What do you tell your "mainstream" friends?

[JSMa]

I showed my list of questions for my midwife to one of my friends. She immediately sort of jumped at me saying I can't plan a pregnancy and that things happen and sometimes c-sections and episiotimies are unavoidable and I should just get over it. :eyesroll

She said when she went to her class or whatever there were 20 couples there and the nurse told them straight out that a quarter of them were going to end up with c-sections because things happen and that would be what's best for the baby and mother....

I just don't beleive it. :angry IT'S MY BODY and I don't want to be carved up like a holiday turkey. :angry

I know there is no such thing as a perfect pregnancy... but don't I have a right to find out all the precautions taken to try to have the kind of birth I would like to have?? I just don't understand why everyone just nods like little dolls to all these extra procedures and things so invasive like c-sections and episitomies. :(

[kriket]

Just dropping by not PG

Have your mainstream friends met you!? I know that no matter what kind of granola I whip up my friends always kinda expect it. I could tell them that I was planning on giving birth in a tree with a wolf as a midwife and I honestly think they wouldn't be suprized. :D
Whenever people make blanket statements like 1/4 of you will have this or that done. I always think to myself, "Glad I'm not in that 1/4"
just my :2cents:

[A Mothers Love]

Jenifer, yes things "can" happen, but it does not mean that they will.
Plan your pregnancy the way you want it. There is a very good chance it will turn out the way you want...maybe even better than you expect.

[JSMa]

Yeah she has met me... The funny thing... and even she has commented on this. She is sort of a hippy/earthy person. And even her friends were surprised how technoclogical she went with her delivery. She said it happened because her Mom is a nurse.

Still has me rather irritated though. She said it's too far away to worry about now anyway...

I'm not worrying over anything, just getting my consultation questions in order for my appointment with my midwife in a week. Geez....

[kJad29]

Unfortunately, your friend is very convinced that everyone across the board is in the statistic. Her mother is a nurse, but I'm sure that she doesn't know squat about natural normal childbirth because she either hasn't seen it or has only worked in hospital with all their bells, whistles, and interventions. Then she went to your friend and told her everything. Now she's scared of birth in a way and just wants to pass the fear on to you. If you go with a midwife, have a doula, prepare mentally and physically for your birth, more than likely you won't have any problems. If you go to an OB you have anywhere depending on the OB and the hospital of a 1 in 3 to 3 in 4 chance of getting a c-section. That's Russian roulet.

You can be happy that at least you're doing what you feel is best for your pregnancy to work towards the best outcome possible rather than just blankly taking any care provider's word for it and handing over your power and decisions to another person. At least you have more of a fighting chance with a midwife that she'll listen to you and respect your decisions.

[SamsMuffin]

Tell your friend that the c-section rate of 30% or 1 in 3 moms is not normal. And it's not healthy. A rate that high is evidence of many unnecessary c-sections being done due to the intervention domino effect.

A healthy and normal rate would be more like 10% (according to the Coalition for Improving Maternity Services - CIMS). If the Farm can have a rate of 1.4%, then the 30% rate of hospitals is truly ridiculous.

Our futures are not determined by statistics. We should be trying to change them instead of saying, "Oh, well. Just accept it and get over it."

[SuperSarah11]

I think in your case I would tell my friend to shut up! :p Seriously, though, she sounds defensive about the whole thing and might feel like your more natural plans are a reflection on how you feel about how she did things... just a thought!

[Ligeia]

When my mainstream friends ask about my choices, I just tell them exactly why I chose to do things this way. It's nice to just open their eyes a little, even if they're not going to go with those choices themselves and they definitely have more respect for me than they did when I was just a crazy hippy birthing at home without reason.

[superflippy]

she sounds defensive about the whole thing and might feel like your more natural plans are a reflection on how you feel about how she did things... just a thought!

I agree. If the subject comes up again, maybe just let her know that this is just the way you want to do things and not a judgment against women who do things differently.

Also, since you say your friend is more the hippie type, is it possible your friend has regrets about her medicalized birth and wishes now she'd been able to do it differently? That could make her feel like digging in and trying to justify the way her child's birth went. Maybe ask her - non-judgmentally, just as a fun hypothetical question - how she'd do it if she was going to give birth today.

[mommathea]

To me, everyting needs a plan. If you don't have a plan you are already setting yourself up for failure.
I would ask my friend if she thinks that the dr has a game plan, list of things to do in certain situations, ect.
If your dr can have one, why not you?

