I consider myself to be fairly open minded, and while I love being an AP mom and wish all babies could grow up in AP families, I realize that everyone makes the choices that they feel are best for them and their families, and I respect their decisions. I don't pressure someone into making the same choices I do, and really only offer my AP-opinion on parenting when it's asked for.

But I find it kind of difficult making friends with moms who aren't AP. I often feel I hold back from saying what I believe because I'm worried I'll offend them, or they'll get defensive. For example, I met a mom yesterday for the first time (she is DH's sister's husband's cousin - follow that?) Very nice lady, her daughter was adorable, and she lives really close to home, so it would be fun to meet up regularly. But then she told me how she "Ferberized" her baby awhile ago, and how it worked great, but now baby is waking up again for a bottle (she also has formula fed since 6mo by choice), and so she may have to Ferberize again. And I don't say anything, because if I say I don't agree with CIO (why call it Ferberize??? Call it what it is - letting your baby cry alone), and she asks why, then I'd say that I think it's important that a baby knows her parents will respond when she cries, especially before the baby is able to understand any attempt to explain otherwise, and how it's so sad when a child gives up on crying and just falls asleep all by herself. How I think a child will lose trust in the value of her voice, and won't trust that her parents are there for her when she needs them. How I find it so sad to think of a little baby, crying alone in a dark room all by herself, wondering why people don't come to comfort her just because it's dark?

Anyways, sorry for rambling! My point is that instead I say nothing, except maybe that DS is still waking up at night but we cosleep and I don't mind getting up to feed him. I just feel like I'm not being true to myself, and almost withholding my opinions on things for fear of making someone feel bad about their own parenting decisions.

Am I overanalyzing it all? Should I assume that other moms are "big girls" too and can handle a difference of opinion? That they'll know I'm not criticizing their decisions per se, just voicing my own?

I'm finding it hard as well, the decision whether or not to voice my opinion, to friends are aren't AP-style parents. Case in point is one of my best friends, who after a long struggle trying to BF her LO, decided to supplement w/ formula and now when her LO is barely 4 months, to introduce rice cereal.

I totally freaked when I saw the pics, but decided not to say anything, because I know how hard she tried to BF and I didn't want to add to her guilt. But DH says that I really should voice my opinion, because it may be useful for her to hear a different approach/view.

I don't know I would hope that we are all "big girls" and can handle having different opinions, etc. After all I get a lot of different opinions voiced to me & I listen & politely disagree... (re: CIO, not BFing past a year, rushing solid foods, cloth diapers, etc.)

I think its all in how you say it, from a place with love & good intentions, she may not get angry or offended, she may just agree to disagree.

And isn't variety the spice of life, anyway? :wink

HTH

Off topic but I just heard the word "ferberize' yesterday. It comes from the movie meet the fockers and is the term used for CIO that "the dr." came up with, and the fockers are using on the baby. my friend said she ferberized her DS at 5 months:angry

While it can be very difficult to witness certain parenting behaviors that we feel (know) are harmful to children, such as CIO and formula feeding, I believe it is best not to say anything unless that person is asking for my opinion, is a first time mom who is clearly in over her head and is open to suggestions or someone who has expressed an interest in knowing more about AP.

I believe (call me crazy) that it is MORE uncomfortable for non-attached parents to be around us because it makes them feel guilty about their choices and I think that causes them to say hurtful, mean or simply ignorant things about AP choices.

I'm in a similar boat as you, OP.

My BFF is moving back to town and I'm so unsure how things are going to go.... her DD is 12 mo, was completely weaned by 9 mo. and i remember when i told her i was pg, she recommended this book that they just loved, worked wonders etc.... that book was Babywise. *shudder* I didn't know about ap then, but i knew that didn't seem right to me. Now i wonder how it will be with her... she's been my bff since jr. high, but ap has become such an important part of my life, i'm beginning to wonder how we'll be able to be friends as parents...

It is so hard. I feel like if I tried to only hang out with APers I'd be pretty lonely. one of my good friends did CIO and was always suggesting it to me and I gave up telling her that I just didn't believe in it and finally told her yeah, i'll try it. of course I never would but she just wouldn't quit.

I'm going to bump this over to parenting issues since it isn't specifically about parenting a babe.

I've found that I can take with my non-AP friends about our children, but not about parenting or discipline- if they bring up something on those topics I just say something bland or nothing at all, and change the topic. (sadly, all my my friends who have children right now are not remotely AP...)

I know that I don't have the diplomatic or verbal skills to tell someone that I think what they are doing is hurting their precious baby in a way that they would be able to hear, or that would make any kind of difference.

I am going through this right now.
A friend of mine's wife gave birth about 3 weeks ago and they are already "scheduling" the baby. And he complains about being "forced" to hold her because he doesn't want her to become "dependent" on him.
I just about wanted to pull my hair out.

