Vancouver(ish) Tribe: Plentiful Harvest

[Len]

I think I was somehow unsusbscribed from this thread and now I have to read tons of pages

In the meantime, I just wanted to drop a line to remind you all of the fabulous Vancouver Waldorf School Christmas Fair, taking place this Saturday Nov. 21st from 10 to 3.

There's also an opportunity to visit the Marketplace only, from 6:30 - 8:30 on Friday, when it's not crowded and your little ones are not around

Hoping to see some of you then!

[Piglet68]

Funny about the eggs: DH was saying that in the Croatian Village where his relatives lived (and where he visited often growing up) eggs were always kept out on the counter. He thought it was because they were so fresh. Can you do it with store-bought eggs (I heard at the Farmer's Market that they are often 3 weeks old by the time you get them; though we get ours from SPUD so not sure if that applies).

Cleaning: how appropriate this thread given that I spent the whole day cleaning and decluttering (we recently moved some rooms around and there was a lot of stuff that suddenly didn't have a home; and whattaya know, most of it was not worth keeping!). When we move I will do an even bigger decluttering. But the house is in good shape right now and the kids were really great today, playing all day in the house without any major conflicts. Usually we need to go out or they go squirrely. But this kind of weather inspires me to turn inwards and focus on the home.

Kids' involvement: well, perhaps because I enjoy cleaning most of the time and am of the "if you want it done right it's easier to do it yourself" persuasion, my kids don't seem to want to help out much. I ended up developing an allowance system based on the "our family has spending money and those who contribute to the daily running of the house get a say in how it's spent" philosophy. Both kids eagerly joined in a discussion of jobs they could do, although DS lasted five minutes before he decided he didn't really need the money and would like to pass, thanks, on the jobs, lol. DD is pretty good at it but I'm finding it hard to come up with meaningful jobs for her to do. She loves to join me in folding laundry (but only wants to do cloths and towels). I suppose I should look at it as a work in progress!

Unfortunately I won't be at Hula Hoot tomorrow, and bummed that I'm missing out on meeting so many MDC mums! We're meeting with our realtor and the landowners tomorrow to hammer out a deal on this parcel of land we're interested in.

[tiffani]

fingers crossed mariah!!!

I have a funny unschooling story, speaking of which... oh, and I guess it pertains to the cleaning discussion as well ...

We have had this ant mine that lucy gave dex for his birthday for quite a while, and we made it (plaster of paris) and painted it, but that's where the interest died. We were waiting until the weather got nice for the kids to find an ant colony to kidnap for our ant mine. so when we woke up this morning to an infestation of ants all over the dirty dishes on the counter and in the sink, we quickly finished putting the ant mine together, and spent the next 30 minutes collecting ants! went to dance class, homelearner roller games group, and then home. ALL the neighborhood kids are here now, collecting ants and trying to get them in the mine -- see what fun a messy house can bring!!

[tiffani]

oh yeah, eggs aren't refrigerated here either, though I do keep mine in the fridge because there is a special spot for them in the fridge and nothing else can go there anyway, so the eggs here always have bits of feather and chicken poop on them... makes me feel like they're really fresh!

[dawncayden]

everyone is so chatty, can only skim and am popping in to say I'll be at HH tomorrow.

[Ellp]

Yup, as far as I know, store bought eggs are already 3 weeks old by the time they hit the shelves. So people would be taking a risk here by keeping them on the counter. Freshly laid eggs can be kept on the counter, but as for how long I have no idea. We go through a carton of eggs a week. We also keep the eggs in the fridge, just because my counters are already cluttered enough.

(I've been making homemade sourdough bread the No knead method... Hence the clutter)

Getting kids to help out cleaning/tidying... What I do with my two is to barter with them. Eg, the kids want to get out stuff to do a craft. "Great!" I say... "But first the books on the floor need to be put in the book bucket." The kids usually rush to do it.

Oh, you want a snack? Ok, pick up the jacket on the floor and hang it on the banister while I cut you up an apple.

In fact, they're kind of used to my technique now so whenever they want to do something, they usually ask me what I want done in return.

