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*Update* My health memoirs, please help edit for happy ending:

12K views 272 replies 17 participants last post by  mamafish9 
#1 ·
Ok. So here's my story and I would love it if people could give me some help/input on what to do, where to go next. I basically began this leg of my journey when DD was born (now 5). She had lots of digestive issues/rashes, etc. At the time I didn't know enough so she still has digestive issues. She also has midline issues.

DS also has issues. Not many rashes but definite GI distress. He's a slow grower and a terrible sleeper. Doesn't eat a lot of solids. Has midline issues (tongue tie, high palate, probably others). We had his tongue clipped at 8 months, followed by CST. Then a break. We are now doing CST again & also homeopathy. He's now 18 months & about 22 lbs.

My main symptoms are: irregular bowels, fagitue (especially around 3-6pm), waking at night & not being able to fall back to sleep, achy joints, pain in my lower right back. I also go through periods of "whoa is me, why me, etc." I had a labial frenulum cut when I was a child and I think I have a ridge in my mouth. Not sure about other midline issues. Looking at one of the articles posted I would say I fall more to the undermethylating side of things.

I was dx via saliva test in Nov 07 as having Adrenal Fatigue. The highlights of that test has my

AM Cortisol 4.4 (RR: 7-10)
Epinephrine AM 5.9 (RR 8-13)
Dopamine AM 180 (RR 110-175)
Seratonin AM 116.5 (RR 150-200)
Glutamate AM 43 (RR 10-35)
Histamine AM 24.8 (RR 10-20)

An informal thyroid (patch test) showed my thyroid low. A blood test in May showed low TT3 but normal T4 & TSH. My vitamin D was very low (15) after several months of supplementation. I've ordered a retest on the thyroid & vit D. I also know that I have unbalanced gut bacteria. A recent DDI hair element test revealed:

Aluminum 95th (all yellow)
Beryllium 93rd (almost all yellow)
Lead over 95th (into the pink)
Calcium 464 (RR 300-1200)
Magnesium 41 (RR 35-120)
Sodium 5 (RR 20-250)
Copper 150 (RR 11-37)
Zinc 210 (RR 140-220)
Manganese .95 (RR .08-.60)
Chromium .34 (.40-.65)
Boron .13 (rr .25-1.5)
Lithium .006 (rr .007-.020)

My ratios all looked ok.

Adam's DDI hair element test shows:

Aluminum 13 (rr <8)
Antimony .22 (rr <.066)
Arenic .088 (rr <.080)
Lead 2.2 (rr < 1.0)
Tin .68 (rr <.30)
Magnesium 6 (rr 12-30)
Sodium 10 (rr 20-200)
Zinc 62 (rr 100-190)
Molybdenum .042 (rr .050-13)
Lithium .004 (.007-020)
Strontium .06 (.16-1.0)

My current regime is to take in the AM: Gammadyn zinc, liquid vit d, Adrenal supplement, SP Greens supplement, biotin & quercitin. I am also drinking water kefir and eating fermented veggies with every meal. Working on taking a probiotic & fish oil in the evening. I also have bone broth every day. Also just started a magnesium supplement at night (natural calm). And I started putting vit C in my water.

Adam is eating fermented veggies. He also gets vit c & glutamine in his water.

We are both gluten & dairy free. I have been avoiding red meat & eat mostly chicken, fish & turkey.
 
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#152 ·
Sorry if a bunch of this is repeat from before, I'm just skimming over the first few posts...
Your big issues are copper and lead, right?

Looking back at your test results in the OP, it looks like you're low in methyl groups, and you're supplementing B12? Do you notice a difference from it? Have you gotten your levels tested? Have you considered B12 shots?

One experiment you could do to test the emunctory theory is try flushing yourself out with mag or vit C or something for a few days? High dose vitamin C can deplete copper... You'd have to be sure to get plenty of fluid and electrolytes and do it wisely, but it might be really interesting.

Do you guys have sulfur issues? Are you craving salt or does it taste good, with the adrenal issues? How's your blood pressure?

And you've made huge progress here. For a few days, Adam ATE and GREW and SLEPT. You hit baseline. Now you know he's fully capable of doing those things. He'll catch up soon enough. (Even when we were at 'baseline,' dd still hasn't slept more than 4-6 hours at a stretch without milking. I actually feel like you're seeing more progress than us!)
 
#153 ·
Quote:

Originally Posted by whoMe View Post
Sorry if a bunch of this is repeat from before, I'm just skimming over the first few posts...
Your big issues are copper and lead, right?

Looking back at your test results in the OP, it looks like you're low in methyl groups, and you're supplementing B12? Do you notice a difference from it? Have you gotten your levels tested? Have you considered B12 shots?

