Nutrition/Immunology 101. Sticky please.

[chasmyn]

Sally Fallon has some instructions in "Nourishing Traditions".

There is also some information here:

Growing and Using Sprouts

I have a question re: sourdough bread. What about Ezekiel bread? It's made from sprouted grains, is it good as well?

Also re: minerals - will I get them in the All One powder, complete nutrition information here:

All One Powder

Does this include minerals, or do I want to get a separate mineral supplement such as the ones mentioned? And do I need to continue the vitamin powder if I am taking a mineral supplement? We eat 95% organic/whole foods, drink kefir/yogurt we make ourselves.

[Planta]

Originally Posted by JaneS

Planta,

You've only been raw 5 months and you are arguing it to the death here???

I think I'd believe your advice on nutrition better when you conceived and birthed a child under that diet and raised the babe to the age of 2. I've lived two lifetimes during these last 3.5 years let me tell you.

Look, I can see I'm not welcomed on this thread. I only wanted to bring up this different angle of looking at nutrition and health and I think my posts were only as long as the ones I was answering to. I was under the impression that someone might benefit from this idea because I did tremendously (and I also only accidentally came in contact with it).
I might conceive and birth under this diet in the not so distant future. It has been done by others with much success.

[Momtezuma Tuatara]

I only know what to do for myself, because I know what I eat, what I don't, what my mineral deficiencies are, so I take what I think I need. It would be hard for anyone to advise (apart from a desire to put money in their own pocket....)

[chlobo]

How would one go about finding out what the mineral deficiencies are in the US? I read the selenium/sheep article. Is there an organization that actually tests & tracks deficiencies throughout the US? Since I get my food from all over (exceptin the summer when I am a member of a CSA) I guess I need to know.

[rootzdawta]

Planta . . . I don't think you're not welcome and I've been enjoying your reasoning on raw food. I just have to take what you are saying with a grain of salt because you haven't been raw very long. When you have been raw for say 5 to 6 years, had a baby while raw and are thriving (not just surviving), then I'd be inclined to say, "That Planta really knows what she's talking about" and I'd been willing to maybe give it a try based on your success. Five months is just too short a time (IMHO) for anyone to advocate for something so wholeheartedly and expect everyone to accept it as fact.

And FYI, I'm trying to add more and more raw foods to my diet but everything in moderation and I don't think I"ll ever be 100% raw but maybe.

[Mirzam]

Originally Posted by Planta

There are, of course, some fruits such as bananas that seem to behave like cooked sweets. But maybe it is because they are good for us in the big amounts that our body tolerates them.

Hmmm.... I don't think so. Apes eat unripe bananas but when given ripe bananas they become highly agressive and start fighting each other for the fruit, they basically get a sugar high, like any child would.

So tell me Planta, do you honestly think this woman looks healthy? She has a website expounding the many health benefits of raw food:

http://www.rawschool.com/photos.htm

[pumpkinsmama]

Originally Posted by uccomama

http://www.rawschool.com/photos.htm

preferably only one food at a time, since each food requires a different chemical environment for digestion.

Is there any truth to this? On one hand it sounds sensible. On the other, silly. It just goes to show how little I know about digestion.

I personally am enjoying being able to learn about others ideas of nutrition. I think everyone with a real interest in the topic is welcome here.

[Momtezuma Tuatara]

Originally Posted by sunshinestarr

Wow. What a read!
I have a question: Can someone tell me when I should take my selenium supplement? Before a meal, during, after? With what other vitamins/minerals? I took a half capsule (100mcgs) after a meal today and I have a pounding headache from it.
I'm trying to combat it by drinking water.
Thanks!

Was it the selenium that gave you the headache? Or did you eat something that might have? It's hard to know.

Like I say, I eat Brazils most of the time so don't have that issue.

But I guess Brazils could give someone a headache too if they were allergic...

[Momtezuma Tuatara]

ACtually pumpkinsmama, I've always preferentially eaten that way. The kids think its a joke. I will sit down and eat a whole plate of brussel sprouts for tea, or half a head of lettuce... lunch time, maybe I'll just eat tomatoes. Breakfast I go up to the grapevine and eat grapes until the shut of valve in the brain says "enough". So during the day I tend to isolate food groups. But its the way my stomach has always been.

My mother never could bribe me with pudding, because I never ate it. And during the meal I either ate the vegetables, or the meat, but rarely both together.

