Restoration?

[copslass]

Has anyone had experience?
Just approaching the subject with dh.
He agrees that the surgery (circ) is wrong, no one should make that decision for another, etc.
Is fortunate to have about as "good" a circ as possible, no excessive scarring, etc. Is satisfied now with the way he is, as am I. I have always been thrilled with him, actually... ;)
Don't know if realizes what he is missing... could it be even better?
Anyone approached the subject with dh?
I would hate for him to feel inadequate, he certainly is more than *adequate* - but could there be even more, as nature intended?
For him, even more than for me?
Isn't everyone entitled to what they were born with? What nature meant for them to have?
Tell me I am not the only one here to give this thought...

YIF,
Tracy

[Nathan1097]

My dh started the restoration process 4 years ago but never finished it. He did get sensitivity back though. I wish he would've continued- or would start up again. He was so proud of his progress so don't know why he quit. You should do a search online under "foreskin restoration"- you'll find sites with info, I'm sure!

[bloobug]

There's a fabulous book called The Joy of Uncircumcising. You can get it at amazon.com. My dh is currently restoring. And yes he was missing something. Sensitivity increased 10-fold and the sex is also 100 times better(and he was already great in bed). There are many methods. But, it has to be your dh that approaches the subject not you.
Megan

[rubylark]

Cool thread.

No, I've never brought up the subject w/ DH. I might someday, tho. I've heard great things about "The Joy of Uncircumcising."

[Kleine Hexe]

Wow, that book costs over $100!!

[rubylark]

holy cow. You've got to be kidding me! I guess that explains why I've *heard* great things about it, but have never seen an actual copy! I wonder if the local librarian would fall off her stool if I ask her to request the Joy of Uncircumcising....hmmm.....

[Sarah]

The book IS out of print... but is available from the author for $20! I do not think these books are "used" but are older books that got roughed up in a warehouse or not selling on a shelf in a bookstore.

http://www.norm.org/joy.html

Sounds like a VERY limited supply- but who knows- that may be a sales pitch... but at $20 is that a PROBLEM?

Love Sarah

[Kleine Hexe]

I looked on amazon and that's where the book was listed for $100 and up from sellers. Good to know you can still get it for $20.

[rubylark]

Oh, whew!!!:D

Thanks for the link, Sarah!

[copslass]

Hey, guess what I found at the library! Yep - the Joy of Uncircumsizing! Along with a few others, of course.
DH has been reading non-stop. He is really getting an education beyond the infant cruelty issue, as am I.
Oh, I also ordered, Sex As Nature Intended from Barnes and Noble.

Thanks for all the replies! DH has actually expressed an iterest in reclaiming what is rightfully his (gee, why do I feel like that should be in quotation marks?), although he is hesitant because he wants to be sure he is "normal" in his thoughts, if that makes sense.

A related issue: oh, maybe that should be a separate thread... OK, here goes...

YIF,
Tracy

[Sarah]

OK Tracy- What gives... where is the other thread?

I don't want to horribly skew your own experience with the book- but I have to say that I HATE that book "Sex as nature intended it." Although I will be the first to back up the premise of the book- I think that the book is a disaster in many ways. Please when you get your copy and are done reading it (I never finished it but shelved it in disgust... and my husband may have used it to stoke the woodstove) post your thoughts about it as well as your husband's. I am afraid that Kristen O'Hara ia getting a big name and glory for something that should have come in a very different format. For now, I will stick to trusting Bigelow although I have not even SEEN his book simply because I am SOOO disapointed in Ohara.

Love Sarah

[copslass]

Sarah,
Don't have a clue about the "other thread" - went to bed after that, I thought I would get it back, but, no... LOL I *never* write anything without being interrupted 15-20 times, too many kids, and am rapidly losing brain cells. Example: right now dd, 11, is im'ing me, a 40-step-process (avg. 4 im's per one of my sentences), the dog is lost and 2 other kids are calling it, etc...

Re: the book, "As Nature Intended," ds looking over my shoulder, quite mixed feelings. I hesitate to criticize any pro-intact publication, but gee... I thought dh and I had an *awesome* sex life!!! Now I am told that's impossible?!
I even wondered if I am misguided in my hygeine b/c I use soap?

Dh has a theory: She wrote the book b/c she was caught in an affair and needed to justify it. ?!

I guess my feeling is that if it provokes thought about the subject, it can't be all bad.

Bloobug and Nathan,
How far have your dh's gone? My dh needed to hear that other "normal" men have persued this. He has actually started, wanted to surprise me, and the added elasticity is amazing already!

TIA, YIF,
Tracy

[Frankly Speaking]

I want to thank Sarah for pointing me to this place. I especially like the interest from the women here. One of the biggest obstacles men have to begining restoration is talking to their wives or significant others. I have seen posts from men in some of the restoration sites wanting to tell their partners and wondering if they can do their restoration without their wives knowing because they are just too shy or something. It can be a hard subject to broach. The perfect thing for a wife to do is to bring the subject up to her husband as in "Honey, I heard about the most amazing thing on the Mothering Forum today."

I told my partner as soon as I found out about restoration before I had too much of a chance to get apprehensive about it and she did exactly what I was afraid she would do. She laughed! I showed her information on the web and she told me that she thought I was nutz! She then told me that she had never seen an intact penis. She's been divorced 24 years! I then showed her what a foreskin looks like and her reaction was "OH! That's so ugly! What ever would you want something like that for?" So you see, I had a large obstacle to overcome both in myself and in her.

This is going to get a little graphic since we are talking about sex and genitals, so if you are squeamish about those subjects . . . Just stop reading right now.

I can go on and on all day about the benefits of foreskins and restoration but instead of that, let me just give you a couple of personal stories. Before I started restoration my partner and I had a sex life, but not anything to brag about. Our frequency was less than once a week. We had a standing appointment for Saturday night but sometimes things got in the way and we didn't do our Saturday night thing and it was postponed to the next Saturday night. You see, neither one of us really, really, really enjoyed it. Missing a week was alright. For me it was all about the orgasm. That 10-12 seconds of intense feelings. The rest of it was just the path to the orgasm. She was post-menopausal and didn't produce much lubrication anymore and so we had to use artificial lubrication. Artificial lubricants are either sticky or greasy. Not nice! Artificial lubricants run out after a while and the friction is there again, so you either stop and lube up again or try to just presevere to the finish. Neither of these are conducive to great love making. Since I had lost over 50% of the sensitivity in my penis to circumcision, I had to go a long time and pretty aggressively. After about four months of restoration, I had enough skin to move up and down the shaft. Her first comment was that sex had definitely gotten more comfortable. It was shortly after that that we threw out the lubricants and have never used them again.

