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#61 of 134 Old 09-14-2004, 01:20 AM
 
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I;m not sure which is worse, drinking from plastic or needlessly filling up landfills with discarded lexan drinking bottles.

I would like to see some peer-reviewed scientific journals that back these claims of plastics toxicity. Not that I think plastic is as non-toxic as glass (what else is?) but that unless you are heating it (cooking, boiling, burning) there just isn't that much stuff liberated.

Scientific Publications - Toxicology


Toxicology is the study of the harmful actions of agents on biological mechanisms. The toxicological effects of bisphenol A are well understood. One of the most extensively tested materials in use today, BPA exhibits toxic effects only at very high exposures.

CARCINOGENICITY
NTP Technical Report on the Carcinogenesis Bioassay of Bisphenol A. National Toxicology Program. 1982. Technical Report Series No. 215. Summary available at: http://ntp-server.niehs.nih.gov/htdo...ies/TR215.html

An Evaluation of the Possible Carcinogenicity of Bisphenol A to Humans. Haighton, L.A., et al. 2002. J. Reg. Toxicol. Pharmacol. 35: 238-254. Abstract available at: http://dx.doi.org/10.1006/rtph.2001.1525

REPRODUCTIVE AND DEVELOPMENTAL
The Developmental Toxicity of Bisphenol A in Rats and Mice. Morrissey, R.E. et al. 1987. Fund. Appl. Toxicol. 8: 571-582. Originally published by Oxford University Press. Full text (984kb, PDF)

Three-Generation Reproductive Toxicity Study of Dietary Bisphenol A in CD Sprague-Dawley Rats. Tyl, R.W., et al. 2002. Toxicological Sciences. 68(1):121-146. Abstract available at: http://dx.doi.org/10.1093/toxsci/68.1.121

Rat Two-Generation Reproductive Toxicity Study of Bisphenol-A. Ema, M. 2001. Reproductive Toxicology. 15(5):505-523. Abstract available at: http://dx.doi.org/10.1016/S0890-6238(01)00160-5

ENDOCRINE TOXICITY

Normal Reproductive Organ Development in CF-1 Mice Following Prenatal Exposure to Bisphenol A. Cagen, S.Z. et al. 1999. Toxicol. Sci. 50:36-44. Full Text (128kb, PDF)

Normal Reproductive Organ Development in Wistar Rats Exposed to Bisphenol A in Drinking Water. Cagen, S.Z. et al. 1999. Regul. Toxicol. Pharmacol. 30(2 Pt 1):130-9. Abstract available at: http://dx.doi.org/10.1006/rtph.1999.1340

PHARMACOKINETICS
The Relative Bioavailability and Metabolism of Bisphenol A in Rats Is Dependent upon the Route of Administration. Pottenger, L.H. et al. 2000. Toxicol. Sci. 54(1):3-18. Abstract available at: http://dx.doi.org/10.1093/toxsci/54.1.3

(this was admittedly from a site with an interest in bisphenol, http://www.bisphenol-a.org/scipub/tox.html but the journals cited are legitimate. Haven't seen anything beyond fear-mongering from the sites claiming "links to damage"... if that is true, then where is their data? Anyone have any links?)

(what really irks me the most about this is I hate to see stuff tossed in the trash & filling up landfills! )

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#62 of 134 Old 09-16-2004, 12:01 PM
 
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Those wonderfully 'natural' Avent bottles are #7 too if I remember correctly. We used these with DS1 for a long long time between nursings. I was horrified!!

I have a bunch of new glass baby bottles that are hard to find if anyone wants them on the trading post.
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#63 of 134 Old 09-19-2004, 04:25 AM
 
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#64 of 134 Old 09-22-2004, 01:41 AM
 
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I am so mad! I could have sworn I read a thread with lots of links here last winter that #7 was best for water. I finally found some and spent about $30 on bottles for the family.

Mommy to Ryah 12, Reanna 11, Parker 6 and Cooper 3 months
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#65 of 134 Old 09-23-2004, 01:40 AM
 
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dh works at a major outdoor sports store here in Portland. They sell Nalgene water bottles there and everyone drinks out of them. They are #7. I had him take some of the info from this thread to work. He asked the 'expert' at his work about the safety of the plastic. The guy didn't seem to worried but then again, he gets all his info from product clinics.

