hothousing?

[MyZymurgy]

Originally Posted by minkin03

My 3 year old has been swimming since she was 18 months old, she took 1 week of classes and went from there. She swims completely unassisted (she likes to pretend she's Ariel). She just absolutely loves the water, always has.

here's a video from August: http://www.flickr.com/photos/karalynae/3850400035/

She's adorable! Definitely a strong swimmer for a three year old!

[moominmamma]

Originally Posted by eilonwy

If the child is the driving force, by definition you can't be hothousing.

I totally agree with this. However, sometimes the idea of the child being "the driving force" is open to interpretation. Here's a snippet from an acquaintance of mine, whom I believe is a hot-houser extraordinaire, while she believes she is following her ds's lead:

It was almost exactly one year ago now that he uttered the words, "Well...I might want to try playing hockey on a team someday..." and BAM, I flew into action. He said those words last Saturday October 4th, after a hockey birthday party for his friend M____. By Wednesday October 8th, he was on a team, had all of his equipment, and we attended our first team meeting. By his first game a few days later, his name was on his jersey and he was ready to go.

See, I think that's fairly, er, assertive following of a kid's lead.

Miranda

[larksongs]

I have been accused of hothousing from not-so-close relatives and people who simply did not ever get to fully observe the constant conversation and intellectual dynamic between my son and I and how I have tried to present the world to him. They thought that because he could read and work out math early and because I used larger words with him as opposed to baby words that I was 'pushing'. ok.
I never sent him to school and he read early , is advanced in math and in the way he speaks and the things that he thinks about. But it wasn't this exact thing that I set out to do. It's sort of like a seat of your pants exchange , exposure and inquiry .

I think the one thing that I 'pushed ' on was reading. But not by videos or workbooks . I did expose him daily to phonics just by reading to him and talking with him. I did set out to teach him to be an early reader. No one learns in a vacuum. He didn't 'teach himself' all by himself. I did it and I don't feel bad about pushing it.

I wanted him to read for pleasure as early as possible probably because of my own biblionmania It worked out well and he loves to read and be read to. I wouldn't even call it exactly pushing because it was something that he was open to and interested in . He listened and he followed along , if he tried I assisted, and I brought up phonics when he wasn't asking for it specifically.

To me this is almost like friendship though especially now that my son is older.

A friend tells me that she can teach me how to knit.She tells me this because I told her I thought that knitting would be hard and that I never got past the first few knots , and just gave up. She encourages me to try again and that she will show me what I don't know, even though I was discouraged in the past.

A friend calls to tell me about a wonderful book that he read. He is a history buff. I am not. He continues to give his opinion on this book and tells me wondrous facts in great and interesting detail that he learned from said book and encourages me to pick it up and read it even though I don't like history as much as him.

So I will knit with this friend and I will read this book. Because it has been made attractive to me and I value being able to do more things and I value being knowledgeable about more things.

I think that this is the dynamic between my son and I and is more than just homeschool teacher/ student/parent/child. It isn't that simple. I think that this is the case with a lot of kids who are gifted or even simply above average with their peers.

I think that there is a difference in the style of 'gifted' between so called hothousers and then that above described dynamic. There is more equality I think in the latter between teacher/parent/student. But I think the desired outcome is similar. I want my son to be successful , I want him to be intellectual. I want him to question and to think.

I once had a childless friend , who is very intelligent ask me if I would have been disappointed if my son had been average , just across the board and not concerned or interested in anything I put to him in the way he is. And I admitted I would be, and he admitted the same. I could admit that here and to him. I think especially in the AP community we want our children to really think about ethics and our impact on others.

My son I think by default gets philosophical about morals, and his career ideas swing between LEGO designer and diplomat lol.

If I blabbed to everyone on the street that I discuss philosophy, ethics and specific philosophers with my son they would call me a snooty hothouser. But people here might think it is perfectly normal to want to raise a child who is thinking outside the box and deeply questioning what is right and what is wrong.