[thismommy]

I think you are RIGHT ON for asking a TON of questions right off the bat. At my 6w appt with dd, the RN was astounded at all my questions (I'd had a disappointing over-medicalized hospital birth with ds because I didn't ask enough question or stand my ground) and said I was her most-knowledgeable patient ever. I was honored and disgusted at all once, because I don't think many women spend nearly as much time learning about the workings of their body and the baby's as they do in picking out nursery themes. :Puke

Oh yeah, you MUST go get the book "Active Birth" by Janet Balaskas. Its AMAZING!

[Klynne]

I showed my list of questions for my midwife to one of my friends. She immediately sort of jumped at me saying I can't plan a pregnancy and that things happen and sometimes c-sections and episiotimies are unavoidable and I should just get over it. :eyesroll

She said when she went to her class or whatever there were 20 couples there and the nurse told them straight out that a quarter of them were going to end up with c-sections because things happen and that would be what's best for the baby and mother....

I just don't beleive it. :angry IT'S MY BODY and I don't want to be carved up like a holiday turkey. :angry

I know there is no such thing as a perfect pregnancy... but don't I have a right to find out all the precautions taken to try to have the kind of birth I would like to have?? I just don't understand why everyone just nods like little dolls to all these extra procedures and things so invasive like c-sections and episitomies. :(

yes,yes,yes!
and they nod like doll because we are conditioned from a young age not question medical "experts", after all, what do we know? :eyesroll


I believe there is such a thing as a perfect pregnancy. And why would one want to assume their pregnancy would have complications or not be perfect??

"Whenever people make blanket statements like 1/4 of you will have this or that done. I always think to myself, "Glad I'm not in that 1/4" "
I so agree with this!!


you friend just sounds very defensive. we all support you!

[Klynne]

I was honored and disgusted at all once, because I don't think many women spend nearly as much time learning about the workings of their body and the baby's as they do in picking out nursery themes. :Puke

I think you're right on here.

[elfinbaby]

First, it sounds like your friend is more defensive than anything. Pregnancy and birth are touchy subjects for women and there seems to be a battle waging in the minds of some over doing it "right" or "best" etc. I don't participate in the bickering - not that that's what happened in your conversation. I just remind myself that we're all coming from different places/experiences and I am really sad for the women who are uninformed or choose to remain ignorant of the possibilities of having a completely uncomplicated preg./birth w/o being up to your ears in medical lingo/tests/whatever. I find it tragic so I try to let alot of remarks go.

For instance, I've only had hbs. I met a woman last week who's story was completely different. She made no apologies that she got an epi at 2 cm. b/c she wanted to feel absolutely nothing. A stubbed toe hurts her so she reasoned she should be medicated from the start. I'm not going to try and convince someone like that they an unmedicated birth is best for the baby and mother! It's her choice. But, at this point in my life, I've determined that our society, her influences/experiences have taught her that she isn't capable of handling the experience of birthing w/o interventions. Like I said, sad. I know that everybody can and should do their own thing but I feel very strongly that giving birth w/o unnecessary interferences is our birthright. I feel like our sex has been robbed of this innate wisdom and gift and, for most, we don't even know it.

So - I don't have many mainstream friends. It's not intentional - it's just that I run in alternative circles - hsing, hbing, etc. When I do encounter mainstreamers, I am open about my choices should they come up. I rarely, rarely try and educate anyone but when I get the "OMG! HOW do you DO it at HOME? You must have a high pain threshold What if the cord was wrapped around the baby's neck?!?!" and all that bologna, I simply tell them that hb is not what they think. I'm not a risk taker, I'm not particularly brave, actually I'm terrified of needles and hospitals. The idea of having a needle stuck in my back close to my spine is too risky for me. I let them know that I really couldn't do what they do - I couldn't go into a hospital and be calm, relaxed. I don't like people I don't know poking and prodding me or annoying me when I'm trying to focus. And there's no way I'd let someone tell me what to do during birthing. I also tend to give birth on my hands and knees - my body demands it. #1 I wouldn't be allowed to do that in a hospital #2 Giving birth in any other position, particularly that 1/2 leaning position in stirrups would be absolutely excruciating. So really I'm secretly a big fat chicken b/c I'd rather hole up at home and have my babies:) I'm so glad the hbs have a proven safety record b/c I'd be a mess in the hospital.

