I know "rules" are a hot button issue around here, but can I get some advice on how to help my son?

We have been keeping the front screen door locked so that the kids don't go out because frequently, when they do, the dog gets out. They can come and go out the back door, where they go from the kitchen to the mud porch to the outside. The dog doesn't get out.

All the kids know this, they have been reminded repeatedly, and for goodness sake, the screen door was LOCKED!

For some reason this really peeves Efram. He just UNLOCKED the front door and went out. He told me it didn't matter because the dog didn't get out this time.

Well, who cares?? The reason we are doing this is because the dog DOES get out, too frequently!!

Efram did not forget. He just doesn't like being told to go out the back door, so he decided he wouldn't.

We have a few other "rules" like this that are in place for very good reasons, such as "No playing in the cars when you're playing outside," in place because the neighbor's cat has been trapped inside twice, and "No jumping from six steps up into the landing" because we have a glass door at the bottom of the stairs (I even put a picture of a stick figure jumping with what the kids call a "skipper"--circle with line through it) on the glass.

Efram routinely jumps off the steps, and the one time I forgot to lock the car, he got right in.

Efram and I have a great relationship. He's not an angry or defiant kid. The main thing troubling him right now is his new understanding of adoption (he's come to realize that coming to us means something was left behind), so maybe he's acting out because of that, but I am concerned about this willful, deliberate defiance of our "rules."

In most other respects I am very relaxed. When I have a "rule," it's for a good reason. Maybe he doesn't really understand that reason, but ... these are safety issues. I'm not really willing to bend.

Help!

dm

I don't know but his twin sister is living at my house now. My almost 6 y.o. and I are butting head big time lately, and I don't know what to do. Every morning when we finally get out of the house to school, and every night going down for bed we find ourselves promising each other that she will do better at following instructions and I will do better at not getting frustrated with her.

So, I'll be subbing to this thread to find out who has magic answers to this.

Well, it helps to know that mine isn't the only one. Efram has always been really impulsive. When he came to us at two, he would walk by a table, look at it, and knock whatever was sitting on it off onto the floor.

If the phone rings, you'd better get out of the way or you'll get charged down in his mad dash to get it, and whatever he was doing has been dropped unceremoniously on the floor.

The other day, at the grocery store, I was talking to an acquaintance and he kept bumping the cart into me. Not hard, but I asked him to stop. He did for a minute, and then he started doing it again. Rinse and repeat. He didn't seem angry, he just could stop moving or whatever.

dm

Sorry, no advice but a huge :hug My 6yo gets like this sometimes too.

I think your DS is just testing limits. All you can really do is keep on doing what you're doing and pray that it will sink in soon.

I'm sure this isn't very AP, but I do punish my kids for breaking the rules, especially safety rules. The fact is that my kids may understand the reason behind the rule, they may agree that it's a good idea, but that doesn't mean that they will follow it. So we do have punishments as consequence.

One other thing; it works better to phrase the rule as what we do rather than what we don't. We walk down the stairs, we leave the car door shut, we go out the back, etc. It seems straightforward for an adult to reverse a "don't do X" but some kids have a real problem hearing anything but "blah do X."

My dd went threw this too. It seemed if a rule was there she wanted to break it. In my view for her, she was stretching her independence. It took some time but I repeated something to her, and then one day it stuck.

I explained that as a Mommy I had a job, and my job was to keep her safe. I explained to her that I don't want to be her boss, that I didn't make up rules just to tell her what to do, but wanted to keep her out of harms way. Also that another job as a Mommy is to teach our children about the world, so that when they grow up they will be healthy.

Often when she would protest a rule I wouldn't argue with her about it, I would simply say "What's my job" and then after awhile she would always say "To keep me safe" and that was the end of the argument.

I imagine you could use this with your son, explaining that your not just making up rules, but want to keep your pets safe.

All the kids know this, they have been reminded repeatedly, and for goodness sake, the screen door was LOCKED!

He told me it didn't matter because the dog didn't get out this time.

Well, who cares?? The reason we are doing this is because the dog DOES get out, too frequently!!

Efram did not forget. He just doesn't like being told to go out the back door, so he decided he wouldn't.

When I have a "rule," it's for a good reason. Maybe he doesn't really understand that reason, but ...

dm

I wasn't quite sure if you think he knows the reason inside out and backwards, and just won't do it, or if "doesn't really understand" fully why the rule is there. You may not be sure, either!

Can you have a sit down conversation with him? My daughter has a different personality and is very talky, but I do really find that she responds best if we have a mutual conversation about why we do things a certain way.

