SN Assessments and giftedness (long)

[siobhang]

Question for those of you whose kids are in the public school system. Did you ever have an issue where the school was assessing your child for learning disabilities where giftedness may actually be (part of) the problem?

Quick summary: my oldest just started K and is having trouble with his teacher - or more correctly, his teacher recommended a full blown assessment for him for special needs due to his poor writing/drawing skills, inability to focus when working on worksheets, and poor social skills. She also noted some language issues but the things she has identified (echo language and short, simple sentence) we only notice when our son is VERY anxious. Her biggest beef is that he doesn't color inside the lines and doesn't do representational art unless seriously coaxed.

BUT he knows how to form all his letters - he just has a hard time drawing the shapes correctly. When he is "unfocused" on the worksheets, he gets all the answers right - he just Xs the answer instead of coloring in the pumpkin or whatever the instructions say. He scored a 171 on the standard reading assessment for our county (benchmark is 62, goal for K completion is 161) and we predict he will do equally well on the math assessment, since he has been able to do everything they are assessing for a year or two at least. He is reading - taught himself with some guidance from us - and has pretty amazing memory and problem solving skills.

The school will be doing an IQ test as part of the assessment, but so far from conversations, they seem really focused on Aspergers or ADHD. They haven't seen some of the impressive things we have seen (like being able to give turn for turn directions - with street names - between his house and many locations like his school, the pediatricians, etc). I am hoping with more scores like the reading or math assessments or an IQ test, they will start taking how smart he is into account.

The more I read and think about it, the more I think that at least some of his problem is that a. he is bored, b. his thinking patterns are unusual for a 6 year old and c. he is prone to question authority - he groups himself with adults rather than kids and doesn't understand why he cannot do all the things adults can do.

I see a lot of asynchronous development in him. He gets very frustrated when his cognitive ability outstrips his physical abilities (like with writing or drawing) and as a result tends to avoid things that are hard for him. He also is highly observant and as a result, I suspect that this is the cause of his anxiety in situations where he feels out of control or where is expectations are not being met. Explaining what is happening makes a HUGE difference in his ability to cope with change.

We have been intensively working with him on his handwriting and seen some real progress, so I really think the issue there is one of muscle memory/avoiding hard things so he hasn't practiced as much as many other kids have his age.

Not saying that there may be other underlying issues too (anxiety, especially around social interactions with kids his age, and we are seeing a play therapist to help with this).

However, I am getting frustrated at the teacher who seems to focus on the bad stuff that seems less consequential than the good stuff - or not really spending time to try to "get" him. I found that I can get much better performance out of him on many tasks than the teacher can - he KNOWS this stuff, but doesn't always take the time to slow down and get it down right. Or he gets frustrated and refuses to try - if I reframe the challenge for him, he will try again.

Anyone else have this sort of issue? I also feel sort of weird telling the school - "he is just too smart for your class"- especially when I get the feeling they would just assume I am a typical denial mom...

[EarthRootsStarSoul]

You should have him tested by your own private developmental psychologist. I've heard they can do a very comprehensive exam to profile all of his areas of development and abilities. It would be necessary to have this to set up a useful IEP for your son.

[siobhang]

Originally Posted by EarthRootsStarSoul

You should have him tested by your own private developmental psychologist. I've heard they can do a very comprehensive exam to profile all of his areas of development and abilities. It would be necessary to have this to set up a useful IEP for your son.

Do you think I should do this before the results of their analysis come back or wait? I've been dithering, to be honest.

[heatherdeg]

(checks to make sure her almost 6yo IS in his bed)

Ummm... yeah. But we came at it from a different place. My son was profoundly delayed as an infant, had tons of Early Intervention therapy (and some dietary intervention that, for my kid, was a HUGE factor) and progressed to where we are now tested out of Special Ed as of September (although he's still getting some time owed for OT) and he has a long overdue neuro eval to either update or rule out his PDD-NOS diagnosis.

