Suzuki Mamas Tribe

[insahmniak]

There seems to be interest in a Suzuki music method tribe, so here's a place to ask questions and offer support. Here's a link (http://www.mothering.com/discussions/showthread.php?p=11195381#post11195381) to the old thread.

As for us, my only DD will be five next month and has been playing violin since 3.5. She just gave a couple of neighborhood concerts tonight - part of an assignment from her teacher. It was harder on her than I anticipated, particularly announcing the pieces she was going to play. When I was young and played I don't ever remember being nervous at all - not one iota - and I attributed it to starting young and assumed that the same would be true for her. Not so. I'm assuming that the more she does it the easier it will get, so I'm trying to think of more informal opportunities for her to play. For example, we took her violin out to an organic farm this weekend and she played for the chickens, and of course then the farm staff was begging for more. I hope things like this will help. If anyone has any insights to share I'm all ears. Oh, and she had no accompanist - so perhaps the whole totally solo aspect may have been what tipped her over the edge. She was completely exposed. I'm no pianist but I could pretty easily plunk out the melody or some chords for her. Any thoughts about violins performing without accompaniment?

As reluctant as she was she played beautifully today. :love We tried the hint about the honey on the bow and that seemed to make a huge difference, Miranda. Thank you. Her tone is nearly as big as it can be on the little violin.

BTW DD also started piano last month and she's giving a twinkles graduation on Friday. So between the two, I'm hoping the performance jitters will soon be easier to handle. But again, any advice is certainly welcome. I'm flying blindly on this issue.

[insahmniak]

nkm1968 -

Although they would both quit if were an option at my house; it isn't, although we aren't mean about it, we have explained to both of them that it is good for their brains, we send them to schools with little to no homework, so giving back to us 15 to 20 minutes per night is a reasonable request.

I wanted to respond to your post, nkm, because I've often wondered how much of an "option" music lessons would be for my own DD. It's interesting to me that it's not an option for you. That's the way it was for me, growing up, and I SWORE I'd NEVER do that to my own. And yet.....:o I don't know what I'd do, now, if she started to complain. Of course we're still very much honeymooning with it. But I'm sure the time will come when I'm faced with this.

I thank my mom on a fairly regular basis, now, for not letting me quit....just like she said I would. :love (I took private lessons for 12 years, starting age 4) It's an interesting issue for me and I'm fascinated with different approaches. I have no idea, at this point, what I would do.

By the way, congratulations on finding a teacher you're happy with. It sounds like good things are happening with the change.

[nkm1968]

Well, they have not really protested that loudly or strenuously, so it hasn't really interfered with our overall relationships! So, I don't feel that bad for forcing them at times to practice, because it's not like some of the kids I've seen at Suzuki groups who look murderously angry about being there!

And they are also pretty used to doing other things they don't want to do or love to do, like pick up dog doo from the yard (hey, nobody wants to do that!), help with cleaning the house, or, for my adolescent, to HAVE to visit with her great grandfather and myself and our almost 7 year old EVERY Friday night , from about 5:30 pm till before 8pm, where we cook dinner and have a nice relaxed meal, and even sometimes they play their fiddles for him. She understands that we are on borrowed time to enjoy a relationship with him, and so she minimizes the grief if she would rather glam out for an hour before a mixer at school (she does glam out at his house, and I drop her off after school, haha).

So in the scheme of things that kids in my house have to do, practicing music is high on our list. Getting straight A's or getting into an Ivy League College aren't even on the list. Other folks have different rules which I respect but do not enforce at my house. For instance, I was forced to attend Catholic mass every week, and I am an atheist and have been since age 13, yet I attended with little protest out of respect for my parents who also had a limited list of what me and my brothers HAD to do.

On the bright side, 15 year old DD1 just started playing guitar and has been able to play by ear and fairly effortlessly compared to other beginners, and she and her guitar teacher (NOT Suzuki) have both commented it is probably because of great ear-training on the fiddle!!

Sometimes girl, moms just can't all the way win. I'll take a partial any way I can.

[Bird Girl]

I could've written that. My DD told me, in a neutral tone of voice, that she wanted to quit violin; I responded that I was sorry, she may, in fact feel that way, but at our house, you must practice your instrument. She accepted this with only the complaint that her two-year-old brother didn't have to: she was mollified when I assured her that he would have to, also.

I can't make them cook dinner. I can't make them do laundry. Yet I can give them important, meaningful work even when they are young. And the fact is that making music is so much more joyful a task than any of the bloody things I have to do as an adult, that I don't feel too bad about cracking the whip.

It helps properly wire their brains. It teaches them how to work hard. It gives them a gift when they reach adulthood. It's worth it, no matter that they will go through times when they don't see that. We are the adults. We have the foresight.

[ShanaT]

I'm so glad to see the tribe here. My 4 yr old DS started violin 2 months ago. We're having fun so far. The honeymoon wore off when he started trying to play "run pony stop pony" but his enthusiasm came back when he "got it." Since it was his idea to play violin (we spent a month trying to talk him out of it), he's bewildered that I insist that he play violin everyday, but we're having pretty good results using game pieces and playing around the house and things like that. The internet video phone with his grandparents has been a big help too.
I'm encouraged to hear that Suzuki kids are learning to play fiddle tunes too. I think the source of his interest in violin is the bluegrass festival we went to last summer, but he doesn't make any distinction between styles of music yet, so as far as he's concerned Twinkle Twinkle is a fine fiddle tune.
I have a 2 yr old DS who wants to play too, but I've explained that he's not old enough so he's happily played with the toys in the play area during his brother's group lesson. This week there was a 2 yr old girl in the class and my DS2 wouldn't leave the room. "Where's MY biolin?" he demands. :)

[moominmamma]

Hi, thanks for starting this tribe!

I'm Miranda, raised a Suzuki kid myself back in the 1970's, daughter of a Suzuki violin teacher trainer, part-time Suzuki teacher and sibling to two full-time Suzuki teachers. I have four kids.

Erin (14) began Suzuki violin at age 4. She finished the first 8 Suzuki books around her 11th birthday and this year has moved on to a Suzuki-friendly advanced teacher who unfortunately lives 8 hours from us, so we make monthly treks for lessons and it's nowhere near ideal but I can't see any other way that would be better. She lives for music, this girl, and is also an advanced pianist (non-Suzuki trained) and talented soprano. She's got five weeks of intensive music lined up for the summer and would be happier if it were 10 weeks!

Noah (11) began Suzuki lessons at age 5 and switched from violin to viola at around age 8. He is working in the middle of viola Book 6 and has come into his own this year as a solo performer and a chamber musician. He loves being a violist and is very much in demand these days as a chamber player.

Sophie (9) began violin at about 4.5. She's progressed well and has just begun Book 6. She is struggling with some posture and technique issues in her bowing, as well as with the 'success' and acclaim her siblings are all getting. "Middle Suzuki Child Syndrome" I guess. She's really sweet and will come into her own soon, I think, but I do feel for her. She practices entirely independently, and has for a year or two, due to perfectionistic meltdowns that occur when she lets me watch. So that makes it much tougher for her to progress and get a handle on remediative stuff.

Fiona (newly 5) began violin at not-quite-3, because no one seemed to be able to convince her she should wait. She's progressing solidly through book 3 and is reading, shifting and working well on beginning vibrato. She's tiny and is a showstopper when she performs. She's also the only one of my kids who isn't a perfectionist, who enjoys practicing, who can make a mistake and move on.

Looking forward to participating here!

Miranda

[nkm1968]

Hey I have a Fiona too! DD2, almost 7!

We chose her name after DH and I fell in love with the Fiona charachter from "The Secret of Roan Inish"

[nkm1968]

I'm so glad to see the tribe here. My 4 yr old DS started violin 2 months ago. We're having fun so far. The honeymoon wore off when he started trying to play "run pony stop pony" but his enthusiasm came back when he "got it." Since it was his idea to play violin (we spent a month trying to talk him out of it), he's bewildered that I insist that he play violin everyday, but we're having pretty good results using game pieces and playing around the house and things like that. The internet video phone with his grandparents has been a big help too.
I'm encouraged to hear that Suzuki kids are learning to play fiddle tunes too. I think the source of his interest in violin is the bluegrass festival we went to last summer, but he doesn't make any distinction between styles of music yet, so as far as he's concerned Twinkle Twinkle is a fine fiddle tune.
I have a 2 yr old DS who wants to play too, but I've explained that he's not old enough so he's happily played with the toys in the play area during his brother's group lesson. This week there was a 2 yr old girl in the class and my DS2 wouldn't leave the room. "Where's MY biolin?" he demands. :)

Get that kid a "biolin"! I'd send you our old 1/16th but DD2 has it plastered with mermaid stickers, so I am making it into a wall installation box with other "mementos" from her being 4.

[Ofwait]

Hehe, sorry, my first thought was motorcycles. :P

Are you covering any of the other instruments that are taught Suzuki method?

[megincl]

Subscribing! So glad to find this thread. I've got a just newly 5 yo DS who started Suzuki cello in the fall. Lots of ups and downs, but mostly ups. More to come!

megin

[nkm1968]

Hey guys, check out the Suzuki piece gone raver!
DD1 is a fan of a band called the Gorillaz, and on their fist self-titled album, there is a piece called "Left Hand Suzuki Method" that is hilarious!

I found it outside her CD on YouTube, just search Gorillaz Left Hand Suzuki

[Stacymom]

:wave

I'm Stacy, a suzuki mom and a suzuki violin and viola teacher. (Hi Miranda!)

My six year old is playing violin as well, and she's just starting book 3. I thought the last two minuets in bk 2 were going to kill us, but we made it!

I am amzed at how much harder it is to be the parent than the teacher. DD and I have a fire-y relationship anyway, and sometimes the practice sessions can get pretty intense! But she has good focus, a good tone, is improving some of the bowing things we've been working on for months (finally!) and her vibrato is absolutely gorgeous. We're headed to Institute in a few weeks, and that's a huge motivator for both of us!

Fun, fun. Its always so good to talk with like minded people!

[insahmniak]

Fiery Mother-Daughter relationship? :raises hand: We've got one of those here, too. It a constant challenge for me to take the challenge out of the learning experience, break it down to manageable steps and remember to take it to FunLand. I'm pretty sure the days of rolling marbles down the piano bookstand and into the cup are going to come to an end soon enough. And frankly I'm not sure where to go from there. I actually remember the challenge of learning vibrato like I remember nothing else about playing. Oh, the dread.... :cold:

Piano question ahead....

Anyone here with a lefty piano player?

My DD writes with her left hand, but by golly she's darn reluctant to play piano with it! She seems much more comfortable with her right, but I can't tell if that's just because she practices it more because it feels like more of a challenge. But at this point I'm feeling pretty confused. I have even suggested to her a time or two to try writing a word with her right hand. :bag

Piano is going swimmingly for her. In fact after having the challenge of technique with the violin, piano seems kind of boring for her. Boring isn't quite the right word of course because playing hands together is a different kind of challenge for her. But I notice her attention wander off much much more while playing piano than violin, where it doesn't seem to have a chance to wander off at all.

[ShanaT]

Get that kid a "biolin"! I'd send you our old 1/16th but DD2 has it plastered with mermaid stickers, so I am making it into a wall installation box with other "mementos" from her being 4.

So how young did people start? We started a couple months ago with Ds1 at 4 1/2 because he really wanted to, and he's doing wonderfully. It looked like the families with 3 yr olds just starting out were really struggling to keep the kids interest and get them to participate.
Now DS2, at 2, is showing a lot of interest, clapping the rhythms, and asking where his "biolin" is. I figure we should at least wait until he can get the right number "ippi"s in mississippi :)

[moominmamma]

Anyone here with a lefty piano player?

:wave I do! My eldest, now 14, is strongly left-dominant and plays violin (Suzuki) and piano (traditional). There was a time very early on when she found right-hand work on piano easier; I think it was because as a violinist she was very melody-oriented and she was more in tune with the upper voice. All that low-down harmony stuff wasn't her bag yet. It just took a little while for it to gel.

Miranda

[moominmamma]

So how young did people start? We started a couple months ago with Ds1 at 4 1/2 because he really wanted to, and he's doing wonderfully. It looked like the families with 3 yr olds just starting out were really struggling to keep the kids interest and get them to participate.
Now DS2, at 2, is showing a lot of interest, clapping the rhythms, and asking where his "biolin" is. I figure we should at least wait until he can get the right number "ippi"s in mississippi :)

I started my very precocious eldest, who was steeped in Suzuki music due to my teaching, at 3, recognized that she was too young, took a break and restarted at 4.

My next two kids I started around 4 1/2 or 5.

I was pretty sure that 4 1/2 or 5 was the magical starting age and that people who started at 3 were going for Suzuki parenting bonus points rather than taking a child's developmental timetable into account and doing the sensible thing. Sure, 3-year-olds often wanted to play an instrument, but they certainly didn't want to study formally and do the hard work of learning. To pretend otherwise was a delusion, and coping with the lack of fit between a 3-year-old's needs and the structure of formal study would require parental creativity gymnastics and superhuman patience.

Then my fourth child came along. At age 2 3/4 we could no longer hold her back. She wanted the structure of weekly lessons kids in the worst way and she wanted to practice every day. She started with 5-minute lessons but within 6 months was up to almost a full half hour. She practiced eagerly every day and though I thought it was just a honeymoon thing, it's now 2 and a half years later and she's still going strong (except that she just broke her collarbone ... but she's still practicing vibrato, she just can't use her bow).

So hey, I guess, like everything else in parenting, the answer to the best age to start is "it depends."

Miranda

[ShanaT]

That's helpful and consistent with my gut instinct. I'm sure that we started Gus at the right time (4 1/2) although I had a couple doubts if he was mature enough the first month. Huck will have to wait, but he'll be ready!

[MommaSuzi]

Hi, I'm a mom to a 2 1/2 year old and planned before she was born to put her in Suzuki violin at 3 or 4. So in preparation I began playing the Suzuki CD's in the car and playing my own violin in front of her. Much to my chagrin she begged so much for her own "biolin" and kept picking mine up and playing it that I broke down and got her a rental to try out. So far it's been a month and she still asks to play it every day. I figure it might still be a year or two before she plays twinkle, but she's happy. And if she stops asking to play it after a bit the rental will go back and we'll try again in a year or two.

[insahmniak]

Book Revisions - Violin

Anyone familiar with the book revisions? I just picked up a violin book 2, but it looks like the old style cover (white with blue swirls). Haven't these all been revised? My store can't seem to find a revised book, except perhaps one that is packaged with a CD, which we already have and don't need.

Should we stick with the original book or should we return it and buy the book/CD and rehome the CD? Are the revisions in this book fairly significant?

Also, while I was there I snagged a 1/8th rental that seems nice. Label says Aristocrat by Selmer. We've run into some financial surprises that involve DP and the ER (everything's good and it looks like things are going to reattach- yay!), so I was glad to try a few rentals and have some options. Anyone familiar with the quality of this label? All I know is that the tone is night and day different from the 1/10th she's in. And it sounds pretty good to me. I had it in my head we'd buy this time, so now I'm feeling guilty like I'm not going the extra mile. I'm feeling some MG (mama guilt). :o

[moominmamma]

Anyone familiar with the book revisions? I just picked up a violin book 2, but it looks like the old style cover (white with blue swirls). Haven't these all been revised?

Books 1 & 2 have been revised. The new recordings are very nice, but IMO they aren't enough of an improvement over Nadien/Cerone to warrant replacing the CD. You can definitely purchase the book 2 separately (https://www.ymonline.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=product.display&Product_ID=3810&CFID=2134704&CFTOKEN=98932746) and I think it's worth getting it rather than the old version. The bowings in Musette have been fairly drastically altered, fingerings are different here and there (many more 4th fingers) and there's the inclusion of all sorts of exercises (prep exercises, shifting exercises, intonation exercises, etc.) that really help with solidifying the technique in Book 2. The photos are good too. Much improved, I think.

Miranda

[insahmniak]

Thanks, Miranda. I'll return the old version.

[moominmamma]

Wanted to correct what I wrote above ... the revised Book 3 is now out, as of about a month ago. The main difference is the inverted bowing in the Bach Gavotte (which is how I've been teaching the piece for years (makes much more sense) and the option of numerous shifts and ornaments in various pieces. Oh, and the note errors in the Bach Bourrée have been corrected so that the piece now matches the viola edition.

Miranda

[Grace24]

Wow how cool to see this thread! I'm a professional violinist, I began with the Suzuki method when I was 3 (actually 2 months before my 4th birthday). And now I make my living playing, so there, it can work! :) I also taught book 1 when I was in high school.

Good for all of you, getting your kids interested in it. It's soooo good for them. My hubby can't wait to start our son (who's 6 months, a little young yet) on something, we don't know what yet.

Oh, I also took Suzuki piano from my mom starting when I was... um... 8, maybe? That didn't work too well because I would argue with her, so she found me another piano teacher. I played for 8 years and finally quit, my focus was more on violin.

Nice to meet y'all!

[violafemme]

Another Suzuki person here, I started violin at 3 and switched to viola in highschool.

I just started my 4 year old on violin.

I'll write more later but I wanted to say hello

[bettie cracker]

Hi there. I am brand new here.

My DD is 4 and we want to start on violin lessons soon. Her grandmother made her the most beautiful violin for her birthday (which she loves to play and knows how to hold correctly). I would love recommendations on how to find a great Suzuki teacher. We're in Lexington, KY

thanks in advance!

Kirsten

[moominmamma]

Hi Kirsten, welcome. Do you mean her grandmother made her a real violin, or a "box violin"? Just curious.

When I grew up (30+ years ago) there was a very strong Suzuki program in Lexington. Kay Collier-Slone who was the renowned 'expert' teacher trainer at dealing with very young pre-Twinklers got her start in that program and many excellent students, including her daughters, whom I grew up playing quartets with at summer institutes, came out of it. I would imagine there's still a sizeable program in your area, though I don't know for sure.

The solution to finding a great Suzuki teacher is to go and observe lessons. All Suzuki teachers should welcome/encourage this enthusiastically as it's a cornerstone of "getting ready" for families, and no teacher worth her salt wants to take on new students who don't fully understand the commitment expected and style of teaching -- before committing. Watch your prospective teacher in individual lessons with students in their first couple of years of study, especially those who are your child's age or just a little older. Feel the chemistry in the room, look for shifts in teaching style that respond to differing needs, and pay attention to how well the children play for their level. Not how advanced they are, but how good they look and sound playing at whatever level they're learning. Attending a recital can give you a good sense of the overall results of the teaching, as well as giving you a glimpse of the flavour of the studio community.

As well, a Suzuki teacher should have SAA-approved teacher training at least up to the Unit 4 level ... and a commitment to ongoing professional development, say, by attending summer institutes and workshops with teacher trainers, etc..

Miranda

[insahmniak]

Looking for ideas to help the left hand position.

We have a pretty severe case of guitar thumb going on. I'd like to see DD's had freed up more, the thumb come down a bit and straighten out, and more of a hole down there under the neck (of the violin).

Her wrist looks good and straight - not a lot of pancaking going on. But I'm guessing that her hand is supporting the violin almost completely.

I think her sponge/shoulder rest is inadequate but I don't know. I'm kind of scared to ask her to do the hands-free violin exercises because I have horrible cervial vertebra issues due to years of poor posture.

I should mention she's in a 1/10th and is using a simple gray sponge with rubber bands. I can't see how it's at all comfortable.

Any ideas?

[BarefootinBrooklyn]

Another "grown up" Suzuki kid here---I love seeing posts about the books and tiny violin sizes, it makes me miss playing. I started at 5, and played until I was 16. I loved it dearly, but didn't have the same discipline my peers did, and I became easily frustrated at not being "the best." We attended a Suzuki Instistute in Bristol, Virginia every summer and had such magical times. Good luck everyone who is starting out with it!

[monkaha]

:lurk:

We're currently "on vacation" from suzuki lessons while the teacher is out of town and we decide where our motivations lie. I am glad to see this tribe here though, and loved seeing the suggestions in the other thread too!

[Sugarshoc]

I am a violist. I didn't learn with Suzuki method. I learned traditionally on viola. When I started teaching, about 12 years ago, I had to use Suzuki books and since then I've become familiar with the method, teaching lots of violin. I teach a mix of Suzuki and traditional teaching. My baby is not here yet but I definitely plan on starting her when she's 3 years old if she's ready. I'm glad to see this thread. I also think about becoming certified as a Suzuki teacher.

[moominmamma]

I'm going to take this opportunity to brag about my youngest. She broke her collarbone about 3 1/2 weeks ago and took some time off from violin (and soccer, and aikido, and most of the other things she turns her busy body to) as she recovered. Now that she's back at violin, things are really clicking for her. She's playing with much more ease, and her rudimentary vibrato has now become a decent usable beginner's vibrato -- even on 4th finger! I'm amazed with how she's progressing.

Anyone else find that sometimes a brief break helps consolidate learning and prepare the way for the next leap? I know that as good Suzuki parents we're supposed to make practicing as much a part of daily life as eating ... but this forced break has reminded me that much good can come of a little holiday.

Miranda

[greenmamapagan]

Is this thread still active?
Mind if I hang around the edges of your tribe for a while? My 2 year old (nearly 26 months) is currently begging for a violin and we are pondering what to do. We're not quite sure she's ready yet but she's insistent. We are both musos but not string players so she has a keyboard set at the right height for her (weighted keys, after-touch etc), glockenspiels and every percussion instrument imaginable, a fife, tin whistles, recorder, my old "rubbish" clarinet plus a toy violin which has recently lost it's apeal. She wont settle for the fact that the sound is made by pushing a touch pad with the toy bow rather than bowing so she keeps making me get out mine (I can play anything in C, G or D that stays in first position :lol). Which means either I hold it & she bows or vice versa 'cause she's just too small.
WWYD? She's also asking for a trumpet but accepts the arguement that it's too heavy for her to hold right now so she'll need to wait a few years. A similar arguement doesn't work for violin because she knows they come in small sizes. I sound like I really don't want her to start playing yet, that's not true. I just want to make the "right" decision. YK?

[moominmamma]

Well, she may be too small. Playable violins smaller than 1/16th-size are pretty difficult to find. My dd started on a sorta-playable 1/32nd which we scoured the universe for, and stayed on that until she was almost 4, at which point she was big enough for a 1/16th, the smallest size normally available. So if your instinct is that she's not ready for lessons, you could quite honestly tell her (unless she's some great strapping youngster on the 99th percentile) that it turns out she'll have to be at least 3 to fit the smallest fractional violin.

As for lesson readiness, my own inclination is to wait until kids are 4 - 5. There's so much informal musical learning that can happen before that. Even structured informal learning. (Try looking into Alice Kay Kanack's "Musical Improvisation for Children" book and CD; I think it's fabulous!) Get copies of the Suzuki repertoire CDs, start listening every day, start attending group classes and lessons as observers. My favourite beginners to teach are the ones who have been attending classes as observers for up to a year beforehand. They've already learned so much, and they and their parents thoroughly understand the expectations that take root in a private lesson and group class environment.

That being said, my youngest started at not-quite-three, rather than age 4-5 as I'd intended. And she's done very well. She's incredibly focused and diligent, yet also emotionally resilient; it's a great combination for early formal instruction.

I'm meeting with a mom & daughter tomorrow about starting lessons in the fall -- the child turned four in April and while they've been observing classes on and off for 18 months, the child has only recently been able to understand that Suzuki violin expectations include not interrupting another child's lesson with questions and trying to get physically involved with the lesson, not squirming and chatting or laughing or wandering around. Nothing wrong with that sort of behaviour coming from a 3-year-old -- it's developmentally appropriate, but it's tough to run a goal-oriented private lesson or group class with a noisy preschooler moving around based on her own bio-developmental prerogative.

So you can get the best sense of her readiness by observing lessons. Not only will you be able to see what lessons are all about and develop a gut feeling about whether the structure will suit her, but by bringing her along you'll get a good sense of whether she can adapt to the behavioural expectations of a private lesson studio.

Miranda

[insahmniak]

We just returned from a fabulous week at the Intermountain Suzuki Festival in Salt Lake City. It was such a wonderful experience that I thought I'd give it a plug in case anyone is considering participating in the future.

