Is there a tribe for people who tend to alienate others?

[Miss Information]

I don't know how to keep female friendships going for longer than a few years before I do something boneheaded to make them mad at me.

Even relationships with my sisters and mother are often strained. I usually am pretty okay with it, but sometimes it truly is stinky. I do get lonely with just me and my kids and my husband.

I try not to sit in judgment of others, but if I think there is another perspective (usually an AP, gentle discipline, natural health alternative kind of things lately), I will offer it. I tend to be a bit of an intellectual (not really doing much atm other than reading a lot and thinking about lots of different things), though I don't go around spouting out about the things I think about too much. Nobody would really care.

I've got pretty high standards for myself, but really, I'm easygoing on others. I do not act superior at all. I do look into the heart of a person and can usually make friends with certain people quite easily (keeping them going over the years is much, much harder). The only long-term friends I really have are men. I have 5 male friends I've been friends with. One is 24 years, one is 20 years, one is 10 years strong. Not bad, I think.

The only rule I have with regards to relationships (friend or family of origin)is: don't ever attack me or my kin, particularly without provocation. I will not sit quietly by without defending my own. But apparently, even though I think I have well thought-out POV, dh tends to think I am harsher and less accommodating when I feel attacked. It could be, all those years of being emotionally abused by my mother and two of my sisters could have a lot to do with it.

I've always tried to go for what I think are logical responses to things. And I tend to analyze way too much, but I also really am highly sensitive too. Yet at the same time, I have to be right. This having to be right may have cost me some friendships.

Sigh. So, is there a thread for women like this? Or something similar?

[MusicianDad]

If you get that tribe can I join? I know I'm a guy and all, and I do have some close friends, but a majority of people can only take me in small doses for the very same reasons you stated. The only difference is, it's not just me and my kin I'll defend. If anyone gets attacked, even verbally, particularly without provocation, I will come down on you hard. "I don't agree with what you say, I will defend to the death your right to say it." is how I live my life. Even people who are attacked for voicing an opinion that goes against everything I believe, will end up with me defending their right to say it. That tends to be the end all for most of the friends who decide to cut me out, because I won't let them verbally attack someone who thinks different then them. Now if it's a regular debate and going well and no name calling or personal insults, that's fine. But as soon as you start getting nasty with someone, watch out cause I will call you on it.

I've been labelled the official stirrer of sh** with some people I talk to regularly because of it.

I have also been referred to as a know it all. I don't try and I don't really think I know it all, but if I do know something is wrong or not quite accurate then I find it nearly impossible to keep quiet.

I'm not overly sensetive though, but I have been discribed as empathic. Which never made sense to me but oh well.

[Miss Information]

Musician dad -
Sure you can. I think I will change my title to be more inclusive of everyone.

I remember you from another forum. I've always liked the way you think.

Yes, empathetic is how I view myself too. That being said, I have a very strong sense of justice and it gets me into trouble. While I'm fairly smart, I'm not that able to see when I've crossed the line from being logical to being rude. Most people don't want to be wrong (heck, not even me). I could be right on every point I've made, but as my dh has told me, he perceives it as being personally attacked. Yet, I only see it as being logical.

You know, I really, really like the character of Sheldon on the Big Bang Theory. He was never apologetic for his need to be right. But he also didn't care either if people didn't like him for it either.

When I worked (in forensics and then medical genetics), I had a lot more opportunity to relate to others. I had a lot of opportunities for practicing being tactful, I think. Now that I'm a SAHP, I am down to a mere few. And the mere few is suddenly disappearing.

Sigh. I was warned I shouldn't have quit my career. But I was weak. I just couldn't maintain a full time career and be gone 11 hours a day from my little ones. Now I just don't have that many people to really interact with, and definitely not on the level I need. And I managed to alienate one and possibly another (who is a mutual friend of the one).

Anyway, "thanks for stopping by (and stay classy San Diego)" *. Hopefully others will wanna join too.

*****

Anyone know what movie that's a quote from? 10 points if you know the answer.

[MusicianDad]

Yay! Thank you! And I promise I won't get mad if you call me on my crap. :)

[MusicianDad]

Oh, and my puns don't help me make friends either.

[Miss Information]

Oh, and my puns don't help me make friends either.

Did you know there are many different pun formats? You probably did, but for others reading...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pun

Formats for punning
* Bilingual pun
* Daffynition
* Feghoot
* Knock-knock joke
* Malapropism
* Shaggy dog story
* Spoonerism
* Tom Swifty
* Transpositional pun

I'm so stinkin' bored, lonely and starved for intellectual stimulation I'm off on a diversion on Wiki reading all about the different types of puns.

I'm a lover of humor, so have pun all you want!

I love self-referential statements:

This sentence has no period


I love language. I love word play. "I love lamp" (10 points for knowing what movie this is from - hint: it's the same movie as the one above).

"I palindrome I" (10 points for knowing who sang this song).

I haven't been this silly in a long time. So thanks my friend.:joy:

[DreamsInDigital]

I'm really bad at tact. I tend to drive people away IRL because I say things before I think about how they might be heard by others. Most people think I'm really weird. I just don't have a brain to mouth filter. The other day my neighbor asked to borrow the phone. I said sure and happily handed it over. Later he brought it back and without thinking I said "So when are you getting your phone turned back on?" He looked at me oddly for a second and replied that he didn't know, times were tough at the moment and he just needed to call his mom to ask for help with his electric bill.
It wasn't until MUCH later that I realized he might have thought I was annoyed at his borrowing my phone. I really, truly was happy to help my neighbor and felt absolutely no irritation at his use of the phone. I was really just wondering if they were going to have to live without a phone for a while and instead I came off sounding like a big ol' meanie.

Just one prime example. Way to go! :thumb :lol

[MusicianDad]

"I love lamp" is from Anchorman isn't it?

"I palindrome I" is by They Might Be Giants.

Here's a gramatically correct sentense for you

"Colourless green ideas sleep furiously."

Other interesting sentencest:

"The quick brown fox jumps over the lazy dog."

and the same type in French:

"Voix ambiguë d'un cœur qui au zéphyr préfère les jattes de kiwis."

I love palindromes too:

What palindrome did Adam use to introduce himself to Eve?
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.

"Madam, I'm Adam"

[MusicianDad]

I'm really bad at tact. I tend to drive people away IRL because I say things before I think about how they might be heard by others. Most people think I'm really weird. I just don't have a brain to mouth filter. The other day my neighbor asked to borrow the phone. I said sure and happily handed it over. Later he brought it back and without thinking I said "So when are you getting your phone turned back on?" He looked at me oddly for a second and replied that he didn't know, times were tough at the moment and he just needed to call his mom to ask for help with his electric bill.
It wasn't until MUCH later that I realized he might have thought I was annoyed at his borrowing my phone. I really, truly was happy to help my neighbor and felt absolutely no irritation at his use of the phone. I was really just wondering if they were going to have to live without a phone for a while and instead I came off sounding like a big ol' meanie.

Just one prime example. Way to go! :thumb :lol

Maybe your neighbour has a difficult time understand some body language associated with curiosity.

I've had that happen before, but it happens when I fail to express my meaning physically as well as verbally so they miss read what I'm trying to say.

[annettemarie]

:hug As a focused discussion, this belongs in personal growth, so I am going to move it there.

[TEAK's Mom]

I could wear out the nodding smily here:

overly empathic: Check
too many obscure references: Check
unwilliness to tolerate unkindness: Check
too intellectual: Check
knows the words to old TMBG songs: Check

Yeah. I'll be back.

[Miss Information]

:hug As a focused discussion, this belongs in personal growth, so I am going to move it there.

Um...okay, but I don't understand why? What does focused discussion mean? Did I manage to alienate us from the finding your tribe forum :lol? I guess I don't know the rules of the tribal area.

[annettemarie]

FYT is for discussions not hosted in other areas MDC. based on your OP, this seemed like a topic best hosted in Personal Growth. Feel free to PM me with any other questions. :)

[Miss Information]

Okay, I guess I understand that. Though, being put here this assumes I want to grow and actually make changes to my fundamental nature. I'm not so sure I'm the one that needs to, or even wants to change. I am who I am, and for the most part, I like me, warts and all. I've decided that I'd much rather make friends online and forget real people. Okay, not really. But sort of.



Just was looking for commiseration, I guess. Not so much ideas on how to change, but basically find others who are like me that have trouble in the friendship department because we stand pretty strong on certain values/beliefs etc.

[annettemarie]

OK, I couldn't sleep because I was stressed out over this. I'm going to go ahead and move you back to FYT. Sorry for any inconvenience.

[annettemarie]

OK, you're back. Have a great night!

[MusicianDad]

OK, I couldn't sleep because I was stressed out over this. I'm going to go ahead and move you back to FYT. Sorry for any inconvenience.
Thanks, we do appreciate it. :)

[mystic~mama]

hi there~ i read the posts and i feel like i relate in the sense that i don't easily make friends...I think maybe I purposely alienate myself...I am introverted and dont need to be around people all the much...I do have some need and feel more confident socially but also tend to shy away and want my own space...I have no idea if this fits this tribe or not and I feel like i am blabbing now...

[MusicianDad]

I think it probably fits. Others definatly tend to stay away from people who need their own space regularly. It's not a bad thing, but it's something your friends really have to understand really want to stick around. Apparently because humans are social creatures, we're supposed to want to be social all the time. :rolleyes

[EXOLAX]

Me! Me! Me! Can I join?

I saw this thread and said to myself "Oh yea...". Interestingly enough I recognize some of the posters here and I only visit a few forums.

Apparently I alienate people without even trying. I have learned that my personality type is in direct opposition to some others. I am direct, with a dry, sarcastic sense of humor. I do not handle overt exclusionary behavior well and I have a strong reaction to statements of judgment stated as fact. I love to discuss, research, debate. I do not have social phobias of any kind and have been know to strike up conversations with complete strangers. Many times I am accused of being argumentative because I ask "why, how, or what information do you have to back that up?" kind of statements. I am a critical thinker and a skeptic. I have been told that I am intimidating and mom-friends (YK, the relationship based solely around the kids) tell me they don't like to discuss things with me because I have too much information on different subjects. :eyesroll It's pretty much a given that if someone is passive-aggressive we won't get along, if they also happen to be a judgmental or insecure mother then it seems I will most likely become their nemesis. (We're back on the playground here....)

Can I join? DH and I have a few close friends who all happen to be similar in personality to us, some with even less social grace. ;) I long for the day I meet another mom who doesn't assume my knowledge on any subject isn't a judgment against their choices.

[MusicianDad]

Miss Information, can Xeloxe join? Please!?

I tend to be very anti-social because I find people who consider me knowing things to be a bad thing to be, well, a bad thing. I don't think less of someone because they aren't the studious type, but when they judge ME for doing lots of research about just about anything I have a hard time being nice to or even wanting to talk to them.

[milkybean]

I think it probably fits. Others definatly tend to stay away from people who need their own space regularly. It's not a bad thing, but it's something your friends really have to understand really want to stick around. Apparently because humans are social creatures, we're supposed to want to be social all the time. :rolleyes

omg YES!


I have a hard time thinking that I alienate people, but I've lost two friends (very definite *end of friendships* with letters/emails sent to me detailing that they didn't want to know me anymore) from "real life". The second friend took a whole group of people with her. Although the first end-of-friendship had to do with other issues, the second friendship end was very much based on my needing to take time *away* for *me*. On MY end I just needed some time to regroup, not get into dramas, let the group all talk about epidurals and baby-related surgeries (when they KNEW my story and KNEW that I had serious issues with those subjects, and in fact those people were a part of what got me through the dark times from those subjects) without my seeing them (so I would stay in my own journal and not go "visiting" where conversations would be free-flowing, and I avoided parties and meet-ups). To them they just thought I was ditching them, judging them, ignoring them, and mostly, to the friend who took everyone away from me, not "being there" for her when she "needed" me.

She thought I should medicate myself instead of taking time away from stressors, and getting out of the house for some fresh air and sunlight and walks, and focusing on my family. That's what she had done, so she thought I should do the same (and yes, she said this).


So I figured that there are those I alienate.

But I also have a strong core of forever-friends. They met me, got to know me, and liked me, and they have stuck. I can go years without speaking to some friends, but if we see each other or someone sends an internet joke or there's a reunion, we're there for each other. These people know the real me and like the real me, so even if sometimes what I say comes out wrong (like the one time I told ALL my reasons for wanting to homeschool, went a bit too far, and too-late remembered that my friend's husband is a teacher, whoopsie!) they know I mean no harm and continue on (after I apologize).