In our case, all the Special Ed testing showed what they are calling "giftedness". But the thing is, MOST of the testing focused on "recall"/memory more than actual thinking. So he MAY be gifted, but he may not be. And he's been reading for a few years already--so there ya go: let's fill the memory with stuff that makes a lot of these tests kiddie play for him... ya know? The last round of testing showed him decoding at the age equivalency of a 20yo with comprehension at 4th grade. We were in the exact same situation as you are, but when he aged into the district at age 3. They wanted him in the preschool disabled classroom and I was like "Ummm... he's READING and teaching himself some match concepts". But they were focused on the deficits and felt that the advances were "bonuses" and didn't need to be considered. I refused to let him go to the preschool disabled classroom--knowing full well that it was a behavior nightmare waiting to happen.

Ds was in daycare and preschool until about a year ago, when we decided to keep him home. We'd been through mixed special needs preschool (some neurotypical kids and some with all sorts of special needs--physical or neuro), Montessori, an eclectic private preschool... he just didn't really fit anywhere. And at one point, the eclectic private school director told us to have him tested for auditory processing problems because his behavior looked like it to her (and she was right).

It's fine to have the school test him and then if you don't agree with the results (all of which you should get copies of) have them evaluated by someone else. They can't administer the same tests (a certain amount of time has to pass), but they can administer something else more appropriate and/or interpret the results differently.

Some parents worry about arguing with the schools for lack of an education degree or not having been a teacher. And some schools would reinforce that mindset. But some won't. The bottom line is: if they're the type that aren't going to value your input, you have nothing to really LOSE by giving it. And if they are the kind that DO value your input, then you have everything to gain.

These things are generally done by an entire team of people--so try not to focus on his current teacher. She will be one of five or more people that may be involved in this stuff. Over the course of the last 3 years, we've had different people come and go to the team meetings (it doesn't always have to be the same people, just the same TYPES of people... so a regular ed teacher, a social worker, etc.). I've found that usually, you will find someone on the team that understands what you're trying to say even if nobody else does. Or someone that's going to agree with something that's uncomfortable for them because it's not the norm but they see that for YOUR child, it makes sense. It may not be the majority, but just one of them is a huge help. So be sure to go around the table and ask each of them what THEY think about what you're saying and ask for their feedback--because they may not offer it up on their own.

Don't go in with any expectations of what they're going to say or do. Hear them out. You may not agree with everything they say or offer, but in and amongst what you disagree with may be diamonds in the rough that you can work with if you stay calm and open. Then again, they may give you the diamonds already polished.

For us, we keep our son home now. I don't know if that's even remotely an option or desire for you. It has nothing to do with any animosity with my district--in fact it's quite the opposite. I'm in a state that does not guarantee or have legislation about special ed services for homeschooled kids, but my son still receives therapies without being in a classroom in a district that is truly stretched even moreso than everyone else around us (we're in the bottom 1/3 of the state rankings with a TON of district issues that have us at some of the highest taxes in the state). They know that I have been reasonable and that I am always open to listening. It hasn't always been pleasant, but we all respect one another--ya know?

For us, it was just a better situation for him to be at home where he can learn asynchronously and not constantly feel like an outsider in a room full of kids who are just not where he's at.

[Aridel]

I would get on the list. There can be a wait, sometimes, and it's easier to cancel an appointment than to get in quickly if you feel you need support or information.

[siobhang]

{lots of awesome advice snipped}

Thank you. I really appreciate your experience. I do like a few members of the team - the guidance counselor, the vice principal, the school psychologist, and the social worker. I had an extended interview with the social worker and I definitely think he heard me about how with Ant, motivation and understanding what is going on is sooooooo important. The social worker hadn't seen/heard his reading assessment skills and seems surprised at the score. I think that had a fair amount to do with him "believing" me.

And if it comes to it, I could probably have him move teachers, though the school would not care for it.

Originally Posted by heatherdeg

For us, it was just a better situation for him to be at home where he can learn asynchronously and not constantly feel like an outsider in a room full of kids who are just not where he's at.