Would it help to explain to him what you've observed and why you're frustrated with it, then enlist his help? ("It sounds like you felt it was ok because the dog did not get out, and that you had made a decision to go out the back door in what seemed like a safe way. The reason that we don't want anyone going out the back door at all is that every time someone does, it increases the chance that the dog will get out. If no one opens the door, there is no chance at all of her getting out, and that's the safest for her. Does that make sense to you?").

Maybe you can do an activity about probability and chance - there are some things that might not happen every time a rule is broken, but you want to make sure there is NO chance of them happening. I wonder if that's what he's not getting.

I have had a conversation like that with Efram. Honestly, I think he thinks it's too much work to go out the back door when he wants to be on the front porch.

I understand that, but ... we still have to make sure that the dog does not get out the front door.

dm

If dd does something like this I take away her privelage to go on her own for the day and tell her she can try again tomorrow. I suggest you sit down with him tell him that you notice that he thinks that the rule about only using the backdoor is stupid because the dog doesn't always escape if someone uses the front door only sometimes and then ask him if this is what he is thinking when he goes out the front door. Then tell him that you don't want the dog to get out ever and tell him that if he wants to play outside he must use the backdoor and that some rules may seem stupid to him but you still expect him to follow them and tell him what the consequence will be for not following the rule. Some rules just don't make any sense to children until they are older but that doesn't mean they have to be held off on, especially when the rule protects something valuable to the family as a whole.

here is my 5 year old can't follow the already known and well established rules concerning going outside (we have our own) then she looses the ability to go outside on her 'own" for the day.

My 5 yr. old is the same way. If we have a rule, say, "Don't do X or someone could get hurt" and he does it and no one gets hurt, he doesn't think he should get in trouble. "But no one got hurt! Luka (his 2 yr. old brother) thought it was funny!" I think it's hard for them to understand that rules prevent potential consequences and that obviously, the worst won't happen every time you stand on the kitchen counter or let go of mom's hand in the parking lot. In fact, usually it'll be okay, and that's what they know and focus on.

My 5 yr. old is the same way. If we have a rule, say, "Don't do X or someone could get hurt" and he does it and no one gets hurt, he doesn't think he should get in trouble. "But no one got hurt! Luka (his 2 yr. old brother) thought it was funny!" I think it's hard for them to understand that rules prevent potential consequences and that obviously, the worst won't happen every time you stand on the kitchen counter or let go of mom's hand in the parking lot. In fact, usually it'll be okay, and that's what they know and focus on.

This is my 5yo DD!!!! She is always climbing and jumping off furniture, swinging from the top bunk railing on her bunk bed and trying to climb over the railing that looks down to the front door (a full story down) and thinks that because she didn't get hurt that one time that she never will! Some of the things she does (like the railing thing) are truly and seriously dangerous - I always pull her off the railing as soon as I see her foot go up because she won't stop otherwise. I feel like I'm banging my head on the wall trying to explain it to her sometimes!!

How is he at coming up with ideas? May be you could see if he can come up with a solution. You need the dog to stay in (we have an escapee cat BTDT) and he wnats to use the front door. What is a mutually agreeable and doable solution? This is similarto Plan B in the Expolsive Child. We have had some success with this method with both the explosive child and the others as well.

can't he just come get you when he wants out the front? can he put the dog in the back yard before going out the front? can he come ask you when he wants to play in the car so you can supervise? can you guys have fun jumping off the stairs together in some safe way?

:yeah:

I try to remind myself that you can't Plan A parent a Plan B child! Some kids do just fine with the rules (especially as you don't have many) but some kids you need to be a little more creative with. It's no so much bending the rules but finding a way that the goal is still met (dog doesn't get out, kid doesn't put car in reverse and roll away, kid doesn't go through glass door) and the kid is happy and cooperative. The way you described his deliberate defiance is pretty Plan A (I'm in charge & he needs to obey). Plan B doesn't put the child in charge (that's plan C) but it does make for a much more harmonious home.

It's perfectly normal that he thought it didn't matter that he went out the front since the dog didn't get out. After all, that's the reason behind the rule. So he may be open to finding a solution with you that you both can live with.

Plan B doesn't put the child in charge (that's plan C) but it does make for a much more harmonious home.


So can you give me an example of Plan B? Because yesterday, Efram went out the front door and let the dog out. It made no impact on him because even though I talked to him and pointed out that that's exactly why he can't go out the front door, he did it again an hour later.

can't he just come get you when he wants out the front?