So I really think it is subjective. Some parents are hothousing to compete and I think that this is different then what I am trying to describe. The "anything below an A+ and I'm taking away privileges ' crowd is not what I am describing.

And maybe this is off base to say but competitive parents , the "anything below an A+' crowd seem to want their child to shine above, be better, show off you know. And there isn't anything wrong with parental pride but for me it isn't about that. I don't get the 'Green Eyed Monster' when I meet or hear about a 'gifted' kid, even when they are better at something than my own.I am happy to have kids on this Earth that are deeply moral and thoughtful like my son. If I am 'hothousing' I would be honestly happy to see more parents do it in their own way,but kindly , as a deep exchange of challenging ideas and patience . It isn't always perfect but it certainly is not painful.

[no5no5]

larksongs, I found your above post to be disturbing in a number of ways. Most notably, you seem to equate normal development with amorality, lack of concern and thoughtfulness, lack of success, and disinterest in everything. I strongly disagree with this assumption. I also disagree that you can make your child be moral or thoughtful by discussing philosophy. I disagree that gifted children can/should have a different relationship with their parents than ND kids. I disagree that friendship (a relationship based on mutual enjoyment, dissolved at the whim of either party) is a good model for a parent/child relationship.

Before my DD was born, I did have concerns that I wouldn't know what to do with a ND child. I was concerned that such a child would not fit into our family well. I was concerned that I would have unreasonably high expectations. But when she was born, I was immediately aware that I would love her, and she would fit into our family, and be a wonderful, amazing person totally regardless of whether she was gifted, or special needs, or ND, or a combination thereof. I think this is the kind of love a child deserves. A love that is entirely unconditional. If you are not offering your child love free from expectation (and your post makes it sound as though you aren't), I would urge you to reconsider.

[eilonwy]

Originally Posted by no5no5

larksongs, I found your above post to be disturbing in a number of ways. Most notably, you seem to equate normal development with amorality, lack of concern and thoughtfulness, lack of success, and disinterest in everything. I strongly disagree with this assumption. I also disagree that you can make your child be moral or thoughtful by discussing philosophy. I disagree that gifted children can/should have a different relationship with their parents than ND kids. I disagree that friendship (a relationship based on mutual enjoyment, dissolved at the whim of either party) is a good model for a parent/child relationship.

Before my DD was born, I did have concerns that I wouldn't know what to do with a ND child. I was concerned that such a child would not fit into our family well. I was concerned that I would have unreasonably high expectations. But when she was born, I was immediately aware that I would love her, and she would fit into our family, and be a wonderful, amazing person totally regardless of whether she was gifted, or special needs, or ND, or a combination thereof. I think this is the kind of love a child deserves. A love that is entirely unconditional. If you are not offering your child love free from expectation (and your post makes it sound as though you aren't), I would urge you to reconsider.

I have to agree with this, and I think of myself as a fairly relaxed parent with strong leanings toward TCS and consensual living. I totally respect my children and I speak to them as respectfully as I can (meaning I don't deliberately use less sophisticated language, I don't lie to them, etc) but at the end of the day, I'm still the adult and they're still the kids. Ultimately, I make the decisions because I'm the responsible party. I try to model the behavior I'd like to see from the kiddos-- I don't just drop things because they become difficult, I make decisions about what to eat and when based on my health and well-being, etc. I give my children freedom to select books that appeal to them from the [children's section of the] library; I might even let them choose a particular day to visit, but I'm the one who said, "We're going to the library this week." In fact, I took it a step further and told them that they can't borrow more books than they can carry in their backpacks without hurting themselves (I had to add that after Bean decided to cram about twice as many books into his backpack as he could reasonably carry and he cut off circulation in his arms ) and I've asked Bean to choose at least one fiction book (because there are lots of great books out there, but left to his own devices he'll exclusively choose nonfiction). I can't say I'd treat a friend the same way unless he asked/required me to parent him.

[MyZymurgy]

Originally Posted by no5no5

I disagree that friendship (a relationship based on mutual enjoyment, dissolved at the whim of either party) is a good model for a parent/child relationship.