Should I assume that other moms are "big girls" too and can handle a difference of opinion? That they'll know I'm not criticizing their decisions per se, just voicing my own?


Can you just say "_______ (cosleeping, extended nursing, etc) are what work best for us" rather than "we believe the best thing for babies is ________."

How on Earth did this end up in Parents as Partners? Anyway...

I agree that it is incredibly awkward to be in a parenting discussion with a Babywise-r or other CIO type parent. I don't have any problem with the moms in my playgroup who maybe do these things but we don't really talk about them and we're not really close. DH and I had close friends where we used to live and we dodged a bullet by moving because they are total Babywise-rs. I just wouldn't be able to be close friends with them because it breaks my heart to think of their beautiful children waking up in the dark, alone, knowing that no matter how they cry no one is coming to hug them or feed them. I know I can't save every kid, but it is too painful to have it in my face.

The only thing I could do (and I -do- do this) is casually present my own parenting style as "what works for us". Mainstream moms have no problem casually mentioning things like how their toddler cries for an hour when you put him in his bed alone, so I don't have any problem casually mentioning things like trying to get dd to sleep in her sidecar so I don't get punched in the face all night.

I think if you have a friend who is pushy with Babywise, there's nothing wrong with being equally pushy with, say, Dr Sears's Christian parenting book.

And there's always this approach, "Hey, I read the most surprising thing the other day... did you know that X actually decreases the incidence of Y? Wow, that's so cool, I'm definitely going to try doing X when we get to that point."

I can kind of see this from both sides, being a recently recovered/recovering "mainstream" parent myself.

From the outside, looking at an AP family is weird. When I first met one of my best friends (treemom to all you MDC ers) I thought her kids were wild and she didn't pay attention to them. After hanging out with her and her kiddos for a while I realised that they weren't wild (they are incredibly kind, polite and compassionate for their ages) and that she wasn't ignoring them--she was working really hard not to overreact about normal kids stuff. Just being around her has helped me to chill out and not constantly nag my kids about "being careful" or not climbing too hig when they are going to get really hurt if they fall, I just would rather they never get hurt at all IYKWIM? She never said anything to me about my parenting until I asked, and honestly I think that is the best way to go. She is a great resource: Go treemom!!!!

That said, another friend is very strict with her child and it is hard for me not to put my two cents in sometimes. I try to only say things that I am really willing to fight about, and wait until she brings things up. I can only think of two things we have really fought about and when we did we really fought! I said what I needed to say, I think she heard what she needed to hear and now it's over. For now, I don't think anything has changed in those two instances but I planted a seed of dissent and maybe in the future she will remember and reconsider? I still love her and think she is a really good parent, we just disagree about a few things.

Another friend lets her kids CIO at naptimes/bedtimes and is constantly mad at me for picking them up! Sorry, if she comes to my house and puts her kids in cribs crying, I'll be picking them up, after five minutes or so. That is just how it is. We agree to disagree.:o


I went though the Babywise training when my first was tiny, maybe three-four weeks old. I am trying to un-learn a lot of the junk that is now in my head as "fact" and really is not fact at all.

From my experience, the best way to talk to a Christian Babywiser (or anyother program for that matter) might be a simple question about the way God parents. The whole push of the program (in churches at least) is to raise Godly children, and I never stopped to think "does God ignore his children in order to teach them to be independant?" or "doesn't God want us to learn to depend on Him?" Why then the thrust to foster independance on infants? It makes no sense at all to me know, I just never put that together at the time.

I feel like it is important to say something, otherwise people will continue to think that "everyone" formula feeds, CIO's, spanks, whatever. I developed this opinion when I was pregnant, and it seemed like "everyone" had a c-section or an epideral or at least some good drugs during labour. It really helped me to hear women say that they delivered without drugs and to talk about their experiences and normalize it for me. I had a LOT of people say "just ask for an epideral right away, you'll end up with one eventually" and it really messed with my head. BTW, no drugs, lots of stitches and I am damn proud of how well we did. :thumb

So, when someone says they did CIO or whatever, I go ahead and say, "I could never do that because ______ , here's what we did _________".

I have come to realize that no one does everything exactly the same all the time...and honestly, that's been a very difficult lesson for me to learn. I just have to repeat my internal mantra that we all do what's best for our families.

I have a similar (kind've) problem with a friend - she frequently makes comments about "different parenting styles", usually as innuendo that she thinks my almost-3 year old is wild/unruly/a bully. The ironic thing is, we both believe in AP/gentle discipline - but her daughter is a full year younger than mine. So when her daughter was still a perfectly behaved 12 mo, my daughter was turning into a limit-testing two year old. Of COURSE my daughter is going to have instances of throwing fits over toys, stealing toys, doing things she shouldn't be doing, etc. It's not a matter of different parenting styles, it's a matter of age appropriate behavior. Now that her daughter is nearly two, and beginning to display some of the same behaviors my daughter is starting to outgrow, the comments about "different parenting" have slowed, and I'm able to silently laugh and point and think to myself "See, you're NOT a better parent than me, your perfect angel is a terrorizing two year old too!!!"

