)

Since no one can say for certain what will happen in the Messianic era each of us is free to fashion personal speculation. Some of us accept these speculations are literally true, while others understand them as elaborate metaphors....
and any moment now DaryLLL should be coming along to document how widely-spread the idea of moshiach/messiah was in those days among Jews and non-Jews alike. :)

OK, you sucked me in dado!!!

If this is OT, my apologies.

Literalist believers of any religion will look for a literal savior. Mystics or gnostics find it to be an archetype or psychological symbol. The myth cycle includes a fall into physicality (genesis) and a return to the primal parent (exodus), with the help of a redeemer figure.

Savior, Redeemer, Messiah, Christ, King and Annointed are all synonyms.

(even more OT, chrysm means oil in Greek. When I leaned this I thought it gave a whole new meaning to the product name Crisco! Yikes!)

Yes, it was a common idea in the Mediterranean region for a while before and after the turn of the new millenium (BCE--CE).

As far as I know, Osiris was one of the first. I believe the idea got started when sun/mountain/war male gods got going around 4000 BCE or so. Even so, the Goddess was often the eternal great god, the dying and ressurecting god somewhat lesser. Eventually this Goddess was suppressed.

We had Osiris, Adonis, Dionysus, Attis, Tammuz, Damuzi, Mithras, Bacchus. And of course, Jesus/Yeshua. The Jewish Lord (YHVH) was himself called a Redeemer. YVSVH is the spelling for Yeshua, Joshua and Jesus, all the same person. Just adding an S to the first (unpronouncable) name. Many early Xtians (Paul included)thought of Moses/Yeshua together as a Christ.

Many many human men were also thought to be redeemers/saviors. Often they were thought be be offspring of a god and a human female. Pythagorous was thought to be in this category. Many Roman emperors had monuments and inscriptions in this theme. "Ushering in a new ago of peace and prosperity" and so on.


He is born! He is born! O come and adore him!
Life-giving mothers, the mothers who bore him,
Stars of the heavens the daybreak adorning.
Ancestors, ye, of the Star of the Morning.
Women and men, O come and adore him,
Child who is born in the night.

He is born! He is born! O come and adore him!
Dwellers in Afterworld, be joyful before him,
Gods of the heavens come near and behold him,
People of earth, O come and adore him!
Bow down before him, kneel down before him,
King who is born in the night.

He is born! He is born! O come and adore him!
Young like the moon in its shining and setting,
Over the heavens his footsteps are ranging.
Starts never resting and stars never setting,
Worship the child of God's own begetting!
Heaven and earth, O come and adore him!
Bow down befire him, keel down before him!
Worship, adore him, fall down before him!
God who is born in the night. :Bow

--hymn to Osiris

Originally posted by dado
that wasn't how i read her post: she seemed to be saying that many mediterannean cultures of "those times" had messiahnic beliefs, which is true.

Really?
Well, I guess it is up to Miriam to say. But I have never heard the expression "It's roots are" to mean that something happened to have something in common with something else, rather that the thing is a direct result of the other thing- that it "came out of" it.

and does it change among the different groups, Hassidic versus Ashkenazi
Chassidim are a kind of ashkenazim. (for further info on the differences between the various group names are look at jewfaq- the link provided by dado)
Pretty much (have never heard of otherwise) all torah observant jews believe there will be an actual moshiach and the world will change in some way after he shows up- at some point. The details are not that important to most of us.
And none of us believe that he will be in any way a god, or divine. Just a person, holy, knowledgable, righteous and a leader. Definitely not god.

I have no idea where Daryl is getting what she wrote or whose beliefs those are. Definately not judaism.

Christ (christos in greek) is the translation (more or less) for moshiach- annointed.

Anyway, where it fits in today is another question. You know that Maimonides (medieval legal authority from the Sephardi tradition) placed belief in the coming of the messiah in his 13 principles of faith he thought all Jews should believe. But as I wrote, the Reform movement and other reform (lower case R) movements have soft-pedaled the whole messiah thing. I think it's a combination between wanting to distance themselves from Christianity and finding the whole thing kind of embarassingly irrational.

Though we did learn to sing "Ani Ma'amin" (I believe) a song about believing in the Messiah. I guess they thought we wouldn't understand it? Too bad for them, I did and do understand what I'm singing when you hand me a random Hebrew song or prayer...

But in fact it's a core part of rabbinic Judaism, just like a lot of other stuff that I grew up thinking was decoration.

There are Chasidim (yes, they are Ashkenazi Jews) today who are expecting the moshiach any minute now. A pop music version of "Ani Ma'amin" was a worldwide hit about ten years ago. I've been to weddings where they danced to it.

Originally posted by BelovedBird
And none of us believe that he will be in any way a god, or divine. Just a person, holy, knowledgable, righteous and a leader. Definitely not god.

you make a very important point and one very few Jews would disagree with, whatever their feelings about the coming of, etc.

Well, BB, I said it was OT.