The trick is to make a request that is simple to do, measurable and relatively easy. Don't say "Pick up all the toys", because to them, its an impossible task. Say instead "pick up all the balls, then you can have..." (ignoring the dolls, cars, and game pieces that are still left on the floor, those can be gotten later).

I do this throughout the day so that its not such a daunting task at the end of the day. By the time bedtime comes around, the play area is usually somewhat tidy.

Weather:
I'm listening to the wind howl outside my window and wow does it sound ferocious! Does anyone know if living on the side of a mountain mean you get any more or less "weather"? I heard on the news a couple of days ago that Heritage Mtn (Port Moody, where I am) got a heck of a lot more rain than anywhere else in the lower mainland.

Edited to add: Holy cow, the last gust made my neighbor's car alarm go off!

[Autumn Mama]

Originally Posted by tiffani

the eggs here always have bits of feather and chicken poop on them... makes me feel like they're really fresh!

Yes, that's how they will look coming from a "busy" egg production farm. Here in BC, they are sanitized before hitting the store shelves, but I imagine production here is greater than in New Zealand?? Your farms are probably large enough that the eggs aren't cleaned for cost reduction reasons, but not big enough that anyone would squawk about seeing a "dirty" egg in their carton. I laugh a little that folks would be bothered by the sight of fluff and poop. (Not you, I mean other folks. ;-)) Where exactly do you think they came from?? Out of a butt!

I'm not sure how long they keep on the counter, though fresh eggs without removing the bloom, will keep many, many weeks until you hit temps of 40 degrees indoors or something like that. On BYC (Backyard Chickens.com) there are threads about this from time to time...I'll post if I cross the topic again. Sanitizing the eggs (as is done here in BC) will remove the "bloom" which is the protective, breathable, coating that allows the egg to breathe, yet doesn't allow pathogens to cross the barrier into the egg. You will never get salmonella from farm fresh eggs (small scale) either!! Only factory farm eggs!!

[vancouverlori]

So much fascinating "talk"...

Originally Posted by tiffani

we just ordered dex a force fx lightsaber construction kit, that will be christmas for him, ...do any of the ipods have two earphone jacks?

Calvin would be so jealous of the lightsaber kit... but of course real Jedi's, you know, as part of their training, they have to go to the special planet to get the special crystal and construct it all by themselves.

As for the iPod thing - we got Calvin a Crayola mp3 player (it's egg-shaped!) and he rather likes it (though it displays so little info that it's hard to use) and it automatically came with 2 plugs. But really, an iPod is so much more handy and user-friendly, and a simple splitter really would do the trick.

Originally Posted by artparent

i've begun to realise that i would be really supporting him if i did some ironing because the poor man pulls the iron out each day just to get himself dressed + out the door.

Why doesn't he work ahead and iron several at a time? At night and not in the morning? Really. It might be a nice treat for him once in a while (maybe do it for him for a week or two so he sees how nice it could be...) but you aren't his mother, and he's evidently capable of ironing. Of course that's just my opinion.

I'm fairly proud of myself that I've gotten better at doing my share of the daily housework. Our dishwasher died, so it was extra-important to step up to the plate. This is how I'm supporting my husband. Because I really wasn't doing my share before. I still find the laundry hard, especially because the setup is so stupid. Bedrooms on 3rd floor. Laundry facilities in basement/1st floor. Hanging rack on 3rd floor (in master bedroom ) because it's too cold for them to dry in basement. Laundry hamper on 2 and 1/2th floor. The designer I hired was appalled, but there really isn't any reasonable way to change it. Worst is, that it's all out of sight from the main living area and out of sight really is out of mind for me. But I'm especially proud that when DH went away this past weekend, the house actually ended up cleaner than it was when he left. We gave the fridge a thorough scrubbing out (it's on the fritz and had a bad smell going). I kept somewhat on top of the laundry. I took Cal to hockey twice. I cooked lots of food. AND I did the dishes. Yay me!

Of course the living room still looks like a bomb blew up, even though I did tidy a bit. The assortment of lawn chairs really doesn't help.