[Miss Information]

Me! Me! Me! Can I join?
I saw this thread and said to myself "Oh yea...". Interestingly enough I recognize some of the posters here and I only visit a few forums.

Apparently I alienate people without even trying. I have learned that my personality type is in direct opposition to some others. I am direct, with a dry, sarcastic sense of humor. I do not handle overt exclusionary behavior well and I have a strong reaction to statements of judgment stated as fact. I love to discuss, research, debate. I do not have social phobias of any kind and have been know to strike up conversations with complete strangers. Many times I am accused of being argumentative because I ask "why, how, or what information do you have to back that up?" kind of statements. I am a critical thinker and a skeptic. I have been told that I am intimidating and mom-friends (YK, the relationship based solely around the kids) tell me they don't like to discuss things with me because I have too much information on different subjects. :eyesroll It's pretty much a given that if someone is passive-aggressive we won't get along, if they also happen to be a judgmental or insecure mother then it seems I will most likely become their nemesis. (We're back on the playground here....)

Can I join? DH and I have a few close friends who all happen to be similar in personality to us, some with even less social grace. ;) I long for the day I meet another mom who doesn't assume my knowledge on any subject isn't a judgment against their choices.

Oh, yeah definitely!!!!!

You sound a lot like me, actually. I don't know about you though, but I do feel very hurt when a friendship goes sour because of some really fundamental differences (like parenting style differences in this last instance).

I research quite a bit and try to share some of what I know. But, at the same time, I've come to realize that there are some people who don't want to try on a new way of doing things.

They'd rather, in fact, stick to the "old ways" (the outdated, the unsupported or outright provent to be bad for you) and will blindly trust their doctor, their mother/father, their siblings, their other friends (because it worked for them, of course) or anyone else without actually discovering that really, the old ways really aren't always the best ways.

Now, in some cases the old ways are better (like eating unprocessed foods, like using natural remedies first, letting the body build up natural defenses before rushing for the antibiotics at the first sign of a sniffle). But, generally when new information proves to be better, then I'm going with the new information.

Oh, and that being said, I am sensitive to personal choices such as breastfeeding/formula feeding (I could only partially bf my first two do to low milk supply and having to return to work because dh was laid off). I do what I can to inform, but if someone decides they don't want to bf, I back off of it. But I do know that I was really intense for a while when my SIL wanted to try bf, and she was having difficulties. I sent her a whole slew of information, but in the end, she felt I was overwhelming her with tips, and it really came down to the fact that it was really too hard for her not to be able to schedule her infant. She snapped at me and said she'd figure it out on her own, and then she ended up formula feeding after 2 months.

But it's precisely the reason that I ended up being too intense for her and for my sister that I decided I'm not ever going to want to be an IBCLC. I was only trying to help, and I got snapped at for it by both of them over different things.

It's the same thing with regards to parenting. Many people just want to spank or use time out. I have found first hand that it doesn't work with my highly sensitive dd2 (and I tried both), then researched the heck out of why it doesn't work for some children like her. So I don't do them. I try to set up the kids for success in the first place so that I don't have to. It's a work in progress though, because at 5, my sensitive dd still needs to be worked closely with.

It is so surprising how little people really want to be enlightened.

[Miss Information]

omg YES!


I have a hard time thinking that I alienate people, but I've lost two friends (very definite *end of friendships* with letters/emails sent to me detailing that they didn't want to know me anymore) from "real life". The second friend took a whole group of people with her. Although the first end-of-friendship had to do with other issues, the second friendship end was very much based on my needing to take time *away* for *me*. On MY end I just needed some time to regroup, not get into dramas, let the group all talk about epidurals and baby-related surgeries (when they KNEW my story and KNEW that I had serious issues with those subjects, and in fact those people were a part of what got me through the dark times from those subjects) without my seeing them (so I would stay in my own journal and not go "visiting" where conversations would be free-flowing, and I avoided parties and meet-ups). To them they just thought I was ditching them, judging them, ignoring them, and mostly, to the friend who took everyone away from me, not "being there" for her when she "needed" me.

She thought I should medicate myself instead of taking time away from stressors, and getting out of the house for some fresh air and sunlight and walks, and focusing on my family. That's what she had done, so she thought I should do the same (and yes, she said this).


So I figured that there are those I alienate.

But I also have a strong core of forever-friends. They met me, got to know me, and liked me, and they have stuck. I can go years without speaking to some friends, but if we see each other or someone sends an internet joke or there's a reunion, we're there for each other. These people know the real me and like the real me, so even if sometimes what I say comes out wrong (like the one time I told ALL my reasons for wanting to homeschool, went a bit too far, and too-late remembered that my friend's husband is a teacher, whoopsie!) they know I mean no harm and continue on (after I apologize).

That was really unfair to lose a whole group of friends because of that one friend. I can say group dynamics can be very tricky to navigate, particularly if the members are sticking to the decisions of one person, rather than coming out independently to find out what is really going on.

I do understand how you can still have a core group of people that you manage not to alienate. I have very 3 long standing friends. The secret to our success? They are married males, and not prone to hurt feelings. They have their families, but we do get to chat at least twice a month on the phone. But at the same time, we just don't discuss things like breastfeeding, child discipline, etc. There's no comparison going on between what my kids are doing and what their kids are doing (mostly because only one of them has children my kids age).

I do much better with friends who are older than me as well. I'm 38, but I have a friend who is 43, whose son is my dd1s age. But the great thing about it is that she already has 1 grown up daughter, and so she is much more relaxed about the parenting thing, and isn't into comparisons with other kids.

One thing that losing friends does for me is make me evaluate what's really important to me. If, after I do some introspection, I find that I still stand by my position, then I'm really okay with the loss. I'm not going to back down on my values. Especially when it comes to my kids. Those are things that are not negotiable, even if it costs me a friendship.

[MusicianDad]

I really don't get why somepeople can't be friends with someone who has some big difference of opinions. I can understand something being non-negotiable. But of the friends I have that have stuck with me, there are some big differences we have that we respect in each other because there are some big sames in there too.

My core group of friends are either really weird by society standars, very gifted, or both. But their the best bunch of friends for me and even if we don't always keep in touch, I still know they will be there for me and they won't ditch me just because I can't shut up about stuff I know or try and find out about stuff I don't know.

I often get accused of trying to cause trouble when all I'm really trying to do is learn. I ask why and the other person thinks I'm judging/questioning their opinion. That gets really frustrating.

[Miss Information]

You know, I've been thinking ever since I started this thread.

Right now, I'm in a season of my life of young children. All of whom are smart, but one of whom who seems even more so, and yet really needs a lot of guidance. It's my middle child who is 5, but who has been tested to have some cognitive abilities as high as an 8.5 year old. Yet, she's behind even my 3.5 year old with regards to social fluency and adaptability with change. She has social anxiety thrown into the mix.

I went to see a social worker to speak with her today about dd2. It was suggested that I try some strategies with her. One of which start doing visual based "social stories". Basically, I have to come up with common scenarios of where we have difficulties with. The social worker helped by printing out some pictures of emotions and objects and things to get me started. This is so that I might have a chance to teach what hasn't come naturally to her. So that maybe she won't react with tantrums and meltdowns when things don't go her way. She was doing much better over the summer, but school starting up again has disrupted the forward growth and we are regressing in a lot of ways.

Relating to people when you have half an idea how to do it is hard work. Trying to teach someone (in this case my emotional 5 year old child) who doesn't know at all how to do it it is EXCEPTIONALLY hard work, especially when you can't focus all your energies on it (because you have other kids, work responsibilities, etc), or if you find yourself frequently failing in your own relationships.

Some days, it's all I can do to get through the day. I sometimes just want to write off other people because I've got too much going on. Sometimes I wish I was strong enough to only need computer interaction to keep me happy. But then, what happens to me, is that I really isolate myself too much and then I'm really depressed. But reaching out doesn't always do much either because no one really knows what it is like. It is like constantly having your nails plucked out slowly one by one when you are dealing with crisis after crisis after crisis (and everything is potentially a crisis to a very emotional child).

Having no one to talk IRL to about how hard this is really, really stinks. The most common advice is to stick the child in school, spank them, stick them in their rooms, get out and do something for yourself (get a job is usually the most common one there). None of which really solves the problem of how to teach an emotional/anxious child how to relate well to other people and deal with disappointment.

This becomes especially hard when you yourself have issues relating to people for whatever reason. In my case, I'd rather walk away from a friendship than do what it takes to make it work. I'd rather be "right" than be forgiving on some things. I still make the excuse that I "had" to "right then" say my peace, almost regardless of the outcome. That's not a very gracious way of living. No matter how tactful I try to be, I tend to come off as judgmental. But I also find that people really don't want to be enlightened. They really don't.

Just about every single day for 2 months I've dealt with issues with dd2. When things are bad, I almost don't mind alienating others with children my kids don't get along with well, because then I don't have to deal with the inevitable complications that ensue (usually toy sharing/friend sharing issues). It's incredibly draining for me to deal with the screaming meltdowns that ensue because something didn't go right with the friends. It's like, if the kids can't all get along, I'd rather not have to deal with the fallout.

The neighbor situation seems to have partially resolved. At least we spoke and hopefully things will be better. But of course, we both will be less open with each other. At least now, we have cleared the air, so we can move forward, and I know that the friend in common hasn't had to choose between the two of us.

I'm not sure what to do for myself. I really wish I had some gifted/"strange by society's standards" type of friends still like I used to. I had some really deep conversations about life in general and some problems in specific that I knew I could always talk over. Those are the kinds of people where if you have a problem, you can wax philosophical over it til 1 am and after all is said and done, realize that even if things aren't fixed, you sure had someone who cared to listen. Those are the kinds of people with whom you can be yourself with, warts and all, and they still accept you as friend. Who actually encourage "To thine own self be true". And still like you for it.

[mystic~mama]

I think it probably fits. Others definatly tend to stay away from people who need their own space regularly. It's not a bad thing, but it's something your friends really have to understand really want to stick around. Apparently because humans are social creatures, we're supposed to want to be social all the time. :rolleyes

wow, great observation, I have never thought of it in this way. I definitely dont want to be social all the time. At times I feel I can be very social and others very unsocial I guess this can be a turn off to perspective friends. I dont care, I am who I am....I dont feel I need to push friendships with anybody I'm just being who I am and the friends I need to meet will cross my path this is what I figure.

[Miss Information]

I just came back to edit my other post but add something different too.

Not only do I realize my potential to alienate other people, but I have advanced kids (one who is probably 2E), so I have to be extremely careful how I phrase things about other parents. I always have to be on my toes and watch what I say, because even now, in first grade, dd is being pulled out for reading enrichment, and in talking with other parents about the kids homework assignments/reading abilities, etc, I notice dd is far different than other kids her age.

I have absolutely no one around who's kids are advanced. I can't talk to anyone about any questions I have without worrying I'm going to alienate them.

It's hard not only to downplay your child's abilities only to make someone else feel better, but to not have anyone to ask when you have real questions.

Partly I don't mind alienating some people, so that I don't have to talk about my kids abilities especially when there are wide differences. I wish I did have parents whose kids did excel, that way I wouldn't be worried about how I come across, and can help guide the way.

[bigeyes]

Oh, and my puns don't help me make friends either.
I love puns. One of my best friends used to trade bad puns with me to make annoying people go away when they were bugging us at work. :lol


To a pp: tact is for weenies. :wink

[Laggie]

DreamsInDigital, I think I have the same problem as you. Actually I seem to have an uncanny knack for picking out the one thing that shouldn't be said... Often managing to seriously insult people or at least pick on their one sensitive spot... and then I don't even realize it until much, much later.

Then I obsess about how I stuck my foot in my mouth. :o

anyway. Can we all be tactless here together? Did you find a cure for that mole/wart/lice/impotence/infertility problem yet? :innocent

[EXOLAX]

I often get accused of trying to cause trouble when all I'm really trying to do is learn. I ask why and the other person thinks I'm judging/questioning their opinion. That gets really frustrating.

I am so into self alienation that 1) I put something in my original post that was against policy and needed to be edited (sorry!) and 2) I changed my name. ;)

MD - I get this way too much for my liking. I've been accused many times on the playground of trying to start arguments. At first it baffled me, but I've established that some people just don't like to be questioned. FTR, when I ask "Why" or "Ok, you read that off the internet. What is this Dr's background and his specialty? Did he have studies cited for reference?" My questions are purely for information gathering purposes. I really want to know the cited studies because I want to read them. I genuinely want to know the Dr's background so I can put it all into perspective. But, I am direct and there are times when I am just too tired to put up the social front and play those little games to make sure everyone else feels good about my questioning.