I've been restoring about one and a half years now and there is a tremendous improvement. Just recently something happened that quantified the improvement for me. Before restoration, my partner worked very hard during oral sex. That's what it took for her to get a reaction from me. Recently, I told her that she was going too hard and needed to let off a little bit. The sensations were just too much. The next time we made love, I told her that I had told her that she needed to be more gentle and leave some skin on it. Her reply was "I'm just barely touching it!" I was jumping around the bed like a jumping bean and didn't have a clue! What more can I say?

Foreskin restoration is definitely legitimate.

Jim Bigelow's book, "The Joy of Uncircumcising" is in it's second printing. Marilyn Milos at NOCIRC tells me the second printing is almost sold out. Marilyn is the one who sent me my copy. If she still has copies, I think she charges $34.95 with the extra to help fund her organization. You may still be able to buy at the list price of $19.95 but not for long. The $119.95 price at Amazon is for a lightly used copy from someone that knows the book is almost sold out and knows the popularity of it. He will probably get his price eventually. At this point I don't know if Jim is going to do a third printing or not. The subject is changing very rapidly and since the second edition there has been enough new information that it will require Jim to make substantial changes to the book to be current. Also, there is so much information available on the web that the thinking might be that the book has outlived it's usefulness. The web was in it's infancy when the first printing of his book came out in 1991.

I would really like to get this topic going here and will be glad to share my experiences.


Frank

[Arduinna]

Frank,

Let me ask you a question, I did exactly as you said "hey honey guess what......." This was a few days ago. Anyway, I'm torn I don't want him to think I'm not happy with him. So I am afraid to bring it up again. I didn't say it in a way that suggested he should do it. And I don't plan on discussing my past experince with intact men, even though he does know about it.

Anyway so how do you inform him (he won't look for info himself) and let him know you would support him if he was interested, without making him feel inadequate.

In all honesty it really tics me off that his parents did this to him. I know exactly what's been changed because of my past experience.

He is the type to deny his feelings as long as he can, so I think that it might really bother him too.

any suggeestions

[Frankly Speaking]

To be perfectly honest with you, you're the first wife that has asked me about this so we're plowing new ground here.

What you've done is planted a seed in his mind. As you probably know, seeds don't germinate for several weeks. He may be rolling it over and over in his mind as we speak and very well may come back to you and ask for more information. Be prepared to provide him with the places to go on the web. You can also fertilize the ground where the seed is planted. Provide him with more information from the web such as "Honey, I read today that:

1. Sex is better for uncircumcised men.
2. These restored men rave about the improvement.
3. The wives say sex is much better than before.
4. You get the idea.

One hint every week or two just to keep it on his mind will eventually get a response.

The best policy is to be honest. If sex is painful or too rough for you or any of the other reasons, be prepared to tell him in a loving way.

However, I must tell you, restoration is a long process and requires a commitment. It's a major hassle and it's not painfull but not without pain occasionally either. If he's not committed to it, he'll never finish it or may not even get started good. Marilyn Milos, founder and director of NOCIRC, tells me that her sons are fully aware of the process and benefits of restoration but are not interested in pursuing it. That may be the case for your husband.

Put yourself in his place. He perceives that sex is as good as it can get. He can't fathom that it can be any better. To consider having tape and hardware and elastic attached to his penis 24/7 for several years when he can't comprehend the benefit, is just foriegn. Put yourself in that same position and imagine wearing the same equipment on your genitals and having a substantial pulling force on them all day every day and you may see where he is coming from.

I assume from your post that you love him very much. You want to help him because you love him. You want to help him be all that he can be. However, he must understand that there is better before he can accept a solution. In the end, you may have to love him as he is.

Frank

[Arduinna]

Wow, thank you so much for your terrific post.

Your right, I've noticed that germination time can take a bit thanks for reminder *smiles*

I don't know that much about restoration myself. If fact he and I had little conversation speculating how it could be done (when I first brought it up). And he thought it would be by surgical skin graft. I told him I had no idea, which was the truth. After I posted to you, I went to noharm and read about the stretching method. But I didn't notice them saying it had to be 24/7.

You definately have to be commited to do it 24/7. I appreciate your honesty. It can't be easy. And I'm not sure that I would have the dedication if it was me. I think your suggestions were great about sharing what I've found. I will gently and gradually share what I know. I have a feeling that 24/7 is more investment than he would be willing. But it is his call not mine. I love him, will no matter what.

I only have one more question. I didn't notice this info on noharm. Once a man has achieved whatever goal of restoration he has (total, partial whatever) does the stretching have to continue forever? Will the gains be lost if the stretching isn't continued?

Thanks for sharing your story and helping me understand

[Frankly Speaking]

There are a lot of clubs or groups on the web for restoration. The largest with over 2,000 members is "Foreskin Restoration 3" at Yahoo! There have been over 9,000 posts there all about foreskin restoration issues. There are before and after pictures and pictures of devices (of torture!) both commercially available and home made. Here's a link to take you there:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/foreskinrestoration3/?yguid=112092464

As to whether the gains can be lost . . . It doesn't appear that the skin ever shrinks back. This isn't something that has been done a long time and so nothing's set in concrete. Within a week or so after discontinuing stretching, the skin relaxes and shrinks some (maybe as much as 25%) but after that what you have is permanent. Basically, you have to go a little beyond what you want so that when the shrinkage occurs, you end up at your goal.

By the way, There is a surgical method. Jim Bigelow talks about it in his book. There are very a few plastic surgeons that do it. There is a Dr. Stubbs in Canada that has a website that shows the before and after. There are two methods and from what I have read, both work but neither are very esthetically pleasing. They are both versions of skin grafts. Since the skin on the shaft of the penis is unique on the body, the grafted skin doesn't match. There are also two scars that go all of the way around the penile shaft and one that goes the length. From what I've read, I speculate the cost of this surgery would be between $20 and $25 thousand. Imagine that! His parents probably paid $50.00 or less and these men spend that much to get back to *nearly* normal!