Homeschooling isn't an option for us, for multiple reasons, though we do strongly feel that we are obligated to be the stewards of our kids' education, and will supplement and/or direct it as needed. We may explore private school for next year.

Ant has a lot of friends at the school and I am very involved in our community which has a lot of support for the school. I feel like he will have a lot of opportunities IF we can get him well integrated in. Dunno, still trying to process it all.

[joensally]

We've been down this road as well.

What's the timeline for full psych-ed? This will make a huge difference in teacher's attitudes IME. If it's not imminent, I'd consider doing it privately.

We saw an educational consultant re DS before (or during??) kindie. He said that it was all about the teacher, and that we'd have to take it year by year, which has turned out to be absolutely true. This was a hard pill to swallow for me as I wanted my kids to be integrated into a school community with continuity.

IME, we've needed to be DS's greatest advocates. When teachers/other school folks have wanted to scurry down the wrong rabbit hole, we've had to redefine what they're seeing for them so that we're collectively on track for what DS needs - and it wasn't generally an improved ability to colour within the lines .

DS was in a typical kindie class and it was a bust. We homeschooled grade 1, which was hard as I still worked 3/4 time, although mostly from home. Academics weren't the issue, it was filling his day when I had to work. Now, he's in a phenomenal gr1-3 class, and it's all about the teacher.

I have to say that turning 7 seems to have made a huge difference developmentally.

Some great books:

http://books.google.com/books?id=NQr...age&q=&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=Okq...slabeled+child

(and here's their blog/site):
http://eideneurolearningblog.blogspot.com/
http://mislabeledchild.com/html/Library/index.html


http://books.google.com/books?id=kPt...age&q=&f=false

(the above is great - a very positive spin on complicated kids, in plain language)

http://books.google.com/books?id=J5M...age&q=&f=false

(not saying exec function is an issue, but often it is with kids who look spectrumy to teachers)

[minkin03]

i'm having some similar issues with my dd as well. she just turned 6 in july and is in 1st grade. her teacher is hinting that she thinks dd is adhd, yet i don't really have any of the issues with her at home as the teacher does in class. so i'm reluctant to stick a label on her based on just this teacher's assesment (her kindergarten teacher never had any issues with her).

so my question is should i go through the school system to get her evaluated and an iq test. or should i go privately? and if you do recommend going privately how do you find somebody? the closest places i can find online are 2hours away and very expensive (one was $2400).

and fwiw my dd has a history of hearing problems (fluid in her ears) and she's being treated by an ENT. so i'm a little miffed that the teacher is trying to suggest this diagnosis when she knows there are other problems going on right now.

(sorry for threadjacking).

[SkySunSea]

You've gotten great advice...and it's been very interesting to read such similar stories to our family, although our daughter is now 9.

Definitely get her tested through the school district if they are willing to do the IQ and other tests. Also seeing a good private psychologist who has a strong basis in complex kids is a good idea. They can supplement each other.

For all, take a deep breath and as one poster said, it can be a year-by-year basis. We had frustrating years K-2, with a private school and teachers who didn't "get" our daughter. From Kinder she was visiting the principal's office on a regular basis and had continuing behavioral and academic performance problems. They focused on those. Since she didn't do well on writing and was "struggling" with math they disregarded our private test results. Can you imagine thinking at a much higher level and not having the skills to express them in writing? Getting bored and frustrated with simple math skills that in your mind you already mastered and shouldn't have to do over-and-over-and-over? Getting in trouble because you didn't write down your steps but got the right answer? Having all those issues at an early age is difficult. Now, in our situation our daughter does have ADHD (inherited physical disorder, strong family history, including me). We now have a wonderful, wonderful teacher as she is in the Gifted and Talented Education (GATE) program in the San Diego school district. She finally "gets" her. Most teachers don't know the signs or understand giftedness, certainly not giftedness that does not translate into academic excellence. I seriously just about cried when I met with her current teacher and she really, really saw our daughter for who she was.