She tried to educate me, but failed.

[MyLittleWonders]

Not to totally change the topic (but somewhat to do so ), can someone get us started on the magnesium discussion? I was talking with the owner of my local HFS (who I think must have some background in naturopathy, but maybe just very well read) and she was saying that pregnant/lactating women should be getting at least 1200 mg of calcium (which would mean 600 mg of magnesium as she said it's 2:1) a day; I bought the 1000 mg calcium/500 mg magnesium tabs and told her I'd check how much is in my prenanat vitamin. When I got home, I looked and there is only 200 mg of calcium and only 100 mg of magnisium in them. I added in the calcium I get from raw milk (usually 1-2 cups a day between that and yogurt in a smoothie), and realized that I could take the supplement without problem.

So ... what is it about magnesium that makes it essential? Here's what little I have from the Prescription for Nutritional Healing book:

Originally Posted by pg 30

Magnesium is a vital catalyst in enzyme activity, especially the activity of those enzymes involved in energy production. It also assists in calcium and potassium uptake. A deficiency of magnesium interferes with the transmission of nerve and muscle impulses, causing irritability and nervousness. Supplementing the diet with magnesium can help prevent depression, dizziness, muscle weakness and twitching, and premenstrual syndrom (PMS), and also aids in maintaining the body's proper pH balance and normal body tempurature.

Just reading that alone (the first of a few paragraphs) makes a few things stand out for me personally - depression (have a tendency towards, which would be explained by numerous defeciencies including magnesium), irritability (which could be written off as 6 months pregnant with a 4.5 yo and a 2 yo but still!), muscle twitching (horrible issues, especially in pregnancy with "restless leg syndrome"), and body tempurature (may not necessarily be overall body temp, but I'm always on the cold side, especially this pregnancy).

The woman at the HFS asked how much my ob had recommended/required me to take - I said none. (I'm now with a mw and when I see her next plan on asking her all about all of this - she's also a naturopath.) The only time the calcium/magnesium came up was when I mentioned restless legs affecting my sleeping - and I was recommended to take Tums. : Now if the calcium in Tums actually did anything, it would be different (I take quite a few at night because of horrible pregnancy related acid reflux), but considering there's no magnesium or Vit D (that's the right one right?) in Tums, the body doesn't even have a chance of utilizing the calcium in them. The more I learn, the more I realize they (the medical community) really know nothing about true HEALTH.

Anyways ... was hoping to jumpstart the talk about magnesium. Any takers?

[MyLittleWonders]

Another interesting tidbit about magnesium from the Prescriptions book ...

Originally Posted by pg. 30

It is effective in preventing premature labor and convulsions in pregnant women.

Studies have shown that taking magnesium supplements during pregnancy has a dramatic effect in reducing birth defects. A study reported by the Journal of the American Medical Association reported a 70-percent lower incidence of mental retardation in children of mothers who had taken magnesium supplements during pregnancy. The incidence of cerebral palsy was 90 percent lower.

: Why don't they (the doctors who supposedly read JAMA) tell anyone this??? Why do they say any ol' prenatal is fine and don't worry about anything else unless you want some Tums (which is plastered all over the office). :

[Momtezuma Tuatara]

Originally Posted by Planta

Not necessarily. Do you agree that there is lots of heating going on in the cold regions (even if you prefer cold)? Then why not other measures of immitating tropical life (of course in limited ways)? In fact, eating raw isn't even a tropical attribute, as you exemplified with the inuit eating raw whale.

If you are talking about global warming, that's a whole other topic, and in that respect the natural conclusion to that isn't global warming but what Hammaker and Weaver and Larry Ephron wrote about. If you want to consider the possible geoclimactic reasons for it, read an old book written by climatologist years ago, called "The Sixth Winter" by John Gribben. If he is right, and the monopolist theorists wrong, you better get used to the idea of being an inuit, and pretty fast.

Oh yes, inuits eat raw meat. But they also eat a lot of smoked heat processed and hot cooked dishes as well, and always have.

Who has logic problems here?

You IMO.

You took the example of US eating less grains than other countries and having more problems than those and inferred that the problems are not caused by the grains. Did I say grains are the only cause of health problems?

You inferred that only idiots would eat grains. I pointed out that its the idiots that eat the most grains, but who process them in traditional ways who have the least problems

It is only an example of what effects cooked food can have, but maybe other cooked foods are even worse than grains. So if they are replaced, let's say, by potatoes processed to death and seasoned with elaborate chemical cocktails, the result on health can't be good - do you agree?

