Workshop #3 - Baby’s Early Years; Circumcision

[Jacque Savageau]

Workshop #3 - Baby’s Early Years; Circumcision

Welcome to our third Natural Family Living discussion; Baby’s Early Years; Circumcision. This discussion will key in on Part 2 – Baby’s Early Years; Circumcision from Peggy O’Mara’s (http://www.mothering.com/sections/about_us/about_us.html#staff) book Natural Family Living (http://www.mothering.com/shop/index.php?target=products&product_id=29778).

Some of the topics we'll discuss are;


What is Circumcision?
Circumcision is Painful
What Is the Foreskin?
The Medical Pros and Cons
Urinary Tract Infections
Sexually Transmitted Disease
Cancer of the Penis
Cancer of the Cervix
Phimosis
Balanoposthitis
Circumcision and the Medical Establishment
Circumcision and Sex
Care of the Intact Penis
The Rights of the Child


Please see the cover story in the latest issue of Mothering magazine No. 149 July-August 2008 The Truth About Circumcision and HIV: Challenging recent research by Gussie Fauntleroy for more information and resources.

The issue of religious circumcision can often be a difficult topic to discuss. We have chosen to keep all religious discussions in our Religious Studies (http://www.mothering.com/discussions/forumdisplay.php?f=265) forum. Feel free to engage in respectful discussion with the knowledge that we will not allow debate over the issue of religious circumcision, nor will we allow debate on the merits of routine infant circumcision. Please be respectful to all our members and their spiritual beliefs so that the workshop can be a place of meaningful and respectful discussion for all our members.

We would like to invite everyone to join us no matter where you are in your thinking or feelings. These discussions are meant to be nonjudgmental so please keep in mind when reading members' responses that this is a true discussion based on Natural Family Living and not a place to debate or criticize. Feel free to tell your story; what were your initial thoughts about circumcision? Do you feel you good information was available to you? What have you learned that you’d like to share? If your currently facing this decision, what information would be helpful to you?

We’re excited to offer this workshop and hope it will give our members a glimpse into the grassroots of Mothering magazine and Natural Family Living.

This workshop will be facilitated by our moderators race_kelly (http://www.mothering.com/discussions/member.php?u=26013) and BelovedK (http://www.mothering.com/discussions/member.php?u=31259). They are here to guide the discussion and keep it on topic. They will occasionally post references or ask questions to keep the conversation flowing. Please feel free to contact them at any time with questions, suggestions or concerns. Please keep in mind our workshop guidelines (http://www.mothering.com/discussions/showthread.php?t=874173) and current user agreement (http://www.mothering.com/mdc/mdc_useragreement.html) at all times.

We are compiling a Natural Family Living Resources Sticky (http://www.mothering.com/discussions/showthread.php?t=876855) which we will update with each workshop. Please feel free to refer to it for more information. For articles and information on our current workshop, please see the Baby’s Early Years; Circumcision (http://www.mothering.com/discussions/showpost.php?p=10934981&postcount=5) page.

[BelovedK]

Hi all :) welcome to the NFL workshop on circumcision, I am really excited to learn and share with all of you.

When I had a son, it was a no brainer that I wouldn't circ my son, luckily my dh agreed, so there was no fight for me.

I would love to hear some of the challenges that some of you had, not so much in the actual decision, but dealing with the reactions from other people. I tend to get 'attitude' when dealing with opinions that I find "ignorant". It has been a challenge for me to reframe that outlook in order to call out my patience and educate others rather than berate them.

I think that by adopting that attitude, it may actually make people actually think about what is really happening when they circ, rather than polarizing them and causing them to be more hardened in their stance.

[PuppyFluffer]

I have learned so much by moderating The Case Against Circumcision forum here at MDC. I am very tahnkful to the members who post their experiences and their knowledge.

When I first learned of circumcision, my reaction was one of surprise and bafflement. Why would anyone wish to cut off a naturally occuring piece of their child I wondered. I happened upon a copy of the book The Joy of Uncircumcising in a progressive book store when I was about 20 and learned of foreskin restoration.

I have been against circumcision since I knew what it was.

When my dh and I were dating I aked him what he thought of several AP sorts of things as they related to children. When I asked him what he thought about circumcision, he said "No way would I do that to a child and frankly, I'd like mine back!" It was at that very moment that I knew he was someone I could marry and raise children with.

We just welcomed our first baby boy May 27th and having a real live boy to love has driven home the horrors of circ even more. I cannot imagine handing him over to a stranger to cut a piece of his body away for no medical reason. All of him is precious and right. So far no one has commented on his intact body.

I look forward to this discussion!

[QueenOfTheMeadow]

Hi everybody!

I've got 3 little boys, all intact. I'm very happy with the decision that we made not to circ. them.

I can remember about 10 years ago when I was pregnant with my first child, my mother asked me if I was going to circ. if I had a boy. I looked at her with a complete blank face and said, "ummm, I haven't even thought about it." She handed me a book about circ, and within 5 minutes I told her that I would not do that if I had a son. I spoke to my dh that night, showed him the book, and he said that he was with me on not circing. He is circ'd, but never said anything about wanting his sons to look like him, what his family would think, or that it was dirty, etc. I was very glad to see that he was on the same page.

I told my mom that night that dh had agreed with me completely and she was thrilled. :joy: She had been a maternity nurse for many years and was completely appalled by what she had seen regarding circ. The stories she could tell are awful.

She is no longer a maternity nurse, but she is a IBCLC, hypnobirthing instrustor, teaches a "hi, new baby" class, and she always talks about researching circ. She has had a lot of people bringing up the study done that linked circ. and HIV transmition. She's thrilled to see the new article in mothering this month too!

[BelovedK]

That is great that you had so much support, and how cool is that to have a mom like that :)

[frontierpsych]

I hadn't given much thought to it before my first pregnancy. I knew what circumcision was since I was pretty young (middle school, maybe?) but never really though about whether I would circ or not. I wound up on another forum where there was a debate on circ, and there didn't seem to be compelling evidence on the pro-circ side (most of it was stuff like how it reduces chances of this-or-that already rare thing, or aesthetic "to look like daddy" stuff.) so I was pretty anti-circ from then on, and have only become more so the more I learn.
I brought it up with DH and though he wanted to circ at first (because he is circed) it didn't take a whole lot to get him on board with not circing. I just explained to him the basic points that had been made that had me questioning it (mainly that it hurts and it's unnecessary) and he agreed we would never have it done to our sons.
I'm proud to say I've converted a few friends to the non-circing side as well. :)

[PuppyFluffer]

Frontier, can you tell me about your path to converting a few friends? Was it as easy as sharing info and then they understood or was there debate back and forth?

What tools did you use, just verbal conversation, printed material, online stuff?

[poiyt]

Before I had a child I always *knew* I would circumcise if it was a boy - as a woman, I always thought circumcised boys looked nicer - and the male genitalia isn't all that attractive to look at for me in the first place. When my husband and I started talking about having children - we made the deal that I would breastfeed (he was very pro-breastfeeding) if we could circumcise (if we had a boy obviously). He made the deal. Needless to say we had a girl, and I am breastfeeding. I never thought about how I wanted to parent until after dd was born - now I am much more "natural". I am pro-breastfeeding now, and I would not circumcize any future boys - though I havent told my husband that, he is not allowed to know that he was "right".

I think a lot of it comes down to how we were raised, and whether or not we are comfortable changing the opinions that were bestowed on us. I grew up thinking that there was no downside to circumcizing - it was just a choice - do it or dont do it. That ff was just as good for a baby, that CIO made a baby sleep better and be more well behaved - now that goes against all my instincts as a parent. It takes courage to do differently then you were raised - and I think thats why a lot of people still circumcise....just my two cents..

How is that for a first post on this community...lol..glad to be here!