There are no private schools for gifted kids in SD. What I have found is that the public school district is better for our daughter than the Catholic school she was attending. Private schools, here at least, have a tendency to be about a year ahead in their academic instruction. But that does not address the needs of the kids that may need not only grade-advanced, but accelerated and differentiated instruction. All kids are different, even those in the GATE program are not all at the same place intellectually and academically so you need teachers who can handle that. Including handling kids that are actually smarter than they are in some ways...'cause that happens.

Good luck and just take it one day at a time...it's good that you are getting started now. And I am glad you found this community. It is one of the few around that is active about giftedness. It can be an annoyingly touchy subject.

Michelle

[siobhang]

Thanks everyone.

I have made a request for an appointment for a private eval, because it usually takes months to get the appointment. As someone said, I can always cancel it if needed.

The school assessment is due Jan 12th. I get the feeling that the teacher is just waiting for the eval before trying to address anything with him, though I don't know because she has not contacted me at all other than the standard parent teacher conferene.

However, I have just made a request from the guidance councelor who is managing the assessment for an update on where we are, which assessments have been completed, and if we can see copies of any that are already completed/appropriate for review. I also had to expressly request that the k teacher update me weekly on ant's progress since we have been actively working with him at home. If she does not start to update me (since she was the one who started all this), I will raise it with the vice principal. I am not willing to wait around for the eval if there are things we can do now to make his classroom experience more positive, YKWIM?

His play therapist today said that she thinks he has some mild ADD that is probably related to his intelligence and won't need medication but rather skills building and good teaching. She also thinks a big part of the problem is mismatch between the teacher (by the book, left brain, linear thinker) and Ant (strongly right brained, visual, non-linear thinker). For example, he got it "wrong" when he tried to color a horse blue because "horses aren't blue" (despite the fact that the book they are teaching too "Brown Bear, Brown Bear" has a freakin' blue horse in it- and a purple cat!!!

He also has some social skills deficits that we can work on. And anxiety as well, probably related to the mismatch between the world in his head and reality... I think he will be much happier when he gets older, ya know?

Thanks again and I welcome other BTDT advice.

[siobhang]

Originally Posted by minkin03

i'm having some similar issues with my dd as well. she just turned 6 in july and is in 1st grade. her teacher is hinting that she thinks dd is adhd, yet i don't really have any of the issues with her at home as the teacher does in class. so i'm reluctant to stick a label on her based on just this teacher's assesment (her kindergarten teacher never had any issues with her).

so my question is should i go through the school system to get her evaluated and an iq test. or should i go privately? and if you do recommend going privately how do you find somebody? the closest places i can find online are 2hours away and very expensive (one was $2400).

Assuming you are in the US. You can have a free eval thru the school and they need to complete the evaluation in a certain time period. This is federal law. some websites below are good for information. I believe you just have to request the evaluation through the school, and make sure you include an IQ test with the assessment.

http://www.nichcy.org/Pages/Home.aspx
http://idea.ed.gov/explore/home

and fwiw my dd has a history of hearing problems (fluid in her ears) and she's being treated by an ENT. so i'm a little miffed that the teacher is trying to suggest this diagnosis when she knows there are other problems going on right now.

(sorry for threadjacking).

If she does have hearing issues, she may qualify under IDEA which may give her some additional accommodations such as sitting near the front, a desk speaker, visual instructions, etc. I would definitely explore it- my best friend was hearing impaired most of her life but undiagnosed, and it turns out when she finally got it examined, she had significant enough disability to qualify under ADA. Her entire academic and professional career would have been much better if she had known and made accommodations (she now has hearing aids and they have made a tremendous amount of difference in quality of life).

Oh, and my friend is absolutely gifted - which is why she was able to "hide" her hearing disability for so many years. She learned to compensate by making intelligent guesses and even some basic lip reading. But why make someone go through that?

[joensally]

Originally Posted by siobhang

For example, he got it "wrong" when he tried to color a horse blue because "horses aren't blue" (despite the fact that the book they are teaching too "Brown Bear, Brown Bear" has a freakin' blue horse in it- and a purple cat!!!

.