I agree that only an idiot would eat potatoes in that way, but I'm assuming that any conformed idiots of that mould wouldn't be reading this thread.

I eat potatoes that I grow myself, which are superb, in the way that is best for me.

My meal last night was Pink Fir potatoes, purple cabbage and runner beans. The potatoes were steamed, and beans lightely steamed and the cabbage lightly steamed.

I know that very well from actually following a raw diet in this imperfect world. It's not an all or nothing thing, you know. People can eat any % of raw and all I'm saying is that the more the better, not that anything under 100% is unacceptable.

If as Jane S says, you've only been doing it for 5 months you know nothing about the long term consequences of it. I did it for 4 and a half years until I hit a brick wall. I sat back very interested and watched one writer after another, likewise have to admit they got it wrong. I was most interested of all when Leslie Kenton admitted that she had it majorly wrong.

You have a new found fanaticism. Does it not occur to you that some of us might have been there done that in another age before you? do you think this is the only time I've ever considered the issue?

Yes, people are remarkable, but they can't yet change their physiology. If we don't agree on this - we can just drop it.

Again, that is your idea. I don't agree that my physiology will work long term on just raw food.

And yes, I wish you would drop it, because your pounding this issue to death is frankly a waste of time which could be put to better use.

What I was talking about is physiological adaptation.

They are physiologically adapted. and by the way, I have never physiologically adapted to the climate in this country. I visibly wilt in summer temperatures and hate it. All I want to do is scuttle off to a sub-antartic island during summer.

And, anyway, why do we concentrate on some few people that live in extreme environments (and actually would do well on a raw diet of their particular region)? What does it have to do with the optimal diet for an average human?

Because you would have it that people shouldn't live in those climates, and if they do, they should only eat raw food.

I am happy to be taught your famous lateral logic. So far I am dissapointed with your teachings on this.

I don't teach logic. Try de Bono. I'm horrified at your trenchant fanaticism and unwillingness to accept that there is any other way to eat than the philosophy you espouse. Go ahead. Do what you feel is right for you, but don't ram it down people's throats.

Please allow people to discuss different fruits, vegetables and their relevant minerals and vitamins in peace.

I really don't know why you are here. AS I said before. This isn't a thread for fanaticism.

Just curious - what cooked food nutrients you can't get any other way?

Well, that would be a pointless question to answer wouldn't it? Here's my bazooka. Please load your ammunition into it so I can have another go at you?

Sorry. I'm not so silly as to bite that hook.

[MyLittleWonders]

Sorry, but here's some more ...

Originally Posted by pg. 30

Possible manifestations of magnesium deficiency include confusion, insomnia, irritability, poor digestion, rapid heartbeat, seizures, and tantrums; often, a magnesium deficiency can be synonymous with diabetes.

So ... I've been told for each pregnancy that insomnia is "normal" - that it's just a pregnancy symptom; same with irritability and poor digestion.

And does anyone else have red flags going up over the diabetes comment? For some reason the GTT (glocuse tolerance test) and the amount of women "diagnosed" with gestational diabetes comes to mind. From that comment, it sounds as if those women might just have magnesium deficiencies, but instead test positive for gd, get put on countless "interventions" and might just end up with a c-section. I guess the gd dx is much more lucrative for the doctor, huh? I wonder how much "extra" they get from recommending Tums for your calcium needs too?

[Momtezuma Tuatara]

Good questions, My Little Wonder.

Most of my friends who have thrown GTT abnormal results, have then gone and had mineral screens done. They were all low on chromium and vanadium, selenium, magnesium and also, B6.

They all tweaked their diet, took out all refined carbohydrates and sugars, increased their protein, changed their fats source from margarine to butter, and only ate fruits and vegetables low on the gycemic index. They all deprived docs of valuable income, and all resolved all metabolic issues.

So there are some people who wake up.

For whatever reason, in my second pregnancy, my baby decided that every night between 1.00 a.m and 3.00 a.m. he would run a marathon inside.

Rather than lie in bed awake, working out what he was doing, I got into a routine of geting up, the minute he got over the go line, and embroidering, until he had had enough.

I think sometimes babies have their patterns and sometimes insomnia, is a result of lack of magnesium.