[Jacque Savageau]

Before I had a child I always *knew* I would circumcise if it was a boy - as a woman, I always thought circumcised boys looked nicer - and the male genitalia isn't all that attractive to look at for me in the first place. When my husband and I started talking about having children - we made the deal that I would breastfeed (he was very pro-breastfeeding) if we could circumcise (if we had a boy obviously). He made the deal. Needless to say we had a girl, and I am breastfeeding. I never thought about how I wanted to parent until after dd was born - now I am much more "natural". I am pro-breastfeeding now, and I would not circumcize any future boys - though I havent told my husband that, he is not allowed to know that he was "right".

I think a lot of it comes down to how we were raised, and whether or not we are comfortable changing the opinions that were bestowed on us. I grew up thinking that there was no downside to circumcizing - it was just a choice - do it or dont do it. That ff was just as good for a baby, that CIO made a baby sleep better and be more well behaved - now that goes against all my instincts as a parent. It takes courage to do differently then you were raised - and I think thats why a lot of people still circumcise....just my two cents..

How is that for a first post on this community...lol..glad to be here!

That's an awesome first post! Isn't it amazing that if we really listen to our children and our instincts we can be open to learning new ideas? Very glad to have you here and thank you for your open, honest response.

[DoomaYula]

I was raised Jewish, and told that it's a religious rule that Jews circ. However, I was also raised by a single mom, and I'm an only child -- there wasn't much call to discuss penises!

When I was in college I took a Holocaust Lit class, and learned that many families tried to "pass" their children as gentiles during the Holocaust. However, the nazis would invade schools and ask all the boys to pull their pants down. If the boys were circ'ed, that meant they were Jewish, and they would be killed.

I still get teary just thinking about those boys.

My first pregnancy was unexpected; I was single and had just graduated from college. I found out I was pregnant with MZ twin boys. I leaned toward not circ'ing them -- I wasn't religious, for one; I thought about those boys killed because of their circ'ed penises, for two; and I just didn't want to mess with my boys' bodies, for three.

However, I did ask a Rabbi about the history of circumcision. He told me that it's just tradition, a religious custom. That wasn't really persuasive enough for me. And the cleanliness thing -- well, I'll just WASH them really well! That seemed like such a silly argument. I'd seen one uncirc'ed penis before my boys were born, and it wasn't ugly. It was just different.

I mostly chose not to circ because I just didn't want to mess with their bodies. It seemed really simple to me at the time. It still seems simple. Why just cut off a piece of their bodies? It really baffles me that people choose to do it. Okay, "baffles me" is a nice way of putting it, if you catch my drift.

For the record, when I told my mom that I wasn't circ'ing the boys, she said, "Well, I guess that's okay. As long as you vaccinate them."

I said, "Um, mom, I have something else to tell you..." :wink

[AustinAmber]

When I was pregnant I knew I didn't want to circ for all the reasons already mentioned. DH at first wanted to and I told him since he was the male parent that if baby was a boy he could make the final decision. Well I was almost ready to give birth and he still said he hadn't made up his mind. I got really worried because by this time there was NO WAY anyone would be cutting off part of my son's penis! I was regretting leaving the decision entirely up to him. In our last baby-care type class at my birth center they showed a video of circ. I cried along with most everyone else there. After that I told DH that I could not watch my son go through something like that and that if he wanted to circ then he would have to be there with our son while they did that to him. Thank goodness DH finally realized it for what it really was and he told me that he had been wanting to circ but seeing the video changed his mind. We did have a boy and he is intact. DH's main concern was that DS would be "different" than his friends, but he knows now that almost half of baby boys born now are not circed and that made him feel more comfortable with it.

[QueenOfTheMeadow]

I truly believe there would be a lot less circ. if parents watched a video of it before they did it. I think a lot of people really just don't know exactly what happens or they just don't want to think about it.

[forestrymom]

When I got pregnant with my first, I just assumed we would circumcise. Dh is, and I thought everyone in my family was as well. It wasnt' something I really gave any thought to at all, and thank God our first was a girl. I really didn't know much about natural parenting, but we had always eaten organic and used natural remedies, and I stumbled on this website when looking up something for my daughter's first fever. I then found The Case Against Circumcision, and learned that its not necessary. I just figured that there really was a reason to it. Anyway, I went on to learn more about it than I ever really even thought was out there. When I got pregnant a second time, I asked my dh about it, and he said he "didn't care" one way or the other. He certainly wasn't worried about his son looking like him, or really anything else. I didn't tell him at that point, but I wouldn't have had him circ'd either way!

I was super worried about my family, and what they would think, but it wasn't going to change my decision. In the hospital, after the birth of my son, my grandmother asked if they still routinely circ'd. I said they didn't, and that we had chosen not to circ our son. I was waiting for the tongue lashing, when she poured out the story of her 2 sons. My father, it seems was circ'd and had had nothing but problems as an infant, with his. She opted to keep my uncle intact, like my grandfather, and he had always been healthy. She was thrilled that ds wasn't circ'd and told me I would never regret it. This gave me such a boost of confidence, and validated that I had made the right decision (even though I knew I had anyway).

I am so grateful to this forum, for having led me to know what is right. My son was born perfect, naturally!

[AnalogWife]

My DH was born in Germany to a British mother and an American father--he's intact. He grew up mainly in the USA and said that when he was born his mother didn't even know what Circ was.

When I was pregnant I mainly followed a mainstream board and had no idea what I was getting into when I announced that my DH wanted to keep DS intact. I didn't know anything about the controversy, I was one of the "let daddy choose" clubbies and just had some concerns about the locker room. Throughout the drama, I left the thread believing that the Locker Room teases and taunts were a myth, that 50 percent of boys these days are left intact, it's no big deal.

Weeks/months went on and I told my DH that I knew that the Locker Room scenario was a myth, and he was kinda "huh?" I said that boys don't really look at each other in the locker room and therefore don't pick on boys who are uncirc'd, and he then admitted that he had in fact been teased. I was surprised. But even though he was teased about something so personal, he still wanted DS left intact. I think I'm very lucky to have a thoughtful DH...to think, I would have just as easily gone the other way. :(

[crazydiamond]

I always knew that I didn't want to circ. Unfortunately, when I was pg with DD, now age 3, I told DH that it was up to him. He didn't know much about it, other than to know that he was circed and he didn't feel it was a big deal, so he said we'd do it. Well we ended up having a girl and the conversation just ended there.

Last year I got pregnant and we found out we were having a boy. Thankfully during the time between my DD and my DS, I learned a lot about circ and now knew that I'd never forgive myself if I did that to my baby. I sat DH down and said that I couldn't just let him decide, that I really couldn't let him be circ'd. DH was a little taken aback, but he agreed with whatever I wanted. And that's how my little guy is intact ;)

Uncirc'd penisis are natural and normal to me. My parents chose not to circ my brother, and that was definitely a rarity back then! I've also had several uncirc'd boyfriends over the years and it never bothered me. What has bothered me. . well more like saddened me, is seeing how circing has left my DH with very tight skin. He says it's not painful or bothersome, but you can tell more skin was taken than necessary. And I think to myself.. all for what?

I never worried about what other people think. Believe it or not, it has never come up once in conversation. My parents are obviously onboard, even if they haven't said anything either.I just go around like it's the most natural thing in the world (well actually it is!). It doesn't really come up, though, because no body sees inside his diaper anyway. . and most poeple, thankfully, aren't rude enough to ask about the state of my son's penis.

[clothmumma]

When I was pregnant, I told my hubby that if my lil bubba was a boy, I was against circ. At the time he said he wanted any boys we had to be circ'd, so I started getting together legitamite articles, help support my case. After my baby arrived, and we saw he was a boy, I think his whole perspective changed, and he told me there is no way he could ever cut off any part of his perfect and natural body.