Well yeah, that would be great ... if he would actually do it. But we instituted the back door rule because he WOULDN'T come ask me. The other thing is that the kids go in and out about 15 times a day and I don't really enjoy them standing at the front door yelling "Let me in! Let me in!"

Honestly, I figured that I was giving them MORE independence by letting them come and go as they please out the back door. Ramona and Desta are fine with it.

dm

I think your rule is reasonable. He may be having trouble accepting and following the rule because he only gets caught (or the dog only gets out) sometimes....so there are lots of times that he goes out the front door and only positive things happen (he gets out faster and is immediately on his way).


I would keep the rule and help him follow it everytime. I'd try--

a bell that jingles loudly when the front door is opened, immediately alerting everyone that the front door has been opened (so that you can respond immediately)

a reasonable consequence. If he goes out the front door (bell jingles, so you know each time), he must come back inside for 5 minutes and then go out the back door.

He should figure out it is quicker and easier to go out the back door the first time.

No solution really, but just another sharing of what can happen when 5-6 y.o. ignore the rules:

Play date at DD's best friend's yesterday afternoon (for Mom too, as I'm friends with the Mom). DD's friend was very clearly told that if they played outside, she was not to let the dog out of his enclosure. They have a gigantic rotweiler pup. He's still under a year, huge, strong and friendly and unpredictable, and DD is scared witless of him.

So, we're interrupted by DD screaming and crying and her friend yelling at the dog. We go tearing out there, and me with that icy burn in the middle of my chest thinking the dog has mauled my daughter.

Fortunately, she was just frightened because the dog was jumping on them. But, the friend completely ignored the rule and let the dog out. Now, these dogs can kill kids, and this rule is VERY serious. They need the dog where they live, because the Dad is frequently travelling out of the country and rottweilers scare the crap out of Costa Ricans .... but they scare the crap out of me too

Anyway, we used yesterday's incident this a.m. to reinforce with DD why moms and dads make rules. Similar to a PP. I said why do moms and dads make rules? She said to keep kids safe.

I guess all I can do is keep pounding it home at every opportunity. Someday it's got to sink in!!!

Okay I don't have the book on me so this is from memory.

You: Efram we need to come up with a solution about the dog and the door

Efram: I know the rule blah blah blah

You: Here is what I see. I have a need. My need is that the dog stay safe. You have a need. You need to go out the front door. Can we find a solution that is reasonable and doable for both of us.

From here you both brainstorm ideas. The key is not to have any preconceived ideas about what the solution is. Also when coming up with ideas they need to be something that you both agree on, but more importantly ones that are doable. Not going out the front door is not doable to him at this time. To keep enforcing it is only going to make you crazy. It won't teach him the rule. The hope is that he has an idea or solution that would work because it is soemthing that to him is doable.

When I read through a lot of the scenarios, I was skeptical, but it has worked more often than not. The most recent was an issue with hair neatness and I was totally shcoked when dd chose to wash it. Something that if I had suggested would not have been welcome but it was doable to her at that moment.

Another idea--this is the kind of thing that reward charts were made for: creating new habits.

If he isn't developmentally able to appreciate the actual benefits of using the backdoor (keeping the dog safe 100% of time), he might be more likely to follow the rule if there is a benefit he *can* appreciate after 7 days of stickers (special meal, game with mom, lollipop, etc).

Well, I discussed it with Efram.

I explained that we needed to come up with a solution that works for all of us: him, so that he doesn't feel angry about having to go out the back door; the dog, so that he stays safe; and me, so that I know that everything will be ok.

Efram's ideas: We could build a cage onto the front door so that if the dog gets out the door, he's trapped in a cage and will just come back in the house. Or, we could put a ladder at the front door so that when Efram wants to go out he could just climb up the ladder and the down the other side, but the dog can't do this since he is a dog.

I was getting really frustrated but trying not to show it. Efram was complaining about how long it takes to go out the back door and around the side of the house.

I said, "Well, what if you just climb out the window instead?"

He started laughing and said that wouldn't work. So I said, "Well, what will work then?" He said, "I could ask you to hold the dog when I go out." I said, "Ok, but what if you ask me and I can't help you right then?" He said, "I will wait for you or go out the back door."

I told him we could try that for three days and then talk about it.

Honestly, I am not holding my breath because, like I said, we started the "back door rule" because he WASN'T asking for help, even though we had talked about it.

So, we'll see.

dm

I think that was a great conversation (and am :lol at his first two ideas--what a thinker!). I'm really impressed by how it went.