I was taking B12. Didn't notice a difference but maybe I wasn't taking enough. ON my last blood test my vit b12 level was 374 pg/mL but there is no reference range on that so I have no idea if that's good or bad. The doctor who ordered that blood test mentioned something about possible b12 shots but I haven't gone for my followup yet.

One experiment you could do to test the emunctory theory is try flushing yourself out with mag or vit C or something for a few days? High dose vitamin C can deplete copper... You'd have to be sure to get plenty of fluid and electrolytes and do it wisely, but it might be really interesting.

Before I got sick I was doing very high doses of mag to the point where I was having very loose stools a couple of times a day.

Do you guys have sulfur issues? Are you craving salt or does it taste good, with the adrenal issues? How's your blood pressure?

I occasionally crave salty food & sometimes it tastes good. I am drinking salty water right now but I think its gross. My blood pressure is low/normal. Always has been.

And you've made huge progress here. For a few days, Adam ATE and GREW and SLEPT. You hit baseline. Now you know he's fully capable of doing those things. He'll catch up soon enough. (Even when we were at 'baseline,' dd still hasn't slept more than 4-6 hours at a stretch without milking. I actually feel like you're seeing more progress than us!)

Really? Is your daughter still on the chart for weight? I'd trade a little more size for a few hours sleep any day.

BTW, I have no idea how to get back to baseline, except to get a stomach bug again.
.
 
#154 ·
I just realized I have some updated blood test results. I'll just put down the highlights:

Absolute lymphocytes 1.06, rr 1.5-4.0 <--- low

Absolute eosinophils .03, rr .05-.55 <--- low

Free T3 4.27pg/mL (rr 1.8-4.2) <--- high

Free T4 1.44 ng/dL (rr .71-1.85)

Total Cholesterol 176 mg/dL

LDL 89 mg/DL

Trigl 48 mg/DL

Cholesterol/HKL Risk Factor 2.3 (rr 3.7--6.7) <--- low

Testosterone 79 ng/dL (rr .35-5.5) <--- 79 (is this what make me have excessive body hair?)
 
#155 ·
Carren, I wish I could do something to help. It feels like you and I started on this journey at about the same time, and it hurts me to see how much you are still struggling. You have worked so hard and done so much. You and your LOs are in my thoughts!



~Tracy
 
#156 ·
Woah there, that's some high testosterone! It's supposed to convert to estrogen. Dd's napping, I'll try and look up that conversion for ya.

Your thyroid looks decent, but I don't know anything about the high value. It's only a little high...

According to this site (which i'm about to link to detoxpuzzle, it's cool!) your B12 is in range (200-900), but kind of low, and below average (450). If you're eating plenty of meat and it's still that low, you're likely looking at malabsorption (low HCl?) and so the shots might be worth a try, just to see if they make a difference.

Quote:
Before I got sick I was doing very high doses of mag to the point where I was having very loose stools a couple of times a day.
Darn
Maybe the bug cleared out your small intestine as well, vs the mag just adds a ton of water in the large intestine? I wonder what C does...

I'm drinking salt water too, and find there's a happy brine concentration - to little and it's disgusting, too much and I have to spit it out. But right in the middle, it's like a yummy salty broth. With no flavor. Oh, and I use Real Salt. I haven't done a taste test with other sea salts, but this stuff tastes SWEET to me.

My dd is off the charts big, and always has been. I'll happily send you some of her 37 pounds (at 30 months. 27lbs at 6mo. 10lbs at birth. I think she's getting closer to the line, but I'm not sure she's ever actually made it onto the charts.) It can't be healthy. Yeah, she's never slept any length of time, she's getting pickier in her eating (though I think that's turning back around), she FREAKS out when other kids try to play with her at the park, or if another baby so much as looks at me. At 2.5, she's happier w/o naps. And there's no real way to get supps into her, even though I know exactly what she needs
: So yeah, I definitely feel like I get left out of the baseline party sometimes. I don't even know where to look for us.
 
#157 ·
Quote:

Originally Posted by whoMe View Post
Darn
Maybe the bug cleared out your small intestine as well, vs the mag just adds a ton of water in the large intestine? I wonder what C does...

I was wondering if the bug maybe did something good. I just felt better in some ways after.

I'm drinking salt water too, and find there's a happy brine concentration - to little and it's disgusting, too much and I have to spit it out. But right in the middle, it's like a yummy salty broth. With no flavor. Oh, and I use Real Salt. I haven't done a taste test with other sea salts, but this stuff tastes SWEET to me.