ITA with this.

Originally Posted by no5no5

I think this is the kind of love a child deserves. A love that is entirely unconditional. If you are not offering your child love free from expectation (and your post makes it sound as though you aren't), I would urge you to reconsider

Ouch... I gotta say, it was painful to read this. I know you are trying to be helpful... but I don't think it is fair to assume she does not love her child unconditionally. Just because parenting philosophies differ, I don't think that is a fair leap to make. I don't agree with much of her approach either, but I would never presume that she doesn't completely love her child. I think she does. I just had to say something because I would be tremendously hurt of anyone implied I wasn't fully loving my child. Again, no5no5, I know you mean well, are an awesome person, and I mostly agree with you - I just think we should avoid making such judgments on each other's heart.

[hottmama]

I have a ND child and a gifted child, and my ND son is more thoughtful and kind than my gifted child, who is so often in his own mind. My ND son is exceptionally moral, in that he cares deeply about things like homelessness, war, and the environment. He was a vegetarian until 4 by his own choosing, and still hasn't eaten cow or pig at ~7. His thoughtfulness is his most exceptional quality, whereas my youngest son's intelligence is his most exceptional quality. The idea that giftedness makes a child more thoughtful, moral, or caring is laughable. The people who exploit the most people and squander our earth's resources are highly intelligent.

I have to say if a friend of mine tried to push something I wasn't interested in, I'd be pretty irritated. There's a huge difference between suggesting and pushing.

[no5no5]

Originally Posted by MyZymurgy

Ouch... I gotta say, it was painful to read this. I know you are trying to be helpful... but I don't think it is fair to assume she does not love her child unconditionally. Just because parenting philosophies differ, I don't think that is a fair leap to make. I don't agree with much of her approach either, but I would never presume that she doesn't completely love her child. I think she does. I just had to say something because I would be tremendously hurt of anyone implied I wasn't fully loving my child. Again, no5no5, I know you mean well, are an awesome person, and I mostly agree with you - I just think we should avoid making such judgments on each other's heart.

I got that impression from her post, but I certainly agree that I don't know her (and even if I did I wouldn't be able to judge whether or not she loves her child unconditionally). I do think it is pretty common for parents to put expectations on their children that has the appearance (to children, at least) of conditional love. Sometimes parents themselves may believe their love to be conditional--and sometimes circumstances prove that they were wrong. Other times circumstances prove them right.

Regardless, I think that it is important to think about the effect our attitudes can have on our children. Perhaps larksongs doesn't express her feelings that she'd be disappointed if her child wasn't gifted, moral, intellectual, an early reader, etc., to her child, but if she is expressing them to us and to her friends, they are probably prominent enough that her child can pick up on them. It is not at all my intention to insult or judge anyone, but larksongs seems open to critical analysis, and I presume that she could change her attitude if she chose to.

[larksongs]

Originally Posted by eilonwy

I have to agree with this, and I think of myself as a fairly relaxed parent with strong leanings toward TCS and consensual living. I totally respect my children and I speak to them as respectfully as I can (meaning I don't deliberately use less sophisticated language, I don't lie to them, etc) but at the end of the day, I'm still the adult and they're still the kids. Ultimately, I make the decisions because I'm the responsible party. I try to model the behavior I'd like to see from the kiddos-- I don't just drop things because they become difficult, I make decisions about what to eat and when based on my health and well-being, etc. I give my children freedom to select books that appeal to them from the [children's section of the] library; I might even let them choose a particular day to visit, but I'm the one who said, "We're going to the library this week." In fact, I took it a step further and told them that they can't borrow more books than they can carry in their backpacks without hurting themselves (I had to add that after Bean decided to cram about twice as many books into his backpack as he could reasonably carry and he cut off circulation in his arms ) and I've asked Bean to choose at least one fiction book (because there are lots of great books out there, but left to his own devices he'll exclusively choose nonfiction). I can't say I'd treat a friend the same way unless he asked/required me to parent him.