[sapphire_chan]

She said when she went to her class or whatever there were 20 couples there and the nurse told them straight out that a quarter of them were going to end up with c-sections because things happen and that would be what's best for the baby and mother....
"Well if you're content to be in that 25% that's your business, but I'd rather do what I can to be in the 75% who have no problems. Just as I'm planning to be in the 90% of women who birth at home with no problems, even though I know what I'll do if I am in the 10% who need to transfer. Plus, if I prepare and things go wrong I'll know I tried my best and I earned the right to complain about what happened. But you know what? 90% of the women who try to give birth at home do so with no problems. And of the 10% who transfer, only one tenth, that's 1% of women who plan homebirths, only 1% end up with c-sections. Seems to me that I'm already out of that 25% number just by staying away from hospitals with nurses who assume that birth will be an emergency."

And that's how I'd make sure I don't have any more mainstream friends if I had mainstream friends with no grasp of statistical analysis.

[mchalehm]

I don't say anything. If she is genuinely curious about my plans, I'll share them, sure. If she started to criticize those plans, I would just say, "That's my plan. I don't really want to discuss it further. I'm happy to give you more info, but not if you question my decisions." That's it. I don't discuss my choices with people who are going to try to undermine me; my energy is too precious during pregnancy!

[Liea]

Bottom Line: You Have To Be Your OWN Advocate.

No one is going to do it for you. You're making informed choices and while your friends might not choose the same things, they should respect you in those decisions you're making even though they may not agree.

Many women don't want to research and make a choice when it comes to pregnancy and birth. They trust the doctor and rely on him/her to tell them what to do. I speculate that in the course of a doctor's career, they've tried to present more choices to women, but many women just want to be told what is best... they don't want to choose something that might end up being "wrong". If the doctor chooses for you then it's their fault if you don't like the outcome.

Kudos to you for being YOU and making a choice.

[JSMa]

Wow! Awesome conversation everyone! Thank you! :D

I think a lot of you may have hit it... She isn't as much of a researcher as me... maybe she does have doubts about what she chose? She did tell me her's almost ended in C-Section and she just cried, and luckily it didn't go that route.

It just seems docs are so quick to jump on doing a c-section the second they see ANYTHING. It just doesn't make sense in my mind as people have been having babies for CENTURIES without all this medical BS. :p


I'm used to rsearching a TON and being a very involved patient due to having fibromyalgia. Most docs won't even take you seriously unless you walk in with a ton of notes on your symptoms and history and what not. I also know if I had not researched it I may have never even been diagnosed and still being blown off. :p I KNOW when something is up with my body.

I'm not worried about the pain so much... I've endured a lot with the years of fibromyalgia, pain is no stranger to me, and I learned how to ride it out well. lol

Thank you everyone for the support. I'm confident in my plan, and I think my positive feelings on the natural birth will guide me well.

[paquerette]

I think I would probably avoid talking about birth with people who can't be supportive. :o While I think it's good to try to inform people who are uninformed, you also have to worry about protecting your own emotional space, kwim? :)

What part of eastern PA? :loveeyes: If you're in the north, please join our birthy group!

[apelilae]

I've only had one question me (I guess I don't have mainstream friends) with the c-birth thing you mentioned. I told her statistically, it should be closer to 7-8% NOT 30% as it is in too many hospitals, so the fact that it's better for the baby is bull, and that most of the time it's the diagnostic tools that mandate the c-birth, not the actual mother or baby and how those same tools have never, ever been shown to improve outcomes. She shut up fast.

If it wasn't a close friend, as in my situation, I say "You may have been told that, but I am convinced otherwise. I'd be happy to share some research I've done." then politely ask them not to say anything like that to me in the future as I need to maintain positive energy and outlook on my birth.

[DiannaK]

When my mainstream friends ask about my choices, I just tell them exactly why I chose to do things this way. It's nice to just open their eyes a little, even if they're not going to go with those choices themselves and they definitely have more respect for me than they did when I was just a crazy hippy birthing at home without reason.


I agree completely. My answer to everyone is "I'm doing what's best for me and my family", and walk away.:thumb

[MKury]

While I don't have a ton of mainstream friends, I did have some girls ask whether I was planning on getting "my epidural" right from the start, or wait for a little bit. I just said, "I'm planning on going natural." They looked at me like I was nuts and then pointed me to a girl who had had her first baby at home. I talked to her and we've been great friends ever since.