But a little bit of it was correct, Jewish-wise wasn't it?

I learned some of it from you.

Then I took off and read some books.

My most bestest favorite :book is The Jesus Mysteries, a book about non-literalist, mystic interpretations of the Jesus/Sophia myth cycle. Aka gnosticism.

Jesus and the Lost Goddess is its sequel. In it, I found some info on how the story of Jesus was a midrash designed by the Essenes, Greek speaking Jewish hermits from around 100BCE (they had left Jerusalem, disgusted with the quisling priests and the 2nd Temple Roman funny business), who created a new story for Jews, syncretizing the myth of the pagan dying and rising godmen I spoke of above, with the idea of the messiah, and the underlying esoteric meanings of the first 2 books of the Torah. I am not making this up. There is historical evidence for it. Ie: Dead Sea Scrolls and other sources.

If you read the NT, which I know you won't BB, but some might, you will see Jesus is not considered to be God in the godspells. He is considered to be Son of Man, a term for Messiah, perhaps? Raised by God after he died. Sure, some Jews believed he was the Messiah. Some still do.

(Some folks today think this gentleman is The One.)

http://www.worldandihomeschool.com/public_articles/1994/december/wis12726.asp

It wasn't until centuries later that the "church fathers" voted that, yes, Jesus was actually part of the triune God.

Of course, Unitarians don't believe this. Hence their name.

Of course, to the Jews, as I understand it, it would be heresy for G-d to be made flesh, then a human sacrifice.

I apologize if I have confused anyone. I love to compare myths and find similarities between cultures. It's just what I do. I certainly do not claim to speak for Orthodox Jewry! Ignore if it is too OT or not relevant to your spiritual life.

hey cool to everyone. just wanted to say I didn't feel miriam's points were didactic at all. She was just reporting stuff she heard and did not state it as an iron clad fact. I'm sure she meant no offense.

peace out:hippie

DaryLLL, in re you're not speaking for Orthodox Jewry ... thanks. :)

:LOL

:Peace

And in re some Jews felt Jesus was the messiah ... yes, they were the apostles. The first Christians were quite Jewish Jews. Almost certainly wore tefillin (phylacteries).

And in re those who "still do" ... those who still do are not practicing Judaism, they're believing Christians. No matter what their mother may have been ... :)

BB put everything rather clearly, didn't she. :)

And we wouldn't worry about the "heresy" of human sacrifice. G-d is not even remotely anthropomorphable ... the "made flesh" part is not Jewish. Nothing Jewish about it. Purely Christian.

And those concepts are not unique to Orthodox Jewry. They are universal, amongst all Jews.








c'o, the origins of Reform are in trying to get closer to Christianity, visibly, to become more a part of the host society, which happened to be Christian, without necessarily having to deal with Christian theology.

Remembering that the original Reform movement made the Seventh Day suddenly Sunday, instead of the up-to-that-time Jewish counting of seven to Saturday ... :eek

I remember learning a long time ago (long before I was observant ... & would have to dig around to find the source for you) that the reason the messianist ideal was tossed by the early Reformers was because it involved the gathering of the dispersed in Zion, and the fathers of the Reform movement were tired of being separated in that way from their host countrymen ... meaning the dual loyalty charge ... so that they could say they were never intending or expecting or praying to leave the Fatherland ... recalling, of course, that they were German. More German than the Germans, as they'd say.

Lotta good it did them. :(

Regarding the Hasidim and the Messiah:

(Q.V.: THE CHOSEN, , by Chaim Potok)

It is my reading and understanding of the Hasidic sects that the creation of the State of Israel in our time is an affront to G-d since only the coming of the Messiah would bring about the Jewish Nation State, not man.

There was a movie starring Rod Steiger as the Rebbe about this idea.

I think both the Hasidic and the Reform movements are more complex and diverse than you give them credit for, Miriam and Amy. Several courts or schools of Hasidic thought currently support Zionism and the state of Israel, including the largest, Lubavitch. I believe that several sects also supported it earlier, as well. (Somehow I think that if you get your history only from novels or movies, you can wind up with a less complex idea of a group of people. The Chosen really makes everything such a neat package.)

The Reform movement wasn't necessarily about becoming more Christian, either. Now, if I had a really good memory I would know the title of the documentary history of the Reform movement...but there is at least one document in the anthology The Jew in the Modern World (Reinharz and Mendes-Flohr, eds.) from the early 19th century German Reform movement--translated from HEBREW, please--from a Maskil defender of the Reformers who insisted that the movement would result in more Jews coming to synagogue and praying with more kavanah in the vernacular. So I wouldn't attribute strictly assimilationist motivations to the early Reformers.

Though when I used to read documents from The Jew in the Modern World with my students, they all wound up agreeing with the founder of Orthodoxy, the Hatam Sofer, when he suggested that a better way to get people to have kavanah would be for them to learn Hebrew. Funny to me because most of them didn't know Hebrew well enough to have kavanah, but it shows the force of the argument!

