C-Section Baby

[Juice23]

I've been reading all the posts about emergency and elective c-sections, and I have really been upset by a lot of the choices being made. Most of the mothers are afraid of having VBACs b/c of the minimal risk of uterine rupture or b/c their Docs tell them they can't have a vaginal birth with any subsequent children. It really is a shame that women have been frightened into such powerless roles.

I am writing this post because I was a baby taken by C-section. My mom wanted to have a vaginal birth, but her doc ordered her to have a c-section because they thought I was a month overdue. Turns out I was probably born about three weeks too early. I am now 23 years old and my mom had four other children-all vaginally with no problems whatsoever (three of them at home). I want moms to know the effects that c-sections can have on their babies-I'm not talking physical either. I am talking about emotional affects. I am not a researcher and I have no scientific data to back up my post, but I have personal experience.

For my entire life, I have been suffering from abandonment issues. Not until about three or four years ago did I finally make the connection that it had to do with the way I was born. My parents have always been present in my life and have always affirmed their love for me-no matter what I do-but I have never been able to go far from them or do things on my own without complete fear of being abandoned (again). The sad thing about it is that my parents never abandoned me in the first place-but I always thought they did b/c they allowed the doctor to take me from my mother before I was ready. My mom also feels that I was taken from her too early and she has been dealing with her own issues about her c-section. She still has anger and resentment toward the doc, 23 years later.

In other areas of my life, I have had some love relationships, but they never last more than eight or nine months and I have figured out that part of the problem is that I have a real fear of the men leaving me (again, the abandonment thing). Oftentimes, I help derail the relationship so that they can't leave me first. The same thing happens in all of my friendships. I never stay friends with anyone for a very long time because I fear that they will end up abandoning me.

Luckily, I have many caring people in my life that are helping me work through these issues and I have been able to let go of the resentment that I have held towards my parents. I am not looking for sympathy, this is my path and I choose to work through my own stuff, BUT I am telling the mothers on this list so that they can make informed decisions about their birth choices with regard to how it might affect their children in the long run. Physical scars heal, but mental and emotional scars last a lifetime.

[Lucysmama]

Thank you for your post, and welcome to Mothering! I think you will see that the vast majority of women here are very informed about c/sec hazards, and most do not do elective cesarean unless they feel strongly about not attempting a VBAC. I agree with you, our cesarean rate is very high, and women are not being informed about the real (minimal) risks of VBAC.
Our VBAC forum here is a very supportive place, and many women go there for support when attempting a VBAC and for help on dealing with feelings about c/secs and VBAC.

:hug Sorry your own birth didn't go well...I was also born via an unnecessary cesarean.

[Arduinna]

Thank you for your honest post and welsome to Mothering.

I agree that many people make the decision to have elective c sections based on either pressure from their Dr or from being uninformed. My own sister had an elective c section 3 weeks prior to her due date so she could be sure not to be in the hospital during Xmas and make sure she was up to hosting parties. :rolleyes:

[ladylee]

durn doublepost!

[ladylee]

Have you ever considered rebirthing? I found it resolved many issues I felt stemmed from my own birth (a vaginal one, btw.) I did it for dd#1 ( a cesarean delivery) in my way, and it was also very helpful. I wish you much luck in your healing journey.

I also found attachment parenting to be an integral part of the healing process from a cesarean birth, and I'm sure it was for my daughter as well.

"It really is a shame that women have been frightened into such powerless roles."-Juice 23

I've birthed twice by cesarean-neither time did I feel I was in a powerless role. Giving away your power is not an exclusive symptom of cesarean births. I'm quite certain many others would say the same. Just introducing a different perspective for you to consider.

[Juice23]

Thank you for the welcomes.

I'm not saying that c-sections put women into powerless roles. All types of births can leave women feeling powerless if they are uninformed or miseducated. It is too bad that medical professionals fail to really inform women on what their choices are, often forcing them to make choices based on what the Doc thinks is right, not what SHE wants or thinks is right. This is how they are powerless.

I have not considered doing a re-birth (not because I don't want to, just because it never crossed my mind to do one). I have heard of them, though. I will have to check into it and see what it might do for both my mom and me.

Anyway, my point is that C-sections are tough on moms AND babies and when a woman is considering a c-section, she should take into account any emotional affects that it may have on her child (we won't even get into the physical affects since that would be another post entirely).

I'd also like to reply to the comment about how women do not elect to have c-sections. In reality, they do. Every time you read a post from a woman that has had an emergency c-section and has been told that she cannot have a VBAC or has decided not to have a VBAC, she is electing to have a c-section. There is no other option to deliver your child, besides a c-section, if you don't do it vaginally. When a woman sits down with her doc to schedule the c-section, she is electing to have it, since she has chosen not to deliver vaginally.

BTW, I am the oldest, so all four of my siblings could/would be considered VBAC births, and my mom was the first woman to have a VBAC in the state of Ohio.

[Lucysmama]

Originally posted by Juice23
\
I'd also like to reply to the comment about how women do not elect to have c-sections. In reality, they do.

That is not the point I was trying to make..sorry for the misunderstanding. I was saying, here at MDC, a great many women DO have VBAC, and are better informed than other peer groups I have been exposed to. I was saying that you may find that to be true as you get to know everyone here at MDC.

Of course, women do elect to have c-sections again, and that is a very personal decision. Believe me, as a woman who was both BORN by and who has birthed by unnecessary c-sec, nothing makes me angrier than women being coerced, bullied, and misinformed regarding VBAC. :angry

There are, of course, instances where c/sec is a wonderful and lifesaving procedure. However, proximity does breed overuse, and FAR too many women are being wheeled into the OR. :(

Where in Ohio do you live? I'm an Ohioan too! :D

[its_our_family]

Originally posted by Juice23

I'm not saying that c-sections put women into powerless roles. All types of births can leave women feeling powerless if they are uninformed or miseducated. It is too bad that medical professionals fail to really inform women on what their choices are, often forcing them to make choices based on what the Doc thinks is right, not what SHE wants or thinks is right. This is how they are powerless.

I'd also like to reply to the comment about how women do not elect to have c-sections. In reality, they do. Every time you read a post from a woman that has had an emergency c-section and has been told that she cannot have a VBAC or has decided not to have a VBAC, she is electing to have a c-section. There is no other option to deliver your child, besides a c-section, if you don't do it vaginally. When a woman sits down with her doc to schedule the c-section, she is electing to have it, since she has chosen not to deliver vaginally.


Ppl are miseducated both ways. I was talking to a gal on another board who lost her son and her uterus in birth because her ob never mentioned the possibility of rupture. And another gal who did rupture but her babe was just fine and was not told it was possible. just like everything else in life it is our responsibility to do the research and educate ourselves. We can't expect someone else to do it for us.

And yes, there are some women who do not have the choice. There are certain physical things that make it impossible to deliver vaginally and yes there are women here like that.

Just don't assume that ppl have let someone else make their decision. Sometimes things happen.