For what its worth....
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#66 of 134 Old 09-26-2004, 02:09 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scoots
I;m not sure which is worse, drinking from plastic or needlessly filling up landfills with discarded lexan drinking bottles.

I would like to see some peer-reviewed scientific journals that back these claims of plastics toxicity. Not that I think plastic is as non-toxic as glass (what else is?) but that unless you are heating it (cooking, boiling, burning) there just isn't that much stuff liberated.

Scientific Publications - Toxicology


Toxicology is the study of the harmful actions of agents on biological mechanisms. The toxicological effects of bisphenol A are well understood. One of the most extensively tested materials in use today, BPA exhibits toxic effects only at very high exposures.

CARCINOGENICITY
NTP Technical Report on the Carcinogenesis Bioassay of Bisphenol A. National Toxicology Program. 1982. Technical Report Series No. 215. Summary available at: http://ntp-server.niehs.nih.gov/htdo...ies/TR215.html

An Evaluation of the Possible Carcinogenicity of Bisphenol A to Humans. Haighton, L.A., et al. 2002. J. Reg. Toxicol. Pharmacol. 35: 238-254. Abstract available at: http://dx.doi.org/10.1006/rtph.2001.1525

REPRODUCTIVE AND DEVELOPMENTAL
The Developmental Toxicity of Bisphenol A in Rats and Mice. Morrissey, R.E. et al. 1987. Fund. Appl. Toxicol. 8: 571-582. Originally published by Oxford University Press. Full text (984kb, PDF)

Three-Generation Reproductive Toxicity Study of Dietary Bisphenol A in CD Sprague-Dawley Rats. Tyl, R.W., et al. 2002. Toxicological Sciences. 68(1):121-146. Abstract available at: http://dx.doi.org/10.1093/toxsci/68.1.121

Rat Two-Generation Reproductive Toxicity Study of Bisphenol-A. Ema, M. 2001. Reproductive Toxicology. 15(5):505-523. Abstract available at: http://dx.doi.org/10.1016/S0890-6238(01)00160-5

ENDOCRINE TOXICITY

Normal Reproductive Organ Development in CF-1 Mice Following Prenatal Exposure to Bisphenol A. Cagen, S.Z. et al. 1999. Toxicol. Sci. 50:36-44. Full Text (128kb, PDF)

Normal Reproductive Organ Development in Wistar Rats Exposed to Bisphenol A in Drinking Water. Cagen, S.Z. et al. 1999. Regul. Toxicol. Pharmacol. 30(2 Pt 1):130-9. Abstract available at: http://dx.doi.org/10.1006/rtph.1999.1340

PHARMACOKINETICS
The Relative Bioavailability and Metabolism of Bisphenol A in Rats Is Dependent upon the Route of Administration. Pottenger, L.H. et al. 2000. Toxicol. Sci. 54(1):3-18. Abstract available at: http://dx.doi.org/10.1093/toxsci/54.1.3

(this was admittedly from a site with an interest in bisphenol, http://www.bisphenol-a.org/scipub/tox.html but the journals cited are legitimate. Haven't seen anything beyond fear-mongering from the sites claiming "links to damage"... if that is true, then where is their data? Anyone have any links?)

(what really irks me the most about this is I hate to see stuff tossed in the trash & filling up landfills! )

After reading through "most" of the posts in this thread...what really is "alarming" to me is that so many take old wives tales or internet myths and BELIEVE them....
The post that I have quoted here is the only one I have seen that actually goes to the root of this issue. DO A TOX SCREEN on the water, food, etc...before it is put into the plastic and then do another screening after...
The only thing that is in the food or drink...is the same thing.

I had a long talk with my dh (he is an envir. engin.)and had him view several of the post here. He was pissed that so many members of MDC would actually believe all that is posted here without doing the research themselves.
I have to say that I agree.
How sad!
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#67 of 134 Old 09-26-2004, 03:05 PM
 
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After Thought:

Excuse me. I'm the husband. I work in environmental toxicology, and I find all the gossip about plastic toxicity alarming.
Haven't you noticed the lack of analytical evidence (lab analysis) supporting these fables?
Are we expected to accept a global conspiracy theory on the part of the plastics manufacturers?
In an effort to quiet some of this nonsense, may I offer this suggestion?