Sorry for my little rant there...but consider that you might be a positive influence on your new acquaintance. For example, say "I thought about using Ferber's approach, but then I read The Baby Book (or other applicable title) by Dr. Sears (or other applicable author) and he said XYZ, which just felt more in line with my own gut feelings and instincts for my child." You're not criticizing her approach, per se, but you are disagreeing with it and giving her a reference she might not have encountered yet, thus opening up a dialogue and giving her the ability to research another method for herself.

If you want to be friends with parents who have different parenting styles than your own, I think it's important that you *do* talk about how and why you parent the way you do. That's such an important part of yourself and your relationship to your kids; I couldn't imagine trying to withhold it and still be friends with someone. It would feel very awkward and limiting.

As others pp have said, you can totally talk about it in a non-judgemental way. I mean raising kids is so complicated, there are so many factors. I think we can say that certain methods are generally better but I do not think we can ever say that certain methods will always produce a certain result (with the exception of abuse, of course). For example, the idea that CIO will inevitably lead to detached kids that don't trust their parents. My parents did CIO with me because that's what people did back then, but I have always been extremely close and bonded to my mom :shrug. She apparently made up for any loss of trust I might have experienced as an infant in lots of other ways. So it's important to always keep that in mind. Even though you disagree with a certain parenting style, it doesn't mean the kids are necessarily going to be ruined for life.

So I'd say, go ahead and talk to her in a non-judgmental way. If she responds badly, defensively, tries to push her ways on you -- then you know that you can't be her friend. But not because she does CIO, rather because she is not tolerant of your opinions. She should be a "big girl" and be able to deal with the difference of opinion, but the only way you'll find out is by trying it. And hey, maybe you'll even help change her mind! :)

It is very hard for me to sit and silently watch someone, especially a friend, parent in a very anti-AP way.

I do not get dogmatic about it, though. I've tried to plant seeds here and there. But it does get to me, and I have to try hard not to judge, and to understand they have their own philosophy, and it is their right.

Now, if someone asks or shows interest...that's another story!

Anytime I've ever mentioned anything AP to a mainstream parent, I just get a bunch of lame excuses or reasons why they feel they are doing best. So, what's the point?

Then again, if there was a better way to do something that I hadn't thought of, I'd love to hear it. I mean, I know I wouldn't be the same mom if I hadn't run into MDC! I never would have learned about babywearing and baby-led solids. Maybe if I'd had an AP friend around when I was pregnant, I would have learned it from her.

Maybe us AP moms need to speak up, test the waters, you know? See how your friend responds to something and go from there. Who knows, maybe she will say, "hey, that makes sense!" If not, now you know.

If she feels strongly that she is doing the right thing, why would she be offended?

It is hard. Most of our friends don't ap or anything anywhere near it. We do tend to gently explain what we've done (if there's any sort of advice being asked for) and then drop it when they say it wouldn't work for them.

Dh recently met a new baby of an acquaintance and asked the mom if she was still bfing. She said she'd quit because she had to go back to work. Dh mentioned that I'd bf while working full time and pumping 3 times a day and she said that would have just been too hard for her. And maybe it would have. It was hard for me as well but I did it. I just don't think tons of judgment does much for a friendship.

We do try to let our friends know there are other options besides what they're doing but we don't push it, just to try to make sure they know we don't do it that way and we'd be glad to help if they need it.

Thanks everyone for your comments - all very helpful and valid. I've kind of held back from meeting non-AP parents (haven't joined playgroups, etc.) just because I felt like I wouldn't be comfortable talking about our parenting choices. But I think this new friendship will be a good place to "test the waters" and see how it goes spending time with someone who has made different choices than myself.

Interesting thread...I've been struggling with this a lot lately as well, bc i feel really passionately about not CIO and other related AP things. I stopped going to a mom and baby group bc everyone there was all 'so who's sleeping thru the night' at like 2 months. I was in the library the other day and another mom of a baby got chatting with me at the parenting book section - she was looking for Ferber's book (as rec to her by her health visitor!!) and said she was 'at the end of her tether'. I blurted 'Dont read that! 'before thinking but then tried to be really diplomatic after that, and just said I had done some research and found out CIO is harmful and the reasons why, and that personally I had decided it wasnt right for us, and personally this and personally that.

another day a mom was saying how she felt she had to put her baby in a nursery bc she wasnt getting enough stimulation from 'just' being with her (the mom) all day, which made me so sad, as I'd just read Penelope Leach's 'Who Cares?' which argues that this is a massive cultural lie, basically. And in this case it worked for me to just say, 'you know, what you were saying interested me bc i recently read this book...' and then when she opened up about it all I could understand her pov too...I'm learning a lot!