[Greaseball]

It surprises me how many women are having them. I remember being in my AIDS & STDs class and the teacher was talking about herpes and c/s, and I mentioned that there were some practitioners (midwives) who just cover herpes lesions with plastic wrap and deliver the baby vaginally. The teacher said thta no one goes into a c/s lightly, that it's always a thought out decision. That's not true! I'm amazed at what I hear in my small town of how many pregnant women are going to ask for a c/s at their first prenatal appt, non-pg women who say that as soon as they conceive they will ask their doctor for one, and all the stupid reasons others have had them, like the woman who said she had to have one because the baby was 8 lbs.

I went to this restaurant in a town with the population of 2000 and a lot of the women in the restaurant were talking about their babies and most of them were born by c/s. Even in a town that small, it's normalized. The rate was only 5% in the US not long ago!

Books like What to Expect make it sound enjoyable by telling moms that during a c-birth "you just get to relax and enjoy everything!" They also recommend telling toddlers that "MOST babies come out of the mother's vagina." As if it's totally normal that some don't come out that way. What happened to the c/s as an emergency procedure?

"Large" babies are getting smaller and smaller. My dh weighed 9/5 and now a large baby is 8/13. No one told dh's mom that she might not be able to deliver her baby. It used to be that 24 hours was too long for your water to be broken, now in some places it's 12 hours. What's changed?

Most "emergency" cesareans are done during business hours. The rate is higher on holidays. Is it really the baby that has something wrong with it? If 25% of babies needed to be born that way or else they would die, the human race would never have grown to the rate it has.

BTW, about uterine rupture - sources I trust say it's a nonissue as long as Pitocin is not used. If you deliver in a hospital, you will most likely receive Pit. The safest place for a VBAC (or any birth, really) is at home. (My favorite book on the subject is Open Season.) The rate of rupture when Pit is not used is no different for VBACs than for unscarred uteri.

[Peppermint]

It is good that you are concerned about women being coerced into c-births and also being misinformed:thumb

However, it is always best, while trying to educate, to realize that you do not know everyone's situations.

I won't go into all the details here, but I am a c-birth mama of 2, and will always be a c-birth mama.


Originally posted by Juice23
I'd also like to reply to the comment about how women do not elect to have c-sections. In reality, they do. Every time you read a post from a woman that has had an emergency c-section and has been told that she cannot have a VBAC or has decided not to have a VBAC, she is electing to have a c-section. There is no other option to deliver your child, besides a c-section, if you don't do it vaginally. When a woman sits down with her doc to schedule the c-section, she is electing to have it, since she has chosen not to deliver vaginally.


This is where judgement of another's situation, and a lack of knowledge can come into play. I have a deformed pelvis, I have known since my very first pelvic exam that I would never deliver a baby vaginally, this has been confirmed by numerous OBs and midwives, as well as by an attempt to deliver vaginally, b/c I didn't like being told I couldn't. Well... I can't, my pelvis is deformed and I do not have a choice to have a vaginal birth, my c-births are not by "choice" they are a necessity and there are other medical conditions which make c-section a "necessity" as opposed to a choice, so when people talk about "educating" others about c-section, they need to realize that while many women may need their education, others have no choice, and are quite educated already.

I just ask that you not make assumptions #1- that people who have c-births are uneducated, #2- that it is a "choice" for everyone (sure I guess I could chose for my babies to die inside me :scratch )

Education is a great thing, but making assumptions about someone else's situation is not respectful.

[LisaG]

Hi! I have been following several threads in the c-sec, VBAC areas for a few days because my friend has been told, after having surgery to correct a uterine deformity, that she must have all her babies by c-section. She was told this despite all the research that suggests that, to the contrary, it would be safer for her to have a vagnal birth.

I am the mother of five children. My first was born by unnecessary c-section. How do I know this? Because my diagnosis was CPD and my ten pounder was followed by a 10 and a half pounder! My second, larger baby was the first VBAC in Columbus, Ohio.

Ladies, my midwives stopped doing pelvimetry after that birth because it proved that pelvimetry is basically a useless tool. But it taught them another lesson, too. That position during labor and birth makes a big difference in the baby's abiliy to navigate the birth canal.

This VBAC experience occurred in 1982. After that VBAC in hospital (OSU) atended by a midwife, a privately retained nurse and a high risk doc anxious to make a name for himself, I gave birth with no drugs, a hep lock inserted in the last four hours, I tore a bit because the doc wouldn't let the midwife do the perineal support and was discharged home with my baby two hours after birth with my beautiful second daughter in tow. My only regret: that I didn't do it at home where my other beautiful daughter could be a part of the expereince.

My next three children were born safely and wonderfully at home. To this day, there is no evidence of even the slightest dehisence to the scar. And each one of my babies was bigger than the last!

So why am I posting? My situation turned out great.

Well it wasn't great for the first year after my c-sec. I was depressed and suffering from what we now know as Post Traumatic Stress Disorder, which does occur after any kind of
birth wherein the mother felt violated, miseducated, misinformed or denied her right to choose.

I was told continuously in the last three months of pregnancy that my baby was too big for me and then, when the ultrasound scans showed a crown-rump measurement consistent with an older baby, my due date was changed to reflect the test despite me knowing exactly when I became pregnant. (By the way, ultrasound scans are not accurate predictors of fetal age and size, especially after 16 weeks gestation, but I didn't know that when I was pregnant with my first.)

I was induced at what the test showed was 42 weeks. My baby was actually only 38 weeks gestational age. Thank God they didn't induce me earlier! I shudder to think what might have happened! Then, RDS was a laife-threatening situation, the management was not nearly as good as it is now.) Well, She was not ready and neither was I and I didn't dilate. So off they took me to the OR and put me under without my consent. I woke up to see my gorgeous first baby two hours later when what I had planned was to breastfeed her within the first hour and go home ASAP after birth.

Breastfeeding went fine, and she was perfect, and I recovered without even a hint of a problem except that, down the road I have had probelms with muscular weakness in the area of the incision and adhesion problems. I have addressed both successfully with Pilates and craniosacral bodywork.
But I was depressed, angry, and fighting mad for years.

I had been violated and I was determined never to let anyone control my birthing situation again. And so my decisions were governed by that desire. And I have done what I wanted.

Each woman has that same right. They can choose to have repreat c-secs if thay want or they can have VBACs if they want. Some women (a very small percentage: 7% or less) will even need c-secs if they choose to continue having babies. The point here is, (a point that seems to be getting missed), that a woman's choice ought to be made after she has been as fully informed as is humanly possible.

To presume that what a doctor tells you is all the information that you ever need to make an informed decision is naive. In my own situation, my doc told me "no VBACs for you, you couldn't handle a big baby, ever. You or your baby could die." Well, was he wrong? Blatantly!!!!

Each and every woman owes it to herself AND to her baby to consider every shred of information out there in making her decision. Each person who shares a fact and an experience adds to the information bank. I don't think anyone who posts here intends to indicate that a particular choice is wrong, just that a particular reason for making that choice may not be based on full information.

