Workshop #4 - Baby’s Early Years; Vaccination

[Jacque Savageau]

Workshop #4 - Baby’s Early Years; Vaccinations

Welcome to our third Natural Family Living discussion: Baby’s Early Years: Vaccinations. This discussion will key in on Part 2 – Baby’s Early Years: Vaccinations from Peggy O’Mara’s (http://www.mothering.com/sections/about_us/about_us.html#staff) book Natural Family Living (http://www.mothering.com/shop/index.php?target=products&product_id=29778).

Some of the topics we'll discuss are;


Vaccination Concerns
Risks and Adverse Effects of Vaccinations
Vaccine Effectiveness
Natural and Artificial Immunity
Increase in Chronic Disease
Risks and Benefits of Disease and Vaccinations
Current Vaccines and Schedules
Vaccines and Big Business
What are Vaccines?
History of Vaccines
Vaccines and Parents' Rights
Making the Decision
Selective and Delayed?


We realize that this is a topic that many of our members are passionate about. Please keep in mind that Mothering is neither pro or anti vaccine. You will encounter posts here that do not feel right to you and that’s ok. This is an open dialog and we ask that everyone be respectful of others' opinions. Take what feels right to you and leave the rest behind. Please be respectful to all our members so that the workshop can be a place of meaningful and respectful discussion for all our members.

We would like to invite everyone to join us no matter where you are in your thinking or feelings. These discussions are meant to be nonjudgmental so please keep in mind when reading members' responses that this is a true discussion based on Natural Family Living and not a place to debate or criticize. Feel free to tell your story; what were your initial thoughts about vaccines? Do you feel good information was available to you? What have you learned that you’d like to share? What would you like more information on?

We’re excited to offer this workshop and hope it will give our members a glimpse into the grassroots of Mothering magazine and Natural Family Living.

This workshop will be facilitated by our moderators Arwyn (http://www.mothering.com/discussions/member.php?u=19551) and Amnesiac (http://www.mothering.com/discussions/member.php?u=1342). They are here to guide the discussion and keep it on topic. They will occasionally post references or ask questions to keep the conversation flowing. Please feel free to contact them at any time with questions, suggestions or concerns. Please keep in mind our workshop guidelines (http://www.mothering.com/discussions/showthread.php?t=874173) and current user agreement (http://www.mothering.com/mdc/mdc_useragreement.html) at all times.

We are compiling a Natural Family Living Resources Sticky (http://www.mothering.com/discussions/showthread.php?t=876855) which we will update with each workshop. Please feel free to refer to it for more information. For articles and information on our current workshop, please see the Baby’s Early Years; Vaccinations (http://www.mothering.com/discussions/showpost.php?p=10934981&postcount=6) page.

[amnesiac]

:w

I'm so glad we have the opportunity to share in this vaccination workshop. I hope you'll all enjoy the discussion & walk away learning something new.

I think this subject is one that many parents find incredibly overwhelming. It's often hard to know where to even start. Deciding how I felt about vaccination in general and how I felt about vaccination for my own family was an extremely long road. This issue was actually how I ended up finding my way here to MDC.

I look forward to hearing everyone's thoughts and challenges!

[Jazmommie]

I also have been learning through Mothering--started after my dd turned one and I had to cancel the appt-twice and then found a new Dr .
That was 8 1/2 years agoo--I was on the internet every day for 6 years --here mostly.
I have a 1 1/2 year old now also --my 20 year old ,16 year old and 9 year old are learning along with me .
I have a collection of books on health and vaccines and share my information with all who are on the same path as I .

I am still learning all the time -my challenge is trying to keep up with all the new information now that I am working full time .Thanks for being here .

[AnalogWife]

When I was pregnant I thought the No-Vax people walked a little too close to the edge for my tastes. I had an unplanned c-section and was in the hospital for a few days after DS was born, and by the third day I had a new roomie who had just given birth that morning. She was, shall we say, a little rough around the edges and when her OB came in to visit (whom I knew to be a high-risk OB) she mentioned having to give her baby the HepB shot. I snickered to myself and thought "OMG, that mom has hepatitis!" which was really bad and judgmental. Then the next day they came at MY son with a HepB shot, and I was thinking "Hey, wait a minute!!!" because IIIIIiiiii didn't have hepatitis. I was still dumb enough to follow, but it put up the first red flag, and then at DS's 2-month appt I discussed with the pedi how vaxes were making me uncomfortable, and he talked me into a slower schedule. After that, I started coming here and reading more and more about vaccines and at the 4-month appt I told the pedi I didn't want anymore vax, or to at least suspend them. It was sooo uncomfortable, the pedi seemed very sullen after I had mentioned it, but he's backed off ever since.

There's so much to know about them, and it's true, VERY overwhelming! I still don't know what our plans our, if we'll vax later or not. Stressful!

[Jacque Savageau]

It's interesting what puts up the red flags isn't it? For me, it was the Chicken Pox vaccine. I was S&D and then a nurse said "and now we have a chick pox vaccine!" I laughed thinking she was joking and made a comment about "do you have the one for bruises and common cold too?" When I found out she was serious I really stared doing serious research. I didn't have internet when ds was a baby, and everything I found in libraries was very pro-vaccine. It was difficult to find good information.

[cherimoya]

It took me a long time to finally be ok with the decision to not vax. Instinctively I knew from the first shot they gave my ds in Canada that it was not good, not what I wanted etc. It's hard to explain that feeling, but I knew I wasn't 100% ok with it. Eventually, after a lot of pressure from my Dr I decided to stick to the *basic* school vax schedule in Canada (doesn't include HepB, RotaVirus, Chickenpox & a few others).

So 4.5 years later my dd is born in the USA and the ped, hospital staff, other Moms are telling me I should get the HepB vax on baby's birth-day.....that's when I thought this is CRAZY!!! I read more (again!), I watched some good videos (Tenpenny), and read the forums here and after giving my dd her first vax at 3mo and lots of crying I KNEW that it was NO more vaccinations for us! It was not an easy choice, or an easy journey to get to this point, but I feel 100% sure this is right for us. We didn't give my ds his 4/5yo shots either.

The hardest part for me now is giving myself a break; i feel guilty about the shots that i have given my kids

[cherimoya]

also....I asked myself why did I have my kids vaccinated, and the answer was because I felt pressured, not because I thought it was a great idea!

[berkeleyp]

I feel totally overwhelmed by the vax debate and decision. I don't feel like I have the time, energy, and knowledge to make a truly informed choice. I am scared of the vaxes but also the diseases for the most part. With my toddler, I was critical of the vaxes but ultimately got convinced by my doc to do most of them. We skipped Hep B, Pox, and MMR and I think she never finished Hib. Now I am revisiting the issue with my new babe and really wishing I had more time to read. I read Stephanie Cave and started the Sears Vax book but I'd like to read more really anti vax stuff. Mostly I hate all the fear mongering on both sides of the issue. I am frustrated that the $$$ stands in the way of evidence.

[Materfamilias]

I read the Dr Sears book on vax and am pretty leery of anything more than his selective vax schedule now. We're in the process of selecting a pediatrician now who will not just tolerate but actively support selective vax. We interviewed one who had not done any reading on the whole debate, particularly the possible effects of aluminum (which is what freaks me out). He pointed out that no studies had been done that showed any problems from aluminum, which for me is a huge problem. He seemed to think no studies = no problems. For me, that's an argument ex silentio. He did promise to read up on it :eyesroll but also promised to fight us every time we came in about the vax. So now I'm looking into other pediatricians. I do think I've found one, but he's quite a distance from us...
One question I have is whether people have had trouble with daycares/schools not accepting children on delayed schedules.

[Kiddoson]

We do not vax. at all. we had no problems with daycare. To me, when my Dr told me when DD was 2 weeks old she would get 5 vaccines at once in 2 weeks my gut said NO WAY. I went with that and researched like crazy. I found a ped that would support us and she is a very healthy 8 year old. DS is 1 year, I think if he had been vaccinated our skin issues would be 10 fold. They say a childs immune system is not complete til age 8, makes sense that bombarding them when they are developing so fast causes problems.

[RedPony]

My husband and I decided not to vax our dd before her birth. I have always been very leary of what I put into my own body and I knew I needed to protect dd from these things as well. She's now an extremely healthy two yo who's been to our family doc exactly once at three months (mostly for the benefit of my MIL :lol ).

[alegna]

One question I have is whether people have had trouble with daycares/schools not accepting children on delayed schedules.

In most cases, you can't *technically* vax like that and have kids in daycares/schools. The way around it is to get a religious exemption and not tell them about any further vaxes.

-Angela

[mean_jeannie]

In most cases, you can't *technically* vax like that and have kids in daycares/schools. The way around it is to get a religious exemption and not tell them about any further vaxes.

-Angela

This is what we do. Ds got the regular schedule through nine months. He hasn't been back for anymore since. I primarily wanted to wait on the MMR, but at this time I see no point in it. Ds is 2 yo and is only in daycare now, but I have the exemption for when I need it.

Current daycare only cares about updated physical, hasn't demanded updated vax records yet.

[Arwyn]

Well, this was supposed to be my Welcome! post, but I'm a little late. :lol Anyway, welcome, and thanks for the great discussion so far. :D


I think this subject is one that many parents find incredibly overwhelming. It's often hard to know where to even start.
This is me. :nod We haven't vaccinated Naked Baby because my general philosophy is one needs convincing evidence to justify any intervention (in pregnancy, birth, and life in general), and I'm just not convinced -- but I'm not convinced in either direction. It does feel absolutely overwhelming. Frankly, I feel like I just don't have the time and energy to research the subject fully (I see people on here, as a previous poster mentioned, spending almost all their time investigating the issue, and I just have too much else to do!), and try to distill truth from all the noise. I feel OK with our decision to rely on the default of not vaccinating, and I would encourage anyone to look into the issue at least enough to know to question all the pro-vaccine propaganda, but I can't say I know this is The Right Choice.
Mostly I hate all the fear mongering on both sides of the issue. I am frustrated that the $$$ stands in the way of evidence.
This is how I feel too.

[mamamia10]

My husband and I decided not to vax our dd before her birth. I have always been very leary of what I put into my own body and I knew I needed to protect dd from these things as well. She's now an extremely healthy two yo who's been to our family doc exactly once at three months (mostly for the benefit of my MIL :lol ).

ditto here. Vax does not sit right with myself or dh.
we went once to the ped (at 9mo) hust so he could count her fat rolls

[leomom]

I vaccinated dd#1 on schedule through 9 months just b/c I didn't even know there was an option or choice. I just blindly went to the well baby visits and did as I was told.

DD#2 has had no shots, other than the Vit K shot in the hospital.