I am casual friends with one mom who does occasionally let her baby CIO (not for long though) but she is really nice in every other respect...one thing i've learned recently is that things arent black and white in parenting, and people can be nice/good people and still make choices I wouldn't agree with. But I am increasingly finding myself having to bite my tongue a lot...and I dont think I could be serious friends with someone if I had to do that all the time. You need to be able to be honest, I think. Anyway PP's have had some good suggestions on how to approach it, I like the 'what works for us is...'

I consider myself to be fairly open minded, and while I love being an AP mom and wish all babies could grow up in AP families, I realize that everyone makes the choices that they feel are best for them and their families, and I respect their decisions. I don't pressure someone into making the same choices I do, and really only offer my AP-opinion on parenting when it's asked for.

But I find it kind of difficult making friends with moms who aren't AP. I often feel I hold back from saying what I believe because I'm worried I'll offend them, or they'll get defensive. For example, I met a mom yesterday for the first time (she is DH's sister's husband's cousin - follow that?) Very nice lady, her daughter was adorable, and she lives really close to home, so it would be fun to meet up regularly. But then she told me how she "Ferberized" her baby awhile ago, and how it worked great, but now baby is waking up again for a bottle (she also has formula fed since 6mo by choice), and so she may have to Ferberize again. And I don't say anything, because if I say I don't agree with CIO (why call it Ferberize??? Call it what it is - letting your baby cry alone), and she asks why, then I'd say that I think it's important that a baby knows her parents will respond when she cries, especially before the baby is able to understand any attempt to explain otherwise, and how it's so sad when a child gives up on crying and just falls asleep all by herself. How I think a child will lose trust in the value of her voice, and won't trust that her parents are there for her when she needs them. How I find it so sad to think of a little baby, crying alone in a dark room all by herself, wondering why people don't come to comfort her just because it's dark?

Anyways, sorry for rambling! My point is that instead I say nothing, except maybe that DS is still waking up at night but we cosleep and I don't mind getting up to feed him. I just feel like I'm not being true to myself, and almost withholding my opinions on things for fear of making someone feel bad about their own parenting decisions.

Am I overanalyzing it all? Should I assume that other moms are "big girls" too and can handle a difference of opinion? That they'll know I'm not criticizing their decisions per se, just voicing my own?


I think there can be a different reaction if you say to another mom, "Oh I couldn't do that." versus "I don't think it's right for a mother to do that." Do you follow? I have often said that I could never let my kids cry, I have no threshold for hearing them in emotional pain. Never have I felt I offended anyone, because I am talking about the way I parent my kids. If someone pushes it with me I have explained that if I am having a hard day and crying and I need a hug, I would be crushed if DP said, "suck it up you need to learn to self soothe." and that I certainly can't expect my baby to cry themselves to sleep.

As I was re-reading the thread, I noticed a PP who said if her friend was over and laid the kids down to sleep, she (the PP) would pick the kids up with they were crying.

If we demand to be respected for our AP parenting, shouldn't we respect the parenting decisions of our friends, even if we disagree with it (ie: CIO)? I would assume that the PP talked her friend about not-CIOing, but the friend decided to anyway. That's her decision as a parent and she should not be undermined. How would you feel if someone laid your child down to CIO?

If we demand to be respected for our AP parenting, shouldn't we respect the parenting decisions of our friends, even if we disagree with it (ie: CIO)? I would assume that the PP talked her friend about not-CIOing, but the friend decided to anyway. That's her decision as a parent and she should not be undermined. How would you feel if someone laid your child down to CIO?

Well...there are some parenting decisions I disagree with but that I respect. And then there are some parenting decisions I just don't respect. CIO, circ, and spanking are among those. Now, I don't think doing those things automatically makes someone a bad parent (my parents did most of them, and I think they were *great* parents), but I can't respect the action itself.

Especially in my own house. Hitting is not allowed, whether you are hitting your child or your spouse or anyone else. If someone is alone and sobbing hysterically, I'm going to go comfort them, whether they are 4 weeks or 40 years old. I can't stop people from doing these things, but I also don't have to silently condone them. I'm not going to sneak into their house at night and slip their child into a sling to rock to sleep so the babe isn't crying it out...but I'm also not going to sit in my living room and listen to a frightened, lonely child call out for help without responding.

Well...there are some parenting decisions I disagree with but that I respect. And then there are some parenting decisions I just don't respect. CIO, circ, and spanking are among those. Now, I don't think doing those things automatically makes someone a bad parent (my parents did most of them, and I think they were *great* parents), but I can't respect the action itself.

Especially in my own house. Hitting is not allowed, whether you are hitting your child or your spouse or anyone else. If someone is alone and sobbing hysterically, I'm going to go comfort them, whether they are 4 weeks or 40 years old. I can't stop people from doing these things, but I also don't have to silently condone them. I'm not going to sneak into their house at night and slip their child into a sling to rock to sleep so the babe isn't crying it out...but I'm also not going to sit in my living room and listen to a frightened, lonely child call out for help without responding.