I am sure that many of you are aware that the c-sec rate has climbed once again to well over 10% ( and in some communities, upweards of 30-40%) because of the abuse of epidural meds during childbirth. I can hear some of you now "I needed my epidural, etc., etc." Well, the fact still remains that epirdurals slow labor, cause babies' heart rates to decellerate necessitating c-sec intervention, lead to vacuum extraction for failure to progress. Now, this is not just my opinion, but solid, research-based fact. Those same childbirth drugs get to the baby within seconds of administartion and can negatively impact breastfeeding and bonding. Again, fact.

C-sections have a whole host of morbid and mortal side effects. Women still die from c-sections and so do babies. C-section wasn't even considered "safe" until the 1970s when there was a big leap in proper understanding and application of anesthetics.

So, when we consider the facts, a whole picture emerges around the relative wisdom of assuming that c-sec is an appropriate choice in all cases. If a safer, more advantageous choice could be made in a given situation, it ought to be. Proper choices can be made only when proper information is provided. Proper information does not include myth, desire, foolishness, monetray considerations, legal issues and opinion.

This means that each situation should be evaluated individually and on its own merits.

But, and here is my biggest point... the fact that c-section has negative consequences is a real concern that should not be dismissed. That vaginal birth in some situations has negative consequences is real, that epidurals and spinal's have negative consequences is real. In my mind, the questions needing answered are How do you avoid the worst possible scenario and protect your infant and yourself in the process? and What WILL You Do to compensate for the downside after the baby is born should you have to choose an approach that carries negative consequences?

It seems that to become defensive when other women present suggestions to address the various issues is a coverup for deeper feelings that perhaps should be addressed. I highly recommend that women have bodywork, talk therapy and the like to ferret out and address emotional and physical issues just as a matter of course post delivery of any kind. It never hurts to be proactive. And, hey, if you feel completely OK about the events of your birth, fabulous! Then life is sweet.

My daughter posted earlier. It was only through our mutual acknowledgement that something was up for both of us post her c-sec that we have been able to navigate the post-birth waters productively. We have done rebirthing and it helped. I have done much on my own and she is pursuing various avenues to assist her in her process. I wish I could have been more assertive for her sake, but I couldn't and wasn't and that is just the way it is. But, I didn't have to be a victim the next time around and so I wasn't. But that is just my way.

Yours may be different. But I hope that no matter what any one of you chooses, that it is a choice based on all information and after you ahve eben able to process any misgivings, fears and fallout from your previous birth experience.


Alison

[LisaG]

Hi ladies,

Just wanted to clarify that the above post was made by Alison, not me. We share a work computer and unbeknownst to her it automatically logged on with my screen name when she posted her reply.

Sorry for any confusion.

LisaG

[LisaG]

I was talking to a gal on another board who lost her son and her uterus in birth because her ob never mentioned the possibility of rupture. And another gal who did rupture but her babe was just fine and was not told it was possible.

I wonder if her doc told her how much the risk of rupture increased with use of any type of induction? :confused: Prostaglandin, pitocin, etc. are NOT a good combination with a scarred uterus. Unfortunately a lot of studies that explore uterine rupture fail to specifiy whether or not induction agents were used.

Also curious how many mom's who have v-birthed without previous uterine scars were told they were at risk for rupture? Because, while an infintismal (sp?) risk, uterine ruptures in unscarred uteruses, believe it or not, have a lot deadlier consequences to mom, baby and uterus than in scarred uteruses. Ironic, isn't it?

LisaG

[Greaseball]

I think anytime a doctor tells you your pelvis is too small, deformed, or has anything wrong with it whatsoever, get it confirmed by a professional - a midwife.

[Peppermint]

Originally posted by jess7396
I have a deformed pelvis, I have known since my very first pelvic exam that I would never deliver a baby vaginally, this has been confirmed by numerous OBs and midwives, as well as by an attempt to deliver vaginally, b/c I didn't like being told I couldn't.

As I said, *I* have had this confirmed, it is not that I have been lied to, it is a deformity, most likely linked to my scoliosis, but that is neither here nor there. Also, my OBs have all been very willing to be with me to attempt labor and delivery, b/c they knew what it meant to me to "know for sure", very supportive, not at all like many of the OBs described by others (who push c-sections).

I am not coming on here trying to be "defensive" of my c-births, I am just pointing out that when one seeks to educate others, they must take the time to listen, and be careful about making assumptions, esp. assuming that someone who has a c-section is ignorant about it, while that may often be the case, it is not always, and I think people should choose their words carefully when trying to convince/educate others.

[Juice23]

Unfortunately, I think everyone missed my point. I am NOT making any assumptions about whether anyone's personal reasons for having c-sections are right or wrong. Based on some of the posts I have read on the other threads, it is apparent to me that some of the women here (and I am not singling anyone out-they are just women who have posted) have made decisions based on what their docs have told them, seem to be unhappy about it, but don't know what else to do about it, except to go along with what their docs say in the future. It is impossible for any one of us to consider every angle when writing a post on this board. If we did, we would never actually get anything posted b/c we would constantly be typing new things.

Anyway, back to my original point in my original post. The POINT is that when making your decisions on how to deliver-whether by C-section or Vaginally (whichever is best for you, depending on your personal circumstances) DO NOT just consider how it will affect YOU. Also consider how it mioght affect your BABY b/c your choices are affecting two, three, four, etc. people. You choices now have long lasting effects on your child. And THIS is what we should be concerned about here, not whether a c-section is right b/c of your circumstances.

Furthermore, if you do have a c-section, consider that the needs of your child may be greater and build in support for that. Obviously, sometimes, c-section will be necessary, sometimes it is unavoidable, but make sure your child's needs are met just the same as yours are being met.

[its_our_family]

Originally posted by Juice23

Anyway, back to my original point in my original post. The POINT is that when making your decisions on how to deliver-whether by C-section or Vaginally (whichever is best for you, depending on your personal circumstances) DO NOT just consider how it will affect YOU. Also consider how it mioght affect your BABY b/c your choices are affecting two, three, four, etc. people. You choices now have long lasting effects on your child. And THIS is what we should be concerned about here, not whether a c-section is right b/c of your circumstances.

Furthermore, if you do have a c-section, consider that the needs of your child may be greater and build in support for that. Obviously, sometimes, c-section will be necessary, sometimes it is unavoidable, but make sure your child's needs are met just the same as yours are being met.

Are you talking immediate needs, like after birth. But over all growing up needs?

Because that is the point of attachment parenting. To give your child all the support they need in every aspect of life. So maybe the issue isn't necessarily the birth but in parenting choices.

[its_our_family]

Oops....double post.... :duh

[its_our_family]

ooops...third post? :confused

[Juice23]

Support directly after birth and throughout life. My mom did attachment parenting with me, but my emotional scars were due to my c-section and that feeling of abandonment that arose from being "ripped" from my mother's body/uterus.