[Arduinna]

Wow that is a heck of alot of money. And as you said it would not be the same type of skin.

Thanks for the links, I'll check them out. And for the information about the long term effects. I'll share this with him when the time is right.

I just wanted to say I really appreciate your candor about this. It's not often you find someone willing to share such personal information. Thank You

[thaiger]

Hi
I've read the posts on this topic, at times unable to read because of the tears. I think it is absolutely amazing that there are women/mothers out there who understand the lifelong disability that results from circumcision, not to mention the pain and horror at the time this barabaric practice occurred.

Probably like a lot of men, I have experienced reduced sensitivity over time. It finally got to the point that I was unable to achieve orgasm during intercourse and began trying to identify the problem and search for a solution. What I found on the medical websites was less than helpful, either telling me that the problem was all in my head (psychological) or that I was in need of "touch therapy". No where did any medical website even suggest that the problem *might* be due to circumcision. Eventually I found the information linking reduced sensitivity to circumcision. The more I read, the more I understood what had been taken from me and the more angry and betrayed I felt about it.

This afternoon, I downloaded a media clip showing a circumcision being performed. Understanding the source of the infant boy's pain and hearing his cries broke my heart. I was reminded of the time I was in the nursery with my then 4 hour old daughter, and the nurse was trying to collect blood for a PKT test. She jabbed my little girl in the heel repeatedly trying to squeeze out enough blood to cover a postage stamp sized square on a card. With each jab, my little girl screamed. I remember the anger and rage I felt at this barbarity. Finally, after the sixth attempt I told the nurse "that's enough" in what I'm sure was my deadliest tone of voice. At that point in time, I was ready to do her bodily harm. She appeared ready to inflict more pain, but after looking at me I think she decided that I was right and abandoned any further attempts. The pain of a circumcision has got to be 100 times worse and I just cannot imagine subjecting anyone to that kind of torture, let alone a defenseless hours old infant. The thought makes me sick to my stomach.

I have been attempting restoration on and off for about a year now, with limited success. My wife's initial reaction was amusement as well, and that was difficult to deal with until I began educating her. I think she is a lot more understanding now and I think that will help as I resume my restoration.

I think most men, if they think about it at all, will be in denial, simply because as boys, we were never told the truth or given factual information about our own bodies. Because men have never known anything else, they'll never really know what it is they have lost. Others, understanding the extent of the loss will experience shame, humiliation, anger, distrust, etc as the enormity of their violation soaks in.

Anyway, thanks for being sensitive and having the critical thinking skills necessary to pierce the veil of ignorance about this. Your sons will have much to be grateful for when they are my age.

[rubylark]

Welcome, thaiger:W

Thanks for sharing such profound, honest feelings & thoughts. My heart goes out to you. Although my DH is 100% opposed to circ & would NEVER allow it to be done to our child, he is far from realizing the enormity of violation (as you put it) that was committed against him when he was circ'd. He learned just enough about circ to realize that it was wrong--but then decided to learn no more about it. I think it's a defense mechanism...almost like he doesn't want to fully know what he is missing or what he went thru when he was a baby...it might be too painful to learn.

I wish you all the best with your restoration. Thanks for joining the conversation.

Love,
Jolene

[Christy1980]

I'm new here, and I tried posting a LONG reply to this subject, and somehow it didn't go where it was supposed to go....

i am not a mother yet, I am not married yet, but I have decided NOT to CIRC my sons when i have them!! It is a subject that gets debated alot in my family. I seem to be the only anti-circ member of my family. Same with my friends. They always bring up the "hygene" crap, and i just wanna slap them sometimes!!!

Anyway, I have been with my boyfriend, (bf, i guess) for a little over a year. When we got together, he was about 25% restored. Now he is about 50% restored. And the sex gets better as that percentage rises!! :love

my tips for encouragement of your bf or dh if he chooses to restore or is thinking about it:

1. Don't question him--it's safe and a healthy, inexpensive way to "re-grow" penile tissue and foreskin. And yes, his penis will get bigger as the foreskin grows. In fact, that will probably be one of the first noticeable changes besides looser skin and skin mobility. :thumb For a while, he might think he will never get anywhere with his foreskin because his penis keeps getting bigger. ;)

2. Notice the little changes--his glans will change shape and color. It will change from a dry, skin-tone "bullet" to a moist, pink-dark pink "ski slope." Noticing changes like this will let dh or bf know that you are paying attention and are interested in what he's doing.

3. Enjoy his progress!!--Play with it more, (if you are helping him"manually stretch" his foreskin, how can he say no to retoring? :love ). Sex will get better for both of you and he will enjoy the benefits of a foreskin, not only sexually, but bf says he feels more masculine, proud, and confident in himself in his day-to-day activities. Really, if your man wants to do something to boost his confidence and give him a good self-image, this would be it! :thumb

If anyone has any ?'s, please let me know, I will be happy to help!

[Frankly Speaking]

Christy, you are wise well beyond your years!

It's a shame that a man just begining his sexual life is having to go through this.


The most heart wrenching story I have seen is a guy that was on "Foreskin Restoration/3" that was told by a doctor that he needed a circumcision because of phymosis. Phymosis is easily "curable" with stretching exercises that rarely take more than two months. He consented to the circumcision and then did his research because he was so unhappy with the result. His restoration started 19 days after the circumcision!


Frankly Speaking

[rubylark]

Thanks for sharing that info! Congrats to you boyfriend for his progress w/ restoration, and congrats to both of you for knowing the benefits of leaving your children intact!:thumb

[oceansmama]

How do you do it though? I can't go out and buy a 100 dollar book, so if you have the way I would like to know :) Thanks
Maize

[Sarah]

Maize- There is a lot of info online. You might start your seach at http://www.norm.org that's the National Orginization of Restoring Men. There website covers the basics of what restoration is and why men do it. They also have local chapters of support groups. They have links off that site to some other info sites. there are many different techniques that rely on tension, weights, taping and manual stretching. Different methods work for different people or situations. Results vary from person to person- but it is usually a pretty long commitment- but once done- the results are premanent... when something "stretches" it will "snap back" when tension is released... but with the human body- the prolonged stretching encourages growth... when new skin cells grow- they don't go away. So they are not really stretching their skin- they are growin new skin.