[jaxxy]

I truly believe there would be a lot less circ. if parents watched a video of it before they did it. I think a lot of people really just don't know exactly what happens or they just don't want to think about it.

I agree here. I really thought I was having a girl. So I didn't give much thought to circ. I really wasn't for it but didn't have an argument against it. I'm a nurse and have seen a lot of penises in my day :wink and most all have been circ'd. That was 'normal' for me. We had a boy and we didn't make up our mind until the very last day an OB came in and said if we waited until we left the hospital we'd have to pay out of pocket to see a pediatric urologist and have it done in the OR. (from what I hear that is really not so). My DH wanted circ and I was tired and not thinking clearly and consented.
DH went with him to the nursery and had to wait outside. He said he screamed like crazy. I don't fault my DH for this. He was a brand new daddy and just thought crying is what babies do. A few weeks later I started doing the research I should have done pre-birth and was horrified. I watched a video and was sick. I seriously couldn't get it out of my head for a month. I cried several times about it and was SO angry at my DH. It is really lack of knowlege. I don't know how it can be informed consent at all. DH still has not to this day watched the video but he understands very clearly that no more boys will be circ'd in our family! :thumb

[thewaggonerfamily]

How do you handle people who have had their children circ'ed? I'd like to get the info out there, but at the same time I think it is pretty hard to give the info and not make the parents feel like I think they are horrible people or make them defensive. Its a done deal, and for family and good friends I have to live with them and new aquaintances I don't want to leave a bad first impression. Its really hard because I feel very strong about MGM, but at the same time beating up someone for something that is done and likely was done because of misinformation or lack of info, doesn't seem very productive. But on the same note, people wont be better informed if society doesn't learn the facts. Any ideas from you wise folks?

[frontierpsych]

Frontier, can you tell me about your path to converting a few friends? Was it as easy as sharing info and then they understood or was there debate back and forth?

What tools did you use, just verbal conversation, printed material, online stuff?

It was mostly just discussion. I'm young, and so are most of my friends. Most don't have kids yet, and have never really put much thought into whether or not they'd circ. I still find a lot of people think you have to, or that it's dirty and hard to take care of if you don't. I'm well known in my group of friends for doing tons of research, so I do get asked about why I plan to do this that and the other. When the subject of circ comes up and my reply is "No way", most of them are genuinely curious. It hasn't been a huge debate so far, or anything I can't handle. The most common comments are that it's dirty or that the baby should look like dad.
Most of my friends also had no clue what was actually done to perform a circ. A lot of them thought it was just like getting a piercing or slicing a finger. They really didn't see the damage done.

[Twinklefae]

Well, for me, circumcision wasn't really an option. The government stopped paying for it back in the 70's. I've never seen an adult circ'd penis IRL. (I was born in 1980) I remember someone asking me if my first boyfriend (who I was sleeping with) was circ'd and not knowing the answer.

I've worked in daycare since 2002, and knew that 99% of boys are intact these days (I've changed diapers for 5 circ's out of maybe 50 kids. And that majority of those were religious) Plus, circ's penises always looked shrunk and small and scared to me.

DF is intact (obviously) and didn't understand why I even bothered learning about circ. It wasn't something we were asked about. To have a circ done here, you need to arrange it before the baby is born with the one doctor who will still do them, pay $350 out of pocket....

DF is good with me using him as an example of how good it is to be intact. And how it doesn't matter what Daddy looks like. He doesn't know if his father is circ'd or not (we think likely yes, but aren't sure) or either of his brothers. (that one is way up in the air.)

My biggest concern is those who still don't get it. My Best friends brother is one of the first boys to be left intact, and I think they must have been given instructions to retract as he and several friends were circ'd at 4-5 because of problems. He's TTC right now, so I wait til they get pregnant. I have another friend who thinks circ'd penises are "cleaner" and is TTC. I'll hit her up with videos and info when she gets pregnant too.

[poiyt]

There have been a lot of talk about videos - I did a search on google videos and you tube and Im either getting female circumcision, or the video has been removed due to content. Can anyone give me a link? I think seeing a video would change a lot of people's minds.

[mean_jeannie]

I truly believe there would be a lot less circ. if parents watched a video of it before they did it. I think a lot of people really just don't know exactly what happens or they just don't want to think about it.

I know my son would not be circ'd had I seen a video or been explained - properly - what it was. That being said, it is entirley my own fault for not doing my own research and allowing my son to be damaged.

There have been a lot of talk about videos - I did a search on google videos and you tube and Im either getting female circumcision, or the video has been removed due to content. Can anyone give me a link? I think seeing a video would change a lot of people's minds.

I don't think you need to look much further than these boards - check the forum - The Case Against Circumcision. I learned so much there! And now I am an intactivist; I hope to make my son one, too.

So many people just trust their doctors or want to go with the flow. I didn't know what kind of parent I would be before I had my son, and I had never heard of MDC. I send my pregnant and TTC friends subscriptions to Mothering Digital in hopes they don't make the same mistake I did.

[Jacque Savageau]

jeannie, I don't think it's entirely your fault at all :hug. As parents we make the best decisions we can with the information we have. Sometimes we make great decisions and sometimes we fall a bit short. What's important is that we continue to learn and do better.

[mean_jeannie]

jeannie, I don't think it's entirely your fault at all :hug. As parents we make the best decisions we can with the information we have. Sometimes we make great decisions and sometimes we fall a bit short. What's important is that we continue to learn and do better.

Thank you. I am pretty hard on myself about it, or I have been. It is frustrating to think that it is normal in the medical establishment to say, "Are you circumcising? I'll do it now." Instead of asking, "Do you understand what circumcision is? Would you like for the procedure to be explained to you? Have you seen a video on circumcision?" Like PP said, I hardly call my decision informed consent.

Thanks again. :o

[QueenOfTheMeadow]

Thank you. I am pretty hard on myself about it, or I have been. It is frustrating to think that it is normal in the medical establishment to say, "Are you circumcising? I'll do it now." Instead of asking, "Do you understand what circumcision is? Would you like for the procedure to be explained to you? Have you seen a video on circumcision?" Like PP said, I hardly call my decision informed consent.

Thanks again. :o


Aaah, guilt. Motherhood's most rampant disease! :hug I know where you're coming from there. There are many things that I wish I had known more about, especially when ds1 was a babe. Please don't beat yourself up. You were only dong what you thought was right at the time. Now you have more information and are able to make an informed decision.

[*MamaJen*]

I really clearly remember the first time I thought about circumcision. I was a teenager, and my older cousin, who is very, very mainstream and who had just had a baby, was talking about caring for her son's circumcision. She was talking about how sorry she felt for the baby, and how it was so raw and painful, but "It had to be done."
At that moment, I remember looking at her and thinking, no, it really doesn't have to be done at all. I didn't know much about the pros and cons of circumcision back then, but I remember being so surprised and a little appalled that she didn't realize she had a choice in the matter.
In my early 20s, I spend two years traveling around the world. I got acquainted with some really wonderful men from a lot of different nations. It made me realize that the US stands alone in the circumcision debate.
When my son was born, it was a non-issue.

[Katfka]

The first time I remember the concept coming to light was with my first long term middle school/high school boyfriend. He mentioned a little while after I met his cousin for the first time that he was not circumcised, giving me 'religious freedom' as the reasoning.
I thought that was so *cool* in my 9th grade mind, that I wanted to be like his parents, respectful and hip.

When pregnant with DS1, I brought it up with DP, and really, it was the pain aspect that held me, and I ended up sobbing in pregnant hormones (though my DP agreed with me insantly,) I had just worked myself up, thinking about doing something like such to my son.