I posted my original post to give women a view of what emotional issues babies often go through due to the traumas of birth-vaginal and c-section. I merely wanted to allow women to see what can happen emotionally for a baby (both immediate and over a lifetime) based on what choices the mom makes NOW.

[Greaseball]

Yes, what about the baby? Too many people fail to think about that crucial element. Not just about c/s but other choices, like induction or drugs. It really does make a difference. I can't believe how many people schedule a c/s because of a vacation, or because they are afraid labor will hurt. What about the baby?

Also, in my small town, I heard a woman talking about the time a doctor left an instrument inside her during her cesarean. This error was not discovered until her next pregnancy. So it's not just an urban legend.:(

How we are born truly does matter. Not to say it can't be overcome, but best to avoid that in the first place. Surgery should be reserved for true emergencies. It sounds so obvious!

[ladylee]

Juice23, I understood your point from the get go and it is a valid one. A woman who is either faced with an emergency cesarean or a planned (I'm not going to get into a debate over semantics and what "elective" means) cesarean would benefit from considering how it will effect the child emotionally throughout the course of their lives, and make preparations to address that both during and after the birth. Being aware of birth trauma impact from ANY type of birth would be a very smart thing to do.

Women who birth via cesarean do have the ability to create a loving, welcoming environment just as any other woman. With both of my births my children were brought into the world by kind, careful, honoring hands and I'm confident they continued to feel the love that surrounded them when in the womb once they were outside. I do energy work, and I surrounded them with loving, protective energy throughout the whole birth. Anyone can do this.

I also think there's a lot that can't be controlled--in terms of destiny. Every child has a destiny to be birthed a certain way, every mother has a destiny to give birth a certain way-and everything that goes with that-traumatic or not, is necessary for them to experience-to learn things we may not have understood before about ourselves
:hippie

[OnTheFence]

:( I just read this thread and I am so puzzled by some of the comments by the OP. I for one minute, am not going to buy that this posters emotional problems with abandonment deal with being birthed by csection.
I think to even suggest that children are damaged emotionally by csections is ludicrous and unfounded. I cant believe no one else has said anything -- I believe that this is just another way to judge women who do have csections and then place blame on them if something happens to their children down the road. The OP states that her mother used attachment parenting with her yet she feels abandonment from a birth she cant remember. And is csection a form of abandonment -- I think not.
I hope to the gods that my children don't try to blame any problems in their life based on the way they were birthed. Frankly, if they try, I might get really sarcastic and ask them had they rather died because that is what would have happened to them because they sure were not coming out vaginally.

:scratch

[sweetfeet]

I for one minute, am not going to buy that this posters emotional problems with abandonment deal with being birthed by csection.

I totally agree with you here. I did a double take when I read what the OP wrote. I was born by csection and had my dd by csection. I don't have any abandonment issues at all. I think it is almost laughable to imply that the way you are birthed resulted in your feelings of abandonment. How many other issues can we blame on csections? Next up is that all babies born via csection will be criminals. I really don't even see the whole point of this thread. If I am missing it my apologies.

[Peppermint]

ITA with OnThe Fence and Sweetfeet, I thought all of that when I first read this thread, but didn't have the guts to say it.

[Juice23]

I do not at all blame my parents for the emotional issues that I am dealing with. I think it is interesting that I am not allowed to judge other women's choices about c-section or vaginal births, but my thoughts about how the way a baby is birthed are allowed to be judged. It is interesting what a double standard there is. I was not meaning to pass any kind of judgment about c-sections, I was merely trying to point out that our choices do affect other people-including our children. And the reason I was upset by the other posts on other feeds was not because it pissed me off that those women chose c-section. It was because I felt that all these women (based on how I interpreted their own posts) were making choices based on misinformation or not being completely informed about ALL the risks involved in ALL the different choices out there.

I believe that my emotional issues are attached to trauma that has happened in my life-whether they be on the conscious or sub-conscious levels. Not everyone believes that physical and emotional trauma can affect us throughout our lives, but I do. In order to deal with these issues, I do a lot of therapy-CranioSacral Therapy, BodyTalk, etc. and one of the major issues that I have been dealing with has been my abandonment issues-which I originally thought may be linked to something else, but through my therapy sessions realized that it was connected to my birth. My mom has done her own therapy sessions and discovered that she was having issues that were connected to the same thing. Whether or not anyone else buys into what I am saying-I don't really care. I am not concerned with what other people think about what I do to treat myself. The point of the post was to give women a chance to see how their choices can affect their children-positively or negatively. I am not trying to say that ALL children born a certain way will wind up screwed up or not screwed up. I am only saying that Hey, it can happen, so consider that it can before you make your final decision. And I would be saying this whether we are talking about how to birth, raise, treat your children, or how you live your life in other ways. Know that YOUR choices have an affect on everyone you come in contact with-not just YOU.

[Greaseball]

Do you know for sure it was the c-section? You may have been taken to the nursery and mistreated. I don't know how old you are, but it could have been your mother was only allowed to ask for you at certain times, was not even allowed to unwrap you, and that your father was not allowed on the floor at all. Breastfeeding may have been discouraged, you may have been dangled upside down and slapped, had spinal taps, and who knows what else!

These things still happen today sometimes.:(

[Lucysmama]

Originally posted by Juice23
I think it is interesting that I am not allowed to judge other women's choices about c-section or vaginal births, but my thoughts about how the way a baby is birthed are allowed to be judged. It is interesting what a double standard there is. I was not meaning to pass any kind of judgment about c-sections, I was merely trying to point out that our choices do affect other people-including our children. And the reason I was upset by the other posts on other feeds was not because it pissed me off that those women chose c-section. It was because I felt that all these women (based on how I interpreted their own posts) were making choices based on misinformation or not being completely informed about ALL the risks involved in ALL the different choices out there.




You are "allowed" to judge other women's choices, but keep in mind that this is a community. Many of these women know each other well, and have been communicating for years. Some may take it personally when a new member comes and judges their choices without really taking the time to get to know them, or to find out the full story behind their births. Others may feel it is none of anyone's business, and that they do not have to justify their choices to anyone.

Secondly, I don't think anyone here is judging you for what you are posting...they are simply trying to help you understand where they are coming from, and to help educate you about where they stand on the issue you brought up and why.

What bothers me the most is when you say that "all these women" here at MDC are making decisions based on misinformation. Nobody can fully know that - maybe not even the woman herself. Women here at MDC are for the most part highly educated about birth, pregnancy, cesarean, etc... from what I have read - and I have read hundreds of posts on the subject - women here are intelligent, educated, and understand the risks to both them and their babies when it comes to c/section.

Perhaps the reason that you feel retaliated against is because you are making assumptions about other women's motives, education about birth and cesarean, and judging them based on that. This is a supportive forum, and generally we do not judge each other harsly. (At least in our posts...what you feel and think is up to you.) We are all here to learn and grow, and to help each other along on our roads of knowledge.

I understand this is a sensitive issue for you because you had a traumatic birth, but please do not judge we mothers who have had cesareans to be "misinformed."