Another website that I think is very informative because it deals with physical AND emotional issues- is this one:
http://www.wicked-envy.com/start.htm

Many men have published their diaries detailing how and why they restored and often they include photos of their progress.

Hope that helps
Love Sarah

[Frankly Speaking]

Here's the largest of all of the restoration sites with over 2,000 members and thousands of postings. These guys will be more than happy to help.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/foreskinrestoration3/

Depending on the method you use, the cost for all of the supplies you use can be less than $100. That's a lot less than what the procedure cost that makes restoration necessary.

Some men have claimed full restoration was accomplished in as little as 9 months but that is extremely unusual. the average seems to be about three years and one guy has been at it more than 8 years.

The results can be very gratifying!



Frankly Speaking

[Christy1980]

I love being part of this community!! And you are so helpful with everything!! I think it is a wonderful thing that you are doing with NOCIRC and all the men and babies that you are helping.

I think it's cool that you restore and are so candid with that info. I started learning in-depth about RIC from my current bf who is also a restorer. I had already made the decision before I met him that my kids wouldn't be circ'd, not just because of the human rights issue, but also because my exhusband,(i got married at 19 for the wrong reasons...big mistake!), had a serious complication in his "RIC" that left him with horrible suture scars and very small size. He refused to talk about it, and when the subject was brought up, he would get mad at me, but said that he would still circ his sons, in spite of his situation. I still (after 4 years of being with him and being married to him for a year), don't know what happened and at what age to cause such trauma to him. I couldn't believe after what he went through, he would put his own child through it, but his attitude was, "It happened to me, so it's normal." I am SOOOO glad I LEFT him!!!!!

So now I am with a wonderful man who I hope to marry and he restores!! His parents kinda always said his circ was "too loose," but when he hit puberty, it was "too tight." He started ?ing his mom, (a nurse), when he was 16-17 about what it was and why she did that to him. She apologized to him and told him that if she had been through nursing school before my bf and his brother were born, she would've never had them circ'd. So off he went to find out how to fix this great mistake that was made...and he was fortunate enough to find men like you who are open and honest about restoration.

So thank you Frank for all the excellent work you are doing!!!

[Enigma]

i'm missing something here. I've had sex with men cut and uncut and none of them ever thought they were getting substandard sex as a result of their circumcision. Isn't it possible that this author is just looking for a way to sell books and that this is a pseudo issue?

[Sarah]

Your first presumption is that every man who is restoring would be doing so specifically because he was dissatisfied with his sex life.

This is not true.

Your next presumption is that just because you have never known a man who actually was dissatisfied with his sexual experience, that they don't exist.

They do exist.

Your third presumption is that an author could capitilize on decieving a large group of men who were otherwise perfectly happy with having a part of their sexual anatomy missing and making an issue where none exists.

That would be quite a feat!

[Enigma]

You're presuming that you know how to read my mind. You presume too much, grasshopper. I thought perhaps there were open minds here. In that respect, I presumed too much indeed.

[Sarah]

I've got an open mind... so state your case.

Love Sarah

[Frankly Speaking]

Enigma:

Let me answer last first and first last.

Jim Bigelow wrote the book before the internet when few men had any idea that there was even an issue. Jim couldn't find a publisher who would even publish it for him for several years until Hourglass publishing showed up. Hourglass never thought it would be profitable but thought the issue was an important one. They agreed to publish the book in a small run that if it sold out would let them break even or maybe make a little money. If the book didn't sell, everybody would lose money. After a slow start and finally word of mouth kicked in the book finally sold out and a second edition was published. The book is a large book with many photographs and quality materials in a "perfect bind." At a street price of $19.95, it's a bargain. What has happened is that the second edition has sold out and now it's a sellers market with one seller on E-Bay asking $119.00 for a used copy. At the time I started my restoration, I wouldn't even pay the $19.95 price. However, because of some work I'm doing with Marilyn Milos at NOCIRC, she sent me a copy free of charge. Knowing what I know now, I would pay 10 times the $119.00 price. Jim Bigelow and Hourglass Publishing make little money on the book.

Now for the other part of your post. A circumcised man has no more idea of what sex for an intact man feels like than you know what sex feels like for a man. An intact man is visa versa. A man at Fathering magazine's forum that is intact was doing a little experimenting and thought he had come up with an idea for a "kinder, gentler" method of circumcising. He really had no idea of what damage circumcision does and how it affects a man's sexuality. I had to do some explaining of the reality of the damage. This is what I wrote to him in part:




"There are some things that you don´t seem to be aware of as it applies to us guys that were done as a baby.

First, when the Gomco or Plastibell is put on the penis, it cuts off the frenular artery that supplies the blood flow to the frenulum. With the blood supply gone, the nerve that supplies the signal to the brain dies and is absorbed by the body. The end result is that the frenulum is no more sensitive that the rest of the inner mucosa.

Second, the inner mucosa being exposed for at least 20 years looses it´s sensitivity and is no more sensitive than the shaft skin. The glans, which isn´t an incredibly sensitive organ further looses sensitivity.

The end result is that it takes an incredible amount of stimulation to make the thing work. If it weren´t for massive amounts of testosterone and copious involvement of the primary sex organ (the brain) it would just be a dead stick. The problem is as you get older, the testosterone level starts dropping and the brain isn´t as easily excitable. Problems start cropping up. The signals that would have come from the frenulum, frenar band and inner mucosa just aren´t there. The only thing that is left is the 10-12 second blast of the orgasm and that gets to be not quite enough to adequately reward the brain for the effort expended. The brain begins to loose interest and achieving an erection and having an orgasm becomes more difficult and the brain begins to figure out that it´s not getting an adequate reward for the effort it's putting in and is even less interested in successive times. As it gets more and more difficult, all of a sudden, the conscious man realizes he is having a problem and worry and anxiety sets in further diverting the attention of the brain until eventually the entire system from penis to brain is paralyzed or as it is better known; Impotent!"



You see, a man's sexuality peaks in his late teens or early 20's and it is in a downward spiral for the rest of his life. The intact man starts at the top of the spiral. The circumcised man starts more than half way down the spiral. Guess who gets to the bottom first?