1) Obtain 4 sample jars from a local analytical laboatory. You can find a lab in the phone book under "analytical Laboratories". Tell the lab you want clean glass with Teflon seals.
2) Take a plastic container of your choosing. Fill the container with clean water and let it sit overnight.
3) Take your first sample from the water you initially put in the container.
4) Take the second sample from the container after you let it set at room temperature over night. Now put the container in the freezer.
5) Take the third sample from the container after you have allowed the frozen contents to thaw. Pour this directly into your sample jar.
6) Take the 4th sample from the container after you have microwaved the still sealed container to just below boiling (don't blow it up) and then let it cool back down to room temperature.
7) Keep the samples chilled in your refrigerator to preserve anything that may be in there.
8) take your samples to the lab and tell them you want analysis for any organic contaminants. They will be able to suggest an EPA method(a number like 8240 or 8260) that will test for a wide range of compounds.

A couple of cautions:
keep your container and sample jars closed to minimize outside contamination.
Your results are only as valid as your sampling method. If you're serious, document everything you do. Anyone can fake results.
YOUR RESULTS MUST BE REPEATABLE BY OTHERS TO MEAN ANYTHING.

If you find anything out of the ordinary, you now have a valid starting point for making a case.
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#68 of 134 Old 09-26-2004, 04:07 PM
 
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Jackie's husband -- good idea. I've worked with a local lab on water testing, so I may look into this before worrying too much about the plastic in my freezer. I have no idea if the freezing process would cause nasties to leach from the plastics. I don't really care about the effects of microwaving since I wouldn't put anything of any value into a microwave.

And generally, while appreciate the value of scientific studies, I am not going to wait around ingesting environmental toxins until there is sufficient environmental evidence that it is making me sick. So for a long time I have not used plastic wrap and aluminum foil. And, well, there are a whole lot of things we do around this house that would be seen as driven by gossip. It's just called natural living. Anyhoo, I appreciate your perspective and would be very curious to here about anybody else's lab results, but I am not going to go plastic crazy in the meantime thinking that everything is A-OK.

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#69 of 134 Old 09-27-2004, 03:01 PM
 
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Here's a link to CHECs views on certain toxic plastic.....cling wrap and PVCs

http://www.checnet.org/healthehouse/...sp?Main_ID=188

Some plastic is safe to use, some not. I too am not going to wait around while they do tests on the safe ones.....I prefer NOT to use plastic for food. Whatever your views on whether its safe......I simply dont like the taste of plastic in my drinking water or food, and prefer to use glass for food storage.
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#70 of 134 Old 09-27-2004, 07:05 PM
 
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Wow. Well, I agree that food and drink just do NOT taste as good coming from plastic. Period. No studies will change that! I agree with the others -- I am not going to wait around to find out which plastics the FDA are going to disaprove of in 20 years. On the otherhand, I am not removing ALL the plastic from my home. DD has SOME plastic toys (no teethers) and we do have some #5 food storage containers, I try not to use them --again, prefering the way food tastes when it is stored in glass much better, and we only use plastic sippies when we are out of the house for an extended period.

I have a question for the envioronmental engineer -- why is there an expiration date on water bottles, if it is perfectly safe to store water in them? Seriously. I have wondered this for a long time. THese threads lead me to believe that it was the "plastic" that was expiring, not the water. I'd like to hear your take.

I appreciate hearing lots of different angles on this (and all) topics on here. So, I hope people don't get too bent out of shape by how different some opinions are. Keep 'em coming, I say!
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#71 of 134 Old 09-27-2004, 09:31 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rainsmom
I simply dont like the taste of plastic in my drinking water or food, and prefer to use glass for food storage.