[OnTheFence]

When I was a teen, 15 to be exact, I knew that I was going to do two things when I had children: have them at home and breastfeed. Before I got pregnant with my daughter I read everything I could get my hands on about natural childbirth and homebirth. I read the Silent Knife before it ever became a popular read and I read all kinds of information on the perils of having a csection (NONE I might add say that a child would be emotionally scarred for life)
I got pregnant and planned to have a natural vaginal delivery. I knew my stuff and I was determined. I agreed to have my first baby in a hospital at my husbands request. (he had two siblings die at birth or shortly after) Thank god I did.
I knew four weeks before I had my daughter I had a baby in the breech presentation. I was devastated. My doctor offered to deliver the baby vaginally if she was positioned correctly. Unfortunately with a transverse lie that was not an option. I did many things, suggested by local midwives, to turn the baby naturally. Nothing worked. Determined I knew best and my baby was just being stubborn for lying side to side I decided to have version. This was my choice and I made it because I wanted a natural vaginal delivery (at almost any cost). The version was attempted three times, complications took place and I ended up being an emergency csection. I lived my worst nightmare and then some. In a hazeys tate I was told I had a uterine deformity and that it was very unlikely I would ever have children vaginally. (unless they were grossly premature)
No one knew better than me the ills of csections and the effects on mother and child. No one. Now I come here to read this craziness that it can cause emotional damage to my children. What about violent or bad vaginal births that take place-- I wonder if that will also harm the childs psyche.
I have read plenty about utero and birth experiences playing a role in a childs emotional and psychological developemnt (I have an adopted child which lead me to do this) and some of it out there is valid. (my adopted child loves country music and motorcycles -- something his birthmother indulged in during pregnancy) I am going to go on to say that while some of it has some interesting and thought provoking theories some of it is looney.
I am familiar with Body Talk. I'm not impressed.

For those of us who had to have csections or elected to have csections by choice (and those stories I have read here most the moms were pretty informed if they chose a repeat csection) its insulting to say we are misinformed and that our decisions are going to have some lasting emotional impact on our child.

[Lucky Charm]

I think to even suggest that children are damaged emotionally by csections is ludicrous and unfounded
I'm with you on that one.
I cant believe no one else has said anything --
I just found the thread.

Juice, maybe your abandonment issues arent because of the birth itself, but your moms emotional reaction to it. Maybe she kept you emotionally at arms length because of her disappontment in the birth process. I have no idea what i'm saying, i'm kinda grasping at straws. If anything your mom should have the issue of her baby being "ripped from her"......how could you have abandonment issues based on the fact you were born c-section?

I know alot of women who have had csections and their kids dont have abandonment issues. and alot of women who "elect" to have a c-section do so with a lot of thought. I just am not liking at all the way this thread is turning into another way to put women down about their birth experiences. making women feel guilty. Good grief. I am the way i am because of the way i was raised, not because of the way i was born. trust me, this board is full of women with serious issues, and plenty of them were born vaginally.

[Greaseball]

Who's to say that early experience doesn't matter? If a child's first experience is pain and discomfort, who is to say that child won't be affected? Of course, the rest of its life matters too, but I don't think that means it's OK to give it a crappy birth experience.

Some women truly need surgical intervention, but there are also a lot of women who plan it unnecessarily. These include women who are having their first baby and just don't want to deal with a vaginal birth. I think if one really needs a surgical delivery, it should be made as painless as possible for the baby. The baby should not be born before it is ready. It should be able to experience some labor first. It should be gently lifted out and given to the mother and allowed to nurse and fully room-in. The father should be able to be present completely, even if general anesthesia is to be used. The surgeons should actively communicate with the mother instead of talking about sports. What hospital in the world would ever do all this for one little baby?

I am planning a home birth because I think it will be best for the baby. It's quite inconvenient for me, but this is not my birth. I know what people mean when they say that lately no one thinks of the baby. In the latest Mothering, Peggy O'Mara talks about an article she read on the new "walking" epidurals, and she says the word "baby" is never mentioned. It's only the mother the article focuses on, as if it's somehow her experience alone.

[OnTheFence]

First I want to make some comments. It is very rare for a first mother to plan an elective csection. The few I know that did plan them were for medical reasons, valid ones. While I agree that with csection rate of 25% is high and that there are unnecessary ones being done, about half of those are necessary medically. (I believe the WHO says ours should be around 9-10% -- dont quote me on that)

Also, some of us do plan our csections, and while I will agree that idealisticly we should wait to go into labor -- for some of this would be the wrong path to take for medical and emotional reasons. I know that for me, emotionally, my last csection needed to be planned. To achieve the birth and experience I needed for me and my baby I needed a Date. I can assure you, he wasn't ripped from my womb and man handled into the horrify world of the surgery room. :rolleyes:

I saw my baby being born, he was brought into the world beautifully, he was on my chest right aftrewards, and he was at my breast 15 minutes after he was born. No trauma, no pain and we roomed in. And my doctor didnt talk about sports -- we talked about commercials and Monsters Inc. and my deformed uterus. I was actually laughing on the surgery table. Yes, laughing. No one was disrespectufl of my wishes or my plan. In fact it was wonderful! :love

I think its condescending to say "what hospital would do this for one little baby". Well the one I went to did. And it is happening in hospitals all over the US. I believe it is ideal to birth your baby at home but shit happens, real human beings with feelings and medical problems, or even normal human beings with no medical problems -- have and continue to achieve the birth they want in hospitals. (my friend did this week! and she elected to go to have her baby in a hospital after a beautiful UC at home)

I will agree focus needs to be put on baby, but not all of it. Happy mommas are key. I think focus should be put on them, their experience, their feelings. They should be educated and not bullied to do it the ACOG way or the natural childbirth granola hippie way either. For some of us, there is a middle ground -- one we are comfortable one, one we feel is right for us.

[Greaseball]

I think its condescending to say "what hospital would do this for one little baby". Well the one I went to did. And it is happening in hospitals all over the US.

I know of no hospital that will allow a father to be present while the mother is asleep. If yours was that way, or if you know of any that are, that is good. That's one rule that needs to be scrapped! It was made to serve only the hospital and not the patients. That and the one that says lesbian partners aren't allowed in even if the mother is awake.:( I don't think I'm wrong to say that most hospital procedures are done for the good of the institution and not the mother or baby.

I think some women who plan c/s have been told their reason is medical when it really isn't. "Small pelvis," "large baby," etc. And I personally know women who have done it because their husbands were going to be on a business trip on the due date.:( It seems everywhere I go where there are a lot of pregnant women (other than here!) they are all talking about just going for surgery because "it's so much easier and safer." And of course there are all those articles coming out on how vaginal birth causes fetal trauma and urinary incontinence and how cesareans are always the safest way for any baby. ACOG decided it was ethical for doctors to perform cesareans for non-medical reasons. (There is a thread in Activism about this.)