I feel very overwhelmed and scared either way, but the bottom line for me is that I cannot inject known toxins into my little ones. I believe there really must be a better way and I have faith that things will change. So, I'm holding out and in the meantime I have a philosophical exemption for schools- which is very easy to get for those of you who feel overwhelmed by that.

[Kiddoson]

not every state has philisophical exemptions. all have religous though

[leomom]

not every state has philisophical exemptions. all have religous though

Yes, sorry, I didn't mean the philosophical part was easy, I meant getting any type of exemption is relatively easy.

[frontierpsych]

not every state has philisophical exemptions. all have religous though

Except I believe WV and MS. Last I heard they do not offer exemptions.

[Fyrestorm]

It's interesting what puts up the red flags isn't it? For me, it was the Chicken Pox vaccine.

Me too...long before I ever considered having children (I was pretty late to the baby game) My BFF had teens when it came out and they wanted to give it to them...they had already both had CP. So on top of the vaccine itself even existing:eyesroll, they wanted to give it to children who had already had cp...made me go hmmmmm.

My mother was a public health nurse and was at the time in charge of well babies for our city. She got grants for vaccination programs etc...so I was coming from a very pro vax, pro medicine place. I first had to wrap my head around my mother being wrong!

Unfortunately, she passed before I decided to attempt child rearing, but part of me thinks I was waiting for her not to be around...I can't imagine what it would have been like to parent around her, let alone HB, no CIO, co-sleep, delay solids, no circ, extended BF and everything else that went against EVERYTHING she believed in. I think the vax issue would have destroyed our relationship if she were still here. (the no circ thing would have put her in the hospital with a stroke if I had had a boy!)

[alegna]

Except I believe WV and MS. Last I heard they do not offer exemptions.

Those two only have medical exemptions which are hard to get and close to useless.

-Angela

[cjanelles]

I vaccinated my oldest kids (now 15 and 11) because it never occurred to me not to. I was 18 when my son was born and no one ever suggested that I consider not vaccinating or researching more closely before I let them pump my kids up with who knows what...

It frustrates me still. I live in a moderately-sized southern town and there are practically NO pediatricians offices that support NFL, no- or selective-vaxing, AP, or anything that is really important to me now with my 3rd child, my 13 mo DD2.

I've just bought Aviva Jill Romm's "Vaccinations: A thoughtful parents guide" based on the recommendations on the Vax board here at the MDC and although I'm only 1/4 of the way through, I'm already simply astonished at what I'm reading. At the things no one ever bothered to tell us. Stuff that should be common knowledge if parents are going to be compelled by the government to vax their kids...

It bothers me, big.

And yet almost everyone I know thinks I'm crazy to consider selective/no vax. Even when I share resources and concerns with them...they still think I'm just a conspiracy theorist nut or something.

It's so frustrating.

[MujerMamaMismo]

I'm 18 weeks pregnant with our first babe. I've been an MDC member since long before ttc and I feel like I've been reading and researching about everything on the parenting continuum for years...except for vaccinations because it's simply overwhelming. Every week, DP and I look at each other and say 'we HAVE to start researching vax, this week!'

I know that we'll be delayed and selective at the very least but with very little research, my gut says not to vax at all though I don't think DP is on the same page.

I hope that this workshop is a nice, gentle intro into the scary world of vax.

[Amys1st]

Welcome and happy to particpate. I have a dd Liz who is 6years old in public school and I have my 2 yr old dd, MAggie, a former micro preemie now a healthy 2 yr old.

With both we do choose to vax, but delayed and selected here and there. Maggie was 15/16 weeks premature and with her, we had decided to delay even longer than w Liz. Well then she was born early. I remember them shoving this sign here and there medical waivor under my nose and going thru the long list. It came to vax, they do not vax preemies (even 1 lb 12 oz ones like my MAggie) by "corrected" age, but actauly age since out of the womb. So she would have been 29 weeks gestanial and giving her 4 big honker shots by the AAP standards. I would not sign the vax ok form and I flat out told the fellow, when it comes time to vax, we would discuss it then. She seemed impressed by my confidence and way of saying- lets keep this kid alive and get to that stage first before we start shooting her up with all this stuff.

She received 7 blood transfusions during her hospital stay (this is pretty standard with micro preemies) so I agreed at age 8 weeks to give the Heb shot but I then spaced those out as well. When it came time to vax, I said I would follow up w my ped ( a former attending in that nicu and well respected) and she could vax her. I also knew I would be seeing the ped weekly for several months and we could get them done within those time frames. MY ped is also a pro vax but pro delay and selective vax.

I also had to get a few shots for Liz to get ready for kindergarden. My ped said- we could do them over time since I brought MAggie in for follow up all the time.

I think at age 2 1/2 she has had most, but I dont think she had the MMR. We would do one here and then one there and it seemed fine. The idea of giving all those at once just dosent jive (but then again, thats why I am at MDC!) and I always tell those who are pro all the vaxes at once- the aap dosent say require, it says schedule and its recommended which is a loose term in my book.

[uptowngirl]

I first had red flags about vaccinations when I began reading "A Shot In the Dark" by Barbara Loe Fisher. I was so moved by her book that I began researching vaccinations in general---something I had never questioned. I was pregnant with my first and it was 2002---the year that thimerosal was scheduled to be taken out of production (but not pulled from the shelves). There was no credible support in mainstream medicine (like we have Dr. Sears now), to help me with the doctors----but I had already decided on my own "delayed vaccine schedule." There would be no birth dose of HepB; no thimerosal, no more than 2 shots at a time; no live vaccines until age 3. I didn't start vaccines until he was 3 months old. I broke up the MMR. I have followed the same course with my dd. I want them vaccinated, but I want it done on my terms, with careful research and plenty of time between shots. It's an overwhelming, almost full time job to keep up with this process and the exemption issues, but to me---there was no battle more worth it than this one. Now my biggest fight is with the Catholic school, as they will not allow religious exemptions--and I want to be able to opt out of a vaccine if I want to. I guess that's material for another thread.

[changingseasons]

I feel totally overwhelmed by the vax debate and decision. I don't feel like I have the time, energy, and knowledge to make a truly informed choice. I am scared of the vaxes but also the diseases for the most part. With my toddler, I was critical of the vaxes but ultimately got convinced by my doc to do most of them. We skipped Hep B, Pox, and MMR and I think she never finished Hib. Now I am revisiting the issue with my new babe and really wishing I had more time to read. I read Stephanie Cave and started the Sears Vax book but I'd like to read more really anti vax stuff. Mostly I hate all the fear mongering on both sides of the issue. I am frustrated that the $$$ stands in the way of evidence.

It does feel absolutely overwhelming. Frankly, I feel like I just don't have the time and energy to research the subject fully (I see people on here, as a previous poster mentioned, spending almost all their time investigating the issue, and I just have too much else to do!), and try to distill truth from all the noise.

I feel the same way- I don't feel justified making a decision either way until I have all the facts, and I just don't have the time to do the kind of research that I need to. So I too am going with the default of no vax.

When DD was born, I was already somewhat anti-vax, but DP was somewhat pro-vax... so since we hadn't fully made up our minds, we gave in to the pressure of the ped and allowed one round of shots. :( That was when DD was 2 months, and that very day was the beginning of her severe food allergies... I am absolutely certain that they were triggered by the vaccines- they just overloaded her immune system, and her body started rejecting foods (through my BM). I am still, 7 months later, struggling with her food reactions, and my diet is now down to less than 10 foods. I kick myself every day for allowing her to get the one round of shots.

I've just bought Aviva Jill Romm's "Vaccinations: A thoughtful parents guide" based on the recommendations on the Vax board here at the MDC and although I'm only 1/4 of the way through, I'm already simply astonished at what I'm reading. At the things no one ever bothered to tell us. Stuff that should be common knowledge if parents are going to be compelled by the government to vax their kids...

I just checked that book out from my library for like the 3rd time... I'm hoping that this time I can at least start reading it before it's due. :D

[berkeleyp]

I'm curious what other books people have used to help make their decisions. A lot of them are outdated. Since they just took the mercury out in 2002, doesn't that make any book written prior somewhat useless?

Here is what I found that were written since 2002:


The Vaccine Book: Making the Right Decision for Your Child (Sears Parenting Library) by Robert Sears (Paperback - Oct 22, 2007)

Vaccine: The Controversial Story of Medicine's Greatest Lifesaver by Arthur Allen

Vaccine Safety Manual for Concerned Families and Health Practitioners: Guide to Immunization Risks and Protection by Neil Z. Miller and Russell, M.D. Blaylock (Paperback - April 10, 2008)

Do Vaccines Cause That?! A Guide for Evaluating Vaccine Safety Concerns by Martin G. Myers and Diego Pineda (Paperback - Jun 16, 2008)

RAISING A VACCINE FREE CHILD by WENDY LYDALL (Paperback - Feb 4, 2005)

Vaccines: Are They Really Safe and Effective by Neil Z. Miller (Paperback - Jan 1, 2008)

Has anyone read any of these besides the Sears?

[uptowngirl]

"Autism --a natural medicine guide" by Stephanie Marohn is excellent (athough the title would not seem like a vaccine guide; it's an environmental guide in general); "What your doctor may not tell you about childhood vaccinations" by Stephanie Cave, is outstanding. Also, "Children with Starving Brains" by Jaqueline McCandless, deals with the MMR and leaky gut issue. And if you're up for it, read "Evidence of Harm" by David Kirby. These people are pioneers in books about vaccinations--and the effects on the body. McCandless is more "scientific" in her writing, but Stephanie Cave is VERY readable. Kirby's book is mostly about the CDC/FDA/Drug Companies and the alleged "cover-up" of the downside of vaccination in the US.

[lkburns]

This is my first post on MDC - I've been put off because I don't know what ds and all that stuff means (where is the dictionary for this site?) but I want to be involved in the vacc. discussion so here goes. I read like crazy when our daughter was born but now am just busy and stopped taking her to her "routine" check-ups after being harrassed again at her 15 mo. check-up - I had heard this doc was so great - supportive of alternative vacc. schedules - but since my "alternative" was to do none and take the time instead to try to pick her brain and talk about it - well - it just wore me out. I lie about it to my family because they are all medical and far right and my daughter's dad has backed off and left it at . .if something happens . .it is on my shoulders . . . so some days when it strikes me she is perfectly full of joy and health and beauty - maybe today is the day I should go make her sick and get her some shots . . my dream was to find a book that said here are your options 1) no vacc. 2) plan A 3) plan B 4) plan C 5) follow normal medical protocol . . . but I never found it and haven't found a doc to work with me on it . .it seems either you do all or nothing or you come up with your own plan and that feels so complex. So . . now we do nothing and hope that we don't get exposed to polio (because it is in the Amish population a few hours away in Western WI) or to measles (because it is in Milwaukee, a few hours in the other direction) . . .etc. . . we continue to breast feed (tonight at my dad's . .my stepmom said . .do you think you're cute? breastfeeding her when she is 21 months old? it is ridiculous. I repeated my mantra - we are following the WHO's recommendation of breastfeeding 'til age 2 and then letting her self-wean after that . . . anyways - tired of crap from my family and glad to hear ideas from others about this. Thanks!