My dd is off the charts big, and always has been. I'll happily send you some of her 37 pounds (at 30 months. 27lbs at 6mo. 10lbs at birth. I think she's getting closer to the line, but I'm not sure she's ever actually made it onto the charts.) It can't be healthy. Yeah, she's never slept any length of time, she's getting pickier in her eating (though I think that's turning back around), she FREAKS out when other kids try to play with her at the park, or if another baby so much as looks at me. At 2.5, she's happier w/o naps. And there's no real way to get supps into her, even though I know exactly what she needs
: So yeah, I definitely feel like I get left out of the baseline party sometimes. I don't even know where to look for us.
Hugs. DS is hard to get supplements into. He used to cheerily take his CLO & probiotics. Now he only take his probiotics. Refuses his CLO. I sneak his zinc, selenium & vit d into his water (they are liquid). He loves the Methyl B I have, although its probably bad for him. Other than that I can't get anything else into him. NO multi, no mag, no mag/cal. I'm trying to find a mag/cal/zinc liquid that I can use. And some other form of mag than Natural Calm. He also won't do any fermented foods. Only eats crappy bread, occasional chicken sausage, occasional hummus. And boobie.

So I guess we're in different ends of the same boat. Except I don't really know what DS needs. I'm just guessing.
 
#158 ·
I apologize in advance... Don't read if you have a weak stomach...

Okay, this one is waaay out there, but your comment that maybe the bug did something good reminded me. There has been some talk in the WAPF circles that there may be some benefit to eating 'high' (fermented/rotten) meat.
The theory being that it cleans you out in a way that other things cant, or even that potential parasites might do you some good by eating some of the bad stuff. Or something along those lines.

There's a guy locally who's played around with it (basically, he has a jar of rotten beef in the fridge and whenever he can convince himself to, he'll swallow a chunk of it whole. Says it's completely disgusting, but that he feels amazing afterwards.

Not that I'm saying it works or it wise to do while nursing (or ever), just that the idea exists in the world. Yeah.
 
#160 ·
Okay, testosterone->estrogen conversion.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aromatase
It looks like the enzyme is aromatase, and that it requires niacin (b3).
The enzyme is part of the group that makes up phase 1 detox (how are you on caffeine?)
"Factors known to increase aromatase activity include age, obesity, insulin, gonadotropins, and alcohol. Aromatase activity is decreased by prolactin, anti-müllerian hormone, and smoking."
Aromatase deficiency syndrome
"Individuals of both sexes will be tall as lack of estrogen does not bring the epiphyseal lines to closure."

There's a good chance it could have to do with being hairy. I'm curious, do you think the high testosterone is a relatively new thing, or an all along thing?

And reading through that article, I'm even more intrigued - I have myself pegged for low estrogen (at least pre-nursing) and this might could be a clue! But I'm not hairy. Just fairly tall. Oh wait. I just explained myself. High prolactin (due to low dopamine) inhibits aromatase activity (there are my low estrogen symptoms) and high insulin (I'm thinking I'm headed down the insulin resistance path) fuels the conversion. My adrenal test last year showed high estrogen, if anything. Sorry to hijack.
: thanks for that puzzle piece though!

Oh wait, but your dopamine's high. So that doesn't necessarily fit for you. Anything else jump out? Or shall I keep digging?
 
#161 ·
Quote:

Originally Posted by whoMe View Post
Okay, testosterone->estrogen conversion.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aromatase
It looks like the enzyme is aromatase, and that it requires niacin (b3).
The enzyme is part of the group that makes up phase 1 detox (how are you on caffeine?)
I'm so so on caffeine. If I drink it in the morning I'm ok. But after 12pm and it will keep me up at night. I think I'm a slow phase 1 detox

"Factors known to increase aromatase activity include age, obesity, insulin, gonadotropins, and alcohol. Aromatase activity is decreased by prolactin, anti-müllerian hormone, and smoking."
Aromatase deficiency syndrome
"Individuals of both sexes will be tall as lack of estrogen does not bring the epiphyseal lines to closure."
I am not tall. I've always been overly hairy, though. THick & dark.

There's a good chance it could have to do with being hairy. I'm curious, do you think the high testosterone is a relatively new thing, or an all along thing?

And reading through that article, I'm even more intrigued - I have myself pegged for low estrogen (at least pre-nursing) and this might could be a clue! But I'm not hairy. Just fairly tall. Oh wait. I just explained myself. High prolactin (due to low dopamine) inhibits aromatase activity (there are my low estrogen symptoms) and high insulin (I'm thinking I'm headed down the insulin resistance path) fuels the conversion. My adrenal test last year showed high estrogen, if anything. Sorry to hijack.
: thanks for that puzzle piece though!

Oh wait, but your dopamine's high. So that doesn't necessarily fit for you. Anything else jump out? Or shall I keep digging?
Well nothing else jumped out of these tests but I think there are more results I don't have yet. I'll find out at my followup.
 