:yeah:

Moving to Parenting Issues :)

When it comes to parenting styles I firmly believe there is more than one 'right' way to parent. I like Dr Sears approach where he says that if it's not working for you than you need to change it and I think that is important to remember. For many parents some of the AP tools may not work for them, for their own personality or with the personality of their child. If you, as the parent don't have patience, then really many of the AP approaches are not going to work for you and make you a stressed and irritable parent, not good. As long as the kids are loved and the family is happy, to each their own. I will talk about what works best for me, but I'm no expert on parenting. I draw the line at hitting (spanking), but then I also realize that hitting is often the last resort of a parent who needs some support, not judgement. They need a break and a chance to breathe.

I guess part of me also feels like it is my job to model 'getting along with others' for my child and a big part of that is getting along with people who have differing views to my own.

I guess when it comes to parenting, I think most parents love their kids and do their best. The last thing most mom's needs is more guilt :)

I usually don't mind how others parent, but it's always harder with my actual friends, like my ex, who believes in CIO and that children learn to "manipulate you". I can't talk about the main interests in my life (AP, breastfeeding, co-sleeping etc.) because of how she thinks. I also had to hold my tongue when my friend kept saying things about using bottles with her daughter :irked:

I think you can share your thoughts and opinions as long as you do so respectfully and non judgementally.

If you choose to say something, maybe apply it to your child "We feel it's best not to let so and so cry." rather than "We feel it's best not to let babies cry".

You could always shrug while you're explaining your parenting beliefs and say "What works for one child doesn't work for all." And that's true. But one thing I think is very important to keep from alienating your friend is making it sound like you're attacking their parenting methods, or you think she's an awful mom.

I'm not saying that's what you're doing or will do or anything, but a lot of times AP mamas can come off as judgemental without meaning to.

So with all that said, I don't think there's anything wrong with sharing your parenting methods, as long as you respect her and her methods. Doesn't mean you have to agree, but respect is an important part of any friendship.

I think it's best to become a mentoring friend, rather than a criticizing friend.

I had a friend several years ago who must have cringed an aweful lot when we hung out. I sometimes thing that she hung out with me to help my child, more than because she liked me. She never criticized me, but she showed me how to be more gentle with my child (had one at the time), how to feed him more healthy things (who knew kids would eat tofu and didn't need sugar on everything?) and lots of other things. Granted, I was so attached to my son that although I tried at the dr's insistance, I never let him CIO and we breastfed for 16 mo, didn't cir, I carried him everywhere, etc. But I was awful with feeding and discipline.

Since her, I've had several mentoring friends and I hope that I've mentored some of my friends. Seeing other mothers' great techniques is what inspires me to be a better mother by adopting the techniques that I see them use.

Lisa

I live in a town where AP is the normal choice, so I have lots of friends and acquaintances with similar viewpoints. That has made it very easy for me to simply cut out friends who parent in a way that I think is cruel. CIO and hitting are total dealbreakers for me. Refusing to breastfeed for no good reason comes pretty close, too.

I "broke up" with a long-time friend, because every conversation I had with her stressed me out and made me weep for her children. When I realized I dreaded picking up the phone when her name came up, I ended the relationship. And I told her why.

Some parenting choices, like spanking and CIO are poisonous - they have an immediate and toxic effect on me - my blood pressure goes up, my adreneline rises, I feel awful. What is the point? I can live without "friends" when they make me feel so terrible. And I don't like taking up space in my mind feeling sorry for their children.

Maybe it's terrifically selfish, but when friendship brings me more unpleasantness than happiness, I let it go.

Am I overanalyzing it all? Should I assume that other moms are "big girls" too and can handle a difference of opinion? That they'll know I'm not criticizing their decisions per se, just voicing my own?

Y'know, I don't get all upset if someone tells me, "Your baby needs to get a bottle sometimes and not just the breast" or "You're making a big mistake by letting your children into the bed with you" or "You're spoiling your baby by holding her so much" or "You shouldn't let your child nurse past _____" (though it would break up the friendship if she ever tried to upset my child about any of these things).

I feel so good about my parenting choices, criticisms like this don't even phase me. Of course, I'd never yammer criticism at anyone like that, myself (and though I have been told some of the above criticisms, it hasn't exactly been "yammered" at me, either) -- but I don't see how sharing an honest AP opinion with a more mainstream friend, should be any different. And if hearing their opinions doesn't upset me -- I don't see why hearing mine should upset them.

I'd always heard that the differences between AP and mainstream are only obvious while the children are babies. However, I currently have one friend who's got upset with me over my gentle-discipline style. Anytime one of her children has hurt one of mine, she's hit her child. But when the reverse has happened, I've talked with my child and been more careful to supervise closely. My friend feels the misbehavior "hasn't been dealt with."