People have a tendency to interpret the words of others through their own internal filter. It's pretty evident why passive-aggressive people and I don't get along. I can ask a serious, straight forward question and they will assume I too am being passive-aggressive (even w/o any realization that they themselves are). We tend to believe that everyone else thinks like we ourselves do. Many people are constantly looking for the hidden meaning in our words even when there are none, hence the accusations of being argumentative. It's a big tip off for me. That, and I really don't think many people enjoy being questioned. They like to appear to be the ultimate resource on a subject and when forced to say "I don't know" it blows their cover. (FWIW, being afraid to say "I don't know" is a huge pet-peeve of mine.)

All that said, I have chosen to live my life taking everyone at their word (because that's how I communicate). I recently offended another mother at a gathering with a sarcastic comment I made in humor. Now, when my DH heard me tell the story he laughed hysterically. Most of my friends would have found it quite funny but one mom totally did not pick up on the sarcasm and 10 minutes later started playing the passive-aggressive game with me. I immediately knew what was going on but decided to let it go (the mom already had unvoiced issues with me). Then the talk started... mom's started telling me how upset she was with me and she was chatting it up with some mutual friends. The next time I saw her I said "Hey, so I made a comment that was supposed to be funny. I know I have a sarcastic sense of humor but no offense was intended." First off, I could tell how absolutely uncomfortable she was, secondly she informed me that she didn't even know what I talking about and that there were no worries as she was not easily offended. "Great" I said, damage control done, moving on. So, I did my little part, but it doesn't change the fact that she is still offended and I make her even _more_ uncomfortable now. But hey, I can only go off of her word. I'm not willing to put any more effort into. She can say whatever she wants to anyone else but I choose to go off what she says to me. The feeling is mutual anyway.

Saddly, this type of thing happens to me way too often. Once I offended a whole group of mom's because strangers were talking loudly about how annoying the childrens diapers were, seriously (ugh, have I said how much I despise passive-aggressive communication?). I walked right over to them and started chatting with them "Hey, I was hearing how annoyed you are. Let me know what the issue is so I can address it for you.". Of course "there was no issue, the kids were all fine and really cute". But my actions definitely made everyone on both sides very uncomfortable. I honestly believe some people enjoy the drama.

So I do use my own communication style as a basis for interpreting others. I'll be honest with you, and I will assume that you are being honest with me. I don't have any control over your interpretation and have zero intentions on attempting to dissect what people are really trying to say. With that though I have to recognize that each of us has our own internal filter and I have to gauge if effort on my part is worth the relationship.

[EXOLAX]

DreamsInDigital, I think I have the same problem as you. Actually I seem to have an uncanny knack for picking out the one thing that shouldn't be said... Often managing to seriously insult people or at least pick on their one sensitive spot... and then I don't even realize it until much, much later.

Then I obsess about how I stuck my foot in my mouth. :o

anyway. Can we all be tactless here together? Did you find a cure for that mole/wart/lice/impotence/infertility problem yet? :innocent

:yeah:

I'm still working on not getting obsessive about the times I may have inadvertently offended someone. I still get hung up on it, even though I may not even like the people. I am the person though who will call you later and say "Hey, so that's not what I was trying to convey". My friends really like it, other people, well, not so much... see my post above.

And no, we're enjoying the impotence, see the infertility as a statement on our parenting, we're feeding the lice in hopes our dog will the enjoy the protein, we're intentionally spreading the warts because we enjoy the attention they get us, and the moles, well, let them dig up the yard... hopefully it will mean less yard work for us. ;)

[EXOLAX]

:blush Awww shucks!

I wish we were normal, oh how wonderful would the world be if everyone dropped the P-A BS. ;)

I'm laughing right now remembering a time I was at a party in a room filled with people. I don't remember the context but I said "I really don't like people, they annoy me". It stopped all conversations dead in their tracks. Thankfully a friend of mine was there and said "You know, coming from you that makes perfect sense. Not many people could say that at a social gathering and get away with it". I'm not sure that I actually did, but the fact that one person in the room saw the humor (and reality) in it gave me hope. FWIW I'm not an easy person to live with. That's probably why I live with someone else who is sarcastic, direct and anti-P-A. ;)

[Miss Information]

Exolax - I'm quoting parts of what you said. Those parts are bolded.


Many people are constantly looking for the hidden meaning in our words even when there are none


1. I'm going to add that people constantly look for the hidden meaning in or completely misinterpret our facial expressions too. It turns out that the neighbor said she saw me roll my eyes. She interpreted it as being snarky about her son getting into trouble again. But if I did that, and I honestly don't remember that I did, but it would have been for her initial anger, not her son's issues.

2. I have an older sister who chronically makes disgusted facial expressions when I say weird things or have weird beliefs. It can cause a huge defensive posture in me in 3 seconds flat. So I totally get how facial expressions can speak volumes.

I really wish neighbor would have done more explaining. This could have been totally avoided if she would have explained/apologized for snapping at my dd in the first place.

I honestly believe some people enjoy the drama.

Not just enjoy it, but THRIVE on it.


I don't have any control over your interpretation and have zero intentions on attempting to dissect what people are really trying to say. With that though I have to recognize that each of us has our own internal filter and I have to gauge if effort on my part is worth the relationship.

This sounds like really, really good wisdom. Always assume positive intent. It's much less likely to cause negative responses. However, that's easier said than done sometimes.

[MusicianDad]

I am so into self alienation that 1) I put something in my original post that was against policy and needed to be edited (sorry!) and 2) I changed my name. ;)

MD - I get this way too much for my liking. I've been accused many times on the playground of trying to start arguments. At first it baffled me, but I've established that some people just don't like to be questioned. FTR, when I ask "Why" or "Ok, you read that off the internet. What is this Dr's background and his specialty? Did he have studies cited for reference?" My questions are purely for information gathering purposes. I really want to know the cited studies because I want to read them. I genuinely want to know the Dr's background so I can put it all into perspective. But, I am direct and there are times when I am just too tired to put up the social front and play those little games to make sure everyone else feels good about my questioning.

People have a tendency to interpret the words of others through their own internal filter. It's pretty evident why passive-aggressive people and I don't get along. I can ask a serious, straight forward question and they will assume I too am being passive-aggressive (even w/o any realization that they themselves are). We tend to believe that everyone else thinks like we ourselves do. Many people are constantly looking for the hidden meaning in our words even when there are none, hence the accusations of being argumentative. It's a big tip off for me. That, and I really don't think many people enjoy being questioned. They like to appear to be the ultimate resource on a subject and when forced to say "I don't know" it blows their cover. (FWIW, being afraid to say "I don't know" is a huge pet-peeve of mine.)

All that said, I have chosen to live my life taking everyone at their word (because that's how I communicate). I recently offended another mother at a gathering with a sarcastic comment I made in humor. Now, when my DH heard me tell the story he laughed hysterically. Most of my friends would have found it quite funny but one mom totally did not pick up on the sarcasm and 10 minutes later started playing the passive-aggressive game with me. I immediately knew what was going on but decided to let it go (the mom already had unvoiced issues with me). Then the talk started... mom's started telling me how upset she was with me and she was chatting it up with some mutual friends. The next time I saw her I said "Hey, so I made a comment that was supposed to be funny. I know I have a sarcastic sense of humor but no offense was intended." First off, I could tell how absolutely uncomfortable she was, secondly she informed me that she didn't even know what I talking about and that there were no worries as she was not easily offended. "Great" I said, damage control done, moving on. So, I did my little part, but it doesn't change the fact that she is still offended and I make her even _more_ uncomfortable now. But hey, I can only go off of her word. I'm not willing to put any more effort into. She can say whatever she wants to anyone else but I choose to go off what she says to me. The feeling is mutual anyway.

Saddly, this type of thing happens to me way too often. Once I offended a whole group of mom's because strangers were talking loudly about how annoying the childrens diapers were, seriously (ugh, have I said how much I despise passive-aggressive communication?). I walked right over to them and started chatting with them "Hey, I was hearing how annoyed you are. Let me know what the issue is so I can address it for you.". Of course "there was no issue, the kids were all fine and really cute". But my actions definitely made everyone on both sides very uncomfortable. I honestly believe some people enjoy the drama.

So I do use my own communication style as a basis for interpreting others. I'll be honest with you, and I will assume that you are being honest with me. I don't have any control over your interpretation and have zero intentions on attempting to dissect what people are really trying to say. With that though I have to recognize that each of us has our own internal filter and I have to gauge if effort on my part is worth the relationship.
I have a very sarcastic sense of humour too, sometimes it seems like the only person who gets it at all is one friend who's probably more sarcastic then me.

Miss Information: That thing with facial expressions is the reason I don't make many of them. Only when I want the other person to read further into what I'm saying.

[CorasMama]

I told my dad the other day that I'm going to start his eulogy, "My favorite trait that I get from my father is misanthropy."

I alienate people with my know-it-all-ness (I'm sorry I have a big vocabulary and research stuff) and my lack of social graces (moved around constantly as a kid, so I was always the new kid.) I don't really "get" other people. I'm kinda dense.

And They Might Be Giants is my all-time favorite group (duo). I love, love, love them. And I now have I, Palindrome, I going through my head for the next 2 days. Thank you!

[expat-mama]

"Colourless green ideas sleep furiously."



Someone's been reading Noam Chomsky :D I am so in love with him. So is DH.

Well I've been lurking in this tribe a bit as well as in the "No Friend Lonely Mamas" thread. Seems I fit the bill to join both (except I'm not a mama yet).

I think it's really hard for people who are passionate and informed about issues to get along in the world today. I was saying in the No Friend Lonely Mamas thread that I often feel like I'm "schooling" people when really, I'd just like to have an intelligent discussion with other people who are knowledgeable about the same things. This is often, apparently, asking too much. It seems intelligence has gone out of style and if one wants to talk about anything that matters or express an opinion one feels strongly about it's just too much of a "bummer".

I've found I have to search hard for people to relate to on a certain level and am thankful I've found dh. I think as much as others feel alienated by me, I largely feel wholly alienated by our society at large. Most of the time I'm an outsider looking in with an expression of absolute horror. It makes it extra nice though, once in while, to find like-minded souls. :wink

[Lydiah]

Someone's been reading Noam Chomsky :D I am so in love with him. So is DH.

Well I've been lurking in this tribe a bit as well as in the "No Friend Lonely Mamas" thread. Seems I fit the bill to join both (except I'm not a mama yet).

I think it's really hard for people who are passionate and informed about issues to get along in the world today. I was saying in the No Friend Lonely Mamas thread that I often feel like I'm "schooling" people when really, I'd just like to have an intelligent discussion with other people who are knowledgeable about the same things. This is often, apparently, asking too much. It seems intelligence has gone out of style and if one wants to talk about anything that matters or express an opinion one feels strongly about it's just too much of a "bummer".

I've found I have to search hard for people to relate to on a certain level and am thankful I've found dh. I think as much as others feel alienated by me, I largely feel wholly alienated by our society at large. Most of the time I'm an outsider looking in with an expression of absolute horror. It makes it extra nice though, once in while, to find like-minded souls. :wink

I really couldnt have said it better myself. Well mostly because i cant explain myself that well. Thats totally how i feel with the schooling thing. I like to have intellectual conversations with people but if its not mainstream opinion then i appear to be a nut. Sometimes i wanna shake people and say WAKE UP!, but that wouldnt help what i am trying to get across.

[DreamsInDigital]

I've been really driving myself crazy lately. I'm way too empathetic and other people's problems and struggles and difficulties affect me more than they seem to affect other people. And so I try to express that caring and empathy and desire to help and I come off as a crazy person! I don't get it!

[MusicianDad]

Someone's been reading Noam Chomsky :D I am so in love with him. So is DH.

Well I've been lurking in this tribe a bit as well as in the "No Friend Lonely Mamas" thread. Seems I fit the bill to join both (except I'm not a mama yet).

I think it's really hard for people who are passionate and informed about issues to get along in the world today. I was saying in the No Friend Lonely Mamas thread that I often feel like I'm "schooling" people when really, I'd just like to have an intelligent discussion with other people who are knowledgeable about the same things. This is often, apparently, asking too much. It seems intelligence has gone out of style and if one wants to talk about anything that matters or express an opinion one feels strongly about it's just too much of a "bummer".