We personally had classes with four fantastic teachers from across the country - one from Sweden. My daughter was so excited to play for her teachers and with other kids during classes and en masse on stage. It was magical to see so many motivated and enthusiastic people in one place.

We're hoping to make it again next year and reunite with the friends we made.

This year was the 30th anniversary of the institute, and it seemed very well-run. We didn't experience any scheduling or logistical issues throughout the week, which is quite a lot to say considering the hundreds of participants.

IMO, the institute at SLC is well worth considering if you're in the western US and looking for a festival with a large draw.

[greenmamapagan]

Thanks for the response. We've been looking out for a 1/32 since she was about 16 months with no luck (really just to have around). I measured her chin to fingers the other day at 36cm, I think a 1/16 is around 35.5 so she's nearly big enough. That doesn't address the problem of whether I think she's ready or not, I'm just glad we wont have to really look for a 1/32 because they seemed to be as rare as hen's teeth.
My favourite beginners to teach are the ones who have been attending classes as observers for up to a year beforehand. They've already learned so much, and they and their parents thoroughly understand the expectations that take root in a private lesson and group class environment.
She's been observing me teach flute lessons & direct rehearsals since she was 12 weeks old, but that's a good point. I will ring a few Suzuki teachers and see if any would mind us observing :) (I'm just a bit scared it will make her even more desperate for a violin NOW despite size/maturity factors)

[moominmamma]

We just returned from a fabulous week at the Intermountain Suzuki Festival in Salt Lake City.

I've heard good things about that institute. Thanks for the report. Are the offerings for advanced students as robust as they make them out in the brochure? I'm looking ahead to 2009 for my elder two. They'll be 15 (violin) and well past the end of the Suzuki books and 12 (viola) and nearing the end of the Suzuki books. They live for chamber music, both of them.

Our own little Suzuki institute happens in early August. It's only in its 4th year -- though my mom, the director, started an institute on the other side of the country that's celebrating its 25th year now.

Miranda

(thinking that at SLC for once she wouldn't be the only mom with four children registered)

[Stacymom]

I was at the instistute in SLC last week too, and I've been consistently for the past 9-10 years, sometimes taking teacher training, sometimes working, and for the past two years, taking my kiddos.

There is tons of stuff for advanced players- it really is amazing. They bring in masterclass teachers from everywhere (this year, I got to watch Jenny Oaks Baker) to teach the advanced kids. They have their own activities, and its not uncommon to see 12-13 year olds playing major concertos- Mendelson, Bruch, Lalo etc. They also recently started an intense "chamber days" program that starts a few days before the formal institute where the kids in quartets have 4 rehearsals daily with members of the Fry Street quartet, then they get to perform during insitute. I was super impressed witht he Fry Street this year, and heard a couple of their coached quartets, and for middle/high schoolers, I was impressed. I heard one student quartet do Beethoven Op 18, and one doing Dvorak's American, so the level of music is pretty high.

As far as violas go, we've had the Preucils for the past few years, and everyone has had wonderful things to say about them.

It really is well organzied and well run. There's two concerts every day, and they really are well put together. I haven't had a bad experience with a teacher yet, and I've been observing teachers for years. My dd cried at the end of institute this year, and told me she wished it would last a month!

And Miranda, you definitely wouldn't be the only one with four kids! :D

[monkaha]

Are the sizes the same for all strings? DD is currently (not) using a 1/2 violin. She's decided that she would rather do cello. This would work well because I have and play cello, so maybe it would go more smoothly than violin as far as practicing goes. So should I be asking around for a 1/2 size cello?

[moominmamma]

No, the sizes are not the same, nor do all teachers 'size' kids the same way. It is my impression that overall cellists don't move up as quickly. So a child who fits a 1/2 size violin may still be too small for a 1/2 size cello.

Just as an aside, the largest double bass normally played is actually called a 3/4 bass. Violas are normally described according to their string length, although in the smaller sizes some makers use the violin sizes, except that after a 3/4, the child would then move to a 14" (the same size as a full-size violin, but not a full-size viola).

Miranda

[greenmamapagan]

Just thought I'd update. We gave in and bought her a 1/16 violin and I've emailed a local teacher about observing group lessons. Actually it turns out there is a Suzuki festival on here right now (so I'm not expecting an immediate response to my email :wink ) so I'm taking her to watch the finale concert on Wednesday.
IMO the 1/16 is too big as she can just grasp the scroll but can't cup it with her hand. I don't think we'll start lessons until she "fits" it properly but then again I'll see how she goes observing lessons. I'm hoping to talk to a few other teachers at the festival so we can hopefully observe more than one in the next six months or so and find someone who is a good fit for our family.
She's been so cute though, wanting to "Practice violin practice" constantly. Carefully opening the case, doing everything slowly and with great precision, then saying "Good night violin, have a nice sleep." :love when she puts it away again. Her practice last for about 30 seconds and consists of mainly getting it out and putting it away. If only more of my eight year old flute beginners had practised like that I wouldn't have been sending their instruments to the repair shop so often :irked: in their first weeks.
My violin's also been restrung so I've been twinkling away :wink

[ZanZansMommy]

As for lesson readiness, my own inclination is to wait until kids are 4 - 5. There's so much informal musical learning that can happen before that. Even structured informal learning. (Try looking into Alice Kay Kanack's "Musical Improvisation for Children" book and CD; I think it's fabulous!) Get copies of the Suzuki repertoire CDs, start listening every day, start attending group classes and lessons as observers. My favourite beginners to teach are the ones who have been attending classes as observers for up to a year beforehand. They've already learned so much, and they and their parents thoroughly understand the expectations that take root in a private lesson and group class environment.


I'm meeting with a mom & daughter tomorrow about starting lessons in the fall -- the child turned four in April and while they've been observing classes on and off for 18 months, the child has only recently been able to understand that Suzuki violin expectations include not interrupting another child's lesson with questions and trying to get physically involved with the lesson, not squirming and chatting or laughing or wandering around. Nothing wrong with that sort of behaviour coming from a 3-year-old -- it's developmentally appropriate, but it's tough to run a goal-oriented private lesson or group class with a noisy preschooler moving around based on her own bio-developmental prerogative.

So you can get the best sense of her readiness by observing lessons. Not only will you be able to see what lessons are all about and develop a gut feeling about whether the structure will suit her, but by bringing her along you'll get a good sense of whether she can adapt to the behavioural expectations of a private lesson studio.

Miranda

This is great advice. Thanks.

Where would one find the Suzuki CD's you recommended?

[moominmamma]

This is great advice. Thanks.

Where would one find the Suzuki CD's you recommended?

Try Young Musicians (http://www.ymonline.com).

Miranda

[insahmniak]

Gossec Gavotte question -

For the plucking at the end, what is normally taught? When I think back to my playing days, I just did whatever felt right. If the passage involved lots of fast plucking, I'd probably end up with the bow/frog in my fist and have a good grip and have my thumb on the corner of the fingerboard. If it wasn't a fast passage, I might keep the hold intact and just stick out a finger and float. But for DD, whose hand is so small and I'm kind of stumped. Her teacher is wanting her to keep her hand hold and just stick her index finger out, but that's frustrating for DD whose index finger is just not very long. (Fractional bows are much shorter, but not much *smaller*.) Also, finding the right string to pluck seems to take an eternity. We should probably do some plucking exercises...?

Ideas?

[ZanZansMommy]

Try Young Musicians (http://www.ymonline.com).

Miranda


Thanks Miranda.

[moominmamma]

Gossec Gavotte question - For the plucking at the end, what is normally taught?

I teach keepin the bowhold intact, extending the index finger. It's tough for kids to get at first, but there are lots of fun ways to practice. Play Twinkle Rhythm A on open E, then touch nose with only tip of index finger, then play on open E as fast as you can. Do the same exercise but touching the top of the bridge instead of the nose, then again touching the G-string, etc. etc..

Miranda

[moominmamma]

double post

[honeybee]

Hi! I hope you don't mind if I join. We have been considering Suzuki violin lessons for my 4.5 year old ds. So, I'm just kind of soaking up the language here. I have to admit that as a parent with limited musical skills, it is a lot intimidating... I played the flute in hs, and while I enjoyed it, I was always last chair, and not the best musician. I love the whole philosophy of Suzuki, but I'm a little nervous about actually trying to learn to play a little violin myself so I can teach ds. :o

We have been taking our boys to Music Together classes semi-regularly, and they both love music. Ds1 loves to sing and listen to music and he seems interested in the violin. We know a great teacher (she taught one of our MT classes). I wanted to start ds1 this summer, but I'm due w/ #3 in September, so out teacher recommended waiting until January so we wouldn't get interrupted right after starting. Ds will be 5 at that point. So, I hope this thread is still going strong in January when I'll really need the help!

Melissa

[insahmniak]

I teach keepin the bowhold intact, extending the index finger. It's tough for kids to get at first, but there are lots of fun ways to practice. Play Twinkle Rhythm A on open E, then touch nose with only tip of index finger, then play on open E as fast as you can. Do the same exercise but touching the top of the bridge instead of the nose, then again touching the G-string, etc. etc..

Miranda

Thanks for the input and the ideas. We'll give that a try. It seems to always boil down to breaking it down to little steps. Oh, and keeping it fun helps, too!


Melissa-
We loved the Music Together program when we did it. I particularly appreciated the freedom our guide gave the class - to move pretty much however we felt at the time. It was very open and loosely structured. What a great place for little ones to feel free to express themselves! I thought it was a wonderful intro to what music can bring to our lives. To be honest, the transition to Suzuki felt a bit harsh after the freedom of that program. Yin Yang, I suppose. I'm bicultural asian-american and the differences between eastern and western approaches always seem quite striking to me.

[Lovin' It]

Great thread. We've been discussing starting dd soon and the comments on preparing to start (for example: sitting in on lessons and attending a concert) were so helpful. thanks.

[Bird Girl]

I'm happy to hear about the inter-mountain institute success. Our (Swedish) Suzuki teacher has taught there for several years, as does his wife, and they love it. We went to our little local workshop this year and last, but are considering adding the I-M institute next year.

Insahmniak, did your little one learn Zorro's Mark?

[insahmniak]

I'm happy to hear about the inter-mountain institute success. Our (Swedish) Suzuki teacher has taught there for several years, as does his wife, and they love it. We went to our little local workshop this year and last, but are considering adding the I-M institute next year.

Insahmniak, did your little one learn Zorro's Mark?

No -we didn't learn Zorro's Mark. But we did learn a Swedish folk song from Sven, our techniques instructor. Spot-a-Snyoos it the phonetic way I'd spell it. Something about spitting the tobacco juice? Anyhow, we had great fun with Sven every morning. He got us warmed up with physical and brain-teasing exercises and he was full of high energy.

So, now I'm wondering what Zorro's Mark is!

[Bird Girl]

It's a fiddle piece. Our violin teacher, Goran, taught all of his fiddle students that piece at the institute. (Or most of them--I didn't give him the third degree about how many students he taught that particular piece.:lol )

We had Sven at our workshop last year--he's incredibly fun and SO high energy! My DD still talks about him.

[moominmamma]

You are getting me all excited about our own upcoming Suzuki Institute. It starts on the 3rd and is small by most standards (84 students) but huge by the standards of our little town of 600 in the middle of nowhere ... the population of the town increases by 25% that week with the music students and their families.

My eldest has been away at two Suzuki institutes on her own (she'll be back Tuesday) and yesterday had the thrill of playing a full concert at the Notre Dame Basilica in Montreal with the senior string orchestra. She'll be doing our institute and then two further weeks of (traditional, non-Suzuki) music camp after that. She lives for summer institutes, this kid. Actually, all my kids do. My 5yo has a count-down calendar on the wall that she made. It's down to 9 days today, she excitedly told me. Can't wait!

Miranda

[water]

Are the sizes the same for all strings? DD is currently (not) using a 1/2 violin. She's decided that she would rather do cello. This would work well because I have and play cello, so maybe it would go more smoothly than violin as far as practicing goes. So should I be asking around for a 1/2 size cello?

It depends on her size. My DS (newly 7, but BIG for his age) just moved to a Japanese 1/2, the German 1/2s are still too big for him.

If she is average for a 7yo she will probably still be on a 1/4. Again, the German 1/4s are bigger than the Japanese 1/4s, so maybe look for one of those...

The cello size definitely differ though from the violin, so make sure you do size her properly.

[water]

We just got back from a week at institute, and had a great time! We are doing another one in a couple of weeks also.

My 3.5yo DD tried violin and did shockingly well. We observed some lessons this spring and she was really not ready at all to start, so I had decided to wait until she is 4, but then she demanded to play violin, she already has a box and we have been playing feet position, bowhold and holding the box games, so I let her. We got a 1/16th, which fits her perfectly, and she loved the lessons!

When she decides to she can focus like nobody's business, so she did alternately wonderfully and then had tantrums when she didn't want to, sigh. She is more motivated to start than my DS was because he already plays (cello), so I am going to keep playing games and start her in the fall. She already has a great bowhold.

[Bird Girl]

Miranda, what fabulous experiences for your daughter! It's so great to be able to travel, and when you travel as a musician, you're traveling with a purpose, so you can avoid that traveler's angst that sometimes hits me when I'm just off on a vacation.

Our own workshop is small too--about 40 kids, I think--but each size has it's own best capacities.

[dubsmum]

My son started violin the month before he turned five. He's seven now, in Suzuki Book 4. Our program isn't "pure Suzuki" as it isn't available in our area, but I do all I can at home to adhere to the tenets of the Suzuki method, and in sensing my desire to stick to Suzuki, his teacher seems to be doing the same thing. He's currently on a 1/2 size Carlo Lamberti LV11, which is a lovely instrument, and one I don't see him outgrowing any time soon. (Fingers crossed!)

[greencat]

I just found this thread by wondering around on MDC. This thread is great since our school doesn't have a parent support group. Currently, my DD6 is finishing up the book I, and DS4 is on Lightly Row. We are planning to have a private concert to celebrate the book I completion and Twinkle graduation in November. We'll have a piano accompanist. It seems my DD is more worried about how she wants her hair done, and what to wear!? I hope all will go well.

[moominmamma]

Hi all. We've just wrapped our Suzuki institute and are all flying high. All four of my kids were well-placed and enjoyed themselves immensely. What a lot of fun! And what a great bunch of people. Suzuki families are just such amazing human beings.

We figure ours may be the only Suzuki Institute that has ever had a black bear hanging out for an afternoon within view of the classrooms. That was rather exciting for a lot of the families!

Miranda

[moominmamma]

We are planning to have a private concert to celebrate the book I completion and Twinkle graduation in November. We'll have a piano accompanist.

You just reminded me that we never did this. My youngest had wanted to do something similar ... but somehow we forgot all about it once she was far enough beyond Gossec Gavotte for a graduation recital to be comfortable and easy for her. Oh well... I guess if it was still important to her she would have mentioned it again. I do think it can be a nice tradition if it's handled well.

Miranda

[ShanaT]

Hi,
My DS (5 in 2 weeks) started on violin last spring and was doing great, having fun, and really into it until mid summer. He had his first little concert at an Arts Festival with the rest of his class and seemed to enjoy it very much, said "I want to do this a hundred more times" afterward. Since then, he has refused to play, saying it "breaks his brain." I can't come up with any games or incentives to get him to play. When he does play he'll only play "fiddle tunes" - his own wild improvisations or his easiest songs. He won't play twinkle, even though he was playing it well before. I'm not sure what to do. Its time to sign up for fall lessons and he says he still wants to, but I'm starting to wonder. We tried summer lessons, but his teacher hasn't been available.
BTW playing violin was his idea, he begged for a month before we gave in, but when we started I committed myself to giving it at least a year.
Its not just violin, he was reading well in the spring and now says that reading "breaks his brain" too.
We were having so much fun before, I'd appreciate any advice to get us back on track.

[moominmamma]

Shana, this sounds like one of those phases in a child's development when things seem really quiescent, or even regressive, but really your child is integrating skills and knowledge and getting prepared for a leap into more abstract learning. I would sit back and be patient, and just stick with the program in terms of your commitment to his Suzuki violin learning. In four to six months I think you'll look back on this summer and say "well NOW I see what he was getting ready for!" Kids never stop learning; all that happens is that sometimes their learning is of internal reintegrating preparatory type and we don't see it. What looks like a plateau usually turns out to have been a foundation for some big leap.

You'll probably find that regular lessons will help get things gradually more on track too, with those clear regular gentle expectations and the rhythm of weekly lessons and assignments. Does he have group classes? That will help a ton as well.

I think you'll find over the long term that waxing and waning, bumps and leaps, are just part of the landscape in music learning. You've met your first one. This too shall pass. I think it's valuable for a child to have a parent stick by them with faith that they can and will eventually progress, that they are worth supporting, that excellence is inevitable when we persist, even when it comes gradually and indirectly, and that sometimes there are pauses and detours but that doesn't mean there's anything wrong.

When my eldest (now 14 and a violin powerhouse, working on the Mendelssohn violin concerto) was your ds's age she went through a similar phase. This was in the winter of 1998-99 and I blogged my way through it. You can read a post from the middle of that phase here (http://nurturedbylove.blogspot.com/1999/02/erins-violin-blog-14.html). Eventually it passed and she took off again, which you'll discover if you want to read later posts of the "violin blog" type (most of them from 1999 are violin blog posts). Patience was all that was required of me.

Dr. Suzuki talked about two different types of patience. The first is "controlled frustration." The second is "the absence of specific expectations." I think that Suzuki parents need to aspire to the second. Wishing you the good kind of patience. :D

Miranda

[ShanaT]

Thank you for your wonderful reply! I still need to graduate from "controlled frustration".
I agree that its a developmental phase. He's responding the same way to other activities that he enjoyed before, reading, drawing, swimming. Everything "breaks his brain". And I have no idea where he came up with that expression!
We haven't had regular lessons through the summer and haven't had group at all. I'm convinced he learns more in group than in his private lesson. Our current teacher just took a job at a local university and is only going to offer group monthly. I had been considering another teacher, who ONLY does Suzuki, and monthly versus weekly group may tip the scales in her direction.
I'm hoping that he gets back into when we start lessons again. He has played his crazy fiddle tunes for the for the last couple days as long as I only applaud and don't make any suggestions :) It's really pretty adorable when I'm not trying to get him to do something else. I'll look at it as another form of learning from now on. Thanks!

[calendula]

subbing!

[pixilixi]

Not a Suzuki family here, but definitely interested. I will go back and read all the posts, but I had to respond to one poster whose dc's interest stemmed from going to a bluegrass festival. Dh is a guitar fanatic and is really into bluegrass, so we attend quite a few festivals (along with folk and celtic ones).

Anyway, ds is only 2, but he has not ever responded to kids music in the way he seems interested in bluegrass. He always runs to dh's room when dh starts playing or singing this style.

Anyway, my question for some of you experienced muso's - I am thinking about learning violin myself (at the ripe old age of 31). I have been a bit put off by some people's responses, but then, others have been encouraging. I love the sound of the instrument myself, and love celtic music, so I'd love to try. I guess the other thing is that I would like ds to see me playing music as well as dh, and eventually for ds to learn an instrument to play with us. Can anyone give me some encouraging words of wisdom?

Right, I'm off to see if I can find out more about suzuki method.

[monkaha]

We're picking up again. What was the book suggested (here?) with tips for making practicing fun? I skimmed this thread but couldn't find it. Thanks!

[megincl]

We're picking up again. What was the book suggested (here?) with tips for making practicing fun? I skimmed this thread but couldn't find it. Thanks!

OOoooh! I'd definitely love to know the names of any books. And, while I'm at it, anyone know of books for kids that talk about practicing?

still cello-ing here...
megin

[greencat]

We just got a new Fall schedule from school. We do all of the group lessons on Mondays from Pre-Twinkies up to book 2/3 starting from 4:30pm. The goup lessons are 45min each, but they had added 5min between classes for tansitioning. Mostly, for teachers who may teach one class to the other, or kids to get their violin out, put the coats up, etc. I like that.

Soon, we'll have our Halloween Play in for all the groups to play together with costume on.

What is happening with your school that is new and exciting??

[ebethmom]

I'm so glad to have found this thread!!

I grew up in a Suzuki family. I played violin for one year, then switched to viola. I've been a violist ever since! I play professionally and teach Suzuki method violin and viola.

My kids are 7 and 4, and we're getting ready to start lessons as soon as their violins get here. We've dabbled with their lessons before. Ds started when he was 5, right when we were starting to homeschool. I couldn't fight both battles! Now that homeschooling is going well, we'll get back to violin.

Dd is eager to start. She already has a pretty bow hold and a strong interest. She would much rather play my violin. Hopefully the 1/16 that is coming will sound a lot better than her 1/32!

[moominmamma]

OOoooh! I'd definitely love to know the names of any books.

I love the Eds' books. Ed Kreitman wrote "Teaching from the Balance Point" which is about violin pedagogy and how it is all wrapped up in the Suzuki philosophy. There are some very inspiring stories and he presents a wonderfully realistic big-picture view of the Suzuki violin journey. It's about equally relevant to parents and teachers. Edmund Sprunger wrote "Helping Parents Practice: Ideas for Making it Easier" vol. 1 which is, as the title would suggest, primarily for parents. It's not all about gimmicky stuff, games and bribes like it could be. Instead, while there are a few little games suggested, the book is mostly about expectations and supporting your child and figuring out how to help your child do good practicing more easily.

Miranda

[moominmamma]

ebethmom, nice to meet a fellow violist. I grew up a Suzuki violinist but 'cross-trained' on a borrowed viola for two or three years as a teen in ensembles and youth orchestra. As an adult I continued with violin on and off but somehow I knew that even though I didn't own an instrument I was a violist at heart. I bought myself a viola about 6 years ago and haven't looked back.

My ds (11) is also a violist. I'm learning the Suzuki viola repertoire alongside him since I didn't learn it at the first pass. He's just grown into a 13" instrument that should be arriving next week. He plays a Sabatier (http://www.violonarchet.com/alto_3_coins.htm), lucky kid.

I have never found a 1/32nd that's really worth playing. Three of my kids started on that size (we grow small kids in my family) and they kind of hit walls of frustration with the sound quality, especially when it came time to start using the D-string. The sixteenth seemed so joyfully playable when they finally grew into it. My 5yo recently moved up to a 1/10th. It was still a little too big, but she's well set up and was feeling the limits of her 1/16th, and it was a similar order-of-magnitude improvement in playability. Life's good now. :thumb

We're arranging and re-arranging fall schedules here too. Our group classes and orchestra rehearsals will shift to Wednesday evenings this year. They're a challenge at the best of times -- we have 15 students, ages 4-15, violin and viola, levels from Twinkle to post-Book-10 all in the same group class :eyesroll. My younger kids' violin lessons will be on the same day but in the morning. My elder two no longer study locally because they've outgrown their teachers. We drive them to lessons elsewhere once a month. Not ideal, but it's the best we can do.

Miranda

[ebethmom]

Ed Kreitman's book Teaching from the Balance Point is on my list of required reading for every Suzuki parent. He writes so clearly and has such a clear vision for his students.

I also like Ed Sprunger's book. Your description is great, Miranda. I'm sure I'll be referring back to this book often as I attempt to teach my own kids.

I would also recommend two volumes published by SAA. They are compilations of articles published in the SAA journals. Drat . . . I'll have to post later with the titles. I can't come up with them at the moment.



I have never found a 1/32nd that's really worth playing.

We actually have two in our home right now. One of my teacher friends let me borrow her dd's first violin. It's one of the Twinkle violins. I don't think they make that line anymore. She bought it as a "small 1/16". I measured it, and it is actually a 1/32. It sounds OK.

When we first borrowed her violin, my dd was only 2 1/2. She was just dangerous! We had her violin out in the rehearsal hall on afternoon, and she just TOOK OFF! I was right there with her, but she was too fast. Running full tilt with a borrowed violin - EEK! So I bought her an ebay special. It truly is a VSO!! (Sharspeak for Violin Shaped Object)

It's pretty, but it's impossible to tune and sounds like the piece of trash that it really is. Dd would try to play it, then hand it back saying "It's not working!"