I think a lot of injuries that happen to c/s moms and babies come from the doctors not paying attention during surgery. One book suggests that doctors need to detach themselves as much as possible to get over the fact that they are cutting open a human being, so that's why they talk about sports and food with each other. But that's good they actually talked to you!

Another thing that would be good is letting other children be present. Make it a truly family-centered birth! And, more support for the mother afterward; support that doesn't consist of "Get your lazy ass out of that bed; you're not dead!" Is a mother really ready to leave after 72 hours? That seems very short.

[Lucysmama]

It's very easy to judge a mother for having an unnecessary cesarean if you have never had one before. One might think , "Well, if you would have educated yourself..." or "I would never let them do that!" but unless you have experienced it first-hand(and in most cases not even then), I really don't think you are in any position to assume that these women are uneducated, wilting violets, pushovers, or similarly flawed.

I could go into lengthy detail about why I ended up with a cesarean although I was:
a)educated - having read all the right books and spoken with educated natural/home/experienced birthers
b)vocal about not having interventions
c)an advocate for myself and the baby's well-being to the full extent of my abilities both before and after labor and birth

I don't think anyone is arguing here that there aren't unneccesary elective surgeries done, or that the cesarean rate isn't appallingly high. The point that I, and many other posters made was that despite what the OP stated, many women *here at MDC* are very educated, don't take surgery lightly, and undergo it with good cause. They should not then be subject to such labels as "misinformed" because they have surgical births.

I absolutely believe that birth experiences (how we ourselves were birthed.) can effect us in the long-run. Check out the book Ghosts From the Nursery for a lot of research and detail on this. Their tiny brains are firing synapses - the first maps in their brains! If those are maps of pain and discomfort - which is not restricted to cesarean birthing; it can also happen during vaginal birthing - those will be the first recorded cranial experiences. No doubt these are not superfluous thoughts and sensations.

However, this is NOT the only aspect for women, doctors, and partners to be concerned with. While it is ideal for children to be brought into the world in a calm, peaceful manner - it is not always feasible. Yes, Greaseball - it would be nice, and I'm sure we can all agree it is something to strive for - but there are birth emergencies where lives are at stake and children will be born with an air of urgency, nervousness, and rush. Such is a small price to pay for the health and well-being of mother and child. When you say, Greaseball, that the baby should be able to experience labor, I assume you understand that this is not always a possiblity?

OnTheFence - congratulations on your positive cesarean birthing story! They are few and far between, and I commend you for taking an active role in the birth, and for your obvious dedication to achieving a good birth for you and your baby. :thumb

[applejuice]

Originally posted by Juice23


For my entire life, I have been suffering from abandonment issues. .... Physical scars heal, but mental and emotional scars last a lifetime.

This is a little :OT, but relevant nevertheless.

There was a study done in Scandinavia by Dr. Bertil Jacobsen which followed the babies of traumatic births and found a relationship between suicide, the method of suicide and the way the child was born. E.g., if a baby is born through a forceps delivery, and the child grows up with 'problems', suicide through a mechanical means ...

[applejuice]

I am five feet tall. I weighed 109 pounds before I first became pregnant at the age of 25. I worked out and took good care of myself. I had all of my four children at home.

When I went to a mommy'n'me group with my children, I was often the ONLY woman who did NOT have a Caesarean Section. I NEVER told ANYONE there that I had a home birth because the attitude was that anyone who would do that is crazy and dumb.

I went for other reasons so I kept my mouth shut.

That was 23 years ago in Los Angeles, CA. Land of fruits and nuts. I truly think things have become even worse. Doctors who should not be in Obstetrics are there for the $ and to save time and make more $ they practice defensive medicine.

I always as a CCE told my clients to go to a midwife first, and if they needed a hospital and obstetrician, then go, but otherwise, you are not sick, so why go where there are sick people?

[Lucky Charm]

Applejuice, are you suggesting, that based on a Scandinavian study, that my second child, born using forceps is at increased risk of suicide or "problems"?? Are we to put all our eggs in one freaking scandinavian basket? And is this man some sort of authority? It seems like alot of american studies (on whatever, its just an example) are routinely dismissed, and yet you just put out there a few sentences that stopped me cold, based on what one man said.

Of course, you are certainly within your right to say what you believe, especially since you have no idea who i am, or anyone else is who might be lurking around. I guess I am thinking you believe this study has some merit, or else you wouldnt have said it or quoted the author. Why would you post it, knowing it could upset a mom (like me) who has had a forceps delivery? I mean, my son is now 13 for gods sake, and not a whole lot i could do about it. except feel a bit of fear because of a few sentences you felt had to be said.

Lisa

[Greaseball]

When you say, Greaseball, that the baby should be able to experience labor, I assume you understand that this is not always a possiblity?

Of course. Emergency cesareans are a different story altogether. I hope the mother's comfort is considered, though. Open Season has stories from women who were operated on without anesthesia during their emergency c's.:(

[Lucysmama]

Originally posted by Greaseball
Of course. Emergency cesareans are a different story altogether. I hope the mother's comfort is considered, though. Open Season has stories from women who were operated on without anesthesia during their emergency c's.:(

Which I would gladly go through if it was a true emergency and my baby's life was on the line.

[OnTheFence]

I am going to comment some more, of course! :wave

I will share a little about my first csection that was necessary. It ended up as an emergency but I had unluckily had the cath in my back for an epidural or spinal when the dire need arose to cut me and get my baby out. They gave me a spinal, wheeled me in and began to cut. I could barely breathe. The medication had gone too high into my chest and unfortunately did not affect my abdomen at all. So I felt the whole thing. I was screaming for them to knock me the F out. I called them every name in the book. I have been told they never heard such vulgar hateful things come out of a woman before. They couldn't knock me out due to it going to high in my chest and it affecting my airway. Lovely. So they kept injecting demoral into my IV during the suturing stage. (which seemed like forever) My husband got into a fight when they hit 150milligrams of demerol with the Anest. I got a total of 250 in less than 45 minutes. I heard one of the doctors say "we are going to keep drugging her until she stops screaming" Then they gave me amnesia medication. Too bad it didnt work. I would love to have forgotten what happen in that surgery room. Instead I spent the next 12 hours in a drugged stupor, not remembering my daughter or the first time I nursed.

When I did become fully aware of all that happened in that room - I felt like I was a story in Silent Knife. I wanted to die. I spent the next 9 months having PPD, nightmares, and recovering from a 1hour and 15 minute surgery to deliver my baby. There were many reasons this nightmare happened -- part of what happen is from choices I made, and having a doctor that was green and not experienced with the type of uterine deformity I had, and a guy who in a rush did the dosing of my spinal wrong.

You can probably understand why I needed to plan my next csection. I wasn't willing to change going into labor and getting shit on again by unskilled professionals. Especially since all through my last pregnancy I dreamed they did my csection on top of a concrete slab in the cemetery near my family plot. :bolt

And my last experience was wonderful. I would do it again and again. I was in the OR 30 minutes. I was in no pain. I had my mental faculties. My last csection was a breeze. It wasnt a horror story, it wasnt a Silent Knife story -- it was the closest thing I was ever going to get in my idealist world.