I've found I have to search hard for people to relate to on a certain level and am thankful I've found dh. I think as much as others feel alienated by me, I largely feel wholly alienated by our society at large. Most of the time I'm an outsider looking in with an expression of absolute horror. It makes it extra nice though, once in while, to find like-minded souls. :wink
I've been waiting for someone to get that! Though in all honesty I've not actually read Noam Chomsky, I just know the sentence and a few other small things.

I understand about feeling like your schooling people. Outside of my family and close friends, I find myself having to explain what I say, then explain the explination. It can be really difficult when they need me to explain in terms that are too simple for me, because of course you can't get all the information into a simple explination and to me, all the information is pertinant to the situation. I have a hard time being able to, or even wanting to, focus soely on the key points. I want to get down and dirty with the nitpickey stuff!

[expat-mama]

I really don't get why somepeople can't be friends with someone who has some big difference of opinions. I can understand something being non-negotiable. But of the friends I have that have stuck with me, there are some big differences we have that we respect in each other because there are some big sames in there too.


Well, I have to admit I fall into this group a bit. (Again, it's funny because we are discussing this same thing in The No Friend Lonely Mamas tribe.) As I said before there are a bunch of issues I am extremely passionate about (I guess your big-ticket issues like racism, religion, politics, social/economic organization). In the other tribe, we were talking about being "intolerant of intolerant people" and "judgmental of prejudiced people". I have a really hard time being friends with people that don't see eye to eye with me on the "big stuff". I suppose it comes down to what you regard as non-negotiable, as you mentioned. For me that's a pretty big list. I'm an idealist and I've got high (perhaps unrealistic) standards. :tsk

[MusicianDad]

I've been really driving myself crazy lately. I'm way too empathetic and other people's problems and struggles and difficulties affect me more than they seem to affect other people. And so I try to express that caring and empathy and desire to help and I come off as a crazy person! I don't get it!
They aren't used to other people caring enough to try and help them. So you scare them. That's my experience anyway.

[DreamsInDigital]

They aren't used to other people caring enough to try and help them. So you scare them. That's my experience anyway.

Yeah, I get that a lot. Plus it helps that I'm pregnant and constantly crying over every stupid little thing.

[MusicianDad]

Yeah, I get that a lot. Plus it helps that I'm pregnant and constantly crying over every stupid little thing.
So they want to deal with one of those TV pg moms from a decade ago who never had any actual symptoms of pregnancy then...

[EXOLAX]

I've been really driving myself crazy lately. I'm way too empathetic and other people's problems and struggles and difficulties affect me more than they seem to affect other people. And so I try to express that caring and empathy and desire to help and I come off as a crazy person! I don't get it!

Or they are cynical and don't trust your motives.

FWIW I don't take help easily. Empathy is great, but I'm a do it all myself kind of gal. Like someone else posted, some people really want their space when they are going through a tough time.

[annettemarie]

Several posts have been removed from this thread due to a negativity and disrespectful that are not in the spirit of Mothering.

Please keep the User Agreement in mind when posting:
Mothering invites you to read and participate in the discussions. In doing so we ask that you agree to respect and uphold the integrity of this community. Through your direct or indirect participation here you agree to make a personal effort to maintain a comfortable and respectful atmosphere for our guests and members.
and
Do not post in a disrespectful, defamatory, adversarial, baiting, harassing, offensive, insultingly sarcastic or otherwise improper manner, toward a member or other individual, including casting of suspicion upon a person, invasion of privacy, humiliation, demeaning criticism, name-calling, personal attack, or in any way which violates the law.

We will not host a tribe that exists to be negative or put down others. If the tribe continues in this vein, it will be removed.

If you have any questions, please feel free to PM me. Please do not discuss it on the thread.

[bigeyes]

Or they are cynical and don't trust your motives.



:nod

That's all I'm going to say about it because I tend to alienate people when I say more. :lol

[AaronsMommy]

Could I join please? I had to stop reading all the posts and respond because I am absolutely shocked (and elated) that there are so many people out there that sound EXACTLY like me!

- I simply cannot get along with any mom (or dad) that is the slightest bit insecure about their parenting abilities. I try and I consider myself an empathetic person (but apprently they don't.) Someone recently told me that I "take myself too seriously" and "being a good mom/wife is too important to me" for us to be friends because it puts too much pressure on her and makes her feel like a bad mom/wife.

- People constantly get frustrated with me and shy away (or halt) conversations with me because I have too much information on subjects and insist on getting REAL information on issues and products before I act or buy, etc.

- I have no problem making friends, but keeping friends is near impossible for me.

- I am very intrinsic and I know exactly who I am, how I am feeling and what I need and I think that scares people?

Okay, I could blab on forever, but I'll stop I'm just really excited to keep reading and be a part of the conversation. Thanks for starting this tribe! :)

PS ~ I've been lurking around MDC for about a year now and I rarely ever see posts from Dad's, so I love hearing your point of view MusicianDad. Your post below, I could have written myself!

Quote:
Originally Posted by MusicianDad
"I tend to be very anti-social because I find people who consider me knowing things to be a bad thing to be, well, a bad thing. I don't think less of someone because they aren't the studious type, but when they judge ME for doing lots of research about just about anything I have a hard time being nice to or even wanting to talk to them."

[Dewberry]

Miss, I could have wrote your post! LOL

People make me nervous in real life, I've been burned by friends and in the back of my mind I do not want to waste my time getting close to anyone anymore, including MY mom and sister. :(
I hate it.
I'm so lonely, dh works night shift so he is either sleeping or at work and the sucks.

I hope to read more stories on this, I was beginning to think I was the only one, yanno?

[Verity]

Way back when, before I had children (my oldest is now 14), I had close friends. Since then, I've drifted apart from most old friends. I rarely make new friends because I am shy and even when I do talk to new people, I tend to put my foot in my mouth. I cannot seem to offer an opinion in a way that doesn't offend or alienate people. When I do manage to make a friend, the friendship doesn't last more than a couple of years before I do something stupid. My husband seems to be the only adult who can put up with me.

I've often wondered how my relationships got to this point. I used to chalk it up to not having enough emotional energy for people other than my husband and children, but it occurred to me recently that much of these difficulties began around the time my older sister died, in December of 1995. She'd had problems with depresssion and substance abuse and died of a drug and alcohol overdose. She may or may not have had the conscious thought of killing herself that night, but I suppose it can be argued that if a person is at the point that she doesn't care how much she's drinking and how she's mixing alcohol with drugs, she doesn't care if she lives or dies and and her behavior is, in essence, suicidal.

Maybe the timing of my interpersonal issues is coincidental, or maybe my inability to get along with people has something to with not having completely processed my sister's death and having unresolved anger against the world and God. I also feel defective, that something is wrong with my family, and by extension with me, that something considered unspeakable, such as suicide, could have happened in my immediate family.

The more I write, the more I realize I probably need a support thread for suicide survivors.

[mom2anangel]

I feel like I fit in here. I tend to alienate people a lot. We came into natural parenting after DD was born. It wasn't a decision made prior to giving birth. DH and I still are working towards becoming more natural. I tend to alienate families who have made the decision to be natural since before the birth of their children and people who have always been that way. I ask to many questions and I think they feel like I'm questioning their decisions rather that asking for more info. I also tend to alienate friends I had before had DD and while I was preggo, most of them are a lot more mainstream than I care to be. My family also has mainstream values so it's hard to deal with them sometimes. All in all I have a hard time making friends because I'm very set in my beliefs and feel like I have to defend them to family. I'm very open when other people have different beliefs, I just am over confrontational when people tell me my parenting choices are wrong. That's all for now, it's nice to know there is a group out there that i fit in.

[MusicianDad]

I feel like I fit in here.

Me too!

[sunnymw]

I belong here :) It's also hit-or-miss with family because when I do things differently, it's sometimes seen as an attack on their methods. But you know, to each their own.

[Swirly]

Okay, I guess I understand that. Though, being put here this assumes I want to grow and actually make changes to my fundamental nature. I'm not so sure I'm the one that needs to, or even wants to change. I am who I am, and for the most part, I like me, warts and all. I've decided that I'd much rather make friends online and forget real people. Okay, not really. But sort of.



Just was looking for commiseration, I guess. Not so much ideas on how to change, but basically find others who are like me that have trouble in the friendship department because we stand pretty strong on certain values/beliefs etc.


HAHAH, OMG - this is so me! I am a self-professed PITA because of my profound sense of justice and ideals, my inability to censor my mouth, my stupid, tactless honesty, my inability to let someone state something that isn't correct, LoL. I am a total joy to be with, I am sure.

I also really don't like people for very long once I get to know them. Their imperfections bother me as much or more as my own do. I am so easily disappointed in others when I feel they are disloyal or something.

[magentamomma]

joining! Back later

[Miss Information]

Way back when, before I had children (my oldest is now 14), I had close friends. Since then, I've drifted apart from most old friends. I rarely make new friends because I am shy and even when I do talk to new people, I tend to put my foot in my mouth. I cannot seem to offer an opinion in a way that doesn't offend or alienate people. When I do manage to make a friend, the friendship doesn't last more than a couple of years before I do something stupid. My husband seems to be the only adult who can put up with me.

I've often wondered how my relationships got to this point. I used to chalk it up to not having enough emotional energy for people other than my husband and children, but it occurred to me recently that much of these difficulties began around the time my older sister died, in December of 1995. She'd had problems with depresssion and substance abuse and died of a drug and alcohol overdose. She may or may not have had the conscious thought of killing herself that night, but I suppose it can be argued that if a person is at the point that she doesn't care how much she's drinking and how she's mixing alcohol with drugs, she doesn't care if she lives or dies and and her behavior is, in essence, suicidal.

Maybe the timing of my interpersonal issues is coincidental, or maybe my inability to get along with people has something to with not having completely processed my sister's death and having unresolved anger against the world and God. I also feel defective, that something is wrong with my family, and by extension with me, that something considered unspeakable, such as suicide, could have happened in my immediate family.

The more I write, the more I realize I probably need a support thread for suicide survivors.

Verity, I'm so sorry. There is a million things you could probably hypothesize about what added up to the final result, but I can assure you it wasn't your fault. The combination of depression and substance abuse renders a person with really little ability to make good judgments. I know, when I've been close to having suicidal thoughts, the only thing I thought about what how I badly felt and how I much I wanted it to stop. You don't think much about how your actions will affect others. You have to forgive yourself, your family, AND your sister. You didn't cause her depression, and like a run-away train, you could not have stopped it either. She was going through her own personal hell, but you don't have to continue to hold on to the guilt that you live with or be angry with others for not being able to stop it from happening either.

I know, though it's easier said than done. I'm a sensitive person, particularly with regards to family. I would probably need emotional support to let go. Sometimes, we hold on to the guilt, because if we didn't, we might be afraid we might forget about the person we lost. But you never forget. You just forget to hurt as much until one day, you are a stronger place and it doesn't hurt quite so much.

My heart hurts for you, because I can imagine the pain. I've felt that kind of loss then I lost two babies, and when I held my sisters hand and watched her give birth to her stillborn son. Only you have a lifetime of memories with her to mourn. I'm so sorry.

[sunkissedmumma67]

I belong here!:innocent I'm very introverted, and happily so.:) I haven't had friends in several years. After i divorced my 24 hrs a day partying husband, i realized all my friends were through him (party people too) and i wasn't even like them. Also i didn't even really like them either! It's not that i don't want friends but i got to have some stuff incommon. I even alienate people online.:lol I dont mean too or maybe i do? Hmmmmmmmmmmm, well anyway its like they say 1 thing that i really dont like and i'm outta there!:run I lose all interrest in getting to know them further. Its also hard for me where i live, not many parents into natural parenting at all! They look at U like you are CRAZY, if U don't parent by the mainstream rules and live the mainstream life!

[Lilypie32]

Ah ha! I found my tribe. :)

I have 3 good friends. 1 of them I've know since gradeschool and our friendship is great with the exception of our almost yearly, nasty fight. The other friend is a really good friend but she is making some awful choices in life that I do not support. And the last friend is an ex-bf who was bi when with me and is now gay. :)

I am not good at making friends. I am strong-willed, independent, indifferent to most people, I just don't like most people. I prefer to do things with my 3 friends, or with my Mom or alone. I have always been a loner and a homebody. All of those traits were not a positive in my marrage which ended in divorce. I am happier being single. I always have been!