With this new pregnancy, everyone knows I had a homebirth, but they are more curious than anything. They have questions and I share with them my feelings and take it as an opportunity to inform them about the dangers of medical intervention. When one gets defensive and says that their baby would have died, etc without the c-s, pit, epi, etc. I acknowledge her feelings and stop. But what I have realized is that a woman will justify every decision that was made FOR her in the hospital as a defense mechanism, because deep down she was terrified of the entire experience and it got completely out of her hands. And the ultimate defense is, "My baby would have DIED without it." So, what do you say? I say, "I'm glad you were in the hospital" or "I'm so glad we have OBs for that situation." I've had girls tell me that their babies were posterior and that's why they had to have a c-s. Really? I just nod and go on.

As for criticism of the way I have chosen to do things, I offer the nay-sayers all of the research that I have done- books, papers, journals, stats, etc and let them know that when they get finished with all of that, they are free to have a debate... until then... I really don't have too many confrontations anymore! :D

[JSMa]

I hear you about the epidural. That part is driving me nuts... Everyone in my family just laughs at me and says I will change my mind once I feel the first pains... do they really think I am that weak? Makes me so mad.

DP is with them... his ex had an epidural and he was told that it's for the safety of the baby because the more pain you are in the more stress on the baby. :eyesroll

Does anyone have some good information handy that I can share with my DP? I really need him to stand behind me on this.

I just keep saying women were built to birth babies and have done it for centuries before all this technology BS... I have no doubts in my strength to handle this.

[~Megan~]

I don't have mainstream friends any more. The few old friends I keep in contact with (and family as they tend to be more mainstream) knew about my convictions and desires long ago. It just came up in conversation. I try to state my opinion without putting theirs down. I use a lot of "I feel" language. I'm quite able to defend my position with facts and statistics if it comes to that though.

[tjjazzy]

I've had girls tell me that their babies were posterior and that's why they had to have a c-s. Really? I just nod and go on.

:D

what?! they just turned my son (he was posterior)! my sister had a natural birth with a breech baby.

[rightkindofme]

I'm fairly harsh, but when people argue with me when I don't want to be argued with I tend to tell them, "You are entitled to any wrong opinion you want to have." It ends the conversation. I tend to not say this until after I have brought out some statistical evidence and stated why I have my opinion.

[SamsMuffin]

DP is with them... his ex had an epidural and he was told that it's for the safety of the baby because the more pain you are in the more stress on the baby. :eyesroll

Does anyone have some good information handy that I can share with my DP? I really need him to stand behind me on this.


You can tell him he has his info backwards. Even though an epidural might relax you, it might stall you also. Which means pitocin. And pitocin puts MUCH more stress on a baby than natural contractions.

You feeling pain is not going to make it any worse for the baby. If you tense up because of the pain, it could make it worse for you. But not for the baby. At least not that I'm aware of :D Babies only feel squeezed. But the squeezing is a good thing - it works all the amniotic fluid out of their lungs.

Here are some interesting epidural facts found in Ina May's Guide to Childbirth:

- Epidurals can cause a dramatic drop in blood pressure, putting both mother and baby at risk. This can cause plummeting heart rates in both mom and baby.

- Epidurals can cause a high fever in one out of five women, which puts the baby at risk for sepsis.

- A two percent chance risk of a punctured lumbar (puncturing the membrane around the spinal cord). This will cause a severe headache that can last for days or weeks.

- Can slow down labor if given too early.

- More likely to result in c-section than natural birth.

- More likely to result in forceps or vacuum-extractor delivery than natural birth.

- Epidural site can become infected.

- Babies can end up having breathing difficulties and a difficult time breastfeeding.

- A one in five thousand chance of maternal death or permanent paralysis.

[lifeguard]

Great points Samsmuffin. I would also add to have your DP watch the documentary "The Business of Being Born" - it has a fair bit on this including the a description of the whole epi/pitocin chain reaction to a c-section.

As to the original question of what to say. I say nothing. I ONLY discuss my birth plans with my mother, my husband & my one friend who is of the same frame of mind with me. Most of my friends are ahead of me in having their children & after one conversation a few years ago I vowed I would just avoid the conversations altogether.