Hmm that wasn't what I was trying to say at all, meaning I don't disagree with you at all.At the end of the day I am not my son's friend but I approach things that could be called academic in a way that is more organic way than graded and competitive.An exchange between a mother that I knew and her child who is quite smart. "What's wrong with you, are you stupid, you couldn't get that math problem" Shakes head turns to me and mutters "unbelievable". Her child DOES get very good grades, and would qualify as gifted but she's mean to her daughter and I think that is hothousing when someone is pushy and puts themselves so high above the child. All the mom ever spoke to me about is how she didn't want her to fail that she wanted her to be rich and she wouldn't become a doctor etc unless she did well now now now.

My exchange."Ok we are moving onto this today. Don't worry I know at first glance it looks confusing but I have a feeling that once you really look at it you are going to get it after a few tries. " Then when we are working I am encouraging.And I am thinking if he really hits a wall in math/language/science I will get him help but then if he grows to hate it and all things 'academic' he will still have that deep empathy and morality and thoughtfulness that I think will make him a success

It's like, you know your kid and what they can do and like a friend you know how to approach things with them.A parent knows deep down that instilling a love of learning and awareness of morality not through discussion of actual philosophy (which is new for my son) but just through modeling is the right thing to do. I see a lot of parents who just want grades and what not and never seem to think what that pressure is doing to their children and they treat a 'friend' with more respect than they do their kids.


My definition of 'gifted' is broad too. One of the criteria for gifted children is emotional/moral. I consider children who are unusually empathetic and conscientious to be gifted.I meet a lot of kids whose parents are simply going through motions and their kids don't consider the impact of their actions or their thoughts.

If my child had mainstream values or lack thereof and lacked any intellectual interest at all I am not afraid to admit that I would be disappointed. I wouldn't love him less but I would feel like a failure as a parent.All of our actions carry weight and I do equate some mainstream child rearing practices and school practices with amorality but I don't equate normal child development with amorality and lack of empathy.I believe that the way in which parents and adults treat children can have an impact on their emotional/intellectual growth and development. I believe more children would appear 'gifted' if they were treated completely differently than they are in schools and by society and by parents. I always considered a child who may be 'average' academically but unusually moral , kind and empathetic to those around them to be 'gifted'. Not because it wasn't normal to their development but because from where I stand it is rare.

Another thing that I was trying to say is that the free flow of ideas and knowledge , that that type of exchange is easier when a child is treated with respect, the similar respect that you would show a friend.

If my history buff friend called me and said "You are so dumb, I can't believe you don't know about this era. You need to go back to grade school and study" That wouldn't be the way he would speak to me. So when I speak to my son I believe that way. If some science text isn't appealing to him, instead of forcing it on him , I will think on my own time about who he is and what he likes and then find something that I feel will engage him. And I will tell him

" I looked and I think that the style this author takes is just so funny and the pictures are really beautiful.What do you think?"

So he has a big role in helping me find school books. I am still going to 'do school with him' as a parent it's my responsibility, but he isn't completely absent from the process and the choices. It's like he still has to brush his teeth but he can pick out the toothbrush and the toothpaste and the mouthwash.

I hope this post is more clear than my last. I can see as how my first came off as harsh. To excuse myself I was up too late posting after babysitting for 11 hours lol so I may have been less than clear on my feelings or how I treat children , any children mine or others.

Before I stop rambling I have to say that I am open to judgment about my values and opinions. I put them out there However I also believe in being honest with myself and I am open with adults about my feelings. Sometimes I think it is better to admit certain feelings in a safe place even if they are challenged then to keep feelings or thoughts inside. The conversation between my friend and I didn't stop at "would you be disappointed if" It was a long discussion. Sometimes people are so afraid to admit that they are disappointed (in a safe place to a friend etc) that it comes out in other ways. If someone gets hung up about academics and then neglect the child's emotional or creative talents for example.

[no5no5]

That does clear some things up, larksongs. I definitely agree with talking to one's children as if they are friends (as opposed to enemies or subjects). I always try to be friendly with my DD. I also often hear parents being rude or mean to their kids, and it makes me crazy.