(:OT I would love to become more consistent in my transliterations, but I just can't bring myself to use kh where everyone else uses ch, khas v'khalileh)

Even on the issue of when to observe (or in the Reform movement, celebrate!) Shabbat, it seems there was some controversy among the Reformers.

But I did grow up in one of the congregations that historically had done their main service on Sunday. They didn't call it Shabbat, they just had their main service on Sunday...so that everyone could come to hear the famous orator rabbi preach...about the need for a state of Israel. You see, the Reform movement also had some Zionists in it, some very early as well.

We Jews are very interesting, it's impossible to characterize, to pin down any movement much less any individual. The place of women, Zionism, messianism, the use of the vernacular, kashrut--name an issue and you can find a surprise about it in Jewish history.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by merpk
BB put everything rather clearly, didn't she.

not really. if she had said "orthodox" it would have been clear, but the choice of "torah-observant" is not only unclear, it's bordering on antagonistic. that phrase means very different things to different people.

Judaism is a wonderful colorful tapestry of differences, that is its strength, and imo that strength should be respected.

not really. if she had said "orthodox" it would have been clear, but the choice of "torah-observant" is not only unclear, it's bordering on antagonistic. that phrase means very different things to different people.

OOH. Excuse me. I didn't mean to be antagonistic. I am not "orthodox". I am not part of a "movement". I try to observe the torah. Most people you wouls lable as "orthodox" try to observe the torah as well. In addition to some people you might label as "conservative" or "reconstructionist" or "unaffliliated".
Whatever. I do lables as infrequently as possible. Lables cause division. Division will definately not bring moshiach. Something that me and the rest of torah observant jews want.

Have a good day.

-BelovedBird

Oh, and Dado, seeing as you are not a very regular poster n this forum mabey you don't realize that to most of the regulars the meaning of "torah observant" is very clear. That is the term that I always use to describe "us".
Do a search.

-BelovedBird

it is clear from the tone of your posts that i have offended you. my apologies.

It is easy to offend BB. I am used to doing it almost weekly!

Just a little aside. Orthodox is a greek word. It means straight thinking. The early Roman Catholics claimed to be orthodox Christians. Me, I am heterodox, bordering on heretical. :hippie :dreads

What does "praying with more kavanah" mean, Captain?

Words, words, words. I am glad we are striving for unity. We are all part of the All.

c'o, agreed that of course there are plenty of Reform Zionists now, as there are plenty of Orthodox Zionists.

My point was that when Reform began, its original incarnation, there was absolutely no room for a return to Zion. Just as there was no room for kashrut ... :LOL which is where Conservative Judaism comes in ... :)

Okay, that last was a joke, lighten up everybody ... :LOL

As the years went by the original Reform orthodoxy, if you will, was mellowed, and of course, there are Reform Zionists now.

I was not putting all of modern-day Reform into one box. I was specifically talking about the reason that the framers of German Reform (the original Reform) ditched the concept of Mashiakh and a return to Zion.

:)

dado :) in standard parlance, being "Torah observant" is usually along the same lines as being "shomer Torah u'mitzvos." Which is usually not how the "progressive denominations" refer to themselves.

And many of the folks that the "progressive denominations" refer to as "Orthodox" would prefer not to use that term to describe themselves. Most don't.


Just for clarification ... and in furtherance of :Peace ...




Wow, are we OT or what? :)

[QUOTE]Originally posted by DaryLLL
It is easy to offend BB. I am used to doing it almost weekly!
[QUOTE]

Where did I say I was offended? Please share the weekly instances where I said that with us.
Own your words, be honest.

I am far from offended. This is an internet bb. Say whatever you want about me.
Insulting others only speaks volumes of you. You don't know me in any real way so there is no way what you say about me can mean anything .

Daryl, kavanah means intention, midfulness. Prayer not just saying the words but thinking about what you are saying.

Dado, I am not sure what you are apologizing for. If calling someone's posts antagonistic ( or bordering on it, whatever)is seems appropriate to you, then go for it. I disagree with your assesment that a term that I have been using on this board for a year and a half is unclear. Torah observant would clearly mean those that attempt to observe torah law. The term is often shortened to "observant". As in "she is observant and I am not so when we go out it is usually to a kosher place".
Just because it isn't a term you use doesn't mean that a large number of jews don't. They do.

Amy, you are right that the early 19th century Reformers were for the most part jettisoning the idea of the return to Zion. But it's not only in my or my parents' generation that there were Reform Zionists, but in the late 19th and early 20th centuries, before WWI even. Think Stephen S. Wise, Judah Magnes (also first president of Hebrew U., also the person who apparently coined the name "Young Israel" (is that weird or what!!)) Abba Hillel Silver, etc. It's also not strictly accurate to think that the Reformers were uniformly anti-halachah. They had a troubled relationship with all of it.