And getting kids to help... I really need to work on making that work. Calvin also is only interested in doing things until he learns how, then he doesn't want to. And while sometimes he'll do what I ask, mostly he freaks out. (And why oh why does he start hitting/punching/kicking me??? Or threatening to kill me? Why on earth is that ok, in his head???) We started having family meetings, and then (once again) it's fallen by the wayside. Got to start that again.

And I'm tired because the wind and our surviving cat keep waking me up Meow. Whoosh. Meow. Whoosh.

I won't be at Hula Hoot tomorrow (have to work), but if Dawn goes, Calvin will be with her.

off to make letter practice pages...

[artparent]

happy 10 years robug it is unbelievable, isn't it? funny how we think we're having a baby...

so, i asked for more help yesterday from my kids. it didn't work for the little one so well, but my tall one contributed happily and we ended up with a lot more done than i ever would have expected. i am picturing in my mind having two tall girls and sharing the work of a household with them, i think life will be much easier when you're 4, it isn't that interesting, but my 9 year old is interested in learning how to do lots of things, especially cooking. i'm going to try to include them in more of what i do all day

it is raining, and i've woken up ill, and when i tell my kids we're staying home they cheer! we are such homebodies! funny how often i hear homeschoolers declaring that they aren't home much, we'd rather be home than most places

it sounds like we're having identical weather again. the winds have been so strong.

*

[artparent]

lori, ironing several at a time would be really intelligent. truly, that he irons at all gives me great joy and now he makes his own breakfast on workdays, i listen to him cooking and

he does all the wage earning around here, and i know it sounds terribly old fashioned, but the way i see it, i get to stay home, i get to have an art practice when i can squeeze it in, i get to homeschool the kids like i want to, and i don't have to get a job, which would kill me. so he gives so much to me, the least i can do is take care of him so he can do the work. in fact i left him on his own for two months this summer, and had that gorgeous holiday with our children in canada, and he stayed here and worked and took care of everything...he was fine, but it all works so much better when i'm contributing by running the household. i've just hated ironing so i never did it, and he didn't mind...but i can see how it would be a gift i could give him. you're absolutely right, i'm not his mother...but neither is he my father and i could contribute more to the household sometimes.

also it would be great to only have to put away the ironing board + iron once a week

my feminist self from a dozen years ago would be very confused by, if not highly critical of my feminist self now.

*

[Piglet68]

Originally Posted by artparent

my feminist self from a dozen years ago would be very confused by, if not highly critical of my feminist self now.

Lol. Mine, too. I look at it the same way you do, artparent.

In all this talk about kids contributing to the household (moominmama's thread has been fascinating) I've started to wonder if maybe there's something about kids that makes this tough. As in, when they are young (my kids' age) the world is just so about THEM, they truly don't seem to be able to see my perspective on housework, even if they try and listen. It's like I'm explaining something just so far outside their understanding, kwim? And then there are teens, what with their hormones and battle between wanting independence and still needing their families...

I'm also starting to wonder if gender doesn't play a role in all this. My DH comes from a culture where the women tend to wait hand and foot on everybody. His mother runs a very tidy house, but she does everything and never complains or asks for help. Needless to say he struggles with even being able to *see* what needs to be done. His late brother was the same way (never left home, actually). The daughter is neat as a pin and her house is practically sterile, it's so clean. OTOH, my mother did everything for us, we never had chores as children. And yet here I am running the show domestically speaking and not really asking or expecting much help from the rest of the family.

So could it be that rather than modelling "clean" versus "tidy" we should model both genders participating? But that's pretty difficult given what artparent said above (I do feel so blessed to not have to work, and to be able to homeschool the kids, and I owe DH for that, definitely).

[vancouverlori]

Originally Posted by artparent

so he gives so much to me, the least i can do is take care of him so he can do the work.

The world is really rather more complicated than we thought it was when we were young...

I did forget slightly about that aspect, I realize now as I think over Moominmama's thread. I guess from my perspective, I do still work outside the home, so it's different for me. But I also like my work, so I think it might "kill me" not to work at all. So if my husband needed shirts ironed he really would be on his own, but he's also the organized type who would iron a bunch at once and wouldn't stress about it. And if he needed me to do it for whatever reason and he asked me to, I probably would happily do it...