From my own experience with restoring I know without doubt that I had lost 60% of my sexuality to circumcision. The guys that were circumcised as adults typically report 80% to 90% reduction. The guys that were circumcised as adults still have a functioning remnant of their frenulum which leads me to believe that 90%may be a conservative estimate of the loss to infant circumcision. There is really no way for me to know. I have no more idea of what a frenulum feels like than a woman knows what sex for a man feels like. Intact men tell me about an intense sensation when they stretch their frenulum or frenar band and I just can't imagine that sensation.

Women in the Sudan part of Africa that have had extensive genital mutilation report satisfying and rewarding sexual relationships with their husbands. This is after their clitoris has been cut out! They even report having orgasms! How can that be? Men that have had genital mutilation report rewarding and satisfying relationshipswith their wives. This is after their foreskins (the most sensitive part of their organ) has been cut off! They even report having orgasms! How can that be?

Two thirds of the nerves in the foreskin are concentrated in the final third nearest the tip. The part that remains after circumcision doesn't have a lot of nerve endings. the part that is left is supposed to stay damp and be protected. When it is exposed it begins to toughen to cope with the drastically more harsh environment it must deal with. It's lkie your hands. If you do manual labor, the skin will get thicker and tougher. The glans does this. the skin surface thickens by about 5 times it's normal thickness and just like your hands that are calloused, it has a lot less feeling.

I think you will agree, this is not a pseudo issue.



Frankly Speaking

[Christy1980]

Who makes more money....the publisher of the book, or Phizer with Viagra?

It seems that peds and urologists are making lots of $$ off of circs.....the peds when they do it, and the urologists treating "the unknown cause" of the man's impotency in his later years.

I know of one case of an intact man getting circ'd as an adult and wanting to commit suicide afterward because his sexual pleasure was non-existant. He contacted some of the guys at yahoo's restoration board and was literally crying out for help. He wanted to die because he gave up his foreskin to "phimosis," a condition where the foreskin is too tight around the glans to retract and can sometimes be painful. This could've easily been cured with simple stretching exercises, instead of a circ. When he found this out, after the circ had been performed, he went to his doctor and demanded to know why he wasn't told of this before his circ, and the doctor said "Circumcision is standard procedure for fixing phimosis." How about that the doctor wouldn't make any money if the patient went home and stretched his skin every day to make it fit over his glans?

As for having open-minds, I think most of the people on this circ board are some of the most open-minded people i've ever had the pleasure of talking to. You'd have to have an open mind to realize that there's something wrong with ritualized medical genital mutilation when the rest of your family and friends think it's normal.

You'd also have to have an open mind as a man, (or as the significant other of a man who is considering it), to take a serious look at restoration. I know at first, I thought it was a crazy idea and that it would never work, but it does. And it is inexpensive. If a man doesn't want to spend the $20 for the book, he can just check it out on the net. He can get detailed instructions and information and pictures FOR FREE! My favorite movie quote from 'American Pie' applies here: "God bless the internet!" Restoring is a alot cheaper than Viagra and visits to the urologist, and it is private and non-invasive. And it works!!

[Christy1980]

I saw on cnn or headline news that 3M stock/profits are up three-times more than what they expected at the beginning of the fiscal year.

I wonder if all that extra income is from men restoring their foreskins with 3m's variety of medical tape!!

:rotflmao:thumb

[Frankly Speaking]

I know that corporate America's profits are suffering so I did my part and bought a full case of 3M Micropore tape. Has anybody seen 3M's financial report this year? :rotflmao

[Xenogenesis]

Extremely Interesting Thread. Thanks people ...

:love

<last minute laila.>

[Xenogenesis]

bump

[mum2corbie]

Thanks for this thread guys. My Dh is seriously looking into restoration after I had this out load thought a few weeks ago. I said that I though restoration might help guys with burried penis gain a little lenght. So he's all for that. Only prob is he cont to think forkins are ugly. He was looking at restoration sites last night and did a little outloud thinking. He said some guys were pointing out that a draw back to restoration was that they "last" less time. I said GOOD. I don't want you to last so long. It takes to long and I end up sore and dry. He said dry is my probleme. I said partially but the the femal cycle can't allow her to be moise all the time. The penis is ment to be an internal organ, so when the woman is dry the guy is not and everything is ok. I said as I age I will be less and less naturally moist and this will issue will only get worse as time goes on. It's so hard not to say out right that sex with an intact man is soo much better. But saying that out right woudl be cruel. I am trying to not say to much, allow him to learn about it at his own pace. The mere idea of gaining lenth is what is driving him to look into it. But he is learning alot about the function of the natural pennis as well. So I think he is really now understandting WHAT a forkin is and why it's better to have one. I also pointed out that the only reason he thinks a forskin is ugley is cuz he's not used to it. We have 2 boys one is almost 4 and circed and the other is 17 mos and intact. I asked if he thought the babies little penis was ugley and he said yea, it's still weird. :(

Anywho, rather he restores of not, I hope he at least learnes from this that circ is wrong and that the natural penis is not ugley but beautiful as is the intire natural human body.

[ja mama]

.

[Frankly Speaking]

RE: "He said dry is my probleme."


But it becomes a problem for him when it becomes too painful for you and he ends up not getting any. That tends to be a real problem for men. You are right that it gets worse as you get older.



Frank

[mum2corbie]

Frank, I think he ment it was my FAULT that sex is sometimes dry for us. He did not realise it takes two to be too dry. He did not know that if he had a forskin his own moisure would override my ocational dryness. But he knows now. :D And he did have a "spark" of intrest on his face when I said restoring would only improve the already great sex life we do have. I would DEFF be more intrested, more often if I knew it would not end in me "praying" he'd hurry up and "get there". :eyes

[Frankly Speaking]

Ja mama:

Restoration is a trip that each man must make for himself. It's not something that someone can help with other than unwaivering support. Just let him know it is an option and be there for him when he is ready.



Frank

[Frankly Speaking]

Angie:

I'm sure he meant it was your fault. That's what I thought. It wasn't a matter of placing blame because I knew that my lover had no control over how much lubrication she produced but I knew that I could provide very little lubrication and so that was her part in it. If there wasn't enough lubrication, I knew we had to artificially provide it and I always was reluctant to put anything artificial in her vagina. I just couldn't see how it could be a good thing to do and may have harmful effects that may not be realized for years.