The Conservative movement now claims the 19th century German Reformer Zecharias Frankel as the precursor to the Conservative movement with his Positive Historical Judaism. But if you think that the famous "treif banquet" should get the credit for the origins of the Conservative movement, then you should certainly be counting Frankel as a Reform precursor--and he was proto Zionist, believed in the return to Zion.

I just think that once you get into the documents, it doesn't look so cut and dried.

In the same way, you might have an image of the Hasid, but every time I read any article that goes into any depth about the history of the Hasidim, it completely shatters that image for me. I edited a piece on the Radzhiner Rebbe, the one who "rediscovered" techelet. It's wild, this guy was fluent in like 7 or 8 modern languages, and even went to the Vatican in search of documentation for his hunch about techelet. (Techelet is the blue dye mentioned in the Bible (Numbers 15:38).

Anyway, after all that excited blather, I have to say that I was raised with very little idea about the centrality of the messiah to Judaism, but now that I've done some reading I can see how central the idea is.

Since I'm writing a really long post: about kavanah and Reform. In order to fulfill the mitzvah of set prayer, Jews traditionally said prayers in Hebrew (with a couple in Aramaic). Even Jews who didn't understand Hebrew or Aramaic did this. From the time of the invention of the printing press, Ashkenazi women had prayers in Yiddish, though many of those were actually books of translation/explanation of the Hebrew prayers. It was a known problem before the rise of the Reform movement. If you read the memoirs of Glickl of Hameln, she tells her children not to stand in the back of the synagogue talking (!) but to pray and pay attention.

The early Reformers thought the solution was to pray in the vernacular, and later, to add instrumental music to the service. The Orthodox rabbis were those who took a position in opposition to these innovations. Their position was Orthodox in the sense that they said, in the words of Hatam Sofer, "Innovation is prohibited by Torah."

What was there before Reform and Orthodoxy? Well, there were other "movements" or intellectual trends, like Hasidism. But for the most part, most Jews were halachic--they followed Jewish law, halacha. The same thing as "Torah observant." It seems to me totally logical that halachic Jews today would chose that designation, since you don't want your whole observance to be defined by what you aren't. (Though I guess mitnagdim, the opponents to Hasidism, are exactly defined by what they are not!) "Orthodox" is also a problem because it's a blanket to cover all these diverse Jews, including Sephardi and Mizrachi Jews who weren't originally part of the whole machloket (disagreement or debate).

Though I guess mitnagdim, the opponents to Hasidism, are exactly defined by what they are not

All the snags (chabad slang for misnagdim) that I know never call themselves misnagdim (or mitnagdim). They (we) use the term litvish. Chasidim are usually the ones who use misnagdim (never mitnagdim;))

Just thought I'd throw that in. :p

Originally posted by BelovedBird
All the snags (chabad slang for misnagdim) that I know never call themselves misnagdim (or mitnagdim). They (we) use the term litvish. Chasidim are usually the ones who use misnagdim (never mitnagdim;))

Just thought I'd throw that in. :p

Actually, one of my dh's former rosh yeshivas calls himself "misnaged" - as in, "I'm not just not chasidic, I'm a 'misnaged'" - I guess to make the point that he idealogically disagrees with chasidism. The followers of the Vilna Gaon called themselves "misnagedim" - 'those who oppose" to stress their opposition to the positions of chasidism.

Not trying to express any personal views of chasidut (chasidism)!!!! Just a little aside......

BB, I was exaggerating in a joking manner. Sorry if it didn't come across.


As you requested, I did a search on your name to see how often you have taken me to task lately for misunderstanding your religion. Not counting this thread, you scolded me last week, but before that, I saw nothing for months!

My mistake! ;) :D

Ok, Daryl.

I had no idea that taking you to task for misunderstanding my religion was the same in your understanding as being offended. I thought being offended was about someone's feelings. Wanting there to be no misuderstanding is about making sure that everyone has their record straight. *shrug*

Yeah, Chava, I guess some misnagdim do label themselves as such. But not any that I talk to. I try to stay away from people who are anti other [frum] groups. I was refering anyway to modern day yishevish people, not previous generations. Mabey it is just the circles I travel in. *shrugging again*

(Ever so cautiously leaning in, as she admits to her eavesdropping on your terribly interesting conversation, and she wishes as many Muslims could so vibrantly discuss, and disagree, and continue to have the conversation...)

A couple months ago I was at a big convention, and I parked next to a vanload from Iowa, and on the back of the van was written something to the effect of, "the Moschiach is ready, now it's up to us." Like, a "fill the world with love and goodness and let's get this show on the road" kind of message.

Lubavitchers?

At any rate, it made me feel really good.

Again, I am sure there is plenty of variation on the whens, wheres, and whys...but is it seen as a "job" of Jews in the world to make the place ready for the coming?

(stepping back a bit, hoping to hear a few points of view on the subject)

Sister Ummnuh, bravely striving to bring this back on topic!