Calvin appears to have had a great time at Hula Hoot. We were talking about who he had played with. He mentioned a few names, and said he'd talked about being friends with one of them. Apparently he also asked Emma to be his girlfriend, but she said he was a little too young to fall in love.

[Ksenia]

IMO, division of labour can be done a lot of ways, and they're all "fair". Now that my income is the lowest that it's ever been in my adult life, I see my responsibilities differently, and yes, dh does need my support while he is bringing in 1.5 incomes. He absolutely should hang up his coat, but it's entirely reasonable for me to assume responsibility for the majority of household management, the way he is assuming responsibility for the majority of breadwinning.

Originally Posted by Piglet68

So could it be that rather than modelling "clean" versus "tidy" we should model both genders participating?

Yes, good point!I think that is a huge down side of extreme labour division like what is happening in my household and in many homelearning households, where the mother is doing kids + house most of the time, and the father is doing breadwinning. It's a generational issue because dh is throwing back to the extreme labour division that happened in his family, and he is lacking the imagination to see it working differently in our family given our choice to homeschool. I see it as a huge problem that my children see me constantly doing housework while they see dh sitting around on the computer a lot when he is at home. He says he's working, but to small children that may not appear to be a productive activity, and it certainly doesn't have a visibile result like toys off the table or clean dishes. It's hard to send the message that "this is what we do in our family" that is not true. I feel that I have to work twice as hard to develop a clean-up-after-yourself culture without the role modelling from dh.

Originally Posted by artparent

my 9 year old is interested in learning how to do lots of things, especially cooking.

I was 8 or 9 yo when I baked my first cake. I graduated from my Easy Bake oven while my mother was sleeping . I figured if my mother could do it, it couldn't be that hard .

[Storm Bride]

Originally Posted by vancouverlori

Apparently he also asked Emma to be his girlfriend, but she said he was a little too young to fall in love.

They were playing together quite a bit, but she didn't tell me about that. How funny. My kids were really happy to see Calvin there.

Originally Posted by Ksenia

IMO, division of labour can be done a lot of ways, and they're all "fair". Now that my income is the lowest that it's ever been in my adult life, I see my responsibilities differently, and yes, dh does need my support while he is bringing in 1.5 incomes. He absolutely should hang up his coat, but it's entirely reasonable for me to assume responsibility for the majority of household management, the way he is assuming responsibility for the majority of breadwinning.

I totally agree about this, actually. But...

Yes, good point!I think that is a huge down side of extreme labour division like what is happening in my household and in many homelearning households, where the mother is doing kids + house most of the time, and the father is doing breadwinning. It's a generational issue because dh is throwing back to the extreme labour division that happened in his family, and he is lacking the imagination to see it working differently in our family given our choice to homeschool.

There's also this to consider. When I was 6, I was at school all day. Mom had more uencumbered chances to deal with the cooking/cleaning side of things than I do. DH and I talk about this stuff a lot. IMO, I'm not pulling my weight, and haven't been for a while. Some of that is related to pregnancy fatigue. Some of it is related to the fact that I truly and honestly crashed after we lost Aaron, and the emotional garbage after my assorted unwanted c-sections. Some of it is just...inertia. I have a couple good days, then backslide. OTOH, dh also says my job is the kids, not the house. The house is a shared responsibility. There's a lot that lands on me, for obvious reasons. It makes way more sense for me to do laundry - I'm here all day (okay - no, I'm not - but I'm here more during the day than dh is) and it's a lot harder to shift a load of laundry from outside the house. Even when I get back on track, I won't be doing all of it. DH and I don't want our kids to see mom doing all the housework. We also want them all to get the idea that the home is the responsibility of everyone living in it. When things are functioning, I do the weekday cooking, and he does most of the weekend cooking. (Please note that we have a baby - things aren't functioning, and he's doing a lot of cooking.) I do most lunches and most breakfasts. I do the "schooling". He does the breadwinning. We really work mostly on a "what needs to be done right now, and who can do it right now" basis.