I trust almost no one. I'm cynical and loud. If I don't like what action you take by me like accidently running over my foot with your grocery cart and you then do not apologize you will hear from me til you get in your car and drive away. :)

[Verity]

I've felt that kind of loss then I lost two babies, and when I held my sisters hand and watched her give birth to her stillborn son.

:hug I am so sorry for the losses you and your sister experienced. I can't begin to imagine the pain of losing a child.

I appreciate your post. My first child was a year and a half old when my sister died, and we had two more children after him. I think I was so busy with my own life that I never took time to process what had happened and to mourn.

The worst part is my relationship with the friend who has known our family forever (over 40 years). I have always experienced her as being somewhat judgmental, and I've never been able to fully relax around her since my sister died. Part of me is just sure she looks at our family and thinks, "Losers."

[Miss Information]

:hug I am so sorry for the losses you and your sister experienced. I can't begin to imagine the pain of losing a child.

I appreciate your post. My first child was a year and a half old when my sister died, and we had two more children after him. I think I was so busy with my own life that I never took time to process what had happened and to mourn.

The worst part is my relationship with the friend who has known our family forever (over 40 years). I have always experienced her as being somewhat judgmental, and I've never been able to fully relax around her since my sister died. Part of me is just sure she looks at our family and thinks, "Losers."

Sounds like you need to spend as little time in contact with her as possible. But, in all honesty, if you can't the best way around that feeling is to assume positive intent until you know the truth. Right now you are making the assumption that she's thinking "losers" when that really may not be thinking at all. Or even if she is thinking that, you really can't control what she thinks and expresses, but you certainly could ask what she means by comments or looks that you don't understand what she means by. Unless of course, you really put too much stock in her opinion. That would make it harder to call her on things she says or any questionable vibes she gives off.

If the friend is more your parents' friend, then I wouldn't stress so much about her. You can chalk it up to the fact that she's insensitive and opinionated and move on. But if she's your friend, then that would make it harder.

My mom has a close family friend that is judgmental too, but I steer clear of her when she is at the house. She speaks from a place of bitterness about most things. I may have to go to family functions where she's at, but I don't have to share the same personal space as she does, you know?

[A&A]

I belong here :) It's also hit-or-miss with family because when I do things differently, it's sometimes seen as an attack on their methods. But you know, to each their own.

Me, too.

[Verity]

Sounds like you need to spend as little time in contact with her as possible.

We have so much history and some interesting ties: she was in my wedding and I was in hers; she is my son's godmother; her brother-in-law dated my now-deceased sister; and her mother and my other sister have bonded through AA. Even if I wanted to just cut her off, my sister and her mother remain good friends, and my son does realize that she is his godmother, even though that role isn't all that meaningful.

A few years ago, I tried to work through some of my issues with her, and the only result was a lot of hurt feelings. We have quit trying to recapture the friendship we once had and have settled for being cordial to one another.

I guess the good news is that she lives a thousand miles away, so I don't have to see her very often.

[Miss Information]

Verity - that's good. Sometimes it's best to let things fade into the background.

[Miss Information]

Arrgghhh. I know it's just me. I think I just can't maintain proper friendships.

I seem to overstep things quite a bit. Not even in a bad way, but enough where I think people are getting tired of me. Sigh.

Things were better when I had no friends. I mean, yes, I was lonely, but I didn't have to have people misunderstand me or my kids.

[crunchymomofmany]

OK - This is too weird! I was just thinking, the other day, "what's wrong with me?" I do have a couple of close friends, but I often feel like the only reason these people like me is because I'm an easy doormat! Also, my own sister likes to make it her recreation to talk about me behind my back - with my own parents! Stuff about how I don't have a "job" - I have six kids and my husband works - how I'm elitist because I don't drink (I do drink once in a while, frankly I just don't like it a lot) and lots of other things. In fact, my sister once dissed me on the phone to my parents in front of my 15 year old daughter! She was so upset about it!

Anyway...I know I'm a bit of a "weirdo" - at least to them - I'm pretty crunchy, I like to stay home with my kids and I could give a frack about how much money I have. I prefer intellectual pursuits to beer-related ones. I like to read and I like to help people, which seems to make me a bit of a pariah. But if my own family feels that I'm a freak, I don't know how I could even have close friends.

I truly feel unlikeable - except by my kids and hubby! Thank God for them, though... Am I lonely? No, not really...but I do feel like I did in high school - everyone with their little group and me on the sidelines...

Anyway...I like this tribe...can I join?

[MusicianDad]

You can join. We can be our own little group. :)

[Heathen Mama]

I don't suffer fools at all, and I also genuinely don't care about the opinions of other people when it comes to me or my choices, so I am truly a pariah!

Plus I'm a researcher by trade, so if someone says ANYTHING to me that they can't back up, I call them on it... Unless we're having a friendly discussion about opinions.

I didn't mutilate my son's genitals, I cloth diaper and I married my mentor who is twice my age. I really tick a lot of people off by my life choices.

[bigeyes]

Plus I'm a researcher by trade, so if someone says ANYTHING to me that they can't back up, I call them on it... Unless we're having a friendly discussion about opinions.


That is my problem. In an online argument, if you don't post a link to back up your assertion, it is bad form, imo. In any other forum I've ever been part of you would be run out of the place if you didn't back up your arguments. I don't think of it as rude to insist on this because it's been drilled into me that it's rude not to provide the link. Apparently, most people here are the opposite and think you should have to ask for a link, which throws me off completely. :shrug

If we're talking about a product, or have you heard of this? and someone says yeah, I read about this but I don't recall where I saw it, that's not such a big deal, but if you're making an argument, especially against someone else who did provide a link, I just cannot get past feeling like you should provide a link of your own.

Then there's the whole urban myth thing. When people repeat urban myths as fact I have a tendency to just link snopes, which I suppose could be construed as rude. But no matter how I say things it seems like most of what I say gets misconstrued by someone anyway, no matter what the subject or context.

Sometimes I feel like I could use an entire page of smileys and someone would still find a way to assume I meant something entirely different from what I did anyway, yk?

[Miss Information]

Yeah, I get that. I'm always backing up things with links. If I don't know, I say so. It doesn't necessarily bother me when others don't, but if I'm interested in something, I do ask if they know where they have found that.

The urban myth propagated via email is a pita though. I've gotten to the point that I just ignore those emails. Particularly if they have been forwarded. If I have a piece of info I want to pass along to others, I don't use forwards, I actually compose a short email about it, why I think it's important, and provide at least two links to reputable sources.

It doesn't always matter, most things I find important to pass on fall on deaf ears anyway. Like lead in toys, breastfeeding topics, etc. Some people just don't want to deal with anything that complicates their already busy lifestyles.

[bigeyes]

Yeah, they'll take the time to pass on misinformation, but they're too busy to tell you where they got it. :lol I'm always the irritating one who insists on knowing where it came from.

[Miss Information]

Sigh...

I managed to alienate my daughter's teacher the other day at a PT conference.

In my insistence on following the rules and doing what's right, not what's comfortable or easy, I called my daughter's special needs teacher on being in non-compliance with the IEP she has.

Somehow, I got the teacher to feel insulted, to assume I was getting defensive (I was not, I was proving my points and being incredibly persistent about them), to tell me I was "potentially damage my working relationship" with her, to tell me to "lighten up" about my daughter because she's picking up on MY anxiety, all during a 15 minute parent-teacher conference.

Man, I wish I really was as unemotional and unequivocably right (in my own mind anyway) as Sheldon from the Big Bang Theory. I wouldn't have spent a full 10 minutes of the p-t conference with a flaming red face, a sick feeling in my stomach, and no words to describe how I attacked I felt.

What the heck is wrong with people?

And yes, you can bet teacher got a letter today expecting two weeks to clarify herself in writing and to fix what's wrong.

[Sierra]

Many times I am accused of being argumentative because I ask "why, how, or what information do you have to back that up?" kind of statements. I am a critical thinker and a skeptic.

Yes, I contine to be confused and perplexed about this response to me. People constantly accuse me of arguing with them when I am really seeking information. My tone of voice and body language seems to have very little to do with it.

Just yesterday I got into a discussion with someone at work about work related issues. I thought we were enjoying an exchange of ideas and information, but I later learned that she took it as an argument. At one point I was trying to make sure I understood correctly and I said, "Do you mean..." and asked a clarifying question. She blew up at me and said, "F**k! I am so not going to argue about this with you!" I think she interpreted "do you mean" in the threatening/argumentative way that statement could be made. But I am not sure how she got that impression, because I am pretty sure it was not consistent with my tone of voice. I thought it was very clear in my tone that it was a clarifying question.

I later went and apologized to her about how the conversation had gone, and told her that I am just interested in how things work and that I was enjoying the exchange of ideas. She couldn't bring herself to reciprocate my apology and only said that she hoped future conversations were productive.

Actually, that whole incident, which had other problematic elements, is what led me here. I couldn't stop crying all yesterday afternoon because this gal in the office here was yelling at me and being extremely critical of my views (but not able to articulate her exact problem with my views in any way that made sense to me when I broke it down). So I posted on my blog about it: http://becausethatiswhatmylifeislikerightnow.blogspot.com/2008/11/when-your-vision-is-to-expansive.html and then over at the Special Needs forum because I know I have some neurological special needs that may have played into all this. Over on the SN forum, I was referred to this tribe.

I have noticed my problems worsening since moving to New England a little over a year ago. My personal style does not seem to be the best match for my geography. Actually, I called one colleague who works in my same city yesterday because I was so distraught over what happened. She told me, "Well, you do think differently than most people." I was relieved last night when I-- still distressed-- called my friend and colleague from back in the state on the west coast where I previously lived. I told her that what our mutual colleague had said, and my friend was like, "you do?"

I don't know if that is because my friend is my friend because we think alike, or because we both think like west coast folks, but I felt a little better after that. I mean, I know I had the same difficulties back west, but nowhere near the extent of my problems now in the northeast.

Other things about me that apparently alienate people, beside my desire to learn and find out how things work and where exactly people are coming from:

When I am really interested, engaged, and animated, people think I am being passiontely argumentative.
If I am willing to engage with an idea for the duration of a conversation from a fairly singular viewpoint in order to give me a particular homebase with which to critically and skeptically evaluate an opposing idea, people assume that I am passionately, fervently, and genuinely attached to that viewpoint. And it doesn't matter if I give the disclaimer that I am engaging with the viewpoint for the advantage of a place at which to contrast another viewpoint in order to look critically at it. So few people apparently engage in this type of thinking, that it is the rare gem who can accept me at my word.
I am not a know-at-all, and I try not to act like one. Actually, I tend to be very humble. However, people frequently seem to mistake me being opinionated for being a know-it-all. The two seem distinctly different to me, and I am easily convinced that my opinion is wrong when it is, if I am presented with information that indicates I am wrong. I do not claim to have all the information I need before forming an initial opinion.
Apparently people are turned off by my neutral or thinking faces. I am told regularly that I have an angry, uspet, frustrated face when I am in fact just deep in thought or just sitting neutrally with little emotion at all. This is actually one of those things that I find most hurtful.
I am direct, and bottom-line in my style of communication. I am completely confused by the emotional undertones that people seem to assign to much communication. I am blown away by the way people read emotional information in factual statements I make.
That said, I am an emotional and sensitive person. I have obsessive anxiety about almost every single relational exchange I have with people. My conversation yesterday with the gal from my work probably blew over for her in a couple of hours, for me, I am still tearful about it today. This itself doesn't really alienate people, but I do think it makes me too fearful about seeking relationships.
I too am highly empathetic, and I am particularly defensive about underdogs or vulnerable people (or animals).
I care deeply for people but tend to somehow be very transient in my relationships. I seem to float in and out of engagement with people. Just because I haven't called someone I love for more than a year doesn't mean I love them any less. For me, even though I am an extrovert and seek social relationships, I have trouble with committed behavior in my friendships.
I am very forgetful. Many times people have to remind me of conversations we've had, things we've done together, or information they have shared with me. For me, it isn't a reflection of importance. I have a problem in my brain where I just can't access stored information easily.
I'm highly intellectual. I don't think of myself as particularly smart, but I am wired to think non-stop and to always be seeking to learn. My leisurely activities include research, political engagement, reading (often non-fiction), writing (often non-fiction), and educational events such as parenting workshops. I have little energy or patience for most of the "relaxing pastimes" of my peers.
I am not interested in the least in drugs or alcohol, and I tend to be pretty anti-smoking. After my son developed severe asthma and we constantly had to worry for his respiratory health, I apparently alienated friends of dw by feeling that the loving choice was for them to take every precaution not to expose my son to second hand smoke.
I am a verbose person. This turns some off. On the other hand, sometimes words fail me when I need them most. Especially in emotional situations. This turns others off.
I have difficulty processing spatial information. And also keeping track of time. Believe it or not, my ability to get lost even in situations when I should know exactly where I am going, and my trouble with keeping track of time have both impacted my relationships.
People sometimes think I am critical because I look at things critically.
Despite being extroverted, I can be very shy. This doesn't alienate friends, but it does make it hard to meet friends in the first place. It also makes people read various emotional states into my silence at say, a party when I don't know many folks or am just starting to get to know people.
I have trouble modulating the volume of my voice in day to day conversation. I am often told I am yelling, especially when I am engaged and animated in conversation. Other times, people complain I am mumbling or speaking too softly.
I am the last to grow tired of many debates/conversations. I sometimes stick on a subject for too long, and when other start to think it is running round in circles, sometimes I am seeing finer and finer nuances emerge or am just coming to understand another viewpoint with greater and greater clarity. I also have been accused of being repetative when I talk because I tend to see important but subtle nuances in language as if they have been highlighted mid-air.
I can be perseverative in a narrow range of interests.
I have difficulty with sustained eye contact.
I usually differentiate more than others between challenging someone's ideas, even deeply held beliefs, and challenging or attacking someone's person. I don't mind debate in the least...its an activity I've enjoyed since childhood. And I don't have to even have an attachment to the topic.
In the last couple of years I have become totally pop culturally illiterate.