[Arwyn]

Everything you need to know about MDC! (http://www.mothering.com/discussions/showthread.php?t=520255) (Here are the abbreviations (http://www.mothering.com/discussions/showthread.php?t=522590))

[gorgorita]

We don't vax. It's my first child and I am still researching but my gut telling me to not vax. It's hard to find a ped, to think about exemption, daycare, school. It's hard to see how other people react when they learn you don't vax and they don't even want to research it. It's hard to lie when asked by other parents and then worry so your kid doesn't get the desease from their just vaxed kids. But in the end, it feels right.
Knowing what I now know, it's harder to think of injecting my baby with chemicals than facing all the difficulties associated with non-vaxing.
I am grateful for finding MDC at the right moment in my life. Thanks to all the support from here, my baby didn't get a single shot.

[alegna]

fSo . . now we do nothing and hope that we don't get exposed to polio (because it is in the Amish population a few hours away in Western WI)

There is no polio circulating in the US. What you're probably thinking about is a few years back a section of the Amish population was found to have been exposed to the VAX strain of polio (the strain that is in the old OPV vaccine- a live vaccine)

But there were not any clinical cases of polio.

-Angela

[Krisis]

When the NICU called to ask our permission to give Toby the Hep B vax, I didn't even think about it - I just said yes. I got there and was scrubbing in as they vaxed him and his screams just about killed me. Likewise when they gave him his 2 mo. vaccinations. After that, I started researching and reading up on delaying.

I did want to delay in the first place, but my pediatrician told me horror stories and freaked out, so I went with the 2 month vaccines. Toby has his 4 month checkup this week and he will not be getting ANY more until he is at least 3, and no chicken pox, adn the MMR will be spaced out.

I'm not done researching, but just the stuff they put in those vaccines scares me.

[Arwyn]

Knowing what I now know, it's harder to think of injecting my baby with chemicals than facing all the difficulties associated with non-vaxing.

So what do we consider the difficulties associated with not-vaccinating (or going with a selective/delayed schedule)? (I ask because I'm trying to think through this.) There's dealing with friends and family; dealing with medical professionals; the risks of the diseases. What else?

Oh, here's one: we have chicken pox in my neighbourhood, and I just realized that "exposing child to chicken pox" is not some theoretical future proposition, but something I have to contemplate right now. Is he old enough? Can I really live with making my child sick? Is it better to avoid the diseases, or try to be exposed? Or some of each (and which is which?)? Even if I decide I don't really need to know allllllllll the reasons to not vaccinate (which sounds like a full time job!), there's still stuff I need to think about.

[DaytonsMom]

I didn't find MDC till ds was probably 4 or 5 months old. I found mothering through my LLL when i asked her about vaxing. she gave me a back article about vaxing. then i came on line and found out more. it seemed so overwhelming at first!! i remember not even knowing where to start! Ds had his first round of shots and it was prety bad. he cried and cried and was so fussy! It was hard for a long time knowing that i had done it without researchign first. now i know that any decision has to be fully researched! not just because my dr. or society says so. We have stopped going to well baby visits because of being harrassed by the docs! It's just not worth it to me! I hope that we are able to expose him to things like chicken pox so he can get natural immunity for life!!! i think i read something about it being bad to be exposed to chicken pox while you are pregnant, does anyone know...is this true? can't remember where i read or heard it or if i just dreamed it!lol which sometimes happens! :nut


Anyway, someone said on a thread once that you'll jsut know when you finally come to the decision that's right for your family! and everytime i got scared and thought of vaxing i would think about actually taking him to the dr and letting them inject him with all that horrible stuff and i just couldn't even go there in my mind! I knew i couldn't do it IRL!! And reading all the stories on line of people who's child had had a reaction and people IRl, it was just way too much for me! So best of luck to you mammas as you deal with this very difficult and personal decision.

[brightonwoman]

I had a hard time at first trying to sort out all the info I was hearing...on one side it was "vaxes are toxic and will give your kid autism" and on the other side it was "you don't want your baby to die from polio" and it was just hard to figure out where the SCIENCE was in the midst of all the emotion, you know?
I finally ended up deciding to go to the most scientific sources I could, which was to the CDC website and the manufacturers inserts for the vaccines themselves. Granted the CDC wants us to vax, but they also have the official results of the official tests... Anyway, as I complied information, I wrote it up on my blog. Just the process of writing it up vax by vax was enough to help me determine that there were some vaxes we did NOT want, and some that we DO. We are delayed/selective around here.
In any case, if you'd like to see my collected research (http://brightonwoman.blogspot.com/search/label/vaccination)(more or less just the research, not conclusions--I prefer to let people find those on their own) feel free to visit!

[amnesiac]

So what do we consider the difficulties associated with not-vaccinating (or going with a selective/delayed schedule)? (I ask because I'm trying to think through this.) There's dealing with friends and family; dealing with medical professionals; the risks of the diseases. What else?

There's also the issue of dealing with things like daycare, school, summer camp, etc. I know that causes a lot of us anxiety. And it's not always as simple as knowing about legal exemptions, it's feeling comfortable interacting with those people/agencies in a positive way.

Something else I think is hard is feeling good about the idea that there is not one right answer. We all have so many varied situations and perspectives that we just won't always share the same conclusions when it comes to our vaxing situations. In a way that makes it even harder to feel confident in our choices. That's why I'm grateful we have opportunities like this to just talk & support each other through the process.

[PassionateWriter]

the misinformation is what upsets me the most. most dr's tell patients that the mercury has all been removed, but thats not the case. there are still trace amounts and depending on how many vax a child gets in a day, teh content could still be substantial (not that i believe any amount is good).

i came to MDC a few years ago and started reading about vaccines. My first 2 were fully vaccinated and we had no problems (that I know of). After reading the vax forum here and several books (I think i have about 20 books on the subject) I decided we aren't going to vax for anything. My 2.5 year old is the healthiest child I've had thus far and thus far he has been completely medicine free. I'm at a point now where I feel completely comfortable with not vax him and soon to be baby.

[Materfamilias]

What I'd love to see is everyone's reason for not/delayed/selective vaxing. What was the bottom line for you?
I've done some reading on it, but it is extraordinarily complex and there are very strong opinions on all sides (often not very well grounded on research, which makes me nervous).

[GuppysMom]

I feel more confident about caring for (with the help of modern medicine IF necessary) a baby or child with a VPD than caring for a child with autism or some other disease that I may have helped cause by saying yes to a vaccine.

We will probably do some vaccines in the future. But for now we will default to no vax unless I'm convinced that risk of the vaccine outweighs the risk of the disease -- for our family, with our genes, for our lifestyle, our priorities, our fears, etc.

[alegna]

What I'd love to see is everyone's reason for not/delayed/selective vaxing. What was the bottom line for you?
I've done some reading on it, but it is extraordinarily complex and there are very strong opinions on all sides (often not very well grounded on research, which makes me nervous).

The bottom line for me was a risk/benefit analysis for each vaccine and disease. I couldn't find any vaccines that I felt were worth the risk.

-Angela

[Fyrestorm]

What was the bottom line for you?


None of the VADs worried me as much as the possible damage that vaccines can do.

1. No vaccine, chance of having to deal with a treatable VAD

2. Vaccines, chance of dealing with a non treatable and unacknowledged reaction +the chance of dealing with the VAD as well.

Easy choice for me!

[uptowngirl]

My bottom line was that I felt in most cases, the possible harm by the vaccine ingredients outweighed the possibility of contracting the disease (or being harmed by it). I felt the schedule and number of vaccines was ridiculous, weighed against the disease risk. For example, what average 2 month old, home with mom, is at risk for Hep B, 2 types of meningitis, polio, diptheria, tetanus, pertussis, and rotovirus? I mean ok---I get the pertussis concern and perhaps the prevnar, within the first 6 months. But unless you dumped the baby on the streets of some very poor third world village, how is s/he going to even remotely need to be protected against EVERYTHING all at once? Especially when the risk of that amount of aluminum/mercury has been proven to cause harm? It's simple math.

My bottom line with the flu shot is that I know what the flu is like. I don't know what the thimerosal will do. the flu is a possibility. The thimerosal is a given. Again, the math. Something that it seems a lot of people with a medical degree can't do. Sorry to sound snarky. My hair just stands up on the back of my neck when I talk about this.:p

[MotherWren]

Bottom Line;

Like I told our *most recent* pediatrician, I remain unconvinced that the benefits outweigh the risks. Period.
Given my dd's severe food allergies, I shudder to think what could have happened to her had I not listened to my instincts.
I don't even research that much anymore because I just don't plan on anyone getting shots. But its upsetting that we are SO far outside the norms of society on this one. I don't find it fun or easy to go against the grain with my choices.
I do however think that there may be an awakening of sorts going on, with Jenny Mccarthy (and others like her) questioning the status quo. I think (I hope) that more people will start to realize thats its ok, even necessary to think for themselves. It's just such a shame that the medical profession does not support free thinking. THAT is a huge problem IMO, the holier than thou "my way or the highway" attitude of doctors. The problem extends far beyond the vax issue although thats a big one (and on topic of this discussion :lol) especially given the enormous amount of recommeded shots these days. Yikes.

[Tinker]

Funny I should run across this today. Just yesterday a friend e-mailed me to ask about our vax story. I'll just copy and paste what I told her. And this actually a condensed version of our story . As we get further from this point in our lives, the details get a fuzzy. As well as all the research I did. We have made our choice, so it's just not something I think about everyday any more, so forgive the vagueness of some of it.

Don't do them!!!!! At the very least delay them til you can do all the research. You want to be 110% sure that you are comfortable with the risks and side effects versus any possible benefits. You can always do them later, but you can't undo them once they've been done.

If I had it to do all over again, neither of my girls would have gotten any vaxes.
I'll try to keep this as brief as possible, but it is kind of a long story so bear with me.