The issue may not be resolved right away, but the back-door rule wasn't working either (even though I can definitely see that you made the rule to try to make things easier on everyone). At least this way it gives his mind some problem-solving practice.

I agree with sunnmama that, while way overused, reward charts can be helpful on occasion with getting into the habit of doing something. In your case, your DS going outside and in some way assuring the dog won't get out (not just that the dog happened to not get out). It could be worth suggesting to him if you are OK with the idea and see if he thinks it would help.

I asked my DS what he thought and his ideas were to build a fence around the front yard (where we live most yards, if they are fenced, are all the way fenced in, front and back yards) or that your DS let the dog out the back then go out the front door. I think he could really imagine himself in your DS' place. It didn't seem to occur to him that your DS should just go out the back door, like it or not, even though I had mentioned that you had a rule about it and that your DDs have no trouble with it.

dharma,

This is *so* my 5 yr old ds!

No great solutions from me, just a "me too!"

You will probably not see the humor but the ladder idea has kept me laughing through an expecially trying day. Keeping my fingers crossed for the three days.

Yesterday's count:

Times asked for help with the front door: 3

Times didn't ask for help with front door: 3

Times dog got out: 2

Times I was sitting on the couch right by the front door when he asked for help: 3

Times I was elsewhere in the house when he didn't ask for help: 3

Hmmm, I think I see a pattern.

This morning, he asked whether he could brush the bunny (Mishka, my love :love:love:love). I said no, because she doesn't particularly enjoy being brushed but he was welcome to sit and pet her (which she LOVES).

I went upstairs to get dressed. I came down 3 minutes later to find him brushing the bunny.

To my credit, I didn't scream or jump up and down :lol but I am sure steam was coming out of my ears.

Efram says he brushed her because "I wanted to."

Now, I actively teach my kids (or try at least) that it's not all about them want and that they need to consider how their actions will affect others, and I teach them things like, "I know you wanted to climb on me, but I asked you not to and it's my body," or "I know you wanted to put a dress on the cat, but the cat was struggling to get away and it's his body." I also realize that Efram, at 5, is a little young to really get this ...

but ...

I told him NO he could not brush the bunny!

:bang

dm

I went upstairs to get dressed. I came down 3 minutes later to find him brushing the bunny.

[snip]

Efram says he brushed her because "I wanted to."


Super frustrating, but I would expect as much from a 5 yo :wink

When dd was 6, we went through a long struggle of DO NOT PICK UP THE BABY! when mom leaves the room. She wanted to pick up the baby. I gave her supervised opportunities to hold the baby, but that isn't what she wanted. SHe wanted to pick him up like a doll baby and carry him around. I wouldn't let her do that, so she did it when I wasn't looking.

The end result was that I could not leave them together unsupervised for a couple months. It was more work for me, for sure (have to pick up baby and bring him with me when I leave the room for even a moment), but it removed the irresistable temptation.

Can you hear him open the door when you aren't in the room?

So I said, "Well, what will work then?" He said, "I could ask you to hold the dog when I go out." I said, "Ok, but what if you ask me and I can't help you right then?" He said, "I will wait for you or go out the back door."

I told him we could try that for three days and then talk about it.

Honestly, I am not holding my breath because, like I said, we started the "back door rule" because he WASN'T asking for help, even though we had talked about it.

My first thought when I read this was that he didn't want to ask for help *going outside* but that he felt just fine asking you to hold the dog so he could get himself outside. Even though it seems like a small distinction to us, it could be a big one to a kid.

Could he be going through a good kid phase? I know my oldest is a really easy kid. However through her life she has phases of just terrible behavior. She is the oldest of four and often gets the short end of the stick in regards to attention. I've read many posts about your other two but very few about Effram. Maybe he is looking for some attention.


I am by no means saying you are not giving him enough attention. Just thinking out loud.

I've read many posts about your other two but very few about Effram. Maybe he is looking for some attention.


Possibly, yes. I know that he seems to be going through an "it's not fair" phase right now where whatever he gets he deems inferior to what Ramona has gotten. For example, if I ask each kid what they want to drink with their lunch and Efram says A and Ramona says B, Efram gets very upset when he notices that Ramona has something different. It's not made easier by the fact that Ramona is in a "don't copy me!" phase and is trying to assert her independence from Efram.

Desta is at school all day but I homeschool E&R, snd I am really making an effort to make sure each kid gets their "own" activity, time with me, interest, play time, etc.

I think that Efram is struggling to find his place in the family right now. Officially he is the youngest but in reality he is probably the middle child, and I know he has been struggling with adoption issues recently.

dm