Many parents who have complained that their children are still pogo sticks late at night altered their diets to make it high in magnesium or supplemented if need be, and their children hit the sack at what used, in the old days, be a relatively normal hour for bed... sort of around 6.30 to 7.30 for littlies....

My youngest however, is a night owl, and never went to sleep before 9.00, and now, midnight like his nightowl mother.

Both pregnancies were different sleepwise for me. The first didn't use the umbilical cord for skipping practice in the middle of the night for a start...

[Momtezuma Tuatara]

Originally Posted by pumpkinsmama

Can I produce enough food to make a difference nutritionally by gardening in a small backyard plot (with proper soil additives) or should I concentrate on purchasing supplements. It would be a huge effort to keep the dog out of it, and a huge PITA. (a family of three +1 dog)

Well, I don't have a dog, but you've seen my garden. What I can grow is limited by the climate and winds here. I grow best... grapes by the ton, apples, elderberries, and in the garden, lettuce, broccoli, parsley, runner beans, dalmation beans, silver beet potatoes, carrots, tomatoes and rhubarb. Other things are a struggle, but I still try. Oh and opium poppies come up all by themselves, in profusion every year. they've done that for 22 years now, and I've still not worked out why...

[Momtezuma Tuatara]

Now, back to the original business of this thread before it got sidetracked.

Magnesium.

Around 50% of the magnesium in the body is found in the bones, and magnesium deficiency world wide, is very common. Women with low bone density have a lower intake of magnesium and lower levels of magnesium in both blood and bones. A recent trial in Israel found supplementing 250 - 750 mg per day for two years stopped bone lost in post menopausal women, whereas untreated controls lost bone density. There are other interesting bone studies but I don't want to go into them all.

However, an Australian study looking and children bone mass density in relation to mothers diet, found that bone density was significantly higher in mothers who had a high intake of magnesium potassium and... fat intake... but total body BMD was most significantly associated with the magnesium intake.

There are varying recommendations for daily intake. Some say 400 mcgs for adult women a day, some 600, but I can't function on less than 1,000, because I'm a mental and metabolic pogo stick.

chemically magnesium is invilved in the activation of at least three hundred different enzymes and body chemicals. It activates the B vitamins and plays a role in protein synthesis, muscle excitability, and energy release. It functions primarily from mitochondria, the energy centres of cells.

Magnesium regulates the absorption of calcium and is crucial to the integrity of the bones and teeth. Magnesium deficiency can lead to bone abnormalities including brittle bones and osteoporosis. The parathyroid gland which also regulates blood calcium levels, also needs magnesium to function normally. It helps control cholesterol levels, and helps convert blood sugar to energy.

Magnesium is also concentrated 18 times greater in the heart muscle than the blood stream, regulates the heart's ability to beat, decreases blood coagulation and acts as a calcium channel blocker. Magnesium relaxes smooth muscles and blood vessels, and uterine contractions and cramps.

Phosphorus is necessary for white nerve cells and grey brain cells, but without magnesium it would have no signals to cunduct along the wires, no nerve messages to tell us when to switch off, as well as on.

The white nerve fibres control the tension in the muscles and determine where you can relax as well as activate.

So how does this translate into people behaviour?

Phosphorus type people who are timed out from head and nervous system overload and on-running function may be in need of magnesium so that the messages to stop with all the action is over, can be relayed to the physical body through the muscles.

Do you keep your emotions tightly under control with surreptitiously clenched hands and tight lips? Is self-control one of your "accomplishments"? Do you need to totally wind down and consciously relax every bit of you before you go to bed?

Do you wake up each morning stiff and aching, with crossed arms, kiked up knees and even eyelids clamped one against the other? Are you almost subconsciously in a state of continual partial muscle contration?

Then you need magnesium.

All athletes do as well.... circus performers, ballet dancers, piano players, people who must over-control muscles in their daily lives are huge magnesium pullers. Even lawyers, and others who also do massive head work, need high levels of magnesium.

Magnesium is also necessary for the "head" aspect of libido (as in "interest" rather than "performance") If you are too tired, and exhausted as most mothers are you can guarantee you are magnesium depleted. And magnesium pulling mothers run out of it by mid day in their breast milk, and then wonder why, by late afternoon, early evening they have crying babies, who aren't getting any magnesium in their afternoon evening milk, and only get a bit in the morning, after the mother got three shut eyes in four shifts over the night.

New mother? Magnesium deprived? Sex? What is that?