When Katie was born she was a happy content comfortable baby. When we brought her home that changed. She puked constantly, and I don't mean spit up I mean puke. But since Samantha was the same way, I never thought too much of it. She also always had a stuffy nose and but other then that she seemed ok. Then It was time to get shots, after that Katie did not sleep and she cried inconsolably and if possible the puking got worse. After about a month of so she seemed to be getting better. Then of course it was time to get more shots. And it went on this way for months. I started getting really concerned when she wasn't hitting ANY milestones. She didn't use her hands much and she NEVER lifted her arms over her head by herself. When we did to dress her or play with her, she screamed like she was in pain. Her doctor said she was just grouchy and had a very small nose, that's why she screamed and was stuffy all the time. And she was sick constantly. The puking of course was because if reflux and we got a RX for that. (If you could hear my voice right now it would be dripping with sarcasm and disgust!) Her last shots were at 8 months, almost 9 months. At that point she could sit and that's it. She couldn't get to a sitting position by herself nor could she get from a sitting position to laying down. And when I say she could sit and that's it I mean, she couldn't even roll over! Katie didn't roll over on her own till she was 10 months!
A friend started talking to be about vaccines and I started researching them at that point And that's when we stopped vaccinating. Everything people were saying about harmful vax side effects fit Katie perfectly. But to further prove to us that that was her problem, within a month of her last vaxes she started to improve. She stopped puking, just stopped! Her nose got unstuffed for the first time in her whole life. She started talking a little and stopped screaming all the time. She played and raised her arms and moved her body like she had never willingly done before. Just a couple of weeks before her first b-day she started to crawl and roll. At 15 and a half months old sh started walking. And shortly after that she started to eat table food. Her stomach hadn't been able to handle it so she had been exclusively breastfed up until then.

Now she is caught up to and has even past some of the other kids her age. The only time her nose is stuffy is when she is sick and she is rarely sick. She is a completely different child. Paul and I talk all the time about what a difference it is and how amazing the transformation in her. I mean I honestly didn't think she would ever walk and now she runs. And it all coincides with us stopping the vaxes. And now that I know what vaxes can do to a baby and the side effects and stuff, I have a whole new insight as to why Samantha was a difficult baby. Her doc said she just had colic, for a year.

And then of course when you look at the vaccine ingredients it's unbelievable that "they" think it's a good think to pump that crap into our babies bodies.

MDC is a great place to get links about vaccines. I believe the site is called VAERS ( http://vaers.hhs.gov/ ) that's a really good place to start. This is where people report adverse vaccine reaction, including deaths.

And also selectively vaxing is an option. I mean there are some that when you think about it why are they required for infants and children. Like Hep B. How many kids and babies do you know have unprotected sex or are IV drug users? There's just not much chance they are even going to get that, so why put them at risk with the vax?

[tanya1976]

I vax. I feel it works for my family. That's that.

[Emmy'sMom]

While I was pregnant I read vaccination books and researched here on MDC. It wasn't until becoming pregnant and feeling a need to look into vaccinations that I realized my immune disease (I have Rheumatoid Arthritis) might have been caused from an MMR booster I received in college (developed RA months after receiving the shot). Peggy O'Mara's book states there is a link bewtween the MMR and RA in adults. I had no idea. That was the bottom line for me. No way do I want what happened to me to happen to my daughter. I began thinking more about my experiences with vaxes--the only time I have ever had the flu was the year I (for some reason :eyesroll) decided to get the flu shot. My incredibly healthy dog got bordetella (kennel cough) after receiving the vaccine two months before. I then began thinking about the kids I new who were vaxed vs those not vaxed. I don't know if this is true in all cases but the un-vaxed lo I know (including my 1 yo) rarely if ever get sick. The majority of the kids I know are vaxed and are frequently sick. I feel that vaccines impair one's immune system.

I worried about my decision to not vax for a while, especially while dd was really young and it was winter and there were a few reported cases of whooping cough in the area. But now I see how strong and healthy she is and I rarely think about it any more. And then I think about how I don't get the flu and it is so prevelent; then why worry about MMR, polio, tetanus, whooping cough, etc. when I rarely hear of anyone getting them???

One concern I have is sending my dd to preschool. I would like her to go to a private preschool in our community in a few years but I am not sure if a phil. exemption works for private preschools--anyone know??

[uptowngirl]

Whether or not you can get a philosophical exemption depends on your state law---and the school itself. A private school that accepts no public funds, can disallow you to utilize exemptions that are normally allowed in public schools.

[nerdymom]

I suppose I have something rare when it comes to this supject. I have the support of my mom. My mother, who was an LPN for an OB when I was born, who still firmly supports the medical model for birth (though natural medicine is good enough for everything else :eyesroll), who thinks that children shouldn't be breastfed for more than 10-12 months, supports no vax. This astounded me when I found out (a couple months ago no less)!

Apparently, I had all my vacinations. I'm the eldest. The next child had most of hers. The next had less than half. The youngest hasn't had any. And guess what? My youngest sister is JUST AS HEALTHY, IF NOT MORE HEALTHY, than I am.

After the research I did, and then speaking with my mother and learning why she chose not to vax, I made my decision. I chose not to vax, and I am very comfortable with this choice.

I feel totally overwhelmed by the vax debate and decision. I don't feel like I have the time, energy, and knowledge to make a truly informed choice. I am scared of the vaxes but also the diseases for the most part.

:Hug that's all. Just :Hug

[mean_jeannie]

When ds went in for his 9 mo well baby visit he received 4 vaccines. I thought, 'that is waaay to much.' So I confronted my pedi who went completely defensive on me. I just decided ds was too little to be exposed to so much. I got the religious exemption so I wouldn't be under pressure to decide until I was ready and ds was older.

[jennmk13]

We had our first baby in March and will NOT be Vaxing. I read several books on weather to vax or not and still felt very confused. Ironically it was after reading the Dr. Sears book that I finally felt conviction in my choice not to vax. I don’t agree with everything that he has to say in his book, but for me the descriptions of the diseases were very clear. In finally understanding the diseases I was able to decide that I preferred the disease over the vax.

[cjanelles]

I realized my immune disease (I have Rheumatoid Arthritis) might have been caused from an MMR booster I received in college (developed RA months after receiving the shot). Peggy O'Mara's book states there is a link bewtween the MMR and RA in adults. I had no idea.

Private schools do not have to comply with any exemptions, from what I've read.

I just wanted to add that I had no idea that there was a link between vaccines and Crohn's Disease until I began researching, either...unfortunately, my oldest daughter (11) has Crohn's. It is because of her illness that I was so determined to breastfeed my baby daughter and now I'm finding out that I could be exposing her to even more risks by vaxing...

It just troubles me so deeply. I feel like we have this mountain of resistance ahead of us as parents who don't just blindly follow along with the government's rules and it seems almost insurmountable.

[uptowngirl]

Really, it seems insurmountable, but it isn't. Reading a few choice books (or even articles) will help a lot. I wouldn't want anyone to feel that it's too much to consider---so they just trust the powers that be. If you do nothing else, then just space out the vaccines. there are other problems that can cause autoimmune disorders, so just consider vaccine research as one parental responsibility--among the many we have some control over. You can't help what you don't know...so I wouldn't want any mother to feel guilty for her child's condition--even if she could have made different choices. We all do the best we can do.

[Writerbird]

I was concerned about the number of antigens my child would be exposed to if I followed the "traditional" schedule, given that the schedule is a tradition of all of ten years' standing. My pediatrician told me that the number of antigens thought necessary to stimulate the proper response has actually dropped significantly, and that the real concern was the other ingredients. For this reason she did not recommend breaking up the combo shots. That made sense to me and fitted in with my own research and (admittedly poor) understanding of microbiology.

Basically, I decided yes to Hep, Polio, and DTaP. I decided no to chicken pox, flu, and rotavirus, after my reading on the risks versus the rewards. The rest I'll decide on as I go. My pediatrician is not terribly crunchy, but she is fully supportive - hell, she's the one that told me the rotavirus shot was purely a moneymaker!

I wanted a natural birth because the science supported it as the best thing for my baby, so having the science in hand for the shots is even more important to me. It's unfortunate that the drive for corporate profits have obscured the science behind vaccines, but it's still there. I find it a lot easier to just research shot by shot rather than trying to answer the vaccine question all at once.

Personal footnote on HepB - We declined the Hep vaccine at birth, because I hadn't had the chance to research it yet, and I figured I could keep him away from those dirty infant hookers long enough to make an informed decision.

However, I went ahead and authorized it at his two month visit - the reason is is that the CDC reports that 30% of the people with Hep B acquired it in childhood. Presumably before sexual activity or tattoo acquisition! The final straw for me was when a good friend of mine got extremely sick from Hep B. He has no tattoos, does not do drugs, and has been faithful to his wife since he married her in 2002. He wasn't exactly a lady killer before that. Given what he knows now, he thinks he may have gotten it as a child - perhaps after a hospital stay, perhaps after a nasty fight with another kid, the kind where everyone is bleeding on everyone else.

It's a very serious infection that has no cure, causes serious pain, and more. I decided it was worth it to vaccinate.

[Katfka]

None of the VADs worried me as much as the possible damage that vaccines can do.

1. No vaccine, chance of having to deal with a treatable VAD

2. Vaccines, chance of dealing with a non treatable and unacknowledged reaction +the chance of dealing with the VAD as well.

Easy choice for me!

This was about it for me as well.
Also, both my brother and I had damaging vaccine reactions, and my gut instinct told me immediately to Not Do it.

DS1 is 3, and has a rockin immune system. His 'colds' last a day or two, and he's only had a handful of visible ones.

I feel very solid in my decision not to vaccinate my children.
I managed to survive with only 6 total vaccines(inc boosters.) Thats the bottom line for me.

I also feel like we are doing quite a disservice to our following generations to not have natural immunity to many VPDs.

We're trading acute illnesses for chronic illness, and I'm not buying what our government is selling.

[~lioneyes~]

There is no polio circulating in the US. What you're probably thinking about is a few years back a section of the Amish population was found to have been exposed to the VAX strain of polio (the strain that is in the old OPV vaccine- a live vaccine)

But there were not any clinical cases of polio.

-Angela

Oh I would love a link to some info on this that my mother would consider legitimate. She is constantly badgering me about polio, because of the polio outbreak when she was younger.

This is a great discussion, and I'm finding out that it's kinda normal that I feel lost on what to do at this point. My dd is 2 1/2, and it's time that I have to face the question of whether or not to continue to keep her vax free.

I guess I just think there are a lot of scare tactics that are used on both sides of the fence. I just want to find the "magic" book that gives me the truth (though I know it's not out there), and is not too far on one side or the other. That way I will know that I am making my own decisions, not just being swayed by literature.

I did browse through "Vaccinations: A thoughtful parents guide" once, and did like what I saw. I think I may try to borrow it again.

[alegna]

Oh I would love a link to some info on this that my mother would consider legitimate. She is constantly badgering me about polio, because of the polio outbreak when she was younger.


Try searching here - there was a lot of discussion when this was news. Sorry- I don't have enough computer time to track it down... :innocent

-Angela

[Fyrestorm]

Oh I would love a link to some info on this that my mother would consider legitimate. She is constantly badgering me about polio, because of the polio outbreak when she was younger.