The list probably could go on.

I relate to the humor thing to a certain extent, but it seems I differ here from many of you. My eldest sister has an extremely sarcastic sense of humor, and uses sarcasm liberally throughout the day. Though I can appreciate small doses of sarcasm, I find it very wearing and difficult in larger doses, and I actually avoid spending much more than an hour or two with my sister because of this. It's not that I don't *get* sarcasm, it is just there is a point for me where it becomes rude or passive-aggressive. That said, however, I have a very dry, dead-pan sense of humor that many folks don't relate to here in the states.

Miss Information, I can totally imagine myself in the exact same type of PT conference. I've certainly been there in IEP meetings. And I too wish I could just be confident like Sheldon, rather than getting red-faced and emotional, and coming home only to get sick.

[EXOLAX]

Just yesterday I got into a discussion with someone at work about work related issues. I thought we were enjoying an exchange of ideas and information, but I later learned that she took it as an argument. At one point I was trying to make sure I understood correctly and I said, "Do you mean..." and asked a clarifying question. She blew up at me and said, "F**k! I am so not going to argue about this with you!" I think she interpreted "do you mean" in the threatening/argumentative way that statement could be made.

I'm sorry the conversation left you feeling so upset, and I can relate to that as well. I really, seriously, wholeheartedly dislike the thought of people feeling that way toward me, or of misinterpreting me in such a negative way. I too can get really hung up on that (not sure if you read it, but we discussed that same issue earlier in the thread). It seems many of us here are frequently accused of being argumentative when we are not attempting to be and actually have genuine motives. I think you handled it well, and did what I would do which would be to go back to the person and chat with them about it. There is not much you can do beyond that.


If I am willing to engage with an idea for the duration of a conversation from a fairly singular viewpoint in order to give me a particular homebase with which to critically and skeptically evaluate an opposing idea, people assume that I am passionately, fervently, and genuinely attached to that viewpoint. And it doesn't matter if I give the disclaimer that I am engaging with the viewpoint for the advantage of a place at which to contrast another viewpoint in order to look critically at it. So few people apparently engage in this type of thinking, that it is the rare gem who can accept me at my word.


I had a negative encounter with a mom last week at a small parent coffee for my DD's preschool class. The teacher was talking about options for Kindergarten and when to start (should a child start at the appropriate age or wait another year). One mom who I didn't know pipped up and made some blanket statements about how kids are all held back so they can be better at sports. There were 3 mom's in the room (of about 10 people) who I knew who had intentionally waited a year for K for completely different reasons. As I've said before, I do not deal well with absolutes or exclusionary verbiage and I started rattling off some statistics on the benefits of waiting a year and listing many other reasons why some people would make that choice. The mom reacted very defensively to what I said even though I made no judgment call on the issue. I believe the mom assumed that I held my child back and took offense to her comments for that reason, while the opposite is true; we looked at grade skipping for our DD1 if she were to go to a certain school.

I am unable to make a personal judgment on any issue without looking at thoroughly from all sides. I will frequently do as you described, and I am sure many people out there might think that I hold views completely contrary to the ones I actually hold. Too bad we all don't live in the same city, those would be some wonderful conversations held over tea and coffee.... ;)

As far as sarcasm... I would probably prefer the word facetious to describe myself just because of the interpretation that sarcasm can = passive aggressive. I abhor passive aggressive communication. FWIW much of how you describe yourself I could have written, much of it.

Welcome!

[expat-mama]

Hi Sierra
I couldn't help but totally relate to almost everything in your post. Reading it, I felt like someone was describing me! except for a few small differences.
It sounds like you *really* know yourself well- and while pointing this out may sound silly, I don't think most people do know themselves that well...honestly. It's a great thing to know your strengths and weaknesses and also to understand how most people perceive you. I think the world would be a MUCH better place if people explored themselves and knew themselves to the extent that you do and if they tried to understand how and why others relate to them in certain ways. So kudos to you :thumb
I'm a lot like you in that I really try to understand myself and my relations with others- perhaps it comes with the territory of being very critical/analytical and slightly obsessive! After a long while spent figuring out myself, I've finally realised that the next step is ACCEPTING myself and finding others that accept me and appreciate my qualities. Whenever I see that someone doesn't quite "get" me, I just shrug it off now. I can't get along with everyone and that makes the people that do "get" me, the ones I do get along with, all the more special and interesting...
You sound like a great and interesting person! :D

[Sierra]

Thanks! I don't have much time but wanted to let you know I've read and really appreciated your posts.

[ExPatMama]

Can I join too? :D

I have never had much luck with friends. I have been enjoying reading through all of your posts, and can relate to a lot of what you say.

I tend to make friends easily, its keeping them that causes the problem. Like a lot of you I just simply rub people the wrong way. I insist on being informed about the choices I make for myself and my family. I try hard not to come across as a know-it-all. But seem to fall short every time.

I get excited and stimulated when having a good debate!! I don't care if people don't agree with me, what a boring world it would be if we all agreed with each other? But it drives me mental when someone hasn't even thought about the choices they make and so I ask questions in an attempt to better understand where they are coming from. This always comes across like I'm questioning the persons motive, rather than reasoning.

I have an extremely expressive face and find it very hard to control my expressions.... especially when I dont agree with what someone is saying. I also get on much better with men than women, which makes most women suspicious of me.

I am also someone who enjoys quiet time. I need time away from people to recharge my batteries. People seem to think that I don't WANT to talk with them. The best friends I have not only live in a different country, but we go for months without talking and then just pick right back up where we left off.

I thought that after having a baby I would get to meet some other Mum friends and at least we would have children in common........ hmmmmmmm, the best laid plans and all that. I have taken a different route to every other mother I know - babywearing, extended BF, APing etc - and they all seem to take my doing something different as a negative commentary on their choices. OK, so I am a serious advocate for all of the parenting choices that I have made, but I dont begrudge someone else their right to choose what is right for their family.
DS is also proving to be pretty bright, which is just an extra reason for these Mums not to want to talk to me. Its hard not to come across like you are bragging when they are talking about what their LO are up to and yours is obviously ahead.

Well, that is a little bit about me. You all seem lovely. Hopefully will get to know you all better! :love

[Sierra]

Can I join too? :D


I don't see why not. Welcome to MDC by the way!:thumb

[serenetabbie]

Well shoot, if I had known I was in such good company I would have stopped whining about how I seem to have a great talent for putting my foot in my mouth and come here to join you all sooner! I can relate SO much to so many of the things in this thread, it makes my head spin a bit to realize it really is not "just me". I have to go put my pies in the 'fridge to set for tomorrow, but take this as fair warning that I will be back to try to alienate everyone :wink:

[ExPatMama]

I don't see why not. Welcome to MDC by the way!:thumb

Yay! Oh and thanks. I have been a lurky lurker for awhile and couldnt resist when I saw this thread. :p

Ok, probably a stupid question (I'm good at those :innocent) how do you get your signature things working? When I try it says I am only allowed one icon?

[bigeyes]

Can I join too? :D

I have never had much luck with friends. I have been enjoying reading through all of your posts, and can relate to a lot of what you say.

I tend to make friends easily, its keeping them that causes the problem. Like a lot of you I just simply rub people the wrong way. I insist on being informed about the choices I make for myself and my family. I try hard not to come across as a know-it-all. But seem to fall short every time.

I get excited and stimulated when having a good debate!! I don't care if people don't agree with me, what a boring world it would be if we all agreed with each other? But it drives me mental when someone hasn't even thought about the choices they make and so I ask questions in an attempt to better understand where they are coming from. This always comes across like I'm questioning the persons motive, rather than reasoning.

I have an extremely expressive face and find it very hard to control my expressions.... especially when I dont agree with what someone is saying. I also get on much better with men than women, which makes most women suspicious of me.

I am also someone who enjoys quiet time. I need time away from people to recharge my batteries. People seem to think that I don't WANT to talk with them. The best friends I have not only live in a different country, but we go for months without talking and then just pick right back up where we left off.

I thought that after having a baby I would get to meet some other Mum friends and at least we would have children in common........ hmmmmmmm, the best laid plans and all that. I have taken a different route to every other mother I know - babywearing, extended BF, APing etc - and they all seem to take my doing something different as a negative commentary on their choices. OK, so I am a serious advocate for all of the parenting choices that I have made, but I dont begrudge someone else their right to choose what is right for their family.
DS is also proving to be pretty bright, which is just an extra reason for these Mums not to want to talk to me. Its hard not to come across like you are bragging when they are talking about what their LO are up to and yours is obviously ahead.

Well, that is a little bit about me. You all seem lovely. Hopefully will get to know you all better! :love
I can so relate to everything you said. I just made a new friend who sent me an email and apologized for bending my ear all night long at a school function, telling me she sometimes rubs people the wrong way, and I was like no, you're one of us. :lol

[rightkindofme]

I'm a bit late to the party, but I promise that I fit in. :thumb

I have mellowed a lot as I have grown up but I still have a hard time with people. Part of what is hardest for me is that I often make terrible first impressions. People think I am overly aggressive, hostile, rude, abrasive, etc. Once they get to know me a little better I hear, "I used to think you were just rude, now I really appreciate that you are so honest and up front." :eyesroll I used to make friends really easily but at this point I think that most of those people were "friends" in the myspace/livejournal sort of sense: they aren't your friends they are people you know. Once upon a time I was considered one of the biggest nexxus points for the bay area freak communities. When I got married and went monogamous my popularity evaporated. I guess I know why I was popular. :(

I'm not even sure that people stopped liking me. I think it is more that the party-crowds value group interactions over individual interactions and I'm not interested in partying anymore. :shrug

I alienate my family in a big way though. My family is uneducated, reactionary, and they tend to think that laws don't apply to them. I'm lawful good. (And a complete freakin nerd.) When my family is engaging in behavior that is harmful to minors I report them and then have to deal with fallout for years. And then there is the fact that most of my extended family won't acknowledge that I am alive because I reported my father for molesting me. :( I should have "kept my mouth shut."

So yeah. I've also got the issue that I don't suffer fools. Boy does this blow up regularly.

I have more I want to say but my teething kid who is nursing right now is sucking my brains out of my head with the milk. (I think the occasional bites distract me and keep the train of thought from being consistent.) And I wanted to respond to a bunch of posts individually but it took me two days to read the thread so I have forgotten what. *sigh*

[Heathen Mama]

I hope I don't get banned for asking the question, but how come so many posts are deleted? I post here so infrequently 'cause I don't want to respond to something I care about and have it yanked if it disagrees with the MDC rules in some way...

I've been alienating my very religious associates over issues of this election. When I was in high school, I was mildy acquainted with a girl (we were in detention together all the time, we fought once and we spoke but weren't "friends"). She told a few of us one afternoon that she was pregnant with her father's baby. She wound up miscarrying after just 3 months. That really shaped my views about women and their rights and their bodies, and how girls shouldn't ever have to make those decisions.