#162 ·
how about any of the aromatase stuff?
"Factors known to increase aromatase activity include age, obesity, insulin, gonadotropins, and alcohol. Aromatase activity is decreased by prolactin, anti-müllerian hormone, and smoking."
 
#163 ·
Let me see if I understand this:

Low aromatose leads to weak testosterone to estrogen conversion.

So if I have low aromatose, some of the possible causes are prolactin, anti-müllerian hormone, and smoking."

Well I don't smoke. Theoretically I should have high prolactin due to nursing, right? So that's a possibility. Although it seems my supply is tanking. Not sure about the anti-mullerian hormon. Huh.

I guess anything is possible. I have been feeling more aggressive and angry lately. Like I want to hurt bad drivers and things like that.
 
#164 ·
Carren, I wanted to re-gather some of the supp info that's earlier in the thread and add a bit info, I did some re-reading in Cutler's books. Back in March, I did not fully realize just how frickin high your copper is, and I think Panserbjorne didn't notice just how far above the reference range you are either.

As an example, the "elevated copper" examples from Cutler's Hair Test Interp book are results of 93 and 140, and the 140 is "vast elevation of copper" and "well into the toxic region"... and you're above that.

Cutler says the half-life of copper in the body is about a month, so I think you can decrease your level by half in a month (which still puts you well into the toxic region and feeling like crap), and then half again in another month, and continue like that. You're pretty darn high, so I'd expect you're going to need at least 3 months to start feeling better. Folks on the yahoo list were starting to feel better by 2-3 months, but I think the lead will make things slower for you.

Given your really, really high level of copper, I think you're going to have to decide on a set of supps and decide to take them for 4-6 months knowing you won't feel better til near the end of that time period. I'd say after you've been taking everything for 3 months, retest your hair to see if the copper is coming down, but don't expect it to be in-range yet, and thus you'll probably still feel crappy. If it's not coming down, then stop and work on a new plan, but if it is coming down, keep doing all that stuff even though you don't feel better yet. With the very high level of lead you've got, improvement seems like it'll be slow.

Here's a sorta short summary of the stuff Cutler and Panserbjorne suggest. For simplicity, I checked to see if Thorne makes most of this stuff, since it's a brand I know and trust. I buy from totalhealthvitamins.net, seems like the best prices on Thorne, that I've seen anyway.. Feel free to get something else!

--zinc (I'd use Thorne zinc picolinate, 15mg 2x/day, that's within Panserbjorne's recommended dosage range too)
--molybdenum 3x/day with meals (get a 500mcg or 1mg supp, Thorne has a 1mg molybdenum picolinate supp)
--taurine (Cutler doesn't give a dosage, I'd probably order Thorne's and take 2 grams with each meal--guesstimate dosage from http://george-eby-research.com/html/...y.html#taurine)
--milk thistle (at this point I'd just order seeds from Mountain Rose Herbs, measure out a rounded tablespoon and mix in a coffee grinder, and drink that much 3x/day--I mix mine in orange juice)
--Cutler rec's glycine, I vote no--my HCP is sending me glycine to stimulate some detox pathway, so I'd skip it
--phosphatidylcholine (Thorne makes one but it has soy--I'd just use a brand that doesn't contain an allergen and follow the dosage on the bottle)
--bowel tolerance vitC 3x/day
--NAC (Thorne makes one, they call it CystePlus, it's only NAC and they say 1 capsule 3x/day with meals)
--selenium (Thorne makes a selenium picolinate, 200mcg, 1/day seems plenty)

Other stuff...
--do you like/hate/other the Perque2 Life Guard multi? It would work for Bs and misc stuff if you are ok with it.
--modifilan--you didn't mention it, I assume it didn't make you feel better? I'm going to vote, fwiw, that you take it anyway. My HCP says it's protective for breastmilk and I've seen that it's helpful for metals--slow help for the lead, maybe for the copper too, but if you can swing it for 6-9 months, I'd do it (yeah, a long time, but healing from toxicity from 2 metals is gonna be slow)
--vitamin C flushes ( http://www.perque.com/pdfs/Pt_Ascorbate_Slush_FIN.pdf) -- pluses, good for adrenals, good for reducing toxic load quickly, minuses--not fun, 1x/wk is maximum frequency
--whatever cal & mag supps you're doing now

I felt like we were talking off-and-on in the Chat thread and we should be doing it here, and I figure you feel like death warmed over, so that's why I put this over here. Didn't mean to be pushy.


Quote:

Originally Posted by TanyaLopez View Post
Okay, back to Cutler...

He says people with mixed copper plus another metal toxicity respond fastest by addressing the copper first instead of the other metal.

Now, he recommends: zinc with each meal and 1-3mg of molybdenum per day (for adults) and nutritional supps to promote bile flow like taurine, glycine, milk thistle and phosphatidylcholine, all with meals (I don't know if all of those are nursing compatible).