Here is one I happen to have saved:

http://www.vaccineinfo.net/news/Poliononoutbreak_Amish.shtml

[boigrrrlwonder]

Well, this was supposed to be my Welcome! post, but I'm a little late. :lol Anyway, welcome, and thanks for the great discussion so far. :D



This is me. :nod We haven't vaccinated Naked Baby because my general philosophy is one needs convincing evidence to justify any intervention (in pregnancy, birth, and life in general), and I'm just not convinced -- but I'm not convinced in either direction.

If I lived in a social vacuum, I'd agree with this, but I always worry about charges of medical neglect because I don't vaccinate - so I feel like my decision not to vax should be more informed.

That said, we aren't vaxing. I really struggle with whether to give DTap - in fact the only shot she's ever had was a DTaP shot, but for the time being, I'm not vaxing.

[lachingona1]

I have done sooooo much research in the last 7 years. I have lots of reasons as to why I don't vaccinate. Some being...

~the ingredients
~the artificial immunity vs natural immunity factor
~vaccines don't have to be proven safe or effective to added to the list of mandated shots
~I don't trust our government or doctors

Natural vs artificial immunity

Natural immunity only happens after recovering from the actual disease. With the actual disease, the organism has to pass through many of the body's natural immune defense systems in the nose, throat, lungs before it ever gets as far as the bloodstream. The organism triggers many unknown biological events before it ever reaches the bloodstream.

Vaccination by direct injection makes the unproven assumption that the mere artificial stimulation of antibody production by the sudden presence of a foreign agent in the blood is the whole story of immunity. Obviously that isn't true, the need for booster shots proves that.

A scientist from Havard's Medical School explained that the way vaccines are evolved is to make them weaker and weaker to the point where they don't produce any immediate inflammatory response. The problem is, in this form, the altered virus can penetrate deeper into our tissues than would naturally have been possible. They become latent there for years, or for a very short time, as hidden allergens, waiting like a slow virus. Then when something triggers them into action, even years later, the stowaway microorganisms can manifest themselves in any location or system of the body, causing major dysfunction, degenerative diseases, or even death. But not from the original disease.

That way, no one can prove the vaccine was the cause of death.

Infants are not born with a blood brain barrier. It isn't complete until maturity. So things like mercury, formaldehyde, aluminum are allowed access to the brain. The toxins have two main effects: Kill brain cells and prevent interconnections between brain cells from forming. Like the ability to learn.

Certain areas of the brain, like the ones that allow a baby to walk or speak or to learn are damaged, the problem may go unnoticed for years. Later on when the impairment is noticed, doctors will be running around looking for some recent event to blame it on. Too late, it's already over.


Real protection has to begin with information- sound information, not propaganda. Learn about the ingredients, the culture media, the testing involved, the politics and economics involved, the actual anatomy and physiology of infants.
The info must not only come from those making their living selling vaccines. Human health does not come form a drug or vaccine. A healthy baby needs no outside assistance, no tampering with the blood. The mysteries of health lie within the body, not within medical texts.

Some facts:

`Infectious diseases were over 90% resolved by the time vaccines came onto the market

`Hep B vax was outlawed in France after 15,000 citizens filed a class action suit against the government.

`In 2001 the world wide vaccine market size was 3.6 billion and is growing 12% each year. FOLLOW THE MONEY

`Over 40 million injections are given per day, over 12 billion a year.

`A very high percentage of doctors don't vax their children. I will have to finds the source (I have it somewhere) and get the actual percentage. It's astonishing!

`Many think vaccines are being used for population control

I could go on and on and on but that is enough for now!

[fotomama]

I have done sooooo much research in the last 7 years. I have lots of reasons as to why I don't vaccinate. Some being...

~the ingredients
~the artificial immunity vs natural immunity factor
~vaccines don't have to be proven safe or effective to added to the list of mandated shots
~I don't trust our government or doctors



:yeah:


Great post laching! ITA. :thumb

[Bellabaz]

This issue is still overwhelming for me. I was never vaxed. If you think there is pressure today, try doing it 27 years ago. I had teachers in elementary school call me a liar when I told them I never had a shot. Anyway, due to my upbringing in a no vaxing, try natural remedies first type of home, I have always leaned toward not vaxing.

DP is from another country where they don't vax nearly as much (although it is increasing). He doesn't think that vaxes are bad, but he definitely doesn't understand why the US does so many. And for things like Chicken Pox?! SO we have reached a compromise. DD has only had Polio and DT (no p). We also delayed it. I am comfortable with this, although I continue to research and discuss it from time to time with him. If she gets to be 16 without having caught rubella we may give her the choice of getting that. But I think we are pretty much done. With furture kids, I would like to delay even longer, perhaps until 2 or 3 (or perhaps no vax at all).

I agree with the pp that the fear mongoring and $$ on both sides of the issue really gets in the way and in the end it is kids who suffer. This is maddening to me.

[Mosaic]

Our bottom line, honestly, is a work in progress. I suppose it comes down to a risk/benefit analysis, but we keep introducing more information into our analysis, so vaccination is not a choice we have made once but several, several times.

So far, we have delayed/selectively vaxed given: our DD's current and future risk of exposure to the disease, overall health (both short and long term), reactions to illness/vax/etc., natural immunities, research and testing on vaccines, different health organization recommendations and analysis of how they have changed over the years, ingredients in the vaccines, and even something as simple as how we "clicked" with the ped or nurse and how they answered our questions.

[wendyjoe]

I always thought that non-vaxers were crazy. Really, I hate to say it, but I did. Deep down I never really believed it was okay to innoculate everyone with everything you can call a "vaccine" though. I think I almost refused to look into the issue because I was afraid I'd change my mind and become one of the "crazy" people.

As a OB nurse, it never made sense to me why I was vaccinating newborns for Hep B. This it what is recommended, this is what the doctors want, but I never pushed anyone into doing it.

My twins were born at 29 weeks. When they were two months old and 6 whole pounds, the NICU asked my permission to vaccinate them and I said yes. They got Polio, Hib, Prevnar, and Hep B. It still gives me a little anxiety to think about how little they were and how many shots they got that day. They were vaccinated right on schedule their first year - including roto which had just come out again, and flu - neither of which I really wanted but for some reason I couldn't bring myself to say No. The 4 month shots were particularly hard on them and they both developed ezcema shortly after.

At the 12 month visit my doc offhandedly mentioned they'd be getting MMR and Varicella at the next visit. I hadn't realized that schools were starting to require Varicella. I thought, "No child of mine will ever get the chicken pox vaccination. That's just stupid." This really set me off. I delved into research, website after website, looking for answers. It's funny how it evolved. At first I just wanted to cut out Varicella. Then I wanted to delay everything, stretching it out as long as possible until they started school. I didn't realize how many docs will drop you as a patient if you don't vaccinate, but I must have known on some level because I wrote my doc a letter (that I never sent) asking her if she'd agree with the schedule I made for future children (that was based on S. Romm's book). I decided I didn't want any vaccine made with aborted fetal tissue. Then I decided I didn't want any vaccine made with thimerisol, mercury, or aluminum. I spent hours researching brands and ingredients.

The stuff I found just made me mad. I thought, "How in the world can the medical community just accept this garbage as fact." Medicine is never one size fits all, except when it comes to vaccines apparently.

Then I found MDC (because I was looking for information on a selective/delayed schedule). Wow. Slowly, every so slowly, I became a non-vaxer (I never made the 15-month appt. so they haven't recieved a shot since 12 months). I remember how funny it made me feel to say it out loud for the first time :lol. Sometimes I think I'm a little crazy - but then I think about how I used to help the nurses by holding my little girls' legs down so they could jab them (3 or 4 times) and a little bit of vomit comes into my mouth. I know I've made the right decision for my family. Even if the girls have done or would have done "fine" with the full schedule, maybe I'm saving a future child from a vaccine injury by learning about it now :shrug All I know is that it never felt right to give them those shots, but now I hardly ever worry about VPD's (and NOT because I'm counting on everyone else to be vaccinated to "protect" my children). And if I can stop a little vaccine misinformation from going around (i.e., I never tell my patients that the Hep B shot is required for school), I don't mind being one of the "crazies" :love

[MaterPrimaePuellae]

I started off thinking that anti-vax people were "crazy hippies." Then I realized/experienced the following:

1. Pharma has always frightened me-- there is just TOO much money involved, and the older I get, the more I am convinced that people are capable of ALL SORTS of evil in the pursuit of money. I have read varying reports about the amount of "profit" vaccines manufacturers are making... in any case, they certainly aren't acting out of beneficence, and the law suit protections that they now enjoy are a HUGE red flag for me. What, exactly, is their motivation to ensure optimal safety for our kids?

2. the chicken pox vaccine. My siblings and I had Cp, it was no big deal AT ALL, and it is a relief to me to know that I will never have to worry about CP exposure during pregnancy. I want my DD to have that same assurance, and because of the widespread vaccination program (which is all about money-- money for the vax makers, money for the companies not having to pay leave to mothers staying how with sick children), I worry that she will not have the opportunity of exposure to the wild virus. As others have mentioned, the increasing shingles problem is a concern of mine as well. For me, this is the best example of a vaccine CREATING a problem which really didn't exist before.

3. HepB vaccine. This one makes me SO angry. I was vaxed for hep b (not researched!) as a teen before a trip out of the country. My DD was at NO risk for this disease, yet she was vaxed in hospital as a newborn. As far as I can tell, this is a policy designed entirely to vax a captive audience before they reach adulthood, NOT to protect babies.

4. my former pediatrician (and so many others I have heard of), who (when asked about splitting the MMR, not even about avoiding it altogether!) acted as though I had asked the most foolish question imaginable. The history of medicine is full of errors-- the wandering womb, blood-letting, flower petals as protection against the plague, etc. Every patient has the right to question whether or not--perhaps--some of the vaccines might be ill-advised. For so many doctors to react so negatively to patients who are just trying to be discerning about their childrens' health is another BIG red flag for me. Vaccines may have eliminated polio and small pox; fewer children are dying from measles, perhaps because of the vaccines. Honestly, I basically do believe that these statements are true. But that DOES NOT mean that my baby should be vaccinated against an STD, or that ten year old needs to be vaccinated against HPV, or that chicken pox has suddenly become a deadly disease.

5. SO MANY mothers believe that their children were directly harmed by vaccination. It is really hard for me to discount this belief, and it makes me angry when doctors/pharma/the media play the "poor addled mama" card. I am a big believer in maternal instinct, even if it can't be "proven" (or if no one wants to prove it...:irked:), and I want to see a LOT more research before I allow my kids to be vaccinated.

So basically, I believe that it is my responsibility to 1) research each individual vaccine and decide accordingly. Sometimes I feel like I will need to earn a new degree in order to do so fully... :eyesroll and 2) demand (nicely, if possible :innocent) that I and other parents be treated as reasonable, intelligent people with the right to make educated decisions about our children's health. I have read some journal articles about how to convince troublesome parents (like me) to vaccinate, and they are very disturbing... as though WE are public health enemy #1. All of this coercion and fear-mongering is disrespectful. I fear the day when the government simply takes over and starts vaccinating without parental consent at all... :( Much of the "consent" these days is about as uninformed as possible, anyway.