This difference of opinion seems to be much more of a friendship-breaker than differences in feeding methods and sleeping arrangements!

That said, I certainly wouldn't try to limit my associations to others who parent like me. For one thing, my oldest is now 8 and loves making new friends. I certainly don't want to antagonize their moms! I think it's important to distinguish between deeper-level friendships where we can share what's on our heart, and more surface-level acquaintances where the main tie is the friendship between the children (not that there can't ever be both).

I feel so good about my parenting choices, criticisms like this don't even phase me.

Yes!

:thumb

And I've armed myself with enough research that if anyone questions where I'm coming from, I can tell them, and back it up with good sources. :)

That said, I certainly wouldn't try to limit my associations to others who parent like me.

I certainly don't want to antagonize their moms! I think it's important to distinguish between deeper-level friendships where we can share what's on our heart, and more surface-level acquaintances where the main tie is the friendship between the children (not that there can't ever be both).

Yes again!

:thumb

I don't ever want to limit our associations based on finding people with similar ideologies and knowledge bases. That would be kind of boring and stifling. But like you said, I probably don't have deeper-level friendships with people who are starkly different in ideology.

Moms cannot handle a difference of opinions when it comes to parenting, in my experience. Everyone gets defensive.

That said, I don't think you need to swallow your convictions--but tread gently. Instead of saying, I don't believe in/support/would never...xyz, try just talking about what you do, and how it works for your family. Offer an alternative without the judgment.

Oops. my 15 month old posted. :o

i will not be friends with anyone who has children who don't trust them. i will not spend much time in conversation with some of the ILS because their kids look so afraid and won't really talk much. if someone does let their kids cry it out or they formula feed by choice or really pressing financial need etc. and their kids seem happy, healthy, and to trust their parents then who the hell am i to say anything.

went to my pediatrician today. he was in the middle of a rant about a doctor at the hospital forcably retrating my son's foreskin. then he went off on baby formula etc. he's a Lebanese man and i think he still finds Americans a little weird. he said that we have a great expression, if it ain't broke don't fix it. then he realized i'd stopped BF. i don't think any of the other patients in his entire practice are BF past six weeks. he was a little disappointed and embarrassed. he knows our financial stress and work needs and DS's therapy needs and he knew how hard i tried and for how long. he just said "hey every day you did was better than every day you didn't and he's only on the formula for a couple more months".

i like his take. if a family does the "best" thing then great. they may have personal reasons why the "best" thing isn't an option. none of his business. if a kid is happy, if a family is working then "it aint broke" so don't fix it.

i will not associate with people whos kids are afraid of them. i think i am a better parent than they are and that they're mean to their kids. i don't think i'm a better parent than anyone who has happy kids who are reasonably healthy considering their history and age. if i don't think one of us is the better parent than judgement isn't an issue and we're just two different people who have different needs.

It really depends on the scenario. Someone FF's by choice? Eh, unwise decision, but what does it matter to me? OTOH, if a woman told me she thought breastfeeding was gross I would not be interested in ever really talking to her again.

And I won't be friends with people who hit their children.

I'm mostly a live and let live sort -- I choose my preferred methods but don't get my panties in a wad over how other people raise their kids, as long as they are not abusing them.

That said, I was horribly uncomfortable (as were the other guests -- both parents and childless) when we were at a party recently and the hosts let their 18mo DD howl in her room for half an hour by herself... it probably would have gone on longer -- they even said that they often let her cry herself to sleep -- but I think they finally felt a little embarrassed and brought her back out to the party. It just felt like they were putting their desires to socialize way over their DD's needs, and it made me not like them very much for being so selfish. :(

It depends on how far different we are. Some things different here and there don't bother me but drastically different..well...that's something that just dosn't appeal to me. And because I am passionate about certain things, it's better for me to distance myself then to get myself riled up and angry over things that aren't going to change.

I have two friends who do some things similarly to how we do....both vax, one's child was mostly FF, one occasionaly spanks, but other then those things we have plenty in common and the differences are easy to overlook and move past. Others are just aquaintances because things are just so different and we don't have much of anything in common, plus several have come at me for my decisions so they stay in the aquaintence zone. I've learned the hard way that just because you and others are parents it dosn't mean you automatically have a bond.

In my short time here, there has been quite a few threads about friends who raise their kids differently and mainly how to deal with those non AP people. It's really weird to me, because I AP as much as possible, and not all my friends do, but we all somehow get along. We talk about our parenting choices, we don't always agree, but we don't really find each other that far away from the middle ground.

I'm starting to wonder if the problem is coming from the AP side. My way is the best way for raising MY kids, but if it doesn't work for another family, it's not going to be the best way for their kids. It's going to cause stress and upset, and as much as I might not agree with some of the methods (not including things I find abusive obviously) I still respect these moms for the vibrant loving women they are and if I truly respect them that comes across in my language and attitude towards them.