[Greaseball]

Right now I say I'd go for it, but if I were truly there I doubt I could make myself do it. I believe in putting oneself through extreme suffering to save a child's life, but I don't know how I could make myself do it...the women in the book were strapped down. One woman successfully sued her doctor. The nurses were telling the doctor that the patient wasn't under, and the doctor refused to believe them. The anesthesiologist was standing right there, telling everyone that the patient already had enough drugs. The doctor even yelled at the patient to "stop breathing like that!" Finally, after the surgery, the anesthesiologist put her to sleep!

It's a story that makes me cry each time I read it.

[OnTheFence]

Natural childbirth isn't always taking mothers into consideration and they arent always wonderful. I have read enough of these forums like mothering and on AOL, not to mention books that describe some pretty horrific horrible vaginal births, natural ones at home too. Traumatic for mom and baby. It can happen in any scenario. I am not anti-epidural for this reason. (I wouldnt say I am pro epi either for the record)

Also in emergency situations mom isnt always considered, its thinking -- lets get this baby out before it dies. One of my dearest friends had a necessary csection three months ago. She had planned a natural childbirth. When her water broke we were so happy, she wanted to wait to go to the hospital, her husband insisted they go to the hospital. So they went. We chatted on the phone after she got there. The next call I got I was floored. My friend had an emergency csection. She had a footling breech baby, the heel coming out of a partially dilated cervix and then with some contractions while they were preparing her for a regular csection she got a prolapse cord. She was knocked out cold and cut. When she woke up she didnt even realize she had had the baby.
:crying But her baby is alive! and that in the end is what is important.

[OnTheFence]

Greaseball from what I was told they had to bring in additional people to hold down my legs. My arms were strapped down. One nurse told my sister that the other laboring patients could hear me screaming and cussing. The whole time I was screaming I could feel them and I was in paid. One of the doctors kept asking me are you sure its pain? I said "F-ing bastard, I feel your GD hands in my body pushing my damn guts back in". I was hacked up. I would do it again to have my daughter but there was a reason my second child was adopted and we didnt pursue infertility treatment.

[Greaseball]

Didn't they even try to put you to sleep? If it was a true emergency I would want to forget all about being awake to see the baby. Maybe even if it was planned, I'd still just rather be asleep. I hear it's much worse to recover from spinal or epidural anesthesia, and that with an epidural you are more likely to feel some of the surgery.

Never had any surgery though, so I wouldn't know.

Glad it worked out for you, though it's too bad it had to hurt.

[OnTheFence]

There is a higher risk of GA than a spinal or epidural during childbirth. Actually more death occurs and other complications. I was never offered to be put to sleep, its not something I would have opted for. Once they administered the spinal, they believe it will only affect from up under your breasts down and it only last for 45minutes to an hour. My spinal did not do right, it moved into my chest and was as high as my shoulders. Because of this I could not be put under and because they remove the cath I was not able to recieve anymore pain relief into my back. Had I had an epidural -- this could have been done. This is why I opted for an epidural the second time around.

My csection truly was an emergency. I already had the cath in my back to administer the spinal when the chit hit the fan or else I would have been knocked out. Which I would have preferred for that csection.

[LisaG]

Wow, passion strikes again here at MDC. In reading the latests posts a lot of thoughts are traveling through my head. I'll do my best to make them coherent :) .

My personal beliefs about pregnancy and birth - what goes on during them can have tremendous impact on the psyche of the infant. Lucysmama mentioned Ghosts in the Nursery. That's an eye opener for sure!

I do believe that vaginal birth is the ideal in a perfect world that supports women's connection to their bodies, women's knowledge of their bodies, women's wisdom, honors and trusts women's ability to pass through the journey of labor and birth in each women's unique way. In a world that is not complicated by anatomical abnormalities such as funky uteruses or babies with fragile bones, etc. (and yes I do believe the "your pelvis is too small/your baby is too big" line is waaayy overused - how about your doctor/midwife is out of their comfort zone and doesn't know how to help you being used instead?). I believe that c-sections are overused. I believe that a lot doctors are motivated by politics, fear, the almighty clock, attorneys and money. I believe that many mother's fall into the trap of fear that doctor's weave. I believe that women are far more strong, capable and wise than we give ourselves credit for. I believe that there absolutely are times when c-sections are necessary. I believe that there are more unnecessary c-sections than necessary.

I know that I, were I a mother, would want to know beyond a shadow of a doubt that I had made the best possible decisions for my baby and myself regarding pregnancy and birth. I would not want to be told that I "should've" done something different. I would want to be supported for the decisions that I made. And yet. At what point can we honor the decisions we made at the time, with the knowledge we had at the time, respect that, and still hold space for the possibility that we may know something different this time around that would result in making different choices should we be faced with the same situation? And still know that we did the very best we could under whatever circumstances.

It saddens me to no end to hear stories of traumatic births - vaginal OR c-section. To hear of women that are so traumatized by their previous experiences that they would rather not have another child. I personally know women who have been through this. It is tragic to me. It is a crime against women that we should be anything less than fully supported, informed and cared for during this most sacred time of giving birth. And it saddens me that so many women have lost the story of birth. That we have allowed this to happen. That we have given away our power to the shrine of modern medicine. Where is the balance?

Thank goodness there is also the swing of the pendulum to reclaiming our power. To educating ourselves, to connecting to our inner knowing, to aknowledging our fear and feeling beyond it. To integrating the best of western medicine with the wisdom of women. Does that mean only vaginal births will be done? No, of course not. Does that mean c-sections will be done more humanely, with more consciousness of the impact of the event on both mother and child? I hope so, and I am greately encouraged by stories that reflect this. Does this mean vaginal births will be done more humanely, looking at what is important for the mother and child rather than the comfort of the doctor/midwife? I hope so, and again am encouraged by stories that reflect this.

In regards to the Scandinavian study. I think it is extremely important that we realize that it was not limited to c-section babies and is not saying there's an increase in suicide among c-section babies. The method of suicide is what's being looked at not the likelihood of suicide. I'm sure we all know vaginally birthed people who committed suicide. Let's not create another guilt wagon for people to get on over their births.

And last, but certainly not least, I'd like to comment on Juice23's original post. While I certainly cannot speak for her, I have had the privledge of discussing this topic at length with her because we are personal friends. In her situation, her mother was induced because it was assumed she was post-date, when it showed after the fact that the doctors were grossly wrong in that assumption. A failed induction led to a c-section with general anesthesia which meant that there was no contact between mother and daughter for hours. Do I believe that being forced from your home, from all that you'd known for 8 1/2 months, "welcomed" into a cold brightly lit world by strangers, whom however kind and nice could not possibly be any replacement for your mother, and left by yourself for hours did not have an impact on how you perceived the world? Please tell me how it could NOT. Do I believe there's a way to integrate and move forward with this experience? Absolutely. As with any traumatic experience that we have in life. But how can you say that other experiences of an infant such as circumcision, illness, crying it out, etc., etc., can be traumatic (and research shows these have a negative effect on the chemical cocktail of our bodies that has an impact on the wiring of our brains) and say that our births don't have this impact?!