Agreed!!!
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#72 of 134 Old 10-11-2004, 09:21 PM
 
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These are our current favorites when we have to use a sippy:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gerber Customer Service
Gerber Fun Grips Spill Proof Cups are made of the following materials:

Lid - Polyethylene #2
Cup - Polypropylene #5
Valve - Polypropylene w/silicone valve
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#73 of 134 Old 11-02-2004, 01:01 PM
 
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Anyone want in on a Sigg Co OP??? Come on over to the Co ops forum on the Trading post

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#74 of 134 Old 11-18-2004, 10:33 PM
 
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yes but you can't deny that something from the plastic doesn't leech into the water,right? here in the desert anytime plastic water bottles sit in the sun for any amount of time they sometimes taste like plastic.I've noticed this with the clear plastic bottles and whiteish gallons..where can I learn about the bottle #'s btw?

how much do you have to pay to do the analytical test or is it free? (I told DH about it and he wants to try it now just out of curiosity )

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#75 of 134 Old 02-07-2005, 01:56 PM
 
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Bump








I think I killed this thread. :

Blissful Mama to DD-(5), DS-(6) and someone new due in November!
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#76 of 134 Old 02-07-2005, 03:16 PM
 
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i think i heard the test is 50.00 bucks, do you have an extension service or a university near you?
they could do the tests.
no you didnt kill the thread.
maya

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#77 of 134 Old 02-08-2005, 04:13 PM
 
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I am SO confused now! I swear the display on the Nalgene bottles said they don't leach and don't absorb. I thought that was why they were everywhere, was because they were better than other water bottles?
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#78 of 134 Old 02-09-2005, 11:36 PM
 
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I don't like to use anything synthetic, and have found that Crate & Barrel has a nice assortment of glass containers to use as an alternative to plastic. There is one brand, made in the USA, that is all glass- like old school refrigerator glass. I have a set of these and love them. Also a big fan of the pyrex containers for travelling or for dh's lunches.
Sur la Table has some wonderful glass pitchers into which I decant our juices, milk, and creamer to get them out of their cartons and plastic bottles. They're not very expensive, either, which is a bonus.
If anyone has had good luck with glass baby bottles, I'd love to know. They still carried them at babies'r'us (as much as I despise shopping there) when I was pg with ds.
As for the Nalgene bottles, I thought that the information about their toxicity, at least in the article I read, was a bit inconclusive and not very scientific. In the study I read, the bottles were subjected to extreme temperatures and harsh detergents which would not be encountered under "normal" circumstances. I still have mine (we've been through so much together!), but haven't used them much since I began learning about this stuff.

so many roads to ease my soul...

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#79 of 134 Old 02-10-2005, 09:41 AM
 
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I found some curity and evenflo glass baby bottles at a thrift store, but they don't have nipples or rings. They're much narrower than my avente bottles, so I can't use those ones. Where can I find rings and nipples to fit?
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#80 of 134 Old 02-19-2005, 12:39 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rainsmom
Here's a link to CHECs views on certain toxic plastic.....cling wrap and PVCs

http://www.checnet.org/healthehouse/...sp?Main_ID=188

Some plastic is safe to use, some not. I too am not going to wait around while they do tests on the safe ones.....I prefer NOT to use plastic for food. Whatever your views on whether its safe......I simply dont like the taste of plastic in my drinking water or food, and prefer to use glass for food storage.
No offense, but CHEC is hardly taking an unbiased objective approach, from their own page:

Quote:
Our ultimate goal is to eliminate children's exposure to man-made toxic substances by ensuring everyone’s right-to-know what is in their air, food, water and commercial products. We are working to achieve this goal through increased scientific research, government policies which are more protective of children, and educating and mobilizing individuals — like you — around the country.
http://www.checnet.org/about_main.asp

Read it again: "Our ultimate goal is to eliminate children's exposure to man-made toxic substances..."

Who wouldn't want to eliminate exposure to toxic substances?

But what is their criteria for toxicity? Where are their tests? Where is their data? (Links to other sites espousing the same beliefs without data are not valid references)

The tests suggested by another member above are spot-on. See if the container adds anything, if not, it's safe. Simple.

I'm as much for natural living as the next person, but when I see fears being whipped up without independently verifiable data, I get annoyed, and when I see it being done using unspecified menaces to our kids as their raison d'etre, I get really really annoyed.

They are even against recycling: http://www.checnet.org/healthehouse/...sp?Main_ID=187

This isn't common sense, this is "All plastics are bad, period" and it's junk science (the goal is clearly to eliminate plastics usage altogether, not use it sensibly)

Common sense says you don't store excessively acidic products in plastic, you don't cook in plastic, and you watch which plastics you use for storage. Common sense also says that heat & sunlight increase the degradation of plastics (nearly all materials, actually) so don't put something in a plastic container and let it sit out in the sun for 6 months and expect it to taste good.