High Cu levels suggest possibility of gall bladder or biliary tract disease which should be explored.

A tendency to have high copper can run in families, it's good to check.

Quote:

Originally Posted by sonnambula View Post
Oh, WOW. You have some serious lead. The first three dont' suprise me given your experience with foods, they can serious screw with detox pathways. In fact the first three, lead and mercury all use primarily the same pathway.

I would also seriously focus on liver support. Vitamin C will likely be quite helpful for you, but I wouldn't skimp on selenium either. N-acetyl cysteine will be a good idea along with the vitamin C. Milk thistle would help too.


Quote:

Originally Posted by TanyaLopez View Post
I know this was addressed to sonnambula, but I figured I'd add some and she can add/revise as needed. FTR, I interpreted "mitigate further damage" to mean reduce absorption if there's a current exposure, and maybe help the balance a bit.

from before...
dietary calcium levels strongly influence lead absorption (more calcium, less lead absorbed). Ca supps (not carbonate or hydroxyapatite) are effective at reducing lead absorption. These reduce lead absorption: mag, zinc, iron but vitsD and copper increase it. vitC and E decrease the toxic effects of lead, fluoride increases the toxic effects.

I'd get cal and mag supps (I use a multi-mineral combo sometimes with some extra separate mag, but separate would work, sonnambula prefers that), and I'd give you and the kids bowel tolerance vitC 3x/day (which should help a bit with your copper as well).

Zinc's on the list for lead as well as copper, but I don't know how high you can/should supp. And I just looked it up, Cutler doesn't have a suggestion in his book. I'd think 15 or 30mg wouldn't be too high, given that it helps with both the lead and the copper (at least a bit--I don't think it's going to solve the problem at this level). Your son's hair zinc was low, but I don't have a good reference point for how much zinc to give him (I give my kids fairly high amounts, so I don't know where the middle ground is). 10mg? I'm just putting a guess there so sonnambula can correct me.
Your son could use extra mag, too, that's easier to play with. My kids get capsules with 110mg, I give my daughter 2, I'm thinking she's still really low and I'm considering 3.

FYI, supp zinc separate from calcium, maybe zinc at breakfast and lunch and cal at dinner? And mag at bedtime? Just a suggestion, in order to maximize absorption.

Have any of you had your iron, esp your ferritin, checked lately? Probably good to know this one before supp-ing iron.

Hey, another gem from Cutler: low adrenal function causes copper accumulation. I wonder if getting the copper out will help your adrenals heal? Maybe the unknown (plus the lead, which seems like quite the stress on your body too) that, once addressed, will allow your adrenals to start healing?

Quote:

Originally Posted by sonnambula View Post
You got good suggestions. I would also add (or maybe it was said and I missed it) liver support.

In terms of the zinc I can't tell you what to do, but I would be doing between 30 and 40 mg a day. For kids without guidance I wouldn't go more than 10mg. I agree with the calcium and magnesium supplementation.

I know that high levels of copper change how you metabolize (you move pretty quickly from a fast oxidizer to a slow oxidizer which also changes the way you utilize nutrients. High copper also changes neurotransmitters pretty significantly (high dopamine, norepinephrine etc.)

This can be seen in the hair results. Oops...gotta run, I'm late! I'll be back.

Quote:

Originally Posted by chlobo View Post
Ok. I ordered the book. I went back and reviewed this thread and the detox gone awry thread and this is what I have come up with for my "interim" plan:

For me, I should take:

Vit C - bowel tolerance
Calcium (not carbonate or hydroxyapatite) - can I use Cal/mag supp
Mag - natural calm at bed
zinc - 30-40mg (gammadyne won't work so what to use)
Vit E
Molybedenum - 1-3mg/day
Milk thistle - liquid? Ground seeds?
Selenium - is 2 brazil nuts enough?
N-acetyl cysteine
Phosphatidylcholine
taurine
glycine
Adrenal supp

***What about folate, b12, betaine, pantothenic acid, biotin, vit d, riboflavin, chlorophyl, clay????

For the kids:

Vit C - bowel tolerance over 3x/day
Zinc - 10mg
Mg - 110mg

Can anyone help with how much I should be taking?
 
#165 ·
Wow Tanya, thanks for thinking of me today. That's so sweet. I'll outline what I have (but some of it I haven't been taking)

Quote:

Originally Posted by TanyaLopez View Post
Carren, I wanted to re-gather some of the supp info that's earlier in the thread and add a bit info, I did some re-reading in Cutler's books. Back in March, I did not fully realize just how frickin high your copper is, and I think Panserbjorne didn't notice just how far above the reference range you are either.