Where the real problem comes is in the different mechanics of the circumcised penis and the intact penis. An intact man makes a "seal" at the vaginal opening with the loose skin on his penis and also makes shorter strokes. This holds most of the lubrication inside the vagina. On the other side, a circumcised man makes longer strokes with the shaft skin moving in and out and with each outward stroke, the moisture is pulled out. Also, the corona of the glans and the coronal groove works like a squeegee to "scrape" the lubrication from the vaginal walls and bring it out. As the woman gets older, she produces less and less lubrication and what may not be a problem for a young woman can be a significant problem for middle aged women. Add to that the decreasing sensitivity of the man and it can become a real obstacle for the couple's sex life.

My experience has been that very, very little lubrication is needed for comfortable sex if there is enough skin to seal and not move at the vaginal opening.



Frank

[hakunangovi]

I am going off on a bit of a tangent here, however - - A lot of good advice has been given by members of this board to those DWs who would like to encourage their DHs to consider restoration. However, do any of you have any ideas on how to convince DW that this is ( or could be ) a good thing ? I am one of those guys that has missed his foreskin ever since I discovered it was gone!! I would love to try restoration, and I know that for me it would be a very positive thing, but DW is totally opposed. This goes way beond the amusement stage. The last time I broached the subject she got really angry and told me that I was a 'sick pervert '. As you can see, getting her to even read anything would be a major challenge, but it is worth a try. Do any of you know of a concise article that clearly states the benefits ? Any other ideas ?? Thanks.

[mum2corbie]

WOW HJ, I am really sorry to hear you wife is not suportive. I can see where this can really cuase a rift. I mean it's YOUR penis, you should be free to restore if you want. I can't imagine not being suportive of my hubby. When he started talking about wanting to take some weird pills to lengthen his penis, I thought he was insane and for helath reasosns, I was intirley apossed. BUT he will NEVER know that. I just smiled and said that I though he was just fine the way he was but if he felt he needed to do this for his own self esteme , more power to him.

I would expect the same unconditional support if I had to haev a mascetomy and wanted a reconstructive surgury. Or even just a reduction. It's my body I should not be faulted for wanting to do whatever I want with it as long as it does not physically affect anyone else.

I have no idea what to suggest for you to tell her. My only thought is maybe if you simply just do it, she will come around once she experiences the benifites first hand. I am bull headed, so that's what I'd do. lol. BUT I dunno if that's a good idea either. I am sure Frank will have wonderfull advice for you.

good luck,

[Frankly Speaking]

Howard:

Imagine this: You tell your wife that you want her to use pads instead of tampons, that you don't feel it is right to stick anything in there. What would she tell you? I imagine she would tell you that it's her **** and she will do with it as she pleases. (I put the asterisks in there!) Well, it's your **** and you should do with it as you please! (Again, my asterisks) You have had someone else make a decision as to the form that your body would take and you didn't like it. This time is your time. Don't let someone else make the decision for you again against your wishes.

I faced this situation several years ago. I told (now EX) GF what I was going to do and showed her some pictures on the internet expecting support. What I got was ridicule and mocking. I went ahead with it though and after a while when she begain to realize that this was an important and serious issue with me and when she started realizing the benefits, she started changing her mind. I'm not sure if she was ever totally on board with me but at least the ridicule and mocking stopped. She even helped me make some of the apparatus that was required.

Your wife may never understand or even support you in it but it's not her body. It's yours and it's yours to do with as you please. She didn't marry your ****, she married the total man and just because you want to change a part of it should make little to no difference to her. I could understand her objection if you wanted to have a sex change operation. That would make it her business but putting back a part of your body that should be there and has been stolen from you is none of her business. It's totally yours!

You weren't able to stand up for yourself when it was taken away from you but you are able to take a stand now. Don't let it happen to you a second time!



Frank

[veganmamma]

I am so glad for this thread. I was thinking of approaching dp about restoration, but had only heard of surgical restoration. I didn't want to encourage him to do something painful, drastic or incredibly expensive, and I didn't want him to think negatively about restoration based on that. How awesome that there is a way for men to be in control of their own bodies. I would fully support him in restoration if he were interested.

Btw, it was me who got his parents to apologize to him and his brother. :) PRetty good for only having a dd, huh? I tend to lurk here b/c I don't have a ds, but I certainly have a stake in circ.

Lauren

[Frankly Speaking]

This thread continues to amaze me. It's on a womens site and is about a man issue and is over 1 1/2 years old but it continues to pop up to the top. What does that mean?

To the point . . . . Surgical restoration is possible but I think there is only one doctor on the entire North American Continent doing it and based on the cost in the mid 1980's, I estimate the cost in excess of $30,000.00. There is also the travel cost and the time out of work for 3-4 separate procedures that I suspect would push the cost to over $40,000.00. That clearly puts it out of the financial reach of the vast majority of men. I have seen the justification for infant circumcision that it is cheaper as a baby and the adult man may not be able to afford the $1,500.00 cost of an adult circumcision. Well how about the cost to repair what was done to him that he may not want??????

One of the justifications for infant circumcision is that an adult circumcision will put him out of sexual action for 2-3 weeks but the surgery to put back what that infant surgery removed will put him out of sexual action for almost a year.

The more sense you try to make of infant circumcision, the less sense it makes!



Frank

[Nemmer]

bump

[lizzie]

Originally posted by howard smith
The last time I broached the subject she got really angry and told me that I was a 'sick pervert '. As you can see, getting her to even read anything would be a major challenge, but it is worth a try. Do any of you know of a concise article that clearly states the benefits ? Any other ideas ?? Thanks.

Hi Howard~

Just a thought... with the anger and accusations of being a pervert, is it possible she experienced something horrible with an intact man? Some type of molestation or rape? It's hard to say how you could broach this subject with her, other than very gently. You could always just outright ask her... maybe start with "It's my body... these are my reasons why, including increased sexual pleasure and intimacy with YOU... so is there a particular reason you're opposed to this? A bad experience maybe?"

I would recommend you really focus on the positive impact it will have on your relationship.. How much closer it will bring the two of you. Her resentment could also be connected to feeling like all you want is sex. (something women -heck, HUMANS- in general are offended by, but women with a history of abuse REALLY get angry over. I speak from personal experience.) Perhaps if you also stressed how violated discovering what had been taken from you made you feel. If she was sexually assaulted, she might be able to identify with that reasoning a little more.