That'd be a deal breaker for me, right there. In fact, I interviewed kindie teachers and flat out said "he will not do things as you expect or is typical - he won't colour the rainbow tidily or make the craft you plan. He'll have his own interpretation. How would you work with that?" Unfortunately, while we picked the teacher who answered this question well, we still had a carpy kindergarten year, but hey, at least his blue horse was accepted .

[siobhang]

Originally Posted by joensally

That'd be a deal breaker for me, right there. In fact, I interviewed kindie teachers and flat out said "he will not do things as you expect or is typical - he won't colour the rainbow tidily or make the craft you plan. He'll have his own interpretation. How would you work with that?" .

they are "supposed" to do differentiated instruction for K-2 (Gifted programs officially start at third grade), but so far I am not seeing any differentiation at all. Not that I would know, the K teacher is so uncommunicative...

I picked up an ebook copy of "When Labels don't Fit" and I also got a copy of "mislabeled child" and both have really helped me reinterpret Ant's behavior.

For example, I was speaking with our nanny who has been working with him on representational drawing, and we both found that when we help him break tasks down into smaller pieces and identify the sequences, he performs MUCH better and enjoys the task. And in fact, his drawing shows that he conceptualizes higher visual spacial analysis (he drew a 3d table for example on his own, but needed help breaking the elements of the drawing into steps).

I don't think we will pull him out, BUT I also think we may need to heavily supplement his education this year to compensate for a teacher who cannot give him what he needs, and watch the situation to see whether the school cannot supply it or whether this is temporary...

[LauraLoo]

Originally Posted by siobhang

The school will be doing an IQ test as part of the assessment, but so far from conversations, they seem really focused on Aspergers or ADHD. .

I've quickly read through the replies - very quickly! But I wanted to point out to you that only a developmental pediatrician or pediatric neuropsych is able to dx these. A school counselor or psychologist can not make this dx. And it would definitely bother me if the testing the school conducted was biased towards a dx of any sort. If you can swing it, definitely do private testing.

Has anyone recommended the "Mislabeled Child" by the Eides or "Misdiagnosis and Dual Diagnoses of Gifted Children and Adults," by Webb, et al.? Both of these books are excellent. The Eides have a website -- it is full of great information.

[heatherdeg]

Originally Posted by LauraLoo

I've quickly read through the replies - very quickly! But I wanted to point out to you that only a developmental pediatrician or pediatric neuropsych is able to dx these. A school counselor or psychologist can not make this dx.

... but some schools DO employ a psychiatrist (or subcontract out to one) and therefore can legitimately obtain diagnosis. Definitely not the NORM where I live, but I had a foster child whose education records showed this to be the case (in my state we have full access to that).

Originally Posted by LauraLoo

And it would definitely bother me if the testing the school conducted was biased towards a dx of any sort. If you can swing it, definitely do private testing.

Well, realistically, most testing is done because there is a specific "symptom" that needs to be assessed. I'm not sure how common it is that everyone thinks SOMEthing is wrong but they have no clue what it is and therefore test EVERYthing... ya know? So they would need to direct testing to validate or rule out the issue they think it is.

Where it would bother me is when they ONLY test for the issue they're looking for when there are other possibilities; or they don't test for other things when their initial testing shows no problems but everyone agrees there's an issue (which led to the initial testing).

[LauraLoo]

Originally Posted by heatherdeg

Well, realistically, most testing is done because there is a specific "symptom" that needs to be assessed. I'm not sure how common it is that everyone thinks SOMEthing is wrong but they have no clue what it is and therefore test EVERYthing... ya know? So they would need to direct testing to validate or rule out the issue they think it is.

Where it would bother me is when they ONLY test for the issue they're looking for when there are other possibilities; or they don't test for other things when their initial testing shows no problems but everyone agrees there's an issue (which led to the initial testing).

Yes - you said it much better.
For ADHD, in particular, there are so many things to be ruled out *before* an ADHD dx. So, if someone only looks at behavior, but doesn't rule out potential underlying causes, you can easily have a misdiagnosis. I know that school funding can be limited for testing; It would be a shame to not do the due diligence necessary for the right dx *if* a dx was applicable.