As an example, the "elevated copper" examples from Cutler's Hair Test Interp book are results of 93 and 140, and the 140 is "vast elevation of copper" and "well into the toxic region"... and you're above that.

Cutler says the half-life of copper in the body is about a month, so I think you can decrease your level by half in a month (which still puts you well into the toxic region and feeling like crap), and then half again in another month, and continue like that. You're pretty darn high, so I'd expect you're going to need at least 3 months to start feeling better. Folks on the yahoo list were starting to feel better by 2-3 months, but I think the lead will make things slower for you.

Given your really, really high level of copper, I think you're going to have to decide on a set of supps and decide to take them for 4-6 months knowing you won't feel better til near the end of that time period. I'd say after you've been taking everything for 3 months, retest your hair to see if the copper is coming down, but don't expect it to be in-range yet, and thus you'll probably still feel crappy. If it's not coming down, then stop and work on a new plan, but if it is coming down, keep doing all that stuff even though you don't feel better yet. With the very high level of lead you've got, improvement seems like it'll be slow.

Here's a sorta short summary of the stuff Cutler and Panserbjorne suggest. For simplicity, I checked to see if Thorne makes most of this stuff, since it's a brand I know and trust. I buy from totalhealthvitamins.net, seems like the best prices on Thorne, that I've seen anyway.. Feel free to get something else!

--zinc (I'd use Thorne zinc picolinate, 15mg 2x/day, that's within Panserbjorne's recommended dosage range too)
I currently have scientific botanicals zinc sulfare. I'm almost out so maybe i'll try Thorne. Would the 15mg 2x/day be in addition to what's in the multi?

--molybdenum 3x/day with meals (get a 500mcg or 1mg supp, Thorne has a 1mg molybdenum picolinate supp)

Carlsons 500mcg molyb glycinate chelate

--taurine (Cutler doesn't give a dosage, I'd probably order Thorne's and take 2 grams with each meal--guesstimate dosage from http://george-eby-research.com/html/...y.html#taurine)

Source naturals taurine powder. Directions say to take between meals.

--milk thistle (at this point I'd just order seeds from Mountain Rose Herbs, measure out a rounded tablespoon and mix in a coffee grinder, and drink that much 3x/day--I mix mine in orange juice)
At the moment I have a milk thistle tincutre. I'm trying to take more of it. I'll also order some seeds next month from Frontier.

--Cutler rec's glycine, I vote no--my HCP is sending me glycine to stimulate some detox pathway, so I'd skip it
I have it if I need it

--phosphatidylcholine (Thorne makes one but it has soy--I'd just use a brand that doesn't contain an allergen and follow the dosage on the bottle)
What is this?

--bowel tolerance vitC 3x/day
You mean bowel tolerance dosage divided into 3 doses, right? I've been adding vit c to my water. should I try to do 3 bolus doses rather than smaller doses all day?

--NAC (Thorne makes one, they call it CystePlus, it's only NAC and they say 1 capsule 3x/day with meals)
I have Carlson NAC 500 mg. Is that the same as the Thorne?

--selenium (Thorne makes a selenium picolinate, 200mcg, 1/day seems plenty)

I've been doing 175 mcg. I'll up it. It's scientific botanicals

Other stuff...
--do you like/hate/other the Perque2 Life Guard multi? It would work for Bs and misc stuff if you are ok with it.
I'm ok with it. I'll probably continue for a while.

--modifilan--you didn't mention it, I assume it didn't make you feel better? I'm going to vote, fwiw, that you take it anyway. My HCP says it's protective for breastmilk and I've seen that it's helpful for metals--slow help for the lead, maybe for the copper too, but if you can swing it for 6-9 months, I'd do it (yeah, a long time, but healing from toxicity from 2 metals is gonna be slow)
I'll try to work it into the schedule. What dosage.

--vitamin C flushes ( http://www.perque.com/pdfs/Pt_Ascorbate_Slush_FIN.pdf) -- pluses, good for adrenals, good for reducing toxic load quickly, minuses--not fun, 1x/wk is maximum frequency
I've been dying to try this. And a salt flush. I think I'll do salt tomorrow & c next week.

--whatever cal & mag supps you're doing now

I felt like we were talking off-and-on in the Chat thread and we should be doing it here, and I figure you feel like death warmed over, so that's why I put this over here. Didn't mean to be pushy.

I feel like I've taken a turn for the worse. I feel weepy *a lot* of the time. I'm very impatient and have a lot of anger. And I am just so darn tired *ALL THE TIME*.