There was about 6 women sitting around the table. The one who was about 7 months pregnant expressed that she was thinking about not having pain relief. Well, the others jumped all over "Are you crazy?" "Don't be stupid." "Why put yourself through that?" etc, etc. I felt so badly for her & could tell there was nothing that could be said or done that would change those women's minds.

I called her myself the next day & to apologize for not piping up & to offer my support saying I knew she could do it if she knew she could do it.

I just don't understand why we can't spend more time supporting each other than breaking each other down?

[tjjazzy]

I just don't understand why we can't spend more time supporting each other than breaking each other down?

that question plagues me often.

[barefootpoetry]

I don't say anything. I have enough worries of my own right now, I don't need other people's added on to that. If they ask me after the birth how it went, I'll be more than happy to tell them, because chances are the crazy comments won't hold much water when I'm standing there holding a baby that HELLO, obviously came out drug-free, at home even! And plus, I won't be in that vulnerable situation anymore of needing to defend/protect myself and my choices...because I already did them!

[avivaelona]

I've had two epidurals, I'm not going to question someone who says they need one as a result...in both the situations I had it I did need it for what was going on at the time.

One thing that is never on the lists though of problems caused by epidurals is that afterwards there often is some back pain that takes a while to heal. It eventually went away both times, but it made the early sessions of nursing my son more difficult. We were fine anyway and had a good nursing relationship, but if I didn't need it I wouldn't throw that additional wrench into the time you are going to need to spend healing after birth. It definitely slowed my recovery somewhat, and while it might be a less common side effect I had it both times so it can't be that uncommon.

[JSMa]

Thank you SamsMuffin! Great bullet points! I saved them to Word and am making a list of things to give DP to read. I saw the video "Business of Being Born" but didn't have the sound on as I was at work... need to look that up at home. *nods*

Avivaelona, thank you for letting me know that! That is a big concern to me as I have fibromyalgia and have four tender points in my back... I just know anything invasive like that will likely throw me into a flare... Very good to know. I shall add that to my list.

[AAK]

I just go with the "I believe in the power of positive thinking" route.

Amy

[JustVanessa]

Another good book is Pushed....really shines a light on the American medical system and birth.


As for an epidural there are lots of possible side effects they don't tell you about. I vomited for 8 hrs after ds was born and the only memory I have is puking on him. Fun stuff. I tell that story to everyone who tells me how fantastic epidurals are.

[thefragile7393]

I really don't have any mainstream friends per se...family, acquaintences. I don't discuss things with anyone unless they ask....a rule that goes across the board.

[_betsy_]

I tend not to discuss these things with non-like-minded people, but my mainstream, "whatever-the-OB-says-is-TRUE!" SIL seems to want to discuss all the choices I made versus the choices she made (or were made for us, whatever). She gets quite defensive, and eventually I change the subject with a "We both did what we felt was best for our babies and ourselves. Can you pass the cornbread?" Yet she still seems to want to talk about it all. I have given her book titles, let her borrow the books I have, etc., but she doesn't seem interested in actually researching it. I just don't know why she keeps bringing it up. I guess she's trying to make peace with it all.

[~*~MamaJava~*~]

I will volunteer some info if asked...i feel the need to speak up occasionally when i hear really inaccurate info (once a c-sec, always a c-sec, or that inductions are no big deal, or that 'my dr will only let me' anything phrase). but i am the local wingnut, so it's expected from me.

you keep believing in yourself, you are absolutely on the right track. you can have your baby naturally, no epi needed, and you just do it your way :thumb sometimes you have to fight for your rights but it is worth it.

[abharrington]

I guess she's trying to make peace with it all.

i think this and guilt are behind a lot of the comments. and ignorance as well. childbirth and childrearing are very central and dear to a womans heart and when my choices are different from yours, and i have strong convictions and evidenced based information to substantiate my convictions, it can easily make the other person feel like they made an inferior choice for their child.

i have found often those kinds of questions are rewarded when i reveal the slighest hint of doubt or defensiveness. i always answer camly, slowely, even non - chalantly, with a big smile and all the confidence in the world. like when my "all-knowing" SIL asked if we always wear the baby down to sleep, i said no. and when she said so you usually just put her in her crib and let her go to sleep on her own, i said no. and when she said so what do you do, i said well sometimes i just go to sleep when she does or i lay down with her for a while or i let her nurse to sleep. which of course begs the question, where is she sleeping, BUT i never provide more than teh answer to teh question. i make her work for it. and when she said so she sleeps in your bed???? i said, oh yea. :)

anyhow...so sorry your friends made you feel bad...hugs mama!! and what a gift to you lo to be concerned about their birth and plan accordingly. especially in our culture and age, time is the most prescious gift you can give another. don't let anyone take that away from you!!

the csec rate is about 35% in the US, i think, overall. its funny bc many women will say thats too high, even women who have had one or more...but they ALL believe theirs to be in the small minority that actually saved their or their babies life. ha.