Polio victims, down's syndrome children, or children with any spasticity disorder, people who slide under the table after one glass of wine.... all need magnesium adjustment

Husbands who can't think about it, let alone get it up after a glass of beer... not only does alcohol inhibit magnesium function, if you haven't got much of it to begin with, you will cope with even, less alcohol.

supposed RDA's

children 250.

Males 11 - 14 270
15 - 18 years 300 mg
19 and older 350.

IMO, this is for couch potatoes.

Females

11 - 14 280 mg
15 - 18 300 mg
19 and older 280
Lactating women 425.

I think these are WAY too low. Except for semi moribund people.

Deficiency symptoms: muscle weakness, loss of appetitie, nausea, vomiting, diarrhea, fatigue, nervousness and irritability.. more serious symptoms, muscle spasms and seizures. when magnesium is low, blood become saturated with calcium which is often depositted in muscles or kidneys, and can lead to kidney stones.

irregular heartbeat can often be regulated with magnesium (as I have a very sensitive heart, this is usually my first physical sign that I need magnesium. Drop beats, or ectopic beats in the evening result in an instant supplement of 400 mgs.)

substances that increase magnesium supplements: Caffein, phosphorus, sugar, high sodium, thaizide diuretics, and alcohol.

Magnesium supplementation can compete with calcium for uptake and therefore can make a calcium deficiency worse. Therefore, be careful how you do it.

How do I do it?

I have hugely high needs for magnesium because I've always been a physical and mental over exerter. My diet is now magnesium based, and I supplement 400 mgs of dolomite magnesium at mid-day and unless I experience drop beats, that is all. If I experience drop beats I use Magnesium citrate capsules.

My top food sources of Magnesium are 1 cup pawpaw 170 mg, 1 banana (starchy for me, hate ripe bananas) 55 mg, Brazil nuts are 210 mg per 1/3 cup, but I only eat three a day.. 1/3 cup almonds, 135 mg - I eat maybe 12 - 20 almonds a day...

1 cob sweetcorn 60 mgs, 2 tbsps pumpkin seeds (I grind these) 160 mgs... most other vegetables have small amounts of magnesium, as do flour, poride, and wholemeal bread, but I don't eat much of those foods. Buckwheat flour has reasonable levels of magnesium, and I do well on buckwheat crepes...brown rice, blackstrap molasses, backed potatoes avocados, beet greens, seeds walnuts all contain small amounts of magnesium.

Enough time spent here today.

See you tomorrow.

Magnesium ideal is 50% of calcium intake.

[MyLittleWonders]

Oh, I totally understand the sleep issues/insomnia that can come from overly active babies. But to me, when I hear "insomnia" and pregnancy, I think of how many nights are for me - laying in bed, trying to get comfy (gotta factor in the muscle aches and twitches), rolling back and forth, and basically staring at the clock until 2am, and then having a heck of a time falling back asleep each time one awakes. To me, that shouldn't be considered "normal", ifykim. So that is what caught my attention when I started reading the little blurb in my one book.

ETA: Just thought I'd add that my previous prenatal that the ob's office thought was just fine contained no magnesium at all! None. Not one iota. : So, combined with it having no selenium (and countless other important minerals for me and babe), it was deemed just fine and adequate to take. :

[guestmama9911]

:

[Momtezuma Tuatara]

Originally Posted by MyLittleWonders

Just thought I'd add that my previous prenatal that the ob's office thought was just fine contained no magnesium at all! None. Not one iota. : So, combined with it having no selenium (and countless other important minerals for me and babe), it was deemed just fine and adequate to take. :

I wonder how many obs could tell you what magnesium was important for, and how it was used in the body, even in the very brief sense that I did, as above?

[MyLittleWonders]

Here's an interesting article regarding magnesium - it begins about how magnesium sulfate intraveniously can save women with pre-eclapsia and keep them from progressing on towards eclampsia. It also talks about how doctors knew/know it but don't do anything about it, opting instead to use prescription drugs that don't have the same affects.

One question I have is this: is it better to take magnesium by itself, or is it okay to take it with calcium (the calcium/magnesium pills i have right now are 1000mg/500mg). Would raw milk still contain magnesium to help counter/support the intake of calcium? And in terms of calcium, is the calcium in Tums bad (I do take these as I have horrible acid reflux with pregnancy) - does it sit and clog my body or would my body just dump out through urine what it doesn't need?