FWIW, I saw a chinese medicine guy today and he says my body has unlearned how to relax so I never quite get to a relaxed state and therefore don't get good rest. Which I totally agree with. That said he does this weird, painful massage that is supposed to help loosen me up & break down any scar tissue. I don't think healing should be that painful (physically, mentally & $$$$)
 
#166 ·
Quote:

Originally Posted by chlobo View Post
That said he does this weird, painful massage that is supposed to help loosen me up & break down any scar tissue. I don't think healing should be that painful (physically, mentally & $$$$)
Did he do "cupping"? (like scraping along your back REALLY hard) My friend had that done by a TCM woman. It was amazing for her! I can not believe the degree of bruising she incurred. And apparently that is a detox methodology. A few weeks later, the subsequent cupping had NO bruising, as she had cleared toxins. It was astounding. I wouldn't have believed it, if I hadn't seen the improvements for her.

Pat
 
#167 ·
Quote:

Originally Posted by WuWei View Post
Did he do "cupping"? (like scraping along your back REALLY hard) My friend had that done by a TCM woman. It was amazing for her! I can not believe the degree of bruising she incurred. And apparently that is a detox methodology. A few weeks later, the subsequent cupping had NO bruising, as she had cleared toxins. It was astounding. I wouldn't have believed it, if I hadn't seen the improvements for her.

Pat
He pressed his fingers really hard into any tight muscles or scar tissue he found. Not sure if he rubbed along my back really hard. It was kind of a blur. Kept telling me to relax as he's causing me pain. Not!
 
#168 ·
Quote:

Originally Posted by chlobo View Post
He pressed his fingers really hard into any tight muscles or scar tissue he found. Not sure if he rubbed along my back really hard. It was kind of a blur. Kept telling me to relax as he's causing me pain. Not!

That sounds different. There was a tool for the cupping, per my understanding.

Pat
 
#170 ·
Quote:

Originally Posted by chlobo View Post
I thought cupping was when they put a glass jar down & use fire to draw out the air?

I'm not well informed about it. I believe it is not done as deep pressure massage. From what I heard it was a scraping with a tool; what I read is the glass jar process.


Pat
 
#171 ·
Chlobo, from above...

zinc: if you're taking the multi (2/day, right? or are you taking more?) then I'd do the 2 multivits with breakfast and 1 15mg zinc picolinate with lunch.

molybdenum: sounds good

taurine: sounds good

milk thistle: sounds good, if you like the tincture, you could stay with it, I've just been impressed with how cheap the seeds are (maybe $10/lb including shipping, and I think I'm using about 1 lb/month for myself, very roughly--we're running low because I'm sharing the goodness with all)... and the taste is oddly appealing

phosphatidylcholine is another supp that Cutler recommends for promoting bile flow, it's basically lecithin (that's the simplified version)... but it looks like it's good for proper liver function and it doesn't look harmful while nursing. Your biggest problem may be finding one that's not soy derived. page on it...
http://www.woodmed.com/Phos%20Choline.htm

vitC--yeah, I mean the amount you can take that's just a bit less the diarrhea/gastro weirdness, take it at least 3x/day, if you prefer more often, that's great, probably better. I think the big thing is to figure out the max you can consume each day, and take it consistently. It helps in a lot of ways...and you should notice after you do the vitamin C flush that the amount you need goes down. I dose 3x/day because it's more convenient for me, but if another way is better for you, do it.

Your Carlson NAC sounds fine.

The amt of selenium you're taking is fine, really anything in the 200mcg range, plus or minus some, is fine.

modifilan--I am giving the kids as much as I can reasonably afford in the supplement part of our budget. DS, 37 lbs, gets 6/day (divided into 3 doses) and DD gets 3/day, and I've sometimes given DS 9/day when stressful stuff is going on. If you could afford 6-9/day (preferably divided into 3 doses, either 2 or 3 capsules 3x/day) for 6 months (a bulk purchase would clearly be more economical) then I really, really think it would help. It's meant for heavy metal problems, and I've seen really nice acute situation benefits, and I've seen that adding it to our other supps, for the kids, makes everything work together better and faster.

Quote:
I feel like I've taken a turn for the worse. I feel weepy *a lot* of the time. I'm very impatient and have a lot of anger. And I am just so darn tired *ALL THE TIME*.

FWIW, I saw a chinese medicine guy today and he says my body has unlearned how to relax so I never quite get to a relaxed state and therefore don't get good rest. Which I totally agree with. That said he does this weird, painful massage that is supposed to help loosen me up & break down any scar tissue. I don't think healing should be that painful (physically, mentally & $$$$)
I'm sorry you're feeling worse. Did I write out the part about copper messing with all sorts of neurotransmitters and chemicals in peoples' brains? It's not a shocker that you feel horrible, small comfort, I know, but with as much copper as you've got, it's possible you'll feel noticeably better in 4-6 months. I mean--this is a ton of pills to pop for 100+ days without the expectation of feeling better yet (maybe you will, but I wouldn't stop at that point, just do another hair test around the 3-month mark), but this works for people, and your level is higher than most.