In case anyone is interested, when I was searching for BB, I saw some similar Messiah talk on the Jewish Mamas thread, in the latter pages.

This bb is a stalker's paradise.

Joking again.

Again, I am sure there is plenty of variation on the whens, wheres, and whys...but is it seen as a "job" of Jews in the world to make the place ready for the coming?

In short, yes.

There are many examples of sayings that tell us how/ why/ when moshiach will come. These are off the top of my head, some are obviously allegory.

If all jews kept one shabbos

when the bucket of tears, next to the throne of Hashem is full (G-d will take pity on us and return us to eretz yisrael and rebuild the beis hamikdash (temple)

Every mitzva is a brick in the third beis hamikdash (if we do enough mitzvos then the third temple, being built in heaven will come down to earth)

And here are some articles you might be interested in:

http://www.aish.com/family/rebbitzen/Bringing_the_Messiah.asp

http://www.aish.com/jewishissues/jewishsociety/Moshiach_and_the_World_Today.asp

http://www.aish.com/tishabav/tishabavdefault/The_Messiah_in_Judaism.asp

... by BB
... All the snags (chabad slang for misnagdim) that I know never call themselves misnagdim (or mitnagdim). They (we) use the term litvish. Chasidim are usually the ones who use misnagdim (never mitnagdim;))

Just thought I'd throw that in. :p

Thanks, you saved my typing fingers the effort ... :LOL

And the folks that do refer to themselves as "misnagdim" are usually using that term to put down whoever they're "neged" (against).





And c'o, the "image" of Khassidim and Khassidism in the rest of the world's view is so not ... well, of all the correcting you do on my reading about the origins of the Reform movement, there would be volumes of corrections right back. Why is it surprising that the Radziner would know other languages? Or that he might do research? :confused: Don't go back too far in your search. Remembering that the Lubavitcher Rebbe z'l (the very last one) was educated at the Sorbonne ...








Back on-topic ...

It is central to all of "Torah Judaism," as I've seen it, to bring Mashiakh. There are some, invariably "modern Orthodox," that I've met who seem embarrassed by it, but it's just a part of the daily vocabulary for everyone else.

One of my favorite favorite favorite things in the world is a good story, and while I don't have one to share at the moment, Jewish lore is filled with stories (Khassidic and otherwise) of Eliahu ha'Navi (Elijah ... who is supposed to announce the arrival of Mashiakh to the world) showing up somewhere in the world and just about ready, but then discovering, for a variety of reasons, that the Jewish people are not ready. :(

Trabot:

If you ask twelve rabbis for an opinion, you will get thrteen opinions.

There is always more than one opinion.:D

Originally posted by merpk

And c'o, the "image" of Khassidim and Khassidism in the rest of the world's view is so not ... well, of all the correcting you do on my reading about the origins of the Reform movement, there would be volumes of corrections right back. Why is it surprising that the Radziner would know other languages? Or that he might do research? :confused: Don't go back too far in your search. Remembering that the Lubavitcher Rebbe z'l (the very last one) was educated at the Sorbonne ...


Yeah, but his FIL picked him for that. Or at least, picked him for his potential for that ( I don't know when the Rebbe got married...)

Anyway, it's not as interesting to point out that our contemporaries don't fit stereotypes, it's much more fun when the historic figures don't.

"Trabot:If you ask twelve rabbis for an opinion, you will get thrteen opinions. There is always more than one opinion"

No kidding!


okay, I'm fairly smart... accent on 'fairly'...and I am having the hardest time keeping up.

Tell me if I have it wrong or right?

1.if you are reformed jewish.. You probably don't put much accent on a messiah.

2.if you are conservative jewish, you might put more accent on a messiah

3.but if you are torah observant, then you should have accent on the messiah

4. Khassidm..seems to be several possibilities.

5. And what if you are jewish from persia? I don't even know which one they are..reformed/conservative..other?

just for background:
Most of my friends are reformed jewish. For them, they don't go to temple, except on the high holidays. They say it is a cultural thing for them more than a religion. I do know a few people who are conservative jewish but we don't talk too much about it because she is a holocaust survivor and there is so much pain in her that it is difficult conversation. I live in an area which is primarily khassidm. I have a couple friends who are sephardic. And I would like to say that I have been to the oldest jewish cemetary in NYC and I think that is sephardic...probably a little left over business from the inquisition.

trabot, the breakdown of Jews into "denominations" is purely Ashkenazi nareshkeit.

Sephardim are way too smart for that. :)

Sephardic Jews are either observant or they're not.

This will get me in a mess of hot water, but as I see it, Ashkenazim got denominated because there were folks who wanted to fit in with their surrounding culture better, and Judaism just wasn't making it easy for them. So they made Judaism easy for them.





As an example: There are plenty of Hindus who eat meat, and plenty of Muslims who eat pork. They are what you would call "nonobservant." But they would never tell you that it's acceptable Hindu practice to eat meat, or that it's acceptable Muslim practice to eat pork. They'd just say they don't follow that part of the tradition.