I'm looking forward to getting my kids started, and also a little nervous. I'm on a tight schedule with our homeschool. We have to get it all done before I leave to teach other peoples' kids!

[ruthmg]

Hi! My sister is a suzuki learner. (My mom found out about it too late for me). She took violin, and still plays at age 30 recreationally, whereas I had traditional piano lessons and hated every minute of it.

My son is 3 1/4, and loves music. We have a keyboard (not a piano) that my in-laws got for him (cheaper, you know), and he likes to play it. I would like to start him on the violin, but I haven't really exposed him to seeing violins played, just listening to Vol. 1 and talking about violins when we listen to classical music.

My thought for starting him on violin is that learning to tune is important, and that he can switch to piano when he is older. We have a pretty good Suzuki community here in Gainesville, FL. Should I wait until he's older (like 4?) or start him in January when he's 3.5? I was thinking January because my 2nd baby is due then, and I thought Suzuki could be something that we do together as a special mommy-son thing.

[moominmamma]

I have never found a 1/32nd that's really worth playing.

I should qualify that. There are defintely better and worse 1/32nds and the better ones are better than nothing. I think that there are a few that can be playable on the A and E strings but it's almost impossible to find one that has a responsive D- or G-string sound. One of ours could sort of make a passable D-string sound, enough for, say, that one note in "Long Long Ago," but when it came to sustained lower-string playing in the latter half of Book 1 it was the sort of thing that made me want to apologize to my kid after every note for the poor tool I'd had to provide her with.

A typical 1/32-size beginner will have grown into a 1/16th by the time s/he's working in the latter half of Book 1. That didn't happen in our family with two of the kids so we struggled, my eldest especially. With my youngest, we moved her up 'early', while the sixteenth was still a bit too big, and she did much better.

Miranda

[moominmamma]

My thoughts on starting age are earlier in this thread, here (http://www.mothering.com/discussions/showpost.php?p=11543700&postcount=33) and here (http://www.mothering.com/discussions/showpost.php?p=11277229&postcount=16). But only you know your ds and your individual circumstances. Starting before age 4+ can be a huge challenge; many/most Suzuki teachers don't start 3-year-olds any more due to those challenges, even though there was a lot of enthusiasm for the idea a generation ago. Still, every child is different.

Miranda

[Mama Shifra]

We were having so much fun before, I'd appreciate any advice to get us back on track.

I am not a suzuki mom (my child goes to Childbloom guitar www.childbloom.com, which is similar but not quite suzuki), but I found the book In the Suzuki Style: A Manual for Raising Musical Consciousness in Children by Elizabeth Mills (Berkeley, CA: Diablo Press, 1973) a great resource for motivating children when they are losing interest. It is out of print, but your library may have a copy. The book A Suzuki Parent's Diary: or How I Survived My Firs 10,000 Twinkles by Carroll Morris also speaks of how after a big recital, your child may fall into the dumps. So take heart! It should pass.

Good luck!
Shifra

[insahmniak]

Ideas for developing "self tracking" of repeated sections?

DD's getting ready for her book 1 graduation and we're having some issues with repeated sections. I'll give an example: Minuet 3 starts with a section that seems to repeat but actually has two different endings. Then that entire section is repeated. DD gets pretty frustrated with me when she goes on to the next section and I remind her about the repeat. "But I already repeated it!" I've shown her the music several times, singing through it for her and showing her the notation. In an attempt to make it more concrete for her I told her that each "hello" section (the grace note) needs a "goodbye" section to follow it and then you repeat the hello and goodbye and *that's* the repeat.

So I used jelly beans (at this point we were desperately needing a pick me up) and when she'd start the hello section I'd put out a yellow bean, and a red bean after she followed it up with the goodbye section, and then we'd repeat it and then she'd go on of course. And she got it - yay! But after a few times doing this very well I figured we needed to try it without my visual cues. So I asked her to keep track herself and she got lost again. And super duper frustrated, I might add. Tears and unconsolable. I'm getting the feeling she's quite frustrated and disappointed with herself.

I so want to help her get this and feel good about playing again. It's like she lacks a certain mindfulness about her playing and I don't see how we're going to get through the book 1 recital without it.

Any ideas? I'm really looking forward to her emerging on the other side of this and feeling good about her playing again.

[moominmamma]

I love using "stepping stones" because they're so beautifully incremental.

You get the requisite number of pieces of craft/construction paper. For the first half of Minuet 3 you'd want four. You might choose pink for the "hellos" and yellow for the "goodbyes." Get your child's input on colour choices -- if they're meaningful they'll work better and your child will be more invested in them. Write (or draw symbols) for "hello" and "goodbye" in them. Then use many or all of the following steps, progressing to the next once she deems the current one "too easy." Most kids love it when you say "oh yeah? you think that's too easy? Let's see if you can do this, then!" as if you'll be amazed if they can ... but you notch the difficulty up by such a teeny amount that they're sure they can do it.


Ask your dd to help you lay them out on the floor as a "path" in the order they come in the piece.
Ask her to make the path all by herself.
Put them down mixed up and ask her to fix them.
Get her to try putting them in order when they're face down, without the words/symbols showing.
Listen to the first half of the piece on CD whilst stepping with her from one "stone" to the next.
Challenge her to step at the right time from one to the next while listening to the piece.
Sing the piece and step with her.
Have her sing the piece while stepping.
Put the stones behind your back and pull out pink or yellow randomly. Ask her to sing it.
Repeat the above but ask her to play the section you pull out on her violin.
Repeat the previous step, but with two or four sections in sequence, with a short "stop and think" break between each one.
Repeat the previous step, but with the stepping stones on the floor as a path. She should play with a stop, step, think pause between each one.
Repeat the previous step, but with the stepping stones face down (no words or icons, just colours.
Repeat with a shorter Stop/Step/Think pause.
Repeat the previous step, but hide one of the stepping stones beneath a newspaper or magazine so that she no longer has the colour clue.
Repeat the previous step, but hide two stepping stones.
Repeat, hiding three.
Repeat, hiding all four.
Pick up all the stepping stones and newspapers and make a big show of putting down 'invisible stepping stones.' "Here's a pink one! Now for a yellow...." Challenge her to play and walk along the invisible path.
Next challenge her to play while standing still and imagining walking along the invisible stepping stones.


Each day when you practice, back up one or two stages in this progression from where you left off the previous day, and start moving forward again.

This approach almost always works beautifully and very quickly. I honestly can't remember it ever NOT working with a student. And the metaphor of a mental journey along a path is something the kids seem to internalize and transfer to other repertoire with increasing ease.

Hope that helps!

Miranda

[RiverMamma]

When he does play he'll only play "fiddle tunes" - his own wild improvisations or his easiest songs. We were having so much fun before, I'd appreciate any advice to get us back on track.

Hi, I'm new to this thread. I was a suzuki violin kid from age 6. My DD is only 6mo, but shows allot of interest in music of all kinds, & LOVES to be in the sling under my fiddle when we are performing. (getting a little big for it these days though, & grabbing the bow now to!) Anyways, ShanaT, I too was one of those kids that only wanted to play fiddle tunes (that is all I do now, DH & I are a celtic duet,) but I stuck to suzuki 'till I was 12, & classical 'till I was 19 (then I moved to Scotland for 2yrs... they converted me for good:o) Anyways, to keep me on my classical track (wich I think is important even if he does become just a fiddler,) my parents used the fiddle tunes themselves as incintive. Basicly, If I worked on my suzuki lessons, I got to learn a fiddle tune too! Of course sometimes pizza bribes were necicary to get good practice in too... but... the fiddle tunes were defonitly good encouragment. I hope this helps at all. Good Luck! BTW, maby try telling him that it is building not breaking his brain?

[RiverMamma]

Anyway, my question for some of you experienced muso's - I am thinking about learning violin myself (at the ripe old age of 31). I have been a bit put off by some people's responses, but then, others have been encouraging. I love the sound of the instrument myself, and love celtic music, so I'd love to try. I guess the other thing is that I would like ds to see me playing music as well as dh, and eventually for ds to learn an instrument to play with us. Can anyone give me some encouraging words of wisdom?


Do it! Do it! Do it! Go for it girl!!!!!!!!! You are never too old to learn music!!!!!! I have a fiew students who are kids (I work allot more on classical w/ them,) but most of my students are mid 20's to mid 30's & either picking it up for the first time or picking it back up after giving it up in childhood. I have one student who is 50 & she is awesome!!! She started at 35 w/ a teacher who told her she was too old (ironicly, my first teacher,) and so she gave it up thinking she was too old:( Then she saw my fliers which quote "you are never too old to learn music" and has been taking lessons from me for about 2yrs now & is doing Great!!!!!! Most of the adults I work with are interested in pretty much just the fiddle tunes (mostly celtic, some bluegrass) so I cater to that. I give them classical technique, but we mostly just learn fiddle tunes. After all, I firmly believe that music should be fun, so go ahead, find a fiddle teacher, screach away & have FUN!!!!!!! Oh, and don't be so hard on yourself either, adults tend to be way too self critical. I have a 31yo student right now who is doing amazing for the short time he's been playing, but has some serious self esteme issues. He want's to quit after 4mo cuz he's not a virtuoso yet! We had a good long talk the other day, I really hope he shows up to his lesson tonight. It takes time & Love, you have to give it that:love

[insahmniak]

...Hope that helps!


Woot! That was exactly what I needed. It's such a challenge for me to remember that things can be broken down even further than what I'm already thinking are baby steps. Baby steps! How many times have I already written that in this thread?! Anyhow thank you so much for the suggestion. I wanted a piece with a fresh start so we are tackling Gavotte sections now. And what a long path Gavotte is! She's loving it and proudly showed it off to her dad this evening. I'm going to try to move it very gradually along. Where we've been is NOT pretty and I don't want to be back there.

She did some work on Musette this evening and wow that's one heck of a bow piece. She wants desperately to slur the eighth notes and separate the quarters - and we're just working the first line. Does a dramatically slower tempo help? I tend to be a big picture thinker and sometimes slowing down gets me lost, but maybe it's good for others? Anyhow in case anyone has some Musette tips or advice that might save us some grief :joy:

Oh, and just a bit of lamenting here:
When does the resilience kick in? DD gets so easily frustrated and then stuck in it. I try hard to help her along. I suggest breaks and that we'll return to it later but that suggestion frustrates her. I try very hard to keep it light and goofy without demeaning her. But she just goes there so much and entirely on her own. I don't know if somehow I might be contributing to it. But of all the gifts that Suzuki gave me, the one I was aware of very early on was how I had learned that practice works. Mistakes are part of practice and we make mistakes. We work to correct them and with time the mistakes get less frequent until they disappear and we're just in the heart song groove and that's where the honey is. This willingness to make mistakes and try again is one of the wisdoms I'm hoping DD develops on this musical journey - but I'm having trouble with being patient while she gets there. We can't get better if we are crying about how frustrated we are! Anyone else experience this? :o

[kananaskismama]

Hi - I'm new to this thread. I took the parent course for Suzuki piano and was planning on enrolling my DD in piano lessons this fall. DD turned 3 in July and is very precocious. Still, I wonder if she is too young to start Suzuki piano.

The other main contributing factor is that we don't have a piano. This is an affordability question - we simply can't afford one right now. I grew up playing the organ and we have one in our house but I don't think it would be suitable to practice on.

My concern and question is - is it better to start at age 3 or will it be alright to wait to start when she is 4? Many of the children enrolled here are just 3.

[moominmamma]

My concern and question is - is it better to start at age 3 or will it be alright to wait to start when she is 4? Many of the children enrolled here are just 3.

Hey there neighbour! (Noticing your handle ... I'm in the Kootenays, just on the other side of the Rockies from you I'd guess....)

If you have any doubt, I'd wait. Get all your ducks in a row, make sure your dd is ready. I honestly don't see any advantage in starting at 3 vs. 4. Personally I don't start 3-year-olds unless they're the younger sibling of an older Suzuki child and are begging for their own lessons and it is beginning to feel cruel to put them off. In that case we can start with 'piggy-back' lessons, giving the 3-year-old 5 or 10 minutes at the beginning of the older sibling's lesson, with no specific expectations of focus or progress, just going with whatever they seem ready for.

Start listening to a CD, start sussing out instrument possibilities, go and observe group classes or recitals from time to time. You won't lose anything waiting another year for actual lessons, IMO.

Miranda

[ShanaT]

Thanks Shifra and RiverMama! I just ordered "In the Suzuki Style". We haven't come out of our lull yet, but I'm hopeful.
Thanks for all your advice.

Right now I'm struggling with whether to stick with our current teacher and have lessons at 4PM and group monthly at 5:30 (They're not at their best in late afternoon and I'll be driving home in traffic) or change teachers to get better lesson times and weekly group lessons. DS is reluctant to switch, he likes his teacher and friends, but he thrives on the group lessons and monthly might not be enough for him. I also feel guilty switching, but I guess its business.
Maybe I should figure out who is better prepared to deal with his "fiddle-side".
I think he might really be tired of Twinkle and frustrated because he could play it before and can't now that he hasn't played consistently over the summer.

[insahmniak]

What do you do when you're on the road?

We're going to be out for 10 days. DD's book 1 grad recital is 10 days after we get back. I really don't want to be out of the loop for that long, especially that close to the recital. So I'm thinking of bringing her violin with us. Honestly I'm a bit nervous about traveling with it. It's a fairly expensive (for us) rental that we really love and the thought of carrying it everywhere we go - well maybe we should pick up some backpack straps. Anyhow, I'm thinking of risking it anyway and bringing my very inexpensive fiddle along, as when DD practices I usually play some along with her - it seems to help a lot to not be the only one playing.

DD will be playing piano, too, at the recital, and that's definitely needing more work at this point. So I'd like to try hooking up with a piano to play on.

We'll be in San Francisco - tagging along while DP is at a conference. I'm thinking of trying to find music stores she can go and play in - some with practice or teaching rooms that they might rent to me. I could maybe get her to do some busking if I'm lucky and only if I play the duet parts with her (she doesn't have a very strong nerve just yet). I'd even love to get her a master class with someone but that seems like a far out possibility.

Well - in case you want to share how you handle not dropping the ball when you're on the road I'd be interested in hearing about that.

[insahmniak]

Right now I'm struggling with whether to stick with our current teacher and have lessons at 4PM and group monthly at 5:30 (They're not at their best in late afternoon and I'll be driving home in traffic) or change teachers to get better lesson times and weekly group lessons. DS is reluctant to switch, he likes his teacher and friends, but he thrives on the group lessons and monthly might not be enough for him. I also feel guilty switching, but I guess its business.

4pm would be really bad for us too and I've avoided afternoon lessons so far simply because of afternoon meltdown issues. Now if our current teacher whom we ADORE would have some kind of schedule restriction I'm afraid I'd still stick with her, though, and give afternoons a chance. But that's simply because I can just about guarantee that we have the best teacher in the area for my daughter's (heart/music) needs. So I guess I'd evaluate how this current teacher fits with you and your son and before even considering switching I'd go observe a new potential teacher at least a few times (and definitely by myself - not with DD). Changing teachers when we have a great match is something I wouldn't do without doing a lot of homework first. I'm really picky about teachers, though. I remember from my own experience as a youngster how different lessons can feel with different people.

Perhaps you can give afternoons a chance and just see how they go? Maybe give yourself a ton of support by having special brain and energy snacks before lesson, and maybe a little quiet time in the afternoon before hand. You might end up cultivating a different rhythm and could be surprised with how well afternoon lessons can go.

About groups, I'd love to go more than once a month, too. But with less frequent ones they'll probably never lose their charm. So there's that. If you're really drawn by the frequent group lessons could you go observe those, too? There could be something about the weekly group that doesn't sit right with you, or they could be really awesome and that could help you decide.

I guess my advice boils down to this: before making changes I'd want to observe a lot before deciding anything.

[ShanaT]

I guess my advice boils down to this: before making changes I'd want to observe a lot before deciding anything.

That's good advice. I think that 4 and 5:30 could work for DS, but I have to bring DS2 along also and they're just awful times of day for him. I think I'll probably give it a try. I do want to observe another teachers group lesson before making a decision. I like who we're with, but she just took a job at a university and is only doing Suzuki 1 day a week. I kind of feel like its not really her first priority anymore and there's no scheduling flexibility at all.
What do you consider a good "brain snack"? We'll be needing those!
Of course he still won't play twinkle, but his crazy fiddle tunes are becoming not so crazy and are starting to sound pretty real and kind of nice, so he's learning, just not the way anyone else intends for him to. :p

[RiverMamma]

What do you do when you're on the road?
I could maybe get her to do some busking if I'm lucky and only if I play the duet parts with her (she doesn't have a very strong nerve just yet). .

Busking, absolutly! Busking is the best way to travel period. Play with her, but let her keep all the change she makes to spend on something she wants! Talk to her about beeing very carefull w/ her instrument while on the road if you don't have a clunker to take. I have a really nice instrument that lives at my moms house a state away (I never play it.:o) And then, I have my junker fiddle,:love it goes up mountains, down rivers, across oceans, in to pubs, down the road, & arround the world. (It even flipped in a class 4 rapid once!) What's that saying about the difference between a fiddle & a violin? You can spill beer on a fiddle!:lol Anyways, I don't know what to tell you about the piano, sounds like you have some good ideas though. Have fun in San Fransisco!

[insahmniak]

Busking, absolutly! Busking is the best way to travel period. Play with her, but let her keep all the change she makes to spend on something she wants!

Oh, you sound so enthusiastic about busking! Keep in mind this a 5 year old who's just starting Hunter's Chorus. She's very much musical and you can see that in her when she plays so that makes her really fun to watch. But still! Got any tips - um....advice? How do you get up the nerve to put your music out there in public when you haven't been asked? Ok. So I guess I'm a little nervous too!

How does one go about picking a good location? I see your location is CO so you might be familiar with Pearl St in Boulder. I could see doing that place pretty easily. Might not get much (lots of competition!) but the street just cries out for busking so you don't end up feeling quite so much like a sore thumb. Does google map have a "busking site" option? :o

[moominmamma]

My kids tend to only busk on our 'home turf,' because there we know the unwritten rules about where to be and what's allowed / appreciated. My kids busk when they're enthusiastic to do so ... generally motivated by money, but sometimes just riding high on the burgeoning feeling of a new level of mastery. They make up their own play lists and motivate themselves to get out there. I'm not sure I'd ever nudge / push / persuade a kid to busk; it's a very uncontrolled environment. I'd rather they build their enthusiasm for performing through situations where all their ducks are in a row ... an appreciative attentive audience, no distractions, proper rehearsals, accompaniment support, etc.. Then, once they're enthusiastic performers, by all means, let them start busking if they want.

When we travel we try to ramp up the listening, knowing that on-instrument time will be limited or non-existent. If we do bring the instruments, I'm happy if they get played every other day for 10 minutes. We have practice mutes for hotel playing. I'm thinking of buying a Yamaha silent violin for my eldest, because she spends the day and a half surrounding her lessons in a hotel and it would be nice for her to be able to practice / warm up / try out her lesson assignments before we hop in the van and spend a (no-practicing) day in travel to get home.

Miranda

[RiverMamma]

Oh, you sound so enthusiastic about busking! Keep in mind this a 5 year old who's just starting Hunter's Chorus. She's very much musical and you can see that in her when she plays so that makes her really fun to watch. But still! Got any tips - um....advice? How do you get up the nerve to put your music out there in public when you haven't been asked? Ok. So I guess I'm a little nervous too!

How does one go about picking a good location? I see your location is CO so you might be familiar with Pearl St in Boulder. I could see doing that place pretty easily. Might not get much (lots of competition!) but the street just cries out for busking so you don't end up feeling quite so much like a sore thumb. Does google map have a "busking site" option? :o

Well, beeing a Leo, I guess I'v always Loved beeing on stage, so it wasn't a challenge at all for my mom to get me out there. Money might be an incentive maby? I don't really have any advice on stage fright other than everyone gets it & it's a healthy thing & usually goes away once your bow hit's the string.

As far as places to busk, usually those pirfect places like pearl st. are not such pirfect places. As you guessed, not allot of money to be made there. (But a great practice place nonetheless! I'v seen suzuki kids out there plenty, & they usually draw a bigger croud than us "profesionals." I think it's the cute factor.) Aspen though, right infront of the "no soliciting" sign will make us a fiew hundred in just a fiew hours.
I have traveld all over busking, (bought a oneway ticket to London when I was 19, arrived w/ a backpack, a fiddle & $300.) I find that you just have to scope the teritory, sometimes you get asked to "move allong" and sometimes you draw a croud. A really good way to do it is to find a nice little coffe shop or cafe with a patio & ask if you can play (often times it will get you lunch as well!)

[RiverMamma]

insahmniak, you reminded me of a poem I wrote at the point in my life when I was in Scotland, & rediscovering music through Celtic tunes. I just dug it up...

Adventures
of the rambling rover
Lessons
of the student learned

"You must be brave!"
sais the little old lady
to me with eyes wide
& a hand, in sympathy extended

I smile at her marvel
accept her sympathy
and the coin in my case
an exchange for gratitude & music

Adventures
of fallowing Godly Guidence
that crazy voice
always fluttering in my heart

Lessons
of facing fears
standing in the thick of it all
staring fear right in the face

Playing
that which wells in my soul
the music that brought me here
the music that I so greatly fear

I suppose I must be brave
to stand here & play all day
to all those who would her
of that which I most greatly fear.

[greencat]

I have 6.5 yr. old who is finishing up the book I.

She wants some violin/theory workbook. She is working on "I can read music" and loves it. Does anyone has recommendation???

Thanks,
greencat

[RiverMamma]

Do it! If she want's to read, by all means help her read!!! That is my one regret from beeing raised suzuki, I am not a strong reader. I believe that having an ear is more impartant, but I also believe that reading is an essential skill.

[greencat]

Do it! If she want's to read, by all means help her read!!! That is my one regret from beeing raised suzuki, I am not a strong reader. I believe that having an ear is more impartant, but I also believe that reading is an essential skill.

Thank you for your support. I'm not at all a strong music reader. Do you (or anyone else) have recommendation to which work book that may be fun for her at this age?

Her group class teacher is going to introduce the game, "Musopoly." I am also thinking about purchesing the game for home use. I tried to read the book before, but it is a monster to tackle for someone who has no music training. I'm hoping the book is for the teachers to get the most use out of the game. Not so???

[moominmamma]

The Theory Time (http://www.theorytime.com/) workbooks are the best I've ever seen in this vein.

My 5yo has been through "I Can Read Music" book 1 and is now well into Book 2. (And was thrilled to work with Joanne Martin this past summer and get her autograph on her ICRM book!) I think reading should be introduced at the end of book 1, as soon as posture and by-ear skills are well entrenched. Depending on the child's age/readiness they may 'dabble' in reading for a couple of years or move forward full-force.

Miranda

[onelittleone]

Just saying hello and will be following this thread ... my DD also started violin at 3 - she's 4 now. She LOVES it. We don't practice as often as we should but she really has developed an ear. We decided on Suzuki so I could learn as well. We are having a great time. Working on lightly row currently!

[Bird Girl]

Welcome. Lightly Row can be a welcome break from A-E-1-E!

We've never done busking here, in the SF Bay Area. But as a kid, I did it plenty. I'm not sure what the difference is--it seems too close to panhandling here, when we have so many people doing that, and less like the charming kid out with their empty case.

[ShanaT]

We're starting Lightly Row this week! Definitely ready for a break from Twinkle. Our Teacher also started using Swallowtail Jig as a reward for playing Twinkle variations. DS just loves to accompany her on it. His face just lit up when she first played it and he said "I know THAT song!"
We're still struggling to get back into a practice routine, but I'm finding he'd rather play for me when I'm cleaning the kitchen or something like that, rather than playing with him or paying close attention. I guess it works. I thought he enjoyed the complete attention of practice time.

[greencat]

I'm so, excited (may be more than the kids.) I got the box of my oders yesterday. In it, I have the game, Musopoly. How do you or your kids like the game, if you have played it before?

The Music Mind Game is very, very interesting, but her book is intimidating, since I dont' have much of music/theory back ground. However, I saw the new, "Puppy Packet" on line.