Anyone who's not intelligent enough to do more than quote slogans and talking points is really gonna be put off by me.

And I seem to be waist deep in those types!

[annettemarie]

I hope I don't get banned for asking the question, but how come so many posts are deleted? I post here so infrequently 'cause I don't want to respond to something I care about and have it yanked if it disagrees with the MDC rules in some way...


If you have specific questions, your best bet would be to PM a moderator or administrator rather than discuss it here on the thread. From the User Agreement:
Do not post to debate or challenge the MDC User Agreement, the moderators, administrators, or their actions. Constructive criticism and questions for purposes of clarification are best addressed directly to the moderator or administrator by private message or personal e-mail. If this is not successful, see Recourse.

Obviously, to respect members' privacy, we're not going to discuss individual User Agreement violations with you unless they were your User Agreement violations. :)

Just stick to the UA (http://www.mothering.com/mdc/mdc_useragreement.html) and you should be fine.

[rightkindofme]

Man I need this tribe more than usual lately. Anyone else noticing Mercury's retrograde? I feel like I'm arguing way more than usual and I don't like it.

[bigeyes]

Man I need this tribe more than usual lately. Anyone else noticing Mercury's retrograde? I feel like I'm arguing way more than usual and I don't like it.

Oh, man....I always get into arguments during Mercury Retrogrades! And I usually find out it's a retrograde after I've resigned from a chat group in a huff and gotten my feelings hurt by someone else, and said something that came out wrong to someone else.....I really should pay more attention to when they're coming up and just hide. :lol

I just posted in TAO, it may not be showing up yet, but my router tried to catch fire yesterday morning and I was without the internet until this afternoon. Is that the ultimate Mercury Retrograde communication snafu, or what? :laugh:

[nonconformnmom]

I can relate so much to what people in this tribe are experiencing! I don't have time to post now, but I hope to commiserate on this thread a bit later ....

[yogal]

so can someone sum up the last 4 pages of this thread.

i think my boyfriend is one of you and I'd like to learn about it so I can cope with it because up to right now I've basically just been alienating him right back until we're both alienating each other.
I try to catch myself before I do it but sometimes its just hard to not feel like we're drifting so far apart.

Does any of this make sense?

[nonconformnmom]

Wow, see, this is me to a T. I'm so glad to know I'm not alone!



When I am really interested, engaged, and animated, people think I am being passiontely argumentative.
If I am willing to engage with an idea for the duration of a conversation from a fairly singular viewpoint in order to give me a particular homebase with which to critically and skeptically evaluate an opposing idea, people assume that I am passionately, fervently, and genuinely attached to that viewpoint. And it doesn't matter if I give the disclaimer that I am engaging with the viewpoint for the advantage of a place at which to contrast another viewpoint in order to look critically at it. So few people apparently engage in this type of thinking, that it is the rare gem who can accept me at my word.
I am not a know-at-all, and I try not to act like one. Actually, I tend to be very humble. However, people frequently seem to mistake me being opinionated for being a know-it-all. The two seem distinctly different to me, and I am easily convinced that my opinion is wrong when it is, if I am presented with information that indicates I am wrong. I do not claim to have all the information I need before forming an initial opinion.
Apparently people are turned off by my neutral or thinking faces. I am told regularly that I have an angry, uspet, frustrated face when I am in fact just deep in thought or just sitting neutrally with little emotion at all. This is actually one of those things that I find most hurtful.
I am direct, and bottom-line in my style of communication. I am completely confused by the emotional undertones that people seem to assign to much communication. I am blown away by the way people read emotional information in factual statements I make.
That said, I am an emotional and sensitive person. I have obsessive anxiety about almost every single relational exchange I have with people. My conversation yesterday with the gal from my work probably blew over for her in a couple of hours, for me, I am still tearful about it today. This itself doesn't really alienate people, but I do think it makes me too fearful about seeking relationships.
I too am highly empathetic, and I am particularly defensive about underdogs or vulnerable people (or animals).
I care deeply for people but tend to somehow be very transient in my relationships. I seem to float in and out of engagement with people. Just because I haven't called someone I love for more than a year doesn't mean I love them any less. For me, even though I am an extrovert and seek social relationships, I have trouble with committed behavior in my friendships.
I am very forgetful. Many times people have to remind me of conversations we've had, things we've done together, or information they have shared with me. For me, it isn't a reflection of importance. I have a problem in my brain where I just can't access stored information easily.
I'm highly intellectual. I don't think of myself as particularly smart, but I am wired to think non-stop and to always be seeking to learn. My leisurely activities include research, political engagement, reading (often non-fiction), writing (often non-fiction), and educational events such as parenting workshops. I have little energy or patience for most of the "relaxing pastimes" of my peers.
I am a verbose person. This turns some off. On the other hand, sometimes words fail me when I need them most. Especially in emotional situations. This turns others off.
People sometimes think I am critical because I look at things critically.
I am the last to grow tired of many debates/conversations. I sometimes stick on a subject for too long, and when other start to think it is running round in circles, sometimes I am seeing finer and finer nuances emerge or am just coming to understand another viewpoint with greater and greater clarity. I also have been accused of being repetitive when I talk because I tend to see important but subtle nuances in language as if they have been highlighted mid-air.
I usually differentiate more than others between challenging someone's ideas, even deeply held beliefs, and challenging or attacking someone's person. I don't mind debate in the least...its an activity I've enjoyed since childhood. And I don't have to even have an attachment to the topic.
In the last couple of years I have become totally pop culturally illiterate.
.

[rightkindofme]

so can someone sum up the last 4 pages of this thread.

i think my boyfriend is one of you and I'd like to learn about it so I can cope with it because up to right now I've basically just been alienating him right back until we're both alienating each other.
I try to catch myself before I do it but sometimes its just hard to not feel like we're drifting so far apart.

Does any of this make sense?

Well, we could but you would get more out of it by reading the whole thread. It isn't that long.

The short version: man do we have trouble communicating sometimes. UGH!

[quietasariot]

Can I join? I swear, I feel like I could write a book on How to Alienate Others. :/. Especially females! LOL.

[nonconformnmom]

Can I join? I swear, I feel like I could write a book on How to Alienate Others. :/. Especially females! LOL.

Well ..... I dunno ..... I feel kinda alienated by you already.





:wink



(If you need a co-author for your book, I'm available.)

[quietasariot]

Lol :d

[mrsshunk]

I feel right at home here. I'm for some reason a really intimidating person, or so I am told. I love to debate, but I do listen as well. I'm terrible at being anything but brutally honest. There's nothing I hate more than people beating around the bush. If I don't have anything I want to say, I don't waste time with mindless small talk chit chat. I make no apologies for offending people; they should know how to deal with someone else's opinion. For some reason I can't seem to remember that other people are so much more sensitive than me.

[raykelnickicola]

I feel right at home here. I'm for some reason a really intimidating person, or so I am told. I love to debate, but I do listen as well. I'm terrible at being anything but brutally honest. There's nothing I hate more than people beating around the bush. If I don't have anything I want to say, I don't waste time with mindless small talk chit chat. I make no apologies for offending people; they should know how to deal with someone else's opinion. For some reason I can't seem to remember that other people are so much more sensitive than me.
Apparently, I'm intimidating too :P
I always thought I was alone in this, but everyone here summed it up perfectly.
So... can I join? :)

A few things to add:
1.) I value loyalty. For me, it’s kind of an all-or-nothing deal. That’s something that some people don't understand. I guess I expect the same treatment from others that I give them. Is that too idealistic?

2.) Might I mention how much I despise personal networking sites? I value my privacy and it causes me great anxiety to think that strangers and people I haven’t talked to in 10 years could keep tabs on me and my family. Not that they would want to, but it's the principle.

3.) One more thing: Although I am very honest and direct, I am very sensitive and have a high degree of empathy for other people. I apologize too much for my foot-in-my-mouth comments.

[user_name]

howdy! ? enjoying reading this thread...feeling like i'm playing a role in a movie whose name i don't know and almost all you guys are versions of me. how self-absorbed is that? sorry -- just wanting to relate further and connect with fellow disconnectors some more...

[NaturalMamma]

You mean, I'm not alone?! :joy:

I wonder if there is a name for our kind of personality?

I can so relate to all these things...and the things you said, Sierra. I'm super empathetic, sensitive yet a bit tough and direct with people. I can't stand being around any form of pretentiousness (sp?)...I like people to be "real" and am totally turned off by artificial people and superficial chit-chat. My biggest thing is that I like things to be "on the table"--for people to be honest and open with me. And I hate verbal/mind games! You have a problem with me--just say it! Instead people drop hints about something they want or expect from me and then they get irritated when I haven't gotten the message. Oh, I'm getting the message, but for pete's sake--be a grown up and speak your mind. :eyesroll And when people throw jabs at me and I'm standing there wondering if I'm being overly sensitive...should I let it go, should I say something. But I'm not usually that quick-witted. It's later when I'm obsessing over the remark that I come up with something.

Yeah--I just say stuff too. Like someone who was talking about her credit card debt. I just blurted out, "man--you gotta just pay that off!" :D

It find it a little irritating when I'm at dinner somewhere and everyone plays the little game of "who is going to get the last remaining potatoes" where someone who really wants them isn't going to say something b/c she doesn't want to appear selfish and then someone ends up finishing them just so they don't go to waste, but they don't really want them. :nut Can't people just simply say what they want and everyone can negotiate openly? I nipped that in the bud when DH and I met. "If you really want to see a certain movie, just say it. If I want to see something else, I'll say it and we'll compromise/negotiate."

Well, that's my little contribution to this therapy session. :wink

[rightkindofme]

It find it a little irritating when I'm at dinner somewhere and everyone plays the little game of "who is going to get the last remaining potatoes" where someone who really wants them isn't going to say something b/c she doesn't want to appear selfish and then someone ends up finishing them just so they don't go to waste, but they don't really want them. :nut Can't people just simply say what they want and everyone can negotiate openly?

We don't have that problem in our house. The default is that my husband will finish everything because he loves to eat (and he has a higher metabolism). If I want it I tell him early on that he isn't allowed to finish it because I want more. He always sets aside waaaaaaay more than I really want so that I can be sure to have enough.

You gotta be pushy when you live with a guy who has four brothers. In his house you ate fast or you didn't eat. :)

[JollyGG]

Can I join? I swear, I feel like I could write a book on How to Alienate Others. :/. Especially females! LOL.

This one struck me. I don't have a problem alienating everyone. Just women. I am a female but I grew up with brothers, I went into science a career. I do just fine communicating with men but women and I often have issues. I did discover once I moved into my career field that I have not problem with the women I now work with. I think a lot of them left behind a lot of the pettiness and catiness to get here. But in groups of moms or in previous jobs (substitute teaching, nurses aid) where the demographic was mostly female I tended to have issues. Even in high school when I was in sports I would get along way better with the guys teams but had trouble working with my own teammates.

Anyone else only have issues with one gender or the other?

[leosmommy]

.

[mama librarian]

"i think my boyfriend is one of you and I'd like to learn about it so I can cope with it because up to right now I've basically just been alienating him right back until we're both alienating each other." -Yogal



Yogal, I can relate. I just discovered this group, and although I personally do not have these characteristics, my partner belongs to this tribe without a doubt, and it is edifying for me just to know that there are others out there like him. He is incredibly social, but is unable to fulfill that need because he tends to just turn everyone off. I feel hurt for him, but am unable to change anything. As it is, I am an introvert, and will avoid conflict at all costs, and unfortunately, his personality tends to cause a bit of conflict with others. He is forthright, logical, full of opinions and ideas, and just tends to send people scurrying for more 'common' ground. He is completely unable to 'do' small talk, and has facial expressions that just seem to aggravate people. It hurts me because I know he desperately wants to connect with other people, and thinks he is doing so, until he is rejected time and again. He has good intentions, but others aren't able to see past his demeanor. I am having a hard time not blaming him for our lack of social interactions and friends, and when I do make acquantainces with someone who is a potential 'friend', I am embarrassed to introduce him, because I know what their reaction will be. I know this wasn't helpful to your situation, but sometimes an empathetic ear makes the difference.

I feel like I inadvertantly belong to this tribe, simply because my life partner is a member, and it helps me to see things from his perspective.