I, on the other hand, hope to encourage my husband to make this choice and commitment.. I know he's (read: we're) suffering because of what was taken from him 40 years ago!! Thanks to you and Frank for being easy references for him to learn from!!

lizzie

[Nemmer]

bump

[mmaramba]

I'd just like to add that this thread (and the whole anti-circ board) got me thinking about a *lot* of cultural issues around vaginal "tightness" and "wetness," etc.

One thing from this thread really gave me a little :idea moment, though...

TMI ahead:

When I was a teenager and reading "The Sensuous Woman" by "J" (a popular book in the 1960's-- found it in the back of my parents' bookshelf-- :LOL), I read her tips for oral sex.

Well, I didn't have sex 'til I was married, but DH and I have always been really open and fun-loving in bed, so I tried an oral technique "J" had called "the butterfly flick" on his frenulum. According to "J," "that's the most sensitive part of the penis."

Nothin'.

Nothin' "special," anyway.

He was like: "I guess it's a little more sensitive there." :shrug

I didn't really do it much after he said that.

Well, I just read Frank's explanation that for circ'ed men (like DH), the frenulum is not more sensitive than the rest of the glans/head.

Mystery solved!

Now, I wonder if I can get DH to read this thread.... :mischief

[Nathan1097]

I'd just like to add that this thread (and the whole anti-circ board) got me thinking about a *lot* of cultural issues around vaginal "tightness" and "wetness," etc.

One thing from this thread really gave me a little :idea moment, though...

TMI ahead:

When I was a teenager and reading "The Sensuous Woman" by "J" (a popular book in the 1960's-- found it in the back of my parents' bookshelf-- :LOL), I read her tips for oral sex.

Well, I didn't have sex 'til I was married, but DH and I have always been really open and fun-loving in bed, so I tried an oral technique "J" had called "the butterfly flick" on his frenulum. According to "J," "that's the most sensitive part of the penis."

Nothin'.

Nothin' "special," anyway.

He was like: "I guess it's a little more sensitive there." :shrug

I didn't really do it much after he said that.

Well, I just read Frank's explanation that for circ'ed men (like DH), the frenulum is not more sensitive than the rest of the glans/head.

Mystery solved!

Now, I wonder if I can get DH to read this thread.... :mischief


Hmmm.....

That hasn't been my experience. Of course, everyone is different, but I can do this trick with my bottom lip to a certain-someone's frenulum area (yes he's circ'd) and the effect is WOW! So maybe its his anatomy, maybe its me, maybe its him, or maybe its all of these things combined, but it certainly isn't anything like what you describe above.

[Acksiom]

Well, I just read Frank's explanation that for circ'ed men (like DH), the frenulum is not more sensitive than the rest of the glans/head.

My own experience with men's reports and my common sense suggest that what 'most likely matters most' is (A) how much of our frenulums we've been left with, and (B) how badly the cutting and crimping involved further messed up the connections from our remaining nerve endings to the rest of our bodies.

[AngelBee]

:bag: What exactly is Restoration?

[Devaskyla]

a man's sexuality peaks in his late teens or early 20's and it is in a downward spiral for the rest of his life. The intact man starts at the top of the spiral. The circumcised man starts more than half way down the spiral.

For some reason, I was thinking about something similar as I read this thread, then I found this statement by Frank.

I just wonder if the whole "sexual peak at 18" thing isn't true only for circumcised guys. After all, when have all the studies been done that show it? It certainly wasn't before circumcision became common. What made me think about it is that dh (intact) feels he's only just hitting his peak now, in his mid-30's. He'll probably be annoyed with me for posting this bit of tmi, but he gets far more erections, far easier, than he did at 18. I just wonder if the whole thing is because circumcised men don't just start lower on the spiral, but actually start going down it a lot earlier than intact men.

[njeb]

AngelBee: check out this website: www.norm.org. It will tell you what you want to know about restoration.
Restoration is a non-surgical restoring of a man's foreskin. Many men report increased pleasure and sensitivity afterwards.
Happy reading! :)

[AngelBee]

:jaw I had no clue that was even possible!!!

[Frankly Speaking]

I just wonder if the whole "sexual peak at 18" thing isn't true only for circumcised guys. After all, when have all the studies been done that show it? It certainly wasn't before circumcision became common. What made me think about it is that dh (intact) feels he's only just hitting his peak now, in his mid-30's. He'll probably be annoyed with me for posting this bit of tmi, but he gets far more erections, far easier, than he did at 18. I just wonder if the whole thing is because circumcised men don't just start lower on the spiral, but actually start going down it a lot earlier than intact men.


Our sexuality is determined and driven by many factors but the main ones are (1) instinct, (2) hormones, (3) physical pleasure and (4) physical or emotional attraction.

In a small child, none of these are present so they have little to no interest in sex but as they age and get to their teens, their bodies start producing testosterone in significant quantities. They have the instinct to reproduce once testosterone is being produced. This accounts for the suddenly emerging desire to have sex. If you looked at it from a totally detached viewpoint, sex is a pretty ridiculous enterprise yet from the viewpoint of the instinctual urge that we have all experienced, it makes all kinds of sense. That urge is kicked off and driven by testosterone. BUT, and that's a big "but," if there were no pleasure reward from it, we would all quickly loose interest. Without the influence of testosterone, the physical or emotional attraction would quickly fade as well at the first argument or during other hard times. It would also quickly fade if there were little or no pleasure from the act.

As the man attains puberty, his body is flooded with testosterone. The thinking is that it reaches a peak in the late teens on average. It's possible that in some men, it doesn't reach it's peak until well into the 20's. However, once it reaches that peak and plateaus for a while, it starts to decline. It's at this point that the pleasure reward would become increasingly more important to his interest and desire in continuing an active sex life into his later years.

If the research is correct and if my personal experience is valid and the reports of restoring men is correct, then circumcision does reduce the pleasure aspect of the sexual act. From research I have read and my own noodling out of the information, it is pretty clear that circumcision has a strong correlation with midlife impotency and I believe it is simply because of the decreased sensitivity and thus decreased pleasure the older man experiences. It just falls below the level of adequate and thus, he is not driven to the next pleasureable experience because he has no indication that the next one will rise above the "adequate" level to exert the effort involved.