If you buy the Puppy Packet, can you just jump in and start working with the kit without reading the book? (please, please, please, say, yes. and, say somthing like 'the book is for teachers and student who are on book 7 to get most out of the game' --or something like that; tee hee... )

By the way, if any of you are interested, I have "I Love To Practice Kit" for Book 1 (for violin.) There should be another one for Book 2, as well as one for Suzuki Cello students. It's a great kit, and we love them a lot! I didn't buy the kit until my DD was more than half way through the Book 1, but, now, she helps her brother, (age 4, finishing 'Lightly Row') with it.

[insahmniak]

I'm so, excited (may be more than the kids.) I got the box of my oders yesterday. In it, I have the game, Musopoly. How do you or your kids like the game, if you have played it before?

The Music Mind Game is very, very interesting, but her book is intimidating, since I dont' have much of music/theory back ground. However, I saw the new, "Puppy Packet" on line.

If you buy the Puppy Packet, can you just jump in and start working with the kit without reading the book? (please, please, please, say, yes. and, say somthing like 'the book is for teachers and student who are on book 7 to get most out of the game' --or something like that; tee hee... )


We got the Puppy Packet online and have had a great deal of fun with it, without the book. There are tons of MMG videos online in case you're looking for suggestions. I think they're youtube but not remembering for sure. Do you have a university near you? I've checked the book out from our local university library to get some ideas too. But I'd say given what you can see online the book isn't absolutely necessary.

[insahmniak]

DD's Book 1 violin graduation recital happens in less than two weeks and we've suffered a couple losses. One is huge, the other is just logistics.

DD's dear dear piano teacher passed away very unexpectedly. DD had been taking piano lessons since earlier this year and had adored her teacher. We all did. She was steeped in Suzuki and raised seven kids in it. They even had lessons with Kataoka. She was a tremendous gift to the community and will be greatly missed.

The piano teacher had graciously offered to let us use her studio for DD's violin/piano recital week after next. We are left trying to figure out a couple of things. One, should we include the piano pieces without the teacher? This doesn't feel right to me, but I can't articulate why exactly. I do know that without the teacher to guide us in preparing these last two weeks we don't feel prepared. I feel she was essential to it happening well.

Two, should I have the recital at our home? We don't have much of a good space or nice piano for the accompanist, but it'd do and DD would probably feel much better playing here rather than someplace she's not familiar with. Then again, it could be "too" familiar and she'd have an audience (about 10 family friends) but wouldn't be in her performance shoes. KWIM? Her violin teacher would be here and that could take care of some of that, but still I worry that she'd be too casual and then not play well, play goofy, or not even play at all. I feel like that's not as likely to happen in a different/foreign venue.

Thanks for listening and any ideas. It's been a rough week here and I could use some encouragement.

Oh, and in case you're wondering, the show really must go on. My mom has tickets to fly in from quite a ways off. My mother put me through 12 years of Suzuki violin, starting from age 5, and I'm ever so grateful. For her to see my daughter play this graduation is something I've been wanting to happen. So I do want it to happen. I just have to figure out how.

[greencat]

We got the Puppy Packet online and have had a great deal of fun with it, without the book. There are tons of MMG videos online in case you're looking for suggestions. I think they're youtube but not remembering for sure. Do you have a university near you? I've checked the book out from our local university library to get some ideas too. But I'd say given what you can see online the book isn't absolutely necessary.

Oh! That is what I wanted to hear!! Thank you, thank you, thank you.

Q: what book should I look at University library? Some titles will be helpful.

[greencat]

We are also planning the Book 1 recital and Twinkle graduation recital with my dd and ds. The details are not figured out yet which I am getting a bit worried.

We are very sorry for your loss. I can only imagine your sorrow and feeling of abcence. I have no experience in loosing anyone where I depended for strength; especially when "the show had to go on." Though, I can relate to the time when our first teacher, Martha left. We were absolutely in love with Martha. (I should say, "In Mental Harmony" with Martha.) After she had to go live with her sister in far away, we did grow into the next teacher who took her place. However, with up hill in many issues. We now have a different teacher who we grow under and very happy. We are still good friends with the previous teacher.

I can also relate to the situation where you have to cope with an occasion without the person who you held dear. When I was expecting my second child, I couldn't get my midwife who delivered my first to come deliver my second as I wanted. I had to find a different midwife. It was hard to accept the fact that Molly couldn't come for us, but I had to work with a midwife who had to step up to take Molly's place (they were friends.)

It took a lot of talking about many issues over our concerns to be on the same page. It all worked out at the end, but it only worked because we had a same wish: To deliver the baby at home with loving attention. And, I am very thankful for her.

So, I'll say you must to keep your focus on what is this recital for, and what do you wish your child to remember out of this glorious occasion? And, do the best to meet that wish. Deciding the details of the recital with your daughter, together may also help her in time of feeling a great loss. I think children are often more honest in telling you how they feel, and what they want, if you ask or give them an opportunity to do so. I think open-ended question is a good way to start discussions. Hope all will go well.

With Love,

[insahmniak]

We are very sorry for your loss. I can only imagine your sorrow and feeling of abcence. I have no experience in loosing anyone where I depended for strength; especially when "the show had to go on." Though, I can relate to the time when our first teacher, Martha left. We were absolutely in love with Martha. (I should say, "In Mental Harmony" with Martha.) After she had to go live with her sister in far away, we did grow into the next teacher who took her place. However, with up hill in many issues. We now have a different teacher who we grow under and very happy. We are still good friends with the previous teacher.
...
So, I'll say you must to keep your focus on what is this recital for, and what do you wish your child to remember out of this glorious occasion? And, do the best to meet that wish. Deciding the details of the recital with your daughter, together may also help her in time of feeling a great loss. I think children are often more honest in telling you how they feel, and what they want, if you ask or give them an opportunity to do so. I think open-ended question is a good way to start discussions. Hope all will go well.

With Love,

Thank you for your kind words. We may have found a new venue and DD has determined she still wants to play a couple of the piano pieces. One piano piece will be Twinkle with Alberti bass, which I think may be a challenge for me to get through with dry eyes. But it'll be a nice tribute. We'll dedicate the recital to her and maybe say a few words.

As for whether or not to continue with piano, that's been a difficult decision. Our piano teacher's daughter has offered to take on her mother's students and has room for us, but the lessons will be held in her mother's studio and that will be hard for me - I'm not sure how it would be for my daughter. I think we could move past that after a while, but I'm sure the first few times would be difficult.

Doing the two instruments at once has proven to be challenging. One of the challenges is about having started violin so much earlier (relatively) than piano. It is definitely more difficult for her to feel as competent with piano and she becomes frustrated very easily when she practices. When we sit down to practice - of her own volition - she literally throws her hand at the piano keys, as if she just can't be bothered to try to have a good hand posture/shape. She does this very, very deliberately. I calmly and matter of factly respond with, "If you're not ready for this right now let's just come back to it later." But then she immediately cries and grabs at my clothes and tells me she wants to play. Gah. I'm pretty sure it's tied to how she feels about her playing. She's expressing a conflict, right, about wanting to play but being afraid of "trying" to play...? I feel very encouraging and try not to put pressure on her at all. I don't know how to change my approach but there's probably a lot I could be doing differently.

There are other issues at stake here, but mostly what I'm seeing is that she does seem to want to play. She does play willingly, without prompting. I'm not married to the idea of her continuing piano right now, but neither do I want to communicate to her that I don't believe in her ability to work through this steep learning curve. I feel like we're in a challenging spot, and it sure would feel so easy to just take this opportunity to end the piano lessons. :o

[greencat]

Thank you for your kind words. We may have found a new venue and DD has determined she still wants to play a couple of the piano pieces. One piano piece will be Twinkle with Alberti bass, which I think may be a challenge for me to get through with dry eyes. But it'll be a nice tribute. We'll dedicate the recital to her and maybe say a few words.

That sounds wonderful. I did not ask for the date of your recital, but I wish you the best, and the day to be the very beautiful to remeber.

greencat

[insahmniak]

That sounds wonderful. I did not ask for the date of your recital, but I wish you the best, and the day to be the very beautiful to remeber.

greencat

Thank you. It's in a couple of days and we're glad to be finally getting there. I have the programs written up and the flowers ordered for the teachers. We'll take the piano teacher's flowers to her studio after the recital. I've been told family will be there.

DD has put so much effort into preparing. And aside from some typical five year old stuff she's been wonderful to work with. The other day we sat down to play Lightly Row on piano and worked on R Hand, L Hand, then hands together. She did something she'd never done before: she played it all through hands together without a single hiccup or pause or missed note. It was utterly perfect and I was so stunned. This is quite an accomplishment for her and I was so proud of her that I actually teared up. At that moment I knew that however she played at the recital it wouldn't particularly matter. That one moment reminded me that from where I sit I have the best view in the house. I'm present for the day to day challenges and I witness the accomplishments as they happen. As challenging as it can be sometimes, I wouldn't trade it for the world.

[insahmniak]

Well there's been a lot of Suzuki-related drama at my place and I'm sorry - it has seemingly hijacked the thread. I feel bad about that.

How about something new?
Anyone want to talk about Halloween group lesson ideas? Have any favorites?

[greencat]

We have Halloween Play-In for group lesson. This will be our third year to do this. This is also a time for moms to compete for our cooking-creativity with creepy foods, since each family is bringing treats for a party afterwards. This group lesson is also open to the public. Therefore, many extended families come with camera/recording device.

Last year, we decorated our recital hall with giant spiders made from black garbage bags and red plastic cups, skeletons made from empty milk jugs, black light bulbs, gauze and webs hanging from ceiling, etc.

I don't think we'll have anything elaborate this year, though: Just the costume and junk food party afterwards.

[moominmamma]

If we happen to have a group class on or right before Hallowe'en, we usually do a couple of special things to celebrate. We play "Witches' Dance" of course, but we usually do the "dance", which involves kicking legs in can-can style on the accented notes, spinning a circle on the cadential triplets and a few other silly things. And then we usually do "spooky Twinkles" ... for example, playing simultaneous versions of Twinkle a half-step apart, play sul ponto or a weird technique that I'm not sure what it's called where you play close to the frog using more of a fist bow-hold and move the bow with lots of pressure parallel to the strings rather than perpendicular.

Miranda

[ebethmom]

Anyone want to talk about Halloween group lesson ideas? Have any favorites?

My Book 1 group likes to play "Spooky Rhody". (Aunt Rhody in a minor) And we like to mess around with spooky sounds. Sometimes we do spooky sounds in the dark! I like to have them play Twinkle with spooky sounds during the half notes, or with tremolo or riccoche bows.

I have a few families that don't celebrate Halloween, so we don't do any full-blown Halloween party.

[ebethmom]

a weird technique that I'm not sure what it's called where you play close to the frog using more of a fist bow-hold and move the bow with lots of pressure parallel to the strings rather than perpendicular.



I don't know if that has a real name - we always called it "cow tones".

[ChetMC]

I hope it's okay if I ask a question outside the current topic of discussion.

Our DD started Suzuki viola about 6 weeks ago. I feel like we started her too late, or maybe just at the wrong time.

At 2 and 3 years old DD was focused. She'd sit through a two hour concert or ballet no problem. She watched everything and took it all in. Her fine motor skills were great. She held a pencil correctly at 14 months. She could peel an orange before she was three. She did best in one-on-one and small group activities. DH's family is very musical. I thought a stringed instrument would be a good thing for her to try.

However, we didn't actually get her started with Suzuki until she was 4. And lately she's been generally frigidity, wiggly, unfocused and silly. I admit that this annoys me and DH. We know that it's normal for 4 year olds, but she wasn't like this three months ago. DH does the lessons with her. He has more musical background than I do. He says that her teacher is patient, and not put off by her lack of concentration at times. The teacher says that both DD and DH are doing well, but I'm still wondering if we missed our window of opportunity on this, or if it just isn't a good fit for her.

She's still using the practise/butterbox instrument that her and DH made. She is improving with the exercises, but slowly. We have heard her hum the tunes, and incorporate the musical phrasing from the songs on the CD into songs she makes up... though not a lot. I was encouraged last weekend when she spontaneously started singing the song her teacher sings to DS at the bus stop.

She never protests going to her lesson. She often wants to draw pictures or make things for her teacher. It's no problem to get her to practice the exercises for a few minutes at a time provided we pick the RIGHT time to do it. I feel like this would have gone a lot better with her at 2.5 or 3 though.

I don't know what I'm looking for exactly with this post. Maybe some insight into what we should expect from a 4 year old Suzuki student. How long do we give this? How do we know if we should continue? Do all teachers start kids with a butterbox? How long do they typically practice before they move on to the real thing?

[Stacymom]

I gently chuckled at your post, and not because of anything you wrote, but because all of the behaviors your dd are exhibiting are completely normal and expected for a four year old in music lessons. I don't think that you've missed your window at all! There is always an adjustment period whena child starts formal lessons, imo, especially when they are young. Young children usually have never been in a situation where they work one one one with another adult before, and something as formal and structured as a music lesson is a brand new experience.

Its quite possible that she's still trying to figure out how the whole lesson thing works- trying to learn what's acceptable behavior and what's not, and how she's expected to act at lessons. Plus, what might seem like silly excercises to you or your dh are actually going to be quite involved for her physically and motor-skill wise, and sometimes young music students get rustrated and act silly or flat out refuse if they think its something that they might not be able to do.

Really though, your 4 year old sounds quite normal. I don't expect more than 5 or so minutes of practice daily for the first 5-6 months or so, depending on how fast the child moves. The first year of lessons for a young child is more about learning about lessons, learning to interact with the teacher, and learning to preactice everyday than it is about getting actual music out of the instrument. (And you will get music the first year- I promise!) I had a teacher trainer tell me that the first year is all about putting things into the child, and it isn't until late in the first year or early in the second that you start seeing results.

So, the real point of this very long winded post is to not give up yet! She's normal in every way, you haven't missed the boat on anything. I bet you'll graduate to a real instrument very soon, and that will provide a lot of enthusiasm and motivation to you and your dd. Good luck!

[moominmamma]

ChetMC I second everything Stacymom has said. Totally normal. If you'd started at 2 1/2 or 3, you'd likely still be dealing with some of these "4-year-old" issues now. Kids grow and change and new wiggles and distractions and motivation humps come up as they do. It's totally normal.

I start any kid under 9 on a box. How long they stay on it depends on numerous factors -- age, focus, care, progress with posture tasks, the presence or absence of a cohort of other box-playing peers, whether there are older siblings already on 'real instruments,' etc. etc.. Ideally I susually aim to keep a 4-year-old on a box for about 12 lessons. Our current group of three beginners is getting twice-weekly master-class-like lessons, so those 12 lessons are almost done. These kids (aged 4, 5 and 6) now have their real bows and are using their real violins under teacher guidance at lessons, but won't be taking the actual instruments home to practice on until probably the end of next week (two more lessons). But every teacher is different.

I'm always thrilled to hear about little viola beginners! What size / type of 'real' viola will your dd be using? Have you figured that part out yet?

Miranda

[ChetMC]

I'm always thrilled to hear about little viola beginners! What size / type of 'real' viola will your dd be using? Have you figured that part out yet?


Stacymom & Miranda, thank you both for your quick responses.

DH said that the teacher sized DD at her last lesson. He said that she would need a 1/64th size to start. That's sounds really small to me though. Maybe he meant 1/16th? He said that the instrument was insanely small!

When I mentioned to DH that I'd heard it could be hard to track down small instruments for beginners, and that I'd seen posts from parents scrambling to get tiny instruments, he told me that this particular teacher does it for the parents since she's the one who is connected with the community and can find what is needed the most easily. That's all we know at this point though.

[greencat]

Does your music school have a program like a String Orchestra for the advanced students who are able to read music? For an example, a friend of mine who attend different school from my kids belongs to the String Quartet. Their school have different string orchestra groups according to the level of skill. For an instance, a group of students who had completed at least the book one, and can read music will be invited to a group of “Young Discovery Orchestra.” This is separate from their group class. They are students of various age (and instruments) who play together as orchestra; not necessary from Suzuki book (most often not.) They come to the school for their private lesson, group lesson, and this orchestra meet (which means three times a week for some students.) My school currently does not have one. If you do, I would like to hear about it. Thanks.

[moominmamma]

Our "music school" is basically just me and my mom and our tiny cohort of students, but we do have ensemble components to what we do.

On group class nights, we have all the kids together for 20 minutes or so. They range in age from 4-16, and in level from pre-Twinkle to post-Book-10. We have them together for reasons of supportive community-building, even though it's a huge stretch to make the time relevent to both extremes. After that 20-minute get-together, the group of 7 advanced violinists and violists retreat to another room for an ensemble rehearsal. They're all Book 6+ and they're called "Summit Strings" and have matching golf shirts for performances -- they have grown a strong sense of ensemble identity and loyalty over the past year. They work on arrangements of various music, from folk tunes to Vivaldi to Dvorak, usually 3-4 part arrangements. We don't have an accompanist, so multi-part arrangements are a necessity, but also an opportunity for growth. The kids are often 1 or 2 to a part.

We also have a community string orchestra that is about two dozen people, including all of our Book 3+ students, adult amateurs and the three local string teachers. We don't have enough people to make orchestras at different levels, so we just have repertoire that spans different levels of difficulty, with the less advanced students leaving after we've rehearsed the easier stuff.

We also have one kid-quartet, made up of kids 12-14 who are quite evenly matched for ability and motivation. They're Book 6-7 level, though they started playing together whent they were finishing Book 4. We used to have two kid-quartets, but our older group's cellist and violist grew up and moved on. We have enough violinists for at least two more quartets, but don't have the cellists and violists to fill things out.

Miranda

[ebethmom]

I think we just found another teacher for our program! I teach in a smallish city (14,000), and the other violin teacher left this past summer. She was tired of the 3 hours round trip. I added a teaching day and had room for most of her students to my studio.

We had placed an ad in the SAA journal and got a few responses, but our program is small and we don't have enough students to have a teacher relocate. Then last week I got a call out of the blue from a college student who just moved to the town where I teach. She hasn't had any formal Suzuki training, but she is familiar with the method. She is so excited about teaching! And she's interested in Early Childhood classes, which is next on our list of things to add to our program.

I met with her today. Now we just need to rustle up some students for her.

[moominmamma]

That's great news Elizabeth. Hope everything works out well.

Miranda

[RiverMamma]

Hi, it's been a little while, just red up on what I'v missed. insahmniak, I just wanted to say that I too went througha similar thing as a kid... every piano teacher I ever had either died, retiered, or moved away. I finaly gave up & stuck to the violin. I don't know what to tell you about continuing or not, I kept trying to continue. It just never worked out.

Anyways, I have never even herd of a "box" I have always started my students on an instrument. I started at six on a real violin, I have started kids as young as four on real 1/32 sized violins. I plan on starting my DD on a real violin as young as possible. She is already facinated, and will move her bow arm in imitation.:love

[greencat]

If you can find a decent 1/32, and the child is willing to take lessons, I think being able to work with the real violin is a way to go. (However, 1/32 is small enough, and I really don’t see a value in using or trying to find the ‘insane’ 1/64.) My DD started with 1/32, but I gave my DS the “Cherub Violin” made from cardboards to participate in a group lesson with my DD. He was not even 3 yrs. old at a time, and he was not enrolled in a class. DS used it to practice taking a bow, to learn parts of violin, resting position, etc. in the group class and at home with me.

Some teacher will help the student make the box-violin out of empty box, toilet paper core, etc which I think it is great. I ordered the Cherub Violin on the net, since it came with a wooden bow. My DS pretended to play Twinkle with it, but that was not the purpose of having the box-violin.

[moominmamma]

My mom has always started kids on boxes, and believed firmly in the practice. I always thought it was kind of contrived and mean to the kids to insist they use a pretend thing for their first dozen lessons or so, and if I used a box at all it was either just for a 2- or 3-year-old younger sibling who wanted to feel involved in the whole violin endeavour but wasn't ready for lessons, or to get started with kids who had an instrument on order.

But my mom moved to my town a few years ago and I had the privilege of watching her work with four new little beginners from the very beginning, and to follow them as they learned all the pre-Twinkle tasks. One had had a violin to play with for the previous six months and the other three started lessons afresh. All were on boxes for the first 12 lessons (they had two 45 minute lessons a week together as a small group, and their parents also got 30 minutes a week of instruction / support separately) and then moved to regular private lessons on a real violin. I'm now totally sold on the idea of starting on a box.

The kid who had had a violin at home had all the typical challenges of learning things which were awkward and unintuitive. Because her 'real violin' was so much fun to scrub around on, she had spent time doing so without first spending the requisite time mastering basic posture. So at the first lesson she was the kid whose box kept ending up in front of her shoulder, rather than atop it. She was the kid who grabbed the frog of the bow and had to be encouraged for weeks to soften her hand and not grab. She was the one whose bow arm moved side to side with a stiff elbow when she tried to "bow" the rhythms on her shoulder. These are all very typical issues with little beginners. I thought that teaching the proper way to do all these things was just the normal big challenge of teaching beginners.

But the three other kids (two of whom were very challenging personalities, I might add, so not all-round 'easy' kids) had almost none of these problems. Because the box presented no temptation to do more than what had been taught, they learned those first tasks beautifully on the first pass. They didn't try things their way and learn them wrong and then have to be taught to unlearn that way and relearn a new way ... because there wasn't the allure of scrubbing away on a real instrument to draw them forward.

So I think there is a very strong pedagogical argument for teaching a child on a box for a while at the beginning. My mom had been telling me so for years, but I had to see it in action to believe her. Particularly if it's possible to set up a situation where the child has a small cohort of peers doing the same, so that he doesn't feel like he is the only one now "allowed" a real violin, and the use of the box has feels normal to him.

RiverMama, I'm surprised you've never heard of a box. The use of a box in the early stages has been part of all the beginner level (1A) Suzuki teacher training courses I've done.

Miranda

[RiverMamma]

If you can find a decent 1/32, and the child is willing to take lessons, I think being able to work with the real violin is a way to go. (However, 1/32 is small enough, and I really don’t see a value in using or trying to find the ‘insane’ 1/64.)
We looked at a 1/32 violin today, my mom just had to see how long 'till it would fit my DD!:lol

So I think there is a very strong pedagogical argument for teaching a child on a box for a while at the beginning. My mom had been telling me so for years, but I had to see it in action to believe her. Particularly if it's possible to set up a situation where the child has a small cohort of peers doing the same, so that he doesn't feel like he is the only one now "allowed" a real violin, and the use of the box has feels normal to him.

RiverMama, I'm surprised you've never heard of a box. The use of a box in the early stages has been part of all the beginner level (1A) Suzuki teacher training courses I've done.

Miranda

I have a friend who has a violin shop, he was telling my mom about boxes reciently, she had never herd of them either. I was raised suzuki, (& her allong w/ me) but we are both kind of unothodox teachers. We will use suzuki material & methods, but lots of other stuff as well, & we both teach reading & theory from the get go. Also, most of my students are older, & interested in fiddling. My mom teaches public school, & does private lessons on the side. Her main focus has been Mariachi believe it or not. (she lives in New Mexico) Most of what I play now is Celtic, but will teach anything a student is interested in, and have myself floated through just about every genra there is.

[ebethmom]

I like to start my students on 'practice violins.' It gives them a chance to master sidedness. The left and right sides have such completely different tasks. Then they can focus on making a beautiful sound when they do have a real violin.

My younger students stay on the box until they master the Twinkle rhythms with elbow action. I like to use the Foam-a-lins that Young Musician carries. They are sturdy, and are shaped like real violins.

If I have a student who is losing interest in the box, I will try to move them on to the real violin more quickly.

When I start older beginners, I use other tools to help them master 'elbow action' bow arm. I use a paper towel tube and an old Glasser bow to make a 'straight bow machine.' The student threads the bow through the tube, then puts the tube on the left shoulder. The tube shows them how to open the elbow hinge instead of sawing.

I have to say, my own kids have no interest in the practice violin. They want the real thing!

[RiverMamma]

I use a paper towel tube and an old Glasser bow to make a 'straight bow machine.' The student threads the bow through the tube, then puts the tube on the left shoulder. The tube shows them how to open the elbow hinge instead of sawing.