A lot of the stuff you're talking about is similar to the stuff I've felt, and everyone says that dealing with copper is faster than mercury. You've got lead on top, so that seems like it'll slow things down, but there's a real possibility that this pile of pills will really help. And it should start to fix all the things that are going wrong that are making you feel so bad.


I am inclined to like Chinese medicine, our experiences have been good, so I'd go with it if it sounds like he can help with part of this. But I'm sorry it's painful AND expensive, that's just not fair.
 
#172 ·
Just realized (guess I forgot
) that modifilan should be taken away from food, either 20 minutes before or 45 minutes after (or more). I don't think it's always that way for the kids, but I give them all their stuff at once and it can be hard to keep organized. But it's best taken away from food.
 
#174 ·
So I have a followup appointment today with the functional medicine doctor who did the last round of blood tests. Here are the highlights:

Thyroid - felt that since the TSH was within normal limits, high T3 didn't matter
Testosterone - felt it was only mildly high

Ferritin - 26 (rr 10-291) - felt this was very low & warranted supplementation
Magnesium - 4.1 (rr 4.0 - 6.4) - felt this level was very low & warranted continued supplementation
Homocysteine 13.1 (no rr) - was low & warrants vit b supplementation

Doesn't like multi vitamins so recommends I stop supplementing those

His recommended new supplements:

CoQ10 - 100 mg/day
Vessel Care (b vitamins) - 1 tab daily
Ferrochol (iron) - 2 tabs/day
Adrenotone - 2-3 tabs/day

He felt that even with these additional supplements my fatigue would not be addressed and he thinks that another way to address this might be through vit c intravenous infusions after trying the supplements for a while.

So, at this point, my questions are:

What is the best, most absorbable kind of iron to take? He prescribed something but I just think it will constipate me?

What do you think about switching from a multi to just a vit b supplement?

What do you think of the CoQ10?

What do you think of intravenous vit c? I've never heard of it used in this context. Only in the context of an acute illness. I'm just not sure what to think.
 
#175 ·
Remind us of your TSH and T3 (was it free-T3)?

Your ferritin is darn low, mine was 3x yours and my doc and my acupuncturist both thought I should supplement. I'd find a ferrous bisglycinate WITHOUT copper (some good-quality ones have copper, since it's critical for hemoglobin, but you do not need more).

Mag is good stuff, I don't know how reliable the reference ranges are but supplementation seems very reasonable.

I had no idea homocysteine could be too low, probably says something about one of those detox cycles.

And I don't know much about coQ10, I don't think it could hurt, I just don't know when it's appropriate.

What does he think of your CRAZY HIGH hair copper and CRAZY HIGH hair lead? If he's not onboard with those, then I don't think he's going to be the route to you getting better.

I'm not philosophically opposed to IV vitC, but it doesn't seem like it actually addresses your issues, and so for the time and money, I'd rather focus on those.

re: multivitamins, I think you feel so bad that a lot of things are out of whack, so even though your diet is pretty good, I think it's still appropriate. And you get some zinc that way (zinc wasn't mentioned--I take it doesn't put any credence in the hair test?).
 
#176 ·
Quote:

Originally Posted by TanyaLopez View Post
Remind us of your TSH and T3 (was it free-T3)?

Free T3 4.27 (1.8 - 4.20)
TSH .75 (.35-5.50)

Your ferritin is darn low, mine was 3x yours and my doc and my acupuncturist both thought I should supplement. I'd find a ferrous bisglycinate WITHOUT copper (some good-quality ones have copper, since it's critical for hemoglobin, but you do not need more).
How does this one look:

http://www.herbsmd.com/detail/Advanc...Iron-18564.htm

Mag is good stuff, I don't know how reliable the reference ranges are but supplementation seems very reasonable.

I had no idea homocysteine could be too low, probably says something about one of those detox cycles.

And I don't know much about coQ10, I don't think it could hurt, I just don't know when it's appropriate.

What does he think of your CRAZY HIGH hair copper and CRAZY HIGH hair lead? If he's not onboard with those, then I don't think he's going to be the route to you getting better.
No he doesn't believe in hair tests. Only challenge testing and we're not doing that now.

I'm not philosophically opposed to IV vitC, but it doesn't seem like it actually addresses your issues, and so for the time and money, I'd rather focus on those.
but wouldn't it be like a massive vit c flush? wouldn't that be good for clearing toxins?

re: multivitamins, I think you feel so bad that a lot of things are out of whack, so even though your diet is pretty good, I think it's still appropriate. And you get some zinc that way (zinc wasn't mentioned--I take it doesn't put any credence in the hair test?).
He doesn't think I need zinc b/c my blood zinc was in range.
 
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