About a year after my son was born, I became a hardcore intactavist, which ended up isolating and driving my DP away from the issue (he's circed.) I've since softened my 'approach', and have found that talking about it without such heavy words leads to much more receptive individuals.

I have two Ds's, would love many more, and I'd never touch any of their body parts.

[jaxinsmom]

Well, like a few of you I assumed when I was pregnant that if I had a boy, he would be circ'd. Dp is circ'd and I'd never known anyone who was intact.

Our secondary mw asked us if we were going to circ if we had a boy, and I said 'yes' very mater-of-factly and she asked "are you going to circ if it's a girl?" and I said 'no' and made a mental note that she was a bit nuts and not to talk to her about circ...

Fast-forward to my labour/delivery and two days later. Our tertiary mw delivered our ds and when we inquired about circ she called my home (luckily got dp on the phone) and gave him an ear-lashing about "How could you even think of mutilating this Perfect-Wonderful-Amazing-Gorgeous little boy, after that natural, incredible birth????????!!!!!!!!??!?!?" She send some info with our primary mw, who apologized for her behaviour, and when I read that circ'd babies have a difficult time looking at their mothers when they bf I bawled. I looked at dp and said "no way, I don't know if that's accurate or not, but I'm not chancing it." I had had such an amazing experience bfing up to that point, looking swimmingly into ds's eyes that I couldn't imagine that being taken away.

So, he's intact.

It wasn't until I found this forum when he was 18 months that I really understood the magnitude of my decision and the guilt I felt at ALMOST circing him so easily.

I've passed info (including the video) on to my sis and cousin when they were both pregnant with boys.
They both circed.

I have a difficult time with ppl who circ KNOWING the information. When you don't know, you do the best you can -- but having the info in front of you and doing it anyway....I don't get it.

I am forever grateful to Kay, my mw for berating my dp into not circing. :love

[suprgrl]

I've passed info (including the video) on to my sis and cousin when they were both pregnant with boys.
They both circed.

I have a difficult time with ppl who circ KNOWING the information. When you don't know, you do the best you can -- but having the info in front of you and doing it anyway....I don't get it.


This recently happened with a friend of mine. I talked with her about it, gave her tons of info/video links and they circed anyway! I really don't get it. Maybe she didn't read it, cause I really can't see how someone could look at that stuff and still do it. Maybe I am missing something? I have not said anything about it since he was born. I don't want to make her feel bad for something she can't undo. But I really had to bite my tongue when she was talking recently about how her son had to be strapped down for an xray and was screaming "bloody murder". The poor baby was probably freaked out that his genitalia was going to be chopped on again! She went on to say how heart-wrenching it was for her to see, and how scared he was. An xray? That is nothing compared to what she did to her son when he was hours old!
Sorry... rant over.

[nerdymom]

[...]
I was super worried about my family, and what they would think, but it wasn't going to change my decision. In the hospital, after the birth of my son, my grandmother asked if they still routinely circ'd. I said they didn't, and that we had chosen not to circ our son. I was waiting for the tongue lashing, when she poured out the story of her 2 sons. My father, it seems was circ'd and had had nothing but problems as an infant, with his. She opted to keep my uncle intact, like my grandfather, and he had always been healthy. She was thrilled that ds wasn't circ'd and told me I would never regret it. This gave me such a boost of confidence, and validated that I had made the right decision (even though I knew I had anyway).

I am so grateful to this forum, for having led me to know what is right. My son was born perfect, naturally!

That's a beautiful story! I love it when support and encouragement comes from suprise sources.

There have been a lot of talk about videos - I did a search on google videos and you tube and Im either getting female circumcision, or the video has been removed due to content. Can anyone give me a link? I think seeing a video would change a lot of people's minds.

Well, the only place I've seen it is on an episode of Penn & Teller's show "Bullsh**". (I don't know what season it was. If you have Netflix you should be able look up which episode it is and order it.) I was talking about circ witha friend of mine, and her husband over heard and said, YOU HAVE TO WATCH THIS. He pulled out the DVD and showed us the episode. I was about 10 weeks pregnant and I sobbed and had to leave the room. Sadly, though this TV show that they had both watched many times was AGAINST circ, my friends are going to circ their firstborn. I don't understand it, but I can't change it either.

This is such an emotional issue for me...I think I'm going to take a break. be back later.

[QueenOfTheMeadow]

I was thinking about how dh might feel about the discusion of circ. He was all for not circing, but I wondered if it made him feel bad in a way, because he is circ'd. He said that it didn't, because the only other person who he really cared about what they thought about his penis obviously didn't have any problem with it, since we have three chilren. :lol Now there's logic for you.

I does seem though that circ'd men do seem to have a harder time accepting or supporting having intact sons. I've heard the comment about wanting the son to look like him, not be laughed at in the locker room, not have a woman run screaming from the room, etc. But I wonder if there isn't a bit of a feeling that if they keep their son intact, then they are saying that there is something wrong with their penis? So sometimes I think it can be a very delicate situation when approaching a man about keeping their son intact.

[LoganBsMom]

How do you handle people who have had their children circ'ed? I'd like to get the info out there, but at the same time I think it is pretty hard to give the info and not make the parents feel like I think they are horrible people or make them defensive. Its a done deal, and for family and good friends I have to live with them and new aquaintances I don't want to leave a bad first impression. Its really hard because I feel very strong about MGM, but at the same time beating up someone for something that is done and likely was done because of misinformation or lack of info, doesn't seem very productive. But on the same note, people wont be better informed if society doesn't learn the facts. Any ideas from you wise folks?

I just want to add this is a very good point. My son is circed, and I don't feel bad for making that decision. We are pregnant again, and once we find out what we are having we will have to make that decision again. I don't know at this point what it will be. What I want is more information on BOTH the pros and cons of circing. What I find off putting are really strong opionions which make parents feel bad for the decision they make. I understand those opinions being posted in the anticirc pages, that is definatly the place for them. But if I ask for info I don't want a lot of "circing is going to destroy your relationship with your son" type of stuff, which is mostly what you get. So I guess my point is, if you want to get the info out there, get both sides, do it gently and don't make people feel like they did something wrong for making a decision that might not be agreable to you. And this wasn't aimed at anyone specific, just chiming in. Everyone here sound like wonderful, caring and kind people, and I applaud you for your convictions and beliefs. :D

[Jacque Savageau]

I just want to add this is a very good point. My son is circed, and I don't feel bad for making that decision. We are pregnant again, and once we find out what we are having we will have to make that decision again. I don't know at this point what it will be. What I want is more information on BOTH the pros and cons of circing. What I find off putting are really strong opionions which make parents feel bad for the decision they make. I understand those opinions being posted in the anticirc pages, that is definatly the place for them. But if I ask for info I don't want a lot of "circing is going to destroy your relationship with your son" type of stuff, which is mostly what you get. So I guess my point is, if you want to get the info out there, get both sides, do it gently and don't make people feel like they did something wrong for making a decision that might not be agreable to you. And this wasn't aimed at anyone specific, just chiming in. Everyone here sound like wonderful, caring and kind people, and I applaud you for your convictions and beliefs. :DCrissy, thank you for your honesty. I often hear parents say that they just didn't have much information and the hospital didn't make a big deal out circumcision, it's hard to find good information at times. Please do visit The Case Against Circumcision forum here at MDC and feel free to ask and look at resources there. I think you'll find the answers your looking for.

[PuppyFluffer]

How do you handle people who have had their children circ'ed? I'd like to get the info out there, but at the same time I think it is pretty hard to give the info and not make the parents feel like I think they are horrible people or make them defensive. Its a done deal, and for family and good friends I have to live with them and new aquaintances I don't want to leave a bad first impression. Its really hard because I feel very strong about MGM, but at the same time beating up someone for something that is done and likely was done because of misinformation or lack of info, doesn't seem very productive. But on the same note, people wont be better informed if society doesn't learn the facts. Any ideas from you wise folks?