Reform came up with the innovation that they could say it's acceptable Jewishly to eat pork or shellfish, for example. And thus they created Reform Judaism.

Conservative Judaism came about when some of the Reformers felt that some of the "innovations" went too far from Judaism altogether. Like the aforementioned acceptability of pork and shellfish.




Now, before anyone yells at me, it just seemed to me that it should be clarified, because a lot of the confusion about Judaism by nonJews stems from this confusion about the denominations, which trabot's last post made clear.





:)


:bolt

I'm not gonna yell, but I think I would explain it differently and clarify different points.

--Persian Jews aren't Sephardim, their community in Persia pre-dated the community of Jews in Medieval Spain. But it's true that they were not part of the Ashkenazi modernization thing, with the various movements (Hasidism/Mitnagdim, the Haskalah and its offshoots, the Reform movement and its offshoots, etc.) I'm just saying this because you asked about a Persian Jew, not because where people are from predicts anything.

--The movement or denomination known as Reform has participants called Reform Jews. They are not Reformed Jews. They are still in the same shape they were before. :p

--The Conservative movement gets a capital C because otherwise these Jews who are politically liberal who belong to a Conservative synagogue will be all weirded out.

--I think the Reform movement has a theology of a "messianic age" and I'm not sure about the Conservative movement.

I don't think it's accurate to say that the reason that Ashkenazi Jews have denominations is that we wanted to be like our neighbors and Sephardim (and other Jews living in Muslim countries) didn't. If you look at the countries where Reform developed in the early 19th century, you will see that all had a substantial Protestant presence or were majority Protestant. (Germany, the US and Britain--yeah there were Reformers in Hungary but it didn't really take off there.) The Reform movements got strong in countries where Christians had the idea that they could shape their religion to fit their ideology rather than the other way around. That's the reason why Reform has the most followers in the US and why the Conservative and Reconstructionist movements were started here. It's also why the "movements" are so weak in Israel.

If you look at the actual observance of US Jews who i.d. with different movements, you might find that some folks who affiliate with a Reform Temple have the same observance as Jews who affiliate with an Orthodox schul. There are both aesthetic and ideological reasons to affiliate with a movement, beyond being too lazy to keep kosher, you know? For one thing, some people might be Shabbat observant but think it's immoral not to count women in a minyan. (Or the other way, drive to synagogue on Saturday but feel just too weird about women being rabbis.)

It's also true that today, US Jews with origins from every country are being drawn into the denominational thingie because they move to places where they have to chose between different congregations.

Back to the messiah question: I think that just because someone is affiliated with this or that synagogue, you can't predict from that what they believe. The official line of the synagogue is one thing, what the individual believes is another. The number of influences that any individual Jew could experience is staggering...

I know, I'm no help.

C. O.--

--The movement or denomination known as Reform has participants called Reform Jews. They are not Reformed Jews. They are still in the same shape they were before.

--The Conservative movement gets a capital C because otherwise these Jews who are politically liberal who belong to a Conservative synagogue will be all weirded out.

:rothflmao :rotflmao :rotflmao



The official line of the synagogue is one thing, what the individual believes is another. The number of influences that any individual Jew could experience is staggering...

Just like in any other religion! :nod :scratch :confused:

C. O.--

--The movement or denomination known as Reform has participants called Reform Jews. They are not Reformed Jews. They are still in the same shape they were before.

--The Conservative movement gets a capital C because otherwise these Jews who are politically liberal who belong to a Conservative synagogue will be all weirded out.

:rotflmao :rotflmao :rotflmao



The official line of the synagogue is one thing, what the individual believes is another. The number of influences that any individual Jew could experience is staggering...

Just like in any other religion! :nod :scratch :confused:

If you look at the actual observance of US Jews who i.d. with different movements, you might find that some folks who affiliate with a Reform Temple have the same observance as Jews who affiliate with an Orthodox schul.

True, but for totally different reasons. A Torah observant (orthodox) person keeps any and all mitzvos solely (or at least primarily) because the torah, which they accept as divine commands them to. Members of the reform movement on the other hand, by being members of the movement reject the divinity of torah. They say it is a man written document. Any mitzva that they keep they do out of the desire to keep a meaningful ritual. They recognise that certain things (observance of shabbos, kosher, mikvah, sukkah, etc) are classically jewish. In theory members of the present day reform movement are supposed to learn about the traditional "jewish rituals" and mitzvos and decide which ones might be meaningful to them and observe those in the way they see fitting. In reality though, many (probably most) members of reform temples use "reform" to mean nominally jewishly affiliated. They know little of traditional jewish anything. Personally I find that said. And unfortunate.

Originally posted by BelovedBird
Members of the reform movement on the other hand, by being members of the movement reject the divinity of torah. They say it is a man written document.