Hey! That's a darn good idea! I like that!

[ebethmom]

Hey! That's a darn good idea! I like that!

I'm trying to remember where I saw this first . . . I think my friend Peggy Crowe used it. We were grad students together at Northern Illinois.

One tip, I do use an old worn out bow since the paper towel tubes are hard on bow hair. Also, a bow with fresh horse hair makes an scritchy sound that drives me nuts. It feels a little like fingernails on a chalkboard. (shivers)

I've been trying a new trick lately for students who are "elbow-action challenged." I tried out a happynex sling a few weeks ago and liked it pretty well. It's just a stretchy piece of cloth that ties in a knot. You thread it under the tailpiece or chinrest, then put your right arm through the loop so the sling holds your instrument on your shoulder. Your head and left hand are free of any holding responsibility.

I have a few students who just struggle with the bow arm action. I've had them rig a sling like happynex (little girl tights work well!). With the sling, you can lift your head and watch your right arm without adding any left hand tension.

For my own playing, I like to use the happynex every now and then. It is freeing to play without having to hold on anywhere. But the sling makes my right shoulder a bit sore. I wouldn't want to wear it in rehearsal, since my instrument would be up on my shoulder the entire time.

Now someone needs to figure out a sling that distributes the weight more evenly, instead of just around the right shoulder. I've found that if I loop the sling around my right breast, it's more comfortable. :lol But that look is NOT going public!! :blush I've thought about sewing a sling into a bra, then pulling the loop through the shirt neckhole. Probably something else that I wouldn't feel comfortable using outside my own practice room.

[Yooper]

Hi! I am new to this thread. I wish I had known about this before!!!!

Dd is 5 and has been in Suzuki violin since she was 3.5. She started on a box:) Then she moved on to a 1/32 violin. Our program rents the instruments out as part of the lesson cost and they have several 1/32 violins. They advocate starting kids out at age 3, so there was a need. You are all right though, the D and G strings were pretty much unresponsive. Dd has been on a 1/16th for the last several months (she is a really tiny 5yo) and it is MUCH easier on the ears. So it has been 1.5 years and she is nearing the end of Book 1 (Minuet 2 right now).

There was no "shopping around" for teachers or programs here. We only have one. Luckily, we are happy with our arrangement. Our program does begin music reading earlier than most Suzuki programs so dd is in the Reading Orchestra this year.

My only issue with the program is how intensive it is. We are unschoolers so it is not like we have a lot of other things to do every week, but it just seems a little over scheduled for a 5yo. Each week dd has a 45 minute lesson, an one hour long orchestra practice, and at least one other thing. The "other thing" is a recital, recital practice, concert, concert practice, or "playing out" at a nursing home, event, or school. Add one hour of daily practice and it seems to be a very very big commitment. I cannot imagine throwing in school or any other activities with it.

Dd LOVES it though. I never "make" her do anything, let alone an optional instrument practice, but she is eager for violin time every day and gets totally geeked about going to lessons. I play the clarinet in our local symphony orchestra and dh plays drums in a rock band so she has been surrounded by music from day one.

[moominmamma]

Welcome Yooper! How fun to hear about another "senior little one" playing in an orchestra. My 5yo just started in an orchestra this past week and is thrilled. She's been waiting to be part of orchestra for at least two years. She's only playing 3 of the shorter easier pieces of the orchestra's larger repertoire but she's working eagerly away at them.

I agree that the scheduling and structure can seem like a lot to unschoolers. It only works for us because it's really the only structured thing we do. Your dd sounds like she has even more than mine, though. Our lessons are only 30 minutes, and group class and orchestra alternate weeks. Recitals come up only once or twice a year (we have no accompanist in the region) and group ensemble performances maybe four or five times a year. So not too much extra stuff. Though she's recently started piano ... and that's adding a new layer.

Miranda

[greencat]

It seems many Suzuki moms here on MDC like "I can read music."
My DD is working on its first book, and enjoys it a lot.

I purchased "Beginner Violin Theory for Children" by Melanie Smith for my DS who is 4, and its second book for my DD who is 6. This is a workbook to practice writing music symbols, etc. These workbooks are really easy, and you can zip through the whole book quickly, if you'd like. However, we are taking our time to appreciate each page.

We also have "Theory for Young Musicians, Games and Exercises to Enhance Music Skills" by Carla Ulbrich. It has many fun games that are perfect to use in a group.

I felt "All for Strings, Theory Workbook 1" by Gerald E. Anderson and Robert S. Frost is better for older children. It is written for string students, but got complicated fast; too fast for my 6.

We've had "Theory Time" for a long time, but just starting to get into it now. This workbook was hard for me to use, since I never studied piano. However, it became less intimidating, after we worked on "Naming White Keys" and "Lines and Spaces Note Speller" which are mini series of workbooks for piano students from Meil A Kjos Music Company. There are 6 thin workbooks for beginner piano students: Very easy to use, and they were perfect for us to start piano which now also helps with Theory Time and understanding key signatures. (by the way, I just ordered flash cards for key signatures from Alfred Publishing. I'll write my review on this later.)

Over the summer, I bought "Disney Solos for Violin." This music book came with a CD that you can choose a track 'with melody cue' or 'accompaniment only'. My DD does not play with the CD, since it is too fast for her, yet. However, she loves the fact that she can play her favorite Disney Princess music on her own violin now. We used this book for her to practice reading music. A bit of fun added, away from Suzuki for the summer while we had no group lessons. I chose this book because she likes Disney Princess, the music was written for violin, and came with accompaniment CD.

[Yooper]

Welcome Yooper! How fun to hear about another "senior little one" playing in an orchestra. My 5yo just started in an orchestra this past week and is thrilled. She's been waiting to be part of orchestra for at least two years. She's only playing 3 of the shorter easier pieces of the orchestra's larger repertoire but she's working eagerly away at them.

I agree that the scheduling and structure can seem like a lot to unschoolers. It only works for us because it's really the only structured thing we do. Your dd sounds like she has even more than mine, though. Our lessons are only 30 minutes, and group class and orchestra alternate weeks. Recitals come up only once or twice a year (we have no accompanist in the region) and group ensemble performances maybe four or five times a year. So not too much extra stuff. Though she's recently started piano ... and that's adding a new layer.

Miranda

I am coming to grips with it. It is the only major structured activity we do. Dd is also in an ice skating class that I REALLY wish she would lose interest in. It is at a bad time for our family and I have nightmares about her turning into one of those skating divas that need to be at the cold rink at 4am:cold: Not really a legitimate fear....but yeah.

Maybe I am just a slacker:)

Anyway, dd had a recital last night. It was a Halloween recital and they had to wear their costumes. Dd was a ghost and I was terrified that she would not be able to see well and trip on the way to the stage. All was fine though. She could not make eye contact with the accompanist so that was tricky, but she got through it OK. I love watching the really little ones do their Twinkles. There was also one girl that graduated from book 10 recently that did an unaccompanied Mendelson concerto that was quite impressive. They did their recital at a nursing home so there was a HUGE crowd. Good practice.

I have to take dd to my own orchestra practice next week because dh will be out of town on business and we could not find a sitter. It might be fun for her to sit in the wind section and see what it is like to be in a big orchestra.

[greencat]

They did their recital at a nursing home so there was a HUGE crowd. Good practice.

Great idea!

[Yooper]

It is actually a perfect option. Most nursing homes have a large dining room (or other large room) with plenty of chairs, a tuned piano, a very appreciative audience, and the space is free:)

We have about half of our events in nursing homes.

[insahmniak]

I agree - what a great idea for a recital venue! I'm going to mention that to our teacher.

I'm currently dealing with the issue of learning bowing. DD can pick things up very very quickly by ear. As a result, she stars playing pieces of pieces that are down the road - sometimes much further down the road. It's been cute and fun and I've enjoyed hearing her, but we've had some issues with having to "relearn" the bowing parts of pieces. It's tough! She already knows the notes and frankly doesn't seem to care one whit about the bowing.

It's gotten to the point that I'm not playing the upcoming recorded pieces for her because I'm afraid she's going to jump ahead while I'm doing dishes or something and I won't get a chance to help her with the bowing.

To be honest this "fixing the bow" part exhausts me!

[Yooper]

Is it possible to look at the bowings ahead of time and play singing games with them? Dd likes to singing the songs either the the notes or the bowings in the tune. Like in Minuet I she sings "D D D" or "down up-up down....." It sounds complicated but it gets catchy after awhile. "Jingle Bells" and "Carole of the Bells" are especially fun when singing the bowings.....can you tell we are working on the Holiday concert music? I catch myself doing it and I am not a string player.....

[greencat]

How do you like the "Suzuki Journal," the bi-monthly mag from SAA?

[ebethmom]

There are always great articles in the SAA quarterly journal. I wish all of my students' parents would read it!

There have been times when I had to let my SAA membership lapse. Just couldn't fit it in the budget! I really missed getting the journal during those times. It helps me stay connected with the rest of the Suzuki community.

[Malva]

Hello everyone,

I'm not a true Suzuki mama but I'm hoping someone here can maybe help me. My 9yo dd started piano in September this year with a teacher who is very Suzuki inspired in her methods.

She's been playing Cuckoo and Lightly Row with both hands for the last few weeks and the thing we're working on this week is playing the right hand louder than the left one. So far, she's having no luck managing that and I'm wondering if any of you have tips on how to break it down. I've been having her playing both hands lightly thinking it's probably easier to increase the intensity on one side than decrease it on one side but I don't play myself so I don't know if it's a good approach or if there is a better way to get where we want to go.

Any tips?

[moominmamma]

the thing we're working on this week is playing the right hand louder than the left one. So far, she's having no luck managing that and I'm wondering if any of you have tips on how to break it down.

My dd (5) has been doing piano for a couple of months. My 14yo has been doing piano for almost 9 years but her beginnings were so long ago that I forget how this was introduced. My 5yo's teacher has had her practice just two notes (say, middle C with 3rd finger LH and treble C one octave up with 3rd finger RH) at the same time. The aim at first was to have one C speak and the other C key move a little but not speak. That took a week of solid work to get it consistent. Once she could do this reliably with all finger combinations and then again with the opposite C speaking, she was to make one C speak and the other C 'whisper'. She's still working on that, although she's keen on this whole skill and is also trying to get the same effect into a basic hands-in-parallel five-finger exercise, with partial success.

Miranda

[ShanaT]

Hi!
I just wanted to drop a note to say that we've finally come out of our rut! All it took was a Thanksgiving concert on the table after dinner and Jingle Bells. We may struggle with Lightly Row forever, but at least he's having fun, and sounding good again. Oh, and we went to see a great bluegrass band with a crazy fiddle player who just happened to teach Suzuki and was able to inspire him during the break. She gave me some great advice and said that we're kidding ourselves if we think the child believes that Lightly Row is great music. We've got to play them great music and explain that they need to get THROUGH LR to get to the good stuff. That approach really resonated with Gus. We've ordered the second CD for expanded listening and I hope to add 3 and 4 as well.
Hope to hear more from others, its inspiring and fun.
Shana:joy:

[ebethmom]

Hi!
We've got to play them great music and explain that they need to get THROUGH LR to get to the good stuff. That approach really resonated with Gus. We've ordered the second CD for expanded listening and I hope to add 3 and 4 as well.
:

Congratulations on the break through! The more you listen, the better it goes. In his book Teaching from the Balance Point, Ed Kreitman recommends buying the Book 4 CD and listening to it right from the start, especially on those days that you just can't face another Twinkle! Book 4 is the book that introduces pieces written especially for the violin. Books 1 - 3 are transcriptions of pieces written for other instruments and ensembles.

I think you've gotten some great advice. You might want to check out Barbara Barber's series Solos for Young Violinists. She has 8 volumes, and all have CD's. Many Suzuki teachers use these books to supplement the Suzuki volumes. The performances on the CD's are similar to the Suzuki recordings, solid, standard vanilla. (But not terribly exciting.) They are a good starting point with repertoire that the student will learn in the next few years.

Brian Lewis has a great CD out called The Hot Canary. You can find it at Young Musicians ( ymonline.com ). My kids like to listen to Sarah Chang, too. They like the encore pieces best, short and flashy!

[Malva]

My 5yo's teacher has had her practice just two notes (say, middle C with 3rd finger LH and treble C one octave up with 3rd finger RH) at the same time. The aim at first was to have one C speak and the other C key move a little but not speak.

Miranda

Thanks Miranda,
We're trying that!

[Kappa]

I wanted to buy my baby a Schoenhut toy piano, just so that we can have a "piano" around. We just moved to an apartment and there is no room for our upright. Please tell me, if I give a toy piano to a 10 month old will he learn bad form as his fine motor skills are developing? I had a piano in the house as baby and it didn't result in any difficulty, but reading the posts about box violins, I started thinking about this. Thank you!

Also, in my area they have Kodomo music classes for the small toddlers. The only Mommy and me classes for infants I have found are Music Together and Kindermusik. Which program is better? Does it just depend on who's teaching?

[ShanaT]

We did Music Together for years and just loved it. We still pull out the CDs and play and dance after our violin practice time. If we could afford another activity, I think we'd still be doing Music Together.

[greencat]

Sorry to jump in here. I have a quick question regarding a protocol, or etiquette, if you will.

Do you pay your teacher when your kids have "Graduation" recital? This is not a part of school, but something we did aside as many of Suzuki Families do when they are done with Book I or Twinkle. I paid the piano accompanist, as I made arrangements for the recital but wondering if I am to pay our teacher as well?

I will write about how the recital went later.

Thanks!

[ebethmom]

Do you pay your teacher when your kids have "Graduation" recital?


I wouldn't expect to be paid for a student's Book recital. A teacher appreciation gift would be a thoughtful gesture.

Good luck with the recital! I can't wait to hear how it goes.

[insahmniak]

At DD's latest recital I tried to pay the teacher but she just wouldn't accept. Our teacher has a heart of pure gold and doesn't seem to be very focused on compensation (she charges about half the going rate). We do automatic payments to her through our bank and have :D overpayed :D her a few times and she cited that as a reason we shouldn't pay. I brought her a very nice arrangement of flowers and was sure to publicly express my appreciation of her at the recital.

Congratulations on the recital! :joy:

[greencat]

Thanks, Suzuki Moms! I guess I wasn't too far off from the protocol. I think I am going to give her Chartism’s present in the equivalent amount to what I paid for the piano accompanist with gift receipt. She is newly wed, so I have good idea to what she may enjoy.

Our Graduation Recital for Book I and Twinkle went fine. To make a long story short, my DD was done with Book I back in May, but we lost our school with the flood. Currently, the school is renting a basement of a church to continue our lessons. So, arranging our teacher's schedule, finding a piano accompanist, and asking the church to let us use their room for recital took a lot of time to coordinate. The church was kind enough to let us use their service room, with beautiful stained glass windows. (I think they call it “Sanctuary.”)

Anyway, we were not sure if we were able to have the graduation recital after all because of the flood. Yet, I got the o.k. from the church to use their service room last week, and a spot in our teacher's schedule for Dec. 5th. I had trouble finding a piano accompanist with such a short notice, but another violin teacher had agreed to play the piano for us on Monday. (Actually, he is our teacher for the group lessons. Our school is part of Cedar Rapids Symphony Orchestra and all the teachers play in the orchestra. Each group teacher has students for private/individual lessons, but some of us have different teacher for the group lesson and private lesson.)

I had no time to snail mail invitations as I planned, but get on the phone and E-mail. Fair amount of people attended, despite the weather. The recital lasted about an hour. My DD started with Gavotte and down to Lightly Row: Some with piano accompaniment and some with harmony played on violin by her private lesson teacher. She took a seat after the Lightly Row, and my son played Twinkle variations next. Then, my DD got back on the stage with him to play Twinkle Theme together with my son. After the Theme, he played the theme again, but with my DD playing the harmony with him. They both did very well: )

Of course, I had my husband video taped the whole thing. I took few pictures as they were playing. One of the photos will be this year's holiday card. My friends brought bouquet of flowers for DD and DS. They felt like a star, and felt very proud of their achievement.

Next is preparing for the Holiday Pop. Cedar Rapids Symphony always have Holiday Pop for Christmas. This is one of the biggest events of the year for the symphony. They usually have Suzuki students play, along with their Children's Choir group. They also invite various local high school students/group to play or some one to read story, etc. Well, this year will be played in a much smaller scale, since we lost the Paramount Theater with the flood. It was the home for the Cedar Rapids Symphony Orchestra. We will play at an auditorium of a college. My DD is one of the three to play solo. She is playing Gavotte. She is also having her regular recital on the 15th, and participating on a talent show for her gymnastics’ group.

My house is a mess, with a huge pile of laundry... I am planning to make her dress for the Holiday Pop... I'm just glad we are not expecting any guests over holiday this year. I think I will be able to have my decent sleep : )

Thanks for reading.

Greencat

[ebethmom]

I'm so sorry to hear of the flood damage to the school and the Paramount Theater. I know that the Paramount had been recently renovated, too.

I used to play in a quartet with the concertmaster of the CRSO, Taki. Small world! He is a very gifted violinist. When I was a kid, Lisa Ponton was my idol! I heard her play at Stevens Point when we went for the summer institutes.

Congratulations on your kids' great recital!

[greencat]

I think the Internet makes the world a lot smaller place, don't you agree? 'Taki' is still here. I think he will always be here. However, I don't think he really enjoys speaking with me, since I speak to him in his native language and he gets caught off guard with that (?) I have only being with CRSS for few years, and the little as I know, the CRSS had a lot of political turbulence as well as financial difficulties. I'm sure it is going to take a long time to rebuild after this flood. The school also was renovated couple of years ago. Now, they are all gone with the sludge. It is a common phrase here at CRSS "Because of the flood..."

Anyway, I'm glad the big recital is over. Thanks for your support : )

[greencat]

by the way, now I feel the world is a lot smaller via Internet; does anyone know Martha Shackford? Please, PM me, if you have her contact info.

thanks!

[greencat]

Thank you with the contact info of Martha.
Wadoyouno? MDM is the place, hun?

Now, I am able to mail a dvd of my kids' graduation recital to her. I'll post her reaction here after I get in touch with her again.

Thanks,
Greencat

[greencat]

by the way, Lisa is our new Suzuki Cordinator. I don't know anything about her. To be honest, I didn't even know that she played violin. Shame, hun?

I don't think Taki will appreciate, if I went up to him and said I know someone from his past. If you are interested to contact him yourself, I can probably give you his Email addy. But, you have to let me know how surprised he was to hear from you later. :wink

[littletravelers]

:joy:hey, i just found these twinkle mats. (http://www.twinklemat.com) they seem great!

[wyovol]

Hi.

I was a Suzuki violin student from age 5-12. I don't have a great ear, even with the training, but I love to play. I haven't played my violin in years, but I do play my flute occasionally, mostly at church. I also play the handbells at church.

DS is almost three and wants so much to make music. I'm going to check with some local teachers to see about observing some classes.

Would it be detrimental to future lessons if I got him a box violin to "play"? Would it reinforce bad habits if we decide not to start lessons for a year or two?

[moominmamma]

Would it be detrimental to future lessons if I got him a box violin to "play"? Would it reinforce bad habits if we decide not to start lessons for a year or two?

No, I don't think so at all. I think it's the ongoing allure of "playing" and making a sound on a real instrument that tends to produce bad habits. (I confess my kids all had real instruments quite young, before starting formal lessons, and I was just careful to gently correct improper violin position and remind them that there was a correct way to hold the bow, and did they want me to help them do so ... etc..)

Miranda

[theretohere]

Hi- I have a question. I'd really love to get my 4.5 year old DD into Suzuki, but the nearest teacher I can find is 140 miles away.
Is there a way to do it just parent instructed? I can play piano, but I wasn't Suzuki trained.
TIA!

[greencat]

Boy, I won't drive that far, but I knew a family who did. They did because they loved the teacher, and they were homeschooling which did not have the time strain of 'after school' schedule.

We had several different teachers since we stared. Each and every one had different essence. We love our current teacher, but planning to transfer to a different music school. The drive to each place is about the same, but the other music school have string orchestra besides group and private lesson for students who can read music. My DD is up for a challenge, and she is the type of a child who thrive under competition.

So, I guess you have to choose driving that far is what you won't mind doing, and the main reason to go attend the school is worth the drive.

[theretohere]

Boy, I won't drive that far, but I knew a family who did. They did because they loved the teacher, and they were homeschooling which did not have the time strain of 'after school' schedule.

We had several different teachers since we stared. Each and every one had different essence. We love our current teacher, but planning to transfer to a different music school. The drive to each place is about the same, but the other music school have string orchestra besides group and private lesson for students who can read music. My DD is up for a challenge, and she is the type of a child who thrive under competition.

So, I guess you have to choose driving that far is what you won't mind doing, and the main reason to go attend the school is worth the drive.

I was hoping not to drive that far- I was asking if I could do Suzuki at home. I know we'd miss the group thing, other then the 2 kids together, but my options are slim here.

[megincl]

We're in the depths of winter here, but I'll be registering us for an institute (maybe two?) soon.

We'll be going to Ogontz (http://ogontzsuzukiinstitute.com/) in New Hampshire, which was amazing, terrific, fabulous -- we loved it last year! :joy: We're going to go one of the weeks in July....any MDC families want to join us?

Also, any other great institutes we should be checking out in the Northeast area?

Thanks!
megin

[moominmamma]

Hi- I have a question. I'd really love to get my 4.5 year old DD into Suzuki, but the nearest teacher I can find is 140 miles away. Is there a way to do it just parent instructed? I can play piano, but I wasn't Suzuki trained.
TIA!

It's certainly possible. I started my eldest alone as a parent, before we had a Suzuki program here. However, I did do two teacher-training courses before starting her off, and I had grown up steeped in the Suzuki philosophy and approach. It was very tough going for the first couple of years until we developed a Suzuki community to support her learning (and my Suzuki parenting).

Unless you're willing to go and get that training I'd say no. The Suzuki approach isn't a "method" as much as it's an approach that's rooted in developmental and educational philosophy and applied flexibly using a pedagogy that's individualized and passed on to new teachers by master teachers. There's no instruction book or manual.

Unless you're going to do the teacher training, I'd look for something more like a traditional primer series where the learning steps are all mapped out for you as a parent.

Miranda

[theretohere]

It's certainly possible. I started my eldest alone as a parent, before we had a Suzuki program here. However, I did do two teacher-training courses before starting her off, and I had grown up steeped in the Suzuki philosophy and approach. It was very tough going for the first couple of years until we developed a Suzuki community to support her learning (and my Suzuki parenting).

Unless you're willing to go and get that training I'd say no. The Suzuki approach isn't a "method" as much as it's an approach that's rooted in developmental and educational philosophy and applied flexibly using a pedagogy that's individualized and passed on to new teachers by master teachers. There's no instruction book or manual.

Unless you're going to do the teacher training, I'd look for something more like a traditional primer series where the learning steps are all mapped out for you as a parent.

Miranda

That answered my question completely, although now I'm bummed. :) Thanks!

[hippymomma69]

Q for the suzuki teachers on here:

I was a suzuki kid (played for 14 years as a kid - age 4 to 18) then I stopped for 20 years, now I'm picking it up again.

I think I'm interested in doing the steps to becoming a suzuki teacher - but I was wondering if there have been any big differences I need to know about (I'm getting used to the "americanisms" like missisippi hot dog instead of taka!).

How difficult is it to get through the audition? I'm not a professional musician but I did go through all 10 books (and then some) and have been playing Celtic fiddle for the last year and a half. I'm boning up on the classical stuff but do you think it will be hard for me to pass the audition/do the trainings if I was not a music major in college or not a professional performer?

I've also been toying with just going back to get a degree but I'm not really interested in being a professional performer necessarily - just a fiddler and eventually a teacher. I really believe in the method though and think it's the best kind of preparation for whatever kind of playing you want to do later....

so what do you think??? any advice?
tia
peace,
robyn

[ebethmom]

:wave Hi Robyn! I know that SAA has tightened their audition standards. But it sounds like your playing levels would certainly meet those standards. The first movement of either Mozart Concerto from the Books is the comprehensive audition piece. If your comprehensive audition is accepted, then you can take any level training without reauditioning. But you don't have to send in the comprehensive piece for the early book auditions.