Thanks:shy

[expecting-joy]

OMG! I just read the first page and thought Me! Me! Me! can I join???? :wave

I recognize a few of you and hope to catch up soon. I live far from the culture in which I was raised, although I probably didn't fit in there either. College was the best experience I had being around like-minded people. Here it's definitely hard. The few friends that just accept me (and I them) no matter what even when we say/do off things are many time zones away.

I have no real relationship with my siblings. One has hated me since I was born. One lives on another planet and one is sweet, but not too deep or involved, and they all live far away. My mom died when I was young. I can can talk to my dad about the weather or the front page, but only superficially. :duh It's frustrating and lonely.

When I make friends here they tend to be transient, as in not from here and moving on to someplace else. And it's hard to get to that deep level of satisfaction where you can talk about life and interesting things. Enough about nothing already...

I'll be checking back in. I hope you'll have me. :Sheepish:

(I hope that last smiley wasn't too creepy.)

Oh, in response to a couple items from the beginning of the thread, I cannot stand people being mean to others or crass or disrepectful. Ugh! I've seen far too much of that lately. And I love language and well learning just about anything. :)

[Spuds]

From what I've read many of you sound like you fall into a classic INTP personality type (or similar)... just like me :joy:. If you're interested you can take the following test to determine if I'm right:

http://www.personalitytest.net/cgi-bin/q.pl

:D

[Not Sure]

Wow is this thread so me! And my DH, too - he is, in fact, an INTP. I am an INFJ, though the J is barely a J and in fact I even tested as a P once, and while I'm a strong F that in no way implies lack of T ability - in fact I am incredibly analytical and logical (science/math major in college and was working as a scientist until I got laid off a few months ago) but, due possibly to some really weird/abusive situations in childhood I am VERY uncomfortable with discord around me, and being very empathic it can affect me very strongly emotionally, so I always test F. It's like I know what's logical without even trying, and don't understand why others might not see what's so obvious, but unless it's one of my "things" (I'm very idealistic and certain principles I will defend to the death!) I'll often just let the other people "win" to get the bad vibes over with. Of course, I then resent them for it, but I care so little for most people half the time anyway it doesn't matter I suppose...

Anyway, I wanted to respond/write more, but I'm 8 months pregnant and been having terrible insomnia for the past few weeks (averaging maybe 3-4 hours of interrupted/disjointed sleep per night, and only 2 last night) so I need to go lay down now because I can't keep my eyes open much longer - not that I'll actually sleep when I lie down :(

Just wanted to say I'm SOOOO happy this tribe is here - I've been so lonely since moving to Florida and leaving my 2-3 good friends in Maine, and now I'm preggers and unemployed (way to go, corporate America, lay-off the pregnant lady and call yourselves "family-oriented!") and it's so hard to find anyone who "gets" me. Now I know why - you've all been here at MDC in this tribe!

[Danielsmom]

I want to join this tribe.

I can relate to some of the personality traits described here. I'm straightforward, kindhearted, sometimes tactless, but ultimately I wish people well and am generally harmless. Passive aggressive behavior drives me batty. Seeing cliques and social exclusion at work enrages me.

I think of myself as some sort of friendly cocker spaniel that might pee on someone's foot by accident, but whose tail would be wagging the entire time. "Oh, hi! Oops! Didn't mean it! Could you please throw the ball for me?"

However, I must give off some socially bad pheremone because in various social situations, I've been excluded. This is tough because while I am somewhat introverted, I actually thrive on social interaction. I do enjoy talking with adults.

As a stay at home mom, I have been incredibly lonely the last several years. I often feel that very few people "get" me. It's very hard to make friends as a stay at home mom. I never had this problem when I worked outside the home. In fact, in every place I worked, I made friends.

I have been fortunate through perseverance and damn hard work to make some fabulous mom friends and they have kindly alluded to my social goofyness. One mom described me as never "putting on airs" (why would I want to?). Another mom, when I was describing my current social dilemma of being excluded, said, "sweetie, you just need to keep trying so that people can see the wonderful person you really are." I, uh, need to get some clarification..."really are"?

And yet, in spite of being lonely, I have found joy in discovering the world with my kids, in rediscovering activities that I have loved for many years (nature hikes, writing, gardening, birdwatching, running), and focusing on those friendships that are flourishing.

[Not Sure]

Yeah!! We have successfully alienated this tribe!:joy:

High fives all around to Danielsmom, Spuds, and expecting-joy!!

[crunchy_mama]

I have read this tribe a half- dozen times at least nodding my head in agreement. Reading others articulate so well what I feel and have experienced is so helpful. I was just telling dh today- I just don't understand people- I can truly have good intentions and thoughts put everything on the line for someone and then they read me as trying to screw them or judge them? I also make friends easily but keeping them or making it a deeper relationship, not so much.

I am trying to work on accepting that it is just who I am. It is hard for me knowing that I do not mean others harm and my actions and words are often misinterpreted. I totally come off as a know-it-all as well and judgmental- even when I am not trying to me.

I have a horrible sense of humor and others see me as brutally honest. I cannot hide my facial expressions well.

[savannah smiles]

A big "howdy" to all my fellow alienaters (sp?)! I've been following this thread for awhile but wanted to finally join. :thumb

I actually went earlier this year to be evaluated for Asperger's since it seemed to be the description that most fit me. As it turns out, I was dx'd with something called Schizoid Personality Disorder (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schizoid_personality_disorder). Don't let the schizoid part of that alarm you, it just means "turned inwards." It's the most rare of personality disorders in terms of how often it's diagnosed and can often be confused w/ Asperger's.

While it was a relief to see "me" all spelled out, it was also a bummer to know that no matter how hard I worked, I wasn't likely to ever truly be different from how I am now. I really like me, but few others share that sentiment, lol! I've lived in my current house for 2.5 years and don't have what I would considered a true friend in the area, just casual ones. If I do end up finding a good friend, the wait would be well worth it!

I'll be following and popping in on this thread more often. It's nice to be with people who get it. :treehugger:

[Juuulie]

Well! This is my very first post in these forums. I was planning to lurk a bit longer but when I found this thread I couldn't resist jumping in.

I recognized myself over and over again in all these posts. I'm an INTJ, I have no use for small talk, I analyze EVERYTHING, people think I am arrogant because I am direct and don't hold back when I know the answer, I am socially awkward, have very few friends, etc., etc., etc.

It's helped a lot to discover (thank you internet!) that I'm not the only one. Also, I realized that in the same way that history is written by the winners, pop culture is created by the extroverts. There was a funny/poignant article in The Atlantic a few years ago called "Caring for Your Introvert (http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/200303/rauch)" that talks about this very thing:

With their endless appetite for talk and attention, extroverts also dominate social life, so they tend to set expectations. In our extrovertist society, being outgoing is considered normal and therefore desirable, a mark of happiness, confidence, leadership. Extroverts are seen as bighearted, vibrant, warm, empathic. "People person" is a compliment. Introverts are described with words like "guarded," "loner," "reserved," "taciturn," "self-contained," "private" -- narrow, ungenerous words, words that suggest emotional parsimony and smallness of personality. Female introverts, I suspect, must suffer especially. In certain circles, particularly in the Midwest, a man can still sometimes get away with being what they used to call a strong and silent type; introverted women, lacking that alternative, are even more likely than men to be perceived as timid, withdrawn, haughty.

Indeed!

It doesn't help matters that my kids are turning out to be every bit as introverted as their mother. I would like to be able to teach them the skills they need to navigate our "extrovertist society," but how can I when I barely have those skills myself? :scratch

[elizabeth70]

I haven't posted here in forever, but I'm loving this thread! I just took the personality quiz, says I'm an "INFP", sent it to my DH and he got the same result. :) Love the "Caring for Your Introvert" article too!

Ok, off to read more posts!




From what I've read many of you sound like you fall into a classic INTP personality type (or similar)... just like me :joy:. If you're interested you can take the following test to determine if I'm right:

http://www.personalitytest.net/cgi-bin/q.pl

:D

[Not Sure]

The thing is, it's not exactly "societal," it's that 75% of the human population is extroverted and only 25% is introverted. We're just rarer than the extroverts, and majority rules. However, I find introverts to be far more interesting people, but then that may be because I AM one! I do find it aggravating, though, that introverts are usually described in such derogatory terms. We're not wrong, just different!

[expecting-joy]

Ah, so I'm a rare gem! :joy:

Did anyone else exhibit libran tendencies toward that personality test. There were only four or five clear cut answers for me. The rest I wanted to answer with "it depends" and a short dissertation or I wanted to click somewhere on a spectrum line. For instance, a party where everyone is chit-chatting on inane topics makes me insane, whereas I have no trouble giving a long lecture to a crowd and fielding questions.

Dh and I took our kids to a friend of our dd's birthday party Saturday. It was so painful. We are able to fit in well enough, but it's so frustrating that no one has anything real to talk about. Do people just generally seem empty to gyou?

[expecting-joy]

Oh yes, and the craving peace and quiet/privacy versus social interaction...

I do crave social interaction. I crave those lovely late night conversations about the meaning of life and how to fix education and politics in this country with similarly interested, intelligent, thoughful people.

But I love me some privacy and peace and quiet. My biggest problem with our current home is that our yard is too exposed and I want privacy. I also don't like to share everything I'm up to. I like to have my private sphere. I have trouble with my Bekannten (acquaintance-friends) here, because they feel if you want to do stuff together sometimes, you want to do stuff together every day. I don't. And neither do my kids. My 5 yo likes to sit around and read half the day. My 2 yo likes to play pretend quietly with her trains and wooden people, animals and blocks. Somedays I worry because these Bekannten expect me to invite them when we go on outings, but although the three of us enjoy that sometimes, we also just like our quiet outings by ourselves, KWIM?

I miss the friends that I could feed the kids and then eat dinner with after putting the kids to bed and then stay up half the night chatting. Conversely, these same friends would be totally up for going dancing with me, whereas the Bekannten here want to be together all the time but not do the active things I love, like playing a game of waterpolo or volleyball or going dancing or ice-skating or skiing. It's weird.

Or maybe I am. I'm athletic and enthusiastic, but cannot do superficial or bystander. I like to be very organized, but can do instantaneous, depending on the circumstances. It's harder with young kids who have food allergies and need naps and some planning.

[greenthumb3]

Oh yes, and the craving peace and quiet/privacy versus social interaction...

I do crave social interaction. I crave those lovely late night conversations about the meaning of life and how to fix education and politics in this country with similarly interested, intelligent, thoughful people.

But I love me some privacy and peace and quiet.


Oh, let's be friends! This is me! I would forego the party chat and board games my whole family LOVES in favor of great conversation about topics that are meaningful to me/us. (I play to sneak in some fun conversation, but never play to win; I am not "motivated by competition". :)

I also love peace and quiet and becoming a mother has challenged that aspect as there are so many clamoring voices so much of the time and I crave those quiet moments, I need to journal and write poetry and talk to myself on long walks.

I have been feeling more and more lonely, esp. as my family members grow up and I discover how different I am than most everyone and that my in-laws tolerate me but really don't "get" me. Even my closest (only) friend comments on how "serious" I tend to be. I am a thoughtful person who likes to think about things below the surface and dig "deep". I guess that turns most people off?

I am really struggling with people at church, my main "social group" I face weekly. It seems like no matter what I do or say, ppl get the wrong idea about me entirely. I am letting go of the expectation they will understand me and that I will almost always be more patient/understanding with them than they are with me. Sometimes I wish I knew what I did that was "wrong", but then I look around and realize it's my genuine nature and not trying to compete that puts ppl ill at ease, b/c it brings into question their way of being. I work hard at being fair and even and kind, but I no longer go out of my way to please people, and I am glad to be free of that old burden, needing constant validation. I have a hard time understanding the "social rules"--or maybe, I understand them but disagree with them simultaneously and refuse to play by the status quo, which I disagree with and actually do not "vote" for by my behavior (you know, those "self-appointed alpha people")
Anyway, I am officially joining!

[greenthumb3]

Ah, so I'm a rare gem! :joy:

Did anyone else exhibit libran tendencies toward that personality test. There were only four or five clear cut answers for me.

YES! There were some I could say yes to both, or need to explain more, but overall, I think my results are fairly accurate. Funny, cause I went to college to be a family therapist but left to raise a family. I guess I am rare, too, part of 1% of the population!

INFJ: "Author". Strong drive and enjoyment to help others. Complex personality. 1% of the total population. These are serious students and workers who really want to contribute. They are private and easily hurt. They make good spouses, but tend to be physically reserved. People often think they are psychic. They make good therapists, general practitioners, ministers, and so on.