Fortunately for me, dh is one of four boys, and his parents didn't believe in children lazing around. DH couldn't cook when I met him - but he'd cleaned lots of bathrooms, and loaded dishwashers, and cleaned carpets, and looked after pets, etc., etc. If nothing else, he'd do housework, just to reduce the chances that our children won't do it.

[Piglet68]

Hey everyone. Well, the meeting today went great. We ended up with no babysitter so the kids sat in the car in the parking lot of the realtor's office watching Charlie and Lola on my laptop (whatever did parents do before technology?). They were so awesome, no tears, no fighting (I went and checked on them a couple of times and DD knew she could come in and get me if need be).

The owner/builder is such a nice guy and basically willing to work within whatever budget we give him. Which is good because DH got a wakeup call as to how much a custom house costs, lol. I think he's having palpitations, hee hee. Unfortunately, we won't be able to live on the property while they build (the city won't let them do that), but apparently subdivision approval should only take a few weeks, phew! They won't start building until March because of the weather anyways, and if we're lucky it will be done by August. So a bit of a wait, but not as bad as we thought it might be.

The part that is killing me is there is still no "deal". It's not "done", kwim? First we have to send him some floor plans and design ideas, then he'll give us a rough quote, then we go to his design guy and get the plans drawn up, at which point we'll then get a solid price, sign a contract for sale, and start handing him our money. Until we sign that contract it's not a done deal, so I'm still afraid to say "we have a place". Even though, AFAIC, this is IT even if I have to live in 800 square feet! I cannot tell you how DONE i'm feeling with this whole house-hunting thing. We should have a real deal worked out in the next couple of weeks, I hope! And then I can finally say "we bought a place!".

[Storm Bride]

Wishing you all the best, Mariah. I've given up on house hunting, even in my head, but I love to hear about other people having things work out well. This property sounds wonderful.

[Ksenia]

Wow piglet . It sounds confusing yet exciting! Let me know when to break out the champagne glass smiley, but I'm going to save it for now . Have you read A Pattern Language? A must read for someone designing a custom home, IMO!! You might also want to read about Feng Shui too.

[widemouthedfrog]

Ksenia, your comment about learning how to bake made me grin. I also learned at a young age, and dd also cooks by herself. She invented and made a muffin recipe with very little help the other day - just needed me to grab the flour from a top shelf and needed help putting things into the oven, of course!

I'm more on Ellaine's end of the spectrum when it comes to housework and kids. Dd responds quite well when I ask her to help me with a specific task as part of a larger one (ie: can you please get the milk out of the fridge so we can make the pancakes?). When I am busy with something and she needs me to help her, I ask her to do a task that will allow us both to do her item in a few minutes. She finishes feeding the cats so that I can help her peel the banana, for example.

I clean clutter constantly but I am a lousy scrubber. My mom was a good housekeeper and spent all Saturday every Saturday cleaning the house. My dad went grocery shopping on Saturday. I order groceries and avoid scrubbing so that we don't spend our Saturdays doing either of those things.

My dh is actually very diligent at doing the chores that he does do. However, he comes from a family with a super organized mom, and I am the one who organizes everything for our family. I pay the bills, get the groceries, set up bulk food orders, do appointments...or it really, truly doesn't get done. Oddly enough, he is very organized at his job, just not at home. He works all of the time, though, so I don't think that home organization is a priority item.

[tiffani]

ooooh mariah, very exciting!! fingers crossed!!

we just decided today that we'd implement a 'chore chart' with one really small daily job for each of us, parents included. for me, this will be on top of all the other daily maintenance stuff that needs to be done, (and mark is really great about housework -- mostly he's a dishes guy, which works for me! ) but there are things that just NEVER get done in our house, like dusting, wiping down windowills and cleaning windows, and others that rarely get done, like vacuuming and mopping etc. I have a friend here with 7 kids and they start cooking at about age 3 (her 3 year old was browning the ground beef the other night) and with that many kids, they each get a job each day (like "clean the bathroom") because with that many people in a house it really all does need to be done daily. I feel like most days we have almost the entire day to do whatever we want, why not throw in a housework job each day? they'll still help put away groceries, do other things as I ask (at least I hope they will) but there are so many things that need to be done but just never are, and I'm kind of tired of our house being a disaster. so we'll see how that goes... I figure if it's a small enough job, they won't complain. I'm hoping to not have to remind them to do it either, but we'll see...