Aha! This is what I thought, too, until I taught a class on the Hebrew Bible in translation at a state university. I had many students who were raised Reform or Conservative who did believe that the Torah was of divine origin! They weren't supposed to think that, because that isn't what we learned in our religious schools growing up. But hey, they weren't paying attention in Hebrew school (!) and they definitely had a lot of trouble with the idea that the Torah could be a creation of humans.

But what you say about many Jews belonging to Reform and Conservative congregations is true (nominally affiliated) Unfortunately, in my experience, not all self-identified Orthodox Jews are actually frum Jews, or Torah-observant. There is a big gap between official theology and what you will observe anthropologically.

I like the idea that Jews are a very diverse and unpredictable group. The part I don't like is how many Jews are the way they are because of their lack of Jewish education. It's possible that a lot of folks are ready for a game of muscial schuls....

But what you say about many Jews belonging to Reform and Conservative congregations is true (nominally affiliated) Unfortunately, in my experience, not all self-identified Orthodox Jews are actually frum Jews, or Torah-observant. There is a big gap between official theology and what you will observe anthropologically

Tell me about it I grew up "orthodox" which is why I use the term "torah observant".

Originally posted by BelovedBird
Tell me about it I grew up "orthodox" which is why I use the term "torah observant".

this is what i apologized for. i took your original post to imply something you may not have been implying. my bad. it's strange how a community can have so many labels for its various parts :) and still not be able to capture the essence of what is being described. :(

***

I was interested to see what Conservative Judaism says about the messiah, so I finally (!) got around to looking in "Emet ve-emunah," which is the "Statement of Principles of Conservative Judaism." It took me a bit longer than I expected to find it (in the table of contents there is no "messiah" heading... :D ), but finally, here's the pertinent quote:

"We do not know when the Messiah will come, nor whether he will be a charismatic human figure or is a symbol of the redemption of humankind from the evils of the world. Through the doctrine of a messianic figure, Judaism teaches us that every individual human being must live as if he or she, individually, has the responsibility to bring about the messianic age. Beyond that, we echo the words of Maimonides base on the prophet Habakkuk (2:3) that though he may tarry, yet do we wait for him each day."

A bit OT, but I also wanted to address the phrase "Torah observant." Isn't that really a misnomer? When you are "observant," it's more "rabbinically observant" than Torah observant. What do you think?

I forgot... I wanted to also address the Reform/Cons./Orth. observance levels. An acquiantance of mine said the other day that a lot of the Jews she knows that belong to her Conservative shul are "really Reform." To which I responded, no, they aren't Reform, they are secular. To be "Reform" seems to mean 'non-observant' to many people these days...

I assumed until quite recently, btw, that those in the U.S. who affiliate Orthodox are strictly observant. Interesting how these labels mean less in Israel.

I love that Conservative movement language--but it's wimpy, it leaves the whole question up to the individual. Where it is anyway! But still, it just seems typical somehow. "Either there will be an actual messiah, or there won't, but either way, you should be a good person..."

Originally posted by me&3

A bit OT, but I also wanted to address the phrase "Torah observant." Isn't that really a misnomer? When you are "observant," it's more "rabbinically observant" than Torah observant. What do you think?

I know that some people make a distinction between halachot (Jewish legal guidelines) that are d'rabanan (from the rabbis) and d'orisa (from the text). But I think that most observant Jews consider the rabbinic rulings to have the weight of "oral Torah." So Torah observant including oral Torah...

I actually *just* had this conversation with someone yesterday. They commented that someone was "reform" and I said, "No, they are secular. That is an insult to the Reform mov't. that everyone who does nothing all year, except maybe show up on Rosh Hashana or Yom Kippur calls themselves "Reform". I'm sure if you looked up what the Reform mov't really believes it wouldn't be 'don't do anything all year and then show up at Temple once a year'!"

Originally posted by captain optimism

I know that some people make a distinction between halachot (Jewish legal guidelines) that are d'rabanan (from the rabbis) and d'orisa (from the text). But I think that most observant Jews consider the rabbinic rulings to have the weight of "oral Torah." So Torah observant including oral Torah...

Ah, yes, I forgot about that. Still...

Me&3-
You say " Still..." as if the people who are calling themselves "torah observant" should only do so if it fits into your idea of what "torah" means. I think that you should let people lable themselves if they want to.

BB - My "still..." didn't mean that I had a problem with the way anyone wanted to label themselves. Khas v'shalom!

My original remark was more in the form of a question - like, what do you think about it? I'm taking a very interesting class that is very eye-opening to me, and my remark of "still.." were my own thoughts that I was too busy to actually write down. But I think it requires a different thread. Maybe I'll start one! ...but not now, since I have to get the kids to school ... :LOL

The Jewish Radio personality, Dennis Prager, goes to minyan at at Reform congregation (because the prayers are quicker), belongs to a Conservative congregation, and sends his children to an Orthodox Day School.

I personally enjoy listening to him, but I find this mildly amusing. This is America...you can go anywhere you want.

Okay, time for some humor:

Question: What's the difference between an Orthodox wedding, a Conservative wedding, and a Reform wedding?