[siobhang]

Originally Posted by LauraLoo

Yes - you said it much better.
For ADHD, in particular, there are so many things to be ruled out *before* an ADHD dx. So, if someone only looks at behavior, but doesn't rule out potential underlying causes, you can easily have a misdiagnosis. I know that school funding can be limited for testing; It would be a shame to not do the due diligence necessary for the right dx *if* a dx was applicable.

Agree with both of you.

Our play therapist is leaning towards gifted + ADD + visual-spacial learning. She is NOT suggesting medication at all - she thinks it is more a question of skills building on how to build attention span for things that are not of interest/breaking tasks down, etc. I found reframing tasks so he gets why they are important gives him a lot more focus.

I asked for a weekly check-in from the teacher as we are doing a lot of support work at home and therapy on writing, anxiety, and social skills - what I got back was a proposed weekly checklist. And what a checklist!

The checklist is full of negatives, with a space for marks to show how many times he has performed the negative behavior each day.

Some Gems:

"does not seem to listen when spoken to"

"often avoids, dislikes, or is reluctant to engage in tasks that require sustained mental effort"

"often fidgets with hands or feet or squirms in his chair or plays with his tools"

"leaves seat or calls out to adults in classroom in situations in which remaining seated and quiet is expected"

"often does not follow through on instructions and fails to finish schoolwork independently"

WTF?

I am speaking with the guidance counselor tomorrow am...

[aran]

Wow. I would be steamed if there were only negatives on the list. If the teacher is filling that same list out every day, it means she is now *looking for* those negative behaviors throughout the day, and I think, that makes it less likely for her to notice of acknowledge the positive behaviors.

I have been lurking on this thread because my kindy aged DS sounds so, so similar to yours. We have him at home, though, and only deal with issues like yours in limited settings, like our once-a-week full day homeschool co-op. We have had to make herculean sacrifices to deal effectively with the intensity of (possible) giftedness coupled with anxiety, sensitivity, and ADHD-appearing behavior. Just knowing the effort we put in, I can imagine there are probably quite a few educators who would not have the patience or motivation to see both sides of the coin with a 2E kid like mine. I hope there are other people on your son's team at the school system (e.g., guidance counselor) with a more open mind than it sounds like you are seeing from the main teacher.

[heatherdeg]

Originally Posted by siobhang

Agree with both of you.

Our play therapist is leaning towards gifted + ADD + visual-spacial learning. She is NOT suggesting medication at all - she thinks it is more a question of skills building on how to build attention span for things that are not of interest/breaking tasks down, etc. I found reframing tasks so he gets why they are important gives him a lot more focus.

Kids who are advanced thinkers often need to understand the purpose of what they're doing so that they can figure out how to do it well.

Originally Posted by siobhang

I asked for a weekly check-in from the teacher as we are doing a lot of support work at home and therapy on writing, anxiety, and social skills - what I got back was a proposed weekly checklist. And what a checklist!

The checklist is full of negatives, with a space for marks to show how many times he has performed the negative behavior each day.

Some Gems:

"does not seem to listen when spoken to"

"often avoids, dislikes, or is reluctant to engage in tasks that require sustained mental effort"

"often fidgets with hands or feet or squirms in his chair or plays with his tools"

"leaves seat or calls out to adults in classroom in situations in which remaining seated and quiet is expected"

"often does not follow through on instructions and fails to finish schoolwork independently"

WTF?

I am speaking with the guidance counselor tomorrow am...

I'm not sure if you already spoke to the gc, but I would address it such that you are trying to address the problems while simultaneously identifying what positives exist because 1) you're working with him at home and want to see if you're having and impact; and 2) you want to identify strengths that may be able to be used to build on and/or manipulated to help with some of the issues.

I'd hold my comments about her desire to focus on negativity without looking to build on what works until the very end. But you may not be the biotch that I am like that and therefore may not have those kinds of snotty remarks.