Bethany

[MujerMamaMismo]

Encouraged by this thread we've started our vax research after much procrastination. DP told her sister that we were researching no/selective/delayed vaccinations. Her sis is a very mainstream nurse. The conversation progressed...
Sis: you can't do that
DP: why?
Sis: it's bad
DP: why?
Sis: On ER a boy died of mumps because he wasn't vaccinated.

I'm frustrated that I'm now in a position where I have to defend my intention to research/consider/contemplate with someone who has clearly not educated herself at all. We haven't even made any decisions yet and already we're being painted as neglectful

[amnesiac]

That brings up another difficult issue - how do you decide who you're comfortable sharing your vax choices with & if you meet resistance from anyone, how do you react?

[MujerMamaMismo]

This is all new to me and while I'm leaning toward no/selective vax, I'm happy to learn and to discuss and maybe, just maybe be swayed to the other side. I'm not prepared however, to have hollow arguments with people who aren't respectful about the fact that this is a serious issue about which I will do a thesis worth of research on. That's why I'm frustrated that DP told her sister.

I have told many friends/colleagues that we are researching and they have all been very respectful and mostly supportive...but then most of my friends/colleagues tend away from western medicine so I knew I was fairly safe.

I told my Mum who simply said 'I know you won't make any decisions about your babe without the most compelling of arguments.' ...which I take to mean, 'I don't altogether agree but I respect your right to do so.'

[MaterPrimaePuellae]

That brings up another difficult issue - how do you decide who you're comfortable sharing your vax choices with & if you meet resistance from anyone, how do you react?

When people ask, I always tell them I'm "selecting/delaying," though I have learned that it is generally not best to bring up the issue myself (I have a hard time reigning myself in...) When they ask, I usually explain my reasoning about the "obvious" ones-- hep b and chicken pox seem so needless for our lifestyle, etc, and then (maybe) say that my research has led to similar conclusions about other vaxes. I know that most people disagree with me, and I know that some of my friends are *proud* of their decision to do whatever the doctor tells them to do. Interestingly, my mom supports me, and when I (finally) told my mil, she was *relieved*! She had been worried (mostly because of reading about the autism concerns), but didn't want to intrude by raising concerns.

I do try to lend my Sears book to new/expecting moms whether they ask or not, because I know that *I* was not researching this issue enough when I was pregnant... I wish I had read more then, and the mainstream-ness of Sears seems comfortable to most people.

I expect that I'll lose friends over this before my child-rearing days are over, though. :( Emotions run so high on both sides of this issue....

[alegna]

That brings up another difficult issue - how do you decide who you're comfortable sharing your vax choices with & if you meet resistance from anyone, how do you react?

I play it by ear. *Most* people just think you do what you're supposed to - ie vax. But if anyone is actually interested and discussing it, I'm open about it. No reason not to IME. I'm educated, I made an educated choice, I know why I made it and I can explain it.

-Angela

[leomom]

I told my Mum who simply said 'I know you won't make any decisions about your babe without the most compelling of arguments.' ...which I take to mean, 'I don't altogether agree but I respect your right to do so.'

I would :lovelove:love for my mom to say that. She just rolls her eyes to me and calls me any time there's a threat of any kind of *perceived* outbreak

[3pink1blue]

I'm in the minority here... all my kids are vaccinated. I did a lot of research on it and decided that for our family, the risks of the diseases were worse than the risks of the vaccines.

We do not do the chicken pox or the hepatitis vaccines. Actually, I should say for my younger two - we DID give my oldest the CP vaccine. I have three daughters and as of now none of them will get the HPV vaccine. Maybe if more information comes out as they get older, we will visit it then, but as of now, no way.

Now all of that said - I have a child with Asperger's, a form of autism. I don't think my child's AS was caused by vaccines. Her first cousin has Rett Syndrome, which is a devastating, severe disorder on the spectrum. She was not vaccinated. I think my daughter has a genetic pre-disposition to being on the Spectrum.

I don't think any one thing causes autistic disorders. I think the people who have them are predisposed to them for some reason - maybe a gentic mutation? Who knows. But for some reason a lot of small factors add up to cause a big problem. Its very possible that vaccines have a role in it, but honestly I think its something newer. I think maybe epidurals, pitocin, or something else synthetic like that around the time of birth or even prenatally probably has a bigger effect on the child with autism than the vaccine. I think that because those are the thigns that have skyrocketed in the past ten to fifteen years, right alongside the autism diagnoses.

Anyway we weighed the pros and cons and with our family's lifestyle, we decided that the kids were more at risk of being injured from the disease itself than from the vaccine, statistically.

But I would never tell anyone to make the same choices we did. People don't have the same lifestyles and I certainly don't perceive unvaxed kids as a threat to mine. As parents we have a duty to thoroughly research what we put into our kids. I encourage every parent to research, research, research before making a choice, especially with something so important as your child's health.

[Arwyn]

Thanks for sharing that post, Rose. :) I would agree that vaccines don't "cause" autism (and there is definitely a large genetic component), although I have seen enough evidence to make me believe that either it can "trigger" it in the succeptable, or that vaccine injury/heavy metal toxicity can cause autism-like syndromes. But, the fact that my father appears to be an undiagnosed Asperger's type did encourage me in avoiding vaccinations.

[frontierpsych]

I will discuss my position with anyone who seems open to having an honest discussion. I don't fear-monger from my side (ie, you won't hear me saying that if you vax your kids will get autism or if you vax your kids will have allergies or eczema or seizures) so I am not open to discussion with anyone who will try to get me to fear not vaxing. I have had those conversations, and they lead nowhere. I am firm in my conviction, although still doing more research, mainly in an effort to successfully defend my position and explain it to others, as well as provide information to those who might be on the fence. I see it as a risk/benefit analysis. It is also important to learn about the history of vaccines, and the motives behind them.

[Twinklefae]

We do not vaccinate at all. When I was pregnant I was planning on doing delayed/selective. Then when I sat down with a list of vaccines and diseases, the only two that scared me were measles and polio. And then I researched the diseases (love both Aviva Romm's book and "How to Raise a Healthy Child in spite of your Doctor") and realized they weren't as scary as I thought. So we didn't do any.

That brings up another difficult issue - how do you decide who you're comfortable sharing your vax choices with & if you meet resistance from anyone, how do you react?

It depends. Usually, I don't tell people. I get around by saying things like "not yet", when asked if he's has his _ month shots. I have told my immediate family and only my father had anything to say about. Until I started listing side effects that both me and my sister suffer from. He hasn't said another word since!

[sunanthem]

We havent vaxed our kids either. I was never fearful of being called in for not being a good parent, I am more outraged at the insistence of filling my children with such horrible things. I homebirthed, so that saved me from alot of the pressure. I knew they were bad from the beginning, but really had to find out more for myself. I read and watched documentaries, I even had a friend who wrote to the vaccine companies themselves and asked for a list of ingredients to the vaccines. After she looked up the terminology of the ingredients she and I were both horrified.
But I too, had a family influenced who did not agree with us, my mother in law is a nurse and has worked at baby clinics, so she was a tough one to deal with with our views. You just have to stay strong and commited to your decison if you choose not to vax, and of course, do your research!
I am now facing having to get the vaccine exemption b/c we just decided to put our kids in school. I dont think it will be too hard, just something else we have to do to get ready for school.

[nerdymom]

That brings up another difficult issue - how do you decide who you're comfortable sharing your vax choices with & if you meet resistance from anyone, how do you react?

I approach this issue like I do with my decision to HB. I don't volunteer the info, because I have no desire to get involved in a pointless dispute with someone who isn't truly interested in either the well-being of my child or opening their own mind to a different idea. At the same time, I won't shy away from the truth. When asked, I tell the truth and try to leave it at that. I have a lot of practice avoiding pointless conflicts, as I was homeschooled K-12. :D

I will engage in discussion with someone who is genuinely interested, or I feel deserves to know my reasoning (grandparents, some family members, close friends). I also have had many opportunities already to casually bring up some of these subjects with newly pg friends and coworkers. I will continue to encourage women I know to make empowered birth choices and to continue making informed childcare decisions long after birth.

I'm not prepared however, to have hollow arguments with people who aren't respectful about the fact that this is a serious issue about which I will do a thesis worth of research on.

Exactly. Just as non/selective vaxers need to be thoughtful and nonjudgemental/confrontational when talking about this issue, we also have the right to NOT engage in a discussion with someone who is not so respectful.

I told my Mum who simply said 'I know you won't make any decisions about your babe without the most compelling of arguments.' ...which I take to mean, 'I don't altogether agree but I respect your right to do so.'

:love That is awesome! My mom doesn't agree with HB, but when one of her friends told her not to "let" me HB, my mom replied "I taught my kids to make good, informed decisions and to do what they believe is right. I am not going to fault my daughter for doing exactly what I taught her to do." :love Moms can be so awsome!

[calendula]

I moved from a state with a philosophical exemption to NY state which only has religious exemption (I believe). Does anyone have direct experience with the religious exemption. I mean what can you claim to be? If anything, I'd say I'm buddhist, but I don't have tons of religious knowledge to point to, to back up an exemption claim. So now I am due with #2 baby I don't know what to do about VAX.

With my 1st child we did partial and delayed vax. It worked out really well but waivers were easy to come by where we used to live.

Now I'm in a different state I just don't know what to do. I have heard its really hard to get a waiver here in NY.

[Kiddoson]

I moved from a state with a philosophical exemption to NY state which only has religious exemption (I believe). Does anyone have direct experience with the religious exemption. I mean what can you claim to be? If anything, I'd say I'm buddhist, but I don't have tons of religious knowledge to point to, to back up an exemption claim. So now I am due with #2 baby I don't know what to do about VAX.

With my 1st child we did partial and delayed vax. It worked out really well but waivers were easy to come by where we used to live.

Now I'm in a different state I just don't know what to do. I have heard its really hard to get a waiver here in NY.

You don't to explain your religous exemption. Just state that you have it. When you have to turn it in for something I include a copy of the state law. If someone pushes me I state it's personal but no one has ever bothered us, much less asked for the exemption.

[alegna]

You don't to explain your religous exemption. Just state that you have it. When you have to turn it in for something I include a copy of the state law. If someone pushes me I state it's personal but no one has ever bothered us, much less asked for the exemption.

Actually, sadly (and most likely illegally- but it stands until challenged) in NY you DO have to explain yourself...

-Angela

[Kiddoson]

Actually, sadly (and most likely illegally- but it stands until challenged) in NY you DO have to explain yourself...