It's a real struggle. I have a hard time setting aside my personal revulsion at circumcision to understand that a great many people don't know that it's a terrible thing to do to a child. It's so culturally ingrained. I was a sick and hospitalized small child. I remember enough about that experience to have a deep distrust of the medical community. It's been a blessing in disguise as it has made me a very educated consumer of medical services. I would never do something just because it was suggested or recommended by medical staff without doing my own research. I have to remind myself that most others don't have that background and do have a genuine trust of the medical advice they are given.

I thought circ was a bad idea the first time I learned what it was. For many people, it's their "normal" so they go along with it. Compounded by a medical profession that asks "Are you having him circumcised?" or "When are you having him circumcised?" instead of "Are you leaving him intact?"...and one is led to believe that circ is the thing to do. Full consent of what the procedure involves is not given and the real risks and negative side effects are not revealed. It cannot remotely be called informed consent when a mother signs the form.

In a culture that is so immersed in circumcision, it's easy to see how people go along and do it.

It will change as more and more people learn and those of us who know are responsible for teaching those who don't. I think the best audience is the youth and those who have not had children yet.

[PuppyFluffer]

Well, for me, circumcision wasn't really an option. The government stopped paying for it back in the 70's. I've never seen an adult circ'd penis IRL. (I was born in 1980) I remember someone asking me if my first boyfriend (who I was sleeping with) was circ'd and not knowing the answer.

I've worked in daycare since 2002, and knew that 99% of boys are intact these days (I've changed diapers for 5 circ's out of maybe 50 kids. And that majority of those were religious) Plus, circ's penises always looked shrunk and small and scared to me.

DF is intact (obviously) and didn't understand why I even bothered learning about circ. It wasn't something we were asked about. To have a circ done here, you need to arrange it before the baby is born with the one doctor who will still do them, pay $350 out of pocket....

DF is good with me using him as an example of how good it is to be intact. And how it doesn't matter what Daddy looks like. He doesn't know if his father is circ'd or not (we think likely yes, but aren't sure) or either of his brothers. (that one is way up in the air.)

My biggest concern is those who still don't get it. My Best friends brother is one of the first boys to be left intact, and I think they must have been given instructions to retract as he and several friends were circ'd at 4-5 because of problems. He's TTC right now, so I wait til they get pregnant. I have another friend who thinks circ'd penises are "cleaner" and is TTC. I'll hit her up with videos and info when she gets pregnant too.

I would like to offer a different approach. Don't wait until they are pregnant. It seems that there is a flood of "advice" when a woman is pregnant - a lot of it outdated and not appealing to the newly pregnant lady. I think people tend to ignore this sort of advice.

I think the time to get people thinking is before they have any vested interest in the information. They don't have a real live baby to be thinking about and they can get the details in a non emotional manner, digest the facts and form an opinion about it.

I have attended the Genital Integrity Awareness demonstration in Washington DC for the last two years. It's amazing how receptive to the information the youth are as well as people who don't have children yet. I spoke to many young people who were not defensive (even if they were circ'd themselves). They wanted the info and they were intrigued and they said they would really think about this when it came time to have their own child.

I think planting the seed of "circumcision is a decison you will be faced with and it's one that will impact your child for the rest of his life and effect his sexual partner as well" it gets them thinking. And if you get them thinking before, they can't really be hit with the question for the first time in a hospital post partem when they are not in any shape to be making a decision of that magnitude!

[bens_mommy_2005]

Hi! I'm the mom of two young boys (3 yo and 9 mos old). My first son is circ'ed, my second is not. When I found out my first was a boy, I decided not to circ. My mom was in support of non-circ, my husband was riding the fence, and all my friends felt I should circ. I rode the fence and did a crappy job of researching the topic. I really only knew mainstream. The day I delivered, I still didn't know what to do. I was scared to, and scared not to. A family member urged me to circ, saying he'd get infected and I'd regret it. My husband began urging me to agree. So, I agreed. I knew deep in my heart I shouldn't, and I cried as I signed the form and handed him over. I *heard* what the doc said about him not feeling a thing, but I *knew* she was wrong. I sobbed the entire time he was gone getting circed, and when they returned my newborn to my arms, I knew I'd made a mistake. Everytime I removed his diaper, I cried. As if to add insult to injury, he has had so much irritation and redness with the circ even 3 years later.

When I found out I was pregnant with another boy, I decided not to circ and stick to my guns. I feared the difference between the two boys, but a mom here on MDC explained that the best way I can tell the boys they're different is that "mommy and daddy learned some new information between your births, and we learned it's no longer okay to circ." I hope it never becomes an issue, but I will never regret not circ'ing even if it does.

This past winter, my baby had a bad ear infection and his family doc was out of town. He was inconsolable for some time, so we made the decision to go to our local ER, fearing a ruptured eardrum. I was as respectful as could be, and they were completely dead and quiet there that night. Still, as I answered their questions and began to let them know he wasn't vax'ed or circ'ed, I visibly watched them change their attitudes. The doctor, once he appeared in the room, was arrogant, rude, and horrific in his treatment. I was very much so mocked and discriminated against for my choices. When informed that my baby is not circ'ed and he did NOT have the right or authorization to retract his foreskin, the doctor mocked me and said, "Oh, and why's that?!?!" Dumbfounded by his treatment, I was sent home without any answers and a bill - he refused to bill it as an emergency and therefore our insurance refused to cover it (despite my son being less than 6 mos old!).

The next day, I wrote a 3 page letter to every person I could think of in the hierarchy of that hospital. I informed them of many statistics on circumcision and expressed my extreme dismay. I did hear back from the hospital, but it was too late for what was said. I was reminded once again of how so many doctors can make you feel like a *bad* parent for questioning their authority and knowledge. I'm saddened by the mainstream opinions on circumcision and the attitudes which are deemed acceptable by arrogant, rude doctors viewing careful parents as careless.

[LoganBsMom]

This past winter, my baby had a bad ear infection and his family doc was out of town. He was inconsolable for some time, so we made the decision to go to our local ER, fearing a ruptured eardrum. I was as respectful as could be, and they were completely dead and quiet there that night. Still, as I answered their questions and began to let them know he wasn't vax'ed or circ'ed, I visibly watched them change their attitudes. The doctor, once he appeared in the room, was arrogant, rude, and horrific in his treatment. I was very much so mocked and discriminated against for my choices. When informed that my baby is not circ'ed and he did NOT have the right or authorization to retract his foreskin, the doctor mocked me and said, "Oh, and why's that?!?!" Dumbfounded by his treatment, I was sent home without any answers and a bill - he refused to bill it as an emergency and therefore our insurance refused to cover it (despite my son being less than 6 mos old!).

The next day, I wrote a 3 page letter to every person I could think of in the hierarchy of that hospital. I informed them of many statistics on circumcision and expressed my extreme dismay. I did hear back from the hospital, but it was too late for what was said. I was reminded once again of how so many doctors can make you feel like a *bad* parent for questioning their authority and knowledge. I'm saddened by the mainstream opinions on circumcision and the attitudes which are deemed acceptable by arrogant, rude doctors viewing careful parents as careless.

It really is too bad people have to go through stuff like this. I work in the medical field, and I think the biggest thing it has taught me is to never trust everything a physician says. There will always be dumb, ignorant people out there, and we are all our own best advocate. My son is vaccinated, and I would never have a problem with someone who is not. As long as we are well informed of the decisions we are making to do certain things, we should all be respected. And in the end when this sort of thing happens, it is always the child that suffers for someone elses ignorance, argg.