[rachel616]

the csec rate is about 35% in the US, i think, overall. its funny bc many women will say thats too high, even women who have had one or more...but they ALL believe theirs to be in the small minority that actually saved their or their babies life. ha.

Of course women tell themselves it was necessary to save their or their babies' lives - otherwise they might (but not always) think they "failed" at normal birth and submitted to unnecessary and invasive surgery. They also frequently seem to be uneducated in general about WHY they were sectioned and what their options were, if any. I was an "emergency" c-section, and every time I ask my Mom about it, I get a lot of vague answers and some time-line discrepancies and no clear reason except that I was "in distress". She probably doesn't truly know what happened with me, but calling it an emergency (whether it was or wasn't - we'll never know for sure) makes it okay.

I really feel bad for the mamas who have to go through that (both the section and the guilt/rationalizing) because they're stuck in a system that refuses to respect and acknowledge women's rights and choices and their bodies' abilities to birth without intervention most of the time. :( It's sad.

[narcheska]

Good for you for sticking to your plan!! My midwife said the exact same thing, that 2 out of the 8 will have a c-section. It turns out that 6 out the 8 had c-sections. BAD BAD BAD. I have to say that the mothers were so unprepared for the birth, which is so sad - not their fault at all. I am not having a go at people who genuinely need to have a c-section, but I feel that if the midwives prepared the mothers more for birth- birthing options ie hypnobirthing - their would be less need for c-sections.

In my birth plan I was very clear on my preferences on what to do if a c-section was required, ie keep me informed at all times during transfer to hospital, husband to be by side, no way in hell do i want to see them cut me open... My friend gave me the idea as she did the same in her birth plan, had to have emergency c-section and the staff all read her birth plan in the op room before they began, put the nice music on, and off they went. She said despite having to have the emergency c-section, it was a nice birth after all.

So plan away!

[narcheska]

Oh and I have to add that in my antenatal class we watched a movie that said the best pain option was an epidural!! I was so outraged!!! What the hell are medical staff telling mothers these days!! So wrong!!

[Mama_2_Boy]

Ya when people found out I had a midwife they asked me "well when you getting a real doctor?" and then when I told everyone I was having a home birth...well they just went ape shit on me! I was accused of being incredibly selfish because by golly we all know that pregnancy is a "medical condition" and that it is cause for alarm when you go into labour. Sheesh. It only got worse when the whole immunization topic came up....I am very careful now who I tell my business too.

When I asked my midwife why the hospitals/doctors push drugs, she flat out told me "because your situation is going to be made as easy as possible in order for them to do THEIR job"...ya know, like having to lay on my back while pushing? I have to admit, I was kinda surprised with all I learned. I wish more women would get a mid wife.

[JSMa]

narcheska! What a great idea! It never occured to me to have an emergency birth plan! soothing music would totally be needed if something like that had to happen. I need to note that! lol

[A_Random_Phrase]

She said when she went to her class or whatever there were 20 couples there and the nurse told them straight out that a quarter of them were going to end up with c-sections because things happen and that would be what's best for the baby and mother....

Well, if you put the thought into their minds ... (Self-fulfilling prophecy). Fear is a pretty good cause of problems. You were so right to start this thread so you could get out of your friend's "space."

As far as painkillers, I have heard many times that water is the best pain killer. That is probably why water births are so popular.

It can be a slap in the face, so to speak, to hand a list of questions to a friend and they attack you. I would suppose she is still wounded from her experiences. I was convinced that the c-section I had with my first had saved my baby's life. It was only recently that I realized that if I had not told my spouse I was in labor, had gotten the bath I wanted (neither he nor the midwife wanted me to take a bath even though my water had not broken - and I, obedient little wuss that I was at that time in my life, obeyed.), and if I had just dealt with the thing on my own for a while she probably would have been born at home (in the water, if they'd left me alone), even though she was butt first. But it took a bit of internal work (via Birthing From Within) to realize the truth of my situation.