-Angela

Is that new?We lived in NY til DD was 3...

[alegna]

Is that new?We lived in NY til DD was 3...

No, not new, but enforced differently in different areas.

-Angela

[calendula]

So if you do have to explain yourself in NY (which is what I'd heard) does anyone know what that means exactly? Do you, for example, have to quote from "your" religious texts? Anyone have experience with this?

Thanks.

[pitchfork]

I'd like to know as well about the religious exemption in NY state, as we are in NYC. I worry that we will hit some really tough stuff when it comes to school age.

We have not vaxed at all, and DS had seizures at birth (they were an electrolyte imbalance, so no real threat of them recurring) but I have seen a history of seizures listed as a contraindiation for vaxing, so I use that as an "excuse" if a conversation on it goes weird.

My question is this:
Have any of you with unvaxed DCs actually had their child get a scary disease? Did it change how you felt about vaxing?

It has been my experience that it's easy to be at least moderately comfortable, if not outright self-righteous with a non-mainstream choice as long as there are no real scary consequences. For instance, I felt totally comfortable with planning a home birth, and then we had life threatening complications. Just the thing that people scare you with about HB. I don't regret my HB, in fact I plan to have a second child at home as well, but I have had to do some soul searching. It was easy before the life/death situation to be a tad smug about HB.

With vax, I have to accept the possibilty, however remote, of my child getting a serious illness. Having already watched my child almost die, I get it that healthy living does not prevent serious medical issues. Just like so many choices in parenthood, the responsibility is heavy...

[alegna]

NY is tricky. Those of you there- I suggest a thorough search of the vax forums for info. It's not difficult to create a proper letter that won't get thrown out, but it is a more complex requirement than other states.

-Angela

[alegna]

My question is this:
Have any of you with unvaxed DCs actually had their child get a scary disease? Did it change how you felt about vaxing?


We've not (as far as I know) had any of the vaccine available diseases yet.

There are several posters who have dealt with some of them though.

-Angela

[sunanthem]

We havent gotten any either, but if we did, I would probably stay home with my children and nurse them through it. I had a friend who does not vax whose kids got whooping cough, and thats what she did, I dont believe her views on vaccines changed at all.
Here's a link that might help some of you in NY, its New Yorkers for vaccine info and choice; http://goodlight.net/nyvic/

[Kiddoson]

We havent gotten any either, but if we did, I would probably stay home with my children and nurse them through it. I had a friend who does not vax whose kids got whooping cough, and thats what she did, I dont believe her views on vaccines changed at all.


Nor would it for me, esp since vaccinated children get it too....
My DS got RSV @ 5 months, we were admited to the hospital, he never went in the "crib" and we nursed through it. Didn't change my thoughts on vaccines one bit.

[mtnsunshinemama]

My son is almost 3 and has had no vaccines yet. We did our research before he was born and then opted to wait. Now, with an appt. on Friday we are thinking of starting a selective schedule.
We'll look at the research again, but can any selective vaxxers tell me which they started or would start with?

Especially considering he has a 5 month old sister, goes to a small (6 kids) daycare 2 X week and there is a lot of whooping cough in our county?

[Arwyn]

There's a whole Selective/Delayed forum here (http://www.mothering.com/discussions/forumdisplay.php?f=373). And here's (http://www.mothering.com/discussions/showthread.php?t=509379) a thread with people sharing their S/D schedule. :)

[alegna]

Especially considering he has a 5 month old sister, goes to a small (6 kids) daycare 2 X week and there is a lot of whooping cough in our county?

Be aware that the pertussis (WC) vaccine does NOT prevent transmission.

-Angela

[EmilyM]

I am a speech pathologist and worked with autistic children all throughout grad school, so I was exposed to the autism/vaccine theories from these kids' parents early on. This made me wary when my daughter was born in January of 07. She was dx'd with a congenital heart defect (mild pulmonary stenosis), at her 2 week checkup and it sent me into a horrific, anxiety ridden state. It was like I didn't have the energy to question her shots although I didn't ever feel "right" about them. After her 6 month appointment she ran a high fever and cried on and off for 48 hours, when her occipital lymph nodes became hugely swollen I freaked out and called the hospital. They told me it was a reaction to the vaccinations and that I should take her to the doctor. The next day doc told me that "it was probably the DTaP and it will be worse next time, but at least she will be 18 mos and can tell you she doesn't feel well". She also told me the huge nodes were always from trauma to the scalp, and "did she have a scratch that you weren't aware of"? Guess who won't be getting her booster next week. I am going to seek a medical exemption but am pretty sure that won't happen given doc's previous thoughts on the subject. She wasn't too pushy when we refused the MMR and CP shots, just had us sign the waiver, so I guess we'll see. Everyday I question myself, but know that I cannot stand there while they vaccinate her and then wait for what "worse" will be. My daughter is supposed to start a private Montessori this Fall and I wonder if they will even take her once they get the medical forms. It is sad, I don't trust the FDA or the CDC or the drug companies. It is hard to be a parent today. I am even questioning having another child.

[MaterPrimaePuellae]

I am a speech pathologist and worked with autistic children all throughout grad school, so I was exposed to the autism/vaccine theories from these kids' parents early on. This made me wary when my daughter was born in January of 07. She was dx'd with a congenital heart defect (mild pulmonary stenosis), at her 2 week checkup and it sent me into a horrific, anxiety ridden state. It was like I didn't have the energy to question her shots although I didn't ever feel "right" about them. After her 6 month appointment she ran a high fever and cried on and off for 48 hours, when her occipital lymph nodes became hugely swollen I freaked out and called the hospital. They told me it was a reaction to the vaccinations and that I should take her to the doctor. The next day doc told me that "it was probably the DTaP and it will be worse next time, but at least she will be 18 mos and can tell you she doesn't feel well". She also told me the huge nodes were always from trauma to the scalp, and "did she have a scratch that you weren't aware of"? Guess who won't be getting her booster next week. I am going to seek a medical exemption but am pretty sure that won't happen given doc's previous thoughts on the subject. She wasn't too pushy when we refused the MMR and CP shots, just had us sign the waiver, so I guess we'll see. Everyday I question myself, but know that I cannot stand there while they vaccinate her and then wait for what "worse" will be. My daughter is supposed to start a private Montessori in this Fall and I wonder if they will even take her once they get the medical forms. It is sad, I don't trust the FDA or the CDC or the drug companies. It is hard to be parent today. I am even questioning having another child.


Thank you for sharing this. This is exactly the sort of story that scares me most-- it seems to me that a good doctor in this situation-- even if she believed whole-heartedly in vaccinating-- would say, "Well, let's be glad that she has some immunity which will hopefully get her through 12 mos without pertussis, and now we know that she shouldn't get the Dtap again." Yes-- it really is sad.

[CrunchyMamaToBe]

I'm so glad that I am not the only one who feels overwhelmed by the vaccination issue. Glad that this workshop is here... the vaccines forum can be really intimidating!!!

We haven't vaccinated our 20 month old son at all. We're open to it, we were especially open to it in the case of whooping cough through his first winter, but not 'open' enough to seek out a health care provider that would offer it as a single vaccine rather than through the '5-in-1' that's offered here in the UK. Now that he's out of the 'danger zone' for whooping cough, I feel much less compelled to a) do any more research or b) actually go out and find the vaccines.

We now know that we're going to be moving back to the US in 2-3 years, so DS will start school there. Who knows what state. I don't want to get backed into a corner over the vaccines and end up having to give him 15 shots in one summer so that he can go to school. (Vaccines aren't required for school entry here.) Which makes me think we should start working on a delayed schedule for him, but the idea of injecting aluminum and formaldehyde into my baby makes my hair stand on end.

On a side note, my son had chicken pox a few months ago (aged 17 months). He caught it from *his father* !!! If anyone is wondering whether to expose their babe to CP, I say go for it. Having watched two cases one right after the other, I would much prefer to nurse a toddler through CP than an adult.

[alegna]

We haven't vaccinated our 20 month old son at all. We're open to it, we were especially open to it in the case of whooping cough through his first winter, but not 'open' enough to seek out a health care provider that would offer it as a single vaccine rather than through the '5-in-1' that's offered here in the UK. Now that he's out of the 'danger zone' for whooping cough, I feel much less compelled to a) do any more research or b) actually go out and find the vaccines.

Two bits of info- 1. the pertussis (WC) vaccine is not available solo. The smallest combo it's available as is DTaP.

2. Winter actually isn't pertussis season. Late summer/early fall is.

-Angela

[Fyrestorm]

but not 'open' enough to seek out a health care provider that would offer it as a single vaccine rather than through the '5-in-1' that's offered here in the UK.

The aP part is not available as a single vaccine anywhere AFAK.


We now know that we're going to be moving back to the US in 2-3 years, so DS will start school there. Who knows what state. I don't want to get backed into a corner over the vaccines and end up having to give him 15 shots in one summer so that he can go to school. (Vaccines aren't required for school entry here.) Which makes me think we should start working on a delayed schedule for him, but the idea of injecting aluminum and formaldehyde into my baby makes my hair stand on end.

Every state in the US with the exception of Mississippi and West Virginia offer a religious exemption some also offer a philosophical one. You don't HAVE to vaccinate for school entry in the US.

[Sileree]

However, I went ahead and authorized it at his two month visit - the reason is is that the CDC reports that 30% of the people with Hep B acquired it in childhood.

Where did you get that number? I'm just curious. :scratch The Pink Book states that 4% of acute infections occur in the perinatal period, 4% in childhood and 8% in adolescence.

[lachingona1]

I'll add some more to my last post....


In 1991 VAERS (vaccine adverse effect reporting system) was set up by the FDA and CDC. There was no record keeping agency in the US prior to that where physicians could report vaccine reactions. In 1986 The National Childhood Vaccine Injury Act law was signed y Reagan that let drug companies off the hook when children died form side effects by decreeing, no vaccine manufacturer shall be liable in a civil action for damages or death from vaccines.
VAERS is an offshoot of that act.

33,000 reactions were reported between 1992 and 1996. Before then no one knows because there was no reporting agency.

Everyone was saying how safe vaccines were, but how would they know if no one was keeping track of the reactions? The majority of doctors simply don't report adverse reactions to vaccines. The FDA estimates that doctors only report 10% of adverse reactions. So, at only 10%, thats over 330,000 actual reactions in a five year period. ONly 2% of doctors admit that they report reactions, because they think that if they report a true adverse reaction it will contribute to a lack of public confidence in vaccination, therefore decreasing their paychecks! It is entirely possible that only 1% gets reported to VAERS.

So the FDA estimates only 11,000 serious reactions a year, thats involving either death or hospitalization. If this is only 10% then thats 110,000 reactions per year. If the true figure is really 1% of actual reactions, which possible because no one has ever kept tracked, that means that there could be 1.1 million serious adverse reactions per year involving death, permanent injury or hospitalization . Such epidemic could actually be in place in the US now and no one is even studying it!