In the teacher training courses that I've taken, there has been a broad spectrum of playing and teaching levels.

Have you checked the SAA website? I haven't looked at the early level requirements lately. I've been focusing on the comprehesive levels for viola and violin. The scholarship application deadline is coming up on February 15.

Is there a University in your area that offers long term training? There are a few schools that offer degrees in Suzuki Pedagogy, and quite a few that offer Suzuki coursework.

[hippymomma69]

Thanks for the response so quickly!

Yes I've checked out the website and it seems pretty straightforward. Because I've just started back and have not really been focusing on classical stuff, I'm not ready to do a comprehensive (one of the mozart pieces)...the piece for book 1-8 is the main piece I workshoped back in the day with Bill Starr and Hiroko (ack forgot her last name! my dad used to run a suzuki institute for 10 years - so I was just a kid when I had her) - a bach concerto. But I think I just want to dip my toe in at first and just do the basic 1-4 audition for the moment (which is a seitz and the vivaldi 3rd movement). I'm still trying to get things like my vibrato and bowing technique up to snuff/to my satisfaction - I might need a little more time before the March deadline for auditioning if I did the Bach piece.

We're getting ready to move and I've checked out programs in the two possible areas we are moving to - there is a degree program with suzuki training in eastern north carolina but nothing closeby to Austin. I've been a little frustrated because it seems like most music programs are geared to the new college student (you have to take a bunch of liberal arts courses) and the masters programs mostly (not all) assume you have a music undergrad degree. And of course they are ALL focused on becoming a CLASSICAL player so my fiddling would have to be a side thing :(

I'm also kind of wondering about how to you "break in" - do you substitute teach at a suzuki school? Do you just jump right in and start signing up students (doesn't it take a while to get all 4 first books done? I think I could do book 1 and 2 this summer but not sure about getting the rest done before the summer is over). Did anyone try the apprentice route to becoming a suzuki teacher (there is one guy in Austin who is registered as a trainer I could apprentice with).

sorry I have so many questions but any help you can point me to is great!
peace,
robyn

[ebethmom]

I live about an 1 1/2 hours from Hiroko Driver. She's teaching Suzuki teacher training courses at U of L again. I wish I could take some, but it's not that season of life for me. It's just impossible to fit in observations, take the course, homeschool my kids, teach 28 other kids how to play the violin, and play in two orchestras. (Sorry for the mini rant! I really would like to take some courses, and I'm feeling a tiny bit deprived.)

I've only done short term training. Wait, I take that back. I took two levels for Master's credit. But I found the content . . . lacking. So I didn't register those with SAA.

If I had it all to do over, I would do my training through a long term degree program. Taking the short term courses in the summer can sometimes be a piecemeal experience. I haven't done any apprenticeship work, mostly because life interferes. Both long term training and apprenticeships have the advantage of real life time. You get to see lessons progress in a more realistic way. Institutes are great, but the condensed, warp-speed lessons are much different than weekly lessons.

I don't know of many situations that would call for substitute teaching. The only time I've had another teacher step in was for my first maternity leave. Once you have your Book 1 training, you can open up shop. I know plenty of teachers that stay one step ahead of their students with training. (And quite a few who wing it without training.) With your background as a Suzuki kid, you'll have plenty of resources.

[hippymomma69]

thanks that is so helpful! lots of good feedback and things to think about!
peace,
robyn

[Mama Shifra]

robyn--

If you want to pursue a degree in music education so that you can teach in a public school, you may find that the audition requirements are not as rigorous as in a conservatory or performance oriented program. While you would probably still need to pursue Suzuki training elsewhere, with a degree in music education, you will probably always be able to get a job :wink

[hippymomma69]

thanks - good tip!

are music teachers really in that much demand? what about the suzuki in the schools program? anyone know about that?
peace,
robyn

eta: I've been a bit intimidated by the music education programs because many of them seem to assume that you know piano/and or have voice training...and the stuff about conducting seems kind of foreign to me - but maybe I just need to find the right program?
thx

[Mama Shifra]

are music teachers really in that much demand? what about the suzuki in the schools program? anyone know about that?
peace,
robyn

eta: I've been a bit intimidated by the music education programs because many of them seem to assume that you know piano/and or have voice training...and the stuff about conducting seems kind of foreign to me - but maybe I just need to find the right program?
thx

Robyn--

Just to let you know, I am not a music teacher, nor did I major in music! I only took about 2 years of piano, so I am certainly no expert.

That said, my husband is a principal in an elementary school and did have a hand in hiring a music teacher this year, so I saw from the sidelines some issues that were raised. One book that I read during the process was Inside the Music Classroom: Teaching the Art with Heart by Patricia Bourne; she raised an issue that you brought up--what if your primary instrument is not piano? Most music degrees, whether in music education or not, insist on the graduate having "competency" in piano. Some schools want more that just basic competancy for their music teachers.

Also many schools, in anticipation that you may conduct a choir or band, will insist that you get major competancy in all forms of instruments used in an orchestra as well as voice training. So a music education degree is very credit intense--you will not have many electives because you will use most of your credits trying to fulfill your music degree requirements.

You will probably want to check out www.menc.org (The National Association for Music Education). They have forums discussing music education in all its forms.

[hippymomma69]

thanks helpful tip!
peace,
robyn

[insahmniak]

Anyone have a favorite studio music stand? I've been thinking of passing along our black Manhasset to our wonderful teacher. She now uses a folding stand - takes two hands so not easy to adjust. What I like about Manhasset (orchestra) style stands is that they are typically easy to adjust with one hand. What I don't like is that they feel cold. Wood ones I've found are very spendy, though, and they also seem to be two-handed. (Knob tightener?)

So are the orchestra types still the best out there?

[Whistler]

Hi, just found this tribe and am happily throwing in my lot!

My DD, age 4 is a Suzuki beginner, DH and I both have music degrees from a University but were not Suzuki-trained as children, unfortunately. We both wish we'd started younger.

DD loves her violin. We started her young, probably too young, but I had studied so much about brain development and young children that I was excited to get her going. We haven't pushed her though, let her take her own pace. Even now she is slipping into review mode and we're going along with that.

Her teacher is doing something non-Suzuki and that is starting her reading music already. She has her clap rhythms and read pitches and look at the music when she is doing her songs. Part of me is for that and part of me wonders if it is too soon. The thing is, DD LOVES the reading! More than playing her violin, actually. She'll vocalize the most difficult rhythms accurately the first time. It totally blows us away. But now at her practice times she wants to do rhythm reading and NOT play her violin! Any thoughts from other moms and teachers?

[Stacymom]

So who all is doing institutes this summer? I just registered for ISSI in SLC Ut for the third year in a row. Its going to be a trick getting ready for it, because her teacher wanted us to push her a little bit and enroll her in a book 4 class, even though she's not yet finished with book 3. I'm ok with it because her teacher is the institute director, but I'm feeling the Seitz concerto pressure! Where's everyone going this year?

Insahmniak, I really like my manhasset stand in my studio. Its easy to use and doesn't take up too much room. I actually really, really dislike my wooden stand. We've had to repair it so many times that I'm afraid to really use it. The metal parts tend to get really stuck realy easily too.

Whistler, have you tried leaving the rhythm games/motereading things until the end to be a "reward?" My dd's favorit thing is the new piece so I often leave that till the end so that she's motivated to finish practicing. You could also write all the little thigns that she needs to do during a practice session on pieces of paper and let her draw them out of a hat as she practices, or you choose what she does, then she chooses. Anything to make her feel like she has some bit of control over what she's doing during practice time. HTH.

[insahmniak]

Stacymom - we just registered for SLC too! Just got it in under the March 1 early deadline. T's in the middle of Gavotte (Mignon) and it's been interesting. The tune seemed familiar to me but when I went to play it none of the bowings felt comfortable. I finally got suspicious and dug through my old Suzuki books and sure enough, I skipped it for some reason. Anyhow T and I are learning it together and she's at the key change.

Super super excited about SLC. We signed up for the chorus enrichment again - but it incorporates movement, too. Last year it was pretty fast-paced and a good workout for the noggin.

I did end up passing along the Manhasset stand to our teacher and she loves it! So glad I didn't bother with a wood stand. Sounds like it wouldn't work well for a busy studio.

Can't wait for the SLC play-in!

[ShanaT]

I'd love to learn more about institute, particularly for young players. DS is 5 and starting Oh Come Little Children. There is an institute in Pittsburgh that is convenient to my in-laws so it would be pretty easy to. I'm just not sure he's ready for 3 hours of classes a day with a strange teacher and kids. He's very motivated by seeing other players, which we don't get enough of, so in that way it could be very good. I guess I just don't know enough about it.

[megincl]

So who all is doing institutes this summer? I just registered for ISSI in SLC Ut for the third year in a row. Its going to be a trick getting ready for it, because her teacher wanted us to push her a little bit and enroll her in a book 4 class, even though she's not yet finished with book 3. I'm ok with it because her teacher is the institute director, but I'm feeling the Seitz concerto pressure! Where's everyone going this year?

Insahmniak, I really like my manhasset stand in my studio. Its easy to use and doesn't take up too much room. I actually really, really dislike my wooden stand. We've had to repair it so many times that I'm afraid to really use it. The metal parts tend to get really stuck realy easily too.

Whistler, have you tried leaving the rhythm games/motereading things until the end to be a "reward?" My dd's favorit thing is the new piece so I often leave that till the end so that she's motivated to finish practicing. You could also write all the little thigns that she needs to do during a practice session on pieces of paper and let her draw them out of a hat as she practices, or you choose what she does, then she chooses. Anything to make her feel like she has some bit of control over what she's doing during practice time. HTH.

We are going to Ogontz Suzuki Institute in NH this summer. First session. We LOVED it last year when DS was just 5. To speak to a 5yo beginner's enjoyment, being immersed in music from many different perspectives was really great for him. It actually pushed him past a rut (he was really struggling with Long Long Ago) and he's been flying since. So I think it can be great for the little ones/beginners.

We'd love to meet some folks at Ogontz this year!

[Stacymom]

I'd love to learn more about institute, particularly for young players. DS is 5 and starting Oh Come Little Children. There is an institute in Pittsburgh that is convenient to my in-laws so it would be pretty easy to. I'm just not sure he's ready for 3 hours of classes a day with a strange teacher and kids. He's very motivated by seeing other players, which we don't get enough of, so in that way it could be very good. I guess I just don't know enough about it.

Go go go! I can't say enough good about it, really. The teachers are excellent, and will work really hard to make the classes fun. It won't be three solid hours of playing- there will be lots of breaks, lots of activities, etc. It will change both of you.

[MayDayMommy]

Hi,

I hope you don't mind me popping in to ask a quick question to you Suzuki pros.

We are considering starting DS when he is three. However, we were planning to do piano, assuming we can find a suzuki teacher. Is there a reason to do violin rather than piano? It seems that that is the more standard/popular instrument, but it is "wrong" to do piano instead?

Thanks!

[PiePie]

I have a related Q: how did you pick the instrument? where we want DD to take Suzuki lessons when she is 4, they offer violin, cello, and flute, but flute only if you have had prior formal training on piano and voice. There is no one in my area (to my knowledge) who offers piano/keyboard lessons to a 3yo, and i don't really see the point of voice lessons, so flute is out. my instinct is to let dd choose btwn violin and cello. my brother finally succeeded (relatively) with his 3rd instrument once he chose it. personally, i lean toward the cello because squeaky beginners violin sounds awful -- believe me, i was the squeaker! dh leans toward the violin for ease of transit. (we could get piano or flute lessons by suzuki method elsewhere but it would be farther away and i am not interested in wasting time on travel.)

[Stacymom]

PiePie, take this for what its worth... I worked in music retail for 10 years, and there is nothing more difficult than finding good, playable tiny cellos. Little violins are much easier to come by. You can find cellos once they get to about an 1/4 size or so fairly easily, but before that, its really touch and go. Not that I don't think cello is cool, but it would be harder to start a really young child on cello. Have you observed any lessons? Do you have a teacher in mind? You might want to talk with a teacher and see what they say as well.

And Mayday, I don't have a lot of experience with Suzuki piano, but I know that its really popular here, and there's tons of little ones playing. Again, just find a good, experienced teacher, and you can be on your way!

[Whistler]

So who all is doing institutes this summer? I just registered for ISSI in SLC Ut for the third year in a row. Its going to be a trick getting ready for it, because her teacher wanted us to push her a little bit and enroll her in a book 4 class, even though she's not yet finished with book 3. I'm ok with it because her teacher is the institute director, but I'm feeling the Seitz concerto pressure! Where's everyone going this year?


I wanted to get to either the institute in Tri-Cities or the one in BC last summer but it did not happen. This summer it may not happen either because of the new baby. But who knows??? I love to go to one, it just means traveling 4 to seven hours to get there, depending which we choose.

[Bird Girl]

We decided against the Salt Lake City (Intermountain) institute this year because my DD is the only one ready for it. Next year, my son will be ready to go, too, so we think we'll start next year. (My dd will probably still be in book 4, so plenty of stuff to work on.) We've gone every year to our tiny local institute, at Crowden School in Berkeley, CA, and it's always great and amazing. There's something about working every day for four days that really takes you to the next level, or at least, that's what my DD has found.

[moominmamma]

We are lucky to have our very own institute right in our village (the one in BC that Whistler mentioned). My four kids will be attending; it's the fifth year for the elder ones, and the third year for my 6yo being fully enrolled. They love it, even though (or perhaps partly because) it's small and predictable and they're pretty much the most advanced kids.

We also have a traditional (non-Suzuki) music school here for two weeks afterwards and my eldest two usually do orchestra and chamber music there, everyone does a choir, and my youngest and eldest will also be doing the piano master classes.

Because we are rural and isolated from a significant musical community most of the year, summers are our chance to bring the masses to us and fill up our musical tanks. We pack as much in as we can. Last year my eldest did an additional two Suzuki institutes (Montreal and Edmonton) during July as well.

Miranda

[greencat]

It's hard to leave a teacher who nurtured you, and grew under. Yet, the tough part is meeting a new teacher and finding the harmony. We are transferring this Fall to a new music school. Any advice?

[Tassy]

Yikes. This is so much harder than finding a violin was....I am not having any fun or luck. She has her heart set on cello and I didnt realize that I am going to have to shell out $500 just to get started! She has been going to music classes with the instructor and has used the xylophone and the 1/8 that the teacher has which is too big (she just turned 4)

Does anyone have any suggestions???

TIA!
Tassy

DS 7.5 (3.5 yrs on the violin) DD 4, twin DDs 2

[megincl]

We rent our cello and started with a 1/10 size. We're close to Johnson Strings, who do a huge rental business. I know that they ship rentals, so you might want to check them out.

Good luck!

[ebethmom]

So who all is doing institutes this summer? Where's everyone going this year?



We're going to Stevens Point! I'm doing a unit of teacher training. Just found out today that I got a scholarship!! Yea!!

I think my family will join me for one week. I'm not sure how we'll work that yet. I'd like to stay for the second week and take the Practicum course, but I'm not sure we can swing that and tuition for ds. If I take the Practicum, then dh would have to go to ds's classes with dd in tow.

I added up all of the options tonight. All of them are pretty expensive, even with a scholarship. But I'm so excited about going! I went to Stevens Point four summers when I was a kid. I have great memories! Lots of my teacher friends will be there, too.

I'm also teaching at the Louisville Institute in June. That should be fun. One of my good friends is teaching there, too.

Kind of a strange summer, teaching at one Institute and still doing teacher training at another. I've done that before, and it's just an odd mix. I wish I had been able to complete my training back when I wanted to. I was cooking right along, then life (kids!) got in the way.

[Stacymom]

Elizabeth, that's awesome! What unit are you taking? I feel ya- I did five units in one calendar year, and haven't been able to do any since. I would really like to get book 6 out of the way, and Ed Sprunger (who's one of my favorites) is doing a teacher training course this year at ISSI on group classes, which would be fantastic. The problem is, my 7 year old is doing the book 4 class, my 5 year old will be in the daycare, and my 7 month old will be 6 weeks post-op. Yeah, not the ideal year for me to be taking more teacher training courses... :o

Yup, institute is expensive! I'm fortunate that I do a little bit of work for ours, so I get a tuition voucher in exchange. But, we still have to pay for daycare, meals, and her extra classes. Plus, since we moved last year, we're going ot have to spend the week of Institute at my parent's house. Its going to be an interesting week!

[ebethmom]

Hi Stacy! I'm taking (mumble, mumble). Ah-hem, Unit 4. I feel so far behind! Especially since I'm teaching kids in Book 6!

Five units in one year! That's intense! I took three units one summer, and that was information overload. When I win the Powerball, I'll probably get a Master's in Suzuki Pedagogy just for fun.

Ed Sprunger is teaching Book 4 at Stevens Point, then he's doing the Practicum during the second week. I would love to do both! But I just don't think we can swing it.

I looked up the tuition/fees/room&board for Ottawa (Sound Encounters) this morning. It is far more reasonable. One of my friends is teaching Book 4 there. I think Ottawa might be a little bit closer, too.

I'm also trying to figure out my summer performance schedule. I'll have to give up a few weddings for Ottawa or Stevens Point. But I'd rather not give up a show!

[moominmamma]

Hi Stacy! I'm taking (mumble, mumble). Ah-hem, Unit 4. I feel so far behind! Especially since I'm teaching kids in Book 6!

Well, if it makes you feel any better I've taught kids up through Book 8, and have taught at institutes, and I only have Units 1A/1B.

I've taken 1A three times and 1B twice, plus Ed Sprunger's overview of Books 1-4, plus I've taught alongside and co-taught with my mom, who is an SAA teacher trainer, for the past 10 years. But we've never formalized it as a "practicum" arrangement, so my registered teacher training stops at Gossec Gavotte.

We live many many hours away from institutes that offer teacher training, and when we have managed to go I've been the solo Suzuki parent to at least two enrolled children (dh cannot ever get time off in the summer) so I cannot possibly do teacher training at the same time.

So there you go. You're far ahead of me with your units.

Miranda

[Mary-Beth]

Is this thread still active??

My dd has just polished up Gavotte and has been reviewing all of book 1 (well we always do...but more so now) We are going to have a party to celebrate but I'm not sure how to do this exactly.
I don't have a piano or much space for a recital but she would like to play a few pieces.
Has anyone else had a graduation celebration after book 1?

[ebethmom]

Hi Mary Beth! You might see if your dd's teacher could attend and play duets.

In our program, we have Book Recitals several times a year. We usually have 4 - 8 kids who are finishing up a book. Each performer plays several pieces, then we have a short awards ceremony. Then we have cookies and punch!

[Mary-Beth]

That sounds great. I wish our teacher did that...she just leaves it up to the parents to have a party. The other kids moving onto book 2 from our group class (different teacher) aren't doing anything to celebrate. I wish there would be something for all the kids like you described.
I'm trying to find a date to have a party that our teacher can come to. If we manage that I'll see if she'll play some duets.
Thanks for the ideas!

[Qbear'smama]

the 1/8 that the teacher has which is too big (she just turned 4)

Maybe try looking for a 1/10? DD got her cello last night (luckily the school has loaners) and they had a 1/8 and a 1/10 cello to choose from. The teacher said 1/16s are very hard to come by, but I don't know if a 1/10 would be easier to find and may fit your DD. DD is tall for her age (3 in 11 days) so she could have used either one but the teacher opted for the 1/8. Good luck!

[Stacymom]

Small cellos are such a saga!

Here's something to be aware of- violin sizes are standard. You get a 1/4 size, and they are all going to be the same size across the board. But cellos are all different. German, Korean, European cellos are all larger than their Japanese counterparts. So, if you were to get a Japanese 1/8th and a German 1/8th, they would look like different sized cellos. Depending on how picky your teacher is and how music savvy your music store is, you may change cellos more than once within the same size. In other words, you may have a Japanese 1/8th, then need to move to a European 1/8th before moving to the 1/4 size.

You could try looking online, although please don't go the ebay route! You could try Shar or Southwest Strings- both of them are pretty reputable.

[honeybee]

My son is 5 and just started Suzuki violin this past January. He just started playing the bunny song and is pretty excited about it. However, the first recital is in a couple weeks, and he is already telling me he doesn't want to do a performance. We did convince him to play for his aunt and uncle the other night and he did really well, and seemed pleased when they clapped and told him he did a good job. Anyone have thoughts on how to prepare him? I didn't expect him to get cold feet. He has sung with church and with his preschool class for concerts and didn't have a problem at all.

[Bird Girl]

My dd was very anxious before her first couple of recitals and play-ins. We just assured her that she would be standing up with her friends, that even if she made a mistake she should just keep going, and that most likely, no one in the audience would hear or notice it. It helped her to point out mistakes in other kids' performances and notice how no one in the audience seemed to pay any attention to them. She got through the first couple of times, and then the anxiety really seemed to lessen.

Hope that helps.

[honeybee]

Thanks! He played for his group class today and seemed to gain confidence from it. It probably helped that the other kids didn't play perfectly, either. I think he'll gain confidence each time he gets a chance to practice.

[insahmniak]

Pizzicato advice?

DD's just finishing up Gavotte from Mignon and is getting pretty frustrated with the pizzicato at the end. She has done it without the bow and is comfortable with the notes and chords. But when we add the bow all heck breaks loose and we're quickly into tears.

I'm watching her bow hold when she goes to pluck and am trying to figure out how to help her transition the bow. Any suggestions? Her little finger just seems so small and getting a good pluck across all those four strings is a challenge for her. She has a pretty darn good bow hold, but I'm guessing it's still not as strong as it could be. Is there a trick I'm missing or is this just going to take a lot of time and happy thoughts?

[Stacymom]

Does your teacher want her to anchor her bow thumb against the fingerboard or let her hand be free? If she anchors her thumb on the corner of the fingerboard, then it will give her first finger more strength to pluck. I always tell my kids that your making "pincher" fingers when you pluck, and you need to make sure to roll your frog all the way into your hand. You can practice just rolling the bow in and out, in and out until she can do it really quickly.

Another thought: make sure she is plucking over the fingerboard, at a diagonal. As she strums the last two chords, she should start at the corner of the fingerboard when on the G string, and then pluch on a diagonal away from the bridge (towards the scroll) and that will help it be more ringing.

Also, make sure she's using the fat, fleshy part of her first finger instead of the tip. Hope that helps. It's super hard to explain over the internet, so let me know if you have more questions.

[insahmniak]

I'm pretty sure her teacher wants her to just stick her index finger out and pluck, keeping the bow hand fairly unchanged. Seems like a tall order for a not-quite six year old, but I'm a softie like that. :innocent

[moominmamma]

It's a tough thing, isn't it? Fiona had to grapple with it at age 4, and she has floppy lax little-kid joints. We practiced a lot of Twinkle Theme and Perpetual Motion pizzicato. These were especially challenging on the lower strings where she really had to hyper-flex the wrist in order to allow her index finger to reach over the strings and grab the D and G.

I remember she had a surprisingly easy time tunnelling her left hand fingers in the B-flat section, leaving the 3&4 down on the A whilst playing the F-natural low-1 on the E-string in the first sixteenth notes in that section. Her big sister was newly 6 when she worked on that and it was months before she could do it properly. I remembered thinking "this is too much more a 6-year-old," but her teacher expected it, and eventually she could do it. And then Fiona did it easily at 4.

So while I think age plays into the amount of challenge these technical passages present, it's not the whole story, and a cheerful persistence and belief that it's possible goes a long way. Good luck, and good cheer!

Miranda

[ebethmom]

Stacy and Miranda - do you teach pizzicato with the frog held in the palm? I've always taught that hold with the thumb anchored on the fingerboard, at least in the beginning. I have my students do back and forth exercises (regular bow hold to 'crab pincher' pizzicato bow hold). For me, pizz is easier with an anchored thumb.

[Stacymom]

I teach that section in Mignon with the frog anchored in the hand. I just figure, if I were playing it, I would roll my bow in. Especially since its at the end of the piece, and they don't have to go back to arco, they may as well anchor their thumb to get a stronger more ringing pizzicato. My daughter's teacher teaches it the opposite, however. I think its just one of those interpretation things. Regardless of which way you play it though, if you use the fat part of the finger, over the fingerboard, and strum diagonally, you'll get a better sound.