Answer: At an Orthodox wedding, the mother of the bride is pregnant.
At a Conservative wedding, the bride is pregnant.
At a Reform wedding, the rabbi is pregnant.



:LOL


Okay, everybody, laugh ...


:eyes

:bolt











PS - applejuice, I think about you often, am glad you're around, hope you're well ... wishing you a year of peace and nekhama and love with your children ... :)

Originally posted by captain optimism

I know that some people make a distinction between halachot (Jewish legal guidelines) that are d'rabanan (from the rabbis) and d'orisa (from the text). But I think that most observant Jews consider the rabbinic rulings to have the weight of "oral Torah." So Torah observant including oral Torah...

This reminds me of a joke from bangitout

From Top 12 Habits of Highly Modern Orthodox People

#11. You frequently use the phrase, "It's only D'Rabanan anyway". (My DH used to use this phrase a touch too much)
:D :rolleyes:

... by GranolaMommy
... This reminds me of a joke from bangitout

From Top 12 Habits of Highly Modern Orthodox People

#11. You frequently use the phrase, "It's only D'Rabanan anyway". (My DH used to use this phrase a touch too much)
:D :rolleyes:



:LOL

That's actually seriously funny because it's very true ...

:LOL

No offense meant to any m.o. mamas in the virtual room ...

:LOL

:OT

So what is "bangitout"?

Originally posted by merpk
:OT

So what is "bangitout"?

www.bangitout.com

A humor site created by a couple of YU guys (who also run the very popular NYC Tu B'Av party) Some of the stuff just isn't funny. Some is too "yeshivish" for me to understand.

Bump

... by DaryLLL
... Bump ...





:eyes

































Okay, now what?





















:)

Wow, how on Earth do I keep missing these really cool threads? :LOL


If you look at the actual observance of US Jews who i.d. with different movements, you might find that some folks who affiliate with a Reform Temple have the same observance as Jews who affiliate with an Orthodox schul. There are both aesthetic and ideological reasons to affiliate with a movement, beyond being too lazy to keep kosher, you know? For one thing, some people might be Shabbat observant but think it's immoral not to count women in a minyan. (Or the other way, drive to synagogue on Saturday but feel just too weird about women being rabbis.)


:nod Once upon a time, I thought that Reform Judaism was basically not Jewish. In retrospect, I realize that I got this impression from the Orthodox Jews I gew up around. :rolleyes: The first time I told someone at the Reform congregation that I'd been raised Orthodox, they said "Oh, so is this like walking into a church for you?" They know that that's how Reform Judaism is represented/discussed in the (local) Orthodox community. (FTR, I totally see the distinction between Orthodox and Torah-observant; that's very clear to me!) Honestly, I was surprised that there was any Hebrew at all in the Friday night service, or the Saturday morning service. At any rate, the reasons I attend/affiliate with a Reform congregation have little to do with my level of observance and much more to do with politics, logistics, etc. My mother is not remotely Torah observant but she still affiliates with an Orthodox shul; my sister isn't really observant either, but she associates with some very frum people.

About Moshiach: I definately believe that Moshiach will come one day, and I believe that it is the job of every Jew to hasten his arrival, but I haven't decided what exactly that means to me yet.

:OT Someone mentioned that the virgin birth thing is from a mistranslation of the word for "maiden"; as I recall, the word used is either "naarah" or something with the same root. It doesn't even mean "maiden", only "young woman" or something closer to "an unmarried woman of childbearing age".. basically an adolescent.

Originally posted by eilonwy
:OT Someone mentioned that the virgin birth thing is from a mistranslation of the word for "maiden"; as I recall, the word used is either "naarah" or something with the same root. It doesn't even mean "maiden", only "young woman" or something closer to "an unmarried woman of childbearing age".. basically an adolescent. [/B]

The Hebrew word is almah (maiden). It was misleadingly translated into the Greek when the whole Tanakh was trans at the order of Alexander the Great, ca 300 BCE, as parthenos (virgin).

Most English modern Xtian Bibles still tran it as virign, as it is an important proof text for Jesus' ancestry (even tho it was not meant as a proof for that when originally written, as can be seen if you read the pericope in context.)

Isaiah 7:14- Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign: The virgin [sic] will be with child and will give birth to a son, and [and he ] or [and they]] will call him Immanuel.

http://bible.gospelcom.net/cgi-bin/bible?passage=ISA%2B7%3A14&showfn=on&showxref=on&language=english&version=CEV&x=12&y=10

7.14 virgin: Or "young woman." In this context the difficult Hebrew word did not imply a virgin birth. However, in the Greek translation made about 200 (B.C. )and used by the early Christians, the word parthenos had a double meaning. While the translator took it to mean "young woman," [the author and/or editors of] Matthew understood it to mean "virgin" and quoted the passage (Matthew 1.23) because it was the appropriate description of Mary, the mother of Jesus.