[Jenivere]

Towards the end of my first pregnancy I started to research circumcision. I don't remember what I read but I don't think it took long for me to decide it wasn't something I wanted to do. I approached my husband with the information and it didn't take much to convince him. He is a very laid back and reasonable man. He told me years later that he didn't even know he was circumcised till he was out of high school, it simply wasn't discussed. We never asked for family opinions on the subject, it was after all our decision to make.

I had the on call Dr. for my son's birth so my normal Dr. came in the next day to check on us and asked if we wanted it done. To which I replied we had no reasons religious or otherwise to do it so we wouldn't. I wasn't strongly against RIC at this point; I had just decided I wouldn't be doing it to our children. The nurses and Dr.'s were not pushy about it at all.

It was not till after the fact that my mom told me my dad and brother's were not circumcised. I got some disbelief from the few in my husband's family that commented to us but no one really gave us a hard time. It has never been a big deal or greatly discussed. Many outside our family probably assume it was done since he was born in a hospital but we may get questioned if this next is a boy since it will be born at home. I look forward to being able to pass on information in a casual and non attacking manner.

My husband and are are now very strongly against RIC and he is looking to restoring. He didn't know what he lost until I started reading to inform myself. It does not upset him when I talk about (though I try to be very kind ) the downsides to circ because as he says he had no say in the matter when it happened to him.

[suprgrl]

But I wonder if there isn't a bit of a feeling that if they keep their son intact, then they are saying that there is something wrong with their penis? So sometimes I think it can be a very delicate situation when approaching a man about keeping their son intact.

It took a while for my DH to be able to admit this, but he has a hard time accepting that his body is messed up and sub-par. This is why he is oppossed to restoring. That and he is afraid that restoring would not make a difference in our sex life and he would feel rejected.

[DocsNemesis]

My ds was left intact because Medicaid doesnt cover it in my state and I wasnt about to pay out of pocket. I am one of those who didnt even THINK about circing-I have a sister and my mom was always a single parent, I just didnt think of penises much, lol. I was barely 18, I didnt have the net, for me it was just totally not thought of. Then when I was in labor the nurse asked if I wanted it done and I said uh...I dunno? Then my mom piped in with it being cleaner or something and I said ok. Even though I hadnt thought about it, I still had the whole *just a little snip* thing in my head. When she said it wasnt covered I said ok, nevermind. lol

I didnt really care either way at the time, so I took him home, cared for it like they told me to (ie dont retract at all-at least they gave me the right info!) and it was a non-issue. Flash forward 18 months and I met my dh. I remember when he changed his diaper for the first time I was bracing myself....he said oh, he isnt circ'd? And I said no. And he said THANK GOD!!! Wasnt exactly the reaction I expected! Dh was circ'd and hated it, had always felt it was a violation of human rights, and didnt want his kids circ'd. I also found out later his younger brothers were not circ'd and had never had issues. Suddenly I was an intactivist! I started researching it more and became more and more thankful that he was left alone!

We are expecting our 2nd son-my dh's first biological son-and of course he will be left intact. It may seem odd but somehow, I think this will be very healing to my dh. 10 weeks to go for another intact penis in the world! :lol

[DocsNemesis]

It was not till after the fact that my mom told me my dad and brother's were not circumcised.

I have to say-I have heard this so many times!!! From both men and women! I think its funny since so many men's main reason for wanting to circ is so they *look like daddy.* And then they find out that their own fathers werent and they never even noticed! I know my ds didnt notice that his father was circ'd until I told him (he noticed the neighbors son looked different down there and asked me why, so I told him) either.

[silverspook]

First off, let me say I grew up in Texas. Not exactly the most "progressive" part of the US...especially when it comes to circumcision!

I never gave circ much thought until we found out we were having a boy.

It was never discussed in my family...until we were having a boy, that is. Then all of a sudden everyone had an opinion about it! :eyesroll

As far as I know, DS is the only intact male from both sides of my and DH's families from our grandfathers down! That at least FOUR generations of mutilation!!! (I'm talking semi-immediate families here: my DS's grandparents, great-grands, uncles, great-uncles, & cousins, not distant-extended-type family like your mother's cousin's brother-in-law, etc. :))

I guess my first "research" into circ was in Peggy's book Having a Baby Naturally. I read the chapter on circ with my DH and we decided right then and there that was not something we wanted for our precious unborn son. We received staunch criticism/horror/disgust from family when they asked if he would be circ'd and we replied "No". My mom told me that she "had 'been with both' and believe me, he should be circ'd" :eek She also told me that if my sister and I had been boys, we would have been circ'd. That statement opened my eyes to the world of 'intactivism' because it made me realize that my son wasn't the only one who mattered. If no one would have stood up and protected ME from my parent's ignorance, who would stand up and protect other babies from theirs?!

Other family members had little jewels of advice for us too. My aunt (whose sons were both preemies and circ'd :irked:) said, very sarcastically/snarky, "Well that will be easy to keep clean". My grandmother said "He has to be circ'd! Otherwise he won't be able to pee or um...perform." :lol Such ignorance... After DS was a few weeks old, they stopped bringing it up. It's kind of the elephant in the room now (pun intended :p).

The more I learned about circ, the more of an intactivist I became. I have pro-bf/anti-circ bumper stickers on my car, and I try to be outspoken, especially to pregnant moms. Also young adults (like my college-age sister) and teens who are impressionable and open minded, yk?

My latest act of intactivism was yesterday at our LLL meeting where there were several prego new-comers. I introduced myself as Mandy, the intactilactivist. :D That got a 45 minute discussion going about circ! The pregnant moms said they hadn't even thought about circ, and were very interested in learning about circ, and then later as I was changing DS's diaper, they circled around and asked about intact-ness and intact care. I feel like I really planted a seed! I was so :joy:!!!

[Om Girl]

We're expecting #2 and anticipating a boy this time. I need some resources from your mamas about not circ'ing. I need supplementary materials for DH. He's going to read the current issue of Mothering, but I need some additional sources for him to look at.
Any help would be appreciated.
Please PM me with references.
Thanks mamas!

[Jacque Savageau]

We're expecting #2 and anticipating a boy this time. I need some resources from your mamas about not circ'ing. I need supplementary materials for DH. He's going to read the current issue of Mothering, but I need some additional sources for him to look at.
Any help would be appreciated.
Please PM me with references.
Thanks mamas!

Check out The Case Against Circumcision forum. You can post asking for references and check out the forum stickies. The regular posters in the forum have a TON of current information and will be happy to guide you.

[jwhispers]

We're expecting #2 and anticipating a boy this time. I need some resources from your mamas about not circ'ing. I need supplementary materials for DH. He's going to read the current issue of Mothering, but I need some additional sources for him to look at.
Any help would be appreciated.
Please PM me with references.
Thanks mamas!

Yes please come visit us in the CAC forum. It might help to know what concerns your DH might have. It would allow us to provide information most compelling to him.

[glongley]

Someone asked for info on videos of circumcision...

Warning: videos of circumcision can be very disturbing, so viewer discretion is advised. (However, if you are a parent considering circumcising a son, you owe it to him to know how it's done. If you think it'll be too hard to watch, maybe it's not something you'd want your child to actually experience.)

Here is a link to a thread with a video link, a transcription of the video, and discussion, on the Case Against Circumcision forum.
http://www.mothering.com/discussions/showthread.php?t=481025

Here is a link to the Penn and Teller show on circumcision. Raunchy and irreverent - with more than a few four letter words - but full of thought-provoking information, it includes segments of the procedure and much more. Guys seem to really get it with this video.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-2577091532653693892

[Night_Nurse]

There have been a lot of talk about videos - I did a search on google videos and you tube and Im either getting female circumcision, or the video has been removed due to content. Can anyone give me a link? I think seeing a video would change a lot of people's minds.