I'll let you know how it goes! right now we have 3 neighbor girls over for a sleepover, and I'm ready to park them in front of a movie and watch season 5 of LOST.

[sea island mama]

Some thoughts on the 'chore' discussion:

Originally Posted by kdtmom2be

I've been trying to get her to take her shoes off and put them together off the mat at the back door (rather than laying scattered in the middle of the rug...) but it's not sinking in yet.

Don't hold your breath!! DD (9) still doesn't do it very often...of course when dh leaves his jackets & shoes all over the place, it doesn't help .

Originally Posted by Ksenia

IMO, division of labour can be done a lot of ways, and they're all "fair". Now that my income is the lowest that it's ever been in my adult life, I see my responsibilities differently, and yes, dh does need my support while he is bringing in 1.5 incomes. He absolutely should hang up his coat, but it's entirely reasonable for me to assume responsibility for the majority of household management, the way he is assuming responsibility for the majority of breadwinning.

I agree! And, like you, I often find it quite overwhelming...here's my facebook post from just before I caught up on the last couple of days discussion here:
Everywhere I look is a mess on top of a mess beside a mess...how does anyone ever catch up??!!

Dh also works shiftwork (5 on 5 off) & I base a lot things on the assumption that he's not home. I find I have to look at the calendar a lot to figure out anything more than a few days in advance as far as meals, appointments, etc. I just know that I can't plan any kind of weekly family activity (movie night, family meeting, etc.).

Speaking of family meetings, we had one a couple of years ago...between coming up with a not-too-complicated agenda (can't throw it all at the kids at once!), doing up the minutes so I didn't forget everything we talked about, and trying to schedule another one (see previous paragraph ), we haven't done it since. Maybe I'll try again in the new year.

In reading some of your ideas here, I came up with a checklist for the kids for the day. I'd love some feedback...is this too much to start with (it's really mostly stuff they're doing already)? After seeing it complete, I'll split it up so they each have their own. What do you think?

KIDS’ ROUTINES

MORNING

NICOLA:
oDress & put PJs away
oPut breakfast dishes in sink or dishwasher
oBrush teeth & hair

DANIEL:
oDress & put PJs away
oPut breakfast dishes in sink or dishwasher
oBrush teeth
oFeed cats

ANY TIME

NICOLA:
oClean out litter box
oClear table of items not being used right now
oPick up & put away possessions in living room
oPut away toys, etc. in bedroom & play area
oTake upstairs anything that needs to go
oHelp mom with something

DANIEL:
oClear table of items not being used right now
oPick up & put away possessions in living room
oPut away toys, etc. in bedroom & play area
oTake upstairs anything that needs to go
oHelp mom with something

EVENING:

NICOLA:
oPut dinner dishes in sink or dishwasher
oPut clothes in wash after changing into PJs
oCheck around for anything left out (books, toys, dishes, glasses)
oBrush teeth

DANIEL:
oPut dinner dishes in sink or dishwasher
oPut clothes in wash after changing into PJs
oCheck around for anything left out (books, toys, dishes, glasses)
oBrush teeth

Originally Posted by Piglet68

Hey everyone. Well, the meeting today went great. We ended up with no babysitter so the kids sat in the car in the parking lot of the realtor's office watching Charlie and Lola on my laptop (whatever did parents do before technology?). They were so awesome, no tears, no fighting (I went and checked on them a couple of times and DD knew she could come in and get me if need be).

Mariah

Originally Posted by Ksenia

Wow piglet . It sounds confusing yet exciting! Let me know when to break out the champagne glass smiley, but I'm going to save it for now . Have you read A Pattern Language? A must read for someone designing a custom home, IMO!! You might also want to read about Feng Shui too.

How about: http://www.notsobighouse.com/ ? Amazing what they can squeeze into (relatively) small houses!