And Miranda, I know what you mean- I am astounded at what my little gir can do. I dreaded Mignon, and we conquered it in two weeks with minimal fuss. I've been dreading the Bach Bouree, but we're almost done with that, and she's playing it brilliantly. I love the way the Suzuki method works when all the pieces are in place. I can't believe how easily and smoothly she learns.

[honeybee]

Thanks! He played for his group class today and seemed to gain confidence from it. It probably helped that the other kids didn't play perfectly, either. I think he'll gain confidence each time he gets a chance to practice.

Just a little update. My son's recital went very well. He is very proud of himself, and now he wants to perform for everyone he can. He has also had another spurt of wanting to practice a lot. Things seem to be coming together more. He was getting really reluctant to practice before his recital, but now he's asking to play again. :thumb

[insahmniak]

So while I think age plays into the amount of challenge these technical passages present, it's not the whole story, and a cheerful persistence and belief that it's possible goes a long way. Good luck, and good cheer!

Miranda

She did it! Well, I mean she's doing it. We backed up and she practiced the pizzicato part without the bow until she had it down absolutely cold. Then she started with the bow hold - index finger extended. Now she's doing it quite well and it's honestly quite an impressive ending.

She's been practicing the accidental and key-change parts very slowly, over and over, for intonation. So now when she plays the whole piece we have some tempo issues. Our next step is to continue the intonation work but work toward an even tempo throughout.

Stacymom-
Two weeks! That does seem astounding! Mignon has been one of the slogging pieces for us with all those fingers moving near and far. I'm looking ahead to the rest of book 2 with trepidation on the inside and a cheerful "I think I can" on the outside.

honeybee-
I'm happy for you that son seems to have turned a corner with his interest in performance and play. I'm a huge fan of regular recitals and performance. I think it worked wonders for me as a young violinist - so I tend to give it lots of credit. We moved to a new home with a fairly undeveloped backyard, and I'm considering building a small stage/amphitheater in one corner, with power and light to it. Wouldn't that be fun?!

[honeybee]

Oooh, outdoor concerts at home sound great!

I've been evesdropping on all your technical conversations, and I admit it's making me feel a little intimidated! :o But I figure, we'll just take it one step at a time.

[Stacymom]

Stacymom-
Two weeks! That does seem astounding! Mignon has been one of the slogging pieces for us with all those fingers moving near and far. I'm looking ahead to the rest of book 2 with trepidation on the inside and a cheerful "I think I can" on the outside.


You know, Mignon went surprisingly fast, but we spent a long time on the Minuets at the end of Book 2. Then the first couple of book 3's were quick, and we spent f.o.r.e.v.e.r. on Humoresque. Part of the problem was that we trasferred to a new teacher during that time, and after Abby had completely learned and memorized it, we had to re-learn it with all the revised edition shifts. Then I had a baby and fell off the face of the earth for a month, and we had to learn a whole bunch of Christmas songs for her new studio. So we were stuck. For months. I still cringe hearing it. But then I was dreading Becker Gavotte, and it was nothing. I dunno. Sometimes, especially as a teacher, I dread pieces that are upcoming because students have struggled on it, but Abby will blow by it like its nothing.

Are you headed to to ISSI this year? She'll probably hear the Minuets so much at institute that she'll blow past them without any trouble.

[ebethmom]

I just got my first-draft schedule for my week of Institute teaching, and my big groups are Twinklers and PreTwinklers. I had the year off from teaching little bitties (my first in many years!) so now I have to dust off my "bag o'many tricks"! Teaching big groups of wigglers is part music lesson, part magic show.

Here is my list of activities so far :

Gummy lifesavers on the tip (bow control)
The Rocket Song
Tall Violin parade
Bow Hold parade
"What's in the case" game
"What is this" scale singing for parts of violin and bow
Magnetic fishing game (each fish has a variation with illustrations)
Memory Match (with simple activities like "Clap tucka tucka stop stop")
Hide the Turtle (hot and cold game)
Reading Zin, Zin, Zin a Violin (or not, depending on the group!)
Name that Tune

Hopefully the PreTwinklers will all know the Monkey Song and the Flower Song.

And of course playing what they know with activities for ensemble. I don't need any refresher for those! I just need to remember what kind of bunnies I have in my hat.

[insahmniak]

I've been evesdropping on all your technical conversations, and I admit it's making me feel a little intimidated! :o But I figure, we'll just take it one step at a time.

Yes, please do hang in there (here!). A lot of the technical issues seem pretty wrapped up in the context of the pieces that are introduced. Conversations about technical aspects about a Seitz concerto, for example, would totally fall off my radar, because quite honestly it's all I can do sometimes just to figure out what's in front of me at any given moment. I'm pretty grateful for active threads like this that I can search when the need arises, or ask the question again if I can't find the answer.


Are you headed to to ISSI this year? She'll probably hear the Minuets so much at institute that she'll blow past them without any trouble.

I'm so so so excited for ISSI this year! The words "Salt Lake" are in our daily conversations as we gear up for it. I learned a few lessons last time around and changed a few things. We signed up for fewer enrichment classes. It's a demanding week and having down time cannot be overrated. We also passed over the Chorus enrichment. The class we had last year demanded so much concentration at the end of the day, and lots of practice in the evenings when we needed to be working on violin for the work she was doing in master class and others. I do wish Chorus was more of a Choir experience, I guess. My dd loves to sing and it would be awesome to have something like that for her to do. I signed her up for an art class instead. It'll be something different, and hopefully free from any "final performance" pressure for the end of the week.

Stacymom - you're going to ISSI, yes? Are you going as teacher, parent, both? I sure wish I could bring our teacher from Boise along with us. She'd just love it.

Stacymom, ebethmom and Miranda - you're Suzuki teachers, yes? (Should we have a teacher roll-call here?) I wonder if any violin teachers here have had any success teaching their own children. One reason I ask is that I've been having issues with DD accepting advice or direction from me. It's generally of a technical nature, like violin or handwriting. So I've been relying on other adults (her violin teacher) to pitch in on these. But I've got to admit the experience has me questioning my overall decision to homeschool. I have a sinking feeling that, well, if she's going to be so automatically resistant to what I have to say, then how can I be of any help to her in the homeschool setting? In case any of you have any thoughts on the "teaching your own" issue, with regard to violin or otherwise, I'm all ears.

[ebethmom]

Stacymom, ebethmom and Miranda - you're Suzuki teachers, yes? (Should we have a teacher roll-call here?) I wonder if any violin teachers here have had any success teaching their own children. One reason I ask is that I've been having issues with DD accepting advice or direction from me. It's generally of a technical nature, like violin or handwriting. So I've been relying on other adults (her violin teacher) to pitch in on these. But I've got to admit the experience has me questioning my overall decision to homeschool. I have a sinking feeling that, well, if she's going to be so automatically resistant to what I have to say, then how can I be of any help to her in the homeschool setting? In case any of you have any thoughts on the "teaching your own" issue, with regard to violin or otherwise, I'm all ears.

Yes, I teach Suzuki method violin and viola. And I also homeschool and teach my son violin. I'm not sure I would call our violin studies an unqualified success. Our progress has been . . . slow. My ds does like to play. Almost every time he gets his violin out, he says "I'm really good at this!" I love that he enjoys it, and I make sure to affirm that enthusiasm. I do wish that he was more enthusiastic about taking instruction from me! I have to be very careful not to push, or insist on absolute perfection. My kids know that music is what I do. I have to be careful to leave plenty of room for them to make their own music.

Y'know, I think that handwriting and violin are both very personal matters. I find that I have to be careful when I'm correcting my ds's handwriting. I'll make a suggestion, then just let it go. Usually my suggestion is met with resistance! But then he'll take more care with it the next time. It is very similar to our violin practice "dance".

If I had to judge our homeschool success on violin and handwriting progress, I would probably just throw in the towel! Those are two touchy subjects. For us, the rest of school is much easier. The Math fits can be treacherous, but we weather them fairly well. Most of Math is easy for ds, so the areas that require step-by-step work just infuriate him.

Honestly, if we didn't have to drive over an hour to get to another Suzuki teacher, I would probably hand the violin teaching hat to someone else. I would rather be my kids' Home Teacher. For right now, home lessons are our best option.

One more thought about resistance . . . I remember being very resistant to help from my Mom when I had trouble with homework. When I had to ask for help, I was already frustrated. Then my Mom had to step in and figure out the assignment and the teacher's POV, then determine where I was having difficulty. She had to wade through a lot of steps just to figure out where to help. My ds has a stubborn streak that is a lot like mine. Since I already know the lesson plan and where we're headed, it's easier for me to help crack through his resistance.

[moominmamma]

Stacymom, ebethmom and Miranda - you're Suzuki teachers, yes? (Should we have a teacher roll-call here?) I wonder if any violin teachers here have had any success teaching their own children.

Yes, I teach Suzuki violin and viola. I live in a very small town a long way from bigger centres. When we moved here I realized that if my kids were going to have a Suzuki childhood, I was going to have to create a program for them. So I started when my eldest was 18 months. Eventually I had about 18 students. I started teaching my first-born. It was, er, not easy. We had a sputtering start. She was musically and intellectually more than ready but very oppositional, not at all receptive to direction.

Then, thankfully, around the time I was expecting my 3rd child and wondering what the heck I'd gotten myself into with all these students, all my own kids, my part-time job and homeschooling, my mom moved to town. She's an SAA-sanctioned violin teacher trainer with decades of full-time teaching experience and was taking partial retirement by moving here. She gradually took over most of my students, and she and I have sort of team-taught my kids. In other words they'd have weekly lessons with their grandma which would serve as a sort of weekly goal and chance to show off and get reinforcement, and I'd work with them when they practiced at home, introducing new skills and consolidating. Together we identified priorities and reinforced them.

With all my children except my youngest, though, there has been a lot of resistance to my involvement in their home practicing. I'm not a demanding, hyper-critical, hard-nosed Suzuki parent, really I'm not. I think I'm actually very gentle, creative and positive. Though at times I wondered what I was doing wrong. Nothing that worked with my students worked with my own kids. My eldest two are incredibly autonomy-driven, introverted and perfectionistic. (My middle dd is like this too, though to a lesser extent.) They would sometimes start crying if they discovered I'd been within listening distance while they were doing some particularly difficult work on their instruments.

My kids became independent practicers very young. Somewhere between age 8 and 9. It hasn't been the best thing for their achievement. For at least a couple of years their learning slowed down, their posture and/or tone deteriorated, things got sloppy. Gradually they grew into the maturity they needed to practice effectively. Or are growing, in the case of my 10- and 12-year-olds. Still struggling there a bit, especially with my most perfectionistic of kids, the 12yo. But the positive flip side is that they really "own" their music studies. They work for their own reasons, on their own terms.

My 6yo is the one child who reassures me that I'm not a toxic Suzuki parent by nature. She's cheerful, resilient, responsive, and is happy working with me. I could teach her on my own without outside weekly lessons.

Miranda

[Mary-Beth]

An update and a quick question...

I posted recently about planning a book 1 graduation recital for dd1. Well, we had it last Sunday. Her sister opened for her with Allegro, Song of the Wind, and Go Tell Aunt Rhody. She also played Long, LongAgo, Minuet 1, Happy Farmer and Gavotte. The last two she played as a duet with her violin teacher. She played the twinkle duet with her younger sister. We held it at a nursing home and a few of the residents sang along for the Twinkle.
It was short and sweet...then we had a cookout back at our house. :joy:

So thanks for the advice I got here when planning it!

My quick question, is when do you you teach your kids to use independent fingers? Is there some general guideline teachers follow with that?
My dd2 is about to start E-tude and our teacher hasn't mentioned anything about independent fingers yet. With dd1, she started with independent fingers at perpetual motion.

[Bekka]

I've been on MDC for a long time (since 1999), and never (somehow) heard of this tribe!!!

I'm quoting Miranda:
My eldest two are incredibly autonomy-driven, introverted and perfectionistic. (My middle dd is like this too, though to a lesser extent.) They would sometimes start crying if they discovered I'd been within listening distance while they were doing some particularly difficult work on their instruments.

My kids became independent practicers very young. Somewhere between age 8 and 9. It hasn't been the best thing for their achievement. For at least a couple of years their learning slowed down, their posture and/or tone deteriorated, things got sloppy. Gradually they grew into the maturity they needed to practice effectively. Or are growing, in the case of my 10- and 12-year-olds. Still struggling there a bit, especially with my most perfectionistic of kids, the 12yo. But the positive flip side is that they really "own" their music studies. They work for their own reasons, on their own terms.

I *believe* that my Suzuki student is like this. I think that she has taken more autonomy for her practice than her teacher(s) would have preferred, BUT she is really starting to "own" her practice and finding her motivation internally. If I insisted on being present/making comments as often as I used to, she and I may still be at odds like when she was 8. I have really backed off and she has autonomy for almost her whole practice, and even disappears into the basement for most of it. I think she relishes practicing alone (and as she's the oldest, there's less distraction).

[Bekka]

So I have no idea how I missed the creation of this thread last year.

I'm a Suzuki parent with a 10 yo dd. She is right in the middle of book 4. She started at age 3 (barely) after insisting for a year (yes, a year) that she wanted to play violin. We had a great program we started with, from age 3 through age 6. We thought we'd only be there one year, but I'm glad we started b/c we ended up being there so much longer than we thought. WE moved to another state (VA) and found a program that was much younger but still had the "expectation" we'd come to expect.

DH and I both have music backgrounds, but not professionally. We have now 4 younger children. DD2 is advancing very rapidly on non-Suzuki piano (the Suzuki piano teacher in our area was not a great match) and we tried starting violin with ds last year when he was 4. The practices were great, the connection with teacher did not happen, so we suspended lessons for a while. Then I got pregnant. At this point he's discussing guitar (esp. electric) and trumpet, and I can't think about any kind of lessons for him until at least January (the baby will be older, etc.). He'll be in kindergarten. DD3 is almost 3; I think after dd1 I will choose to start anyone else more like 4 plus, just b/c of the effort at "motivation." And 3's have just been hard with my kids, 4 has been much better (mostly).

DD1 is very excited (and stressed) to be preparing for a major audition for the regional youth orchestra (final round), and our Washington Suzuki Institute is awesome. We're going again this year (4th year or so), although skipping the fiddling class (very sad, but I have a baby).

Sorry that's long, but I'm very excited to commiserate. Well, I already know Stacy and Miranda...

[Stacymom]

Stacymom - you're going to ISSI, yes? Are you going as teacher, parent, both? I sure wish I could bring our teacher from Boise along with us. She'd just love it.

Yup, we're headed to ISSI. We're fortunate because even though we moved last year, we're still only an hour away. My parents live less than 15 minutes from the institute, so we're going to move the whole familiy minus my dh, to my mom's house for the week.

I'm going mostly as a mom this year. I haven't been able to do my teacher training for a while now, ever since my dd started playing. Its virtually impossible to be a mom at institute and do the teacher training simultaneously, and right now its much more important that she has the institute experience. Originally, the plan was for her to do institute here and for me to fly somewhere else to do more training, but its really expensive, I have a six month old baby (who is only six weeks post a major operation!) and I just don't feel the need to be doing more training right now.

What is fun though is that when Abby is in classes where she doesn't need me, like enrichment type classes, I usually drop her off then head somewhere else to observe. I get a lot of fresh ideas that way. I'm hoping that my baby cooperates enough for me to do some of that this year.

Stacymom, ebethmom and Miranda - you're Suzuki teachers, yes? (Should we have a teacher roll-call here?) I wonder if any violin teachers here have had any success teaching their own children. In case any of you have any thoughts on the "teaching your own" issue, with regard to violin or otherwise, I'm all ears.

When Abby started, I felt strongly that she needed and deserved to have her own experience playing the violin. I wanted to be the mom and not the teacher too, and my instinct there has turned out to be absolutely correct. I taught her for a couple of transition months this year- we moved, had a baby, and were waiting for the teacher we were transferring to to have an opening for us- and it just wasn't as sucessful as I wanted it to be. I find it much easier to rely on the teacher to give assignments. That way, when she's crying and stomping her feet about her fourth finger shifting excercise, I can smile and tell her its her teacher's fault! :lol No really, its worked so much better for us. The practicing relationship is so intimate and so volatile. I think as kids get older and more vested in their playing, they see "help" from mom as criticism, no matter how carefully we try to phrase it. Ed Sprunger says in his book that criticism (even if its done in a positive way!) makes a child question if mom still loves them. Sometimes that seems like a rather big cognitive leap for me, but I do know that my daughter really does want to look good in my eyes, and me trying to correct her makes her sad sometimes. One of the downsides of being a violin teaching suzuki parent though is that my dd feels very ganged up on sometimes.

But I'm not sure that your practicing relationship will be a predictor of your homeschooling success. I homeschooled for a time, and it was much different because math facts and reading etc, all are much less personal somehow than playing the violin.

An update and a quick question...

My quick question, is when do you you teach your kids to use independent fingers? Is there some general guideline teachers follow with that?
My dd2 is about to start E-tude and our teacher hasn't mentioned anything about independent fingers yet. With dd1, she started with independent fingers at perpetual motion.

If you're talking about placing fingers one by one instead of blocking them all together, I think its more personal preference than anything. I start way early- like in Twinkles, when they cross to the A string, they put down 3 by itself, then 2, then 1. And in Lightly Row, they start with 2 all by itself. I think that not using independent fingerings can hinder them at some point. Ask your teacher though- it may just be that he or she hasn't covered it with you for some reason.

So I have no idea how I missed the creation of this thread last year.


Sorry I didn't point you in this direction sooner! :duh Glad you're here!

And now for my exciting, kind of bragging moment. We officially got to start Book 4 in Abby's lesson today. There is something very "grown up" about working on an official concerto with her. She's so excited!

[moominmamma]

And now for my exciting, kind of bragging moment. We officially got to start Book 4 in Abby's lesson today. There is something very "grown up" about working on an official concerto with her. She's so excited!

There sure is, and what a wonderful milestone!

Have you got one of those cool brand-spanking-new revised editions of Book 4? There's little that's different in the Seitzes, but the layout and typesetting and inclusion of exercises is really nice. Fiona's prepping for the Bach Double right now, hoping to have it well learned in time for her to play it in a large group at the institute in August. That's a once-a-year opportunity that seems worth trying to capitalize on. We've skipped the Perpetuo Mobile for now because it seems unlikely it'll be a group piece at the institute since so few kids will have ever learned it.

Miranda

[greencat]

Does anyone use this with your student at home? If you do, please write about how you like it. Thanks!

http://www.amazon.com/Practiceopedia-Music-Students-Illustrated-Practicing/dp/0958190534/ref=pd_sim_b_3

[Mama Shifra]

DH and I both have music backgrounds, but not professionally. We have now 4 younger children. DD2 is advancing very rapidly on non-Suzuki piano (the Suzuki piano teacher in our area was not a great match) and we tried starting violin with ds last year when he was 4. The practices were great, the connection with teacher did not happen, so we suspended lessons for a while. Then I got pregnant. At this point he's discussing guitar (esp. electric) and trumpet, and I can't think about any kind of lessons for him until at least January (the baby will be older, etc.). He'll be in kindergarten. DD3 is almost 3; I think after dd1 I will choose to start anyone else more like 4 plus, just b/c of the effort at "motivation." And 3's have just been hard with my kids, 4 has been much better (mostly).

Bekka--

I don't know where you are in Virginia, but if your son is still interested in guitar and you cannot find a Suzuki guitar teacher, you may want to try Childbloom Guitar. They also stress learning by rote initially (as opposed to reading music when beginning guitar) and start lessons from age 5 and up. My 8 year old daughter has been in the Childbloom program for over a year, and its great. There is a teacher in the Roanoke area who teaches Childbloom Guitar. You can check it out on this website: www.childbloom.com

[Bekka]

www.childbloom.com[/url]


Thanks, we're in NoVA. There's a Suzuki guitar teacher an hour away; too far for us ... We need a 30 min or less drive. I will keep looking.

[Stacymom]

There sure is, and what a wonderful milestone!

Have you got one of those cool brand-spanking-new revised editions of Book 4? There's little that's different in the Seitzes, but the layout and typesetting and inclusion of exercises is really nice. Fiona's prepping for the Bach Double right now, hoping to have it well learned in time for her to play it in a large group at the institute in August. That's a once-a-year opportunity that seems worth trying to capitalize on. We've skipped the Perpetuo Mobile for now because it seems unlikely it'll be a group piece at the institute since so few kids will have ever learned it.

Miranda

We are using the new books. Abby's teacher is really on top of things, and made us go back and re-learn the new things in book 3 when it came out as well. I'm still learning all the new things- can I just tell you how much of a loop the Bach Bourree has thrown me? I am constantly screwing up the bowings when I'm playing it with her, and she just laughs.

There's some new stuff in book 4 I really like- I like that they're using more shifting, have changed the horrible page turns, and using some more intuitive fingerings that I've been using already. Although I did come across one spot in the Vivaldi a minor 3rd movement today that made me scratch my head.

We love the Perpetual Mobile! I think Abby is more excited about that than any of them in Book 4. And I can't believe how fast Fiona is zooming! I check in on your blog every so often, and love to read about your and your kids' adventures with music. I hope she's able to do the Bach double- that would be amazing. (I can't wait to play that with my daughter- I think I'll cry all the way through the first time! :love)

[insahmniak]

General question - How much is enough?

We've been putting the finishing touches on the Gavotte Mignon. I think I indicated earlier that this has been one of our "headbanger" pieces. DD has been working hard on it, with challenges in terms of intonation, steady rhythm (don't rush the easy parts and slow up the harder ones), and getting the right number of strawberries or blueberries (repeated sixteenth parts). You can see her work hard, make some progress on one part, feel better, slip up on another part and then feel frustrated with the process.

When I think about how she will work on this piece for yet another week, and rather intensively with her master teacher, I can't help but feel badly for her. I'm pretty sure there is quite a bit of merit in pushing through with this and try to get it buttoned up with the master teacher. But her experience with this piece has me wondering how others deal with the challenging pieces that seem to drag on. Do you ever just move on? Do you stick with it and do your utter best to stay positive and not worry about The Finish? Is it possible to heal or overcome a frustrating piece such that it becomes "new" or, dare I say it, cherished rather than dreaded?

I'd love to hear your ideas and approaches.

[Juuulie]

Hi Suzuki mamas,

I'm new to these forums, been lurking awhile, VERY happy to have found this tribe, could discuss Suzuki stuff all day long and never get tired of it...

My daughter's headbanger piece was the Bach Gavotte in g minor from Book 3. That piece went into her review pile last November but she still loathes it. In fact, the best way to kill her interest in a new piece is to point out similar phrases ("do this bowing just like Gavotte"). I hope that one day she will cherish rather than dread it, but it hasn't happened yet. OTOH she used to despise Beethoven Minuet in G and now it's one of her favorites.

However, we do sometimes just "move on" -- our wonderful teacher would rather have a piece not quite polished than have a child give up in frustration -- and there have been times when we've put something in the review pile with the comment that "we'll come back to it later." The Gavotte was an exception, and with hindsight I can see that there were a lot of good reasons why we spent so much time on it.

Right now, at the end of the school year, dd is feeling kind of tired and burned out on the violin (she just finished Seitz 2/3). Teacher and I decided that we'd take a break from the Suzuki repertoire and let her make a "lateral move" while he is away teaching at institutes. So she got to choose whichever piece she wanted out of Barbara Barber (vol. 1) for her next piece. She picked Elves' Dance and we started it last night -- with much enthusiasm!

[MeloMama08]

Hey mamas!
Well isn't this a fun thread!?
Are there any suzuki piano TEACHERS in our midst? I played suzuki piano all the way from age four to high school and then went to conservatory and now I'm a music teacher... I just started teaching private Suzuki piano and I'd love to talk to any other people who are teaching! If you are, can you please PM me?
Thanks, yay suzuki.

[moominmamma]

General question - How much is enough?