Warning - link has graphic photos (the video download link is at the bottom of the page:

http://intact.ca/vidintro.htm

[nerdymom]

I never gave much thought to male circ before I met my husband. I knew what it was, but I had never seen an intact man, and never really gave it much thought. I had studied FGM (female genital mutilation), which includes female circ, in a Human Rights class in college. The practice disturbed me, and I did a lot of research on the subject and ended up making it my term paper topic. However for some reason I never made the connection between FGM and male circ.

When I met my husband (born and raised in the Netherlands), I realized what an amazing thing a foreskin is! Personally, I find the uncircumcised penis far more attractive, not to mention more, ahem, pleasurable. From then on I assumed that if we had any male children they would remain intact. It was not until I found out I was pregnant and began doing research that I learned all of the other reasons behind not circ’ing and when I saw the procedure actually being performed on a newborn, well, that’s when I became an intactavist.

Also, let me just say, I agree with pp who said that waiting until a friend who is TTC is pregnant and then unloading such a highly emotional subject upon her may not be the kindest thing. She may be more easy to sway, but I think that approach come dangerously close to preying upon her precarious emotional state, which is not a very kind or loving thing to do. Do address the subject now, and later. But please don’t spring it upon someone you already know and have the opportunity to discuss it with pre-pregnancy.

[Quirky]

Also, let me just say, I agree with pp who said that waiting until a friend who is TTC is pregnant and then unloading such a highly emotional subject upon her may not be the kindest thing. She may be more easy to sway, but I think that approach come dangerously close to preying upon her precarious emotional state, which is not a very kind or loving thing to do. Do address the subject now, and later. But please don’t spring it upon someone you already know and have the opportunity to discuss it with pre-pregnancy.

While I agree that it's always better to discuss these issues before someone is pregnant, it's a little puzzling to me to assert that bringing up circumcision DURING pregnancy is victimizing a woman. :scratch Most women I know are totally capable of thinking intelligently and researching issues during pregnancy even if there are times that are hormonal. To me, the issue is too important not to bring up -- better to risk upsetting a woman than to have her agree to cut off the most sensitive part of her son's penis at the most vulnerable time of his life!

If you read the "mothers who circed and regretted it" thread in CAC, which is thousands of posts long, you'll see that the common theme is this: "if only someone -- anyone -- had told me during pregnancy what circumcision is and that I didn't have to do it." :(

Ignorance is not bliss. Circumcision harms not only baby boys but also their bond with their mothers. Holding back from speaking out against circumcision during a friend's pregnancy for fear of upsetting her delicate emotional balance is not doing anyone any favors.

[poiyt]

Warning - link has graphic photos (the video download link is at the bottom of the page:

http://intact.ca/vidintro.htm

I cried, and then I puked :( and now Im little angry :angry

[Sweetmilo]

I didn't circumcise my baby boy, and my co-workers wouldn't let me hear the end of it. He'll have all kinds of bladder infections, and problems and he'll just end up having to have it done later on in life.
I finally pointed out to one co-worker that out of her 10 grandkids (7 were boys) 4 of them had problems with their circ and had to have it done again. She finally left me alone.

My husband at first was we HAVE to circ!! by the time the baby came out, he was like, oh my god I can't believe that we do that to baby boys (we being of course our society as a whole)

[nerdymom]

While I agree that it's always better to discuss these issues before someone is pregnant, it's a little puzzling to me to assert that bringing up circumcision DURING pregnancy is victimizing a woman. :scratch Most women I know are totally capable of thinking intelligently and researching issues during pregnancy even if there are times that are hormonal. To me, the issue is too important not to bring up -- better to risk upsetting a woman than to have her agree to cut off the most sensitive part of her son's penis at the most vulnerable time of his life!

If you read the "mothers who circed and regretted it" thread in CAC, which is thousands of posts long, you'll see that the common theme is this: "if only someone -- anyone -- had told me during pregnancy what circumcision is and that I didn't have to do it." :(

Ignorance is not bliss. Circumcision harms not only baby boys but also their bond with their mothers. Holding back from speaking out against circumcision during a friend's pregnancy for fear of upsetting her delicate emotional balance is not doing anyone any favors.

I didn't mean to say that if a pregnant woman is plannignto circ, you shouldn't bring it up with her! What I was trying to say was that if you know someone TTC who is planning to circ, bring it up immediately. For me atleast, this subject is so upsetting that I feel like crying right now (no kidding), and I would hate for one of my friends to wait until I was expecting to unleash something of this magnitude on me. I would want to know sooner.

I think this is an important issue that friends should talk to friends about. I was just responding to a pp who said she was going to wait until her friends concieved before talking to them about circ.

I hope that clears things up. :thumb

[Birdie B.]

I don't know if we're having a boy, but if we do, he will definitely not be cut. I never thought about it much until becoming pregnant, and I have only seen one intact penis in my life, but it is an issue my husband feels very strongly about. It seems cruel to cut such sensitive skin, without any real reason. I would never think to do it to a daughter; why do it to a son? I can't imagine that he'll spend much time comparing his to his dad's, how often does that really happen? :eyesroll

My husband is circumsised, but his parents regretted it immediately when they saw how sad he was afterwards, and didn't do it to his younger brother. My husband wants to leave our son/s intact, and I totally agree:thumb

As for people who have family and/or friends weighing in on the decision, I don't really understand that. How is it any of their business? I cannot imagine anyone asking me if my son was circ'd - family or otherwise. That's just really foreign to me - my family would NEVER ask me such a question. I don't really care what they would say about it - I have no idea if my dad or brothers are circ'd, it's just not something that comes up in conversation.:wink

[mean_jeannie]

I does seem though that circ'd men do seem to have a harder time accepting or supporting having intact sons. I've heard the comment about wanting the son to look like him, not be laughed at in the locker room, not have a woman run screaming from the room, etc. But I wonder if there isn't a bit of a feeling that if they keep their son intact, then they are saying that there is something wrong with their penis? So sometimes I think it can be a very delicate situation when approaching a man about keeping their son intact.

It still very much is in my house. Dh is extremely defensive and bigoted - for lack of a better word - about it, and said his sons wouldn't have "anteater" or "elephant trunk" penises. He refuses to learn anything about the issue and I believe it's because it would make him feel badly about himself. His mother SAVED HIS FORESKIN and PUT IT IN HIS BABYBOOK!!!!! I know that last statement was pretty random, but I just remembered that I have my husband's foreskin in a book in my house.

I am so lost as to how to help this situation. I don't know that it needs to be helped necessarily right now, but if I ever get pregnant with another boy . . .

It took a while for my DH to be able to admit this, but he has a hard time accepting that his body is messed up and sub-par. This is why he is oppossed to restoring. That and he is afraid that restoring would not make a difference in our sex life and he would feel rejected.

I am never bringing up restoration with my dh - not as things stand in my household right now. When I first learned the truth about circumcision, I suddenly felt like I was repulsed by dh. I hated that fact, but it was true. It wasn't long before I got over that, I do love and accept my husband, it was just that I was - shocked, I guess. In fact, I started a thread about it a long time ago in CAC, where I got either support or reamed out.

There is a video out there that compares how an intact penis works during sex as compared to a circ'd penis. It is compelling video. Dh and I have zero issues in the bedroom. I have been with intact men and can't really recall much of a difference. But that was a loooong time ago! :lol :o

[Pumpkin_Pie]

I just watched the Penn and Teller video for the first time, and I think I want a bumper sticker or T-Shirt, or heck, even a billboard with the quote from the video: "Once you see an intact newborn penis, every other circ'd penis just looks wrong". I am not sure if that is the exact wording, but it is absolutely, positively true.

I have a son, and I was so passionate about not circ'ing him. I gave birth to him after a traumatic delivery, and as he was whisked away to be resuscitated the first thing I could think to say was "DON'T CIRCUMCISE HIM!!!!". I wasn't worried about any other possible thing, but that was weighing so heavily on my mind that I screamed it at the doctors and nurses. I had no idea that they didn't do it right there in the delivery room anyway, so they all had a little giggle at me, but I think I made my point.