Ask any chemist what they use in their labs, certainly glass is used, but also Nalgene and all sorts of other plastics (which would not be used if they leached into everything, it would mess up the experiments)

I am guessing of course that all the people who are worried about plastic water bottles either distill their own water on-site or use advanced filtration to remove every trace of whatever material the pipes leading to your faucet are made of.

I use glass as much as possible, but have no qulams whatsoever about using a Lexan water bottle when hiking, more immediate danger in broken glass than some infinitesimal amount of chemicals getting into water. Like everything else, just apply a little common sense.

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#81 of 134 Old 02-19-2005, 12:53 PM
 
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I hear you... but what does CHEC have to gain? The industry won't do the tests or take some of these plastics off the market.

It won't kill us to not use (some or all, or greatly reduce their use) plastic and it may help. The CHEC has been very helpful to me in picking the type of plastic to avoid and maybe compromising on others which have been shown to leach less chemicals into their contents.
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#82 of 134 Old 02-21-2005, 06:44 PM
 
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even at natural stores, cheese is always wrapped in plastic - how do we get around that?!?

mona
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#83 of 134 Old 02-21-2005, 07:01 PM
 
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what ive done in the past is remove the cheese from the plastic and place it in a unbleached wax paper bag and then place that into a zip lock type bag to keep it fresh. oh and u can cut off a thin layer of the cheese all around that was touching the plastic.
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#84 of 134 Old 02-21-2005, 07:30 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by avakitty
what ive done in the past is remove the cheese from the plastic and place it in a unbleached wax paper bag and then place that into a zip lock type bag to keep it fresh. oh and u can cut off a thin layer of the cheese all around that was touching the plastic.

I do the exact same thing...those bags are great to have!

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#85 of 134 Old 02-21-2005, 08:05 PM
 
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I have a question--I bought some Tupperware containers that are supposed to be safe to go from freezer to microwave. Since those containers are *specifically* for that purpose, would they be safe to use? I'm not giving up plastic, not with 4 kids who have klutzy genes on both sides of the family, but I don't combine microwave and plastic. I am wondering if those containers really are okay to use in the microwave, though. What's the consensus?

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#86 of 134 Old 02-22-2005, 05:48 AM - Thread Starter
 
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I think that somewhere I read that no plastic, of any kind, should be heated. Whether or not you use the oven or the microwave.

Did anyone else read that, or am I just insane?
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#87 of 134 Old 02-22-2005, 03:05 PM
 
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Quote:
#3: PVC or V (Polyvinyl Chloride)
Used in: pipes shower curtains vinyl dashboards & car seats
Meat wraps baby bottle nipples cling wraps (esp. commercial)
Shrink wrap some “soft” bottles cooking oil bottles
Coffee containers clear medical tubing
Recycled into: n/a
Cautions: one of the worst types of plastic, banned in some countries,
Known endocrine disruptor, known carcinogen, can leach pthalates,
DO NOT USE TO STORE OR FREEZE BREASTMILK!
Is the "food saver" plastic under this list? I noticed it said meat wraps. What meat wraps are we talking about? I always buy meat from the butcher in a shrink wrap to freeze right away (we get a discount this way).

Same with the org chicken we get. The chicken is shrinkwrapped, frozen right away and delivered to our door.
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#88 of 134 Old 02-28-2005, 06:06 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pattyla
Also, what do you use for your teething (but not teeth yet) baby? Mine loves the cold plastic teething rings I put in the fridge.

I have endometriosis and plastics have been linked and I swore I wouldn't give my dd plastic to chew on but now she is here and I don't know what else to do... I can't let her suffer...
I'm not all the way thru the thread, so perhaps someone else has given you a good solution. I just froze a washcloth. Dip it in water, squeeze it out, then leave it in a dish to freeze. Worked like a charm.
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#89 of 134 Old 03-01-2005, 02:35 AM
 
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-sigh- ignorance is bliss...now I'm gonna have to get rid of alot o' crap...
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i took dried papaya and soaked have the strip of ti in waster then froze it. the have that was wet got frozen and the have that was left dried was soft and nice. ian crewed on the frozen half.
thanks bellafate for this, it was her suggestion.
maya

Visit the Holiday Helper thread and join in on the giving and fun! Loving and working with the plants. I have a store! or two!
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