I took a great course with Ed Sprunger a few years ago and he talked a lot about this issue. Basically he suggested taking into account the teaching points for each piece, the technical and musical learning tasks that piece presents. We should keep in mind why these points are in this piece and what their importance is. Some of these things are crucial to ongoing development violinistic and should not be left to "linger" but said that often he'd be willing to allow other things to linger. They'd be kept in a mental teacher's file called "Lingering Issues" and revisited in subsequent months to hone them.

So, for instance, to raise the topical Gavotte from Mignon. If the student is having difficulty with the pizzicato at the end, that's not a skill that's built on in the next book or so, though the chord fingering is further built on at the end of Book 3 and in early Book 4. So one might allow that to linger for a few months. On the other hand the left-hand challenges in the B-flat major section is built on in the remaining pieces in Book 2 (in terms of dexterity) and in early Book 3 (in terms of intonation), so that isn't something that one should let linger. Counting the repeated sixteenths? Not crucial to ongoing development (and much easier with the piano accompaniment!). Placing the G# in the first section? That one gets built on in Minuet in G so should probably be solved now.

Hope that helps!

Miranda

[honeybee]

:lurk: I'm thinking this technical jargon will start to make sense at some point... Wow we have a lot to learn! But ds's teacher said we should start and finish up Twinkle by the end of the summer. :joy:

[ebethmom]

Although I did come across one spot in the Vivaldi a minor 3rd movement today that made me scratch my head.

I hope she's able to do the Bach double- that would be amazing. (I can't wait to play that with my daughter- I think I'll cry all the way through the first time! :love)

In the Vivaldi, is it the Open E to third position barriolage section? I had wondered about that spot! I learned it with the string crossing for the entire passage, but the fingerings in the new edition only show the string crossings for that one beat. I still teach the way I learned it.

I've been practicing the Bach Double with the new bowings. I like them! When we played it at the Play-In and the Final Concert last week, the leaders did the old bowings. Hard to break those habits!

My dd is a PreTwinkler now, but I was just thinking about her Bach Double potential. I'm just hoping that my ds can make it to Book 4!

I decided to bite the bullet and take my kids to Stevens Point in August. So it's a triple institute summer for me. I taught last week, I'm taking a training course this week, then I'll get to sit in the parent chair in August. My dh is taking some vacation time to go to Stevens Point. I'm looking forward to observing some lessons there! I haven't been back to Stevens Point since I was a kid.

[Stacymom]

We made it! Institute this year was tough, tough with my 7 month old in tow. Usually, I use institute as a way to recharge my teaching batteries as well, and gain new ideas, but this year it was all I could do to keep the baby happy. Poor little boy is very routine driven, and not being able to sleep in his bed when he was tired really threw him off! He was pretty cranky and really tired through most of it, and that made it tough.

But, Abby very much enojyed herself. We didn't come away with any big playing revelations or anything like that because her new teacher is so picky and doesn't let anything slide (in fact, it seemed like her master class teacher didn't have much of anything to suggest to her, which was a little frustrating) but she came away inspired, so I think that's the biggest success.

I did see some new teachers that I really liked- Koen Rens from Belgium and Fernando Pinero from Argentina. Anybody else have favorite teachers they like at Institutes? I'm always trying to find new teachers to watch.

In the Vivaldi, is it the Open E to third position barriolage section? I had wondered about that spot! .

Oh wow! I didn't even notice that until just now! Hmmm, I don't know what I think about that. The one I was talking about is where it shifts to fourth position instead of using the harmonic on the high E. I've always taught a shift to fifth position there so the E can be strong, and I think I'll probably keep doing it that way.

I've been practicing the Bach Double with the new bowings. I like them! .

Crap! There are new Bach Double bowngs? Argh! The Bach Bouree bowings have been killing me! My dd's teacher said she's going to re-learn book 4 as she teaches my dd, and I'm sure that will be my case as well.

I decided to bite the bullet and take my kids to Stevens Point in August. So it's a triple institute summer for me. I taught last week, I'm taking a training course this week, then I'll get to sit in the parent chair in August. My dh is taking some vacation time to go to Stevens Point. I'm looking forward to observing some lessons there! I haven't been back to Stevens Point since I was a kid.

Three Institutes? You are a brave, brave woman. I am so exhausted physically and emotionally after this week that I'm not sure I could do another insitute if I had to! Someday I would love to do Steven's Point. Pretty ridiculous since ISSI is in my backyard, but it would be fun to experience something different.

Insahmniak, how was institute for you? I kept meaning to pm you so that we could actually meet irl, but never got to it. Who did you get to work with? Was is fun for your dd? How did "Mignon" turn out?

[insahmniak]

Insahmniak, how was institute for you? I kept meaning to pm you so that we could actually meet irl, but never got to it. Who did you get to work with? Was is fun for your dd? How did "Mignon" turn out?

Thanks for asking, Stacymom. I'm super happy to give a review. I should start with :joy: That's it, in a nutshell. I'm very happy with our experience this year. I was particularly surprised at how gratifying it was to see familiar faces. That made this large-scale institute feel rather homey, really. We got to catch up with folks we remembered from last year as well as meet new friends. I did miss having Sven Sjorgen, I must admit. We had him last year for technique and it was awesome.

Teachers we worked with this year were Terry Durbin (again), Pat D'Ercole and Helen Higa. Durbin was amazing as expected. D'Ercole also had a great way with the kids. Higa had a lot to impart, but for a child who just turned six I'm guessing it was a bit esoteric. "Practice doing nothing" turned out to be a theme in the class, for example. For the slightly older student I can see how a class with Higa could be transformative.

This time around my partner came along nearly every day, so I was able to attend some of the parent-centered classes, and observe a few others. This was tremendously helpful.

Best part for me - hands down - attending the parent chats with Ed Sprunger. I gained so much. I was also able to observe a couple of his classes.

This year one of the things that stood out was the emphasis on freedom of movement and relaxation while playing, at least in the classes I observed. As a mom concerned about establishing healthy playing habits I appreciated this.

Loved the Aaron Ashton concert - so much fun! He plays with such joy that it feels a privilege to watch. And the violinist who opened with Kreisler's Preludium - he was also amazing. I wish I could remember his name....

Mignon went well enough and I'm glad we'll be moving on. Taking it to institute certainly emphasized some of her left-hand issues like being tight with her thumb, which I found out is double-jointed. We now have lots of exercise ideas to try. One of DD's classmates had a beautiful vibrato, and I saw the awe in my daughter's eyes and watched her try to do it herself. I think she'd really like to have a nice vibrato. Terry Durbin was going through some bow distribution exercises and asked things like, "How do you play mad?" "How do you play sad?" When he asked the class "How do you play beautiful?" DD shouted out "With vibrato!" I was happy to hear her enthusiasm. She also can't wait to play Minuet in G. When she couldn't join in with the others in her class on this piece she got pretty teary. She knows how it sounds and plays it by ear at home, but I guess she felt shy about joining in because she hasn't formally learned it. So like you - we're coming home with a great deal of motivation.

Overall it was really rewarding to note the growth in my daughter. A year ago she had just turned five and was more easily overwhelmed. This year she was able to be quite a bit more engaged. She's grown up a lot in the last year. Sniff Sniff.

I kept thinking maybe I'd run into you at some point, Stacymom. It's such a busy week and with our kids at different levels it's easy to see how we'd miss each other. Maybe next year we'll figure out a way to connect.

Ack - long post. So much to process after institute! In a nutshell ... :joy:

[insahmniak]

I took a great course with Ed Sprunger a few years ago and he talked a lot about this issue. Basically he suggested taking into account the teaching points for each piece, the technical and musical learning tasks that piece presents. We should keep in mind why these points are in this piece and what their importance is. Some of these things are crucial to ongoing development violinistic and should not be left to "linger" but said that often he'd be willing to allow other things to linger. They'd be kept in a mental teacher's file called "Lingering Issues" and revisited in subsequent months to hone them.

So, for instance, to raise the topical Gavotte from Mignon. If the student is having difficulty with the pizzicato at the end, that's not a skill that's built on in the next book or so, though the chord fingering is further built on at the end of Book 3 and in early Book 4. So one might allow that to linger for a few months. On the other hand the left-hand challenges in the B-flat major section is built on in the remaining pieces in Book 2 (in terms of dexterity) and in early Book 3 (in terms of intonation), so that isn't something that one should let linger. Counting the repeated sixteenths? Not crucial to ongoing development (and much easier with the piano accompaniment!). Placing the G# in the first section? That one gets built on in Minuet in G so should probably be solved now.

Hope that helps!

Miranda

That helps a lot, Miranda. Thank you. I now have something to work from. Hopefully I can tease apart what is built upon and what is not, and get on the same page with the teacher on that.

Ed Sprunger - I can't say enough about how much I gained from attending the parent chats with him. He helped me become aware of the differences between the role of the teacher and that of the parent from my daughter's perspective. He has amazing insight and I really appreciate his emphasis on the health of the relationship between a parent and child. Hearing that was so liberating.

I'm both glad and disappointed to find out that the Valhalla Institute is at capacity. (I just inquired - :shy) One of these years we're going to make it up there for it. What an inspiring setting to make music in! I'd love to hear how it goes this year.

[elisheva]

Hi - I'm new here (to this forum, anyway). I have 2 kids - ds1 is 2.5, ds2 is 9.5 months, and we have one on the way, Gd willing, in November.

We are thinking of starting ds1 in Suzuki violin sometime after his third birthday. I'd welcome any opinions on when to start. I know very little about the method right now but I want my kids to have an instrument to play and to receive some instruction/practice on how to be dedicated to that instrument. I was in the band throughout school and loved playing in an ensemble, but never practiced or went any farther... I'd like to push my kids further than that.

Also, how best to find a teacher? We're in Victoria, BC. I'm looking forward to reading this thread.

[Bekka]

We're working our way through the Greater WAshington (DC) Suzuki Institute. DD1 got really sick overnight, so we're missing her lesson, orchestra, and everything today with Mr. Durbin--she can't keep anything down. Hopefully we can finish the week.

I have a 2 month old. I'm having to accept that this year Institute is ALL about dd--I'm never going to try to go the the parent lectures with a baby again. I had a terrible experience at Ed Sprunger's lecture a couple of years ago, and was so embarrassed. I LOVE Ed Sprunger, his book, I'm a total disciple. However, it's not fun to feel bad about your baby. So I just stay away with a baby in arms.

I enjoyed all the parent lectures last year; I'd love them this year, but I'll take what I can get at the level I can.

Our faculty are often regional--we get Ed Sprunger and Terry Durbin every year, and lots of local teachers (Ronda Cole runs our Institute and she is a Master Teacher). There are several other great teachers--I like Dana Myers (Meyers? sp) from Tennessee very much, and a few others. We haven't even seen them all!!

I'm not posting often b/c of said baby. Hope everyone has good Institute and summer experiences. And we're hoping to finish book 4 this summer, so we'll be on the Vivaldi soon (NEXT!!!) but not yet.

[Juuulie]

Also, how best to find a teacher? We're in Victoria, BC. I'm looking forward to reading this thread.

Well, I can tell you from experience how NOT to find a teacher. Don't use a directory that teachers have to pay to be listed on, that you got from the music store. Don't look at that list and recognize the name of someone you went to high school with and sign up your child for lessons because she was first chair in orchestra back then and therefore she must be a good teacher. :eyesroll

In other words, ask around! Get several names from people you trust, talk to those teachers, observe a lesson. One of the best questions to ask a potential teacher, IMO, is "how do you decide when it's time to advance to the next piece."

You might also want to read up on the Suzuki philosophy or take an Every Child Can class before you start talking to teachers. They will want to know that you've done your homework too.

Hope this helps. Suzuki is amazing. It's the best thing I've ever done as a parent.

[ebethmom]

Also, how best to find a teacher? We're in Victoria, BC. I'm looking forward to reading this thread.

You can look for a teacher on the SAA website, www.suzukiassociation.org . Not every teacher is listed, just those who have openings in the studios and choose to post their information.

I always recommend lots of observation. You want to know that particular teacher's style to make sure that it will be a good fit with your family.

[insahmniak]

I always recommend lots of observation. You want to know that particular teacher's style to make sure that it will be a good fit with your family.

Just want to underscore the "lots of observation" tip. Don't be shy to ask for a few sessions, perhaps with different level students so you can see a range. It's not super important, but how nice it would be to find a teacher who could work well with your child throughout a good long chunk of their musical path.

Music communities can be tight in some areas and switching teachers is typically not without some pain. Better to do a thorough job ahead of time. Saves some potential hurt feelings in the long run.

[Bekka]

DD ended up being so sick that we took her to the dr. and she ended up going to emergency with appendicitis. So no more Institute, no more Mr. Durbin, but she's recovering slowly but OK. I hope there's no backlash/real sadness--she was so sick she couldn't be disappointed about missing the rest of Institute. She is still in the hospital for a couple more days.

So just so I can think about something else, ds tried violin last year, and it ended up being not so great. He was 4 1/2. He's talking a lot about guitar. I think I said upthread that the only Suzuki guitar teacher is an hour away. I just found out a friend of ours (who ds knows and likes very much) plays acoustic and electric guitar. I was wondering what your thoughts are about seeing if this friend would do lessons with ds. (Completely casual, completely non-Suzuki). FWIW, dd2 does not have a Suzuki teacher; she has a great match with a traditional piano teacher who has a very good curriculum. So we're flexible.

[DocsNemesis]

Aww...I came on here expecting bikes :( :lol

[ebethmom]

We just got back from Stevens Point, and I'm trying to hold onto that high! We had a great week! Both of my kids had a great match with their A class teachers. My son had Rob Richardson from Manitoba, and my daughter was in Carol Waldvogel's pre-twinkle class. Both were fantastic.

Scott Conklin played a solo violin recital early in the week. I had a chance to watch Scott teach in Ottawa, too. He has a great way with the kids. We all laughed about the preteen and teenaged girls who swoon in Scott's wake. Well, now my five year old daughter is right there with them! In the middle of the recital she asked me "Could he be MY teacher?" Then when we saw Scott in the hall the next day, she jumped up and down and yelled "There he is! Can I meet him?" Too funny.

My son made lots of friends who happen to play cello. So now he wants to switch! I told him that if we ever move to an area that has a good cello teacher, that would be just fine. Right now, we would have to drive 1 - 1 1/2 hours one way to get to a Suzuki cello teacher.

At Stevens Point, they have the advanced violin groups play first on stage, then the PreTwinkle group does their thing. All of the other violinists are sitting on the gym floor, and play from their spot on the floor. I love the symbolic placement. Everyone from the floor can watch the stage and see where they have been and look forward to getting back on stage with the advanced group.

[insahmniak]

Quick question re:strings.

My D just broke and I didn't have any spares so I picked up a Dominant, which set me back about $30. I've always used them - ever since I can remember. But this new one I can't seem to get seated. The winding around the base is too thick and seems really bumpy compared to the old broken one, so it's not fitting in the slot, even with some force.

My daughter's teacher suggested Corelli crystals. Anyone else use those? What should I be using on my violin? I have a very nice Guarneri-styled violin which I adore. Should I just exchange the Dominant for one with a better wrap? Has the quality of Dominants dropped off or was this a fluke?

[Stacymom]

I learned this quick fix from working at a music store for years. If you take the wrapped end of the string close to the ball end, and get a set of pliers and pinch it so its flat, that will compress the winding enough so that you can get it in the slot. Good luck!

[insahmniak]

Thanks, Stacymom. You likely saved me a trip back to the store. :D

[Mary-Beth]

When do you teach (or when did your child's violin teacher) introduce independent fingering instead of block? How about the advanced bow hold? And, playing with Vibrato?

I know it is going to vary by teacher and by student. What are the general markers of readiness? Or, when do you like to introduce these skills?

[Stacymom]

I teach independent fingering right from the beginning. Even starting from "Twinkle"- when you cross to the A string and play 3-2-1, I emphasize that 3 goes down by itself, then 2 and 1, so that 3 can be quicker.

If by advanced bow hold you mean thumb on the inside of the frog, it depends on hte age and the readiness of the student. I look for a soft hand, fingers in the right place, and being able to maintain a correct bow grip through an entire piece. I don't rush it, but usually, students have thumb on the inside somewhere around Go Tell Aunt Rhody or Song of the Wind. When I start older students (6 and above) I usually start right off with thumb inside.

Vibrato is a big one. There are a lof of things that need to be in place before a student can have a good vibrato. They need to have excellent position, because the violin needs to be supported 100% by the body in order for the left hand to have freedom of movement. The left hand needs to be relaxed, and held in the correct position. If everything is in place, I'll start preliminary vibrato excercises in the middle of Book 2, but I've waited before. My goal is to have students have a rudimentary vibrato used in their playing by the end of Book 2, but I have transfer students in Book 3 and 4 that are just now starting to work on vibrato. The parents I work with are always surprised at how long it takes to learn and incorporate a good vibrato- it really is one of those skills that runs along a continuum rather than being a one-time skill.

[Mary-Beth]

Thanks for the reply. That's interesting.
Dd1 is starting Long, Long Ago in book 2 and uses independent fingering but not the other bow hold. No mention of vibrato. (Her friends at group class about her age and playing level do both)

Dd2 is polishing up Etude in Book 1 and there's been no mention of independent fingerings. I'm sure the teacher we see has her own timing and ideas. I'm just curious what is standard-- if there is any type of "typical" timing for these things.. In out group class she is the only one (aside from the pretwinklers/twinklers) that uses block fingering. I know I cannot compare students-- but I guess I should ask our private teacher what her thoughts are on these issues.

[greencat]

A friend of mine gave me "A Book 1 Review Chart" to use at home for practice.

Instead of playing all from Book 1, it gives lists for two weeks that rotates.

Does anyone have such list for Book 2??

Thanks!

[moominmamma]

A friend of mine gave me "A Book 1 Review Chart" to use at home for practice.

Instead of playing all from Book 1, it gives lists for two weeks that rotates.

Does anyone have such list for Book 2??

Thanks!

Here's my four-part list for Book 1 & 2 review. We tend to do this in daily rotation, so that we play most pieces twice in a given week.

13 minutes
Twinkles
O Come, Little Children
Perpetual Motion
Minuet 1
Gossec Gavotte
Long, Long Ago (Bk. 2)
Witches’ Dance
Boccherini Minuet

9 minutes
Lightly Row
May Song
Allegretto
Minuet 2
Chorus
Waltz
Mignon Gavotte

8 minutes
Song of the Wind
Long, Long Ago (Bk. 1)
Andantino
Minuet 3
Musette
Handel Bourrée
Lully Gavotte

10 minutes
Go Tell Aunt Rhody
Allegro
Etude
Minuet 1
The Happy Farmer
Hunters’ Chorus
The Two Grenadiers
Minuet in G

Times are based on "CD tempo" so obviously if the review pieces have got rusty, if there's polishing left to do or the student isn't comfortable with top tempo yet, the times will be a bit longer. Still, if students are overwhelmed by the amount of review at first, it's helpful to be able to point out "look, if these pieces are easy and well-remembered, you can play them quickly and it'll only take 10 minutes a day. Let's try to get to that point."

My favourite approach for review beyond Book 2/3 is what I call the "Review Hit List." I set it up as a chart which students fill out for themselves. Basically they assign pieces to Group A, B, C or D depending on how permanently-learned and well-remembered they are. Group A are the pieces the student knows so well they will never forget them. Group B is those unlikely to be forgotten but a bit more challenging. Group C is those that need regular attention to stay in the memory banks. Group D is those that are rusty or "missing in action."

Those in Group A are on a rota to be played once every 2 weeks. Group B gets played once a week. Group C gets twice-a-week treatment. From Group D you choose one of them to work on every day until it deserves to be promoted to Group C. Then you promote it and choose another Group D piece.

You multiply out the number of pieces and their required repetitions over a 2-week period to figure out how many you need to play each day, and then it's just a matter of ticking off that many boxes every practice.

Hard to describe and it looks intimidating at first, but once you fill it out it makes sense. You can have a look here: http://www.nurturedbylove.ca/resources/review_hitlist.pdf

Miranda

[moominmamma]

I've been teaching independent fingering much earlier in recent years. Or rather, "modified independent fingering," which I explain as "don't put a finger down until you need it, and don't pick a finger up until you need to." I often introduce it first with the 2nd finger in the last two bars of Lightly Row, and then we elaborate on that with the beginning of Song of the Wind, where we go up the scale by adding blocked fingers in the first bar, but then use only 1 and 3 in the third bar. Depending on how well the child manages this, we might "walk" the fingers down the descending scale ... or not.

But ... in very young children with lax joints, I'll continue the block fingering longer. Ditto in kids who struggle a bit more with maintaining proper framing of the left hand. In those kids I will wait until the G Major scale and Etude before really getting into finger independence in a significant way. I use "1 and 3 but not 2" explicitly to help students with placement of the "low 2" in G major, and extend finger independence from there if it hasn't been previously introduced.

Thumb-in bow-hold, again, it depends on several factors such as age, fine motor control, stability of the technique and such. Children who are writing comfortably with a pencil or pen are usually ready sooner than the littles. My range would be somewhere from Go Tell Aunt Rhody to the end of Book 1. Most kids rollick fairly quickly through the pieces from May Song to Perpetual Motion, so that's a nice time to make the shift.

Vibrato -- similar variability. If left hand is stable and relaxed, intonation in at least three different fingering patterns is accurate, and the child is very motivated to pursue vibrato, I'll start as early as the end of Book 1. To me vibrato and shifting preparation require many of the same skills, so I'll often look at those together. Since violists start shifting sooner, I'll try to introduce pre-vibrato and pre-shifting exercises by early Book 2. In violinists I try to be there by early Book 3. But sometimes sooner. Vibrato is something that I work on as a book-long project taking 6-12 months.

Miranda

[Bekka]

Quick question re:strings.

My daughter's teacher suggested Corelli crystals. Anyone else use those? What should I be using on my violin? I have a very nice Guarneri-styled violin which I adore. Should I just exchange the Dominant for one with a better wrap? Has the quality of Dominants dropped off or was this a fluke?

I play a wind instrument and the piano. I was pretty shocked at how much we spend on "maintenance" stuff to keep dd's violin in playing order: new strings 2x per year, $70 ea time, rehair 2-3x per year (based on how well dd treats it) $45 each time. An "inexpensive bow" is like $200.

(I just "upgraded my flute" for $270 on craigslist)

As far as strings, I've read quite a bit. Apparently Dominant are "industry standard." Around here it's about $48 to replace a set on a fractional violin (1/4 or 1/2), I don't know about on a full-sized. We once got a set of Evah Pirazzi strings on dd's 1/4 Doetsch a couple of years ago and fell in LOVE. Her teacher asked if we got a new violin.

When we just moved up to the next size, still a Doetsch, we got it with Dominant. We just actually had a whole adventure, b/c her teacher didn't like the tone, and I wasn't particularly excited either. But we had stuck with Pirazzi strings and I forgot to ask for them when we moved up. After getting her bow back after the rehair (the loaner bow was lousy), we asked for Pirazzi strings, and I think the luthier also adjusted the sound post or something when I said that the teacher didn't like the tone. We took it back with better bow, better strings, and adjustments, and he said it was great, or at least had better potential--better than "did the job."

The other guy (not the luthier, the desk guy) at the shop asked us why we wanted Pirazzi strings; the Doetsches are supposed to have the Dominant strings (a bit patronizing, really)! I said, well, much I know, but dd has had great experience with Pirazzi strings and that's what we're requesting. The luthier put them on, we tried it out and it was much better. I don't know what did the trick, but the tone was bigger and fatter, and brighter, although it seems to be mellowing and darkening as the strings break in a bit. Listen, I know when it sounds better, even if she is the violinist! She's almost 11. She knows what she likes. So the string price above is the Pirazzi strings, which we love.

[moominmamma]

Wow, Bekka, that is a lot of money. Your dd must be playing a lot!

My kids replace the upper strings as they wear out and the lower strings about once a year. We all use Dominants, even the adults and former pro's in our extended family -- except that I've started using Evah Pirazzi strings on my viola, because it's an inexpensive instrument that doesn't quite match up with the brighter ones in the chamber groups I play in and I was looking for more "oomph" from the C and G strings. We rehair bows once a year, except in the case of my eldest who plays 3-4 hours a day -- hers twice a year.

Miranda