I am so happy that I know quite a few mamas of baby boys in my area who all get together regularly, and none of them are circ'd. I went to a play group once since DS was born and a mama was changing a baby boy's diaper and he was circ'd. I didn't realize just how emotional the issue had become for me until that moment. I literally wanted to vomit when I saw his poor, scarred, mutilated penis. I had to turn away and I did start to tear up. I just held my boy tight and take comfort in knowing that I would not let his body be cut.

[QueenOfTheMeadow]

I didn't mean to say that if a pregnant woman is plannignto circ, you shouldn't bring it up with her! What I was trying to say was that if you know someone TTC who is planning to circ, bring it up immediately. For me atleast, this subject is so upsetting that I feel like crying right now (no kidding), and I would hate for one of my friends to wait until I was expecting to unleash something of this magnitude on me. I would want to know sooner.

I think this is an important issue that friends should talk to friends about. I was just responding to a pp who said she was going to wait until her friends concieved before talking to them about circ.

I hope that clears things up. :thumb

I can see see waiting to talk to someone about it if they are having issues TTC. It's kind of is like rubbing salt in the wounds to talk to them about what they should do when they FINALLY get pregnant. I've seem women just about lose it talking about actually having the baby when they are so desperately concentrating on just getting pregnant.

[triscuitsmom]

I honestly don't know where my thoughts on circ came from. My brothers were both circed, as was my Dad... and yet, I never even considered it as something I would do. I never really heard anything about circing with the exception of a story about one of my uncles. He had to have it redone at age six, and my grandmother recalled to me the memory of him sleeping with his arms way above his head for fear anything would come near the area and cause him anymore of the "worst pain in the world" (his words at six) :( Even as she told me the story she said it in a very, too bad he went through that, but of course it was necessary... sort of way :angry :(

When I was with my ex and pregnant for the first time I asked him what he thought about circ and he didn't even know what it was... he was circed but didn't know there was such a thing as a foreskin or that his penis hadn't always been that way... he was 20 years old! I told him I wouldn't do it, he didn't really care either way. I ended up miscarrying that baby however.

After we broke up I got pregnant with my DS. I didn't want to know what gender the baby was. I had the care of midwives and it was just never even really brought up past the initial question on the intake form. They did have plenty of anti-circ literature in the office though.

My DP is intact. He was so happy when we talked about it and I told him T was also intact. I'm pregnant again, due in February and this baby will absolutely be intact regardless of gender :thumb

[Blu Razzberri]

I still have a hard time reading about circumcision.

...I grew up thinking that there was no downside to circumcizing...

For me it was very much the opposite. I was convinced that being intact was a risk!! Everyone I knew was circumcised, there had to be a good reason for that! (Right...?) I was given the standard 'reasons' why it was important to circumcise (by the circumcising doctor, go figure :eyesroll ...I feel like a complete idiot for that!). The way I describe it, it was like pressure sales....right down to the close: "it'll cost you more if you wait until after you leave the hospital, because you'll have to take him to a specialist".

I was so broke then, I couldn't afford a candy bar from the vending machine. I was crying my eyes out after the doctor left because I couldn't afford to circumcise, and I thought I was putting my son at risk because of that.

Equally misinformed, my grandmother paid for it.

I feel like I'm making excuses when I explain why I circumcised my first son. I feel ashamed, because I feel like there was no excuse to have missed out on vital anti-circ information; or even to have missed the basic logic of 'if it ain't broke, don't fix it'. I know I made the best decision with the information I had at the time, but it doesn't stop me from feeling horrible.

My second boy is now three weeks old and almost every time he cries I think of my first son being circumcised. I have horrible flashbacks. Sometimes it's remembering holding him before they took him and feeling a conflict between my head ("knowing" circ was 'right') and heart (feeling it was wrong). Sometimes it's remembering his little body heaving from sobbing when they wheeled him back to me. Or worse still; remembering the relief I felt that it was over and we could move on as I tended to his fresh wound. It makes me incredibly sad, and sick to my stomach. I consented to let them torture a little human who I was supposed to protect from harm. :bawl I can't help but feeling that I should serve some sort of punishment.

Overall, it's been so horrible for me having learned the truth about circumcision, because ignorance was bliss - for me. It was easier to be ignorant about what I put my baby through. However, without the knowledge that I acquired on the subject, I wouldn't have had the proper tools to protect my next son; who is (thankfully) intact. I am now intensely anti-circ.

MDC has been a launch pad for learning about this, and so many other things. While I'm so grateful to have this site as a parenting tool in my life now; I can't tell you how deeply sorry I am that I didn't find it sooner!!

[Blu Razzberri]

I wanted to post my story before reading the rest of the thread. Now...

...it's always better to discuss these issues before someone is pregnant, it's a little puzzling to me to assert that bringing up circumcision DURING pregnancy is victimizing a woman...

I agree with everything you said in your post "Quirky"; and I want to add that pregnancy is the time when she'll be more receptive to the information (IMO) because the baby is more 'real' now. It's much easier to dismiss information on a hypothetical baby.

However, I have a couple friends with whom I've discussed circumcision and they don't have kids, or plans for kids yet; and I doubt they'll even consider circ now. And when the time comes that they do have them, if they even THINK about circ'ing their boy, they're going to get a harsh refresher course from yours truly. :wink

[janasmama]

Hello!

I have one baby boy, he's 18 months and intact. During my first pg I had found out what we were having, a girl, but I didn't believe it....I really thought we would have a boy so I wasn't very sure about circ'ing. I'm not sure if I would have accepted much information about circumcision at that point.

Then of course once having my baby I was much more protective over the things that would happen to he/she so when I did have a boy I just knew I wouldn't do it.

I think getting circumcision info during pg is a must for all mothers just b/c mistakes are made even at gender u/s. I wouldn't want to be prepared for a girl and then be at the hospital and get a boy surprise then have to make an uninformed decision.

[Twinklefae]

I agree with everything you said in your post "Quirky"; and I want to add that pregnancy is the time when she'll be more receptive to the information (IMO) because the baby is more 'real' now. It's much easier to dismiss information on a hypothetical baby.

However, I have a couple friends with whom I've discussed circumcision and they don't have kids, or plans for kids yet; and I doubt they'll even consider circ now. And when the time comes that they do have them, if they even THINK about circ'ing their boy, they're going to get a harsh refresher course from yours truly. :wink[/FONT]

Thanks for this. I am the poster that said I am waiting til they get pregnant to say anything. I am doing that for several reasons. One is that I'm not that close to one of the women, and they are having trouble conceiving, and I don't want to make them discuss it right now if they don't want to. The second is exactly what you say above, I think I will get dismissed if there aren't those Mama hormones in play. (Especially by the other woman, who is a good friend of mine, but it's going to take some doing to get her to listen to my information. She already thinks I"m nuts....)

[Blu Razzberri]

In a case where she's having trouble TTC, I can understand waiting to approach the topic. However, keep in mind that it doesn't have to be about HER baby. You can have the conversation in the general sense of "OMG! I read an article (http://www.nbc10.com/health/1808693/detail.html) on NBC news website the other day. You'll never believe this!! They put foreskin in face cream!!....Yeah! After I learned that, I got to wondering, and I did some researching..." Make that a platform to launch into conversation about it; bringing up the very best points you can think of on how it's a money making business at the expense of brand new helpless babies; and how the industry relies on the ignorance of society to keep feeding their wallets.

Knowing it's often difficult to approach people about circumcision, I've decided to do what I can to help out. Please check out my thread (http://www.mothering.com/discussions/showthread.php?t=942597) on the subject.