There is also no follow up done by the CDC and FDA with all these reports of death and neurological damage to infants, follow up wasn't part of the original design.

Also according to VAERS rules, reporting has to be done within 7 days of the vaccine. SO if your infant dies 8 days later, that is not counted as a reaction to vaccines. By 1999, 5385 petitions for damages had been filed with VAERS. Because of the legal obstacles and paperwork involves only about 1300 have ever collected. Even so the total amount recovered for vaccine damages is 1.24 billion. This money comes not from the vaccines companies but from government funds i.e, the taxpayers.


So to lay this out:

~It is something like 40 vaccines are mandated by law in the US for kids under 6 years.

~No one knows how many thousands have died or suffered, since there was no reporting agency until 1991.

~The drug companies are immune from prosecution by federal law.

~ Even though a reporting agency is in place, less that 10% of actual ill effects are reported.

~The reporting system didn't include follow-ups of the reported cases.

~Compensation for the reactions is borne by the taxpayers.

[goddessjulia]

My question is this:
Have any of you with unvaxed DCs actually had their child get a scary disease? Did it change how you felt about vaxing?
<snip>
With vax, I have to accept the possibilty, however remote, of my child getting a serious illness. Having already watched my child almost die, I get it that healthy living does not prevent serious medical issues. Just like so many choices in parenthood, the responsibility is heavy...

:yeah: every choice we make has such potentially far-reaching implications!! but if we sweat too much we'll just be beating ourselves up all the time (ask me how I know :lol). we may have been exposed to pertussis when ds was... maybe 3? 2 friends, both nonvaxers, got it. ds did not, although I should add that it was one playdate and they were not showing signs yet. I don't think either mom changed their minds about not vaxing. I've lost touch with one of the moms, but the other is still a dear friend and it was really amazing and beautiful to me to watch her go through her firstborn having pertussis and not ever panicking! she even managed to avoid antibiotics (pertussis is a bacterial infection, so antibiotics can potentially be effective against it) and synthetic otc treatments. he had the lingering cough for months, and she told me that it got kinda bad a few times but never severe, and on they went. that's as close as we've come so far.

my non-vaxing path went like this: I read before ds was born about these risks, and the diseases. I am a bit too suspicious of profit-driven "medicine" and so was inclined against it anyways (plus I guess I kinda like being a rebel :wink). I read an older edition of Mendelssohn's book-- How to Raise a Healthy Child in Spite of Your Doctor. it sounded to me like the diseases, with the exceptions of polio and pertussis, were almost never severe (certainly not in this modern world with the resources we have available). and, I read that half of new pertussis cases are in vaxed individuals, so I thought that made the risk there not worth it. with ds we did do the first 2 polio shots because I was just too scared of polio, but we didn't do any others. with him we had a great ped who told me vaccines were basically "just a social contract" and who couldn't care less if I did any of them. since moving we have an OK family dr, but she is pro-vax and has even pressured me about it with dd who just turned one. however, she backed off when I calmly said no to her "aren't you worried about--??" comments. it's not that I'm not worried, it's just that so many other things are so much more likely to happen, kwim? anyway, with dd we have done no shots. when she is older, like preteen or teen, we'll talk about rubella and pregnancy risks and research that at that time. and, if we ever do any international travel I'll have to reevaluate depending on where we're going, I guess.

I think the only thing that would be a reason for me to have a different approach would be if I knew my child was immunocompromised in some way, or had some congenital defect such that getting through a challenging illness would be unusually difficult. then I'd probably think I should use the vaccines to protect my child. we have religious exemption here in GA, so if they ever go to school it's not much of an issue (unless you count the issue of having to call it a religious reason, but that's not a battle for me to take on!). as it stands they are/will be homeschooled and I don't see that changing anytime soon :wink

[RasJi7]

DS was born in the US and I declined the HepB fully thinking I would come back to my husband's country (British Virgin Islands) and go with their schedule which doesn't start vaxes until 2months of age.

At 2months old I took him for his checkup and they wanted to do Dtap (Except here it is a 5-in-1 including HepB) They only had 3 of the 5 (they put them into one syringe needle thing and do them all at once. DS just got a clight fever after which I kept down by walking outside with him in the moby wrap on a cooler evening and kept wiping his head with a wet wash cloth I had brought with me. By the next day he was fine.

Then I started researching vaccines (I had spent my time pg researching BFing as I knew I would have little to no support here and then I had a cesarean and had complications from that so research on the vax was delayed) and someone pointed me to a website that listed the vax ingredients. Besides having a problem with heavy metals (which pg women are told to avoid throughout pg and then their baby comes into the world and they encouraged to inject heavy metals into their child?!?!) I have a problem with the animal tissue and the aborted fetal matter.

Having a vegan diet and constantly striving for the path of non-violence I do not support kiling animals for food or for science expeirments (I am however a organ/body donor for when I die). Also I wonder if the women that came to the difficult decision to have an abortion would have consented to their fetus's tissue being injected into other people's chidren? My gut tells me they wouldn't have agreed to that and it sounds like some kind of frankenstein science to me.

My DH was already leary of the vaccines before doing our research so he was easy to convince when I decided I didn't want them. I continue to share the info with him in case he ever needs to present an argument or just wants to inform someone. Besides him I tell my Mom, a baby boomer who wants the best for me and her only grandchild no matter what so she was nervous about it (also grew up during the height of vax propaganda) but reads all the info i send her about vaxing and I am about to send her a book list from this thread for her to check out from her library in Asheville, NC (a crunchy town indeed). I know that she will go get them out, read them and report back to me- she is all around wonderful like that and the biggest blessing in my life- her love is a self-less and unconditional love and because of her I know how to be a human being and a Mom.

This is getting long... I am in the BVI where vaxes are not yet being questioned. God put me on the path to meet the one person who has decided to take a stand against having to vax. She is a young empress (rasta woman) and has researched and written her own exemption letter which is currently circulating through the ministries (govt departments). She is leading the way and I am right behind her, not because i think that everyone should stop vaxing but because I believe it should be a choice and that it is our right as parents to decide what we inject into our children.

I do not plan on telling DH's family who generally have strong opinions about things without little or no research, just go with whatever they are feeling at the moment. They have been a source of stress but also a catalyst for growth as far as my ability to remain graceful in any circumstance. It is my goal to be very well-spoken about the diseases and vaxes (history of them as well as current ingredients, etc) and natural immunity before they know so that I can present them with these facts. They will undoubtedly still have their strong opinions on what a crazy white girl I am but I don't think the reaction will be as strong as if I just said we don't 'feel' like it's the right decision for us.

I am curious about this post "I agree with the pp that the fear mongoring and $$ on both sides of the issue really gets in the way and in the end it is kids who suffer. This is maddening to me." What monetary gain is on the side of non-vaxing? just curious if there is another aspect of this I am not thinking of because I can't think of any gain for those not vaxing. $$$ on the side of vaxin for the industry but not on the other side, right?

[CrunchyMamaToBe]

At 2months old I took him for his checkup and they wanted to do Dtap (Except here it is a 5-in-1 including HepB) They only had 3 of the 5 (they put them into one syringe needle thing and do them all at once.

A couple of things on this... If your 5-in-1 is the same as ours, it's DTaP plus Hib, not Hep B. Not that that makes me any more comfortable giving it to my kid.

And, can I clarify, the 5-in-1 wasn't really a 5-in-1 when your DS had it? They had to physically do the mixing of the different components there?

[Bellabaz]

I moved from a state with a philosophical exemption to NY state which only has religious exemption (I believe). Does anyone have direct experience with the religious exemption. I mean what can you claim to be? If anything, I'd say I'm buddhist, but I don't have tons of religious knowledge to point to, to back up an exemption claim. So now I am due with #2 baby I don't know what to do about VAX.

With my 1st child we did partial and delayed vax. It worked out really well but waivers were easy to come by where we used to live.

Now I'm in a different state I just don't know what to do. I have heard its really hard to get a waiver here in NY.

I live in NY and I researched this when I was pg. You don't have to be a member of a specific religion. It was my understanding that you had to write up why your personal faith beliefs prohibited you and your family from vaxing. And if that is too hard or complicated, there is always christian scientists and you could say you are one of those (if it doesn't bother you to just claim stuff like that. I don't mean to offend anyone but if I had to pretend to be a member of a specific religion to get this exemption I would.)

[RasJi7]

sorry duplicate post- slow connection

[RasJi7]

A couple of things on this... If your 5-in-1 is the same as ours, it's DTaP plus Hib, not Hep B. Not that that makes me any more comfortable giving it to my kid.

And, can I clarify, the 5-in-1 wasn't really a 5-in-1 when your DS had it? They had to physically do the mixing of the different components there?

Thanks for the info on the 5-in-1, and yes she physically put the needle in each container and sucked them one by one into the needle.
I just checked the sheet they had given me with the shots and this is what they wrote down, "DPT/DT, Hep B, Hib" and the next time they wanted him to get all that PLUS oral polio. not sure which one she was out of but she said it was supposed to have something else as well.

[listipton]

In most cases, you can't *technically* vax like that and have kids in daycares/schools. The way around it is to get a religious exemption and not tell them about any further vaxes.

-Angela

I was researching a the school laws/requirements for vax in my state and came up with this site: http://www.mercola.com/article/vaccines/legally_avoid_shots.htm

I haven 't needed to put any of it's advice into effect yet as my daughter is not school age yet, but I liked some of this site's suggestions. It might be helpful if anyone does have to argue the issue with a school board and isn't comfortable using a religious reason.

[listipton]

I haven't read any of these but thanks for the start- I'm a librarian and there are NO books on Vaccination in my library and I am looking for good titles to explore and add to the collection for all the parents in my community!

[mtnsunshinemama]

There's a whole Selective/Delayed forum here (http://www.mothering.com/discussions/forumdisplay.php?f=373). And here's (http://www.mothering.com/discussions/showthread.php?t=509379) a thread with people sharing their S/D schedule. :)

Be aware that the pertussis (WC) vaccine does NOT prevent transmission.

-Angela

Thanks!:thumb

[mamadeo]

I am a mother to a wonderful 1 yo baby girl. She has never been vaccinated. Initially, it was a difficult decision to make. But, once I learned about how rare the serious diseases were, measured against the vax risks, I decided not to vax. I am always open to new information and might reevaluate in the future. But for now, I firmly believe vaccinations are too dangerous for my precious girl.

I don't feel any pressure to vax. I was surprised to read how much fear has been thrust upon so many of you great parents who are actively trying to make the best decisions for your children. Perhaps because I am an attorney, doctors and other folks don't try to bully me so much.

[Nillarilla]

The decision on vaxes is still a complex on