No, we don't all get our "ideal" births - for a variety of reasons, no matter how educated, prepared, healthy, strong, etc. The outcome of our births is only partially in our hands. And the more I think about all the outside influences on women's births, the more my head spins. But aknowledging the impact of our births on ourselves and our children can go a long way towards healing and mending the bumps in the road.

I don't understand why we tend to buy more into doctor fear than into other women's experiences. I don't understand why women elect to have c-sections out of schedule convenience or out of fear of saggy vaginas. The hoopla of elective c-sections as a valid option for non-medical reasons really astonishes me. Having recovered from abdominal, uterine surgery recently I can only imagine the additional challenges being post-partum and trying to be present for my infant would have posed to my recovery. It was challenging enough as it was.

Afterwards my surgeon said I absolutely must have a c-section. Well, you can bet for a number of reasons I did my own research. Funny thing is, for all the women who've had my surgery (and granted, it fortunately isn't all that common) for those who were "allowed" to birth vaginally, there are no documented uterine ruptures. Now explain to me why physician "theory" outweighs documented, scientific real life experience? Explain to me why my doc is willing to have my undergo, yet again, major abdominal surgery, that will only put me at increased risk for uterine rupture? So yes, I'm extremely skeptical of doctor's advice. I had an awesome surgeon, he did a fabulous job, I am incredibly grateful to have found him. But in the end, my birth choices will not be made based on his recommendation.

I guess that's what I wish for all women - take in your doctor's information, get other opinions, read, read, read, talk to other women, learn from their experiences and then when it's all said and done go inside, get quiet with yourself and discover what your truth is. Obviously that's not something that's as possible in an emergency situation. But hopefully we'll have made that connection along the way before an emergency arises.

I know I've written a book, so will try to sum up. Whether our children enter the world vaginally or via c-section may it be done respectfully, may the sacredness of birth be honored, may fear be aknowledged but not overblown, may we aknowledge the impact of our choices on ourselves and our children, and may women take back their births.

peace,
LisaG

[Lucysmama]

Well put, LisaG :clap

I don't know if this was a rhetorical question or not, but you asked why women tend to buy more into doctor fear than other women's experiences. An excellent question.

In my situation, it was so very difficult to see thtough the bullsh*t that the doctor was piling on top of me. Doctors know how to play into a laboring woman's inherent vunerability and use that to their advantage. In my case it was, "We can section you now or wait until it is a true emergency and your baby's life is at stake." I was paralyzed by those words...most mothers would be. Nobody should ever speak to a laboring woman in such a manner! I was so paralyzed, in fact - I couldn't even stop to consider if what he was saying was inevitable and true. I didn't realize that the baby showed no signs of distress, that I was absolutely fine, if naturally tired.

Then came another blow: "If you were my daughter, I would section you for your safety and your baby's safety."

I was educated, informed, no shrinking violet, but when a doctor starts playing that card- the whole, "We-are-going-to-save-you-or-your-baby-will-die-and-it-will-be-your-fault" card, it is *so* hard to remember all you have learned about birthing, labor, cesareans. You are being threatened with a dead child.

Tragic? Yes. Manipulative? Yes. Uncommon? No. * But that does not mean that these women are uneducated or uninformed. It means they are human, and reacted emotionally to the threats of bullies. * Unless you have been in this situation before, I really feel you can't know what I am talking about. It is a long, guilt-ridden, heavy road to walk. I might have been bullied, but I was never misinformed about cesarean, birthing, hospital beaurocracy, etc. I'm not perfect, and I don't deserve to be judged for that.

LisaG, I agree with most everything that you said. I don't know about other posters, but I was never trying to impune or dispute the OP's issues surrrounding birth. Again, I think why this thread took off heatedly is due to the overgeneralization of we MDC c/sec birthers as misinformed.



Juice, I hope you can come to terms with your experiences someday. :rainbow

[Greaseball]

My half-sister was born 3 mos early by c-section. She had to make up those 3 months in the NICU. She did not suffer abandonment issues, and I believe it was because she was never abandoned - her mother insisted on staying in the hospital the entire time, even though she did not need any more treatment. She had a job, and another young child, but stayed anyway.

I think the kind of care the mother is able to provide is a factor. If I am in pain and exhausted and afraid my guts are going to spill out, I'm not going to be as effective. I think all moms should have help available if they decide they need it. Some moms feel fine after a few days post surgery, but some are in pain for a long time and have no support.

[LisaG]

Doctors know how to play into a laboring woman's inherent vunerability and use that to their advantage. In my case it was, "We can section you now or wait until it is a true emergency and your baby's life is at stake." I was paralyzed by those words...most mothers would be. Nobody should ever speak to a laboring woman in such a manner! I was so paralyzed, in fact - I couldn't even stop to consider if what he was saying was inevitable and true. I didn't realize that the baby showed no signs of distress, that I was absolutely fine, if naturally tired.

Absolutely!!!!! I think it would be next to immpossible to hear words like that and find the strength/courage/ability to swim against that tide. It goes against our very nature to be told we/our baby are at risk, here's what you MUST do, and find the state of mind to stay calm and ask questions in the middle of labor no less?!?! Which has led me to my personal conclusion that labor and birth is usually best done OUT of the hospital :D, with someone (even if that's only yourself - if that's what works for you) who is really comfortable being with a laboring woman. I think it's really a rare find to have a hospital and doctor who can truly support labor and birth in its multifaceted form.

For me, the uneducated and uninformed piece seems to jump out at me more in the case of elected repeat c/s or in elected non-emergency first c/s (like in the case of a certain celebrity who planned on having an elected c/s because it would be too inconvenient for her husband's work schedule :scratch ). I know I'm not willing to undergo that trauma to my body for my husband's schedule! And yet somehow that all gets overlooked as long as the baby arrives in one piece.

Uneducated/uninformed certainly aren't always the right words. More often than not, it's lack of support and scared into by fear spouting docs. Or scared into by previous experience. I can't begin to imagine (and hope I don't ever have to) the courage it would take to be willing to attempt a VBAC after a traumatic birth. To be willing to trust the process again. And I can certainly understand women choosing to make the best of a repeat c/s rather than journeying the unknown of a VBAC. But it does sadden me that there's so much fear and so little support surrounding most birthing women.

Here's to changing that one birth at a time!

LisaG

[OnTheFence]

Lisa G great posting. Are you on the Mullerian Anomalies Group on yahoo? If so, I am there in lurkdom.

Kim

[LisaG]

Hi Kim :wave ,

The mullerian anomaly group was a total life-saver for me this spring/summer when I was first diagnosed :). Thank goodness for that group! I stop by on occasion to catch up, but there's so many groups, so little time these days :( .

Take care,
LisaG