I think (and at the risk of being toasted) a lot of APers don't truly respect other choices. It might stem from us being seen as weirdos and a defensiveness, the newness of doing something different than "mainstream", or just a general zeal. But really I feel that life is too short not to learn from others even if they are on the other side of the coin. I've learned valuable things from "mainstreamers", whether it's a neat food choice, a new way to approach kids, or where the best sales are. *G* I see value in others and their choices even if I don't agree with them, and until people see that, I feel they are often going to be at odds with communicating and interacting with people who make different parenting choices. :)

I think it's harder to do when your kids are babies.

When they're older, and past the spanking/CIO years, then I've found that really it matters less and less. By then you'll know APed kids who behave like brats, and conventionally parented children who you enjoy, and you'll have more dealings with just the kids rather than the parents too.

I think when you're dealing with really little ones, there's so much pressure to have mommy friends, because well...you're not able to have much of a relationship with someone outside of having kids along...that you have more things to find fault with and be irritated by.

I enjoy a lot richer and wider circle of friends now that mommying isn't my 99 percent focus, I actually have time to develop friendships indpenedent of my children's presence (though most of my friends have been met via my kids), and I'm not so in the trenches parenting 3 littles.

So you know what, if you need to let this friendship go, then do so. You don't need to feel guilt, or to step on your former friends face to feel taller. You're just walking on different paths now. A few years from now, some people from her path might intersect with yours and you can enjoy each other, and where you were before probably won't matter as much to you. (though I suppose there are some people who are going to grill someone about how they parented their now 10 year old when they were 10 months old...if they can remember...I don't think most people really ask about that, or even care, as long as the current kid is nice and you enjoy the person.)

I've always framed my parenting style as a personal choice. If asked about it I'll give reasons, but I really try not to preach or criticize. I'm secure and I've found that most of my mainstream and childless friends are supportive and even interested.

Relatives are a bit of a different matter since you can pick your friends but not your in-laws. I find it hard to explain AP to my MIL and FIL since there's a cultural divide. I'm hoping DH will fight that battle for me if it ever comes down to it.

I live in a town where AP is the normal choice, so I have lots of friends and acquaintances with similar viewpoints. That has made it very easy for me to simply cut out friends who parent in a way that I think is cruel. CIO and hitting are total dealbreakers for me. Refusing to breastfeed for no good reason comes pretty close, too.

I "broke up" with a long-time friend, because every conversation I had with her stressed me out and made me weep for her children. When I realized I dreaded picking up the phone when her name came up, I ended the relationship. And I told her why.

Some parenting choices, like spanking and CIO are poisonous - they have an immediate and toxic effect on me - my blood pressure goes up, my adreneline rises, I feel awful. What is the point? I can live without "friends" when they make me feel so terrible. And I don't like taking up space in my mind feeling sorry for their children.

Maybe it's terrifically selfish, but when friendship brings me more unpleasantness than happiness, I let it go.

:yeahthat:

If I am stressed out - then the friendship isn't worth it. When I spend every visit feeling sorry for the other person's child - then it isn't worth it to me.

I find it hard to hang around parents whose styles differ from mine in big ways in general. Not just AP, but we are very laidback in what we let out dd (15months) try. If she is not in any serious danger then we really don't restrict her from exploring her world. We sometimes hang around another family whose daughter is five days older and that mom is constantly hovering over her kid and doesn't let her do anything. This is hard for me because it annoys me (even though that may not be fair) and we can't just sit and relax and talk and let the girls play. I try really hard not to be judgmental because everyone has a right to parent how they wish and how they are comfortable ut sometimes I just want to tell her that kids won't die from falling on grass and that if you always do everything for the child hwo will they learn to do it themselves? Anyway, just wanted to ass my sympathies. I don't really have advice because I don't really voice my opinion. If someone asked I would explain to them how I feel but I don't just volunteer it. I feel that I can at least show by example and if they see how dd is with us then maybe they will think hey thats not such a bad idea.

Its kind of a non-issue to me. Most of my friends parent differently, I shrug and ignore it. I don't pretend to even think that non-AP parents are "un-attached" thats absurd and offensive. (And I am pretty AP and get offended on behalf of my mainstream friends) I figure each parent does what they feel is best for their child. It may not be what I chose, but I know their baby is still going to grow up and be the beautiful creation that all children are. I realize that if we start restricting how other people parents and making them "bad guys" that they will do the same to us. I'm really no in the mood for a parenting war. I do my best and its a hard enough job without extra '"I'm better than you" mentality being added in.

If a friend brings something up that I don't agree with I usually just change the subject. Sometimes I may say "I'm glad you found something that works for you, this is how we did it". I still am offering another opinion/option but not saying "You are wrong, I don't like your way of parenting" because that is just going to cost you a friend.