And I agree with you that generally it is better to be open about one's feelings. I have a visceral reaction to hearing about others having expectations of their kids, but that is probably more about me than about you. I do agree that many parents feel the way you do, and often they do not admit it even to themselves. It is generally far better to admit one's feelings and try to work past them than to push them down and ignore them.

I do want to add, though, that I totally disagree that a mother is responsible for her child's values. All we can do is our best, and part of that is giving our children the freedom to make their own choices. It's not your responsibility to ensure that your child does not grow up to have mainstream values. It's your job to make sure that your child is healthy, well-loved, and has explored the world enough to be able to make his or her own decisions.

[MyZymurgy]

Originally Posted by no5no5

I do want to add, though, that I totally disagree that a mother is responsible for her child's values. All we can do is our best, and part of that is giving our children the freedom to make their own choices. It's not your responsibility to ensure that your child does not grow up to have mainstream values. It's your job to make sure that your child is healthy, well-loved, and has explored the world enough to be able to make his or her own decisions.

Well said!

[larksongs]

Originally Posted by hottmama

I have a ND child and a gifted child, and my ND son is more thoughtful and kind than my gifted child, who is so often in his own mind. My ND son is exceptionally moral, in that he cares deeply about things like homelessness, war, and the environment. He was a vegetarian until 4 by his own choosing, and still hasn't eaten cow or pig at ~7. His thoughtfulness is his most exceptional quality, whereas my youngest son's intelligence is his most exceptional quality. The idea that giftedness makes a child more thoughtful, moral, or caring is laughable. The people who exploit the most people and squander our earth's resources are highly intelligent.

I have to say if a friend of mine tried to push something I wasn't interested in, I'd be pretty irritated. There's a huge difference between suggesting and pushing.

Ack that's not what I meant at all. I meant that the morality is what I see as gifted and not necessarily the raw academic A+ or else type of dynamic. I meant that I believe a child is more likely to flourish academically if their environment is low on competition or pressure but more one based in respect and morality. But I think that the two go hand in hand. I think that is giftedness, but I think that that degree of morality is rare in the high pressure environment that a lot of kids are exposed to academically. I think that children are allowed to be 'gifted' and that the label becomes less rare in an environment of respect and free exchange of ideas as opposed to the environment where children are seen as 'less than'.

[eilonwy]

Originally Posted by no5no5

I do want to add, though, that I totally disagree that a mother is responsible for her child's values. All we can do is our best, and part of that is giving our children the freedom to make their own choices. It's not your responsibility to ensure that your child does not grow up to have mainstream values. It's your job to make sure that your child is healthy, well-loved, and has explored the world enough to be able to make his or her own decisions.

I think that basic human values are indeed imparted to children by their parents, as evidenced by the fact that children who don't develop a healthy attachment to their parents also fail to develop in socially appropriate ways. This is true of most mammals that live in groups, and it's especially true of human beings. The details might get hazy, but the basics (i.e. killing other people = bad deal) are certainly imparted to children by adults. I think you might be confusing adherence to a particular system of beliefs with the more fundamental aspects of human morality.

[no5no5]

Originally Posted by eilonwy

I think that basic human values are indeed imparted to children by their parents, as evidenced by the fact that children who don't develop a healthy attachment to their parents also fail to develop in socially appropriate ways. This is true of most mammals that live in groups, and it's especially true of human beings. The details might get hazy, but the basics (i.e. killing other people = bad deal) are certainly imparted to children by adults. I think you might be confusing adherence to a particular system of beliefs with the more fundamental aspects of human morality.

Oh, no, I'm not confusing them. I don't deny that the way in which we raise our children has an impact on the choices they make. Certainly healthy, well-loved, socialized children are likely to grow into adults who adhere to their society's value systems. But it is also certainly true that children who were parented appropriately have grown up into adults who did not choose to adhere to said value systems or even, as you put it, "the more fundamental aspects of human morality." All I am saying is that you are responsible for your own choices, not for your child's.