One thing that I do believe has a significant influence here is the intensity of the emotional bond with his partner. My experience is that as I become more emotionally bonded with my partner, the satisfaction from the sexual experience also improves. This may serve to somewhat replace the lost pleasure and continue the desire for a sexual relationship.



Frank

[onlyboys]

Bumping this terrific thread for my sweet hubby!

:couple

And a HUGE THANKS, FRANK! :thumb

[bravofrenchie]

I've been thinking for a while about how to broach the subject with DH. I'm going to get "The Joy of Uncircumcising" and leave it laying around. I've discovered that DH likes to read the books I'm reading when he's alone & bored.

As for the women in men's lives who don't want them to restore, thinking it's rediculous, gross, ect. I'd love to know what they'd say if some man said to them (upon seeing them naked for the first time) that some part of their body was "gross", and they'd better fix it before they'd even go near them. (A boob job, tummy tuck, face lift... "Oh, god, what's wrong with your labia?!")


Know what I'd say to him?













"Buddy, if you can't handle a real woman's body, mabye you'd better get yourself a nice, pretty blow-up doll. Believe me, you'll farther with it than you will with me." *slam* :LOL

[njeb]

What would I say to him? "Get out of my bed, you turkey!" :LOL

Anyway, back on topic: I think leaving a copy of the Joy of Uncircumcising is a great idea, Bravofrenchie! :)
One thing I did was go to www.norm.org and show my dh the website. Unfortunately, he didn't seem too interested. :( Maybe you'll have better luck.

[Minky]

I don't see the difference between a woman trying to get her husband to change his penis and a man telling a woman to get a tummy tuck before he'll go to bed wit her.

[bravofrenchie]

The price for "The Joy of Uncircumcising" is $25 for a printed copy mailed to you from NORM.
http://www.norm.org/joy.html
If you wish to pay by check or money order you may send a check for:

$10 - for the online, downloadable version, please include your e-mail address
$14 - for the eBook on a CD mailed to you (please include your mailing address)
$25 - Printed softcover copy of the book, shipped first class, (please include your mailing address)

to:

The National Organization of Restoring Men
3205 Northwood Drive, Suite 209
Concord, CA 94520-4506

[ericswifey27]

I don't see the difference between a woman trying to get her husband to change his penis and a man telling a woman to get a tummy tuck before he'll go to bed wit her.

:thumb Hear hear!

[njeb]

Minkey and eriicswifey27: I was merely surfing the net and found the website www.norm.org. and said, "Hey, honey look at this! Isn't this interesting?" I never said that I don't love him as he is or refuse to make love to him. We've been married for 19 years, after all. :irked: I just wish to enhance an already good sex life.
I don't think any of us on this board refuse to have sex with our husbands just because they're circ'ed. Before you start condemning us, why don't you research the topic a bit more so you know what we're talking about and why we are interested in the subject.

[polarbear]

I would suspect that a closer comparison would be a husband suggesting to his wife who has a thick fibrous hymen remnant start stretching exercises to facilitate intercourse and her general comfort.
Is sex fine without the stretching? Yes.
Is there anything wrong with her the way she is? No.
Is it purely selfish of him to suggest, especially when she may not be aware of the option? I don’t think so.
Will she be resistant, and possibly hurt from the suggestion? Maybe.
Will they both be better off after the stretching? Probably.

I suspect that you may not note the difference seen by some of the people here. A tummy tuck, nose job or boob job is purely cosmetic. Suggesting something where function can be improved at little cost is not.

[Minky]

Ok, I'm sorry. I think I personalized it needlessly. I can see my husband going out the door if I suggested something was wrong with his stuff. Sorry.

[veganmamma]

From what I saw, people were remarking on the nastyness of someone saying their husband wasn't good enough intact and needed a circumcision, then comparing it to him requesting a tummy tuck or something similar, then hypothetically telling him off for making such a request.

[ericswifey27]

Njeb, I am a bit offended by what you said, because you are putting words in my mouth, and assuming that I have no knowledge of restoration, which is pretty presumptory:

"I don't think any of us on this board refuse to have sex with our husbands just because they're circ'ed. Before you start condemning us, why don't you research the topic a bit more so you know what we're talking about and why we are interested in the subject."

BTW, I never ever said you wouldn't have sex with your husband because he is circ'ed, yikes. I don't think Minkey meant that literally either, but I can't speak for her. In any case, my "hear hear" was for the idea that telling a man to change his anatomy may be damaging to his self esteem. I was agreeing to that. I am not sure I would compare it to a tummy tuck though, it is more equivalent to breast enhancement or reduction.

And I also myself quite informed on the subject of restoration as I read many articles on restoration when making the decision to leave my son intact. But getting back to the subject at hand, I just stated what I thought, considering how my husband would have reacted. To explain further, my opinion is that when an adult has already had a circ, that circumcision is part of his body that he identifies with. It is part of his sexuality, and many, if not most men would be deeply offended if you suggested that he change part of his penis. I know this because I went through a similar conversation when I explained to DH why our son should be left intact- my DH got offended and hurt, asking if there was anything wrong with him- and that was when I was talking about no circumcision for my son, not DH, and yet he was really offended. Likewise, I suspect most women would be deeply hurt by their man saying they needed to "change" their breasts, anatomy that we identify with as part of our sexuality- and Minkey got that- she was drawing a parallel between the two situations, and I supported that with a "hear hear" . Again, I hardly suggested you didn't want to make love to your husband!

Just wanted to make sure if anyone tells her husband they are interested in this, some DHs may be deeply hurt by it. Just something to consider.

[ericswifey27]

oops

[njeb]

Actually, Ericswifey27, I agree with you! :) I would never, never say to my dh, "I think your penis is deficient and you should get restored!" You are right; it WOULD damage his self-esteem. That's why I merely said "Honey, look at this," when I went to a foreskin restoration site. He looked at it, wasn't interested, and that's that. I'm not going to press the issue. It's his penis, his decision.

Sorry, I was feeling a bit snippy that day. I'd just woken up and was feeling groggy and read more into your and Minky's posts than I should have. I'm very glad you've researched the matter and left your ds intact. :thumb

[ericswifey27]

I apologize as well... I reread my post and could see why you thought that I was just getting my panties all in a bunch. ;)

BTW , a very interesting thread, and I am sure we would agree it is a shame people think circumcision is the answer- not if they knew about all the trouble people were going thru as a result of one!