*shrug* maybe I'm too easy going.

I am very much a "live and let live" person and hope that I set some kind of admirable example that someone will ask me about (if they admire me and want to live by my example! :love ).

Where I draw the line and what becomes a friendship breaker is ignorance. I'm not talking about ignorance to different ways of doing things. I'm talking about when what you are doing isn't working, you know this and appear to be upset about it, but you refuse to consider anything different.

Our ds really only has one option for kids in the neighborhood. Ds is 4yo and there are neighbors up the block with a 4yo & 6yo. The 6yo is a little wild, but the 4yo is beyond ridiculous. This is by no means an AP family and that has been totally fine for the last 3-ish years we've dealt with them (which has been light). But now it's getting to where they are hurting my child (physically and emotionally) and they neither attempt anything new, research what could be done or what could be going on, nor do they supervise their child more. For instance: ds comes in from playing with their ds in the living room and says "(friend) tried to eat me". I look at my ds like he's telling a great story and say "I'm sure (friend) is not EATING you!" and laugh. Friend's mother says "Actually, (friend) is a biter and he probably tried to bite (my ds)". She goes on to say that the preschool is pushing her to resolve it.

:bigeyes

My thought process is as follows (and yes, highly judgmental):

A) Did you think we couldn't chat IN the living room where you could WATCH your child? Because we've done that plenty of times!
B) I get that kids are biters, but the conversation progresses to where I find out you don't know what to do and haven't even asked the ped, looked online or hey--even asked me if ds has ever done this? I mean, you'll ask how we got him to read at 4yo (and refuse to believe that he taught himself--we must be competitive and holding back on you), but not this...?


And really, I have a problem with most of these parents less because *I* just THEM and more because THEY judge ME. And let's throw AP out the window for a second: I have a child with special needs. Great that he APPEARS mainstream in the settings you have seen him in, but the reality is that he HAS problems. Even if I WEREN'T AP, how do you spank a kid for doing something that he SHOULD know not to do at 4yo, but because his brain is miswired--he doesn't understand. At all. And because he has an auditory processing problem compounding the developmental crap, I can't explain it to him and I can't always verbally re/direct him.

I run into way more people who are insecure and therefore want everyone to be just like them just to validate themselves. So whether I'm different for AP, or ds's issues or because my hair is red--they're going to have something to say about it. So I will continue to try to reach out to people unlike myself, but I don't get my hopes up and I don't let it go on too long if they're not open-minded. Unfortunately, that's alot of them.




I get that some kids are just biters. It happens. But SUPERVISE THEM.

Off topic but I just heard the word "ferberize' yesterday. It comes from the movie meet the fockersUm, just FYI: The term may be used in that movie, but that's not where it comes from. Richard Ferber is a doctor who has treated many children with sleep disorders. Based on that work, he felt qualified to preach a method for "teaching" non-disordered children to sleep "correctly". :eyesroll This particular style of CIO is called Ferberizing based on his name.

Well, I now have a circle of AP/NP friends, so this doesn't come up quite so much anymore. But, there is still quite a range of differences in the group, as there's a whole spectrum. I would say our group is really understanding of each others' differences.

But I really don't feel like being around people whose parenting styles are DRASTICALLY different from mine. When I have a choice, I tend to distance myself. Luckily, the closest friends I had before we had children are very loving parents, and I have no problems with their parenting differences. There was a group of friends I had after ds1 was born. We were all part of a bf support group, so we had that in common. But as the babies got older, it was harder to ignore the differences... CIO, forced weaning, spanking hands, etc. It wasn't so much that the moms did these things, but that those who did were all saying that if we DIDN'T do them, our kids would be spoiled/manipulative, etc. The group fell apart when our babes were around a year old.

With family it's a bit more difficult. I once had a pretty good discussion with my cousin once about cosleeping and some of the research, etc. It wasn't so much about our kids as it was just an intellectual debate. I do not hide our parenting style. I will let it be known straight out that I extended bf, cosleep, etc, and that is what works for us. I figure if someone has questions, they'll ask. But I don't volunteer information on why I think what they're doing is wrong. Now, with a new mom who is frustrated and upset and thinks she "has" to CIO or has tried it because she thinks she is supposed to, I will gently and nonjudgementally share more information or point her to some references if she's interested. But, for those who are gung-ho certain they are doing things "right" and everything else is "wrong" there's really no point.

Now that ds1 is in preschool, I talk to the other moms and I've made friends without really having any idea how they parented their babies. There are some moms I wasn't quite as interested in getting to know "better" based on how they interact with their dc, but I'm still friendly. But it turns out some of the moms I really like have ended up telling me how they breastfed their kids until age 2 or 3 or do some other kind of np things! I think I must have developed some kind of sixth sense for seeking out like-minded people! :thumb